Morgan Rochelle Cain Wake Forest: Voices That Tell of a Faith Community 2 Wake Forest: Voices That Tell of a Faith Community Morgan Cain 2008 3 Wake Forest Baptist Church The original Wake Forest Baptist Church was burned, but this church was rebuilt on the same ground as the original. The foundation stone is dated 1900. The Church land was given by the Cowan Family. Wake Forest Pentecostal Holiness Church The Pentecostal Holiness Church in Wake Forest was built following the splitting of the original Baptist congregation. The Holiness congregation built this church approximately 1920. The Church land was given by Howard Sherman. New Pentecostal United Holy Church of Wake Forest After growing out of their small building, the same Holiness congregation built this new church in 1982 down the road from the original Holiness church. 4 Table of Contents Preface…………………………………………………………………………………………......6 Notes on Transcription…………………………………………………………………………....8 Introduction………………………………………………………….............................................9 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter One: From Whitethorne to Wake Forest……………………………………. 13 Chapter Two: The Birth of a Church………………………………...............................18 Chapter Three: The Naming & Building of a Community …………………………… 24 Chapter Four: The Feud & Flames That Split a Church………………………………. 32 Chapter Five: A Relationship Out of the Ashes……………………………………….. 36 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Six: New Life………………………………………………................................42 Chapter Seven: Baptism & Communion ………………………………………………..43 Chapter Eight: Weddings ………………………………………………………………. 47 Chapter Nine: Music, Prayer & Sundays ………………………………………………..48 Chapter Ten: Death, Funerals & Burial ……………………………................................54 III. Fellowship, Family & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Eleven: Family, Children & Parenting in Wake Forest………………………..59 Chapter Twelve: Community Celebrations & Holidays…………………………….......64 Chapter Thirteen: Racial Harmony………………………………………………………70 Chapter Fourteen: Elders We Cherish …………………………………………………..75 IV. The Wake Forest Churches Chapter Fifteen: The Baptist Church…………………………………………………......84 Chapter Sixteen: The Holiness Church…………………………………………………..100 V. Looking Back & Looking Ahead Chapter Seventeen: Church, Glue That Holds The Community In Place……………...112 Chapter Eighteen: The Value of Wake Forest’s History………………………………...115 Chapter Nineteen: The Future of Wake Forest ………………………………………….119 Work Cited ………………………………………………………………………………………...123 Appendixes Appendix A: Transcriptions: 1) Clarence Page…………………………………………………………………………...125 2) Sonny Johnson…………………………………………………………………………..131 3) Frank Bannister…………………………………………………………………………144 4) Oscar Sherman…………………………………………………………………………. 155 5) Henry Eaves……………………………………………………………………………..160 6) Carolyn Spraggins……………………………………………………………………….179 7) William Brown………………………………………………………………………….187 8) Esther Jones…………………………………………………………………………...... 197 9) James Sherman…………………………………………………………………………..210 10) Eyvonne Spencer……………………………………………………………………….219 11) Benzena Eaves………………………………………………………………………….235 12) Howard & Jean Eaves…………………………………………………………………..243 13) Hazel Choate & Catherine Surface…………………………………………………….250 14) Jimmie & Betty Price..………………………………………………………………….256 15) Wake Forest Community Day, 1982: Arnold & Esther Jones………………………...266 Appendix B John Nicolay Report on Wake Forest, 1983……………………………………………….270 Appendix C Patricia Johnson Selections from Kentland At Whitethorne, Walpa Publishing,1995….301 Appendix D Founders Day Program, 2004………………………………………………………………315 Appendix E 5 Land Deeds: Montgomery County Courthouse, Christiansburg, Virginia 1) 1928, Wake Forest Baptist Church land deed……………………………………….….316 2) 1871 African Methodist Episcopal Church land deed………………………………….317 3) 1921, Nonsectarian (later the Holiness) Church land deed…………………………….319 Appendix F Selection of Ophelia Bolland’s transcribed interview with Clyde Kessler, 1982………...320 Appendix G Consent forms for participants interviewed by Morgan Cain…………………………….322 6 Preface Geographical communities are sacred places. They offer us a sense of place, family, belonging, identity, origin, tradition, myth, and pride. Our communities are the foundations from which we step out. Communities are the roots to which we return. Communities are the nests where stories are living; stories that retell fond memories, provoke old emotions, rekindle lost elders, spur-up past anger, recap good laughs, remember better times, remember worse times, and revive our history. Stories keep the very community alive. Stories are the breath of life into a community and the backbone of local heritage. Certainly communities are sacred places, but stories are the sacred texts. Together, the two make us who and what we are. The Wake Forest community in Montgomery County, Virginia, is one rich with stories, wealthy with memories, and stocked with traditions. I was privileged to have heard and seen such stories with ears and eyes of someone not from Wake Forest. I come from my own community, where the stories and history are also rich. Thus, I cannot interpret or tell the stories of Wake Forest for myself; I have simply been a part of a project which allows Wake Forest to tell its own story. Each page is a voice and memory that help keep the community of Wake Forest alive. This publication is comprised of the recollections from Wake Forest community members and a few individuals with close connections to Wake Forest. While the first section gives a chronological history of religion, church life, and faith-based traditions, the second section is a series of significant appendixes that also richly add to Wake Forest scholarship. I began college in the fall of 2006 at Virginia Tech, not far from my Floyd County home. My scholarship within the Appalachian Studies Program allowed me to be involved in the Community Heritage Project in the fall of 2006. This course involved a group of students interacting in community life in northwest Montgomery County, Virginia, with the goal of enhancing community assets. We were led by Dr. Anita Puckett, Director of the Appalachian Studies Program, and Reverend Jimmie Price, Montgomery County resident, minister of a local independent church, and president of the Montgomery County Coal Miners Association. Although fellow students explored the topics of local graveyards and foodways, my particular responsibilities during our project included focusing on religion in Northwest Montgomery County. During this project, I was able to meet and interview a few Wake Forest locals. What little I knew about Wake Forest intrigued me. I wanted to know more about the community, particularly the religious folkways and history. Therefore, when the fall course ended, I began an undergraduate research project that allowed me to focus on religion in the Wake Forest Community with Dr. Anita Puckett as my advisor. Since then, I have had the privilege of being involved in worship, interviews, and community events in Wake Forest. There is little I could say to adequately express what such involvement in Wake Forest has meant to me. I am filled with gratitude. I am forever grateful to the community members who opened their homes, churches, minds, and hearts to me while working on this research project. Not only have I been given an enlightening opportunity to witness community life outside my own, I have had the opportunity to help increase the available scholarship pertaining to African American communities in Appalachia—of which there is currently a very limited amount. Each speaker, preserved through recorded tapes and transcriptions, help tell a part of Appalachian history that has yet to be told. However, my work has only skimmed the surface. My research has focused on religion and the faith-community of Wake Forest, but there are countless other subjects and stories just waiting to be told and discovered. Furthermore, my research was only able to capture the stories and interviews of a limited number of community members. I apologize for not being able to conduct more interviews and give others the opportunity to share their experience and knowledge of Wake Forest. My wish is that others will follow, especially within Wake Forest, with the initiative to make sure that no one and no story are left unheard and undocumented. I would like to extend a special thank you to several contributors, supporters, friends, and family members. To begin, thank you to the entire community of Wake Forest for your consistent love and support. Thank you to Mrs. Esther Jones for acting as my foundation stone from the very beginning of my Wake Forest research. Thank you to Henry and Benzena Eaves for taking me under your wings and 7 endorsing me with your good name. Thank you to Mr. and Mrs. Spraggins, William Brown, James Sherman, Eyvonne Spencer, Howard & Jean Eaves, Carmen Jones-Clad, John Nicolay, Clyde Kessler, Hazel Choate, Kathern Surface, Betty Price, and Walpa Publishing. Thank you to Daniel Grim, Laura and Chuck Cain, and Sierra Coartney for your reliable patience and inspiration. Much appreciation is owed for Mackenzie D’Assis for your assistance and willingness to contribute time toward this publication. Thank you to the Appalachian Regional Commission for the direction and concern to enhance community assets in Appalachia. Thank you to Virginia Tech’s Undergraduate Research Institute, Office of Multicultural Affairs, and Office of Academic Enrichment for the financial support to make this research possible. Thank you to the University Honors of Virginia Tech for the opportunity to conduct Honors Undergraduate Research during my collegiate studies. An utmost thank you to Dr. Anita Puckett and Reverend Jimmie Lee Price for your time, trust, support, and enlightenment during my research. The personal and working relationships we have built in the last two years have richly impacted my character and added much joy to my life. I am forever grateful to you. My deepest apologies go out to anyone whose names or information may be misprinted. It was my intention to document only what I was told, in the manner it was said and communicated. In doing so, the goal was to have an oral history collection and religiously-focused publication that allowed the community of Wake Forest to tell their own stories and unique recollections in their own voices. I often retreat back to the original goal of the Community Heritage Project from 2006 of enhancing community assets; I’m reminded of how stories about community and heritage are truly an asset to communities such as Wake Forest. I trust that I have maintained the goal by helping enhance that asset within Wake Forest. My only subsequent goal is to see the stories continue to be told, recorded, valued, and recycled through the generations of Wake Forest Community members to come. 8 Notes on Transcription The transcriptions located in Appendix A attempt to capture the interviewee’s speech as close to the spoken word as possible without making the text unreadable because of too many specialized symbols or notations. When a speaker changes subject mid-sentence, the self-interruption is indicated with a “—” symbol. Time checks are included on the left margin in order to alleviate the stress of locating certain dialog on the recorded tapes. Italicized lettering and brackets are used to indicate the subject matter, much of which is not pertaining to religion, but is indicated in order to show other topics included within the interview. Please use the following transcription code for further instruction on how to best read the transcribed materials. Transcription Code: Interviewer= Individual conducting and recording the interview. Interviewee= Individual participant being interviewed. Note Preparer= Individual responsible for transcribing interview, adhering to a transcription pattern. Setting of Interview= Description of location and atmosphere in which the interview was conducted, if known. Notes= Brief summary of the interviewee and his or her background related to Wake Forest, if known. “[2:39]” = An example of a time check located in the left margin. This defines at what time certain dialog occurred and increases accessibility for those listening through tapes for a particular text. {Unclear} = Any italicized, bracketed information serve the purpose of 1) Informing the reader of background information needed in order to understand a statement, 2) Clarify a subject matter that either the interviewee or interviewer is discussing, 3) Distinguish which Wake Forest church a interviewee or the interviewer is referencing, or 4) Communicate to the reader that the dialog is {unclear} due to the compromised quality of the recording, and/or some interference at the setting that compromised sound quality of recording. “…”= Indicates that dialog before and after dotted area has not been included, perhaps to increase clarity of statement or remove unclear dialog that resulted from a poor recording quality. “—”= Indicates a self interruption (a mid-sentence change in subject-matter or sentence flow), or dialog that was halted due to the interruption from an interviewer or interviewee. 9 Introduction Wake Forest has deep roots in the mountains of northwest Montgomery County. The community was founded in the late 1860’s, following the Civil War and emancipation of slaves from nearby Kentland, also known as Whitethorne, Plantation. Ex-slaves from Kentland Plantation developed and settled in the location now known as Wake Forest (Sherman, Oscar). The community grew and prospered during the early Twentieth Century as a self-sufficient African American community. Locally, some worked as barbers, ministers, seamstresses, mailmen, tanners, morticians, coalminers, midwives, builders, store-owners, and school teachers at the Wake Forest School. Religion has always had a prominent place in the community; the church was one of the first non-residential structures ever built in Wake Forest. Religious leaders and church deacons consistently served as strong community figures. Each of them helped define the architecture of Wake Forest’s character and distinguished heritage. Even outside of Wake Forest, the distinction of faith and religious traditions are a marked trait that others identity with the Wake Forest landscapes and locals (Price, Jimmie). Since the mid Twentieth Century and the closing of Big Vain Coal Mine, the population of Wake Forest natives continues to decrease. Although there has been an influx of new community members, the families who were predominant in the original community have dissipated more each decade (Eaves, Henry). This trend along with the inevitable passing of current elders brings attention to the risk of losing stories and history of an independent African American Appalachian community, unless both their stories and heritage continue to be told, recorded, and preserved. Wake Forest has immense significance within the broader Appalachian context as well. African Americans greatly shaped the Appalachian region, both socially and economically. However, the presence of African Americans in Appalachian Studies has been referred to as the “black invisibility” factor. Because Appalachian counties did not have high slave populations as did the Deep South, the presence of blacks in Appalachia has often been discounted. In actuality, there were roughly 175,000 African Americans living in Appalachia in 1860. In recent years, more attention has been brought to African American existence in the region, in hopes to communicate how “African Americans influenced the region’s economy, society, and politics in significant ways, both before and after the Civil War” (Inscoe, 34). This attention has helped dispute long-standing ideologies that Appalachia is composed of culturally and racially pure, white, Anglo-Saxon settlers alone (Inscoe, 34). While geographical communities and community ideology are central themes within Appalachian scholarship and intrinsic Appalachian identities, African American communities such as Wake Forest have not found a prominent place within such community-centered studies. To contribute to the available scholarship on the existence and significance of African Americans and African American communities in Appalachian, this publication has allowed Wake Forest locals to communicate their experience and community life in an African American community in Northwest, Montgomery County, Virginia, with recollections and stories dating from the 1850’s to the current day. The information for this publication was derived from interviews recorded on a tape recorder or a digital voice recorder, which were transcribed at a later time. It is comprised of the recollections of Wake Forest community members and a few individuals with close connections to Wake Forest. This publication is broken into two primary sections: first, a chronological history of religion, church life, and faith-based traditions in Wake Forest, followed by a series of significant appendixes. The chapters are arranged in five segments. Within the first segment, chapters one through five commence with recollections of Kentland Plantation and lead into the development of the Wake Forest community. These chapters include recollections of the naming and building of the church and community, followed by memories of the congregational split from the original Baptist Church. Chapter Five concludes the first segment with recollections that tell of rekindled unity in Wake Forest in the years following the church’s split. The second segment is filled with recollections of church-life and religious traditions in Wake Forest including: new life, baptism, communion, weddings, music, prayer, Sundays, death, funerals, and burials. 10 The third segment relates to fellowship, family, and heritage of Wake Forest’s community of believers. Chapters eleven through fourteen in this segment include recollections of parenting, community celebrations, holidays, racial harmony, and elders. Chapter fourteen is an entire chapter dedicated to recollections that honor Wake Forest elders. Chapters Fifteen and Sixteen, in the fourth segment, include recollections of the Wake Forest Churches, including the early history of the Baptist and Pentecostal Churches in Wake Forest. The final segment concludes recollections of the Wake Forest of yesteryear and thoughts about the future of the community. Chapter Sixteen addresses religion as a foundation of community-life in Wake Forest. Chapter Seventeen dotes on the importance of history and protecting one’s heritage. To conclude the recollection chapters, Chapter Eighteen compiles the foresight others have toward Wake Forest’s history. The chapters are organized according to topic and a time period, rather than by the flow of the interviewees’ narratives. Consequently, the order of someone’s speech is occasionally repositioned in the chapter sections to fit into a chronological pattern. Additionally, self-interruptions are often eliminated for increased clarity. Therefore, dialog that was actually said minuets later in an interview may have been moved to best fit the subject matter being described. Appendix A, however, transcribes the true order in which stories were told. Some stories and historical interpretations on a certain subject differ from speaker to speaker. This is simply part of the richness of an oral history project and evidence of the importance of having numerous speakers tell the story of a community, rather than one community member. The story of a community is very much like a quilt with many different patches, sown together to create a beautiful work of art. The stories of Wake Forest are a beautiful patchwork and each telling is a unique piece of the quilt. Appendix A includes interview transcriptions from all nineteen speakers who are included in the recollection chapters. The interviews are not full transcriptions of the interviews, rather, just selections regarding family lineage, church life, and religious traditions. The recorded tapes and CDs of each interview are filled with stories and history pertaining to a wide variety of subjects, not exclusive to religion. I encourage that those tapes be valued and utilized as a fine piece of local heritage and a noteworthy oral history collection. Appendix B is a report written in 1983 by John Nicolay in conjunction with the Richard Montgomery Foundation and Virginia Foundation for the Humanities and Public Policy, in Charlottesville, Virginia. His report and research was strongly influenced by the interviews held with multiple Wake Forest residents in 1982. Clyde Kessler and Laura Sharp were two individuals who assisted in the interviewing and transcribing process in the early 1980’s. The Nicolay File and 1982 interviews have been in the Virginia Tech Special Collections Department of the Library since the 1980’s when they were donated to Virginia Tech by Mr. John Nicolay. When I stumbled across this file and the 1982 tapes, I was overjoyed. Not only was the Nicolay report a valuable piece of information in my research, but the tapes are priceless as they contain many interviews with Wake Forest community members who are now deceased. Tapes of that age, however, are at risk of destruction due to film oxidation and overuse. Therefore, I spent the fall semester of 2007 digitizing these tapes in order to preserve the tapes and have them accessible on CDs. The CDs have been added to the Specials Collections Department at Virginia Tech. I also transcribed those interviews that were relevant for this research on Wake Forest religious history. These interviews appear in the chapters and Appendix B in which the names John Nicolay and Clyde Kessler will appear. Specific names of these interviewees are as follow: Clarence Page, Sonny Johnson, Frank Bannister, Oscar Sherman, Arnold Eaves, Esther Jones, and Ophelia Bolland. Appendix C consists of selections from Patricia Johnson’s book, Kentland At Whitethorn, published in 1995 by Walpa Publishing. Her book includes descriptions of slavery at Kentland (Whitethorne), the building of Wake Forest’s church and community, as well as family names of ex-slaves. The interviews and research for this book came largely from family descendents of the Kent family. 11 Appendix D is a Founders’ Day Program from 2004, written by Benzena Eaves, a long-time resident of Wake Forest. Appendix E is the land deed for Wake Forest Baptist Church from Montgomery County Courthouse. Appendix F is a two-page selection of Ophelia Bolland’s transcribed interview with Clyde Kessler, 1982. This interview was part of the Nicolay file; however, the interview tape was not in the file, only the typed interview transcription. I used two pages of the typed interview transcription regarding Reverend Shadd. Appendix G consists of the consent forms for participants interviewed by me, Morgan Cain, between the fall of 2006 and the spring of 2008. Those interviews conducted by John Nicolay and Clyde Kessler were a donation to Special Collection at Virginia Tech’s Library and require no consent forms. Morgan Rochelle Cain Virginia Polytechnic Institute Undergraduate Researcher, 2006-2008 12 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter One: From Whitethorne to Wake Forest Chapter Two: The Birth of a Church Chapter Three: The Naming & Building of a Community Chapter Four: The Feud & Flames That Split a Church Chapter Five: A Relationship Out of the Ashes 13 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter One: From Whitethorne to Wake Forest Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Jimmie Price: “Slaves at Kentland went to a Presbyterian Church at Parrot or Bell Spring over at Pulaski County across the river. And there was a slave balcony in that church. Now that was customary that the owners took the slaves to church with them. Sometimes there’d be an intenerate slave or free Black minister would come and preach to the slaves on the plantation. But uh, they were, they were—religion and Christianity was stressed to slaves partially to keep them at peace and not have them have insurrections and be violent and escaping and all that. I mean that was a tool—unfair as it was, but it was—the people at Wake Forest tell me now, that “That was good, because we came to know Jesus Christ. See the slaves initiated a lot of the shouting, and loud singing, and hand clapping, and rejoicing because they, they had to celebrate a freedom of spirit, not having a freedom of body or social life. They were exuberant and they shouted and danced and clapped their hands and patted their feet. And so that, that had an influence on the early Methodists, and Pentecostals, and even Baptists were shouting. There’s a song about shouting Methodists and ah, praying Baptists and all that. And ah, so the, the Blacks and Pentecostals developed this exuberant—and Baptists, it wasn’t, it’s not just restricted to denominations, but the less-structured, more joyful type worship was adopted by Pentecostals and being influenced by African Americans.” Morgan Cain: “Well when they were freed, where did they worship?” Jimmie Price: “They went down there, started their own a combination school and church and the plantation owner gave them land and helped to build a place of worship and schoolhouse. I’m assuming that they had to have like itinerate ministers. They had to been exposed to the Baptist faith early on cause when they became able to choose, being freed, they—the majority chose to be Baptist. They didn’t choose the James Randall Kent like Presbyterian—one was, some was Presbyterian some were Episcopalian. They didn’t choose that, they chose Baptist or Pentecostal.” Morgan Cain: “Who was the owner?” Jimmie Price: “It was, the owner was James Randal Kent from ah—Kentland was named for him. Especially one of his two of his daughters were real kindly to the freed slaves and helped them get established in the life of freedom. And ah, there’s a deed for that little place and a church. And they said it was for the exclusive use of the, of the ‘negro’ people.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 14 Henry Eaves: “My understanding is most of the descendents came from that plantation, down at Whitethorne. Some parts of where I’ve read, that history told us that, how this area was developed. And this area was developed out of necessity. Really, it was after they ended the war when the Blacks was freed, they chose this area—all the plantation owners chose this area before selling. And the reason they chose this area, is where they combined all the blacks off their plantation to this area, was because they needed someone to work the farms and the plantation. The owners of the plantation needed someone to work the farm and the Blacks needed to make a living.” Morgan Cain: “Was this something your dad talked about too?” Henry Eaves: “Yeah, my dad, just about everybody here talks about it. We’ve had a history like through our church. One woman that was, there was a lady named Margaret Cowan; she was an overseer of the plantation at the end of the war.” Morgan Cain: “Margaret Cowan?” Henry Eaves: “Yeah, and it’s pretty well documented in history that this is what happened. She was controller of the plantation and evidentially she was a very powerful woman. But she lived down in Whitethorne area. But after the end of the war, she sort of became the overseer. She was overseer of most of the Blacks because most of them came off the plantation and she looked out for them. So that, through this process, it was made. I don’t know if anyone ever researched the history of that lady at all. But as far as I’m concerned, the woman had to have been very bright. Because she laid aside land, that couldn’t be touched for cemeteries, recreations. She donated land for churches, things like that.” Morgan Cain: “So it’s your understanding that it was Margaret Cowan?” Henry Eaves: “Right.” Morgan Cain: “Um, I’ve seen some different places where it was Elizabeth Kent who gave land a little bit down the road to some of her ex-slaves. And then I’ve also seen documented that it was Margaret’s husband Kernel—or Major Cowan that gave land. But there’s some discrepancy there, that maybe he wasn’t a kind man at all and he had nothing to do with the giving of land.” Henry Eaves: “Yeah. Well I don’t know. I’ve never heard or seen where she gave the land. Although, it has been documented that the land for the church, which is the little church we have up here {Baptist Church}, she was the overseer of that and all the rest of the land here in Wake Forest. It seemed like all the men that was Kents. A book that I have says all of them was away fighting during the Civil War. So they left the controlling of the plantation mostly to I guess the women or whatever as overseer. And this was where Margaret Cowan came in. She was the overseer of Kentland Farm. And I’ve read in a book, research book, that Kentland farm—a lot of people don’t realize how big Kentland farm was, but Kentland farm was a land corporation, and it covered five different states. It was huge. And um, some of the places they had—I would guess the people are still here, in this community, the descendents of them was from the plantation where they became carpenters, blacksmiths, brick masons or whatever, because that’s what they did on the plantation.” 15 Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Did your grandma ever tell you about the kind of work she had to do when she was a slave?” Frank Bannister: “No, she was, she didn’t—she was known as one of the house folk.” Clyde Kessler: “And what kind of duties did she have as one of the house folk?” Frank Bannister: “Well you see they would…she was training for a cook and she kept in the kitchen, her mother was a cook.” Clyde Kessler: “Her mother was a cook?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah.” Clyde Kessler: “You know what her name was? It’d be your great grandmother.” Frank Bannister: “Caroline.” Clyde Kessler: “Oh yeah, her name was on the list: Caroline Palmer, on the list. She was a cook?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah, she was Kent’s cook.” Clyde Kessler: “How did—was Kent pretty fair with his—the slaves?” Frank Bannister: “Oh, I’d say he was.” Clyde Kessler: “Considering what slavery was anyway.” Frank Bannister: “It seemed that they were well fed, well clothed.” Clyde Kessler: “Did your grandmother have a place to herself, cabin or whatever near the house there? {Kentland main house} Or, how did that work?” Frank Bannister: “It was, old slave house. They tore it down not too long ago. For the house slaves, up from that old round looking thing.” {Round smokehouse to the right of the exterior kitchen}. Clyde Kessler: “Hey I’ve been up there.” Frank Bannister: “Have you?” Clyde Kessler: “I know that they just recently tore down, not too many years ago, they tore down the slave quarters there. Wasn’t it not too long ago?” Frank Bannister: “Well they had that house for the slaves.” Clyde Kessler: “So they lived—got to live close. Was it a fairly big cabin?” 16 Frank Bannister: “Oh yeah.” Clyde Kessler: “How many families lived in that?” Frank Bannister: “Just the house families.” Clyde Kessler: “And how many were they?” Frank Bannister: “I don’t know.” Clyde Kessler: “Did your grandma come out, or did she stay down at the plantation?” Frank Bannister: “She stayed down at the plantation.” Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Oscar Sherman mentioned that his—the Shermans had come from West Virg—I mean not West Virginia, Tennessee and were bought by Kent.” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah, right.” Clyde Kessler: “And just whatever years before they were set free there and that’s how they came to be in where they are.” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah I understand the Shermans worked in the house more or less. So they was, they um, they weren’t field slaves. And they were a little more trusted and so forth and they did work in the house.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Did your parents ever talk to you about Kentland? Did they know much about it?” James Sherman: “Not a lot, they, you know, a lot of um made their living down there.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah” James Sherman: “They weren’t slaves, but they worked there.” Morgan Cain: “After the Civil War?” James Sherman: “Yeah. After it...a lot of people made their livelihood down there.” Recollections of Oscar Sherman, 1982 Oscar Sherman: “I can remember my father saying that years ago when we used to sharecrop, you know, he’d have corn down there up the holler, and as much land as the Cowans had and the way they worked, his dad and all that stuff {“his dad” meaning James Randal Kent}, he {Major John Thomas Cowan} would still take shock for shock. Wasn’t no, wasn’t no good spot in him, telling you. He could have give it to him, what everybody was looking at. He worked them to death and if my daddy raised 100 shocks of corn, he had to give him 50. And we did all the work! I know that. We’d shuck one shock and leave one, shuck one and leave—and have to cut it and everything—not cut his though, just leave his standing. And if you raised 100 shocks or 200 shocks a 17 year, he got 100—50, 50! And you did all the work, plowed it with your horse, we had to thin it, had to keep the weeds out of it, then cut it, and he still get half! And I, I, I’m going to tell you the truth, I’m a say it loud, I hadn’t ever thought too much about the whole family. You can say what you want, he {Major Cowan} didn’t do us no favor.” 18 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter Two: The Birth of a Church Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “The people later built a church and school. And a fellow named Shadd, he was instrumental in the early days.” Clyde Kessler: “Shedd or Shadd?” Sonny Johnson: “Shadd, I think they call him Shadd. I can’t even spell it.” Clyde Kessler: “Reverend Shadd?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah.” Clyde Kessler: “Mrs. Bolland talked about him and how he was—thought he was a nice minister, but he was a rather strict disciplinarian with his teaching cards.” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah. That’s right. That’s true.” Clyde Kessler: “To say it in a positive way.” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah, he was—I don’t know how he came to be into the community, but he was probably a sort of a counselor, minister, and teacher, and a person—seemingly, he was educated; one of the few persons here who was educated at the time. And the other Blacks in that community weren’t educated.” Clyde Kessler: “So he was instrumental in getting the community going?” Sonny Johnson: “Right, yeah. But it might have been some person before him. Now that Baptist Church on the hill as you turn into Wake Forest, I mean it’s got a tombstone—not a tombstone, corner stone. It has his name on it, you know, when he set up the church and so forth. That cornerstone, that church there, {Wake Forest Baptist Church} that’s not the original church, that’s the second church.” Recollections of Ophelia Bolland, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “You mentioned going to Wake Forest School. What were some of your teachers’ names?” 19 Ophelia Bolland: “My first teacher was Reverend B.J. Shadd and I wasn’t more than, I remember, I went and I was about 6 years old.” Clyde Kessler: “What was he like?” Ophelia Bolland: “Mean. I call him a mean teacher. He whipped those great big girls and boys. They’d be standing there. He’s throw back that switch and whip em like he was whipping a horse. He was terrible.” Clyde Kessler: “I’ll have to replay something Clarence Page—or I’ll ask him again. I believe that was the same person that he said lined him and 2 other boys up at the same time and give em all a whipping.” Ophelia Bolland: “Oh he’d work on them. And you see the boys then wore overalls and thin overall jackets or coats. He’d say, ‘Pull it!’ and they wouldn’t pull it off. He’d take it off for em. The girls, great big girls, wore thin dresses buttoned up the back. He’d cut those girls sometimes, buttons would fly across the schoolhouse. He was cruel.” Clyde Kessler: “He sounds like he was something else mean.” Ophelia Bolland: “First day I went to him I was scared to death. My mother, I told Mama when I went home, ‘I’m not going back to school tomorrow.’ She said, ‘Oh yes you are.’ I said, ‘No I’m not!’” Clyde Kessler: “Was he a tall man?” Ophelia Bolland: “I could tell you how tall. He stood about 6 foot… He scared the livins out of me… He came over that time. He’d visit the children. He’d go home with the children. He said, ‘I’ll come home to eat supper with you this evening.’ My mother said, ‘My daughter say she’s not going to school in the morning. She’s scared half to death.’ He said, “Oh yes, I ain’t gonna hurt you. Those big ones should know their lesson. If they don’t know their lesson, I’ll whip ‘em. I’ll whip them but I’m not gonna whip you.” Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Frank Bannister: “Yeah. Now I don’t know where Reverend Shadd come from. He could have come from Wake Forest, North Carolina, but I don’t know. I wouldn’t say. But I—he was the architect of the church. He planned the church, you know.” Clyde Kessler: “Do you think the church acquired its name, and the community was named after the church?” Frank Bannister: “It’s Wake Forest Baptist.” Clyde Kessler: “He was from North Carolina?” Frank Bannister: “Who Shadd?” Clyde Kessler: “Yeah.” Frank Bannister: “I don’t know, that’s what I—” Clyde Kessler: “I’m going to be doing some checking on him. He sounds like a key person to find out about.” 20 Frank Bannister: “He was. Find out something about Shadd.” Clyde Kessler: “Well, they’re having that church day, so they’re bound to be having something about him there.” Frank Bannister: “See when they first started the church down there {the original Baptist Church}, it was a Methodist Church, and then Captain Schaeffer come in here and he, suppose made it a Baptist. Then later on, the Holiness church got started.” {When Mr. Bannister mentions that the church was originally a Methodist, he may be referring to the “African Methodist Episcopal Church” (thought to have been located on Big Vain Road) which existed in 1871, prior to the building of the original Baptist Church. It is possible that when the original Baptist Church was built, the congregation from the “African Methodist Episcopal Church” moved to the Baptist Church. See Appendix E-2}. Frank Bannister: “Captain Schaeffer {Captain Charles S. Schaeffer} from Pennsylvania established the little church there. You know, he was sent here to religiously educate the slaves.” Clyde Kessler: “He was the one for Shaffer Memorial down here that’s named after him. Did he work any with the one at Wake Forest?” Frank Bannister: “Oh yeah. He worked on down the road to Elliston, road to Elliston, on down toward Roanoke. He worked with the colored people. But they built that church over there and that school {in Wake Forest}, and he was over that. And when uh, now there was another preacher that had taken his place: S.A. Smith. He come there. He was {unclear}. I think they sent him from Pennsylvania, I don’t know. It could have been in North Carolina. I can’t say. You try to find out.” Clyde Kessler: “Some of these people might be key in the naming the community you think?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah. {Then} had this S.A. Smith I was telling you about. And he was preaching and he—never will forget a sermon he preached after older folks came in there. They made up their mind they was going to shut him out; wasn't going to let him preach after that, and he didn't pay no attention {unclear} And he told the truth. He was a good preacher. He'd come there once a month and in the winter time, he'd have a box of horehound candy. And he'd start at one end of that community and get every child from that high on up, and take um to Sunday School, give um all a stick of horehound candy. And summer time, you know how they used to come in boxes, peppermint. And so he'd do the same thing year round. He was a wonderful man.” Clyde Kessler: “Did he live in the community or did he-?” Frank Bannister: “He lived in Christiansburg.” Clyde Kessler: “Christiansburg?” Frank Bannister: “See, they sent him here to take care of Christiansburg Church that Captain Schaeffer finished there.” Clyde Kessler: “So he kind of took care of both places {Christiansburg Memorial and Wake Forest}. Well did he come down just about every Sunday or—?” 21 Frank Bannister: “No, you had service once a month, come on down the third Sunday, go to somebody else all the rest of um.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “It {the original church} started before I was maybe born when they first started, but I thought it was totally Black. But the first, the church that burned was built by Schaeffer, Charles Schaeffer: the same one that did C.I. and also Schaeffer Memorial Baptist Church there in Christiansburg. You bean to that church? Well he built the first church out here, on the sight where the Baptist Church is right out here on the hill. And he did it for the Black people. But I know he did build the church, as he built several churches, you know, around in the area. Now in this area; in the Elliston, Christiansburg, and back further up the road, you know, maybe Wytheville up in there, Wythe County, and just different kinds. He did that.” Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Jimmie Price: “There was a white man, had been a captain in the union army: Charles S. Schaeffer. He came here with the Freedman’s Bureau after the Civil War and he helped Black people to get schools and churches started. And the Black community in Christiansburg has a Schaeffer Memorial Baptist church, all Black, named for this white guy who had been so wonderful as a Christian to them and their faith.” Morgan Cain: “Did he come through here too?” Jimmie Price: “He came through here and lived for several years.” Morgan Cain: “Did he help that church down by Wake Forest?” Jimmie Price: “He did, and Elliston, and the one in Christiansburg. Three churches.” Morgan Cain: “Do you know what year he came through Wake Forest?” Jimmie Price: “Like 1865-66, immediately following the Civil War. And ah, you’ll find a, I think there’s a painting or a bust or something of him in that church, Schaeffer Memorial. Charles S. Schaeffer 22 Recollections of Clarence Page, 1982 John Nicolay: “What kind of relationship did the people, did the, the, this community like Wake Forest have with the community over at Christiansburg? Was there a lot of back and forth, like did y’all go to church ah, would there be days the people here would go down to Schaeffer Memorial or somewhere—” Clarence Page: “No. It was very seldom. {Unclear} that was about the only time we’d have church around here was on Sunday. Then there was Schaeffer Memorial, you know that’s over there, probably over there at C.I.I., whatever they call over there.” John Nicolay: “Christiansburg Institute?” Clarence Page: “Yeah, Christiansburg Institute.” John Nicolay: “I’ve heard a lot of stories about Schaeffer. He used to go around, of course he worked for ah, I guess he worked for the government, but then, in the Freedman’s Bureau. And then ah, he got to working for the Quakers and ah, did a lot of preaching down—I don’t know if he ever preached down here, but I know he preached over in Christiansburg a lot.” Clarence Page: “He never did preach over here.” Clyde Kessler: “Did he ever send anybody down from Schaeffer Memorial way? Did he ever send anybody down here?” Clarence Page: “No, not that I know of.” Recollections of Benzena Eaves, 2007 Benzena Eaves: “They say that the first church was a log cabin, made of logs. But it burned and when they rebuilt, that’s the original one that they rebuilt.” {The current Wake Forest Baptist Church} Morgan Cain: “I just wonder, did anybody ever have pictures. Do you have one?” Benzena Eaves: “No. My mother-in-law used to tell me about it, Henry’s mother. She told me how pretty it was. She passed.” 23 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter Three: The Naming & Building of a Community Naming Wake Forest: Recollections of Oscar Sherman, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “How did, um, the town of Wake Forest get its name or the community of Wake Forest get its name?” Oscar Sherman: “The community got its name because of ah, a group of slaves was freed down at Cowan’s property that had been bought with another bunch of slaves from Wake Forest, North Carolina. And when they was freed then, what property he gave here, he give to {what came to be known as} Wake Forest. And I understand that he gave to one person, Peat Armstrong. And down through the years it’s been divided and, you know, sold and resold to generation to generation. But it come from slaves, Wake Forest slaves that came out of Wake Forest, North Carolina.” Clyde Kessler: “Do you know any of the people that were descended from that, descendents from that group that came from down in North Carolina? Or did they have a different set of names?” Oscar Sherman: “I would think, I would think so. Now, my, my people: Shermans, came from ah—” Clyde Kessler: “Whitethorne down in here?” Oscar Sherman: “No, came from Tennessee originally.” Clyde Kessler: “Tennessee.” Oscar Sherman: “They came from Tennessee to this Whitethorne Farms. They tell me there’s a whole community of Shermans in Tennessee, about the same place we originally came from.” Clyde Kessler: “That’s the kind of picture I’m trying to get of the beginning of the community—how the community, um, began to grow or like ah, Clarence Page mentioned that just before the mines shut down, there was over 30 families down here, he thought. That’s how he remembers it.” Oscar Sherman: “Right.” Clyde Kessler: “So over 30 families down here is as big as the community ever got?” Oscar Sherman: “That’s right.” Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 24 Sonny Johnson: Well, My version of how Wake Forest become in deed, what I’ve heard, and I’ve done a little research on it: After—during the reconstruction days, after slavery, um, they um, this fellow Kent or Cowan—I guess maybe Kent—he released, he released his slaves, you know. He owned all that property back in that Wake Forest, the whole mountain and everything. And he just told them to go into that wooded area and to plot off a piece of land, claim it their own, and he would give um deed to it. And they did. And they went into the wooded area, you know, seemingly all wood, which was a forest. And overnight, they had built a community out of the forest and logs and what have you. And that’s how the Wake part of it come, like, like, you, you go overnight, you wake up the next morning and the community is there. And the Wake Forest, that’s how it came into being. You know, from the community—the forest became a community overnight. And that’s, that’s my version of it. This is what I’ve heard of how it become a community. This is all, as far as I know, this is how the community come into being. And the slaves, they continued—well they weren’t slaves, they were freed slaves—they continued to go back to the Cowan’s plantation to work everyday. But they were, they didn’t stay on—some of them elected not to even leave off the plantation. They stayed there in the slave cabins though and so forth. You know, being uneducated and so forth, they had this insecure feeling. And so they didn’t leave. And others did leave and set up their community.” Recollections of Clarence Page, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “How did the town, how did Wake Forest come to get its name? Do you know?” Clarence Page: “I don’t know who named Wake Forest.” John Nicolay: “It’s kind of a funny name.” Clarence Page: “Yes it is. First one I ever known to call it Wake Forest—had an old preacher around here, B.J. Shadd. And he’s the first one I know to call it Wake Forest.” Clyde Kessler: “Baptist preacher?” Clarence Page: “Yeah.” Clyde Kessler: “Which church, around here?” Clarence Page: “The main Baptist church right up the road, you see the one {unclear} it burnt, it burnt down after it got named. Church, it got burnt down. Way down there where the slaves from that church—” Clyde Kessler: “Where was he from?” Clarence Page: “Old Man Shadd, oh, I believe his home was in Kentucky.” John Nicolay: “He, he, was he a traveling preacher?” Clarence Page: “No, just come and settled, married and settled down.” Clyde Kessler: “Did he marry somebody from right in here? 25 Clarence Page: “I don’t know that. {unclear} He called himself mean, everyone through here back then was scared of him. He called himself mean.” Clyde Kessler: “Why?” Clarence Page: “I don’t know, just a devil is all I can say.” John Nicolay: “The preacher?” Clarence Page: “Yeah!” Clyde Kessler: “Did he preach fire and brimstone with it?” Clarence Page: “Always it.” Clyde Kessler: “Well, did he do anything else for a living?” Clarence Page: “Old Man Shadd? Not that I know of.” Clyde Kessler: “Did he die around here or did he move away?” Clarence Page: “He moved away, Old Man Shadd did. {Unclear} back to Kentucky and died down there.” Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Jimmie Price: “Around the turn of the century, a minister came here from West Virginia, African American minister. And then there was another Black minister came here, I think he was from North Carolina. The, the village of, the community in the village of Wake Forest became founded by these slaves and one of these slaves was a man who was a man named Peter Armstrong from North Carolina. He’d been born in Tennessee; he was a slave near Wake Forest, North Carolina. A blacksmith, being a tradesmen, he could earn more. He purchased land early on and helped the other freed slaves to get land out there. So he—this minister at the turn of the century at the Baptist Church named this Black settlement Wake Forest in honor of Peter Armstrong who had come from Wake Forest, North Carolina. Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Do you know how Wake Forest got its name? The church or the community there, as they say, or call it Wake Forest all through there.” Frank Bannister: “No, I don’t know.” Clyde Kessler: “I’ve heard two different stories from people down there. One comes from Sonny Johnson. He said that people went in and settled like overnight, and woke the forest up. So they called it Wake Forest. And then another person just told me that some of the slaves originally from Wake—ex-slaves were from Wake Forest, North Carolina. Not the college—the university, but from the little town down there called Wake Forest—” Frank Bannister: “I don’t know, frankly, if either one of those is right.” 26 Clyde Kessler: “Just little legends, a screw up? It’s got to have a name from some place, some where-how.” Frank Bannister: “Just like Whitethorne, you know how it got its name?” Clyde Kessler: “No I don’t.” Frank Bannister: “Kent’s Farm?” Clyde Kessler: “How did he get it?” Frank Bannister: “When the railroad come through there, them white honey locust seen in that bottom was bloomed out, was white. And they had a thorn on um about that long. And I know this here is fact. That’s how it got its name Whitethorne.” Clyde Kessler: “From the Locust tree, {unclear} and budding. I’ve been trying to dig into how Wake Forest got its name. I understand they’re going to have a history of the church down there coming up pretty soon, like a few months. Sonny Johnson’s wife is working on that. So I might be able to find out from them if anybody knows.” Frank Bannister: “Well, ain’t many people knows about it. I’m the oldest around here. And telling you the truth, I wouldn’t tell you lies… And I only know what {unclear} and don’t know who you up on something {Mr. Bannister is indicating that he’s not sure where some information came from, but he’s not going to tell anything he doesn’t know or thinks is false}.” Clyde Kessler: “Well, I, you know, well like say, this is according to this person. That’s what they have said. That’s what they have, you know, they may have been told that.” Frank Bannister: “That’s the reason when you told me you talked to Janie, I told you all, ‘That may not be so.’ Janie come from Christiansburg, she was over there. She don’t know no more than somebody told her of Wake Forest.” Clyde Kessler: “Well, that’s the way we put it down many times you’re dealing with things you don’t have a definite record of. We just have to say, ‘According to this person.’ Frank Bannister: “Yeah, that’s the way it works.” Clyde Kessler: “Now, I know that, these, the, these whole ideas of how the community got its name is coming from the younger people, you know. Like I asked Clarence Page and he said he didn’t know how it got its name.” Frank Bannister: “I don’t either.” Clyde Kessler: “And I figure y’all {Frank Bannister& Clarence Page} were there and people were there when the community got started and they {younger folks} are just going by what somebody has—what they think or what somebody’s told them.” Frank Bannister: “I won’t say, but I do know how Whitethorne got its name.” 27 Building the Community Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “From what I understand there was a group of slaves that worked there on the plantation that Mrs. Cowan gave the land to. But some of them, it was about, I don’t know how many families it was, but it was certain families. Not all the slaves now, it was certain families that she gave land. Like I can just say that this is Eaves family, over there is Jones family, over there is the Milton family, here the Johnsons, this here is so and so.” Morgan Cain: “And were they—they were given those properties?” Henry Eaves: “They were given those properties, yeah.” Morgan Cain: “Did—were they given, um—did they have deeds with them too?” Henry Eaves: “Yeah, they had deeds with them too. I got the original deed to the Eaves property.” Morgan Cain: “Given by Cowan?” Henry Eaves: “Yeah, it was given to my grandmother’s brother. His last name was Rollins.” Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Ok. And Cowan let um clean it up?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah.” Clyde Kessler: “And he let um keep for—what were they keeping it for? Pasture or something?” Frank Bannister: “No, it was all woods.” Clyde Kessler: “All woods, but they kept the brush out of the timber or what?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah, they kept—they had some gardening spots {unclear}. Clyde Kessler: “So it was just farm settlements. And this was before 1900?” Frank Bannister: “I don’t know exactly when that was. That was directly after they come out of slavery.” Clyde Kessler: Just after then...So just after they came out of slavery.” Frank Bannister: “They {Cowans} just set um {freedman} back there in the mountain.” Clyde Kessler: “Set um back in the mountain.” Frank Bannister: “{Unclear}...Built log cabins.” Clyde Kessler: “Did your grandmother and grandfather, for example, have much property of their own? Did they have anything much? Were they allowed to have anything much?” Frank Bannister: “Well yeah, they had all they could have. He was still working on the farm, he was a tenant farmer. They {Cowans} rent him some land. He’d work the land. So much he’d sell for property.” 28 Clyde Kessler: “You know, most of the people eventually left the farm down there and settled by—at Wake Forest or that Long Shop or somewhere in that area, by when? When had they pretty much left the farm?” Frank Bannister: “Well, some of my relatives left the farm, went to Buckskin, Iowa.” Clyde Kessler: “Buckskin, Iowa?” Frank Bannister: “Way, way out there. See there’s transportation paid your way. Jobs opened up around, a whole lot of folks left, went out there {after the Civil War}. Wasn’t many people, but some of them.” Clyde Kessler: “A lot of the Bannister family went on and Shermans?” Frank Bannister: “Well, they was Callers then.” Clyde Kessler: “A lot of Callers went out to this area of Iowa?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah, my uncle Buck went out there, but he come back. See, some come back, settled back here. Clyde Kessler: “Let's see now, you mentioned forty-five families on forty-five acres. Now this was—was this in Wake Forest, or was this—” Frank Bannister: “Yeah, that was in Wake Forest.” Clyde Kessler: “Was that—now, there was other pieces of land too that became Wake Forest too right?” Frank Bannister: “Well after, way later on years after, JR. Cowan want to give state right-away back into the mountains. And he run that fence, uh, highway. And right straight with the line there. And there was other people living over on that side of the line, but—which is known as Wake Forest too. You couldn't confine that forty-five acres to Wake Forest. Cause the McCoys had sold-matter of fact, McCoys sold us our graveyard, and a few other families: The Eaves's and so forth, land up there in the mountain. {The McCoys also gave land for the earliest church in Wake Forest in 1871, see Appendix E-2} They go in Wake Forest too. But it's uh, and forty-five acres lays from the highway down to graves line. That was the original. But just like I told you before hand, it was some of them {ex-slaves} living down at Long Shop, some of um up at Price, some of um everywhere around, and our church was supposed to been in the center. You know, they tried to put it in the center of the community.” Clyde Kessler: “Equal distance for everybody.” Recollections of Clarence Page, 1982 John Nicolay: “Why was it that the people that left there {Whitethorne}, came down here? Do you know, do you know how this town got started, Wake Forest? The town of Wake Forest, why was it that the Blacks left? I mean, I know why they left the plantation, but why did they settle here?” 29 Clarence Page: “Well we just had them old houses through here off the tracks {unclear} Kent down here, pretty much all them old slaves came to work—” Clyde Kessler: “Already had cabins here? There were already cabins here?” Clarence Page: “No, they built um, cut their own logs and built um.” Clyde Kessler: “About when was this?” Clarence Page: “Oh, before my time when they was building all those log houses, but I seen them in one of them they built.” Clyde Kessler: “Was it right after the Civil War? Clarence Page: “Yeah, I imagine.” 30 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter Four: The Split and Fire in Wake Forest Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “That church there, {Wake Forest Baptist Church} that’s not the original church, that’s the second church.” Clyde Kessler: “Yeah, they mentioned it burned down. Do you know when it burned down?” Sonny Johnson: “No I don’t... They think it was purposefully burn down, it didn’t accidentally burn down. Due to some feuds or something among the members and so forth. I don’t know what it was.” Clyde Kessler: “So there was a kind of strife?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah there’s some suspicion that the church didn’t burn down on accident and so forth because it was some division among the members.” Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 Deacon William Brown: “You probably heard the story about the original church burning down. You know and you really don’t know. Some of the old, older people suspect some people burnt it down, and some of the other people say, ‘Well it was accident, you know.’ But it was built back.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “The splitting of the church came when—this was a white minister—when he came through preaching here. And he preached Holiness, you know. And which was, to me, I don’t know, well it was a difference in the style and worship. And that’s when the church split.” Morgan Cain: “And some followed that white minister?” Esther Jones: “I mean, it had to do something when they burnt the church down. So during that time I think they—the Holiness Pentecostals had church, you know, in homes and all like that. And then the Baptist, you know, built their own church and the Holiness built they own church up here.” Morgan Cain: “Do you know what year it {The Holiness Church} was rebuilt?” Esther Jones: “I would say 1919, 1920, maybe 1920. I think about the year I was born, all this was going on, you know. And I only know what my parents and my grandparent, you know, tell me about that period of time.” Morgan Cain: “So your grandparents had gone to the Baptist church?” Esther Jones: “They all attended that church. That was the only church here {back then}. But they came, you know, with the Pentecostals cause my grandfather built this little church up here.” 31 Morgan Cain: “Did you ever ask your parents or grandparents why they decided to go to the Holiness church instead of going back to the Baptist Church?” Esther Jones: “I think the reason would be: it was more Spirit filled, the Holiness. And you know, well, have you heard, I know you’ve heard the expression—which is a good expression—is that they spoke in tongues. Well you know, at that time I don’t think the Baptist—didn’t want that in there, that church, you know. So it was just one of those things that, ‘You follow what you believe’ and ‘You follow what you believe,’ you know.” Morgan Cain: “And was there any anger between the two congregations?” Esther Jones: “Not that I know of. Not, no, no. I mean I don’t think so. Probably at the time the church was burnt there was, probably was some anger cause you know, it was a beautiful church.” Morgan Cain: “Was there any rumor that someone had burned it on purpose?” Esther Jones: “Oh yes. It was very much so. It had to have been burnt on purpose.” Morgan Cain: “Did people decide why that had happened?” Esther Jones: “They didn’t want Holiness in the Baptist, that’s why, and you know—” Morgan Cain: “So did they think, allegedly, that one of the Holiness people had burnt the church?” Esther Jones: “No. It wasn’t a Holiness who did it. No. It was not the ones that believed in the Holiness. They weren’t the ones. Course all that is hearsay and I don’t like to put too much emphasis on it, you know. But I understand that some of the peoples, you know, originals that was there, that did it. But I can’t, I can’t say that for sure.” Morgan Cain: “So you said originally that the Holiness minister came through the Baptist church and that’s kind of where people decided they liked the idea of Holiness spirituality and being filled with the spirit. Did he stay at the church or did another minister come?” Esther Jones: “No, you know, people would come through and carry on revival and they’d travel on, you know. I think, as far as I can remember, that minister was named—well then there wasn’t no ‘reverend.’ Wasn’t all of that. People just called them brother; brother this and brother that—and I think his name was Brother Wind, W-I-N-D. As far as I know. And then they would come through and carry on revival. They would take, I mean they didn’t establish, you know, to stay there any length of time. Because their business was to carry the gospel from area to area.” Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Morgan Cain: “So do you know out of that first—what was the title of that first African American church?” Jimmie Price: “It was called The African Methodist Episcopal Church.” {This church predates the original Baptist Church which was burned. The African Methodist Episcopal church is thought to have been 32 located on what is now Big Vain Road. One square acre of land for this first church was deeded to the trustees of the African Methodist Episcopal Church in 1871 by George & Mary McCoy. See Appendix E-2} Morgan Cain: “And from that, are there any direct offspring from that church?” Jimmie Price: “Ok, there are, there are two offspring, well there’s three, three structures out there. Um, they worshiped in a combination church and school as I said. They didn’t have a real name, just referred to as Black Church or Wake Forest Church. The Baptist Church was started first {after the Methodist Episcopal Church}, then some of the people in the Baptist church—see Black and White people had always pretty much worshipped together. There was this pastor came from West Virginia to this Black Baptist Church. Some of the people were kind of worshiping in the union style and then the Baptist services, some of them would do the shouting and testimonies and exuberant, joyful worship and the Baptist pastor didn’t like that. He felt that if anyone was going to worship differently that they ought to get out and get their own place. Mysteriously, the church burned. Right after the church burned, they built it back and the pastor announced it was going to be strictly Baptist and not any mixed congregation any more and the white preachers were not going to be preaching there anymore. So some of those members went just a little distance over in the village in the community and they formed the Black Pentecostal Church.” Morgan Cain: “Where they could shout?” Jimmie Price: “Where they could shout and testify.” Morgan Cain: “And is it still there?” Jimmie Price: “It’s still there.” Morgan Cain: “What’s, what’s the name of that church?” Jimmie Price: “Ok. It’s now a denominational church, I believe they call it United Holy Church. United Holy Church, that’s a denomination: United Holy Church, that’s Pentecostal.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Did your family attend the Baptist—” James Sherman: “They mostly attended the Baptist Church. It was an old Baptist church, not the one where I go to now. Directly down below where that little house is, right below the church, the old Baptist church foundation is right in there. It burnt down.” Morgan Cain: “Right.” James Sherman: “Yeah.” Morgan Cain: “Your parents were there before it burnt down?” James Sherman: “They were there before it burnt down, yeah. They built a little Holl-they called it a Pentecostal Church, little Holiness church, where they learn more about, learn more about sanctification, you know. When I was young, I would attend on occasion, well I never did go to the {original} Baptist church, 33 cause I wasn’t old enough—really didn’t know about it. I didn’t know when the church burnt down. I didn’t know actually when they built the new church out there.” 34 I. The Dawn of Wake Forest Chapter Five: A Relationship Out of the Ashes Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Frank Bannister: “Yeah. And when I joined the church {Baptist Church}, see my grandfather, he belonged to the Baptist Church. And when the Holiness spoke out there and they'd do a lot of commotion going on, a lot of folks from the Baptist went over there and joined them. And when I got ready to change the order, I told my grandfather, I said, ‘Well now, I'll stay over to your church if you say so, cause I'm your eldest {unclear}. He said, ‘No, you stay where you're at. It's better for you to be at where you're at {unclear}.’ What I know now, I'd never left my church.” Clyde Kessler: “You were at the Baptist Church and then you went to the—” Frank Bannister: “No, I didn't go the Holiness Church!” Clyde Kessler: “You stayed to the Baptist Church because of your grandfather's advice?” Frank Bannister: “Mmhumn. See that other church was just a family church. And if you wasn't an Eaves, you didn't get no voice in it. The Eaves was running it.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “By the time I came along as a child, if they were having something at the Baptist, we closed church, we went there. And if they were having, I mean, they would do the same. The both churches, they didn’t—you worshiped together when you had things. Or for instance, maybe we had, maybe Sunday School up here in the morning, they had Sunday School in the afternoon, and a lot of times we went to two, you know. I mean you just, when—I’m telling you what happened by the time I came along. It’ wasn’t no, it wasn’t nothing, you know. Everybody worked together as a community. And we would have, sometimes we’d have big meetings and people would come in from West Virginia, North Carolina. You know, to attend what they—we would call a union, a convocation. Well, everyone opened their house and kept um. And the same thing when they had associations and things at the Baptist; we opened our house and we’d take care of the people who came in. Cause at that time, wasn’t no motels, wasn’t no hotels. And we all fixed food and we did everything together. It wasn’t—in my time—there was no strife or anything like that, they all just—all came together.” Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 35 Sonny Johnson: “From years back, families would be Baptist and families would be Holiness.” Clyde Kessler: “What were some of the main differences? How did the people get along with each other?” Sonny Johnson: “They got along basically together.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 James Sherman: “There were cautious about speaking about what brought about the split or whatever it was you know. It was evidentially over doctrine, the Bible yeah. Ain’t the matter that much, cause they all still worked together here the community you know. There would be no hard feeling between each other, you know, anger or no carrying on.” Morgan Cain: “It was still a sore subject?” James Sherman: “Yeah, it was a sore subject, yes sire, that’s it. But my daddy never mentioned it, mama never mentioned it. Daddy always told me that ah, he didn’t criticize no one church, no one minister. They’s just a lot more that’s got to be taught from the Bible, which it is, the Bible’s a big subject, you know. Makes you realize that we just don’t know. The little bit that we know is just a piece of what’s in that whole, whole Bible. And you never hear them discuss their religion like the split or nothing, you never did hear that, they didn’t do that. They just, it’s that oneness of this community. I’d say you know that they respected each other like that.” Morgan Cain: “Did your wife go to one church or the other all the time?” James Sherman: “She went to the Baptist Church all the time. I went to the Pentecostal church. And it didn’t bother us though. Not at all.” Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Your family stayed with the Baptist Church instead of the Holiness?” Howard Eaves: “Yeah.” Jean Eaves: “Half of them. His granddaddy belonged to the Holiness Church.” Howard Eaves: “Yeah, right. And my grandma, my grandmother, she belonged to the Baptist.” {Both Jean and Howard begin laughing}. Morgan Cain: “They were married?” Howard Eaves: “Yeah, she was a strong-willed old woman.” {Everyone laughing}. Jean Eaves: “I remember that well.” Howard Eaves: “Cause we were raised Baptist, but, but they shared us, you know, as kids. Like we would go to a church in the morning at the Holiness—” Jean Eaves: “Mmhmn.” 36 Howard Eaves: “And then in the afternoon service we’d go out to the Baptist.” Jean Eaves: “Cause they didn’t have morning service. They had Sunday School at two and then 3 o’clock service.” Morgan Cain: “Did your grandmother not believe in speaking in tongues?” Howard Eaves: “You know I never—I was so young at that time. I never got into that aspect of it, you know, of the religion, at that young an age. So I don’t really—couldn’t really say honestly, say yes or no. I knew they were very lively. You know, liked to make noise. What was that? I think mama was telling me, remember we were there after and she was, she was saying ‘there wasn’t going to be no Holly Rollers.’ Something they didn’t want them to be {at the Baptist Church}, might have been the tongues, I don’t know.” Jean Eaves: “Yeah, I don’t know” Howard Eaves: “Cause down through the years, I’m trying to reflect back on, you know, how they, you know, perceived it in our culture. At that time, it’s kind of hard to you know, to really pinpoint what the issue was. It might have been that.” Jean Eaves: “It probably was.” Morgan Cain: “So you never asked your parents why y’all didn’t go the Holiness church? {Question for Howard}” Howard Eaves: “No, no. We weren’t allowed to do it.”{Referring to being allowed to question elders}. We went where they wanted you to go.” Jean Eaves: “Yeah, you didn’t question anything. But you know it’s interesting and I guess we never knew too much about the real history of it.” Howard Eaves: “Getting involved deeper into the aspect of it like speaking in tongues and all that kind of stuff, you know.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: The churches was split. The churches—you went to one church. What I’m talking about: the churches were split, take my, my grandparents. Now my grandparents on my mother’s side, both of them were Joneses. And both of them—one of them was a Baptist Deacon and the other one went to the Holiness church; his wife went to the Holiness—her name was Lizzie Jones—she went to the Holiness Church. Alright, my—it reversed itself with my father’s parents. My granddaddy was a Holiness deacon. And my grandmother was a Baptist member. This is why I say they were split.” Morgan Cain: “Did that cause problems?” Henry Eaves: “If it caused problems, to tell you the truth—it might have caused problems in the house. I never see where I’ve ever heard my grandparents argue over the teaching of their predominant church.” Morgan Cain: “You never heard it?” 37 Henry Eaves: “I never heard them do this. They might have argued over dinner or some, something like that… Then, you know, there was certain times during the, during the, certain times like during, during the year, say Christmas or something, they may have a—Holiness Church may have a church function going on and the Baptist people would go as well. They still even do that today. It was just open things like every year up there at this Holiness Church up here, they have—the community has Thanksgiving Dinner. Everybody participates: Baptist and Holiness. But to tell you the truth, right now the two churches isn’t split as much as they used to be. They are more so together. But if there’s a sickness or death in the community, they all come together, all one accord. And we really, we are very supportive of each other, church wise. Now just, I never could just say, ‘Well, I can meet you on the road and tell whether you Holiness or Baptist.’ That has never been the case and I’ve never seen it around here like that. But I ain’t saying it didn’t happen. And then another thing too is, I noticed growing up, the kids followed along the family. It’s just like, well, I went to the Baptist church because my grandmother and my uncles went to the Baptist church. And then another thing too, at one time they had—one had church in the morning and the other one had church in the afternoon. So you had a choice of either one you wanted. But very seldom do you see someone go spending all day in church, going here then go here. I figure they figure, especially a young person, they figure that’s a little too long.” Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 Deacon William Brown: “And normally, you know, you’ll find, sometimes the people out of the Holiness—New Pentecostal Holiness Church, their pastor might go somewhere for that weekend or somewhere; well, they’ll come out to this church {The Baptist Church}. A core group of them will come to our church, saying, ‘Our pastor went out of town,’ or something like this, ‘so we come out here.’ And then the two churches too, when they have Community Day, that weekend, the community service is either—if it’s, one year it’s held at the New Pentecostal, the next year it’s held at the Baptist. It rotates back and forth. And, cause like I said, when they have Community Day, all of the money or something goes toward maintenance of the cemetery and things like that, you know.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Reverend Spencer: “And the community works well. We um, if we have, um, a funeral or have something in the community where we all have to pull together, if I have a funeral at my church I can feel free to ask someone to call all the people in the community and tell them that we’re feeding the family and we need this, this, and this and nobody ever says, ‘We’re not going to help.’ They come together. They come into the kitchen; they work just like it’s their church. And uh, we work good together, both churches: Reverend Spraggins and his people and my people. We just, we different ones: one’s Baptist and one’s United Holiness, 38 but we just working under the same God. So we, work very good together. Very good together. Very good together.” 39 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Six: New Life Chapter Seven: Baptism & Communion Chapter Eight: Weddings Chapter Nine: Music, Prayer, & Sundays Chapter Ten: Death, Funerals, & Burial 40 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Six: New Life Recollections of Oscar Sherman, 1982 Oscar Sherman: “I’ve had brothers and sisters born in the same house that I lived that I didn’t even know my mother was pregnant.” Clyde Kessler: “They kept that secret? They didn’t allow the kids to—” Oscar Sherman: “No, I went with people from here when the child was going to be born in the community. Had a midwife, but if they would call for doctor, doctor uh, H.F. Huffman, he, he would come. He would, I can remember when he had the first old car, but before that, he had a horse and a buggy. He’d come all the way from Blacksburg, out on Airport Road out there. Cause that was the main highway at the time. He would come all the way here… But if a child was born in this house, we children at night would go stay at a neighbor’s house. We didn’t know. We’d come back the next morning and we’d have a brother or sister.” Clyde Kessler: “How did they explain that to you? Did they say the stork came or something?” Oscar Sherman: “They claimed that the doctor brought it in that bag.” Recollections of Carolyn Spraggins, 2007 Carolyn Spraggins: “Fanny Day lived in Christiansburg, and then she moved to some area in Blacksburg she said, but I don’t know where it is. She, and she’s got two daughter and they dedicated her oldest daughter’s baby to the church Sunday. That was a nice service. It was very, very moving. She said, since she had her baby, it made a big difference—change in her life to make sure that she raised him knowing God and that she’d do the best as a mother, and that was really touching, you know. A child, you are responsible for your child until they get old enough to be responsible for themselves. And if God is touching her in the way to let her know that that’s the first step she needs to make, that, that’s great. That’s really great. She had quite a few people teary eyed.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah I bet.” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah, it was very emotional.” 41 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Seven: Baptism & Communion Baptism Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “What was the Baptism like?” Sonny Johnson: “Baptism was held in the creek, of a branch down there, you cross right over it when you go.” Clyde Kessler: “What’s the name of the creek? Tom’s Creek?” Sonny Johnson: “No, no.” Clyde Kessler: “No that’s too big. That’s an awful big creek.” Sonny Johnson: “No, it’s a creek that’s down from... you know where the Baptist Church is on the hill? If you go down, there’s a ball game, or ball diamond over from the Baptist Church there, and if you go down, you go down a hill across from a little narrow bridge there before you get up to Clarence Pages’. That’s, that’s where. They dam that up, and they had the baptisms there.” Clyde Kessler: “What did they call it, just a baptism pond or something? What did they call it?” Sonny Johnson: “I don’t, I don’t know. I really can’t, that pond, that branch is called The Branch for one thing, and it doesn’t have any name to my knowledge. And that’s where they would dam it up and have the baptisms in there.” Clyde Kessler: “Did they damn it up just before, or was it always kept?” Sonny Johnson: “No, just usually dammed up just before. Just for that purpose. And usually they let the dam lose after that cause they feared the kids would go down and get drowned. So they didn’t keep it damned up. And there was one fellow in the community that drowned there, and I think after that, didn’t take no more chances. But he was an adult person who drowned.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Well does Wake Forest have a certain creek or pond that they go to?” Esther Jones: “We go down to this creek down here at Long Shop. Where Jimmie and, you know, all and every church around use that run-in at the creek right down there.” Morgan Cain: “And would the Baptists go down and watch?” Esther Jones: “Mmhumn. And they go down there to be baptized too {Pointing up the road to the Baptist Church}. But before then, before we went to the—when you cross this little bridge down here, you know, that stream going right, right here below my house. You see all this used to be open fields. Wasn’t no growth up like it is now, you know. And there’s a beautiful area right down on the hill. The men would come 42 maybe about the middle of the week, and damn it up, make a damn when they was going to be a baptizing. Cause the first time I was baptized, I was baptized down here in this right down here in this branch where they’d damn it up. And it’s hard for you to believe this, but it happened and I know it happened cause I was there. It happened. When it was carrying on revival it was so cold that they, Sunday they was going to baptize. The men had to go down and cut ice off the pond, but everybody went in and baptized just like it was June or July. You know it was ice cold.” Morgan Cain: “Were you baptized in the ice?” Esther Jones: “No I wasn’t, but I say I saw it when they did. I was, I don’t know what age I was. I was a child then. I guess maybe was about 10, 9, or 10 years old. But I remember they had to get the ice off the pond for baptism. Baptism: I wouldn’t say it’s required, but I believe it because why would He send John to baptize if it was not some meaning there?” Recollections of Jimmie Price & Betty Price, 2006 Betty Price: “Tell her the story about baptizing the slave Cal.” Jimmie Price: “Ok. There’s one of James Randal Kent’s slaves, see he had four plantations. One of his slaves at Walnut Spring, uncle Calvin Kyle—in those days we were taught to call the elder Black people Uncle and Aunt, out of respect, I was. Uncle Kyle, Sister Kate, Uncle this, Uncle that. Uncle Calvin Kyle was an old and faithful slave to the Otey, Otey family. He worked for the Oteys after he was freed, never left. He was a carriage driver, gardener, jack of all trades. Beloved of that family. He was old and getting frail and feeble, and he desired to make sure of his soul’s salvation. His owner, his former owner, actually the son of his former owner was so good to him, provided the place for him to live and he sent for his minister from Blacksburg and he had him to come down to baptize Uncle Kyle and make sure of his soul before he died. Large crowd from the community gathered.” Morgan Cain: “Black crowd?” Jimmie Price: “Black and White.” Betty Price: “My dad was there.” Jimmie Price: “He told us this story.” Betty Price: “He was a young kid, child.” Jimmie Price: “Yeah, and he said it was very solemn they gathered on the creek bank at a cattle fort where cattle used to cross and there’s a deep pool near there. The minister took uncle Kyle out in the water and some boys on the bank began cutting up, and laughing, and carrying on and kind of making fun.” Betty Price: “Cause it was cold.” Jimmie Price: “It was cold and the old man was shivering.” Betty Price: “Shivering.” 43 Jimmie Price: “And um, the farm owner who was overseeing all this, he became angry and he said ‘You boys shut up!’ said, ‘This is a sacred and a serious time. It’s no laughing matter and you get quiet.’ And so he drew back as if he would strike um and her, her {Betty’s} dad said they took that old Black man in that water and they baptized him and everybody was blessed. It was a sacred and a blessed time. He got baptized and it wasn’t long before he went to meet his maker. And that was just a sweet, sweet story that keeps being told in our neighborhood.” 44 Communion Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Morgan Cain: “What is communion like at your church? Esther Jones: “We will have communion, and then after that we’d have, you know—wash each other’s feet. It’s a symbol.” Morgan Cain: “Do you have a loaf, do you have special communion—” Esther Jones: “No. We get that delivered special bread, you know, little cubes, wafers.” Morgan Cain: “Unleavened bread?” Esther Jones: “Mmhumn. Yeah you buy it, unleavened bread.” Morgan Cain: “We have a woman in our church makes that, does someone in your church make it?” Esther Jones: “No they buy. I used to make it all the time, but they started, you know.” Morgan Cain: “You don’t make it anymore?” Esther Jones: “No.” Morgan Cain: “When did you begin making it for the church, when you were young?” Esther Jones: “Well not ‘til maybe after—my mother used to do it. Maybe after she got so she couldn’t do it. I lost my mother in ‘79, course she’d been sick, you know, seven years, I mean, in a nursing home seven years before then. But I believe I just took up where she—” Morgan Cain: “Did you grandmother happened to make it too?” Esther Jones: “Yes. My grandmother, and then my mother, then I did.” Morgan Cain: “That’s special.” 45 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Eight: Weddings Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Did most of the people in the community get married there at that {Baptist} church?” Sonny Johnson: “Well, they didn’t have too much—too many church weddings then. Most of them got married in houses, or went over to the minister’s house, but the minister—” Clyde Kessler: “How were—what was the ceremony like at the house? I can’t, I, nobody got married at home when I grew up.” Sonny Johnson: “They like, it was more or less like a religious ceremony.” Clyde Kessler: “The minister was there?” Sonny Johnson: “The minister, yeah, right.” Clyde Kessler: “And parents of both the bride and groom?” Sonny Johnson: “Right, and other members of the family, both sides. And just other people in the community.” Clyde Kessler: “How did they go about—did they fix the house up special in any way?” Sonny Johnson: “Not too much, no. That, I can’t remember specifically any weddings, but I know they did have the weddings at the house more so. I can’t even—back in my early days, didn’t have no weddings at the church that I can remember. But I know they did have them at home.” 46 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Nine: Music, Prayer, & Sundays Music Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves, 2006 Jean Eaves: “At the Holiness we had ten o’clock Sunday School, eleven o’clock service, so, we all would go to the Holiness, that morning, then have to go home and eat, and we’d all go and had, you know, a choir for the kids more or less.” {In the 1950-60’s} Howard Eaves: “We had a junior choir. We traveled everywhere; we were big stuff. We went all, you know, through, uh, around through the area. Got invited to different places, had this school teacher—” Jean Eaves: “Ernestine Robertson.” Howard Eaves: “Ernestine Robertson, yeah, she was our director so—” Morgan Cain: “She was a Wake Forest teacher?” Howard Eaves & Jean Eaves: “Yeah.” Morgan Cain: “For both churches too?” Jean Eaves: “Well, she’s for the Montgomery County schools.” Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “They had Sunday School and two choirs in the church: had a senior choir and then a junior choir, cause their was a lot of kids in community at the time. But even the kids didn’t go to the church for rehearsal, they went over to Janie Milton’s house for rehearsal, choir rehearsal.” {In the 1950-60’s} Clyde Kessler: “She was the choir leader?” Sonny Johnson: “Director yeah, she, she could, she played the piano. She’s one of the few people in the community who can play piano.” Clyde Kessler: “Did they ever use any other instruments in the church?” Sonny Johnson: “No, not in the Baptist Church. They do in the Holiness Church.” Clyde Kessler: “What kind of instruments would they use at the Holiness Church?” Sonny Johnson: “Well, they use electronic instruments and amplifiers, even now, like drums and guitars. But the Baptist Church, more or less back in those days, they forbided it.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2006 Eyvonne Spencer: “Well, we love to sing and Sister Ernestine, when she’s there, she enhances the service with the piano playing. She really does a beautiful job. And I tell her all the time, she plays like my mother. She reminds me of my mother when she plays the piano, and uh, she’s a beautiful person also. 47 Well I am, I told um, one of these Sundays we’re going to pull the piano out, and we’re going to go out with the microphone, and just be a loud speaker, and we’re going to have church right out there in the parking lot. Up under a big tree or something. Get a tent and have church right out there in the parking lot...message and all, songs and all. We’re going to get Ernestine on the piano and we going to belt out the community.” 48 Prayer Recollections of Hazel Choate, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Did you guys used to pray together as a family at night, or in the mornings, or for meals?” Hazel Choate: “Oh yeah, well we didn’t eat until you know, without blessing the food.” Catherine Surface: “No. No you didn’t.” Morgan Cain: “Never once?” Hazel Choate: “No, you didn’t go on, start eating. As I said, my father died when I was young. But my mother, when we got to the table, you know, we didn’t eat until she blessed the food.” Morgan Cain: “What about in the evenings before y’all went to bed? Did y’all have family prayer times together?” Hazel Choate: “Mmhumn.” Morgan Cain: “What was that like? Every night?” Hazel Choate: “Well of course. As I said, we had prayer, you know, and my mother just sit down, and my mother would read the Bible and have prayer, you know, and all. But you don’t see that nowadays.” Morgan Cain: “Would you—everyone in the family would get together in the living room in the evening?” Hazel Choate: “Wherever, just wherever. You really didn’t have to be what you call the living room cause it was whatever.” Morgan Cain: “You wouldn’t just go to your rooms and go to sleep, you’d always—” Hazel Choate: “Anytime, you know, and my mother would have prayer with us at night, you know, when we go to bed.” Morgan Cain: “Was it something you enjoyed?” Hazel Choate: “Oh yeah.” Morgan Cain: “Or some nights were you like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to’?” Hazel Choate: “Oh no.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “Speaking of my grandfather, he was a strong, spiritual man. And I remember just on Norris’s Run, you’ve been down over there haven’t you, where a lot of people lived? If someone would get sick, that’s what they’d do, walk over the mountain. Or if they had a horse, they would ride it and come. My grandfather lived up near where I was born. They’d come after him to go pray. And he would walk over that mountain and go over to Norris’s Run for anybody, any hour of the night.” Morgan Cain: “For faith healing?” Esther Jones: “They just wanted him, I mean, he would come and pray.” 49 Morgan Cain: “So special.” Esther Jones: “Special, very special.” 50 Sunday Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “Most people walked to church. They had, usually had Sunday School. And then when we were young kids, we were compelled to go to Sunday School. That was a must. And then when we got back from Sunday School, we couldn’t play cards, couldn’t play baseball. We had a baseball diamond, right across the street from us. We couldn’t go. We couldn’t play no cards or do anything that was unpleasing to God, you know, on Sundays. They really made the service day holy, you know. And they believed a lot in that. There’s so many things you just couldn’t do. And then they cooked up—on Sunday they had, that’s when you had your big special meal. So as a kid, sometimes you looked forward to Sunday because you’re going to have a whole lot of dishes and meals you haven’t been accustomed to all week.” Clyde Kessler: “Did they cook the meal on Sunday?” Sonny Johnson: “Sometimes they’d cook it Saturday, and start on Saturday night. And a lot of times they’d, you know, kill your chickens on Saturday, you know, kill um, pick up, put um in, um, back then they didn’t have no freezer refrigerator. So that was a big day. And you find that it was not only a big day for church, it was a big day for relatives coming in to visit. Seems like they came from Blacksburg area, Christiansburg, and Radford. Back when I was a kid, I was thinking Blacksburg was miles away, you know. And people coming in on Sunday from Blacksburg, I was just thinking they came from a place as far as Roanoke, you know. It was just a big thing. And they, they expected people to come in, they prepared for them you know, meal wise. And sometimes they’d prepare for um to stay overnight.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “Now, we don’t have church on Sunday night, and that used to be the very time. That’s when we had the biggest crowds. And when this little church {original Holiness Church} first opened up here and like Sunnyside, you know and all that. There was no {Holiness} churches then. White people did not have churches—I mean the Holiness. People that was Pentecostals, they did not have no church. And Sunday evening, right around five o’clock, or something early, people would come in over the mountain from every direction. We had everybody. You’d be surprised at the people that could get inside this little church, cause sometimes we’d have just as many you know, white as we did black. And we worshiped there together. And when church let out, sometimes it got out at ten o’clock, you know, at night or something. And everybody lit their own kerosene lanterns and they headed back toward home.” Morgan Cain: “I heard you say that sometimes the night services would last 5 or 6 hours. And would it be one speaker or would it be people alternating?” 51 Esther Jones: “Well it was, well a lot of it was singing, and praying, and praising the Lord, speaking and people getting saved, and at the alter praying. It was just a variety, you know, it wasn’t nobody, well I guess they would speak, I mean somebody would preach too, you know. So sometimes it was one o’clock {pm}.” Morgan Cain: “Were you ready to go home then?” Esther Jones: “Well, uh, yes! I was ready. And sometimes you would lay down on the bench and go to sleep.” Morgan Cain: “As a child?” Esther Jones: “As a child.” Morgan Cain: “Not as an adult?” Esther Jones: “Yeah, not as an adult {laughing}. So I used to think, you know, of waking up and, ‘Oh me, I got to walk all the way home.’ Most times we wouldn’t go to sleep; we were interested in what was going on.” We would come to morning service and then we would have Sunday School and Church. We’d go home, have dinner. We had chores to do because you, you had all the animals, you know: cow, horse, chickens. And everything we had to take care of that day. And then we’d get ready and walk back down for the night service. And then, back home. People came from every direction.” 52 II. Faith in the Forest Chapter Ten: Death, Funerals, & Burial Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “One other thing about the Baptist church, the funerals have always been held at the Baptist church. Very few funerals were held at the Holiness church.” Clyde Kessler: “Even if they were members of the Holiness Church?” Sonny Johnson: “That’s right, yeah. Very few.” Clyde Kessler: “Why do you think that was?” Sonny Johnson: “Because the Baptist church’s seating capacity is so much larger. That’s one noted thing you’ll notice about that community. I understand this is one reason, uh, some of the peoples wanted to build the {new} Holiness church, so they could have their funerals in their own church. It doesn’t make any difference where you have your funeral, it really doesn’t. But they all were buried in the same cemetery {Wake Forest Cemetery}, and most of them had their funerals at the Baptist Church.” Clyde Kessler: “What was a funeral like...?” Sonny Johnson: “Down there, ah, let’s see, in the early days, somebody in the community made—back, I can even remember back when babies died, someone in the community, a carpenter, would make the box and they would drape it with cloth. And they buried the kid in that.” Clyde Kessler: “Did they have much of a service?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah, not a whole lot of a service for a young kid, but for the adults that had all—all services held for the Holiness are quite emotional services. And they’re long and in a sense, they sort of rejoice: it’s a combination of rejoice and sadness. And that’s the Holiness. And the Baptist are similar, but they do—or people come from near and far. Even back in those days, people would walk long distances. They would always dress up, mostly in dark clothes. And they would put a patch on their arm for members of the family—had a marker, I think it was a heart they put on their arm...I know they wore dark suits and I don’t know whether women wore white, but women had a certain dress they had to wear. And the black—and the men wore black suits. I know that. And the family did have a marker of some sort, seems like it was a heart or something.” Clyde Kessler: “Was it just the close kin or all kin?” Sonny Johnson: “No the close kin, immediate family, but that I don’t really understand. The funeral would go on sometimes for two hours.” Clyde Kessler: “At the Baptist Church?” Sonny Johnson: “At the Baptist Church, either one, either one of them. It’s just a long funeral.” Clyde Kessler: “Why were—why would they be rejoicing?” 53 Sonny Johnson: “I don’t know. A funeral is not really for the dead, it’s for the people still living, and the minister always emphasized that fact... Rejoicing that he’s leaving this sinful world and going to a better place to live, yeah. It was a combination of both of sadness to the family for the immediate loss. And, but, the service in a sense, and I’ve seen other services that’s just strictly sad, no rejoicing at all. But it’s a combination {in Wake Forest}. But they were long and drawn out, I do remember that. And I haven’t been to too many in my lifetime from that childhood experience. Even now, funeral is the last place I’d go. But so they, then after that they go out to the cemetery and spend some time at the cemetery. And usually people would cook, oh, dishes and food and bring it to the house to serve to the family. And they still have sort of a tradition, or way of doing it now, but they don’t bring the food to the house. At the Baptist Church or the New Holiness Church—they haven’t even had a funeral there yet—after the person has been buried, the family comes back to the church and in the basement, they’re served a meal. It’s, they do it at the church because it’s more convenient than to take it to the house. And usually after they serve the meal, the family disperses and go their separate ways. That’s even now. But then, people would bring all the food around. Back then they had what they called a Wake, they would bring the body to the house, and a lot of times, once this person prepared a box and so forth… there’s one person in the community, and his name was Tom Milton, he was more or less the mortician back in the early days. And he would uh, prepare the boxes and so forth. Cause then they would take the body back to the house, you know. And they’d have a wake...but anyway, see in the early days like that, by not using embalming fluid and so forth on the body, you had to keep the house cool, you know, people would come, and the reason they’d have to come and stay awake maybe two, maybe a couple days: the body stayed in the house and people had to stay awake and they’d had to watch the body to keep rats and so forth from coming up there, getting on it or something like that. And so someone stayed and watched the body at all times. Now, black people still have what they call a wake…. They bring the body back to the church sometimes and leave it up, leave it in there all night and you know, just old tradition. I don’t see no reason for um to do it.” Clyde Kessler: “It’s more ceremonial?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah, yeah. But they’ll bring the body back from the church, and have a wake and people stay there and they come, you know, pay their respect more or less I’d say. And then the next day they just open up the church, you know, just have a funeral. But people would come near and far, and a lot of times they’d hold a body out three or four days without burial because close relatives lived a long ways away and the transportation problem of getting there and sometimes the money problem of financial—sometimes you’d have to mail money to relatives to come home for a funeral. And that held um out.” And there’s one other thing about death, when someone died, it was always everyone in the community knew who was sick. Back then, they cared for um at their home, they didn’t go to the hospital. 54 They was always cared for at the home, even long periods of time. What I was going to say when I said about the sick, once the person died, they would come through the whole community spreading the word. Don’t care what time of night it was. I remember times, people coming pecking on my grandmother’s windows and say, ‘So and so died.’ And they’d tell you, tell you the time he died. I don’t know why it was important to know the time he died and they would stop the clocks. All clocks were stopped. So the clocks were stopped until—we started them after the funeral. Some—I don’t know when they restarted it, but I know they would stop the clocks...and I know, just like now, I sometimes don’t know when somebody pass in the community, so I read the paper the next day, so. Then, you knew that night, somebody would be designated to go house to house and spread the word.” Clyde Kessler: “To immediate family or—?” Sonny Johnson: “No, wasn’t immediate family, no.” Clyde Kessler: “So if immediate family was the only person there, they had to let somebody know.” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah. They had to let everybody in the community know.” Clyde Kessler: “So they told somebody and that person went around?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah. Went around, you know. From house to house, all over the whole community.” Clyde Kessler: “Did they—were they wearing any special kind of memorial clothing?” Sonny Johnson: “I don’t think so. Sometimes you didn’t see them. They’d just come to the door, peck on the door and parents go to the door and tell um, ‘So and so passed at a certain time.’ They would even have the minute.” Clyde Kessler: “Did the white people ever come to a black person’s funeral?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah, they did. Oh, mostly the ones out of McCoy.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Do many of the church members who go to Wake Forest, are they buried in that {Wake Forest} cemetery?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Mmhumn.” Morgan Cain: “Do a lot of people come back to be buried?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Mmhum, yeah, well, since I’ve been there, haven’t that many died really. And the ones who have died there in Wake Forest are buried up there in the cemetery. Like Panny, my member, and mother Mills, was one of the members that died there. They brought her back from Baltimore.” Morgan Cain: “Mother Mills?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Yeah, that’s Eulaila’s mother-in-law. Uh, she came back, she was in Baltimore when she died and she came back and was buried there. And, so, a lot of them come back, I guess ones that die away come back. They all take up finances, and the finances they take up help support the community 55 cemetery. And they keep the cemetery cleaned off and they keep things like that.” 56 III. Fellowship, Family, & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Eleven: Family, Children, & Parenting in Wake Forest Community Chapter Twelve: Community Celebrations & Holidays Chapter Thirteen: Racial Harmony Chapter Fourteen: Elders We Cherish 57 III. Fellowship, Family, & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Eleven: Family, Children, & Parenting in Wake Forest Community Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Morgan Cain: “When you were young, did you ever get confused about the tongues. Did you ever have to ask your parents what it meant?” Esther Jones: “No. I didn’t. I don’t think so because, you know, it came so as a gift. Course I remember my brother, and my mother told me when he was little, and he had a cousin, you know when they were little. When they would see each other, they would speak in tongues. Because people would greet, they saw the grownups greeting people, you know. And so they—when they would see each other, she said they would just fall over. You know that was—cause that was little children believing what they saw their parents doing. If you, that’s hard to explain, but she tell me they was real funny. His cousin was sitting there, and they say when they seen each other they would just throw their hands up in the air and run, greet um, each other. Because that was children. You imitate what people do, you know. Although, but, you know they didn’t fully understand what it was.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “I read it’s a Folklore, old African Folklore they tell me, I don’t know for sure if that’s the truth or not. They say: It takes the whole village to raise the kid. That’s the way this is.” Morgan Cain: “Is it still that way?” Henry Eaves: “It’s still that way. You know, it’s still that way. I had a man, there was a man, but he dead now, my uncle. He was the oldest man in the community.” Morgan Cain: “Who’s that?” Henry Eaves: “His name was George Bannister. At the time, he was the oldest man in the community. And a family moved here from Giles County and this women had seven or eight kids. And she had a very, very mean boy. I mean he was big for his age, hard headed, and everything. And you couldn’t tell him nothing. So people had a way, if they didn’t have no telephone to communicate, they wrote notes. So his mother wrote this man over here {George Bannister} a note, and told him to beat him cause he wasn’t minding her. So the man read the note, took his pocket knife and pulled it, cut him off a grapevine, and commenced to whip him. So he was sitting here {years later} and he told us—well, see we all knew. So anyway, he tells us that he couldn’t stand the old man cause the man liked to beat him to death. So I asked him, I mean, at this time, he was older, this was years after it happened. I asked him, I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘why you hate the man?” He 58 said, ‘Cause my momma wrote a note.’ Said, ‘He read the note, folded it up, put it in his pocket, got his pocketknife out, and got a grapevine, and went to beating me.’ Said, ‘I’ll never forget that as long as I live.’ So I just told him, I said, ‘Jimmie,’ I said, ‘You know what?’ I said, ‘That would have never happened to you if you had of been not so corruptive, mind your momma, and know how to read.’ He looked at me and said, ‘Well, I don’t understand what you’re talking about.’ I said, ‘The reason that man whipped you, you needed to be chastised and your mother wasn’t capable of doing it. And he, being the oldest in the community, that was his responsibility: you know, to do as your momma asked him to do.’ I said, ‘Now, if you had of known how to read or had some sense, the only thing you’d have to do is pull the note out and read it and never give it to him. So he told me, he said, ‘You know what? That old man, if he was living, I tell you that if he was living, I’d go and apologize to him for hating him for so long.’ So then he didn’t want to believe that this is what really happened, but this was the same if you would go to church and you mess up in church, you got a whipping in church by the head deacon. Then when you got home, you got another whipping. You better be glad that your granddaddy didn’t see you before your daddy did. If you went to your granddaddy and then your daddy, you got three whippings for one crime. That’s just the way we were. Everybody had—the older people had authority to chastise you if you was wrong. Now a lot of times you’d say right now, if that happened they’d say child abuse. But back then, and it really helped. I used to have the devilment in me too. And another thing too, what has been my goal—and my downfall—and which has stopped: when I was a kid growing up here in this neighborhood it was probably something like maybe 250 residents. And I would say half of them were kids. And that has been my lifelong dream is just try to get this community back the way we would have a lot of kids. I’ve did everything I could, like certain people in the real estate business and everything we’re in. I encourage my own self and my wife is to make a place for kids. Cause I know for—even though I can see my kids off and gone, I don’t know if my grandkids is coming but, but as long as there’s kids, then your community can prosper. But once your kids stop, you know, once there are no more kids, it’s just dead. So what I was trying to do was see how many people I could get here, with kids. And like right now, like I told you earlier, it’s more kids here now than there was probably ten years ago. But these kids are relocated. They are kids that not from the people that was originally here. There’s one family over there, women’s got five kids {unclear} but I got one, three, no, three, four, five, six, seven, there’s probably about 16-17 now. But like I said, they are not none of the original families that I knew. They all from families from other places.” Recollections of Oscar Sherman, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Did they {elders} tell you any tales, ghost stories...?” Oscar Sherman: “They tell you ghost stories to keep you from going out at night, seeing what was going on.” 59 Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 Deacon William Brown: “But the older people—and there was a lot of uh, discipline you know, with the kids. I mean, these kids grew up when I grew up, played with kids out here, it was ‘Yes Sir’ and ‘No Ma’am.’ No body talked back. To any kid, the kids,{unclear} respected the elderly people, all the elderly people in the community really done things right. Now, seems like there’s a little break down in kids now, you know.” Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves, 2006 Howard Eaves: “We, we had strict rules when we went to church you know, certain things we didn’t do and one of them was talking and cutting up.” Jean Eaves: “That’s right. You didn’t run in and out of the church.” Howard Eaves: “No, you sat down.” Morgan Cain: “That was the way at the Holiness Church?” Jean Eaves: “No both churches. I mean, it was just, I don’t know. We were just raised different. And you could get on other people’s kids. Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 William Brown: “Every Sunday, my mom got us up and we had to go to Sunday School. And I remember walking to Sunday School and saying, ‘Man if I ever grow up, I’m not going to go to Sunday School, I’m not going to make my kids go to Sunday school. There’s three things: My kids are not going to have to go to Sunday School, they’re not going to have to eat peas—I hate peas, like green peas—they not going to have to eat peas.’ Now, I love peas now, you know. And what was that other? There was three things they didn’t have to do. And then as you grow up and you mature, you say. ‘Mmm. Man was I wrong.’ You know, that’s right. And it goes back to Proverbs, ‘Train the child the way that they should grow when they’re young, and when they get old they will not depart from it. You know.” 60 Neighbors like Family William Brown: “We moved here in 1961, and we lived in—rented a house, and then my parents bought a house: a two-story old farm house. And in February of 1966 the house caught on fire and burnt down. And all of us sat around and we had uh, like a family meeting. Cause a, such a large family, uh, matter fact, Mrs. Esther Jones’ mom, some of us stayed at her house. Some stayed at Esther’s aunt’s house, Misses Kate—who dies at 98—Fears. And so we’re all sort of a big family and people took us in and people were really nice. And so then my dad was up in Washington, this is February, working construction cause he got laid off at the plant over there. And uh, and it snowed and cold, and with construction work if you don’t work, you don’t get paid. So two uncles came down and they owned two houses out there in Bluefield where we came from. So we sit down and we talk: ‘Do we go back to Bluefield or do—’ and, and my brother Oscar spoke up, he said, ‘Hey, this is our home now. We want to stay here.’ And so a lot of people within the community, people from where I went to school at the Christiansburg Institute, they brought us clothes and shoes, and so we survived here, you know, and so forth. And a lot of those people were tied to the two churches in Wake Forest, you know.” 61 III. Fellowship, Family, & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Twelve: Community Celebrations & Holidays Community Day Recollections of Benzena Eaves, 2007 Benzena Eaves: “Wake Forest Community Day is always the first Sunday in September. It has been in existence, Wake Forest Community Day has been in existence for at least 30 years and what we do, and Reverend James Sherman, he’s the president of Wake Forest Community Club, we close the churches, and we have church. Both churches get together and we just have one service, then we have a big dinner. We rotate; we have it at the Holiness Church one year, and then the next year we have it at the Baptist Church. And we have a committee who selects who is to preach. In the past what we’ve done, we sort of rotate that also, as to who preaches on Community Day. Oscar Sherman was the vice president, but he passed, so we are going to elect a new vice president. Because he died in 2006, so we are going to elect a new vice one.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Eyvonne Spencer: “September 1st, the first Sunday in September, they have what they call Community Day.” Morgan Cain: “I’ve heard about that, what have you heard about that?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Well, since I’ve been there, they have it every September. And they have it at the Baptist church or they’ll have it at our {Holiness} church and um, the people from away from home, come home. They all take up finances, and the finances they take up help support the community cemetery. And they keep the cemetery cleaned off and they keep things like that. And then they give scholarships to the graduating seniors, and things like that. It’s nice. And it’s a beautiful time, and it’s usually the morning service.” Recollections from Arnold Eaves, on Community Day, 1982 “I would just like to say that we’re here to receive this, an offering for our community. All the many proceeds go in—from this weekend—go into our community fund. Our community fund was started—like our sister has said—five years ago. We started it as a fund that would help us, ah, rejuvenate our cemetery. And since then, the Lord has sent forth for us to move forward and do other things. We sponsor a fun day for youth of all ages to come out to be with us and this is an annual affair. Now if you haven’t attended one of our youth Saturdays on the Labor Day weekend, we truly invite each and every one of you to come and be with us. We 62 had a good, wonderful time yesterday. I even woke up this morning and I wasn’t even sore after all the things I did and I praise God for that. So you are invited. Not only do we do this as sponsor and give refreshments to everyone that day, but also in our community, we, this is the organization that sponsors all the flower-giving, and all the financial help to ones less fortunate than we are. And so we are truly—as the Lord prospers us—we’re going to try to expand and do more things to help out the citizens of this community, the ones who are in need. And we are able to show them a token of our love and so this is the one time of the year that we gather together for all of us to give. And the only thing that we ask of each family is for each family member to give us at least twelve dollars, that’s a dollar a month. That’s not very much, is it, in today’s economy? Now a lot of people give us more, we praise God for that. Also, we receive—which will be mentioned later—we receive donations from outside of the community of people that have once lived here, and we praise God for that also. So we want you to give. If this is your first time giving, we’ll accept your check for two hundred dollars {Laughing with congregation}. Praise the Lord. But if it’s not your first time giving, then please—if you will—please give us the twelve dollars and we would gladly appreciate it. But whatever you give, let’s give with love in our heart, Amen?” Congregation: “Amen.” 63 Pig Roast Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Well, there’s deep rooted traditions there, of family—” Eyvonne Spencer: “Yeah, it’s a lot of family, a lot, a lot of family traditions. It’s like: Memorial Day they have the pig roast up on the hill. And they’ve been having that—Saxton, one of the elder people living there, Saxton Grade, started the—she used to have it in her yard, a cookout. And she would always have a yard full of young people. And people talked about young people up there, they doing this and they doing that, and uh, nobody worked with her. And I didn’t go to the pig roast. I’m just not a, I don’t like outdoors that much, and especially when it’s hot, so I didn’t go. But since she died, I start going to the cookouts. Her daughter and children keep it going and they have it every Memorial Day up at the ball field there as you go into Wake Forest. And it’s usually oh, 100, 200 people. They roast a pig, that’s why it’s called the pig roast, and everybody brings food, and they have drinks and they got that group that goes up in the woods to their own little thing, you know. But it’s a beautiful little thing and it’s grown from Saxton. And so that keeps it in the community. And um, people come back from out of town, to go to that, and it’s all to honor Saxton because she started it for the young people.” 64 Christmas Recollections of Hazel Choate & Catherine Surface, 2006 Morgan Cain: “What would y’all make for Holidays, like Christmas?” Catherine Surface: “Pound Cake.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah?” Hazel Choate: “Right.” Catherine Surface: “Yeah the pound cake.” Hazel Choate: “I usually make a pound cake on Christmas.” Catherine Surface: “Yeah, pound cake and boiled custard.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah, my grandma does that.” Hazel Choate: “I don’t know whether mama ever made boiled custard.” Morgan Cain: “Did y’all have any kind of special traditions, religiously, around Christmas?” Hazel Choate: “Oh, you know, go to church.” Catherine Surface: “Your Christmas program.” Hazel Choate: “We didn’t do much exchanged gifts cause as I said, we were poor folk.” Catherine Surface: “Well, we didn’t—we just got what we could afford. I tell you, back then you didn’t go to extremes about things. People was happy to get together and whatever you could afford, you got. That was it…You got what you could afford. If you could afford a gift, you did. And if you didn’t get none, that was alright if you couldn’t afford it. But we always got together and had a good time.” Hazel Choate: “We didn’t—as I said, we didn’t have like, you know, any of that wayfarer tails of Santa coming down the chimney.” Morgan Cain: “You guys didn’t ever get gifts?”{A joke that no belief in Santa meant no gifts}. Hazel Choate: “No not really, cause as I said my daddy was sick a long time before he died, and that was back, you know, we didn’t have things. Didn’t—Mama didn’t have money to go out and buy gifts, you know.” Morgan Cain: “Did you still celebrate?” Hazel Choate: “Oh we have a good time, we’d have a program. See, my sister and I, you know, my brother, we’d have a program and you know, at home. And we’d hand out different, everything, like books, like schoolbooks, or whatever. Passed um out as gifts, you know, to one another. We didn’t—but as I said, we were poor. We didn’t have anything, no money to go out and buy gifts.” Morgan Cain: “Do you think you were really able to celebrate the reason for the season more—more before?” Hazel Choate: “Oh yeah, more. Now, they don’t pay attention to it.” Catherine Surface: “Well, I’ve taught a Sunday School class for years and I tell them my children— 65 my two kids, you know, it’s nothing wrong with buying a gift.” Hazel Choate: “No.” Catherine Surface: “But don’t go to extremes because the greatest gift was give to us and we give out of that love as a gift to our friends. It’s how you give the gift. Little or big, it’s how you give. And I tell, there nothing wrong with giving the gift because the greatest gift was give to us and then we give in love, in return.” Hazel Choate: “So anyway, as I say, we’d have programs.” Catherine Surface: “Yeah.” Hazel Choate: “My brother and sister, and I, you know, we’d have program. Pass out—at Christmas time, pass out schoolbooks as gifts, you know, to one another. No—but as I said, I don’t regret it. Because we, I think nowadays children don’t really understand and know the full meaning of what it means.” Catherine Surface: “They think it’s for, you know, I want this, I want this. You must never forget, like I tell my class, the greatest gift come to us.” Hazel Choate: “But as I said, we’d take school books and pass them out to one another as gift, you know. And—but as I said, I don’t think children really realize the—what it means, you know, they really don’t. “They don’t ever realize the true meaning of Christmas, you know.” Recollections of Oscar Sherman, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “How do you remember your first Christmas?” Oscar Sherman: “Very small. My dad always provided, he worked away from home, but he was always home—” Clyde Kessler: “Where did he work?” Oscar Sherman: “He worked on West Virginia, on Bluefield, and he always come home. And we’d always have Christmas even though it was 14 children.” Clyde Kessler: “Was it the Santa Clause style of Christmas?” Oscar Sherman: “It was Santa Clause style of Christmas and better, better point over than it is today. Mostly feast, not, not too much foolishness, you know. Clothes and that kind of thing and plenty of food. And ah, good spirits, but not a lot of junk and toys.” Clyde Kessler: “And people probably appreciated what they got a lot more. I don’t doubt that.” 66 III. Fellowship, Family, & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Thirteen: Racial Harmony Recollections of Hazel Shout & Catherine Surface, 2006 Hazel Choate: “You know, so many people came to our church. You know, we shared, you know, people lived up the creek, you know, and around. They’d come to church, you know, have service together. Cause it wasn’t such thing as white people and black people. We all—they went to church and worshiped the Lord together. Because what people failed to realize is that there’s not going to be any difference. People fail to realize that if we all die and go to heaven, there’s not going to be any black people over here and white people over here and nothing all that. It don’t work like that. But people fail to realize that.” Catherine Surface: “We live next door to black people you know. Like if just today—if we call um the N-words or bad things, Daddy would come out of his grave cause he made us—he taught us to respect Black people.” Hazel Choate: “Oh yeah. We had to respect everybody.” Catherine Surface: “You did. You didn’t look at nobody by what their color was cause we saw what you was in your heart, not on your skin.” Hazel Choate: “Like I said, when you die, there is not—if you go to heaven or if you go to hell, it isn’t going to be this black people, white people, black people, and all that. It don’t work like that. See because God is not of respect for persons; he made us all. And he didn’t make, you know—because there is a different color makes no difference. Because he’s the Lord of all of us, and people fail to realize that, you know. Because we all have to see Jesus for our self.” Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Frank Bannister: “White and colored always got along good. We worked with the whites all our lives. They were in the mines, they were, you even met um for the petition in the bathroom. Always together, always fine. I think sometimes we had the best. White people that are from Floyd are the best set of white people I’ve ever seen anywhere.” Clyde Kessler: “Well do you things are better now or worse?” Frank Bannister: “What?” Clyde Kessler: “Between Blacks and Whites around here.” Frank Bannister: "It isn’t no different. We always got along good.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 67 Morgan Cain: “Does it bother you, all these people moving out of here, does it concern you about the future of Wake Forest?” James Sherman: “Really not, because we have a lot of good white friends moving in you know and I think we sort of need that right, right relationship, you know.” Morgan Cain: “Was it like that when you were growing up? James Sherman: “No, it was just all Blacks right through here. We had a white family lived way over there. And a white family lived right below me down here. It’s been the best relationship around here. We never did have no problems, you know. Well no small communities hardly have big problems. Well I give the credit to the Christian people of this community—but not me, but the older ones—to the relationship we have. This has been a good community, I’d say that much. Good friendly community. The races hadn’t had no problems here at all. None at all. Had that respect for each other you know. And we grew up, and children married off, just more so Blacks married the Blacks, which I think is good if you don’t have a full knowledge and understanding of that part of life you know.” Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Morgan Cain: “And you think that the whole reason for blacks and whites getting along so well in this area has to do with the German ancestry, the fact that the Germans felt it was wrong—” Jimmie Price: “That was a major reason behind it and it was also that poor whites related to the slaves, and this region was about evenly divided between confederate and union sympathies during the Civil War. And most of the Germans, especially German Lutherans, wouldn’t own slaves, and they were opposed to it on religious grounds. Of course Methodist and others were. The poor whites saw themselves as being in the same boat with poor Blacks. And see, this Christianity has really benefited the races here because ‘Love thy brother, love thy neighbor as thyself.’ Not only were the coal mines a leveling ground, but the church was a leveling place. I tell people that the alter of prayer and the coal mine was two places where heaven and hell came together. You had to come to grips with your humanity, your faith, and your fellow man. You had to either acknowledge him and love him, or you had to hate him and go on your journey.” Morgan Cain: “Regardless of faith?” Jimmie Price: “Regardless of faith.” Morgan Cain: “Regardless of color?” Jimmie Price: “Regardless of color. And it had an humbling effect on our races and upon our arrogance, and our prejudices. Thanks be unto God.” Morgan Cain: “So do you think it’s something that makes it very unique?” 68 Jimmie Price: “It is unique because this is the capital of the confederacy. And we had plantations, although not as many as Eastern Virginia and Tidewater, but ah, where there was so much racism, discrimination, hate. It was not as, not as prominent here, not nearly.” Morgan Cain: “They were humble people already.” Jimmie Price: “Humble people already, and worked. They weren’t spoiled by, you know, affluence or wealth and the aristocracy that existed on plantations. And often, so ah, poor whites did feel a kindredship with the Black, freed blacks and slaves. See Wake Forest is a culture of dignity. I think I mentioned this in class. They didn’t get bitter, they became better. And that was an impact on me. That was a lesson I was taught at home. I asked my dad when I was young, I said, ‘Dad,’ I says, ‘what’s happening to Black people’s not right. They can’t eat in restaurants and they can’t uh, you know, ride the front of buses or anything.’ I said, ‘That’s not right.’ He said, ‘No it isn’t right.’ I said ‘What can we do about that?’ He says, ‘I’m not sure there’s anything you and I can do,’ but he said ‘we can treat Black people right.’ Yep. So I said, ‘Ok. That’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to treat them right.’ My parents brought me here as a baby to this little old white, African American church on Sunday afternoons. It was just customary, it was just customary that you were just neighbors, you were just friends. Uh, the Black women helped to birth our children. They nursed my momma when she came home from the hospital with one of us babies. Mom would get sick, she’d, daddy call for neighbor women, Black lady come in and cook for us, boss us youngins, threaten to tear the daylights out of us if we didn’t behave, but she loved us to death. And I mean we, we shared food, we worked in the fields together, and one African American man, Mr. Page, we called him Snake Page, George Wallace Page. And he was a fine person and he said, ‘You know the reason that we got along so good around here,’ he said, ‘We were all in the same boat’.” Morgan Cain: “Economically?” Jimmie Price: “Economically, spiritually, what you did for a living, and you just had that kind of respect.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “Wake Forest, to me, is, it’s a very sacred place, even right today.” Morgan Cain: “Do you have any personal theory why it’s so neighborly and why people are that way?” Henry Eaves: “Well, yeah I do. My personal theory was that—my father used to work in the coal mines and he told me one time about the theory of people here, both black and white. Like I said, most of the men—black and white—all worked in the coal mine. And the simple solution was that, he said, that once you go inside that coal mine, you was all the same color. So I’ve never really witnessed no heavy prejudices living here, although we going to find it anywhere you go, you know, to a small community. But here, no. You might have a man calling you a name that you don’t like, but he giving you the last bit of food he got in his 69 house. So you can get mad at him for calling you a name, but you probably get mad at him for not feeding you. And so, that’s the way I’ve always looked at it and it’s always been that way. It’s always been neighboring and helping and very supportive of just about everybody round here. There has never been no tension here. Because, I tell you why: when I was growing up here, only white family that lived here lived back beyond here. And they were sort of isolated, but they had to use the facilities of coming through the community. And there was no tension. Alright, down in the community of Long Shop, you’re familiar with that right? There was one black family living down there. And they never had no tension. The coal mine did the most to wipe out prejudice. I ain’t going to say it never existed cause coal mining was going on when I was born. I’ve never witnessed no prejudice. All the prejudice I witnessed was outside the home, outside Wake Forest. But I never witnessed it.” Morgan Cain: “But there were coal mines everywhere though, you know, do you think there was anything else that was special about this area or Wake Forest in particular that made the relationships so—” Henry Eaves: “Well, the people in general. I would say that we’ve always had this loving, kindness, and being peaceful. And then another thing too, I think what happened was that before the coal mine, it was probably doing, manifest from slavery—working on plantation, by the Blacks having white slave owners. Then, and the telling part about this is that very, very few Blacks left this vicinity that was, that the slave owners gave the land to.” Morgan Cain: “How is it changing the community, having more white people in here?” Henry Eaves: “When, I guess when I was up to, I was probably 10, 12 years old, one white person lived here. Now it’s about half and half. That is a change right there. Well, change in the community with more white people here is, they’re helpful but they don’t get involved like the Blacks here. Although, I would think that they would. Because that’s just, you know, from what I know of them, that’s just the way I perceive them being. They’re nice, nice people.” 70 III. Fellowship, Family, & Heritage For a Community of Believers Chapter Fourteen: Elders We Cherish Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “They {elders} just looked out for everybody around here, and it dawns on you after a period of time that the older generation was due respect. And the older men took care of the community whether they was kin to them or not. And this is some of the things I tried to pass on to, to kids that’s under me, people that’s under me, like my children. Right now I’m passing on to my grandkids. But this place to me is one of the most blessed places I think on this earth, to me. That’s how I feel about it.” Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Did they {elders} seem like God fearing people that lived there?” Jean Eaves: “Yeah.” Howard Eaves: “Oh yeah!” Jean Eaves: “If they weren’t god fearing—.” Howard Eaves: “They put fear in us. {Laughing} Cause we feared them.” Howard Eaves: “Yeah. We had a lot of people in the community we called Aunt and Uncles.” Jean Eaves: “Yeah, they weren’t our Aunt, yes—” Howard Eaves: “I was grown before I realized they weren’t my aunt and uncle, {laughing} and all my life I’ve called them Aunt and Uncle. And that’s how the community—and they shared the youth. You know, each church, if they needed some kids to come sing or something, they’d just grab the others. They didn’t care nothing about—” Jean Eaves: “Which church they were.” Howard Eaves: “You know, wasn’t that many kids involved.” Jean Eaves: “Mmhmn.” Recollections of James Sherman About Laura Page & Aunt Lizzie, 2007 James Sherman: “There’s an old building right there, OLD building right above the church, you may have noticed it with a rusty top and all.” Morgan Cain: “Right. I’ve noticed it before.” James Sherman: “That was my grandmother’s home {Laura Eaves Page}. She was like a mother to the community, I mean people just come there you know and they’d just sit around, and the kids would get outside and the old folks did on the porch and inside the house. Yeah, it was just so harmony back, back in the early days, that’s right, that’s right. People hadn’t gotten so wild as they have.” 71 Morgan Cain: “I was going to ask you if you had someone who was sort of a spiritual hero in your life growing up around Wake Forest.” James Sherman: “Yeah, my aunt, Aunt Lizzie Eaves. She was a Sherman, married an Eaves, my daddy’s sister: Christian role model, she’s a fine women, lived a good life, yeah... She always had a little something to give, lend a helping hand, you know, same with my grandmother. Yeah, those two was, was a better role model—yeah.” Recollections of Jimmie Price About Kate Fears, 2006 Jimmie Price: “Sister Kate Fears, a daughter of a coal miner whose ancestors were slaves down at Kentland Farm, which is owned by Virginia Tech. She was married to a coal mine operator, African American coal mine operator. She was—she felt called to preach at an early age. And she began to preach in Wake, Wake Forest Church, she preached in homes. She was widely respected, wise, loving, gracious. She was a mentor for many of us. She helped about 7 or 8 young ministers get started in the ministry.” Morgan Cain: “That’s amazing” Jimmie Price: “She a wonderful women. She held Sat—Sunday afternoon services in her home, her and her husband. Black and White, you know, multiracial, mixed-race services. But Sister Kate was—she was not highly educated. I think she went through elementary school, I’m not sure she went to any high school, but she was a very spiritual, warm, loving and gentle woman who had great wisdom. And she was taught by her grandparents and her parents. but she, she really emphasized that if you’re a Christian you can’t hate your brother, you can’t hate your sister. That’s powerful.” Morgan Cain: “Is she still well thought of and well known by the people in the area.” Jimmie Price: “Sister Kate? Absolutely. She’s almost a hallowed figure around here. You could go in that house when she was in there, now you don’t worship people, but it felt like a church. You could feel the Holy Spirit when you went inside that door, and the love, and the warmth, and the welcome that wonderful lady shared with anybody that would enter her door. It was an atmosphere that you—it was charged with goodness and faith. It’s incredible the effect that she and her faith had on people and you know you hear about false religion and shyster preachers who are out for the money, and they’re just ripping people off. There was very little of that in this neighborhood, thankfully.” Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves about Kate Fears, Aunt Amy & Uncle Grant, 2006 Howard Eaves: “But Kate was Holiness?” Jean Eaves: “Yeah, she was Holiness.” Howard Eaves: “Your minister?” Jean Eaves: “Yeah she was a minister, yeah. You probably heard a lot of her.” 72 Morgan Cain: “I’ve heard of her. People speak highly of her.” Jean Eaves: “Yeah” Howard Eaves: “Yeah, she was, she was—” Jean Eaves: “And his grandmother was highly thought of too, that’s Aunt Amy. I don’t know whether you’ve heard too much of her, she was the midwife and everything in Wake Forest during that period of time.” Morgan Cain: “And this was the women who stayed with the Baptist church.” Howard Eaves & Jean Eaves: “Yeah.” Jean Eaves: “She stayed. Now her husband, Uncle Grant, {Howard and Jean laugh} he stayed at the Holiness church, and see I tease him {referring to Howard} about him all the time cause see he likes to talk and his granddaddy loved to talk. {Hard laughter follows}. Howard Eaves: “I was named after him. That’s why I talk.” Jean Eaves: “Anyways, you know we just laughing about that.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah.” Recollections of Henry Eaves About William Christmas Eaves & Amy Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “This tree right here {pointing to a tree standing in front of the right side of Henry’s home}, this maple tree was planted—my father {William Christmas Eaves} told me that he and his father {Grant Eaves} was clearing some land off down at Whitethorne, and he pulled up just a twig, swag, sapling. One of them or my grandma planted it. So that stood out. And then after I built this house, my father had a stroke. He lived, he had a stroke in October and he died in July. That year, the tree didn’t bear a leaf (that spring and summer that he was sick, you know). He was comatose for quite a bit, well August—just about all of summer and spring. And it just, little buds just came out on it, but never bloomed out. So I had, I was concerned about it, so I had a tree surgeon come down from Tech. And they came down and checked it out, he said, ‘Well ain’t nothing wrong with your tree.’ The only thing they could say is it was in remission. And the next year, well after he passed away, the next year the tree come back like it always did, you know and everything. But that is just part of the history that is right here in this family, that I witnessed. And my grandmother, she was a midwife and they tell me that she was the, she birthed probably two-thirds of the population: black and white. Cause they didn’t have no doctors.” Morgan Cain: “What’s was her name?” Henry Eaves: “Her name was Amy Eaves. But she was a midwife around here. And she was a midwife around here like for black and white.” Morgan Cain: “Did you have any certain elder or certain group of elders in the church that were really inspiring to you when you were young?” 73 Henry Eaves: “I had, my grandmother Amy, was very inspiring to me. And then there was my uncle Hendersen Jones, Frank Bannister, and just about all of the deacons that was in the Baptist church was very inspiring to me.” Recollections of Eyvonne Spencer About Esther Jones, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Who’s someone who had a religious or just role model, hero, influence on you from the community?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Esther Jones.” Morgan Cain: “Ester Jones.” Eyvonne Spencer: “It’s strange about Esther Jones. When I first went to church over there, I didn’t like her. Oh, I didn’t like her. I said, ‘That’s got to be the meanest women in the world.’ Just did not like her. And uh, because she says what’s on her mind. And I love that about her. Cause I’m like that, and I love people who are like that. But it was just, I don’t know, something about her. I did not like that lady, and as I kept going and kept going and got to meet her personally, I just fell madly in love with her and found out she is one of the most unique—and I tell everybody, if I had 10 members in the church like her, I would never want for nothing. I mean she is a beautiful person, and she tells you what’s on her mind, still does. And I love that about her. And if I make a mistake, you know, I tell her, ‘You feel free—’ because she’s my mother. I adopted her as my mother. And uh, she, uh, corrects you, and she’ll tell you, you know, something, you know, and you can look it up and take it to the bank because she knows what she’s talking about. But if, I, I would love to—she’s faithful. She fixes communion. She’s 89, 83, eighty something, she’s eighty, on up in the age, eighty six or something like that. But anyway, she fixes communion every first Sunday. She’s the first person there. I try my best to leave my house to beat her to church {laughing} and I cannot beat her, I don’t care, I don’t care whether or not I can beat her to the church, but she’s there and she never says, ‘I don’t feel like doing this and I don’t feel like doing that.’ And … she never says, ‘I’m too sick to fix communion,’ and she’ll call me before and she’ll say, ‘Are we going to have communion Sunday? Are we going to do this?’ Because she had communion on third Sunday cause I wasn’t there the second Sunday. And she calls and she says, ‘We didn’t have—we had communion on third Sunday, we still going to have it on the first Sunday?’ And you say, ‘Yeah,’ and when you get there, everything is dressed out, communion is fixed, and she just, she’s my role model. She’s my role model. I love the lady. I respect her highly and she loves the church. She loves the people and if there’s anything she can do, she’ll help you. But we call her—I call her the monarch of the community.” Morgan Cain: “What was in the newspaper, the matriarch? {Referring to a newspaper article that included an interview with Reverend Spencer, in which she mentions Ester Jones as the community “matriarch”}. 74 Eyvonne Spencer: “Matriarch! Yeah, matriarch of the community. Yeah, that’s what I told the girl when she wrote the thing...she’s the leader of the community. And then like in our district church, our church mother in the general church: the big church in West Virginia, our church mother died. And I went to the Bishop—and the Bishop and I get along pretty well—and I went to him and I told him, ‘I know you’re looking for a mother—a church mother.’ I says, and uh, ‘I know it’s got to go before a vote or whatever,’ I says, ‘But if you really want one,’ I said, ‘put Esther Jones down as district mother of the West Virginia district.’ And he did. So she’s our district mother now of the West Virginia District. But to me she’s a special lady. And uh, I like her, I like her a lot. Esther—she belongs to everybody in the community.” Recollections of Benzena Eaves About Frank & Langston Bannister, 2007 Benzena Eaves: “Deacon Frank Bannister was one of the early deacons. And he—how do I want to put it?—he was a great worker in the church. He was a deacon and was responsible for the upkeep of the church.… Frank Bannister—I’m trying to think of the word I’m going to use—he was one of the early deacons, and I have, also I have a picture of him. And he and his wife, Ravella, they were devoted to that church and they were instrumental in keeping the early church open. So he had a son, Langston Bannister, who also is a minister, Reverend Langston Bannister, but he lives in Toledo, Ohio. So when we, he found out that the church had reopened and we had a heating problem, he donated the funds to take care of us getting a new heating system. So I just wanted you to put that in there because that was really nice of him to do that.” Morgan Cain: “Does he ever come down here and visit?” Benzena Eaves: “Yes. He comes down. Langston Bannister preached at our church in 2006.” Morgan Cain: “Oh did he? Did he come down for revivals also?” Benzena Eaves: “Yes. And he comes down when we have Community Day.” Recollections of William Brown About Frank Bannister & James Sherman, 2007 William Brown: “And, and even as a young man, 22, 22 years old, I would see Mr. Bannister mowing the grass, cleaning the flowers out, cause it used to be really pretty around that church. He had flowers, had this and that. And Mr. Bannister would work all day on a Saturday, you know, keeping the irises cleaned out, it was flowers all down the bank, flowers up this side and everything. You know, cause I would ride by and blow the horn at him, but I’d say, ‘Man, that old man is tough.’ Morgan Cain: “If you had to say—you can name two or three if you want—but if you had to pick one person in the community who’s been a real role model or hero to you, could you name one?” William Brown: “James Sherman. The pastor—associate pastor at the church. He is the nicest man. It would be him.” Morgan Cain: “Do you want to explain why you picked him?” 75 William Brown: “Knowing him, I went to school with his daughter, and knowing him over the years, and knowing how straight forward, how honest, how dependable, and how caring he is: this guy’s everything. I mean, some people will tell you, I think if you talk to, talk to Mr. {Henry} Eaves, and he says, if somebody asked you what Jesus looked like, we would tell you that it would be James Sherman. Yeah. He’s just that kind of man.” Recollections of Carolyn Spraggins About Family Names & James Sherman, 2007 Carolyn Spraggins: “Well you know when you—I know that we have been excepted in the community, but when you go to a community, like we moved here in the community and there are people: the Shermans, the Eaves, and that community has always known those names. They’re very familiar with the older generations, younger generations, and so forth, um, that um, when you, when you join in with that community, you’re a part of that community, but that, that older part is what is always going to be back to that mainframe of the community. Like um, Reverend Sherman and Henry and all of them. They—people know their names all over the place and it’s just, it’s just a wonderful thing that you’ve lived in a place all your life and to be so well known that it’s, it’s an asset in itself, you know, in that community. Cause it was a lady—where was I?—I went out somewhere the other day, was a lady asking me did I know, I told um, ‘I know some Eaves but I have just moved here. I hadn’t lived here all my life, but I know some Eaves.’ I don’t think it was the ones she was talking about. This lady was um, what I’m saying is, most places you go around, all over in Virginia and you run into people and you get in conversation with people, sometime and just in general conversation a name pops up and the two specific names that always pop up is Eaves or Sherman. And that just goes to show that their, their, um generation is so, I mean—their name is so widespread from so many generations: Their father’s father’s father or whatever and different areas people have worked with them or whatever. It’s like, you know, they’re well known here.” Morgan Cain: “Yeah, do you feel like there’s a respect for names in this part?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah. Yes, yeah, and Reverend Sherman that is with my husband {at the Baptist Church}, people love him so dearly, he such a—he reminds me so much of my dad. He does; my dad was small like him and he was really humble—everybody loved him.” Morgan Cain: “Who is somebody that you feel like is a role model or hero to you in the community? Reverend Sherman?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah, I would have to say Reverend Sherman. Both religiously and just as a person in general. Yeah.” Morgan Cain: “Why is that?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Because, some of the characteristics I just mentioned like my dad. He’s—you never hear anyone say a bad word about him, and that, to live a lifetime, he’s in his 80’s, to live a lifetime, and my dad was 93 when he passed, to live a whole lifetime and people know you and respect you and love you. 76 To live that long, and people care that much about you, it’s a special—there something special in you. And he has that. Very humble, very sweet person. And will do anything he can whether he feel like it or not. If somebody asks him to do something, he out there trying to do it.... And he’s so considerate of other people, he’s just, I don’t know, he’s a very special person.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer About Reverend Beamer, 2007 Eyvonne Spencer: “Um, I say, in about 1978 I had gotten sick, and I went into the hospital and the pastor over there {at Wake Forest Pentecostal Church}, Elder William Beamer, came to the hospital and uh, visited me. And I live in Pulaski and none of the members in Pulaski had came to the hospital—the pastors, none of the members at all. And when, uh, Elder Beamer came, which is a bishop now, him and his wife, it was so family oriented or whatever. They were, uh, such beautiful people. And I said, ‘I want to belong to their church,’ and this was in ‘78. And I resigned from the church that I was going to and a—because they was things going on there also that a, I didn’t like. But the pastor was beautiful and I decided to go join Wake Forest Church and I went over in ‘78, and asked him could I join his church. And he said, ‘Yeah,’ and I became a member.” Morgan Cain: “Now the Reverend Beamer, that was who was there when you came {to the Pentecostal Holiness Church}?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Yeah. Awesome man. Yes. Morgan Cain: “Still living?” Eyvonne Spencer: “He’s still living. Awesome man. He’s not well but he’s still living. Powerful man.” Morgan Cain: “Was he the reverend there for a good while before you came—” Eyvonne Spencer: “32 years.” Morgan Cain: “32 years?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Yeah. 32 years. He raised his children there at the church. And they came from North Carolina. And they had his wife, Gay, and his children: Freddie, Darrel, Freda, and Daniel. And Daniel was our special little boy. He was a special child and he’s 30—might be 38 now. And he’s special. Everybody loved Daniel, but everyone loved the Beamers. And they were beautiful people. And he preaches for me sometimes and I preach for him sometimes. And his son is a minister in Fries and I preach for his son and his son preaches for me, so we just, we keep it in the family.” 77 IV. The Wake Forest Churches Chapter Fifteen: The Baptist Church Chapter Sixteen: The Holiness Church 78 IV. The Wake Forest Churches Chapter Fifteen: The Baptist Church {Picture Provided by Carmen Jones-Clad} Recollections of William Brown, 2007 William Brown: “I can remember, think it was Reverend Cobbs, it was either Reverend Travis or Reverend Cobbs that had that church when we came here. Cause I knew there was Paul Johnson, Reverend Johnson—he’s got a big church in Roanoke. No, he came afterwards, see there probably 25...years ago, 25, yeah, or 30 years ago. But it was Reverend—I want to say Reverend Cobbs, and that time. Then, they had church second and forth Sundays cause Cobbs preached somewhere else the first and third Sundays and he came here. He lived over in Pulaski County. And I didn’t go a whole lot during that time. I mean, on occasion. My mom went to that church all the time, I mean, she just went there all the time. Matter of fact, my dad’s funeral was conducted in that church there in Wake Forest, and I guess at that particular time, I really got ingrained in that church...almost like it’s a special place. The church closed about five years ago. It was open, closed about two years, and um, the membership, just, just fell off. I mean, you know, you go up, there’s the pastor, there’s myself, and maybe my mom, maybe my wife, and that was about it. And uh, so I was sort of in charge of everything there at the time and uh, the uh, we—I just told the pastor, ‘Hey, we just closing the church.’ It takes money to pay the bills and things like this, and bringing the money in. 79 But prior to that closing, probably uh, I want to say like‘90, it might have been later than that—uh, earlier than that, but um, I remember uh, Deacon Bannister, who was up there, uh, the church had closed down and his wife had died and he was kind of elderly. And uh, I remember cutting the grass and he came to see me. He says, ‘Well, I want to try to open the church up, wanted to know if you’d help me?’ And I said, ‘Well, let me think about it.’ And, um, so a couple weeks later, he and the minister at the time, Reverend Croslin, came to see me, and uh, and so I took it as this way, I says, you know, I always had a lot of respect for Mr. Bannister, and I didn’t know Reverend Croslin. He was an older man too, so in talking to him, I gained respect for him. And I says, ‘You know, when God sends one messenger after you, and you don’t respond, then he sends two messengers after you, it’s time to respond and help this.’ And uh, so we uh, opened the church up at that particular time, and membership did not grow, I mean, it just whittled on 3 or 4 people and like that. And Mr. Bannister ended up in a nursing home, and uh, cause he would come to church on two canes. And he was in a nursing home for about a year, and we had services like the second and forth Sundays, two Sundays a month. My mom would go and so forth and uh, then one day probably about a year, that man got out of the nursing home, got back in his home, and he came to church. Like I told Mr. Bannister, I said, ‘You know,’ I think he might have been 78, 79 or something like this. I said, ‘Mr. Bannister,’ I said, “You know what? God just ain’t through with you yet.’ See, this church flourished cause anytime you go to the nursing home, and people says, ‘I just don’t think he’s going to make it.’ And he gets back out and walks with two canes. I mean he was just an amazing man. And uh, so eventually, he ended up back in the nursing home and uh, the church flourished there a little bit. We tried, and tried, and tried. There was seven. {Reverend} Turner, a young man, tried for a couple times. We had a couple programs and things. People came to the programs, but after that they didn’t come to church.” 80 Reopening & Reverend Spraggins Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 William Brown: And so later on down up into about 5 years ago, we closed the church down and Reverend Spraggins came to the community; church sitting up there empty. He had taken it upon himself to mow the grass and stuff. It had gotten kind of high and things like that. So I seen him up there and in the church and sat down and talk to him, you know, and he talked for about an hour or two, and we prayed about it and things like this. And I said, ‘Let me tell you something, there’s not much money here.’ And he said, ‘Well, I’m not looking for money, I’m looking to save souls.’ ‘But if that’s what you want to do.’ And then eventually, he worked on the church and then we got together a meeting of people in the community. What I was always told by Deacon Bannister: if that church ceased to become the church, the property went back to the original people who designated, you know, 100 years ago for the church. And so, number of people, Mrs. {Benzena} Eaves helped me send stuff out to everybody in the community, so a number of people came. But, some of the older people there, uh, and some of them are since passed, and it’s well, all the trustees of this church had died and we had to establish new trustees to do this and that. And uh, so as it went on: ‘You wanna be it, no, I don’t wanna be it.’ Nobody wanted to be a trustee, I guess they felt cause of the responsibility. Now I’m a trustee at the church. And I got an attorney in town, uh, and he donated his services, Marshall Frank, in getting all the legal things, and that was a big help to the church. So uh, my brother-in-law’s a trustee, uh, Mr. and Ms. Eaves, Mrs. Spraggins is a trustee, James Sherman—Reverend Sherman is a trustee. Morgan Cain: “Well, you didn’t tell the story quite like I heard it the first time, I think from James Sherman told, he said when you saw uh, Reverend Spraggins up here cleaning, you got a little upset before you found out what he was doing.” William Brown: “Well, not upset. Concerned, like, ‘What’s going on?’ You know, like, ‘What’s going on?’ You know, and he was telling me, we got to talking and Hiawatha Spraggins has a personality that you can warm up to real quick, cause that’s the first time I’d met him. Cause I had the key, I went and opened the church up and we went and sat, and things like this, and uh, sort of warmed up to him, and he said—talking about wanted to open it up and so forth and I said, ‘Oh yeah.’ You know. And uh, so eventually uh, I think it was September almost three years ago is when we had the opening of the service. Quite a few people came. Uh, people from other churches and things. We had a pretty, pretty exciting time that particular Sunday. And we start opening up and seem like the membership and the membership started to grow, and then the membership just started falling off, you know. Uh, no one would commit to coming on. I don’t know how many people we baptized. We baptized um in this creek over here by this church and uh, people would commit, go to church, I mean some we baptized, we baptized um, they came back two or three times and they haven’t been back since. And I don’t know what the problem is. 81 And it seems like, you talking about drawing a crowd, all you got to do is say you’re having some special event and you’re going to feed, and people ain’t been to church since the last feeding, they’ll come to that feeding, and things like that. Yeah, but you can’t feed every Sunday, then that would get old. And then another thing too, is just like Reverend Spraggins and his wife were new to the community and everybody comes out for the newness and then, cause I was talking to him the other day, says {to Reverend Spraggins}, ‘Yeah, you were new and people came out. You talked to people. Now you old hat, you’re just like everybody else in the community. And it’s two situations, you can look at this: I haven’t been to church probably in about 5 weeks because about every Sunday my wife and I—there’s about 17 churches in district E and we visit to let people, you know, know that I’m running for Board of Supervisors. And I mean the Community Church—their service was one hour and five minuets. Our services up there start at 11:00, and sometimes we got out at 1:30. Uh, {I} was up at the Community—Fairview Community Church, if you go on up where you went to Sunnyside Church, if you on up there further—now the church, Sunnyside Church, I will be at that church next Sunday—but you go on up to Fairview Community.” Morgan Cain: “Where Jimmie Price preaches?” William Brown: “You know Jimmie Price?” Morgan Cain: “I do.” William Brown: “He’s a good man! So, uh, his service, they had Sunday School from 10:00 to 11:00. At 12:10 people were out. And I don’t know whether people—and it’s two different things: Seems like our services are longer {at Wake Forest Baptist Church}. And I don’t know whether people have so many things to do, don’t want to sit there that long. Jimmie Lee, I mean, uh, preached a wonderful sermon {at Fairview Community Church}, you know. And uh, there was some people that came up at the end. One lady had cancer, and she was taking chemo, and she came up and there was another lady there with another problem. So two or three people came up and he anointed with oil and prayed, next thing I know, we’re standing out in the parking lot talking to people and things like that. So I don’t know why people don’t go or not go or what their question is {to Wake Forest Baptist}. I think Reverend Spraggins is a very good man. I think his heart is in the right place. And this community, the community of Wake Forest, in the beginning, when we moved here in 1961, it seems as if that um everybody moved in here like outsiders at the time. And even, you’ll talk to some people—even Mr. Bannister, I don’t know how many years he was here, and we said, ‘Well maybe, Mr. Bannister, if we went around and visited people—” and told him. ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’ve been here a long time, real long’ {Mr. Bannister points out that you can make friends, become familiar, and make house visits, but will still be “outsiders”}. So outsider sort of stuck in my mind and uh, because uh, a number of the people there are related to each other by cousins or something, and I don’t know whether this outsider thing that you’re not really in the clique just like something that hangs, you know, in the shadows.” 82 Recollections of Benzena Eaves, 2007 Benzena Eaves: “The church was closed for I guess it was about three years. And then it was reopened. There was a meeting before the church reopened on Sunday, September the 14th in 2003. And there was a meeting before it reopened, and do you want me to give you the names of the people that was at that meeting before the church reopened? Half of these people were not members, but came to see what was going to happen to the church, and be supporters.” Morgan Cain: “Sure” Benzena Eaves: “Ok, in August a meeting was called for the purpose of selecting trustees and the restoration of the foundation of the church. Present at this meeting was Reverend Hiawatha Spraggins, Carolyn Spraggins, William Brown, Ann Brown, Reverend Oscar Sherman, Dorothy Sherman, Henry Eaves, Benzena Eaves, Leon Sherman, Earnestine Sherman, and Brenda Felder. And presiding was Deacon William Brown, who at that particular time was the only deacon that the church had, because when the church closed and saved, um—closed for three years, Deacon William Brown kept the lights on. He paid the light bill out of—on his own so the power would remain at the church. Because at that time, the church had no pastor. The only members was Deacon William Brown and his mother, Ulysses Brown, and she was the mother of the church. And so at this meeting Deacon Brown gave the history of the church and he stated that Deacon Frank Bannister told him if the church did not function as a church, the land would go back to the owners who made the donation of the land on which the church was built. And that land was given to build the church by the Cowan and the Kent family. That’s all that was recorded in our minutes.” Morgan Cain: “So in the deed to the land, it says that the church had to be running?” Benzena Eaves: “Yes.” Morgan Cain: “For the land to be in possession?” Benzena Eaves: “Yes. We have a deed stating that and I do have a copy of the deed in my files {See Appendix E-1} And it was stating that if the church did not function as a church, then the land would go back to the owners who donated the land and also in here it talks about Ms. Cowan—how Margie Kent, how she was instrumental in giving the land to the freed slaves to start a church, so that they could build a church.” Morgan Cain: “Was the primary reason for the church closing, I guess because there wasn’t a minister?” Benzena Eaves: “Yeah. The present pastor who was there, he left, he resigned. And there was only the Brown family, was the only family there. And they tried to keep the church going, but since there was no pastor the church closed. See Deacon Brown had a sister, her name was Marlene and she passed away and then that left Deacon Brown and his mother, and that was primarily the reason because there was no pastor and very few members. And what members were there, they left, and that just left the Brown family.” 83 Morgan Cain: “Had you and Henry worshiped there up unto 2000?” Benzena Eaves: “No, ok, what had happened when I first moved to Wake Forest in 1966, I was a member—I became a member at the Wake Forest Baptist Church. But I only remained there for two years. I left and went to the Holiness church.” Morgan Cain: “Here in Wake Forest?” Benzena Eaves: “Yeah. And then, uh, when the church reopened, I did not become a member. It opened in 2003, I did not become a member until 2004. August 2004. But Henry became a member when they first reopened, because they reopened in September, September 2003. Let me tell you what happened with that. The day that the church reopened, P.K. Adams, who, Margaret Kent is his Aunt, he came to my house and presented the church with another Bible.” At that meeting, Reverend Hiawatha Spraggins was introduced as the new pastor. And the way Reverend Spraggins became pastor: Reverend Spraggins came from West Virginia and uh, he stated that God sent him to Virginia to start a church. And the way that Henry and I met Reverend Spraggins: Reverend Spraggins wanted to build a house, so we owned some property because we had started our own real estate business here in Wake Forest. We purchased—and we were the only ones first in Wake Forest to start a real estate business. And so we owned 3 acres of land on Bannister Lane, no, on Branch. We own 3 acres of land on Branch St. That’s right by the Holiness Church, right behind it. We also own three acres of land on Bannister Lane.” Morgan Cain: “Which is where?” Benzena Eaves: “On that way. So Reverend Spraggins, someone told him, directing him to us and he wanted to purchase some land to build a house. And so we sold him 2 acres of land on Branch St. and he stated that he, well he was given the church through Deacon William Brown. Because when he came to see—talk to us about the property, he informed us that he was also a minister. So since the church—and he said he was retired. He was a retired coal miner. So we invited him to go to Coal Miner’s Day. They had Coal Miner’s Day out at McCoy, and we invited him to go. And then, while there, I asked him—I informed him there was a church that—The Wake Forest Baptist Church—it was vacant because we did not have a pastor. So Revered Spraggins and I went to the church and we just stood in the yard and we held hands, and we prayed and asked God to, if it was his will to, that Revered Spraggins would pastor the church. So then Revered Spraggins started cutting the grass and trimming the trees and he worked at the church, no pay. It was because, it was as if God sent him to take care of that church. And so people in the neighborhood and passing by would notice, ‘Who is this man that’s up there working at that church and why was he doing all of that work?’ And Mother Brown went to him and asked him: ‘Who sent you up here? Why are you on this church ground? You don’t belong up here.’ And he told her that God sent him to do that work, and so I went to Deacon Brown and I told him, I said, ‘There is a minister that’s up there. He’s been working on that church and uh, cutting the grass, trimming the trees, just taking care of it. There was even a crack in the cement and Revered Spraggins fixed it.’ So Deacon Brown 84 said, ‘I’m going and meet him.’ And so they met and Deacon Brown carried him inside the church and just showed him and told him the history of the church, asked him whether he’d like to be the pastor. We had never heard him preach. We did not know anything really about him except that he was a retired coal miner, had moved from West Virginia. But Deacon Brown had faith that this was who God wanted to preach, and so the church was given to Reverend Hiawatha Spraggins. And then, as I said, we had a meeting in August and decided that the church should reopen Sunday, the second Sunday in September, September the 14th, 2003. And then we, and at that meeting also, Revered Spraggins’ wife, Sister Carolyn Spraggins, and she spoke as a ministers’ wife. And she said on March 17th, 2002: ‘God called Revered Spraggins into the ministry.” And she stated that she would support her husband and work with the church. And the trustees were selected because as we saw on the deed, all of the former were passed, had died. And so we needed new trustees. And the trustees selected were: William Brown—this is the order appointing the church trustees: ‘This day appeared The First Baptist Church, Wake Forest, Montgomery County is a petition for the appointment of the trustees: William H. Brown Senior, Henry W. Eaves, Tiny Marie Grimshaw, Carlin J. Spraggins, Benzena L. Eaves, all of Montgomery County, Virginia, as trustees of the First Baptist Church in Wake Forest.” {With a letter in hand} This letter went out to people. Dated October 12, 2003, and it was a letter letting people of Wake Forest as well as other churches know that Wake Forest had reopened and that we were celebrating Founders’ Day. And we had something that had, to my knowledge, had never happened before: we had two brothers to preach at the same time on our Founders’ Day, and they were Reverend James Sherman…and his brother Oscar Sherman. They were going to preach on Founders’ Day, November 2, 2003 and both brothers were preaching, like I said, at the same time. And the Wake Forest Choir was going to sing and this was a kind of a way for us to get funds for the church, for the work that needed to be done. And also we wanted to know since the church had been reopened, we gained seven new members. So members were starting to come in.” Recollections of Carolyn Spraggins, 2007 Carolyn Spraggins: “When we first came here, he {Reverend Hiawatha Spraggins} was a, he had just started, uh, pasturing. I mean, not pasturing, preaching; uh, being ordained as a preacher. And um, we, he was back, going back and forth from West Virginia, because different churches in West Virginia had asked him to preach since he didn’t have a church of his own. And we were going back like um, I’m trying to remember how many different churches he went to in Princeton, West Virginia. And I was working, I was, had already found a job here. I was working here, and on the weekends we would go down sometimes that Saturday and spend the night or either go early that Sunday morning for him to preach and then come back here, um, every Sunday. 85 And um, I enjoyed traveling, going, you know, going back and forth with him to church like that. But with me working, and I would do that on Sunday, I would have to be ready to work on Monday, so it was starting to be tiring after a while and I’m thinking to myself, ‘Ok, we just moved here, we don’t know anyone here, so I don’t know what I’m going to do with having to go back and forth like that, working.’ I said, ‘We don’t know anybody here, so he’s not going to get a church here in Virginia, so we’re going to be doing this for a while. How am I going to manage this?’ And you know God is so awesome. For him to get a church here in Virginia as quickly as he did, and he didn’t know anyone. That was, to me, I just consider that to be a miracle. Because we had, we did that for about a year I’m thinking, going back and forth like that. We had rented a double wide trailer in Christiansburg until we found a home, and um, in the meantime, that’s when I’m saying he met Henry {Eaves} and he’ll {Reverend Spraggins} have to tell you cause I don’t remember how he said he met them. But after he met them, um, I think Benzena {Eaves} mentioned something—he told me Benzena mentioned something to him about this church down here didn’t have a pastor, been closed for a while. And um, I don’t know what they did from there on, but next thing I know, he told me he had been down there working in the yard, cutting grass and doing different things and talking to different people. And next thing I know, he told me they had asked him to be the pastor at this church down here. And I said, ‘Oh my God.’ And he said it had been closed, you know, for a while, so we were going to have to do some work to get ready to open. And we went down and we did painting little different, little fix-up things and it just slowly came along. As you could tell, it had been closed, and hadn’t been used for a long time. And my, myself, and him, it was different people, would go down and essentially we got it—opened the doors for people to start worshiping in. Since then, God has brought it from a mighty, mighty long way. So, started meeting some of the people; I met Deacon Brown, I met um, when we first started, I’m trying to remember some of the people. When, when we first started, we started out with a lot of young people coming in, a lot of children, but it seems like as the time has gone on, some of them have gone. It’s down to the few that still be there sometimes. But um, we had a lot of young children that, that were coming there. And it was a lady named Tina, she used to come with, to do some work, was a lady named Vanessa. Deacon Brown, still a member of the church, I think she and Deacon Brown were the only two that were still members of—original members—of the church when it was open before.” Morgan Cain: “Ok. Are there a few others at this point that were?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Just the Browns and I think Henry is an original member. And we have had several people that have moved away that were original church members down there.” Morgan Cain: “Ok. They’ve moved away?” Carolyn Spraggins: “They’ve moved away. But when they come in, they’ll come in and stand and talk about all their parents, grandparents, or whatever, bringing them to church there, how they would walk 86 down there together. So, just different stories that they would tell about when they were growing up, some of their older people that have died or whatever.” Morgan Cain: “How many members came the first few Sundays?” Carolyn Spraggins: “The first few Sundays, we um, I’m trying to think, original members that were there or joined after the doors opened?” Morgan Cain: “I mean, was the attendance low when you first opened up?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah, it, it was slow when we first started up. We have had several people to join the church, but for nowadays, I don’t know. The world, a lot of people seem to, to feel like the world have more to offer than serving God. If all of the people who have joined since we first opened the doors, would regularly, regularly attend, it would be full.” Morgan Cain: “I’ve been there when it’s been full before.” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah, he’s baptized several, and we’ve had people to have come back on—there’s been a lot of children to join.” Morgan Cain: “What is your title in the church, what else do you do? Carolyn Spraggins: “Well, um, First Lady of the pastor. Um, I am, do the um, youth, do the youth ministry, and President of the Choir. I love working with the choir and the youth.” Morgan Cain: “Are a lot of the members of the church community members here in Wake Forest, or are they living—.” Carolyn Spraggins: “We had quite a few here in the community. Some that were here have moved other places.” Morgan Cain: “So how much do you know about the deed that stipulated that the church apparently was only supposed to—the land was only belonging to the church as long as— Carolyn Spraggins: “Oh yeah. I didn’t know anything about it until we, we had our first meeting and people brought up different conversations concerning the deed and um the Eaves and um, Shermans, Reverend Sherman started coming down with us, and he’s been here all of his life I think and Henry and uh, well I think, no, I’m not really sure about Deacon Brown, cause I think Deacon Brown moved here from somewhere else, but um, the Eaves, Henry, and the Shermans. Benzena was trying to tell me something about it, but see, I don’t think she’s originally from here, um, Henry’s originally from here, from what I’m understanding. And Reverend Sherman, they were saying ah, that it, the land used to belong to, to um Kentland and they gave it to the slaves during that time.” Morgan Cain: “To start a church? Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah.” Morgan Cain: “I just think that’s the neatest story because it really motivated the church to keep the land.” Carolyn Spraggins: “And I think Benzena was, was able to get in touch with some owners, that used to be owners back during slavery times, or knew of some of the family from the Kents, from the ah, Kentland. 87 Um, from what I understand, what she said, that she was able to contact some of the family that were still living. Concerning some of the different situations, concerning the land.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “I attended as a boy: very young age. But uh, lets see, what I’m trying to—how I’m trying to figure the Baptist Church. The Baptist Church, well of course you know there was two churches in Wake Forest: The Baptist Church and the Holiness Church. So from what I understand and what I was told that amongst the families here in Wake Forest at the early—my early age, is that there was sort of like split. Some went to the Baptist, some went to the Holiness Church. Most time, most time my Sunday School teachers were either, they were ministers or deacons in the church. I had, my main Sunday School teachers was Frank Bannister and Hendersen Jones. Which Hendersen Jones was my uncle. Then we had people here that—a {unclear} teacher in the church was Mrs. Janie Milton and Mrs. Eliza Bannister. And then I went with the, went to church there all during my youth years, my teenage years. Then after I became 17, I left; left this area and I moved to Northern Virginia. And of course by moving up there, I left the church too, you know, here. Alright, and during that time after, after I moved to Northern Virginia, the church, to me, was up and down like an elevator. Different families, different people went to church. Different people died off that were very prominent in the church like Mr. Bannister, Frank Bannister. He died, him and his wife. And my uncle, Henderson Jones; he was, he was a big deacon in church. And some more people. And I wasn’t in to the church at all during the time after I was 17 until I guess about 6 years ago—well, about 5 years ago when I came back here. At that time, the church was closed. They had, had a minister here. Matter of fact, I didn’t know the minister, I never went to church, knew him or nothing. But anyway, he was the minister and the church closed. There was a minister when I moved back here. But I didn’t go back to that church cause it was in that state. So I went to the Holiness Church. So then, it went like that until finally this minister {at the Baptist Church} had so much, so many problems with him and his wife and different things. And so he just left. He just gave it up, and I guess just went on about his business. So then, Hiawatha came here looking for some land to build him a house. So, and in the meantime, before he come here looking for some land, my wife was going by that church everyday. And, and she was raised up in a Baptist church as well as I was. And she is more into church, more into church value—religious value than I am. But anyway, she, it was her lifelong thing after moving to Wake Forest. Because when she moved to Wake Forest, she, she started out in that church after we got married. And then the church just started going downhill and she went to the Holiness Church. And then I went to the Holiness Church. So now when we come back here, she was always talking about the church going down cause it was just sitting there. Nobody had been in the church for something like 3 or 4 years. So, one day, she had talked 88 to somebody about—she had talked to Hiawatha. She had advertised about some land. So, anyway Hiawatha came by here to talk to me about some land and I uh, I talked to him about it. I told him, when my wife come home I told her, I said, ‘Now, a guy came by here, tells me he’s a pastor. I don’t know what church, I don’t even know where he from. We didn’t talk that long and we didn’t get that personal.’ But I, I said, ‘But I think he’s a good man, a religious man, and everything.’ So then after I talked to him, sold him some land over here—well, I hadn’t sold him the land then, but I was trying to, encouraging. But anyhow, she gets to talking to him and he’s telling her that he was, he was looking for a church. So, and then this fit right into her dream of, of opening that church. She was trying to figure out a way to open up the church on her own. So anyway, he told her he was looking for a church and she said, ‘Now if you want a church, I got a perfect church for you.’ And he, she told her where it was. And he come back, and he looked at the church. Weed grass was this high all around it. And she was so just disappointed by the people not keeping the church up, just letting it go down. So anyway, she told him. So he went out and he started cutting grass around that church with a weed-eater. Everyday that you seen him; nobody knew this man. Nobody seen him. The only person that had seen him was me and I had talked to him, and we didn’t talk about the church. But anyway, everybody was seeing him. One person came by here and asked me—said they saw a strange man at the church, cutting grass. I said, ‘Well, what did he have on?’ Can’t figure out why he wears them red coveralls as hot as it was. He had red coveralls the same color as your sweater. So anyway, I’d went by there a couple of time. I seen him, I mean, he was working from nine to ten o’clock, to dusk, until it got dark. And he’d have all that grass around that church, round the bank, got it all cut. And the mother of—that used to be the mother of the Baptist church, she dead now, name was Mrs. Brown. She went out there and called him on the spot. Asked him, what was he doing cutting grass at her church. Well in the meantime, her, her pastor wasn’t, I mean her pastor—in the meantime the church was shut and she had moved her membership to Lynchburg to be down with her sister. So anyway, he told her that he didn’t think that God’s house should look that way. So then my wife, she came in. She saw him there and stopped and talked. So she told him, said, ‘I’m going to tell you something, if you want a church, I see if I can get you this church. Cause I want you to get in for my own self.’ So anyway, my wife knew Deacon Brown. So she told Deacon Brown about him. He was the only one here that was living here that was a member. So she questioned him about it. So he told her, said, “Well, I’m, I’m, I’m into this and that. So um, I’ve been paying the light bill, I’ve been doing this here whatever upkeep it was.’ I’ll uh, said, ‘But I can’t handle it.’ He said, ‘I’m a police chief and I’m a farmer.’ So anyhow, she said, ‘I got a man for you.’ So anyway, that’s—Hiawatha was living in Christiansburg. So she went out one Saturday morning. She come in, and she said, ‘Is Hiawatha out there? Is that man out there at the church?’ I said, ‘Yeah, he’s out there at the church.’ She gets on the phone, to call Deacon Brown on the phone, said, ‘That man said he’s interested in the church. He’s out there cutting grass now.’ Him and Deacon Brown got together. Deacon Brown took him all through the church, and told him, ‘If 89 you want the church it’s yours,’ and gave him the keys. He said, ‘I ain’t got time to fool with it.’ Said: ‘I got too much work on my hands being police chief and trying to keep up with my farm work.’ So Hiawatha drove from the church and come over here. And he was, walked there in the living room and he said, ‘Man,’ he had a smile on his face and I hadn’t seen Hiawatha I guess for like two months. I said, ‘What made you so happy this morning? This morning you got that smile on.’ He said, ‘Man, you just don’t believe it. A man gave me a church.’ I said, ‘What you talking about?’ He said, ‘You know Police Chief Brown?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I know him, why?’ He said, ‘Well he gave me the keys to this church and do what I want to do with it, said he didn’t have time to fool with it.’ So I said, ‘Ok.’ So anyway, he started working on the church. And I was still going to the Holiness Church…but I don’t know, something just, just kept leading me and leading me, leading me. Seeing, I was seeing him at work everyday and I got to know him and I said, ‘Well, that man needs some help.’ So I just, I went to the church. I guess it was just, I don’t know, the Lord or somebody was telling me, ‘Just go and help him.’ So I resigned the Holiness Church and I went to the Baptist Church. And they accepted me and then we started formulating a board, a working board. The church needed an awful lot of work. Then I got to where I knew Deacon Brown pretty well. I got what book work we needed off of him: how much money we had in the church, who’d been paying the light bill, and everything and all. So we started from there, and we started with eleven hundred and ten dollars. That’s what was in there when he, he gave the church to Hiawatha. Alright the first thing we had to do was it had an outdated furnace in there that I just looked at my own self and said, ‘If we keep using this thing, the church going to burn down.’ So I had a new furnace put in, a new oil furnace. This one had an old coal furnace in it, had a new oil furnace put it. And then from one thing just updated from then on. And it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And the longer it took, the more involved I got in church. And since then, I got out put a new roof on the church, new gutter, had the church repainted, and a lot of other things we done. And then some—started getting members. Some of the old members came back. And then we started taking on new members. And uh, the last thing I did was remodel the kitchen and dining room. I don’t know if you have been in there and seen it? Then, have you seen it since my wife put the, what is it? She put a showcase down there of the church?” Morgan Cain: “I’ve seen that.” Henry Eaves: “You’ve seen that. Well—” Morgan Cain: “There wasn’t anything in there though when I saw it.” Henry Eaves: “Oh, but it’s a lot of artifacts she got in there now. She put old Bibles, and stuff in it. And different parts. And I found some old, I know good and well they was communion bottles. You know, there was grape wine bottles. I found some of them, brought them home, cleaned um up. Some old things, you know. Cause actually what happened, when you come up in front of the church, when you come up in the church itself underneath the floor was a coal bin.” Morgan Cain: “Ah, I remember you telling me that. Is that where you found those hymnals?” Henry Eaves: “Yeah, that’s where all that stuff was. 90 And then since Mr. Bannister’s son, Frank Bannister’s son, donated a whole, he donated six hundred dollars worth of hymnals. Brand new hymnals, you know, cause we was reading out of two: Red Book and Green Book. So we got all new hymn books. And we do, we do a lot of updating as we can. I had to, I changed the bathroom around where it was wheelchair accessible, cause we had a pastor come here for service and she was in a wheelchair. And she couldn’t even get her wheelchair through the doors. So I enlarged the doors in the bathroom where it, that way you could go in. And now it’s, you know, cause whoever put the bathroom in there just put enough, put two foot doors in there. It takes a bigger door so a wheelchair could go in there. And different things like that. Right now I got some carpet out there in the garage I’m going to put down—just as soon as it gets warm enough—on the outside. And that’s basically for appearance. But our church, it grew quite a bit, we have prayer meeting on Wednesday night. Then we have Sunday School on Sunday and service on Sunday. And we meet for business meetings once a month: third Sunday of the month. We’ve had a few weddings in the church—hadn’t had any funerals thank the Lord. But the membership was growing. But I don’t know, all of a sudden something or another happened where the membership ain’t growing like it used to. Seems like right now it’s at a stand still. Every now and then somebody you know, come in.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Reverend Spraggins came and starting reverening?” James Sherman: “Oh yes, yes. He, he, kind of caught my eye and spirit right off cause he come here. He got to cleanin’ up the church yard. Wadn’t no membership or nothing. I, I was working at the arsenal just part time, I’d retired, but I was working part time over at the arsenal. I’d come by there a time or two and he’d be there working. He was working up near the road where you turn coming in there by Wake Forest Road. So I said, ‘I’ve got to get acquainted with this man here.’ Reverend Spraggins said: ‘Yeah I feel like I’ll be here at this church.’ I hadn’t talked to him about who he’d talked to, or Brother Brown. He said, ‘Well, Brother Sherman, you know all people need is someone to love um.’ 91 So that stuck with me right from the beginning, you know, yeah. Someone who had a caring for people. If you care for people, you have to beareth whatever they lack for until you can get with um, you know what I mean. A lot of times we don’t know what another person’s purpose is for doing what they do, that’s right, that’s true, right. He {Reverend Spraggins} convinced me that he had a purpose for coming and working, you know, concern for the welfare of the people, and I just took right on to liking him and his servantship out there.” 92 IV. The Wake Forest Churches Chapter Sixteen: The Holiness Church The Early Holiness Church Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Sonny Johnson: “See we got two churches out here—Reverend Beamer is in the Holiness, Pentecostal Holiness Church... See, they got a brand new church there. The other church was Pentecostal Holiness Church. And that’s one reason the new church is there, because uh someone back in the, way back in the {unclear} church days built that church down there {the original Holiness Church}, made it as a non-denomination church. It’s deeded as non-denomination. {See Appendix E-3} And these, these ah, Pentecostal Holiness wanted to—put up a Pentecostal sign up in it. Someone told them, ‘You can’t do that.’ They wanted to know why, so they went over and searched the records in Christiansburg and it says, ‘deal deeded as a non-denomination.’ And he was an uncle to the Shermans down there, but I can’t think of his, think of his name right off. Carter! Carter, his name was Carter. I don’t know if that was his last name. They call him Carter, C A R T E R.” He said he built the first little old church down there, which is still down there, was a Pentecostal. They used it for years as a Pentecostal Holiness Church.” Clyde Kessler: “Is it that little church next to Clarence Page?” Sonny Johnson: “Clarence, right. That’s it. And that church has been there a long time. It’s been there every since, the whole time I’ve been down there. Basically unchanged.” {The original Holiness Church} Recollections of Frank Bannister, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “Now Sonny Johnson was telling me that the Holiness Church was really designed and planned and was deeded to be non-denominational and somebody turned it into a Holiness Church. It {the original Pentecostal Church building} was supposed to have been for all denominations to get together {after the original Baptist Church split and burned}. He said he checked on that deed or something like that and they had that originally planned. Now I don't know, that's just, you know, I'm just one bit-by-bit trying to find out.” Frank Bannister: “Well my grandpa give land to build the church.” Clyde Kessler: “And it was always Holiness?” Frank Bannister: “Non-Sectarian.” Clyde Kessler: “Non-Sectarian?” 93 Frank Bannister: “And they wanted to change the name of it, and they changed it two or three times.” Clyde Kessler: “That's what he meant by non-denominational, was Non-Sectarian?” Frank Bannister: “Yeah. {See Appendix E-3} Clyde Kessler: “Well who was the first preacher, first preacher there?” Frank Bannister: “Where?” Clyde Kessler: “At the Holiness” Frank Bannister: “Oh child, they had so many you couldn't count.” Clyde Kessler: “Charlie Eaves?” Frank Bannister: “No, Wasn't no, wasn't no black minister come in there. White folks come in there and started um all.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Do you know much about the church history? Have you been told stories?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Uh, I know that the little church, it was established into the United Holiness Church body in 19—September 1937 by Reverend S.A. Mayo, came through and she establish a union in 1937. And from there the church growed and she was the pastor, and then they had several other pastors. I don’t know all of um’s name. But I know that um, William Beamer became the pastor 38 years ago. And he was the pastor for 30, 32 years, and then it was uh, Reverend {Houston} Spencer, Elder Parsons, and Elder Spencer again: myself. And ah, but I don’t think they’ve had a lot of pastors because I guess usually whoever goes there, they love it and stay. They don’t do a lot of leaving, but I don’t know whether Mother Mayo was a, I don’t know if she was ever the pastor there, she just established the church. And uh, Mother Jones—we call her Mother Jones—she could tell you more about the pastors because she knows all of the history. She was there when.” Morgan Cain: “When, you said that you had a lot of people at the little building—the original Holiness Church, when y’all were about to build, was the Baptist church down at that time?” Eyvonne Spencer: “It was, well it was not down, but they were having church like every other Sunday. The pastor there then was uh, Reverend Glenn Cobbs, at the Baptist church, I know that much. And then after he left, there was a pastor, I forget what his name was, he was a young man, and he was there every other Sunday.” Morgan Cain: “Mother Mayo, she was the one who decided to actually make Wake Forest Holiness affiliated with a larger Holiness organization?” Eyvonne Spencer: “Uh, yeah. She brought it. I don’t know what they were before that. Uh, but she brought them into the United Holy body.” Morgan Cain: “How does that happen?” 94 Eyvonne Spencer: “I don’t know. She uh, established a, what they call a union: ministers and deacons union. And the first one was there, so she established it in the West Virginia district, in the Virginia District.” Morgan Cain: “I wonder if it was a unanimous decision.” Eyvonne Spencer: “I think it was. When she did it, I think it was.” Morgan Cain: “And was she a Wake Forest Holiness member?” Eyvonne Spencer: “No, she was from, I guess when I first met her—which I wouldn’t have been, I was born in ‘37—she was from Roanoke. And she had two churches. One in Pulaski, and one in Dublin, and she was pastor of a church in Christiansburg at one time.” Morgan Cain: “Seems like there’s an awful amount of room for women in the Holiness Churches.” Eyvonne Spencer: “Yes. It is, they help they women, they push they women, cause we’ve even got women bishops, and they never had that before. We’re now getting bishops. So the women in the United Holiness Church, I think, move faster than they do in any other church. They allow them to be pastors, they allow them to be bishops, they allow them to hold offices, you know, high-up offices, you know, things in the church.” Recollections of Esther Jones at Community Day, 1982 Esther Jones: “The Lord gave her {Mother Mayo} a vision, a long time ago of the first union ever held at our church was, you know, held in Wake Forest. And so they have a celebration, Founders’ Day program for her, and it’s one day out of the year set aside. And she’s growing very feeble. Together from some of the things she said at the convocation last week—I’m not saying she’s going to pass away, but we all know that we’re all going to leave this world someday—and she didn’t ask them {the Pentecostal district committee that plans Founders’ Day}, she told them, she wanted her Founders’ Day to be this year here in Wake Forest. So it is going to be at our church next Saturday at 11:00. And she is 90 years old. I’m a tell you that much right now, and still going strong; I mean doing remarkable for that age.” Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “They {Esther’s parents} went to the Holiness Church. Started—we all started in this little church up here.” {The small, original Wake Forest Holiness church}. Morgan Cain: “And what was the name of that church?” Esther Jones: “Just the Wake Forest Holiness Church” Morgan Cain: “Was it ever any other denomination before they named it Holiness? Esther Jones: “No.” Morgan Cain: “It’s always been, even the first year they—” 95 Esther Jones: “Pent—I mean, it’s Pentecostal Holiness. It started before I was maybe born when they first started. I mean, it had to do something when they burnt the church down. So during that time I think they—the Holiness Pentecostals had church, you know, in homes and all like that. And then the Baptist, you know, built their own church and the Holiness built they own church up here.” Morgan Cain: “Do you know what year it was built?” Esther Jones: “I would say 1919, 1920, maybe 1920. I think about the year I was born, all this was going on, you know. And I only know what my parents and my grandparent, you know, tell me about that period of time.” Morgan Cain: “So your grandparents had gone to the Baptist church {before the splitting}?” Esther Jones: “They all attended that church. That was the only church here. But they came, you know, with the Pentecostals cause my grandfather built this little church up here.” {After the church split, her grandfather helped build the original Holiness Church where her family attended.} Morgan Cain: “Really. What was his name?” Esther Jones: “Robert Eves. And he built that. Of course, with the help of the men in the community I mean. He didn’t do it {alone}—I mean. But he was—his trade was carpentry. Cause he built a lot: some of the houses, I think maybe one or two are still out in McCoy that he built. But the Cowans, down here on Kentland, where we were working, you know, they gave the timber. But the men had to have it cut and took it to the sawmill to have it sawed for the lumber for the church, but they did furnish. Ah, they {Cowan} may have done it for both churches, but I’m sure they did it for this one.” {The original Holiness church.} Morgan Cain: “Did you ever ask your parents or grandparents why they decided to go to the Holiness church instead of going back to the Baptist Church?” Esther Jones: “I think the reason would be, it was more Spirit filled, the Holiness. And you know, well, have you heard, I know you’ve heard the expression—which is a good expression—is that they spoke in tongues. Well you know, at that time I don’t think the Baptist—didn’t want that in there, that church, you know. So it was just one of those things that, ‘You follow what you believe’ and ‘You follow what you believe,’ you know.” Morgan Cain: “Now you said for a few years that they worshiped—the Holiness Church—worshiped in houses before they built the Holiness Church. Do you know how long they worshipped in houses?” Esther Jones: “I really don’t, cause I don’t know the year really that the church burned and when this one was—it wouldn’t be I would say over a period, I would say, less than two years. Since I built this, since I’ve lived at this house, I’ve had what you’d call cottage meetings. Just people come; they had a church to go to—but we was going from house to house and having service. Jimmie Lee {Price} know all about that.” Morgan Cain: “So you said originally that the Holiness minister came through the Baptist church and that’s kind of where people decided they liked the idea of Holiness spirituality and being filled with the spirit. Did he stay at the church or did another minister come?” 96 Esther Jones: “No, you know, people would come through and carry on revival and they’d travel on, you know. I think, as far as I can remember, that minister was named—well then there wasn’t no ‘reverend.’ Wasn’t all of that. People just called them brother; brother this and brother that—and I think his name was Brother Wind, W-i-n-d. As far as I know. And then they would come through and carry on revival. They would take, I mean they didn’t establish, you know, to stay there any length of time. Because their business was to carry the gospel from area to area.” Morgan Cain: “Were there other missionaries or revivals that came through here?” Esther Jones: “We had a lot of preachers to come through up here at this little {original Holiness} Church before we—before they actually got a pastor, and some would come and stay maybe a week, and I remember, I can remember one minister, his name was, uh, when he died he was a bishop—Bishop McKinley. And he lived with us back up in the mountain, I mean he stayed there. That was, he considered that his home. And I guess he was here, I don’t know, but for a pretty long period. Of course he was from North Carolina I think. But he died in North Carolina, he may have been from West Virginia and come through here. But I’m pretty sure it sounds to me like it would have been North Carolina, but I don’t know.” Morgan Cain: “When you were holding services in your homes, would there be like lay ministers? Would family members lead the services or just anyone?” Esther Jones: “Anyone. When you have meeting, there wasn’t no certain person, you know, like a pastor or nothing doing it, it’s just the people was doing it. You’d just come into the home and just have a service.” Morgan Cain: “Could women hold services?” Esther Jones: “Mmhmn. Cause I, my pastor’s a women. And they were very informal.” Morgan Cain: “And even on Sundays, at the church, could anyone preach or did you have a regular minister?” Esther Jones: “Well we didn’t have a regular, well sometimes…We didn’t have a regular at all times, what’d I say as a pastor, but my grandfather, whose name I gave you, Roberts Eves, he was a deacon: very stern, very, very good. And so, he would always, I mean, he could carry out the service. Any of the deacons, and all the men, or the women, or whoever was there, you just went on and had church. It wasn’t no formalities. Was not formal.” Morgan Cain: “Did you like it that way?” Esther Jones: “Sure. I still like it that way.” Morgan Cain: “And it continues to be informal with a regular minister? Esther Jones: “Well, not as much now as it was then, informal. Course, we still have congregational singing and things like that, you know. You know, we don’t have no program, you know, to go by. Nothing, we just kind of follow through, you know.” 97 Morgan Cain: “When did the services stop being someone different each Sunday or different elders, and when did it start becoming full-time ministers?” Esther Jones: “Well for the—we’ve had full time ministers for a long time. The pastor that was here before she {Eyvonne Spencer} came, was here for 29 years. He was a pastor. He starting pasturing this little church and then we built the other one. So you know we’ve had a lot of pastors down through the years. Some of um was a long distance because the pastor that was here for 29 years lived in Mt. Airy, North Carolina. And he was here every Sunday, you know. Every Sunday, for 29 years. And so—and before he came, he had several, you know, different pastors, but they all lived a distance; maybe come down from Galax, and, but we’ve never been without a pastor once we got started. I guess what they say is your supposed to have a Sheppard, aren’t you? To feed the flock.” Recollections of Jimmie Price, 2006 Jimmie Price: “Pentecostals have lively and exuberant worship. Spiritual, we call it spiritual…. The land for this Pentecostal Black Church was given by Howard Sherman, who was a freed Kentland slave, Howard Sherman. Then in the late 1900’s, they went farther over and this Pentecostal built a new sanctuary, and this other, this original old church of 1926 is now vacant and idle.” Morgan Cain: “But it’s still standing?” Jimmie Price: “Still standing.” Morgan Cain: “Great.” Jimmie Price: “This is the old church of 1926. The old slave Uncle Howard Sherman gave land here and helped to build it.” 98 The New Holiness Church: Same Congregation in a New Structure Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Henry Eaves: “Now the Holiness church, they had a variety. They was, seems like they was going changeable. Another thing, the ones that was in the Baptist church was more long term. He stayed there, had a longer term of preaching at that particular church. Now like in the Holiness church, in that church body, in their belief is that you only have a tenure for one year. Even today, it would see to run from June first to June first: one year. And then con—June first, in the Holiness Church, they have a convocation that they have a week or two church service. And that week or two church service, you have all the business work taken care of in that district. And one thing in that district is the district elder, he will make a visit to the church. Like, we have United Pentecostal here, ok, the elder—that pastor just changed this past June. Alright, now sometime between I guess about the last two months, we’ll say April or May before June first, the district elder will come back to the church and the church has to vote to keep him {the preacher} or release him. And whatever the vote is, he has to take it back to convocations, and then the district elder will make a vote on it. And the bishop will determine whether this man holds his tenanture to be the pastor. And that is basically on one or two things: The church isn’t growing, or the membership don’t want him back.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Eyvonne Spencer: “It’s a family oriented church and when you went in, you could just feel that is was like the earth, love oozed out of the walls. But we were in the little tiny church, right down there when I first went over there {The original Holiness Church}. Finally God had given Elder Beamer the vision to build a bigger church cause we were over overflowing. We had college students at the time, coming to the church and, um, one of the members that had left town and moved to Baltimore gave him the land, practically, that we got the church on now. And the members got together, we had 13 members. We borrowed the money; some of the college students built the plans—drew the plans for the church. Um, they, ah, then college members got together; members got together and they build the foundation of the church and, uh, it was really a community thing. Everybody got together and they worked together and we built the church. And with all the money we borr—we borrowed, we pledged and paid all the money back. The church was paid for, in full, in six years. And that was working together and everything. And finally about 4 years ago—and I was a member there when I married Elder Houston Spencer. And he had a church in West Virginia, so I left there and went with him to West Virginia to church. And I liked it, but I didn’t like it as well as I did {Wake Forest}. The people, the people were good. The people 99 were beautiful, and I’m a people person so it didn’t have a hardship with me. But then in ‘90—I guess it was about ‘98, I was called to the ministry while we were still in West Virginia. And my husband, uh, gave up the church in West Virginia and we came back to Wake Forest. And when we came back to Wake Forest we worshiped with, uh, Elder Beamer. And I think by this time he was a Bishop. They had raised him to the Bishopship. And we worked there with him, and I took over the duties that I had there before, other than financial secretary. And they already had one, and I don’t like to go and take jobs. I’ll do anything I can find to do. But I became choir member and, ah, worked with the pastor’s aid and I worked with all departments in the church and worked with the pastor. And, ah, I worked with him for a while as associate minister, and then in about four years ago he decided that he was not well. So he wanted to get closer to home, so he moved back. The church in North Carolina didn’t have a minister, and they wanted him, and that’s where he was from. So he moved back to North Carolina to be the minister there and he asked me, would I take Wake Forest, and since my husband was a minister and an older minister, I said, ‘No, let my husband have it and I’d work with him.’ So my husband took over ministering there and he worked there for a year. Then they got another minister that worked for a year and ah, didn’t work out too well. And then they asked me if I’d take the church and I told them I’d only take the church if I got 100% vote, not 99, not 96, but only 100% vote. And I got 100% vote, so I took the church and I’ve been pastor now for two years. Love working with the people, make a lot of mistakes, but I got Esther Jones. And as I said, she’s the monarch. She keeps me on the right, on the straight and narrow. When I make a mistake, I tell um if I ever do something or make a mistake, don’t hesitate to correct me. You know, cause I know I don’t know it all, and I’m still learning and I—we work beautifully together. And I love the church and I love the people and it’s almost like just being a family. I mean, there’s decisions to make and, I mean, you know, if you’re the pastor you’re supposed to be the head, but I feel like, uh, working together, you’re a better head if you can work with the people than if you try to separate yourselves from the people. So I work with the people, the people work with me. We make all decisions together. I make no decisions they don’t agree with and they don’t go out and make decisions then come back and tell me about it later. But we all work together. And we’re a tithe-paying church. We’re a faith-believing church and ah, we got six members, but they’re six beautiful members and sometimes we feel like we’re getting ready to go under, but then we get another burst of energy, and we bounce back. But it’s a beautiful church, and it’s a beautiful people, and it’s a beautiful community. And then I got, as I tell um sometimes—like you was talking about Eulaila—that the pastor’s not the only one that can bring the word. And I feel like if you listen to what the people have to say, sometimes you learn. And I’m not above learning. And I’ve found that I listen to Mother Jones, I’ve listened to Darren, and I’ve listened to Eulaila, and my husband and they all, to me, are qualified. They’re not ministers, but in their own right, I think they are. We’re all ministers to a certain extent. And I, I just like it. I 100 love being pastor. I didn’t think I could make it and I, I like the role. I like the role. And I’m respected in the community I think. And I’m respected in the church. We used to have, uh, which we had more members at the time, but on Sundays, on the third Sundays, we would have what we called Potluck Day. And every member would bring a dish and we’d all go down and we’d eat, and no—nobody would know what anybody was bringing, but nobody brought the same thing. It was always, it always worked well that we had meat, we had vegetables, and we had a starch, we had bread, desserts, and it worked out beautiful. They still beautiful people. And they are grateful. Everybody in the area say they love to go to Wake Forest because you can feel the love when you go into the church. And uh, you can, you can walk in the door, and it’s—looks like it’s just love in the walls, I don’t know.” Morgan Cain: “And with some of the manner in which you carry out the service, do you try to do like what has always been done there when you arrived?” Eyvonne Spencer: “No, we ah, we just made a program out when we came, and we carry it that way. But it’s, it’s basic and not just about all of um, it’s basic songs, prayer, scripture, devotion, testimony. And some church members—a lot of churches have cut out the testimony part because a lot of people do get up and they say a lot of things that’s not pertaining to. But I feel like the people of Wake Forest have been blessed, and we’re overcome by our testimonies. And I think the testimony—to me—is the vital part of the service, and I think we need to know that somebody come in and say that the Lord has taken me through all week long. You know: ‘The Lord did this for me,’ or something. And I think that will help someone that is sitting there and they going through something and wondering, ‘Don’t know how am I going to make it?’ If somebody get up and tell, ‘Well I went through so and so and I got all the way through it,’ and they say ‘Um, I’m going through that, I can make it you know?’ So I, we have testimony. A lot of churches don’t have testimony, but we have testimony. Holiness denomination, most of them, like we have communion, you know, first Sunday. Uh, we have Bible school, then all the churches, most of the churches, have the young people or all the people that’s in class give a summary of what was learned in the classes. They do that everywhere. And then they have the, the prayer for the sick. They have, a lot of them like to have prayer for the sick at the end of the service. A lot of them like to have prayer for the sick at the middle of the service. I go by whatever the Lord say. If he say, ‘Stop what you’re doing and lets have prayer,’ that’s what I usually go by: his leading and guidance. And if somebody gets up and say, and really say, ‘I’m stressed out,’ we’ll stop and we’ll work with that individual. We just, we, we got a program that we go by, but we’re not set into the program. We can change it at anytime. It’s just, program is something written on a piece of paper and we can change it at will. Like Sunday, we just, we had quite a few young people there, we just did the service according to the thing, and that’s the way I like to lead service. I don’t like to: ‘We got to do this at this time, and this at this time, and this at this time.’ And then—I don’t think you can carry out too much of a service that way. And so we change. 101 To me, service is—you’ve got to do things at least in order, I understand that, but when the spirit of God is moving, I think the people should set back and let the spirit of God move. And then we go forward, we do our thing, but we let Him do his thing first, because it’s His church and we are visitors in His church. So I like to—whatever the Holy Ghost says, we’re going to do it this way, then that’s the way we do it. I’ve stopped service sometimes when the spirit has told me to tell um to go this way, that way, there and everybody go to a separate area and pray, and that’s what they do. And uh, the, the service, it always ends up the same way, we always end up, we dismiss at the same time just about, and get out. But I don’t think you should shortchange the Holy Ghost, when it comes to that, in and out of worship. I don’t think you should shortchange worship. Worship and praise is what we’re there for. And the message, and God always leaves room for the message, so. But I like it. I wish more of them would come.... I’ve told them that one of these Sunday mornings I’m going to go out with the microphone and I’m going to stand in the that big field right there next to the church and we’re going to have church out there. If they won’t go to church, I’m going to let church go to them.” 102 V. Looking Back & Looking Ahead Chapter Seventy: Church, Glue That Holds the Community In Place Chapter Eighteen: The Value of Wake Forest’s History Chapter Nineteen: The Future of Wake Forest 103 V. Looking Back & Looking Ahead Chapter Seventeen: Church, Glue That Holds the Community In Place Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “The heart and soul of what we believe is God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Ghost. And we believe in being baptized, emerged. And we believe in the—being spirit led, which means, you know, some has the gift of healing and the gift of tongues. And well, the main thing is we go by the Fruits of the Spirit. The Fruits of the Spirit which is forgiveness, trust, and all those—love, all of that goes in to make up—and that’s the way I would summarize. It is we just believe in—believe in the word, as it is written word. We just believe that.” Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 William Brown: “The church held together, and it was the sense of community.” Recollections of Jean & Howard Eaves, 2006 Morgan Cain: “Do you think that the churches are still what make Wake Forest such a strong, united community? Do you think that religion had a lot to do with it?” Jean Eaves: “I think so.” Howard Eaves: “I think so. I think you can honestly say that the religion had something that unified, you know, keeping a lot of the community things going. You know, it wasn’t about the religion a lot of times, just everybody coming together, you know. If anything happened, especially of a tragedy nature, you know, they can all pitch-in and do what they had to do, you know.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Morgan Cain: “Well of the original families, like when you were growing up, was church and religion really important in this area?” Henry Eaves: “Very important. The loving and the care-giving that these people here is very, very—how would I put it?—very, very rare. We’ve had people that come through this area that spend the night with families they never seen, just because they was in need. Whether the person that’s providing the need for these people—even if they had a full family—there was always room for a few more. And that was the type of camaraderie we had here. And we still have it. We don’t have it as much as we used to, but it ain’t that much of a gap between now and when I was a kid. 104 But church in this community, everybody was in church on Sunday. I’m talking about the church was all—this was all the families. But I guess, to tell you the truth, the church was all the older generation of Blacks had to hold on to.” Morgan Cain: “What do you mean by that?” Henry Eaves: “Well, that, feel like this way: being black I can explain to you—tell you in a way. If you look back through slavery times and you knew the history of slavery, the church was always the meeting place. The pastor of that church, for the slaves, was always the community leader, even back during the days when—And then the blacks didn’t have freedom of speech and they didn’t have freedom to vote. Their rights were violated. And they used to have—I heard a saying later on in life one time that when things were going tough, the difference between a white man and a black man is a black man would always run to the church. And the white man was always running to the mental institutions, play crazy. And then too, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve seen it happen. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve really seen it happen. You take when things go to getting bad, they’ll tell you, say, ‘Go pray for it.’ Or the pastor come by the house, want to pray with you and things like this here. White man get sick or something, first thing he want to do is go to the doctor or mental institutions. If it, if the doctor can’t find nothing physically wrong with him, it’s got to be in his mind. So now he goes to the mental institution and he might need prayer as well as he do that. But then another thing too, the blacks didn’t have the money, the funds to go to the expensive doctor. But church to the blacks has always been outstanding point. Now when you get to dividing the black race, I’d say: One, Two, Three: rich being One, Three being poor, and Two is getting by, just being ok. Alright, most likely the preacher will probably be the richest man in the community, he’s the preacher.” Recollections of Carolyn Spraggins, 2007 Morgan Cain: “I just have thought to myself and from talking to other people that it seems like the church and the faith in the community really holds it together, holds the people and their traditions together, but do you think there’s other things that do that, or would you agree?” Carolyn Spraggins: “I think the church is probably what you would somewhat say is the mainframe.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Is church is the center of community and family in Wake Forest.” Eyvonne Spencer: “Uh. To me, church is important to a lot of them, so I guess it is. They might not come like I think they should, but I think if I go to any of the homes in Wake Forest and tell them that we’re doing something, they will be willing to help. So I guess church is the center of community in Wake Forest. Both churches.” Morgan Cain: “Do you think it’s what holds them together?” 105 Eyvonne Spencer: “Yes. It is definitely the glue. You know like I said, they don’t attend like they should, but they know it’s there. And I’ve got some that come to church if they have a problem. They’ll come sometimes and stand in the door, you know. And I’ll see them, and I’ll go and we can talk. So church is important to them. And I think it’s the glue that holds them together. But they’re a close knit community. It’s the kind of community you’d like to be born into.” Recollections of Sonny Johnson, 1982 Clyde Kessler: “But were most of the people in the community fairly religious?” Sonny Johnson: “Yeah. Basically yeah. You’ll find in all kind of communities, any small communities that are predominately Black, that most of them are, are religious…. What I’m saying is you won’t find no atheism. Everyone believes in God in the average black community, and more so back in those days than now. Ah, simply because they put a great dependency on God because their hope for the future, regardless of viewpoint. And they did. They went to church a lot more. I would say that those churches {early black churches} were down on their knees a lot more. They had prayer meeting and so forth—I think I mentioned there was prayer meetings—and a night for choir meeting. It was a lot of more closeness in the community. A lot of unity. And a lot of dependence on each other, you know. And that’s really—there was more open community. You depended on your neighbor for one thing or the other. And even a lot of fruits and a lot of berries that grew up in the neighborhood. Everybody had fruit trees. Everybody knew where the strawberries, and blackberries and raspberries growing; huckleberries, they went to the mountain and picked huckleberries. That’s something I never did; I was always afraid, afraid of snakes.” V. Looking Back & Looking Ahead Chapter Eighteen: The Value of Wake Forest’s History Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: {Back then} “It wasn’t no formality; everything was just real, real plain. I never was that much into it {the history}. And by the time people got interested in it, I had already lost out on a lot. See this is a small community, and this community you know, all the older people have gone. Seems like things change with time, and it really does you know. Other generations come along and they don’t do things exactly like you do, but I like to stick to the tradition as much as I can.” Morgan Cain: “What is the biggest change you’ve seen?” Esther Jones: “Well, one thing, as I say, we don’t have those many people now. People didn’t mind getting out and walking, and going places, and doing things, but now look like people don’t want to do nothing unless they can ride, you know, or somebody pick you up and all.” 106 Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Morgan Cain: “How did you come to know the information that you do now?” Henry Eaves: “Well basically through living experience here.” Recollections of James Sherman, 2007 James Sherman: You know, I’ze just thinking, I don’t have a lot of information on the churches, only where I began, yeah. And the community, I should of had a lot more information, but unfortunately my mother in law, not my mother, stepmother—my dad married twice and uh, his uh, his wife, his last wife was Ester’s mother. Anyhow, he, they had a lot of information. Esther’s probably still got it cause her mother was one of the oldest citizens of this community, you know. I never did get any information like that. Now I had a brother lived up here, Oscar, you might of heard of him.” Morgan Cain: “I’ve heard people talk highly of him.” James Sherman: “Mmhumn. He died not about, little over a year ago; here ago this past Thanksgiving. And he collected a lot of information because he was just that type of a fellow, you know. He would get information, record it. He had several things written about the knowledge of the community, yeah. But I never did seek that, uh. I don’t have, just like I told you over the telephone, I don’t have a lot of things down on record or anything, nothing like that, you know. I’d like to have” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Morgan Cain: “See, I know that the history of Wake Forest is really important to you and your wife. Are you worried that once your generation leaves, that no one will know the Wake Forest history?” Henry Eaves: “No, I’m not worried about it, and you know why I’m not worried about it? People like you, that take an interest in it and documents it.” Recollections of Benzena Eaves, 2007 Benzena Eaves: “As you see, I keep a lot of information because one day, I wanted to start, I wanted to write, and so I keep it.” Morgan Cain: “Does the rest of the church share in your excitement about the church doing a project?” Benzena Eaves: “No. It’s like they don’t share in my enthusiasm. I don’t know whether it’s because they don’t see the importance of it, or some people don’t want to dwell on the past. They just look at today. I’m really into history. I’m really into this—that’s why I decided to lay the museum….” Morgan Cain: “Do they still enjoy telling their stories even if they don’t care as much about the history?” 107 Benzena Eaves: “I would say yes. All the older members have died out. And see Reverend Spraggins, he and his wife, they’re from West Virginia, they know nothing {about the heritage}. Revered Sherman, he’s a member. It’s like, he like to tell the stories and he was born and raised here and he’s in his 80’s, and he knows a lot. And I would say that he gets excited about it.” Morgan Cain: “He probably enjoys telling the stories?” Benzena Eaves: “Oh yes. He enjoys telling the stories because he was born and raised here.” Morgan Cain: “I’m just curious if some people wonder, well you understand because you love history.” Benzena Eaves: “Yeah.” Morgan Cain: “Probably just like I do. But I wonder if others wonder, you know, why, why does anyone care, you know, what’s the point in all that trouble?” Benzena Eaves: “You know actually, no. It’s like, that question hasn’t come up. But in observing what people want to get involved in or the questions that they’re asking. It’ like, even when they had the dedication of the slave monument, Henry was very upset because just very few came to that from Wake Forest. And so it’s like, ‘We not interested in the past.’ But then there’s the old like me, and Henry, and Reverend Sherman, we all are because I just feel like we need to know. And Henry just expresses, like when we had the Black History Event—” Morgan Cain: “To the young kids?” Benzena Eaves: “To the young kids, he said, ‘You need to know from what you came, what happened in your community. And so, we want to leave the history of what happened in the church and all three of the churches. And I have been in all three and that’s what I was basing my writing on, cause I have a lot of information that I have gathered. Because when I moved here in ‘66, like I said, for two years I went to the Baptist. And then I left and I went to the little Holiness and stayed there until we built the New Holiness Church. And so I have collected a lot and also seen a lot, heard a lot, and my interest is in all three churches. {Benzena finds and begins showing the interviewer an old Bible that has been in Wake Forest for generations} And like I said, this is one of the Bibles and this is when, going through, when the church reopened, they had a chest in the church. And I was looking through there for what could be—cause I always had a vision in my mind that I was going to build a museum to hold all the artifacts that came from the slaves and the early church. Because I didn’t know what I’d find from the slaves, but I want something from them as well as the early church. And I found these Bibles, and I feel like they came from the early church. Cause they are old and fragile.” {These artifacts are currently in the showcase in the basement at the Baptist Church in Wake 108 Forest.} Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Morgan Cain: “And this is your opinion only, but do you think because of the way people are moving away and they might eventually want to move back, but a lot of the elders are dieing, that stories are important to get right now?” Eyvonne Spencer: “I think so. History—to me—we let history die, especially in the black communities. We don’t, we don’t involve ourselves in it. I don’t even know my family history, you know. And I think it’s something you should know and carry because the young people that’s coming need to know what Wake Forest gave to a lot of people. We’ve got college kids who are where they are now, because—to me—what New Pentecostal gave them to go off, you know. And if you can give somebody something that they can go off and you see um succeed in what they doing, and even if they don’t succeed in what they doing, they go off and if they come back, they say, ‘I got my start here in Wake Forest, and I did this and I did that, or I didn’t go far, but I tried.’ You know, and it gives them something to look back on. And without history, you definitely die, but history keeps us living, so I think history is important.” 109 V. Looking Back & Looking Ahead Chapter Nineteen: The Future of Wake Forest Recollections of Esther Jones, 2006 Esther Jones: “We live one day at a time because tomorrow may never be here. Live everyday, live out everyday, like it’s the last day we’re going to live on earth. We don’t know. We don’t know about tomorrow.” Recollections of Henry Eaves, 2008 Morgan Cain: “But you’re not worried about Wake Forest ever not being any more of the locals and the same families that have lived here for generations?” Henry Eaves: “No, no, that’s leaving. That is actually gone. I can’t think, matter of fact it ain’t one kid that was out of the generation I was, that’s living here. Not one.” Morgan Cain: “So you think that eventually—you know, even though there’s a community here—It won’t be any of the same people that founded it {original descendants}. Henry Eaves: “No, no, no, it’s very—well you take right now, I’m 68 years old and I ain’t no spring chicken and I’m not the oldest one. But there is—I would say, I would probably say there’s less than 20 people living here now that’s younger than me. And all of their kids are gone, and I’m trying to think—I don’t think there’s one kid here that’s out of that generation out of the 20 that’s left that I know of.” Recollections of Deacon William Brown, 2007 William Brown: “And uh, and I wouldn’t go to church a whole lot, but I went to church some {as a teenager}. And that {Baptist} church was like full of people, you know, and with those people. I can go out to the cemetery and show you, say: ‘Hey, this person would go, this person would go.’ And it seems that the older people died out, but there’s some younger people coming along too, to take the places. And a lot of churches you go to, you’ll look and you’ll see middle-aged people and old people. But you don’t see people like yourself there {Referencing 19-year-old interviewer}, ones that going to step in when others are gone on, you know. Now I did see at the Community Church up in McCoy, uh, Jim Flaugher’s church, there were quite a few. There’s people to carry on the duties and things and so forth. But uh, but you look at uh, the church there, even, you know, seems like with the Holiness Church being the New Pentecostal, in that church, seem like the New Pentecostal Church really thrived and then it was like this, but it’s fallen off. And I don’t know why it fell off. Some of the, the members that went to that church and things, whether it was a split some way with the business of it and so forth, you know. 110 And people don’t really understand when you have a covenant of the church, the majority rules, and if you—you should go on with the program, but if the majority vote for this, and it’s against your opinion or whatever, you don’t get up and leave, you stay and make it work. But uh, that church {New Pentecostal of Wake Forest} is just striving to survive, like the Baptist church that we have is striving. The gap is that, when the older people leave or die off, there’s going to be very, very few. Young people that we had coming to the church at one time—sometimes we’d have 11, 12 kids there. And kids become teenagers, you know, 15, 16. Just like uh, when I was 15, I thought I knew it all, and thought my parents didn’t know anything...but that’s going to be a gap there.” Morgan Cain: “Do you think they’ll step up?” William Brown: “Probably will for the simple reason cause the—each group in there now is stepping up. But it will disjointed; not like it carried on through. It’s like, it’s when the young kids over there probably in their 30’s, they’ll say, ‘Duh. Look what I’ve missed. I’m going to go in and I’m going to do this or that.’ But they carry on from 15, 16, 18, 19 on in, there’s that gap, you know. And I don’t know whether it’s so many things going on in our lives and society and things like this that they don’t have time for church, or don’t take time for church.” Recollections of Carolyn Spraggins, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Do you ever think about what the future is for the church?” Carolyn Spencer: “I have had visions of the church really growing. Ah, my vision at one time was that the, the people would actually start coming and supporting the church and serving God to the point where that church would be too small that they would have to grow. We’ve done some, like I said, we’ve done some, oh have, you haven’t been down there recently. Um, they’ve done some, they’ve done some work in the basement to remodel, and it really looks nice. Last time I looked they hadn’t finished, but it really looks nice down there.” Morgan Cain: “Will you stay as long as you’re called to help the church grow?” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah, I, you know how you can get, you can really get discouraged sometimes because um, the word of the Lord is the, of the fallen off of the church that there, sometime the membership is good and then there’s times you go down there and maybe just a few people. And sometimes that’s discouraging, not only so much as just the church itself, but people need the understanding that they need, you know, the Lord in their life. And it’s kind of sad when you, when you see how good God is to people, so many different things come about, like um, the tragedy at ah—well just everyday life, and people just don’t realize, it’s kind of sad. And I look at the children and it’s, people just don’t realize their responsibility of trying to help their children to make a better world. And in order to do that, first you gotta know God, to do that. If you don’t know God, you can’t do it on your own. Too much cruelty in the world for that.” 111 Morgan Cain: “A lot of the elders you know are getting on up in their age, and a lot of their children have moved away out of the community.” Carolyn Spraggins: “Yeah!” Morgan Cain: “But do you feel like ah without the churches or without the faith in the community, that there would cease to be a Wake Forest Community?” Carolyn Spraggins: “I don’t think so. Cause in my experience, like even in West—like I lived in West Virginia, you could, a lot of people get older, the elderly people that are dying out, but the generations that come up, come up, you know. Most of the time when you leave home, like even at a retirement age or whatever, a lot of people always come back home. And I think as long as there’s generations of children of a family, that community—there’s always going to be someone to keep it going.” Recollections of Reverend Eyvonne Spencer, 2007 Morgan Cain: “Well I just wanted to ask you what your opinion was about the future of Wake Forest and your church. Not necessarily on attendance going down, but it seems like more and more of the locals’ children are moving away.” Eyvonne Spencer: “That’s with anything. Even in Pulaski, I’ve got girls that graduated high school in Pulaski and went to Richmond, went to Boston, and they came back to Richmond. But uh, Wake Forest really has nothing to offer young people, I mean they don’t have any stores, they don’t have anything right there in the community. And I guess all the children, when they do get grown, they do leave. And it’s catered, it’s going to the, it’s only older people there really. The young, as they graduate high school, they gone. So one or two might move back, uh, but uh, I don’t know anybody’s moved back. I can’t say I don’t see a future, because if you can’t see a future, that means you’re going to give up on everything, so I feel like there’s, there’s a future for Wake Forest, but they’re going to have a new growth of people. Wake Forest is the kind of community that when you get to a certain age, you want to come home. And I think if you’ve ever lived in Wake Forest—the young people might move away, but I think when other people get a certain age, they want to come home. And I think they’ll come back to Wake Forest.” 112 Work Cited Bannister, Frank. Interview. Clyde Kessler. 1982. Bolland, Ophelia. Interview. Clyde Kessler. 1982. Brown, William. Personal interview. 2 July 2007. Bruchac, Joseph. Our Stories Remember: American Indian History, Culture, and Values Through Storytelling. Golden: Fulcrum, 2003. Charles S. Schaeffer. Christiansburg Institute, Christiansburg. Christiansburg Institute, Incorporated. 29 Apr. 2008 . Choate, Hazel. Personal interview. 14 October 2006. Eaves, Benzena. Letter to Wake Forest Community. 2004. Founders' Day: Wake Forest Baptist Church October 24, 2004. Wake Forest Baptist Church, Blacksburg, Va. Eaves, Benzena. Personal interview. March 2007. Eaves, Henry. Personal interview. 24 January 2008. Eaves, Howard & Jean. Personal interview. 14 October 2006. Inscoe, John C. "Slavery and African Americans in the Nineteenth Century." High Mountain Rising: Appalachia in Time and Place. Ed. Richard A. Straw and H. T. Blethen. Urbana: University of Illinois P, 2004. Johnson, Patricia G. Kentland At Whitethorne. Blacksburg: Walpa, 1995. Johnson, Sonny. Interview. Clyde Kessler. 1982. Jones, Arnold. Offering Address. Wake Forest Community Day. Wake Forest Baptist Church, Blacksburg, Va. May 1982. Jones, Esther. Church Address. Wake Forest Community Day. Wake Forest Baptist Church, Blacksburg, Va. May 1982. Jones, Esther. Personal interview. 5 October 2006. Nicolay, John. Wake Forest. The Richard Montgomery Foundation. Charlottesville: Virginia Foundation for the Humanities and Public Policy, University of Virginia, 1983. Page, Clarence. Interview. 7 July 1982. Price, Jimmie & Betty. Personal interview. 13 September 2006. Sherman, James. Personal interview. March 2007. Sherman, Oscar. Interview. Clyde Kessler. 8 July 1982. 113 Spencer, Eyvonne. Personal interview. 2 July 2007. Spraggins, Carolyn. Personal interview. 2 July 2007. Surface, Catherine. Personal interview. 14 October 2006. 114 Appendix A: Transcriptions: Cl ar e nc e Page —7/ 7/ 1982 I nt e r vi e we r : John Ni c ol ay & Cl yde Ke s s l e r Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: Undes i gnat ed l ocat i on. I t ’ s pr obabl e t hat Mr . Cl ar ence Page’ s home i s t he l ocat i on wher e John Ni col ay and Cl yde Kess l er ar e i nt er vi ewi ng hi m. Not e s : The i nt er vi ew t akes pl ace i n a qui et ar ea; however , mi dway t hr ough t he t ape, t he sound qual i t y i s compr omi sed. Many of t he s t or i es and names ar e undeci pher abl e. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. {The speaker t el l s var i ous s t or i es t o hi s i nt ervi ewers at t he begi nni ng i ncl udi ng: bei ng one of t he f i r s t Wake Fores t f ami l i es t o have el ect r i ci t y, l eavi ng Wake Fores t when he was 9 ( i n 1912) and ret urni ng when he was 13; t hese moves were rel at ed t o hi s f at her f ol l owi ng work}. [ 10: 00] {1920: Openi ng of Bi g Vai n Mi ne. Cl yde Smi t h, a whi t e man f rom Pul aski , l eased l ands i n McCoy t o run t he mi ne}. [ 11: 00] {Connect i on t o Bl acks f rom out s i de Wake Fores t was mai nl y wi t h workers and mi ners f rom nei ghbor i ng areas l i ke Fl oyd and Pul aski }. [ 11: 40] {Wi l l i am Eaves ( speaker ’ s cous i n) woul d board some of t he mi ners f rom Fl oyd Count y who worked i n Bi g Vei n Mi ne}. [ 12: 15] {Never over 110 mi ners at one t i me at Bi g Vei n. Mi ne changed names and hands many t i mes}. [ 13: 10] {I dus Eaves : onl y man every ki l l ed “ up i n t hese mi nes” at t he t i me of t he i nt ervi ew. Ki l l ed i n t he ol des t s ect i on of t he mi ne}. [ 15: 50] {More about men boardi ng wi t h Wi l l i am Eaves} [ 16: 00] 115 {Peopl e l eavi ng Wake Fores t when t he mi ne cl osed i n 1954. Goi ng t o Nor t hern Vi rgi ni a f or work}. [ 17: 00] {Maki ng a l i vi ng by craf t s i n t he area}. [ 19: 40] {Moonshi ni ng}. [ 21: 15] {Mi dwi ves : Aunt Amos , Aunt Al i ce, t he speaker ’ s mot her , speaker ’ s Aunt Loui se Sherman ( She was an Eaves or i gi nal l y) , Aunt Sherman ( speaker ’ s nat ural aunt ) . Some women hel ped bi r t hi ng Whi t e and Bl ack babi es}. [ 22: 50] {Local s grew t hei r own herbs . Speaker ’ s f at her t aught hi m how t o grow gi nseng, Sweet Genel l e ( I ndi an Turni p or Jack- I n- The- Pul pi t ) , and Tanz i e. He descr i bes how women worked t he gardens wi t h t hese herbs and men worked i n t own or i n t he mi nes}. [ 26: 50] {Medi ci nal s : Bone- set t ea, Spi cewood t ea, St ar Root }. [ 32: 50] {Speaker t el l s of hi s s t ep- grandpa and nat ural grandmot her . They made t hei r l i vi ng rai s i ng ani mal s , but cher i ng, and worki ng f or ot her f armers . Hi s s t ep- grandf at her was a f r eeman who l i ved wi t h speaker ’ s f ami l y}. [ 37: 15] {Treat ment of s l aves at Kent l and}. [ 38: 00] {Speaker ’ s nat ural grandpa l i ved i n Bl acksburg and worked as a bl acksmi t h. He di ed ear l y and hi s grandma remarr i ed t he s t ep- grandf at her}. [ 41: 00] {Kent l and dur i ng s l ave days , Ci vi l War , and recons t ruct i on. Di al ogue i s uncl ear and undet ai l ed}. [ 43: 38] {Yankee’ s rai di ng Kent l and Farm}. [ 44: 55] John Ni c ol ay: “ Why was i t t hat t he peopl e t hat l ef t t her e, came down her e? Do you know, do you know how t hi s t own got s t ar t ed, Wake For es t ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ They, t hey came f r om back up Nor t h. Up t her e, cause t hat wher e you cal l um ‘ Yankees , ’ you know. ” {Speaker as sumes t hat Ni col ay i s aski ng where Yankees came f rom}. John Ni c ol ay: “ But t he t own of Wake For es t , why was i t t hat t he Bl acks l ef t ? I mean, I know why t hey l ef t t he pl ant at i on, but why di d t hey set t l e her e?” 116 Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Wel l we j us t had t hem ol d houses t hr ough her e of f t he t r acks {uncl ear} J i m Kent down her e, pr et t y much al l t hem ol d s l aves came t o wor k—” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Al r eady had cabi ns her e? Ther e wer e al r eady cabi ns her e?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ No, t hey bui l t um, cut t hei r own l ogs and bui l t um. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ About when was t hi s?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Oh, bef or e my t i me when t hey was bui l di ng al l t hose l og houses , but I s een t hem i n one of t hem t hey bui l t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Was i t r i ght af t er t he Ci vi l War ? Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Yeah, I i magi ne. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d t he t own, how di d Wake For es t come t o get i t s name? Do you know?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ I don’ t know who named Wake For es t . ” John Ni c ol ay: “ I t ’ s ki nd of a f unny name. ” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Yes i t i s . Fi r s t one I ever known t o cal l i t Wake For es t —had an ol d pr eacher ar ound her e, B. J . Shadd. And he’ s t he f i r s t one I know t o cal l —” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Bapt i s t ?” Cl ar e nc e Page “ Cal l i t Wake For es t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Bapt i s t pr eacher ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Whi ch chur ch, ar ound her e?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ The mai n Bapt i s t chur ch r i ght up t he r oad, you see t he one {uncl ear} i t bur nt , i t bur nt down af t er i t got named. Chur ch, i t got bur nt down. Way down t her e wher e t he s l aves f r om t hat chur ch—” [ 46: 38] 117 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wher e was he f r om?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Ol d Man Shadd, oh, I bel i eve hi s home was i n Kent ucky. ” John Ni c ol ay: “ He, he, was he a t r avel i ng pr eacher ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ No, j us t come and set t l ed, mar r i ed and set t l ed down. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he mar r y somebody f r om r i ght i n her e? Cl ar e nc e Page : “ I don’ t know t hat . {uncl ear} He cal l ed hi msel f mean, ever yone t hr ough her e back t hen was scar ed of hi m. He cal l ed hi msel f mean. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Why?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ I don’ t know, j us t a devi l i s al l I can say. ” John Ni c ol ay: “ The pr eacher ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Yeah! ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he pr each f i r e and br i ms t one wi t h i t ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Al ways i t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l , di d he do anyt hi ng el se f or a l i vi ng?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Ol d Man Shadd? Not t hat I know of . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he di e ar ound her e or di d he move away?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ He moved away, Ol d Man Shadd di d. {Uncl ear} back t o Kent ucky and di ed down t her e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ About how many year s was he her e?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Oh, when I was a l i t t l e chap goi ng t o s chool . {Uncl ear} I wasn’ t ol d enough t o go t o s chool , but I went on—ki nd of wi t h a f ew s i s t er s ol der t han me. They was school age, you know. Back t hen t hey di dn’ t have but f our mont hs of s chool . Oct ober , s chool woul d s t ar t maybe l at e i n Oct ober . ” 118 [ 48: 24] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What was your s chool t eacher s ’ names?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ I r emember one, Ms . {uncl ear}. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Was she f r om ar ound her ?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ She f r om, comes f r om over ar ound Chr i s t i ansbur g, somewher e over t her e I t hi nk” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Yeah?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Then we had anot her , her name, don’ t know whet her i t was supposed t o be cal l ed t hi s {uncl ear} af t er BJ Shadd l ef t and he cal l ed hi msel f pr eacher , Ol d Man Fr azi er . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What was hi s f i r s t name?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ I don’ t know what hi s name was . I know {uncl ear}. ” {Speaker cont i nues t al ki ng about s chool i n Wake Fores t i n one bi g room}. [ 49: 50] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How many peopl e, how many s t udent s was i n t he cl as s?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ We got t wo, pr et t y hi gh number {uncl ear}. {Addi e Sherman and Gl ena Sherman are named as t eachers}. [ 51: 29] John Ni c ol ay: “ What ki nd of r el at i onshi p di d t he peopl e, di d t he, t he, t hi s communi t y l i ke Wake For es t have wi t h t he communi t y over at Chr i s t i ansbur g? Was t her e a l ot of back and f or t h, l i ke di d y’ al l go t o chur ch ah, woul d t her e be days t he peopl e her e woul d go down t o Schaef f er Memor i al or somewher e—” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ No. I t was ver y sel dom. {Uncl ear} t hat was about t he onl y t i me we’ d have chur ch ar ound her e was on Sunday. Then t her e was Schaef f er Memor i al , you know t hat ’ s over t her e, pr obabl y over t her e at C. I . I , what ever t hey cal l over t her e. ” John Ni c ol ay: “ Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e. ” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ Yeah, Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e. ” [ 52: 19] John Ni c ol ay: “ I ’ ve hear d a l ot of s t or i es about hi m {“ hi m” ref er s t o Char l es S. Schaef f er}, he used t o go ar ound, of cour se he wor ked f or ah, 119 I guess he wor ked f or t he gover nment , but t hen, i n t he Fr eedman’ s Bur eau, and t hen ah, he got t o wor ki ng f or t he Quaker s and ah, di d a l ot of pr eachi ng down—I don’ t know i f he ever pr eached down her e, but I know we pr eached over i n Chr i s t i ansbur g a l ot . ” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ He never di d pr each over her e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he ever s end anybody down f r om Schaef f er Memor i al way? Di d he ever s end anybody down her e?” Cl ar e nc e Page : “ No, not t hat I know of . ” [ 54: 00] {Wal k Fores t Cemet ery l ocat i on}. [ 54: 30] {How mai l used t o be recei ved i n Wake Fores t f rom Longshop}. [ 55: 10] {How Wake Fores t got t hei r goods . St ores i n t he area f or shoppi ng and commodi t i es l i ke sugar . Speaker was sent as a boy t o get goods ; “ Had t o buy, di dn’ t have not hi ng t o t rade. ” St ore at Long Shop: Bi l l , Ji m McCoy. Horse and wagon t aken t o Bl acksburg t o get needed i t ems . Anot her ol d s t ore cal l ed Har l es s St ore i n Long Shop ( l i kel y r el at ed t o Phi l l i p Har l es s who or i gi nal l y owned l and i n t he Wake Fores t area) }. [ 57: 00] {How ches t nut s “ used t o be t hi ck” and t he ef f ect of t he bl i ght }. [ 59: 18] {St ore i n Wake Fores t run by Earnes t McCoy f or 3- 4 years . Locat ed on Cl arence’ s l and}. 120 Sonny Johns on—1982 I nt e r vi e we r : Cl yde Ke s s l e r Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: Undes i gnat ed Locat i on. I t i s mos t l i kel y t hat t he i nt er vi ew t akes pl ace at Sonny Johnson’ s home i n Bl acksbur g. Not e s : Sonny Johnson gr ew up i n Wake For es t , r ai s ed by hi s gr andmot her . He l ef t af t er gr aduat i ng f r om Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e t o j oi n t he ar med f or ces . When he r et ur ned, he wor ked at a bar ber shop on t he campus of Vi r gi ni a Tech bef or e openi ng up hi s own bar ber shop i n Bl acksbur g. He s t i l l r emai ned connect ed t o t he Wake For es t Communi t y and at t ended t he Bapt i s t Chur ch dur i ng t he t i me of hi s i nt er vi ew i n 1982 al t hough he l i ved out s i de t he communi t y. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses} Sonny Johns on: “ The cemet er y wi l l pr obabl y t el l you a bet t er s t or y about who was t her e i n t he ear l y days . Wel l , My ver s i on of how Wake For es t become i n deed, what I ’ ve hear d, and I ’ ve done a l i t t l e r esear ch on i t : Af t er —dur i ng t he r econs t r uct i on days , af t er s l aver y, um, t hey um, t hi s f el l ow Kent or Cowans—I guess maybe Kent —he r el eased, he r el eased hi s s l aves , you know. He owned al l t hat pr oper t y back i n t hat Wake For es t , t he whol e mount ai n and ever yt hi ng. And he j us t t ol d t hem t o go i nt o t hat wooded ar ea and t o pl ot of f a pi ece of l and, cl ai m i t t hei r own, and he woul d gi ve um deed t o i t . And t hey di d. And t hey went i nt o t he wooded ar ea, you know, seemi ngl y al l wood, whi ch was a f or es t . And over ni ght , t hey had bui l t a communi t y out of t he f or es t and l ogs and what have you. And t hat ’ s how t he Wake par t of i t come, l i ke, l i ke, you, you go over ni ght , you wake up t he next mor ni ng and t he communi t y i s t her e. And t he Wake For es t , t hat ’ s how i t came i nt o bei ng. You know, f r om t he communi t y—t he f or es t became a communi t y over ni ght . And t hat ’ s , t hat ’ s my ver s i on of i t . Thi s i s what I ’ ve hear d of how i t become a communi t y. The peopl e l at er bui l t chur ch and school s . And a f el l ow named Shadd, he was i ns t r ument al i n t he ear l y days . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Shedd or Shadd?” 121 Sonny Johns on: “ Shadd, I t hi nk t hey cal l hi m Shadd. I can’ t even spel l i t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Rever end Shadd?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Mr s . Bol l and t al ked about hi m and how he was—t hought he was a ni ce mi ni s t er , but he was a r at her s t r i ct di sci pl i nar i an wi t h hi s t eachi ng car ds . ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah. That ’ s r i ght . That ’ s t r ue. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ To say i t i n a pos i t i ve way. ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, he was—I don’ t know how he came t o be i nt o t he communi t y, but he was pr obabl y a sor t of a counsel or , mi ni s t er , and t eacher , and a per son—seemi ngl y, he was educat ed; one of t he f ew her e per sons who was educat ed at t he t i me. And t he ot her Bl acks i n t hat communi t y wer en’ t educat ed. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So he was i ns t r ument al i n get t i ng t he communi t y goi ng?” Sonny Johns on: “ Ri ght , yeah. But i t mi ght have been some per son bef or e hi m. Now t hat Bapt i s t Chur ch on t he hi l l as you t ur n i nt o Wake For es t , I mean i t ’ s got a t ombs t one—not a t ombs t one, cor ner s t one. I t has hi s name on i t , you know, when he set up t he chur ch and so f or t h. ” [ 2: 39] Sonny Johns on: “ That cor ner s t one, t hat chur ch t her e, {Wake Fores t Bapt i s t Church} t hat ’ s not t he or i gi nal chur ch, t hat ’ s t he second chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Yeah, t hey ment i oned i t bur ned down. Do you know when i t bur ned down?” Sonny Johns on: “ No I don’ t . . . They t hi nk i t was pur posef ul l y bur n down, i t di dn’ t , i t di dn’ t acci dent al l y bur n down. Due t o some f euds or somet hi ng among t he member s and so f or t h. I don’ t know what i t was . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So t her e was a ki nd of s t r i f e?” 122 Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah t her e’ s some suspi ci on t hat t he chur ch di dn’ t bur n down on acci dent and so f or t h because i t was some di vi s i on among t he member s . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Do you t hi nk anybody woul d have anyt hi ng—do you t hi nk t hey woul d have ever made i t i n t he l ocal paper or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat about t hat happeni ng?” Sonny Johns on: “ No I doubt i t , doubt i t . But I t el l you, you can t al k t o Mr . Fr ank Banni s t er , he’ s a per son—he or Ms . Banni s t er , uh, t hey l i ved her e i n Bl acksbur g, r eal l y i n wal ki ng di s t ance f r om her e {Perhaps t he downt own Barber Shop i n New Town}. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Fr ank Banni s t er ?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, Fr ank Banni s t er ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Ar e t hey ki n t o Mr s . Cl ar ence Page?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, yeah t hey some, some r el at i on t o—yeah t hey ar e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Cause she ment i oned some Banni s t er s , her ki n peopl e. I wr ot e um down. ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, t hat ’ s t he ones . And he coul d t el l you a l i t t l e mor e about t he hi s t or y of t he chur ch cause he i s ar ound 80 year s ol d and he’ s been i n t he chur ch f or I t hi nk 50 year s , t hat s ame chur ch, and he t el l s good. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I def i ni t el y want t o get t o t he ol der peopl e i n t he communi t y bef or e t hey’ r e gone. ” Sonny Johns on: “ Ri ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I have a f ear of t hat s i nce Jani e j us t —” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, r i ght . So he mi ght be abl e t o t el l you somet hi ng. Thi s i s al l , as f ar as I know, t hi s i s how t he communi t y come i nt o bei ng. And t he s l aves , t hey cont i nued—wel l t hey wer en’ t s l aves , t hey wer e f r eed s l aves—t hey cont i nued t o go back t o t he Cowans pl ant at i on t o wor k ever yday. But t hey wer e, t hey di dn’ t s t ay on—some of t hem el ect ed not t o even l eave of f t he pl ant at i on. They s t ayed t her e i n t he s l ave 123 cabi ns t hough and so f or t h. You know, bei ng uneducat ed and so f or t h, t hey had t hi s i nsecur e f eel i ng. And so t hey di dn’ t l eave. And ot her s di d l eave and set up t hei r communi t y. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Oscar Sher man ment i oned t hat hi s —t he Sher mans had come f r om Wes t Vi r g—I mean not Wes t Vi r gi ni a, Tennessee and wer e bought by Kent . ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, r i ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And j us t what ever year s bef or e t hey wer e set f r ee t her e and t hat ’ s how t hey came t o be i n wher e t hey ar e. ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah I under s t and t he Sher mans wor ked i n t he house mor e or l es s . So t hey was , t hey um, t hey wer en’ t f i el d s l aves . And t hey wer e a l i t t l e mor e t r us t ed and so f or t h and t hey di d wor k i n t he house. ” [ 5: 17] { Kess l er asks Sonny Johnson t o expl ai n t he research t hat Sonny ment i ons he had done. Sonny expl ai ns t hat he l earned a bi t i n hi gh school about how t he communi t y was named. He t hen descr i bes how he l ef t Wake Fores t , and when he began worki ng at Vi rgi ni a Tech’ s Barber Shop} . [ 7: 00] { Sonny expl ai ns t hat he di d not have negat i ve raci al exper i ences at Tech as some of hi s el der s had. He ment i ons some probl ems i n r es t aurant s and i n t he t own of Bl acksburg, but not at Vi rgi ni a Tech} . [ 9: 43] { Kess l er asks about peopl es ’ homes bei ng burnt downs and communi t y t ragedi es t hat may have t aken pl ace. Sonny ment i ons sui ci des i n Wake Fores t } . [ 12: 05] { When asked how many peopl e l i ve i n t he Wake Fores t communi t y, Sonny es t i mat es i t was 125 when he was a boy} . [ 12: 20] { Parent s and grandparent s names . Sonny bei ng rai sed by grandmot her } . [ 14: 06] { Wake Fores t El ement ary School . Ment i oned t eachers ’ names . There were around 25 s t udent s . St udent s car r i ed wat er i n f rom spr i ng and hel ped get coal i ns i de t o heat s chool . He graduat ed i n 1948, and s t ar t ed CI I i n 1949} . [ 19: 10] { CI I havi ng hi gh t ui t i on f or some peopl e whi l e i t was s t i l l a boardi ng school . Hi s graduat i ng group was one of t he f i r s t l arge groups f rom Wake Fores t t o at t end CI I ( around 10 s t udent s ) . No t ui t i on requi red when he went 124 because CI I had become par t of Mont gomery Count y School Sys t em. Es t her Jones and her brot her , Gl enwood Eaves , at t ended and boarded t here, says Sonny}. [ 22: 20] {Whi t et horne Cemet ery}. [ 38: 50] {Mommy Laura, Cl arence Eaves Page’ s Mot her and Oscar Sherman’ s grandmot her . She was “ sor t of l i ke a counsel or” and granny women. Gave out her “ phi l osophy” }. [ 26: 45] {Some of t he Pas t or s of Wake Fores t Bapt i s t : PT Travi s ( not f rom area) , Reverend Cl ay ( f rom Mar i on) , Reverend Johnson ( f rom Roanoke) , Reverend Gl enn Cobbs ( current mi ni s t er at t i me of i nt ervi ew) }. [ 28: 00] Sonny Johns on: “ No, Rever end Beamer —See we got t wo chur ches out her e—Rever end Beamer i s i n t he Hol i nes s , Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s Chur ch. . . See, t hey got a br and new chur ch t her e. The ot her chur ch was Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s Chur ch. And t hat ’ s one r eason t he new chur ch i s t her e, because uh someone back i n t he, way back i n t he {uncl ear} chur ch days bui l t t hat chur ch down t her e, made i t as a non- denomi nat i on chur ch. I t ’ s deeded as non- denomi nat i on. And t hese, t hese ah, Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s want ed t o put up—a Pent ecos t al s i gn up i n i t . Someone t ol d um, ‘ You can’ t do t hat . ’ They want ed t o know why, so t hey went over and sear ched t he r ecor d i n Chr i s t i ansbur g and i t s ays , ‘ deal deeded as a non- denomi nat i on. ’ And he was an uncl e t o t he Sher mans down t her e, but I can’ t t hi nk of hi s , t hi nk of hi s name r i ght of f . Car t er ! Car t er , hi s name was Car t er . I don’ t know i f t hat was hi s l as t name. They cal l hi m Car t er , C A R T E R. ” {Sonny cont i nues about how he di dn’ t per sonal l y know ‘ Car t er . ’ } [ 29: 08] Sonny Johns on: “ He sai d he bui l t t he f i r s t l i t t l e ol d chur ch down t her e, whi ch i s s t i l l down t her e, was a Pent ecos t al . They used i t f or year s as a Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s Chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I s i t t hat l i t t l e chur ch next t o Cl ar ence Page?” Sonny Johns on: “ Cl ar ence, r i ght . That ’ s i t . And t hat chur ch has been t her e a l ong t i me. I t ’ s been t her e ever y s i nce t he whol e t i me I ’ ve been down t her e. Bas i cal l y unchanged. ” [ 31: 04] Sonny Johns on: “ Fr om year s back, f ami l i es woul d be Bapt i s t and f ami l i es woul d be Hol i nes s . ” 125 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What wer e some of t he mai n di f f er ences? How di d t he peopl e get al ong wi t h each ot her ?” Sonny Johns on: “ They got al ong bas i cal l y t oget her , and one ot her t hi ng about t he Bapt i s t chur ch, t he f uner al s have al ways been hel d at t he Bapt i s t chur ch. Ver y f ew f uner al s wer e hel d at t he Hol i nes s chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Even i f t hey wer e member s of t he Hol i nes s Chur ch?” Sonny Johns on: “ That ’ s r i ght , yeah. Ver y f ew. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Why do you t hi nk t hat was?” Sonny Johns on: “ Because t he Bapt i s t chur ch’ s s eat i ng capaci t y i s so much l ar ger . That ’ s one not ed t hi ng you’ l l not i ce about t hat communi t y. I under s t and t hi s i s one r eason, uh, some of t he peopl es want ed t o bui l d t he {newes t } Hol i nes s chur ch, so t hey coul d have t hei r f uner al s i n t hei r own chur ch. I t doesn’ t make any di f f er ence wer e you have your f uner al , i t r eal l y doesn’ t . But t hey al l wer e bur i ed i n t he same cemet er y, and mos t of t hem had t hei r f uner al s at t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. ” [ 32: 08] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d mos t of t he peopl e i n t he communi t y get mar r i ed t her e at t hat chur ch?” Sonny Johns on: “ Wel l , t hey di dn’ t have t oo much—t oo many chur ch weddi ngs t hen. Mos t of t hem got mar r i ed i n houses , or went over t o t he mi ni s t er ’ s house, but t he mi ni s t er —” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How wer e—what was t he cer emony l i ke at t he house? I can’ t , I , nobody got mar r i ed at home when I gr ew up. ” Sonny Johns on: “ They l i ke, i t was mor e or l es s l i ke a r el i gi ous cer emony. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ The mi ni s t er was t her e?” Sonny Johns on: “ The mi ni s t er , yeah, r i ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And par ent s of bot h t he br i de and gr oom?” Sonny Johns on: “ Ri ght , and ot her member s of t he f ami l y, bot h s i des . And j us t ot her peopl e i n t he communi t y. ” 126 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d t hey go about —di d t hey f i x t he house up speci al i n any way?” Sonny Johns on: “ Not t oo much, no. That , I can’ t r emember speci f i cal l y any weddi ngs , but I know t hey di d have t he weddi ngs at t he house mor e so. I can’ t even—back i n my ear l y days , di dn’ t have no weddi ngs at t he chur ch t hat I can r emember . But I know t hey di d have t hem at home. ” [ 33: 30] {Sonny expl ai ns how mos t peopl e di dn’ t get marr i ed i n Wake Fores t at al l . More peopl e were marr i ed i n Bl acksburg dur i ng hi s era}. [ 33: 40] {Roads bei ng paved i n Wake Fores t }. [ 34: 09] Sonny Johns on: “ Mos t peopl e wal ked t o chur ch. They had, usual l y had Sunday School . They had Sunday School and t wo choi r s i n t he chur ch: had a s eni or choi r and t hen a j uni or choi r , cause t hei r was a l ot of ki ds i n communi t y at t he t i me. But even t he ki ds di dn’ t go t o t he chur ch f or r ehear sal , t hey went over t o J ani e Mi l t on’ s house f or r ehear sal , choi r r ehear sal . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ She was t he choi r l eader ?” Sonny Johns on: “ Di r ect or yeah, she, she coul d, she pl ayed t he pi ano. She’ s one of t he f ew peopl e i n t he communi t y who can pl ay pi ano. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey ever use any ot her i ns t r ument s i n t he chur ch?” Sonny Johns on: “ No, not i n t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. They do i n t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What ki nd of i ns t r ument s woul d t hey use at t he Hol i nes s Chur ch?” Sonny Johns on: “ Wel l , t hey use el ect r oni c i ns t r ument s and ampl i f i er s , even now, l i ke dr ums and gui t ar s . But t he Bapt i s t Chur ch, mor e or l es s back i n t hose days , t hey f or bi ded i t . ” [ 35: 15] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What was t he Bapt i sm l i ke?” Sonny Johns on: “ Bapt i sm was hel d i n t he cr eek, of a br anch down t her e, you cr os s r i ght over i t when you go. ” 127 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What ’ s t he name of t he cr eek? Tom’ s Cr eek?” Sonny Johns on: “ No, no. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ No t hat ’ s t oo bi g. That ’ s an awf ul bi g cr eek. ” Sonny Johns on: “ No, i t ’ s a cr eek t hat ’ s down f r om. . . you know wher e t he Bapt i s t Chur ch i s on t he hi l l ? I f you go down, t her e’ s a bal l game, or bal l di amond over f r om t he Bapt i s t Chur ch t her e, and i f you go down, you go down a hi l l acr os s f r om a l i t t l e nar r ow br i dge t her e bef or e you get up t o Cl ar ence Pages ’ . That ’ s , t hat ’ s wher e. They dam t hat up, and t hey had t he bapt i sms t her e. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What di d t hey cal l i t , j us t a bapt i sm pond or somet hi ng? What di d t hey cal l i t ?” Sonny Johns on: “ I don’ t , I don’ t know. I r eal l y can’ t , t hat pond, t hat br anch i s cal l ed The Br anch f or one t hi ng, and i t doesn’ t have any name t o my knowl edge. And t hat ’ s wher e t hey woul d dam i t up and have t he bapt i sms i n t her e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey damn i t up j us t bef or e, or was i t al ways kept ?” Sonny Johns on: “ No, j us t usual l y dammed up j us t bef or e. Jus t f or t hat pur pose. And usual l y t hey l et t he dam l ose af t er t hat caused t hey f ear ed t he ki ds woul d go down and get dr owned. So t hey di dn’ t keep i t damned up. And t her e was one f el l ow i n t he communi t y t hat dr owned t her e, and I t hi nk af t er t hat , di dn’ t t ake no mor e chances . But he was an adul t per son who dr owned. {Sonny cont i nues about Leroy Mi l l s and what exci t i ng news t he drowni ng was i n Wake Fores t . He t al ks about how t he chi l dren were f orbi dden t o swi m or go near t he wat er even bef ore t he drowni ng}. [ 38: 20] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ What was a f uner al l i ke. . . ?” Sonny Johns on: “ Down t her e, ah, l et ’ s s ee, i n t he ear l y days , somebody i n t he communi t y made—back, I can even r emember back when babi es di ed, someone i n t he communi t y, a car pent er , woul d make t he box and t hey woul d dr ape i t wi t h cl ot h. And t hey bur i ed t he ki d i n t hat . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey have much of a s er vi ce?” 128 Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, not a whol e l ot of a s er vi ce f or a young ki d, but f or t he adul t s t hat had al l —al l s er vi ces hel d f or t he Hol i nes s ar e qui t e emot i onal s er vi ces . And t hey’ r e l ong and i n a s ense, t hey sor t of r ej oi ce: i t ’ s a combi nat i on of r ej oi ce and sadness . And t hat ’ s t he Hol i nes s . And t he Bapt i s t ar e s i mi l ar , but t hey do—or peopl e come f r om near and f ar . Even back i n t hose days , peopl e woul d wal k l ong di s t ances . They woul d al ways dr es s up, mos t l y i n dar k cl ot hes . And t hey woul d put a pat ch on t hei r ar m f or member s of t he f ami l y- - had a mar ker , I t hi nk i t was a hear t t hey put on t hei r ar m. . . I know t hey wor e dar k sui t s and I don’ t know whet her women wor e whi t e, but women had a cer t ai n dr es s t hey had t o wear . And t he bl ack—and t he men wor e bl ack sui t s . I know t hat . And t he f ami l y di d have a mar ker of some sor t , s eems l i ke i t was a hear t or somet hi ng. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Was i t j us t t he cl ose ki n or al l ki n?” Sonny Johns on: “ No t he cl ose ki n, i mmedi at e f ami l y, but t hat I don’ t qui t e under s t and. ” [ 40: 54] Sonny Johns on: “ Back t hen t hey had what t hey cal l ed a Wake, t hey woul d br i ng t he body t o t he house, and a l ot of t i mes , once t hi s per son pr epar ed a box and so f or t h, t hen t hey’ d put t he—and t her e’ s one per son i n t he communi t y, and hi s name was Tom Mi l t on, but he was mor e or l es s t he mor t i ci an back i n t he ear l y days . And he woul d uh, pr epar e t he boxes and so f or t h. Cause t hen t hey woul d t ake t he body back t o t he house, you know. And t hey was , and peopl e—t hey’ d have a wake. . . but anyway, s ee i n t he ear l y days l i ke t hat , by not us i ng embal mi ng f l ui d and so f or t h on t he body, you had t o keep t he house cool , you know, peopl e woul d come, and t he r eason t hey’ d have t o come and s t ay awake maybe t wo, maybe a coupl e days : t he body s t ayed i n t he house and peopl e had t o s t ay awake and t hey’ d had t o wat ch t he body t o keep r at s and so f or t h f r om comi ng up t her e, get t i ng on i t or somet hi ng l i ke t hat . And so someone s t ayed and wat ched t he body at al l t i mes . Now, bl ack peopl e s t i l l have what t hey cal l a wake. You f i nd a l ot of i t i n Chr i s t i ansbur g, not t oo much i n t he Bl acksbur g ar ea. They br i ng t he body back t o t he chur ch somet i mes and l eave i t up, l eave i t i n t her e al l ni ght and you know, j us t ol d t r adi t i on. I don’ t s ee no r eason f or um t o do i t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I t ’ s mor e cer emoni al ?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, yeah. But t hey’ l l br i ng t he body back f r om t he chur ch, and have a wake and peopl e s t ay t her e and t hey come, you know, pay 129 t hei r r espect mor e or l es s I ’ d s ay. And t hen t he next day t hey j us t open up t he chur ch, you know, j us t have a f uner al . [ 43: 02] Sonny Johns on: “ But peopl e woul d come near and f ar , and a l ot of t i mes t hey’ d hol d a body out t hr ee or f our days wi t hout bur i al because cl ose r el at i ves l i ved a l ong ways away and t he t r anspor t at i on pr obl em of get t i ng t her e and somet i mes t he money pr obl em of f i nanci al —somet i mes you’ d have t o mai l money t o r el at i ves t o come home f or a f uner al . And t hat hel d um out . ” [ 43: 28] Sonny Johns on: “ The f uner al woul d go on somet i mes f or t wo hour s . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ At t he Bapt i s t Chur ch?” Sonny Johns on: “ At t he Bapt i s t Chur ch, ei t her one, ei t her one of t hem. I t ’ s j us t a l ong f uner al . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Why wer e—why woul d t hey be r ej oi ci ng?” Sonny Johns on: “ I don’ t know. A f uner al i s not r eal l y f or t he dead, i t ’ s f or t he peopl e s t i l l l i vi ng, and t he mi ni s t er al ways emphas i zed t hat f act . . . Rej oi ci ng t hat he’ s l eavi ng t hi s s i nf ul wor l d and goi ng t o a bet t er pl ace t o l i ve, yeah. ” [ 44: 02] Sonny Johns on: “ I t was a combi nat i on of bot h of s adness t o t he f ami l y f or t he i mmedi at e l os s . And, but , t he s er vi ce i n a s ense, and I ’ ve seen ot her s er vi ces t hat ’ s j us t s t r i ct l y s ad, no r ej oi ci ng at al l . But i t ’ s a combi nat i on. But t hey wer e l ong and dr awn out , I do r emember t hat . And I haven’ t been t o t oo many i n my l i f et i me f r om t hat chi l dhood exper i ence. Even now, f uner al ’ s t he l as t pl ace I ’ d go. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I have a har d t i me t her e because peopl e, j us t so of t en peopl e ar e so upset . I har dl y know how t o even r eact . ” Sonny Johns on: “ But so t hey, t hen af t er t hat t hey go out t o t he cemet er y and spend some t i me at t he cemet er y. And usual l y peopl e woul d cook, oh, di shes and f ood and br i ng i t t o t he house t o s er ve t o t he f ami l y. And t hey s t i l l have sor t of a t r adi t i on, or way of doi ng i t now, but t hey don’ t br i ng t he f ood t o t he house. At t he Bapt i s t Chur ch or t he New Hol i nes s Chur ch—t hey haven’ t even had a f uner al t her e yet —af t er t he per son has been bur i ed, t he f ami l y comes back t o t he chur ch and i n t he basement , t hey’ r e s er ved a meal . I t ’ s , t hey do i t at t he chur ch because i t ’ s mor e conveni ent t han t o t ake i t t o t he house. And usual l y af t er t hey 130 ser ve t he meal , t he f ami l y di sper se and go t hei r s epar at e ways . That ’ s even now. But t hen, peopl e woul d br i ng al l t he f ood ar ound. ” [ 45: 34] Sonny Johns on: And t her e’ s one ot her t hi ng about deat h, when someone di e, i t was al ways ever yone i n t he communi t y knew who was s i ck. Back t hen, t hey car ed f or um at t hei r home, t hey di dn’ t go t o t he hospi t al . They was al ways car ed f or at t he home, even l ong per i ods of t i me. ” [ 45: 50] {Whi t e Doct or who was popul ar i n Wake Fores t . Thi s one doct or f rom Bl acksburg, Dr . Huf f man, woul d come down and set up at “ Momma Laura’ s” house. He woul d s t ay many hours , and he woul d eat a meal wi t h t he f ami l y}. [ 48: 20] Sonny Johns on: “ What I was goi ng t o s ay when I s ai d about t he s i ck, once t he per son di ed, t hey woul d come t hr ough t he whol e communi t y spr eadi ng t he wor d. Don’ t car e what t i me of ni ght i t was . I r emember t i mes , peopl e comi ng pecki ng on my gr andmot her ’ s wi ndows and say, ‘ So and so di ed. ’ And t hey’ d t el l you, t el l you t he t i me he di ed. I don’ t know why i t was i mpor t ant t o know t he t i me he di ed and t hey woul d s t op t he cl ocks . Al l cl ocks wer e s t opped. ” [ 48: 48] Sonny Johns on: “ So t he cl ocks wer e s t opped unt i l —we s t ar t ed t hem af t er t he f uner al . Some—I don’ t know when t hey r es t ar t ed i t , but I know t hey woul d s t op t he cl ocks . . . and I know, j us t l i ke now, I somet i mes don’ t know when somebody pas s i n t he communi t y, so I r ead t he paper t he next day, so. Then, you knew t hat ni ght , somebody woul d be des i gnat ed t o go house t o house and spr ead t he wor d. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ To i mmedi at e f ami l y or - - ?” Sonny Johns on: “ No, wasn’ t i mmedi at e f ami l y, no. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So i f i mmedi at e f ami l y was t he onl y per son t her e, t hey had t o l et somebody know. ” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah. They had t o l et ever ybody i n t he communi t y know. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So t hey t ol d somebody and t hat per son went ar ound?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah. Went ar ound, you know. Fr om house t o house, al l over t he whol e communi t y. ” 131 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey—wer e t hey wear i ng any speci al ki nd of memor i al cl ot hi ng?” Sonny Johns on: “ I don’ t t hi nk so. Somet i mes you di dn’ t s ee t hem. They’ d j us t come t o t he door , peck on t he door and par ent s go t o t he door and t el l um, ‘ So and so pas sed at a cer t ai n t i me. ’ They woul d even have t he mi nut e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t he whi t e peopl e ever come t o a bl ack per son’ s f uner al ?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah, t hey di d. Oh, mos t l y t he ones out of McCoy. And when you s t ar t di ggi ng i nt o t he hi s t or y, you’ l l f i nd a l ot of t he whi t e and bl ack, I don’ t want t o s ay ‘ a l ot , ’ s ome of t hem ar e r el at ed, t hey’ r e r el at ed. Especi al l y some of t he Sher mans , t hey’ r e r el at ed. {He cont i nues about i nt er raci al r el at i ons , and how t he coal mi nes brought bot h races t oget her . Two mi nes i n McCoy and boardi ng houses . I saac Eaves ( Sonny’ s uncl e) di ed i n t he mi ne. Sonny never cons i dered worki ng i n t he mi nes . He chose goi ng i nt o t he army rat her t han mi ni ng}. [ 53: 14] {Many of Sonny’ s r el at i ves j oi ned t he armed f orces . Army or coal mi nes were t he onl y opt i ons f or men i n t hose days ; “ no ot her choi ce” i f t hey want ed t o s t ay i n t he communi t y. Nobody ever had l and enough t o make a l i vi ng by f armi ng. Some made a l i t t l e money by l eas i ng l arge parcel s of l and t o f arm}. [ 55: 20] {Coal mi nes woul d cl ose f or Hog Ki l l i ng Day. Everyone di d i t t he same day. He descr i bes t he s t eps and how peopl e had di f f erent j obs ; women woul d cook and some men woul d get drunk of f corn l i quor . The l i quor was not make i n Wake Fores t ; rat her , “ Mos t came f rom Fl oyd Count y” [57: 44] . These were very f es t i ve days i n Wake Fores t }. Sonny Johns on: “ But t hen t oo, t he ot her peopl e, t he r el i gi ous peopl e i n t he communi t y, t hey went over t o t hose t wo chur ches and had r el i gi ous ser vi ces , or Thanksgi vi ng ser vi ces . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ But wer e mos t of t he peopl e i n t he communi t y f ai r l y r el i gi ous?” Sonny Johns on: “ Yeah. Bas i cal l y yeah. You’ l l f i nd i n al l ki nd of communi t i es , any smal l communi t i es t hat ar e pr edomi nat el y Bl ack, t hat mos t of t hem ar e, ar e r el i gi ous . Rel i gi ous or some of t hem ar e not . Over al l , r el i gi ous . What I ’ m sayi ng i s you won’ t f i nd no at hei sm. Ever yone 132 bel i eves i n God i n t he aver age bl ack communi t y, and mor e so back i n t hose days t han now. Ah, s i mpl y because t hey put a gr eat dependency on God because t hei r hope f or t he f ut ur e, r egar dl es s of vi ewpoi nt . And t hey di d. They went t o chur ch a l ot mor e. I woul d say t hat t hose chur ches wer e down on t hei r knees a l ot mor e. They had pr ayer meet i ng and so f or t h—I t hi nk I ment i oned t her e was pr ayer meet i ngs—and a ni ght f or choi r meet i ng. And t hen when we wer e young ki ds , we wer e compel l ed t o go t o Sunday School . That was a mus t . And t hen when we got back f r om Sunday School , we coul dn’ t pl ay car ds , coul dn’ t pl ay basebal l . We had a basebal l game, di amond, r i ght acr os s t he s t r eet f r om us . We coul dn’ t go. We coul dn’ t pl ay no car ds or do anyt hi ng t hat was unpl eas i ng t o God, you know, on Sundays . They r eal l y made t he ser vi ce day hol y, you know. And t hey bel i eved a l ot i n t hat . Ther e’ s so many t hi ngs you j us t coul dn’ t do. And t hen t hey cooked up—on Sunday t hey had, t hat ’ s when you had your bi g speci al meal . So as a ki d, somet i mes you l ooked f or war d t o Sunday because you’ r e goi ng t o have a whol e l ot of di shes and meal you haven’ t been accus t omed t o al l week. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey cook t he meal on Sunday?” Sonny Johns on: “ Somet i mes t hey’ d cook i t Sat ur day, and s t ar t on Sat ur day ni ght . And a l ot of t i mes t hey’ d, you know, ki l l your chi ckens on Sat ur day, you know, ki l l um, pi ck up, put um i n, um, back t hen t hey di dn’ t have no f r eezer r ef r i ger at or . {He el aborat es on chi cken cooki ng} [ 1: 00: 52] “ So t hat was a bi g day {Sunday}. And you f i nd t hat i t was not onl y a bi g day f or chur ch, i t was a bi g day f or r el at i ves comi ng i n t o vi s i t . Seems l i ke t hey came f r om Bl acksbur g ar ea, Chr i s t i ansbur g, and Radf or d. Back when I was a ki d, I was t hi nki ng Bl acksbur g was mi l es away, you know. And peopl e comi ng i n on Sunday f r om Bl acksbur g, I was j us t t hi nki ng t hey came f r om a pl ace as f ar as Roanoke, you know. I t was j us t a bi g t hi ng. And t hey, t hey expect ed peopl e t o come i n, t hey pr epar ed f or t hem you know, meal wi se. And somet i mes t hey’ d pr epar e f or um t o s t ay over ni ght . I t was a l ot of mor e cl oseness i n t he communi t y. A l ot of uni t y. And a l ot of dependence on each ot her , you know. And t hat ’ s r eal l y—t her e was mor e open communi t y. You depended on your nei ghbor f or one t hi ng or t he ot her . And even a l ot of f r ui t s and a l ot of ber r i es t hat gr ew up i n t he nei ghbor hood. Ever ybody had f r ui t t r ees . Ever ybody knew wher e t he s t r awber r i es , and bl ackber r i es and r aspber r i es gr ew; huckl eber r i es , t hey went t o t he mount ai n and pi cked huckl eber r i es . That ’ s somet hi ng I never di d; I was al ways af r ai d, af r ai d of snakes . ” 133 134 Fr ank Banni s t e r—1982 I nt e r vi e we r : Cl yde Ke s s l e r Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: Undes i gnat ed l ocat i on. Not e s : Fr ank Banni s t er was a r espect ed mi ni s t er and l eader i n Wake For es t . Fr ank and hi s wi f e, Ravel l a, have t wo sons , Fr ank Banni s t er J r . and Langs t on Banni s t er . Fr ank was sof t spoken dur i ng t he i nt er vi ew; t her ef or e, much of t he di al og i n t hi s i nt er vi ew i s uncl ear . Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 1: 34] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Ok. And Cowans l et um cl ean i t up?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And he l et um keep f or —what wer e t hey keepi ng i t f or ? Pas t ur e or somet hi ng?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, i t was al l woods . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Al l woods , but t hey kept t he br ush out of t he t i mber or what ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah, t hey kept —t hey had some gar deni ng spot s {uncl ear}. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So i t was j us t f ar m set t l ement s . And t hi s was bef or e 1900?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I don’ t know exact l y when t hat was . {Mr. Banni s t er greet s a nei ghbor pass i ng by where t he i nt ervi ew i s t aki ng pl ace. } That was di r ect l y af t er t hey come out of s l aver y. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : Jus t af t er t hen. . . So j us t af t er t hey came out of s l aver y?” 135 Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ They j us t s et um back t her e i n t he mount ai n. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Set um back i n t he mount ai n. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ {Uncl ear}. . . Bui l t l og cabi ns . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d your gr andma come out , or di d she s t ay down at t he pl ant at i on?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ She s t ayed down at t he pl ant at i on. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d she ever t el l you about t he ki nd of wor k she had t o do when she was a s l ave?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, she was , she di dn’ t . She was known as one of t he house f ol k {uncl ear}. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And what ki nd of dut i es di d she have as one of t he house f ol k?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l you see t hey woul d—{I nt er rupt ed by anot her nei ghbor}. She was t r ai ni ng f or a cook and she kept i n t he ki t chen, her mot her was a cook. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Her mot her was a cook?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ You know what her name was? I t ’ d be your gr eat gr andmot her . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Car ol i ne. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Oh yeah, her name was on t he l i s t : Car ol i ne Pal mer , on t he l i s t . She was a cook?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah, she was Kent ’ s cook. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d—was Kent pr et t y f ai r wi t h hi s—t he s l aves?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Oh, I ’ d say he was . ” 136 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Cons i der i ng what s l aver y was anyway. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I t s eemed t hat t hey wer e wel l f ed, wel l cl ot hed. And {uncl ear}. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey have t o do any of t he ot her dut i es of t he househol d ot her t han cooki ng? Di d t hey have t o do l i ke l aundr y or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, t hey had speci al {uncl ear}. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ They had somebody f or each ki nd of each dut y. They had t hat ki t chen bui l t on out f r om t he mai n house r i ght ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Ri ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d you ever s ee t hem us i ng t hat ki t chen? What was i t l i ke?” {Mr. Banni s t er goes on t o descr i be t he f i r epl ace at Kent l and where t hey’ d cook. He descr i bes how he made f i r es and di d odd j obs around t he f arm when he was a smal l boy}. [ 9: 00- 22: 00] {Hog ki l l i ng t i me, uses of sausage, t urkey meat , l ambs , and sheep}. [ 23: 00] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d your gr andmot her have a pl ace t o her sel f , cabi n or what ever near t he house t her e? {Kent l and “ House” } Or , how di d t hat wor k? Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I t was , ol d s l ave house. They t or e i t down not t oo l ong ago. For t he house s l aves , up f r om t hat ol d r ound l ooki ng t hi ng. ” {Smokehouse bes i de ext er i or ki t chen}. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Hey I ’ ve been up t her e. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Have you?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I know t hat t hey j us t r ecent l y t or e down, not t oo many year s ago, t hey t or e down t he s l ave quar t er s t her e. Wasn’ t i t not t oo l ong ago?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l t hey had t hat house f or t he s l aves . ” 137 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So t hey l i ved—got t o l i ve cl ose. Was i t a f ai r l y bi g cabi n?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Oh yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How many f ami l i es l i ved i n t hat ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Jus t t he house f ami l i es . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And how many wer e t hey?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I don’ t know. ” {Mr. Banni s t er t el l s about hi s grandf at her bei ng f rom Bot et our t . Hi s grandf at her , Mr . Banni s t er , f rom Bot et our t al so, was a boat man. Hi s grandf at her wasn’ t a s l ave, he was a f r eedmen. Howard Sherman was hi s s t ep- grandf at her , hi s grandmot her remarr i ed af t er hi s grandf at her di ed. Howard Sherman was a gardener , veget abl e gardener at Kent l and. Hi s grandmot her s t ayed on Kent l and f arm t o work af t er emanci pat i on}. [ 36: 00] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d your gr andmot her and gr andf at her , f or exampl e, have much pr oper t y of t hei r own? Di d t hey have anyt hi ng much? Wer e t hey al l owed t o have anyt hi ng much?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l yeah, t hey had al l t hey coul d have. He was s t i l l wor ki ng on t he f ar m, he was a t enant f ar mer . They r ent hi m some l and. He’ d wor k t he l and. So much he’ d sel l f or pr oper t y. ” [ 37: 16] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he have hi s own l i t t l e pl ace. . . ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, i t al l di dn’ t go t o Cowan. . . he was one of t he f i r s t ones t o buy l and {Cowan as a l and- purchaser perhaps}” [ 37: 21] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Do you know how Wake For es t got i t s name? The chur ch or t he communi t y t her e, as t hey say, or cal l i t Wake For es t al l t hr ough t her e. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, I don’ t know. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I ’ ve hear d t wo di f f er ent s t or i es f r om peopl e down t her e. One comes f r om Sonny Johnson. He sai d t hat peopl e went i n and set t l ed l i ke over ni ght , and woke t he f or es t up. So t hey cal l ed i t Wake For es t . And t hen anot her per son j us t t ol d me t hat some of t he s l aves 138 or i gi nal l y f r om Wake—ex- s l aves wer e f r om Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na. Not t he col l ege—t he uni ver s i t y, but f r om t he l i t t l e t own down t her e cal l ed Wake For es t —” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I don’ t know f r ankl y i f ei t her one of t hose i s r i ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Jus t l i t t l e l egends , a s cr ew up? I t ’ s got t o have a name f r om some pl ace some wher e how. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Jus t l i ke Whi t et hor ne, you know how i t got i t s name?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ No I don’ t . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Kent ’ s Far m?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d he get i t ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ When t he r ai l r oad come t hr ough t her e, t hem whi t e honey l ocus t s een i n t hat bot t om was bl oomed out , was whi t e. And t hey had a t hor n on um about t hat l ong. And I know t hi s her e i s f act . That ’ s how i t got i t s name Whi t et hor ne. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Fr om t he Locus t t r ee, {uncl ear } and buddi ng. I ’ ve been t r yi ng t o di g i nt o how Wake For es t got i t s name. I under s t and t hey’ r e goi ng t o have a hi s t or y of t he chur ch down t her e comi ng up pr et t y soon, l i ke a f ew mont hs . Sonny Johnson’ s wi f e i s wor ki ng on t hat . So I mi ght be abl e t o f i nd out f r om t hem i f anybody knows . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l , ai n’ t many peopl e knows about . I ’ m t he ol des t ar ound her e. And t el l i ng you t he t r ut h, I woul dn’ t t el l you l i es {uncl ear}. And I onl y know what {uncl ear} and don’ t know who you up on somet hi ng {Mr. Banni s t er i s i ndi cat i ng t hat he’ s not sure where some i nf ormat i on came f rom, but he’ s not goi ng t o t el l anyt hi ng he doesn’ t know or t hi nks i s a l i e}” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l , I , you know, wel l l i ke s ay, t hi s i s accor di ng t o t hi s per son. That ’ s what t hey have sai d. That ’ s what t hey have, you know, t hey may have been t ol d t hat . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ That ’ s t he r eason when you t ol d me you t al ked t o J ani e, I t ol d you al l t hat may not be so. J ani e come f r om Chr i s t i ansbur g, 139 she was over t her e. She don’ t know no mor e t han somebody t ol d her of Wake For es t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l , t hat ’ s t he way we put i t down many t i mes you’ r e deal i ng wi t h t hi ngs you don’ t have a def i ni t e r ecor d of . We j us t have t o s ay, ‘ Accor di ng t o t hi s per son. ’ [ 40: 20] Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah, t hat ’ s t he way i t wor ks . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ You know, mos t of t he peopl e event ual l y l ef t t he f ar m down t her e and set t l ed by—at Wake For es t or t hat Long Shop or somewher e i n t hat ar ea, by when? When had t hey pr et t y much l ef t t he f ar m?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l , some of my r el at i ves l ef t t he f ar m, went t o Buckski n, I owa. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Buckski n, I owa?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Way, way out t her e. See t her e’ s t r anspor t at i on pai d your way. Jobs opened up ar ound, a whol e l ot of f ol ks l ef t , went out t her e. Wasn’ t many peopl e, but some of t hem. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ A l ot of t he Banni s t er f ami l y went on and Sher mans?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l , t hey was Cal l er s t hen. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ A l ot of Cal l er s went out t hi s ar ea of I owa?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah, my uncl e Buck went out t her e, but he come back. See, some come back, s et t l ed back her e. They di dn’ t l i ke i t . But you know how t hose t r anspor t at i ons came t hr ough. {Fur t her descr i pt i on of peopl e l eavi ng and comi ng back. They were encouraged t o t ake advant age of t hi s ar ranged t ranspor t at i on, but some s t i l l r et urned}. [ 43: 00] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Rever end Shadd?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Ophel i a Bol l and was t al ki ng about hi m, s ai d t hat was t he f i r s t t each she ever had i n t he school t her e—sai d he was a ver y s t r i ct di sci pl i nar i an. ” 140 Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah. Now I don’ t know wher e he come f r om. He coul d have come f r om Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na, but I don’ t know. I woul dn’ t s ay. But I —he was t he ar chi t ect of t he chur ch. He pl anned t he chur ch, you know. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Do you t hi nk t he chur ch acqui r ed i t s name, and t he communi t y was named af t er t he chur ch?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I t ’ s Wake For es t Bapt i s t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ He was f r om Nor t h Car ol i na?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Who Shadd?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Yeah. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I don’ t know, t hat ’ s what I —” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I ’ m goi ng t o be doi ng some checki ng on hi m. He sounds l i ke a key per son t o f i nd out about . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ He was . Fi nd out somet hi ng about Shadd. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l , t hey’ r e havi ng t hat chur ch day, so t hey’ r e bound t o be havi ng somet hi ng about hi m t her e. ” [ 44: 09] Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ He was , uh, Capt ai n Schaef f er {Capt ai n Char l es S. Schaef f er}, f r om Pennsyl vani a, es t abl i shed Shadd t he l i t t l e chur ch t her e. You know, he was sent her e t o r el i gi ous l y educat e t he s l aves . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ He was t he one f or Shaf f er Memor i al down her e t hat ’ s named af t er hi m. Di d he wor k any wi t h t he one at Wake For es t ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Oh yeah. He wor ked on down t he r oad t o El l i s t on, r oad t o El l i s t on, on down t owar d Roanoke. He wor ked wi t h t he col or ed peopl e, but t hey bui l t t hat chur ch over t her e and t hat s chool , and he was over t hat . And when uh, now t her e was anot her pr eacher t hat had t aken hi s pl ace: S. A. Smi t h. He come t her e. He was {uncl ear }. I t hi nk t hey sent hi m f r om Pennsyl vani a, I don’ t know. I t coul d have been i n Nor t h Car ol i na. I can’ t s ay. You t r y t o f i nd out . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Some of t hese peopl e mi ght be key i n t he nami ng t he communi t y you t hi nk?” 141 Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Now I know t hat , t hese, t he, t hese whol e i deas of how t he communi t y got i t s name i s comi ng f r om t he younger peopl e, you know. Li ke I asked Cl ar ence Page and he sai d he di dn’ t know how i t got i t s name. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I don’ t ei t her . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And I f i gur e y’ al l wer e t her e and peopl e wer e t her e when t he communi t y got s t ar t ed and t hey’ r e j us t goi ng by what somebody has—what t hey t hi nk or what somebody’ s t ol d t hem. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I won’ t s ay, but I do know how Whi t et hor ne got i t s name. ” [ 46: 15] {Nami ng of Long Shop}. [ 48: 34] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Let ' s s ee now, you ment i oned f or t y- f i ve f ami l i es on f or t y- f i ve acr es . Now t hi s was—was t hi s i n Wake For es t , or was t hi s—” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah, t hat was i n Wake For es t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Was t hat —now, t her e was ot her pi eces of l and t oo t hat became Wake For es t t oo r i ght ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l af t er , way l at er on year s af t er , J . R. Cowans want t o gi ve s t at e r i ght - away back i nt o t he mount ai ns . And he r un t hat f ence, uh, hi ghway. And r i ght s t r ai ght wi t h t he l i ne who t her e. And t her e was ot her peopl e l i vi ng over on t hat s i de of t he l i ne, but —whi ch i s known as Wake For es t t oo. You coul dn' t conf i ne t hat f or t y f i ve acr es t o Wake For es t . Cause t he McCoys had sol d- mat t er of f act , McCoys sol d us our gr aveyar d, and a f ew ot her f ami l i es : The Eaves ' and so f or t h, l and up t her e i n t he mount ai n. They go i n Wake For es t t oo. But i t ' s uh, and 45 acr es l ays f r om t he hi ghway down t o gr aves l i ne. That was t he or i gi nal . But j us t l i ke I t ol d you bef or e hand, i t was some of t hem l i ve down at Long Shop, some of um up at Pr i ce, some of um ever ywher e ar ound, and our chur ch was supposed t o been i n t he cent er . You know, t hey t r i ed t o put i t i n t he cent er of t he communi t y. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Equal di s t ance f or ever ybody. Now what wer e some of t he names of t he peopl e t hat came f r om t he Cowans pl ace j us t s et t l ed. . . . ?” 142 [ 52: 31] {Burned homes i n t he communi t y}. [ 50: 55] {Names of s l aves}. [ 53: 28] Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Whi t e and col or ed al ways got al ong good. We wor ked wi t h t he whi t es al l our l i ves . They wer e i n t he mi nes , t hey wer e, you even met um f or t he pet i t i on i n t he bat hr oom. Al ways t oget her , al ways f i ne. I t hi nk somet i mes we had t he bes t whi t e peopl e t hat ar e f r om Fl oyd: ar e t he bes t s et of whi t e peopl e I ’ ve ever s een anywher e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l do you t hi ngs ar e bet t er now or wor se?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ What ?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Bet ween Bl acks and Whi t es ar ound her e. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ I t i sn’ t no di f f er ent . We al ways got al ong good. ” [ 55: 45] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Now, when t he chur ch was s t ar t ed, di d um—t her e was ver y f ew peopl e di dn' t go r i ght ? Di d anybody not ever go? I mean was t her e some peopl e t hat j us t s t ayed away f r om chur ch, you know?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l t hey' r e doi ng t hat her e {t he current condi t i on of t he Wake Fores t churches i n 1982}. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I know. ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ They do i t mor e now. See when t hey f i r s t s t ar t ed t he chur ch down t her e, i t was a Met hodi s t Chur ch, and t hen Capt ai n Schaef f er come i n her e and he, suppose made i t a Bapt i s t . Then l at er on, t he Hol i nes s chur ch got s t ar t ed. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Now Sonny Johnson was t el l i ng me t hat t he Hol i nes s Chur ch was r eal l y des i gned and pl anned and was deeded t o be non-denomi nat i onal and somebody t ur ned i t i nt o a Hol i nes s Chur ch. I t was supposed t o have been f or al l denomi nat i ons t o get t oget her . He sai d he checked on t hat deed or somet hi ng l i ke t hat and t hey had t hat or i gi nal l y pl anned. Now I don' t know, t hat ' s j us t , you know, I ' m j us t one bi t - by- bi t t r yi ng t o f i nd out . ” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wel l my gr andpa gi ve l and t o bui l d t he chur ch. ” 143 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And i t was al ways Hol i nes s?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Non- Sect ar i an. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Non- Sect ar i an?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ And t hey want ed t o change t he name of i t , and t hey changed i t t wo or t hr ee t i mes . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ That ' s what he meant by non- denomi nat i onal , was Non-Sect ar i an?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Yeah. And when I j oi ned t he chur ch {Bapt i s t Church}, s ee my gr andf at her , he bel onged t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. And when t he Hol i nes s spoke out t her e and t hey' d do a l ot of commot i on goi ng on, a l ot of f ol ks f r om t he Bapt i s t went over t her e and j oi ned t hem. And when I got r eady t o change t he or der , I t ol d my gr andf at her , I s ai d, ‘ Wel l now, I ' l l s t ay over t o your chur ch {Bapt i s t Church} i f you say so, cause I ' m your el des t {uncl ear}. He s ai d, ‘ No, you s t ay wher e you' r e at . I t ' s bet t er f or you t o be at wher e you' r e at {uncl ear}’ What I know now, I ' d never l ef t my chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ You wer e at t he Bapt i s t Chur ch and t hen you went t o t he—” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, I di dn' t go t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ You s t ayed t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch because of your gr andf at her ' s advi ce?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Huhumn. See t hat ot her chur ch {Hol i nes s Church} was j us t a f ami l y chur ch. And i f you wasn' t an Eaves , you di dn' t get no voi ce i n i t . The Eaves was r unni ng i t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l who was t he f i r s t pr eacher , f i r s t pr eacher t her e?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Wher e?” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ At t he Hol i nes s” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Oh chi l d, t hey had so many you coul dn' t count . ” 144 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Char l i e Eaves?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, Wasn' t no, wasn' t no bl ack mi ni s t er come i n t her e. Whi t e f ol ks come i n t her e and s t ar t ed um al l . Now we had t hi s AC Smi t h I was t el l i ng you about . And he was pr eachi ng and he—never wi l l f or get a s er mon he pr eached af t er ol der f ol ks came i n t her e. They made up t hei r mi nd t hey was goi ng t o shut hi m out ; wasn' t goi ng t o l et hi m pr each af t er t hat , and he di dn' t pay no at t ent i on {uncl ear} And he t ol d t he t r ut h. He was a good pr eacher . He' d come t her e once a mont h and i n t he wi nt er t i me, he' d have a box of hor ehound candy. And he' d s t ar t at one end of t hat communi t y and get ever y chi l d f r om t hat hi gh on up, and t ake um t o Sunday School , gi ve um al l a s t i ck of hor ehound candy. And summer t i me, you know how t hey used t o come i n boxes , pepper mi nt . And so he' d do t he same t hi ng year ‘ r ound. He was a wonder f ul man. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d he l i ve i n t he communi t y or di d he- ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ He l i ved i n Chr i s t i ansbur g. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Chr i s t i ansbur g?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ See, t hey sent hi m her e t o t ake car e of Chr i s t i ansbur g Chur ch, t hat Capt ai n Schaef f er f i ni shed t her e. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So he ki nd of t ook car e of bot h pl aces?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ Took car e of bot h pl aces . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wel l di d he come down j us t about ever y Sunday or - ?” Fr ank Banni s t e r : “ No, you had ser vi ce once a mont h, come on down t he t hi r d Sunday, go t o somebody el se al l t he r es t of um. ” 145 Os c ar She r man—Jul y 8, 1982 I nt e r vi e we r : Cl yde Ke s s l e r Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: Undes i gnat ed Locat i on Not e s : Oscar Sher man was t he son of Rober t and Juani t a Yvonne Sher man. He was r ai sed i n a f ami l y of 14 chi l dr en. Oscar was a Wake For es t nat i ve, f ai t hf ul l y mar r i ed t o Dor ot hy Sher man. He was commi t t ed t o hi s communi t y and gat her ed a gr eat deal of l ocal hi s t or y i n hi s l at er year s . Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d, um, t he t own of Wake For es t get i t s name or t he communi t y of Wake For es t get i t s name?” Os c ar She r man: “ The communi t y got i t s name because of ah, a gr oup of s l aves was f r eed down at Cowan’ s pr oper t y t hat had been bought wi t h anot her bunch of s l aves f r om Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na. And when t hey was f r eed t hen, what pr oper t y he gave her e, he gi ve t o Wake For es t . And I under s t and t hat he gave t o one per son, Peat Ar ms t r ong. And down t hr ough t he year s i t ’ s been di vi ded and, you know, sol d and r esol d t o gener at i on t o gener at i on. But i t come f r om s l aves , Wake For es t s l aves t hat came out of Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Do you know any of t he peopl e t hat wer e descended f r om t hat , descendent s f r om t hat gr oup t hat came f r om down i n Nor t h Car ol i na? Or di d t hey have a di f f er ent s et of names?” Os c ar She r man: “ I woul d t hi nk, I woul d t hi nk so. Now, my, my peopl e, Sher mans , came f r om ah—” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Whi t et hor ne down i n her e?” Os c ar She r man: “ No, came f r om Tennessee or i gi nal l y. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Tennessee. ” 146 Os c ar She r man: “ They came f r om Tennessee t o t hi s Whi t et hor ne Far ms . They t el l me t her e’ s a whol e communi t y of Sher mans i n Tennessee, about t he same pl ace we or i gi nal l y came f r om. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ That ’ s t he ki nd of pi ct ur e I ’ m t r yi ng t o get of t he begi nni ng of t he communi t y—how t he communi t y, um, began t o gr ow. Or l i ke uh, Cl ar ence Page ment i oned t hat j us t bef or e t he mi nes shut down, t her e was over 30 f ami l i es down her e, he t hought . That ’ s how he r emember s i t . ” Os c ar She r man: “ Ri ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ So over 30 f ami l i es down her e i s as bi g as t he communi t y ever got . ” Os c ar She r man: “ That ’ s r i ght . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And he sai d t he mi nes shut down i n t he ear l y 50’ s , ‘ 54 or somet hi ng l i ke t hat . ” Os c ar She r man: “ Ri ght ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And uh, and a l ot of peopl e l ef t cause t hey coul dn’ t f i nd j obs . And t hat ’ s under s t andabl e; a l ot of peopl e f r om my home count y di d t he ver y same t hi ng. Di d you have—you say you wor ked a l ot i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a. You have, you had t o go out of t he ar ea t o f i nd wor k f or a l i t t l e whi l e?” Os c ar She r man: “ Yeah, I l ef t when I was young, i n ‘ 40—wel l ‘ 48, went t o Wes t Vi r gi ni a f or t he coal mi nes . And t hen I mar r i ed t he gi r l t hat l i ved next door and s t ayed t her e f or ar ound 16 year s . And t hen I came back her e. When I f i r s t came back, I l i ved i n t he home pl ace t her e; house about 20 s t eps f r om t hi s house. And I l i ved i n i t unt i l I bui l t t hi s house and t hen I t or e t hat house down. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And how ol d was t hat house?” Os c ar She r man: “ That house was bui l t bef or e when I was bor n. 50 some year s ol d. ” [ 3: 35] {Wake Fores t as a qui et nei ghborhood}. [ 4: 04] 147 {Onl y one whi t e f ami l y used t o l i ve i n Wake Fores t . Al l bl ack communi t y unt i l r ecent l y}. [ 6: 20] {Some Brot her s and Si s t er s of Mr . Sherman movi ng out of t he area}. [ 7: 06] {Hi s grandf at her rai sed Cl arence Page’ s wi f e and her s i s t er as t hei r s t epf at her}. [ 8: 29] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Does t he chur ch her e have r ecor ds of t he weddi ngs and f uner al s or ot her gat her i ngs of peopl e, ot her i nf or mat i on of t hat ki nd? Any of t hat ki nd of i nf or mat i on?” Os c ar She r man: “ I , I r eal l y don’ t know. I expect on t he hi s t or y of t hat ki nd t hat woul d be i n f ami l y bi bl es and so f or t h, j us t f ami l y r ecor ds . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ I pr obabl y wi l l be l ooki ng i nt o t hat a l i t t l e bi t , but f ur t her down t he l i ne. I ’ m t r yi ng t o get t o know some of t he peopl e. I f you know any young peopl e or anybody, young t o me coul d mean any age. Young at hear t or anybody t hat ’ s abl e t o get about and be i nt er es t ed i n hel pi ng wi t h t hi s some eveni ngs when I ’ m down her e or we can j us t go t oget her ar ound and t al k t o peopl e. Jus t pas s t he wor d on out t o. ” Os c ar She r man: “ I ’ ve got a br ot her over her e who’ s awf ul act i ve. He’ s r et i r ed. He’ s 65, Homer Sher man. And he’ s r et i r ed. He coul d, he, um, shoul d be wi l l i ng, you know, t o put some t i me i nt o i t . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Oh, t hat ’ d be gr eat . ” [ 10: 50] {Dai l y chores : worki ng i n corn f i el ds , pi cki ng wi l d bl ueberr i es , huckl eberr i es , t raded huckl eberr i es at Long Shop f or goods or “ due s l i ps” } . [ 12: 30] {14 chi l dren i n Oscar ’ s f ami l y, s cat t er everywhere: Aut hor , Homer , Wal l ace, {uncl ear} , {uncl ear} , John, Cynt hi a, James , {uncl ear} , Wi l l i am, Oscar , Amy ( Char l es Johnson’ s wi f e) , Frank, & Li l l i an}. [ 19: 00] {Descr i pt i on of hi s Uncl es and Aunt s} Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How do you r emember your f i r s t Chr i s t mas?” Os c ar She r man: “ Ver y smal l . Man dad al ways pr ovi ded, he wor ked away f r om home, but he was al ways home—” 148 Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Wher e di d he wor k?” Os c ar She r man: “ He wor ked on Wes t Vi r gi ni a, on Bl uef i el d, and he al ways come home. And we’ d al ways have Chr i s t mas even t hough i t was 14 chi l dr en. ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Was i t t he Sant a Cl ause s t yl e of Chr i s t mas?” Os c ar She r man: “ I t was Sant a Cl ause s t yl e of Chr i s t mas and bet t er , bet t er poi nt over t han i t i s t oday. Mos t l y f eas t , not , not t oo much f ool i shness , you know. Cl ot hes and t hat ki nd of t hi ng and pl ent y of f ood. And ah, Good spi r i t s , but not a l ot of j unk and t oys . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ And peopl e pr obabl y appr eci at ed what t hey got a l ot mor e. I don’ t doubt t hat . ” [ 21: 45] {Descr i pt i on of bei ng 10t h i n l i ne of a bi g f ami l y. Games as chi l dren such as basebal l . James Sherman was on t ravel i ng basebal l t eam. Si x brot her s on one t eam, a very good t eam f rom Wake Fores t . Pl ayi ng ot her bl ack t eams mai nl y. Pl ayi ng i n Parrot , Radf ord Park, Ashvi l l e}. [ 25: 10] {Hi s f i r s t day of s chool , he snuck away f rom school and came home. Want ed t o avoi d choi r s of get t i ng up wood and wat er . Descr i bes s chool bui l di ng and grades 1- 7 i n one room. Es t i mat es 40 s t udent s t ot al wi t h one t eacher . One of hi s l as t l i vi ng t eachers , Mr . Ladoni a Carr and Zi mer i Hol mes . “ I had good pot ent i al , but no oppor t uni t y” } . [ 30: 19] {Descr i pt i on of CI I : he coul d at t end buy onl y i f t hey boarded t here. No bus r i de avai l abl e back and f or t h. He coul d have worked t here i n summer t o earn hi s keep. Younger s i s t er s and brot her s were abl e t o at t end af t er t hey s t opped boardi ng, t hey got a s chool bus t o t he school }. [ 32: 10] Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ Di d t hey t el l you any t al es , ghos t s t or i es . . . ?” Os c ar She r man: “ They t el l you ghos t s t or i es t o keep you f r om goi ng out at ni ght , s eei ng what was goi ng on. ” {Cl yde t el l s a s t ory t hat Cl arence Page t ol d hi m. St or i es t o keep you i n at ni ght : Bl ack Cat Man, boi l i ng t he bones of cat s and t hat man had powers . Cl yde t el l s a Bl ack Cat Man s t ory t hat Jani e Mi l l s t ol d hi m. Wi t hi n Wake Fores t , Washi ngt on Eaves shared s t or i es , as wel l as Bruce Mi l t on. Washi ngt on woul d t el l wi t ch and ghos t s s t or i es}. 149 [ 37: 27] Os c ar She r man: “ I ’ ve had br ot her s and s i s t er s bor n i n t he same house t hat I l i ved t hat I di dn’ t even know my mot her was pr egnant . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ They kept t hat s ecr et ? They di dn’ t al l ow t he ki ds t o—” Os c ar She r man: “ No, I went wi t h peopl e f r om her e when t he chi l d was goi ng t o be bor n i n t he communi t y, had a mi dwi f e, but i f t hey woul d cal l f or doct or , doct or uh, H. F. Huf f man, he, he woul d come. He woul d, I can r emember when he had t he f i r s t ol d car , but bef or e t hat , he had a hor se and a buggy. He’ d come al l t he way f r om Bl acksbur g, out on Ai r por t Rd. out t her e. Cause t hat was t he mai n hi ghway at t he t i me. He woul d come al l t he way her e. . . ” [ 39: 00] Os c ar She r man: “ But i f a chi l d was bor n i n t hi s house, we chi l dr en at ni ght woul d go s t ay at a nei ghbor ’ s house. We di dn’ t know. We’ d come back t he next mor ni ng and we’ d have a br ot her or s i s t er . ” Cl yde Ke s s l e r : “ How di d t hey expl ai n t hat t o you? Di d t hey say t he s t or k came or somet hi ng?” Os c ar She r man: “ They cl ai med t hat t he doct or br ought i t i n t hat bag. ” 150 He nr y Eave s—Januar y 24, 2008 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: At t he di ni ng r oom t abl e i n t he home of Henr y and Benzena Eaves , Wake For es t , Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : Henr y Eaves i s nat i ve t o Wake For es t . He i s a descendant of t he or i gi nal Wake For es t i nhabi t ant s . Hi s f at her was a car pent er , and Henr y f ol l owed i n t hose f oot s t eps . He and hi s wi f e, Benzena Eaves , have t hr ee daught er s who no l onger l i ve i n Wake For es t . Henr y wor ked br i ef l y i n Nor t her n Vi r gi ni a bef or e movi ng back t o Wake For es t and bui l di ng a house i n t he l at e 1960’ s . I n addi t i on t o car pent r y wor k, he and Benzena manage a Real Es t at e bus i nes s . They at t end Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch. Henr y was r ai sed i n t hat chur ch. Al t hough t he chur ch was cl osed f or s ever al year s , he and Benzena wer e i ns t r ument al i n havi ng i t r eopened i n 2003. Si nce r eopeni ng, Henr y has used hi s car pent r y ski l l s t o make t r emendous i mpr ovement s t o t he chur ch. Henr y i s s i xt y- ei ght year s ol d i n t he year of t hi s i nt er vi ew, i n J anuar y, 2008. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . Mi nor changes f r om t he r ecor ded i nt er vi ew have been made t o t r anscr i pt i on by i nt er vi ewee. [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 0: 01] Mor gan Cai n: “ How di d you come t o know t he i nf or mat i on t hat you do now?” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l bas i cal l y t hr ough l i vi ng exper i ence her e. ” [ 5: 00] {Descr i pt i on of j obs peopl e had i n ear l y Wake Fores t years}. [ 7: 39] He nr y Eave s : “ My under s t andi ng i s mos t of t he descendent s came f r om t hat pl ant at i on, down at Whi t et hor ne. Some par t s of wher e I ’ ve r ead, t hat hi s t or y t ol d us t hat , how t hi s ar ea was devel oped. And t hi s ar ea was devel oped, out of neces s i t y. Real l y, i t was af t er t hey ended t he war , when t he Bl acks was f r eed, t hey chose t hi s ar ea—al l t he pl ant at i on owner s chose t hi s ar ea bef or e s el l i ng. And t he r eason t hey chose t hi s ar ea, i s wher e 151 t hey combi ned al l t he bl acks of f t hei r pl ant at i on t o t hi s ar ea, was because t hey needed someone t o wor k t he f ar ms and t he pl ant at i on. The owner s of t he pl ant at i on needed someone t o wor k t he f ar m and t he bl acks needed t o make a l i vi ng. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Was t hi s somet hi ng your dad t al ked about t oo?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, my dad, j us t about ever ybody her e t al ks about i t . We’ ve had a hi s t or y l i ke t hr ough our chur ch. One women t hat was , t her e was a l ady named Mar gar et Cowan; she was an over seer of t he pl ant at i on at t he end of t he war . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Mar gar et Cowan?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, and i t ’ s pr et t y wel l document ed i n hi s t or y t hat t hi s i s what happened. She was cont r ol l er of t he pl ant at i on and evi dent i al l y she was a ver y power f ul woman. But she l i ved down i n Whi t et hor ne ar ea. But af t er t he end of t he war , she sor t of became l i ke t he over seer . She was over seer of mos t of t he bl acks because mos t of t hem came of f t he pl ant at i on and she l ooked out f or t hem. So t hat , t hr ough t hi s pr oces s i t was made, I don’ t know i f anyone ever r esear ched t he hi s t or y of t hat l ady at al l , but as f ar as I ’ m concer ned, t he woman had t o have been ver y br i ght . Because she l ai d as i de l and t hat coul dn’ t be t ouched f or cemet er i es , r ecr eat i ons . She donat ed l and f or chur ches , t hi ngs l i ke t hat . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ So i t ’ s your under s t andi ng t hat t hat was Mar gar et Cowan?” He nr y Eave s : “ Ri ght . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Um, I ’ ve seen some di f f er ent pl aces wher e i t was El i zabet h Kent who gave l and a l i t t l e bi t down t he r oad t o some of her ex-s l aves . And t hen I ’ ve al so seen document ed t hat i t was Mar gar et ’ s husband Ker nel —or Maj or Cowan t hat gave l and. But t her e some di scr epancy t her e t hat maybe he wasn’ t a ki nd man at al l and he had not hi ng t o do wi t h t he gi vi ng of l and. ” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah. Wel l I don’ t know, I ’ ve never hear d or s een wher e she gave t he l and. Al t hough, i t has been document ed t hat t he l and f or t he chur ch, whi ch i s t he l i t t l e chur ch we have up her e, she was t he over seer of t hat , and al l t he r es t of t he l and her e i n Wake For es t . I t s eemed l i ke al l t he men t hat was Kent ’ s—a book t hat I have says : al l of 152 t hem was away f i ght i ng dur i ng t he Ci vi l War . So t hey l ef t t he cont r ol l i ng of t he pl ant at i on mos t l y t o I guess t he women or what ever as over seer . And t hi s was wher e Mar gar et Cowans came i n. She was t he over seer of Kent l and Far m. And I ’ ve r ead i n a book, r esear ch book, t hat Kent l and f ar m, a l ot of peopl e don’ t r eal i ze how bi g Kent l and f ar m was , but Kent l and f ar m was a l and cor por at i on, and i t cover ed f i ve di f f er ent s t at es . I t was huge. And um, some of t he pl aces t hey had—I woul d guess t he peopl e ar e s t i l l her e, i n t hi s communi t y, t he descendent s of t hem was f r om descendent s f r om t he pl ant at i on wher e t hey became car pent er s , bl acksmi t hs , br i ck masons or what ever , because t hat ’ s what t hey di d on t he pl ant at i on. And i t ’ s r emar kabl e how I was r eadi ng an ar t i cl e wher e i t was a pl ace down on t he pl ant at i on, a l i t t l e par t , t hat , t her e was a f ami l y down t her e t hat got mar r i ed and t hey had t he f ur ni t ur e i n Ri chmond, Vi r gi ni a. {Det ai l s of how t hi s f urni t ure was dr i ven f rom Pet er sburg, raf t ed al l t he way i nt o Roanoke at t he James Ri ver cross i ng, and t hen t ranspor t ed t o Kent l and by carr i age}. [ 15: 04] “ Thi s t r ee r i ght her e {poi nt i ng t o a t r ee s t andi ng i n f ront of t he r i ght s i de of hi s home}, t hi s mapl e t r ee was pl ant ed—my f at her {Wi l l i am Chr i s t mas Eaves} t ol d me t hat he and hi s f at her was cl ear i ng some l and of f down at Whi t et hor ne, and he pul l ed up j us t a t wi g, swag, s apl i ng. One of t hem or my gr andma pl ant ed i t . So t hat s t ood out . And t hen af t er I bui l t t hi s house, my f at her had a s t r oke. He l i ved, he had a s t r oke i n Oct ober and he di ed i n Jul y. That year , t he t r ee di dn’ t bear a l eaf ( t hat spr i ng and summer t hat he was s i ck, you know) . He was comat ose f or qui t e a bi t , wel l Augus t —j us t about al l of summer and spr i ng. And i t j us t , l i t t l e buds j us t came out on i t , but never bl oomed out . So I had, I was concer ned about i t , so I had a t r ee sur geon come down f r om Tech. And t hey came down and checked i t out , he s ai d, ‘ Wel l ai n’ t not hi ng wr ong wi t h you t r ee. ’ The onl y t hi ng t hey coul d say i s i t was i n r emi s s i on. And t he next year , wel l af t er he pas sed away, t he next year t he t r ee come back l i ke i t al ways di d, you know and ever yt hi ng. But t hat i s j us t par t of t he hi s t or y t hat i s r i ght her e i n t hi s f ami l y, t hat I wi t nes sed. ” [ 16: 45] He nr y Eave s : “ Wake For es t , t o me, i s , i t ’ s a ver y sacr ed pl ace, even r i ght t oday. ” {Feel i ng saf e i n t he communi t y and t he gi vi ng nat ure of peopl e}. [ 18: 20] { Probl ems wi t h government : cl ear i ng t he roads , i ce s craped, t r ees cl eared, et c, but t hose are t hi ngs t hey’ re accus t omed wi t h; t hey don’ t get upset about i t . } [ 21: 04] 153 Mor gan Cai n: “ Do you have any per sonal t heor y why i t ’ s so nei ghbor l y and why peopl e ar e t hat way?” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l , yeah I do. My per sonal t heor y was t hat —my f at her used t o wor k i n t he coal mi nes and he t ol d me one t i me about t he t heor y of peopl e her e, bot h bl ack and whi t e. Li ke I s ai d, mos t of t he men—bl ack and whi t e—al l wor ked i n t he coal mi ne. And t he s i mpl e sol ut i on was t hat , he s ai d, t hat once you go i ns i de t hat coal mi ne, you was al l t he s ame col or . So I ’ ve never r eal l y wi t nes sed no heavy pr ej udi ces l i vi ng her e, al t hough we goi ng t o f i nd i t anywher e you go, you know, i n a smal l communi t y. But her e, no. You mi ght have a man cal l i ng you a name t hat you don’ t l i ke, but he’ s gi vi ng you t he l as t bi t of f ood he’ s got i n hi s house. So you can get mad at hi m f or cal l i ng you t he name, but you pr obabl y get mad at hi m f or not f eedi ng you. ” [ 22: 17] He nr y Eave s : “ And so, t hat ’ s t he way I ’ ve al ways l ooked at i t and i t ’ s al ways been t hat way. I t ’ s al ways been nei ghbor i ng and hel pi ng and ver y suppor t i ve of j us t about ever ybody r ound her e. ” [ 22: 53] He nr y Eave s : “ The l ovi ng and t he car e- gi vi ng t hat t hese peopl e her e i s ver y, ver y—how woul d I put i t ?—ver y, ver y r ar e. We’ ve had peopl e t hat come t hr ough t hi s ar ea t hat spend t he ni ght wi t h f ami l i es t hey never s een, j us t because t hey was i n need. Whet her t he per son t hat ’ s pr ovi di ng t he need f or t hese peopl e—even i f t hey had a f ul l f ami l y—t her e was al ways r oom f or a f ew mor e. And t hat was t he t ype of camar ader i e we had her e. And we s t i l l have i t . We don’ t have i t as much as we used t o, but i t ai n’ t t hat much of a gap bet ween now and when I was a ki d. ” [ 24: 00] {Descr i pt i on of goi ng t o t he school above Wake Fores t Bapt i s t Church, di f f erent j obs he had at t he school . Hi s t eachers and Vi rgi ni a Mayo, a s t ern di sci pl i nar i an}. [ 32: 00] {Nami ng a f ew negat i ve t hi ngs t hat have happened i n t he area}. [ 32: 54] He nr y Eave s : “ I r ead i t ’ s a Fol kl or e, ol d Af r i can Fol kl or e t hey t el l me, I don’ t know f or sur e i f t hat ’ s t he t r ut h or not . They say: I t t akes t he whol e vi l l age t o r ai s e t he ki d. That ’ s t he way t hi s i s {t he way you rai se chi l dren i n Wake Fores t }. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ I s i t s t i l l t hat way?” He nr y Eave s : “ I t ’ s s t i l l t hat way. You know, i t ’ s s t i l l t hat way. I had a man, t her e was a man, but he dead now, my uncl e. He was t he ol des t 154 man i n t he communi t y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Who’ s t hat ?” He nr y Eave s : “ Hi s name was Geor ge Banni s t er . At t he t i me, he was t he ol des t man i n t he communi t y. And a f ami l y moved her e f r om Gi l es Count y and t hi s women had seven or ei ght ki ds . And she had a ver y, ver y mean boy. I mean he was bi g f or hi s age, har d headed, and ever yt hi ng. And you coul dn’ t t el l hi m not hi ng. So peopl e had a way, i f t hey di dn’ t have no t el ephone t o communi cat e, t hey wr ot e not es . So hi s mot her wr ot e t hi s man over her e {George Banni s t er} a not e, and t ol d hi m t o beat hi m cause he wasn’ t mi ndi ng her . So t he man r ead t he not e, t ook hi s pocket kni f e and pul l ed i t , cut hi m of f a gr apevi ne, and commenced t o whi p hi m. So he was s i t t i ng her e and he t ol d us—wel l , s ee we al l knew. So anyway, he t el l s us t hat he coul dn’ t s t and t he man cause t he man l i ked t o beat hi m t o deat h. So I asked hi m, I mean, at t hi s t i me, he was ol der , t hi s was year s af t er i t happened. I asked hi m, I s ai d, ‘ Look, ’ I s ai d, ‘ why you hat e t he man?” He sai d, ‘ Cause my momma wr ot e a not e. ’ Sai d, ‘ He r ead t he not e, f ol ded i t up, put i t i n hi s pocket , got hi s pocket kni f e out and got a gr apevi ne, and went t o beat i ng me. ’ Sai d, ‘ I ’ l l never f or get t hat as l ong as I l i ve. ’ So I j us t t ol d hi m, I s ai d, ‘ J i mmi e, ’ I s ai d, ‘ You know what ?’ I s ai d, ‘ That woul d have never happened t o you i f you had of been not so cor r upt i ve, mi nd your momma, and know how t o r ead. ’ He l ooked at me and sai d, ‘ Wel l , I don’ t under s t and what you’ r e t al ki ng about . ’ I s ai d, ‘ The r eason t hat man whi pped you, you needed t o be chas t i s ed and your mot her wasn’ t capabl e of doi ng i t . And he, bei ng t he ol des t i n t he communi t y, t hat was hi s r espons i bi l i t y: you know, t o do as your momma asked hi m t o do. ’ I s ai d, ‘ Now, i f you had of known how t o r ead or had some sense, t he onl y t hi ng you’ d have t o do i s pul l t he not e out and r ead i t and never gi ve i t t o hi m. So he t ol d me, he sai d, ‘ You know what ? That ol d man, i f he was l i vi ng, I t el l you t hat i f he was l i vi ng, I ’ d go and apol ogi ze t o hi m f or hat i ng hi m f or so l ong. ’ So t hen he di dn’ t want t o bel i eve t hat t hi s i s what r eal l y happened, but t hi s was t he same i f you woul d go t o chur ch and you mess up i n chur ch, you got a whi ppi ng i n chur ch by t he head deacon. Then when you got home, you got anot her whi ppi ng. You bet t er be gl ad t hat your gr anddaddy di dn’ t s ee you bef or e your daddy di d. I f you went t o your gr anddaddy and t hen your daddy, you got t hr ee whi ppi ngs f or one cr i me. That ’ s j us t t he way we wer e. Ever ybody had—t he ol der peopl e had aut hor i t y t o chas t i s e you i f you was wr ong. Now a l ot of t i mes you’ d say r i ght now, i f t hat happened t hey’ d say chi l d abuse. But back t hen, and i t r eal l y hel ped. I used t o have t he devi l ment i n me t oo. I had an exper i ence wi t h 155 me {t hrowi ng rocks at hi s grandma’ s chi ckens . He t hought he was prot ect ed when he ran t o hi s mot her , but hi s mom l et hi s grandmot her whi p hi m}. [ 39: 35] “ They {el der s}} j us t l ooked out f or ever ybody ar ound her e, and i t dawns on you af t er a per i od of t i me t hat t he ol der gener at i on was due r espect . And t he ol der men t ook car e of t he communi t y whet her t hey was ki n t o t hem or not . And t hi s i s some of t he t hi ngs I t r i ed t o pas s on t o, t o ki ds t hat ’ s under me, peopl e t hat ’ s under me, l i ke my chi l dr en. Ri ght now I ’ m pass i ng on t o my gr andki ds . But t hi s pl ace t o me i s one of t he mos t bl es sed pl aces I t hi nk on t hi s ear t h, t o me. That ’ s how I f eel about i t . But somet i mes I ’ ve had i t t o be cal l ed boondocks , s t i cks , or somet hi ng l i ke t hat , but I guar ant ee you t hat t hose cr i t i ci ze got t he same r espect t hat t hose who di dn’ t cr i t i ci ze. But I don’ t t hi nk I ’ ve ever hear d anyone compl ai n about Wake For es t , i t s el f , as a whol e, ot her t han bei ng i n t he s t i cks , so f ar out or somet hi ng l i ke t hat . ” [ 47: 40] He nr y Eave s : “ When, I guess when I was up t o, I was pr obabl y 10, 12 year s ol d, one whi t e per son l i ved her e. Now i t ’ s about hal f and hal f . That i s a change r i ght t her e. ” [ 48: 28] Mor gan Cai n: “ How i s t hat changi ng t he communi t y, havi ng mor e whi t e peopl e i n her e?” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l , change i n t he communi t y wi t h mor e whi t e peopl e her e i s , t hey’ r e hel pf ul but t hey don’ t get i nvol ved l i ke t he Bl acks her e. Al t hough, I woul d t hi nk t hat t hey woul d. Because t hat ’ s j us t , you know, f r om what I know of t hem, t hat ’ s j us t t he way I per cei ve t hem bei ng. They’ r e ni ce, ni ce peopl e. ” [ 50: 40] He nr y Eave s : “ Ther e has never been no t ens i on her e. Because, I t el l you why: when I was gr owi ng up her e, onl y whi t e f ami l y t hat l i ved her e l i ved back beyond her e. And t hey wer e sor t of i sol at ed, but t hey had t o use t he f aci l i t i es of comi ng t hr ough t he communi t y. And t her e was no t ens i on. Al r i ght , down i n t he communi t y of Long Shop, you’ r e f ami l i ar wi t h t hat r i ght ? Ther e was one bl ack f ami l y l i vi ng down t her e. And t hey never had no t ens i on. ” [ 52: 36] He nr y Eave s : “ The coal mi ne di d t he mos t t o wi pe out pr ej udi ce. I ai n’ t goi ng t o s ay i t never exi s t cause coal mi ni ng was goi ng on when I was bor n. I ’ ve never wi t nes sed no pr ej udi ce. Al l t he pr ej udi ce I wi t nes sed was out s i de t he home, out s i de Wake For es t . But I never wi t nes sed i t . ” 156 Mor gan Cai n: “ But t her e wer e coal mi nes ever ywher e t hough, you know do you t hi nk t her e was anyt hi ng el se t hat was speci al about t hi s ar ea or Wake For es t i n par t i cul ar t hat made t he r el at i onshi ps so—” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l , t he peopl e i n gener al . I woul d say t hat we’ ve al ways had t hi s l ovi ng, ki ndness , and bei ng peacef ul . And t hen anot her t hi ng t oo, I t hi nk what happened was t hat bef or e t he coal mi ne, i t was pr obabl y doi ng, mani f es t f r om s l aver y—wor ki ng on pl ant at i on, by t he Bl acks havi ng whi t e s l ave owner s . Then, and t he t el l i ng par t about t hi s i s t hat ver y, ver y f ew Bl acks l ef t t hi s vi ci ni t y t hat was , t hat t he s l ave owner s gave t he l and t o. I mean, our ki ds di d, my ki ds di d and ai n’ t never come back. I mean, t hey come back t o vi s i t , but t hey don’ t t o l i ve her e. But I don’ t t hi nk t hat had not hi ng t o do wi t h t he nei ghbor hood i t s el f . I j us t t hi nk, wel l my per sonal f eel i ng, my ki ds want ed t o l eave because t hey j us t want ed t o get away f r om Mom and Dad. ” [ 1: 04: 02] Mor gan Cai n: “ But you’ r e not wor r i ed about Wake For es t ever not bei ng any mor e of t he l ocal s and t he same f ami l i es t hat have l i ved her e f or gener at i ons?” He nr y Eave s : “ No, no, t hat ’ s l eavi ng. That i s act ual l y gone. I can’ t t hi nk, mat t er of f act i t ai n’ t one ki d t hat was out of t he gener at i on I was , t hat ’ s l i vi ng her e. Not one. Mor gan Cai n: “ So you t hi nk t hat event ual l y—you know, even t hough t her e’ s a communi t y her e—I t won’ t be any of t he same peopl e t hat f ounded i t {or i gi nal descendant s}. He nr y Eave s : “ No, no, no, i t ’ s ver y—wel l you t ake r i ght now, I ’ m 68 year s ol d and I ai n’ t no spr i ng chi cken and I ’ m not t he ol des t one. But t her e i s—I woul d say, I woul d pr obabl y say t her e’ s l es s t han 20 peopl e l i vi ng her e now t hat ’ s younger t han me. And al l of t hei r ki ds ar e gone, and I ’ m t r yi ng t o t hi nk—I don’ t t hi nk t her e’ s one ki d her e t hat ’ s out of t hat gener at i on out of t he 20 t hat ’ s l ef t t hat I know of . ” [ 1: 05: 18] Mor gan Cai n: “ See, I know t hat t he hi s t or y of Wake For es t i s r eal l y i mpor t ant t o you and your wi f e. Ar e you wor r i ed t hat once your gener at i on l eaves , t hat no one wi l l know t he Wake For es t hi s t or y?” He nr y Eave s : “ No, I ’ m not wor r i ed about i t , and you know why I ’ m not wor r i ed about i t ? Peopl e l i ke you, t hat t akes an i nt er es t i n i t and document s i t . ” [ 1: 09: 40] 157 He nr y Eave s : “ I woul d say bas i cal l y t he upbr i ngi ng of t he pl ant at i ons i t s el f , and t he coal mi ne i t s el f , I t hi nk t hat t hose t wo f act or s i s t he mai n det er mi nat i on of how peopl e i n Wake For es t ar e. I woul d say i f you was a s l ave, t her e was cer t ai n r ul es you had t o go by. And t hat was di sci pl i ne. Wor ki ng i n t he coal mi nes was f r i endshi p, l ovi ng and peace. Oh, I t hi nk t hose ar e t wo mai n f act or s . And t hen l i ke I s ai d al so, ever ybody chi ppi ng i n, doi ng t he pr oper t hi ngs . And mi ght not have been r i ght , but i t was t he pr oper t hi ngs t o make t hi s pl ace exi s t . Now, t her e’ s a l ot of t hi ngs t hat pr obabl y went on t hat we had pr obl ems wi t h t hat was over come, you know. Peopl e sneaki ng ar ound wi t h each ot her ’ s spouse and s t uf f l i ke t hat . I guess t hat happens al l over t he wor l d. But , but you know we sur vi ve t hat and ever yt hi ng. And bas i cal l y i t ’ s a r eal good pl ace t o l i ve. But I can see i t changi ng because of one t hi ng—wel l t wo t hi ngs : t he economy and l and i s sues . No wher e i n Bl acksbur g t o go. You can’ t af f or d i t . No wher e i n Bl acksbur g t o go. ” [ 1: 19: 50] He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l act ual l y, f r om what I under s t and t her e was a gr oup of s l aves t hat wor ked t her e on t he pl ant at i on t hat Mr s . Cowan gave t he l and t o. But some of t hem, i t was about , I don’ t know how many f ami l i es i t was but i t was cer t ai n f ami l i es . Not al l t he s l aves now, i t was cer t ai n f ami l i es t hat she gave l and. Li ke I can j us t s ay t hat t hi s i s Eaves f ami l y, over t her e i s Jones f ami l y, over t her e i s t he Mi l t on f ami l y, her e t he Johnsons , t hi s her e i s so and so. ” {Henry at t empt s t o show where f ami l y l and pl ot s were l ocat ed by poi nt i ng and us i ng hi s home as a r ef erence poi nt }. Mor gan Cai n: “ And wer e t hey—t hey wer e gi ven t hose pr oper t i es?” He nr y Eave s : “ They wer e gi ven t hose pr oper t i es , yeah. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d—wer e t hey gi ven, um—di d t hey have deeds wi t h t hem t oo?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, t hey had deeds wi t h t hem t oo. I got t he or i gi nal deed t o t he Eaves pr oper t y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Gi ven by Cowan?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, i t was gi ven t o my gr andmot her ’ s br ot her . Hi s l as t name was Rol l i ns . ” [ 1: 22: 08] 158 Mor gan Cai n: “ Ther e was a chur ch t her e bef or e t he l and was act ual l y l egal l y deeded over r i ght ?” {Ref er r i ng t o t he Bapt i s t Church}. He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah. No, t hi s , t el l you what : l aw wi l l t el l . I ’ l l get t he deed f or you. Cause I got t he deed t o t he chur ch her e somewher e. ” [ 1: 24: 28] Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l wi l l you t el l me a l i t t l e bi t mor e about t he Bapt i s t Chur ch bef or e I l eave?” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l , t he Bapt i s t Chur ch—” Mor gan Cai n: “ That ’ s wher e you at t ended as a boy and such r i ght ?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, I at t ended as a boy: ver y young age. But uh, l et s s ee, what I ’ m t r yi ng t o—how I ’ m t r yi ng t o f i gur e t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. The Bapt i s t Chur ch, wel l of cour se you know t her e was t wo chur ches i n Wake For es t : The Bapt i s t Chur ch and t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. So f r om what I under s t and and what I was t ol d t hat amongs t t he f ami l i es her e i n Wake For es t at t he ear l y—my ear l y age, i s t hat t her e was sor t of l i ke spl i t . Some went t o t he Bapt i s t , some went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. Ot her t han t he hi s t or y I know on t hi s chur ch, r ead on t hi s chur ch t hat , accor di ng t o t he cor ner s t one when t he chur ch was bui l t , who bui l t i t , and I got a deed of t he l and, of wher e t he chur ch s i t s . And I got a copy of t he sur vey of t he chur ch and l and. Now t hat i s some r esear ch t hat I ’ ve f ound out bas i cal l y t hr ough t he cour t . Because once you, you know, have l and and sur veyed, t hey got t o f i nd out wher e i t come f r om. So t hi s i s somet hi ng I got al ong wi t h t he sur vey cause I had t he chur ch l and sur veyed cause I was pl anni ng on, wel l we wer e pl anni ng on enl ar gi ng t he chur ch. And t hen I went wi t h t he, went t o chur ch t her e al l dur i ng my yout h year s , my t eenage year s . Then af t er I became 17, I l ef t ; l ef t t hi s ar ea and I moved t o Nor t her n Vi r gi ni a. And of cour se by movi ng up t her e, I l ef t t he chur ch t oo, you know, her e. Al r i ght , and dur i ng t hat t i me af t er , af t er I moved t o Nor t her n Vi r gi ni a, t he chur ch, t o me, was up and down l i ke an el evat or . Di f f er ent f ami l i es , di f f er ent peopl e went t o chur ch. Di f f er ent peopl e di ed of f t hat wer e ver y pr omi nent i n t he chur ch l i ke Mr . Banni s t er , Fr ank Banni s t er . He di ed, hi m and hi s wi f e. And my uncl e, Hender son Jones ; he was , he was a bi g deacon i n chur ch. And some mor e peopl e. And I wasn’ t i n t o t he chur ch at al l dur i ng t he t i me af t er I was 17 unt i l I guess about 6 year s ago—wel l , about 5 year s ago when I came back her e. At t hat t i me, t he chur ch was cl osed. They had, had a mi ni s t er her e. Mat t er of f act , I di dn’ t know t he mi ni s t er , I never went t o chur ch, knew hi m or not hi ng. But anyway, he was t he mi ni s t er and t he chur ch cl osed. 159 Ther e was a mi ni s t er when I moved back her e. But I di dn’ t go back t o t hat chur ch cause i t was i n t hat s t at e. So I went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. So t hen, i t went l i ke t hat unt i l f i nal l y t hi s mi ni s t er had so much, so many pr obl ems wi t h hi m and hi s wi f e and di f f er ent t hi ngs . And so he j us t l ef t . He j us t gave i t up, and I guess j us t went on about hi s bus i nes s . So t hen, Hi awat ha came her e l ooki ng f or some l and t o bui l d hi m a house. So, and i n t he meant i me, bef or e he come her e l ooki ng f or some l and, my wi f e was goi ng by t hat chur ch ever yday. And, and she was r ai sed up i n a Bapt i s t chur ch as wel l as I was . And she i s mor e i nt o chur ch, mor e i nt o chur ch val ue—r el i gi ous val ue t han I am. But anyway, she, i t was her l i f el ong t hi ng af t er movi ng t o Wake For es t . Because when she moved t o Wake For es t , she, she s t ar t ed out i n t hat chur ch af t er we got mar r i ed. And t hen t he chur ch j us t s t ar t ed goi ng downhi l l and she went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. And t hen I went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. So now when we come back her e, she was al ways t al ki ng about t he chur ch goi ng down cause i t was j us t s i t t i ng t her e. Nobody had been i n t he chur ch f or somet hi ng l i ke 3 or 4 year s . So, one day, she had t al ked t o somebody about —she had t al ked t o Hi awat ha. She had adver t i s ed about some l and. So, anyway Hi awat ha came by her e t o t al k t o me about some l and and I uh, I t al ked t o hi m about i t . I t ol d hi m—when my wi f e come home I t ol d her , I s ai d, ‘ Now, a guy came by her e t el l s me he’ s a pas t or . I don’ t know what chur ch, I don’ t even know wher e he’ s f r om. We di dn’ t t al k t hat l ong and we di dn’ t get t hat per sonal . ’ But I , I s ai d, ‘ But I t hi nk he’ s a good man, a r el i gi ous man, and ever yt hi ng. ’ So t hen af t er I t al ked t o hi m, sol d hi m some l and over her e—wel l , I hadn’ t sol d hi m t he l and t hen, but I was t r yi ng t o, encour agi ng. But anyhow, she get s t o t al ki ng t o hi m and he’ s t el l i ng her t hat he was , he was l ooki ng f or a chur ch. So, and t hen t hi s f i t r i ght i nt o her dr eam of , of openi ng t hat chur ch. She was t r yi ng t o f i gur e out a way t o open up t he chur ch on her own. So anyway, he t ol d her he was l ooki ng f or a chur ch and she sai d, ‘ Now i f you want a chur ch, I got a per f ect chur ch f or you. ’ And he, she t ol d hi m wher e i t was . And he come back, and he l ooked at t he chur ch. Weed gr as s was t hi s hi gh al l ar ound i t . And she was so j us t di sappoi nt ed by t he peopl e not keepi ng t he chur ch up, j us t l et t i ng i t go down. So anyway, she t ol d hi m. So he went out and he s t ar t ed cut t i ng gr as s ar ound t hat chur ch wi t h a weed- eat er . Ever yday t hat you seen hi m; nobody knew t hi s man. Nobody seen hi m. The onl y per son t hat had seen hi m was me and I had t al ked t o hi m. And we di dn’ t t al k about t he chur ch. But anyway, ever ybody was seei ng hi m. One per son came by her e and asked me—sai d t hey saw a s t r ange man at t he chur ch, cut t i ng gr as s . I s ai d, ‘ Wel l , what di d he have on?’ Can’ t f i gur e out why he wear s t hem r ed cover al l s as hot as i t was . He had r ed cover al l s t he same col or as your sweat er . 160 So anyway, I ’ d went by t her e a coupl e of t i me. I s een hi m, I mean, he was wor ki ng f r om ni ne- t en o’ cl ock t o dusk, unt i l i t got dar k. And he’ d have al l t hat gr as s ar ound t hat chur ch, r ound t he bank, got i t al l cut . And t he mot her of —t hat used t o be t he mot her of t he Bapt i s t chur ch, she dead now, name was Mr s . Br own. She went out t her e and cal l ed hi m on t he spot . Asked hi m, what was he doi ng cut t i ng gr as s at her chur ch. Wel l i n t he meant i me, her , her pas t or wasn’ t , I mean her pas t or —i n t he meant i me t he chur ch was shut and she had moved her member shi p t o Lynchbur g t o be down wi t h her s i s t er . So anyway, he t ol d her t hat he di dn’ t t hi nk t hat God’ s house shoul d l ook t hat way. So t hen my wi f e, she came i n. She saw hi m t her e and s t opped and t al ked. So she t ol d hi m, s ai d, ‘ I ’ m goi ng t o t el l you somet hi ng, i f you want a chur ch, I s ee i f I can get you t hi s chur ch. Cause I want you t o get i n f or my own sel f . ’ So anyway, my wi f e knew Deacon Br own. So she t ol d Deacon Br own about hi m. He was t he onl y one her e t hat was l i vi ng her e t hat was a member . So she ques t i oned hi m about i t . So he t ol d her , s ai d, “ Wel l , I ’ m, I ’ m, I ’ m i nt o t hi s and t hat . So um, I ’ ve been payi ng t he l i ght bi l l , I ’ ve been doi ng t hi s her e what ever upkeep i t was . ’ I ’ l l uh, s ai d, ‘ But I can’ t handl e i t . ’ He sai d, ‘ I ’ m a pol i ce chi ef and I ’ m a f ar mer . ’ So anyhow, she sai d, ‘ I got a man f or you. ’ So anyway, t hat ’ s—Hi awat ha was l i vi ng i n Chr i s t i ansbur g. So she went out one Sat ur day mor ni ng. She come i n, and she sai d, ‘ I s Hi awat ha out t her e? I s t hat man out t her e at t he chur ch?’ I s ai d, ‘ Yeah, he’ s out t her e at t he chur ch. ’ She get s on t he phone, t o cal l Deacon Br own on t he phone, s ai d, ‘ That man sai d he’ s i nt er es t ed i n t he chur ch. He’ s out t her e cut t i ng gr as s now. Hi m and Deacon Br own got t oget her . Deacon Br own t ook hi m al l t hr ough t he chur ch, and t ol d hi m, ‘ I f you want t he chur ch i t ’ s your s , ’ And gave hi m t he keys . He sai d, ‘ I ai n’ t got t i me t o f ool wi t h i t ’ s ai d, ‘ I got t oo much wor k on my hands bei ng pol i ce chi ef and t r yi ng t o keep up wi t h my f ar m wor k. ’ So Hi awat ha dr ove f r om t he chur ch and come over her e. And he was , wal ked t her e i n t he l i vi ng r oom and he sai d, ‘ Man, ’ he had a smi l e on hi s f ace and I hadn’ t s een Hi awat ha I guess f or l i ke t wo mont hs . I s ai d, ‘ What made you so happy t hi s mor ni ng? Thi s mor ni ng you got t hat smi l e on. ’ He sai d, ‘ Man, you j us t don’ t bel i eve i t . A man gave me a chur ch. ’ I s ai d, ‘ What you t al ki ng about ?’ He sai d, ‘ You know Pol i ce Chi ef Br own?’ I s ai d, ‘ Yeah, I know hi m, why?’ He sai d, ‘ Wel l he gave me t he keys t o t hi s chur ch and do what I want t o do wi t h i t , s ai d he di dn’ t have t i me t o f ool wi t h i t . ’ So I s ai d, ‘ Ok. ’ So anyway, he s t ar t ed wor ki ng on t he chur ch. And I was s t i l l goi ng t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. And I had, was begi nni ng, I had some bad vi bes about t he Hol i nes s chur ch at t hat t i me. So, I don’ t know somet hi ng j us t , 161 j us t kept l eadi ng me and l eadi ng me, l eadi ng me. Seei ng, I was seei ng hi m at wor k ever yday and I got t o know hi m and I s ai d, ‘ Wel l , t hat man needs some hel p. ’ So I j us t , I went t o t he chur ch. I guess i t was j us t , I don’ t know, t he Lor d or somebody was t el l i ng me, ‘ Jus t go and hel p hi m. ’ So I r es i gned t he Hol i nes s Chur ch and I went t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. And t hey accept ed me and t hen we s t ar t ed f or mul at i ng a boar d, a wor ki ng boar d. The chur ch needed an awf ul l ot of wor k. Then I got t o wher e I knew Deacon Br own pr et t y wel l . I got what book wor k we needed of f of hi m: how much money we had i n t he chur ch, who’ d been payi ng t he l i ght bi l l , and ever yt hi ng and al l . So we s t ar t ed f r om t her e, and we s t ar t ed wi t h el even hundr ed and t en dol l ar s . That ’ s what was i n t her e when he, he gave t he chur ch t o Hi awat ha. [ 1: 37: 35] Al r i ght t he f i r s t t hi ng we had t o do was i t had an out dat ed f ur nace i n t her e t hat I j us t l ooked at my own sel f and sai d, ‘ I f we keep us i ng t hi s t hi ng, t he chur ch goi ng t o bur n down. ’ So I had a new f ur nace put i n, a new oi l f ur nace. Thi s one had an ol d coal f ur nace i n i t , had a new oi l f ur nace put i t . And t hen f r om one t hi ng j us t updat ed f r om t hen on. And i t j us t kept get t i ng bi gger and bi gger . And t he l onger i t t ook, t he mor e i nvol ved I got i n chur ch. And s i nce t hen, I got out put a new r oof on t he chur ch, new gut t er , had t he chur ch r epai nt ed, and a l ot of ot her t hi ngs we done. And t hen some—st ar t ed get t i ng member s . Some of t he ol d member s came back. And t hen we s t ar t ed t aki ng on new member s . And uh, t he l as t t hi ng I di d was r emodel t he ki t chen and di nni ng r oom. I don’ t know i f you been i n t her e and seen i t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l , I s aw what you wer e get t i ng r eady t o wor k on. You t ol d me what you wer e goi ng t o change, but i t ’ s been s i nce t hen t hat I ’ ve been. And I woul dn’ t mi nd goi ng out t o t he chur ch, maybe some t i me when I come t o pi ck up t he deed, you can maybe gi ve me a t our of t he chur ch. Ki nd of go t hr ough, and I ’ l l have my r ecor der and you can t el l me about some t hi ngs . ” He nr y Eave s : “ Ok, yeah. When I r edi d t he chur ch, t he whol e downs t ai r s , I j us t compl et el y r emodel ed. I don’ t know i f you saw i t —I got some pi ct ur es r ound her e of how i t used t o l ook. Had a f ew wat er l eaks i n t her e. I upgr aded t he wat er s er vi ce i n t her e. And t he heat i ng ser vi ce—I mean t he heat i ng uni t , I upgr aded t hat . And I had a new f ur nace i n t her e. But al l t he heat duct s , i t was l os i ng your heat by t he way i t was made. ” [ 1: 39: 45] He nr y Eave s : “ Then, have you seen i t s i nce t he wi f e put t he, what i s i t ? She put a showcase down t her e of t he chur ch. ” 162 Mor gan Cai n: “ I ’ ve seen t hat . ” He nr y Eave s : “ You’ ve seen t hat . Wel l - ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Ther e wasn’ t anyt hi ng i n t her e t hough when I s aw i t . ” He nr y Eave s : “ Oh, but i t ’ s a l ot of ar t i f act s she got i n t her e now. She put ol d Bi bl es , and s t uf f i n i t . And di f f er ent par t s . And I f ound some ol d, I know good and wel l t hey was communi on bot t l es . You know, t her e was gr ape wi ne bot t l es . I f ound some of t hem, br ought t hem home, cl eaned um up. Some ol d t hi ngs , you know. Cause act ual l y what happened, when you come up i n f r ont of t he chur ch, when you come up i n t he chur ch i t s el f under neat h t he f l oor was a coal bi n. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Ah, I r emember you t el l i ng me t hat . I s t hat wher e you f ound t hose hymnal s?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, t hat ’ s wher e al l t hat s t uf f was—and t hen s i nce Mr . Banni s t er ’ s son, Fr ank Banni s t er ’ s son, donat ed a whol e, he donat ed s i x hundr ed dol l ar s wor t h of hymnal s . Br and new hymnal s , you know, cause we was r eadi ng out of t wo: Red Book and Gr een Book. So we got al l new hymn books . And we do, we do a l ot of updat i ng as we can. I had t o, I changed t he bat hr oom ar ound wher e i t was wheel chai r acces s i bl e, cause we had a pas t or come her e f or s er vi ce and she was i n a wheel chai r . And she coul dn’ t even get her wheel chai r t hr ough t he door s . So I enl ar ged t he door s i n t he bat hr oom wher e i t t hat way you coul d go i n. And now i t ’ s , you know, cause whoever put t he bat hr oom i n t her e j us t put enough, put t wo f oot door s i n t her e. I t t akes a bi gger door f or a wheel chai r coul d go i n t her e. And di f f er ent t hi ngs l i ke t hat . Ri ght now I got some car pet out t her e i n t he gar age I ’ m goi ng t o put down—j us t as soon as i t get war m enough—on t he out s i de. And t hat ’ s bas i cal l y f or appear ance. ” [ 1: 42: 08] He nr y Eave s : “ But our chur ch, i t gr ew qui t e a bi t , we have pr ayer meet i ng on Wednesday ni ght . Then we have Sunday School on Sunday and ser vi ce on Sunday. And we meet f or bus i nes s meet i ng once a mont h: t hi r d Sunday of t he mont h. We’ ve had a f ew weddi ngs i n t he chur ch—hadn’ t had any f uner al s t hank t he Lor d. But , t he—member shi p was gr owi ng. But I don’ t know, al l of a sudden somet hi ng or anot her happened wher e t he member shi p ai n’ t gr owi ng l i ke i t used t o. Seems l i ke r i ght now i t ’ s at a s t and s t i l l . Ever y now and t hen somebody you know, come i n. And anot her t hi ng t oo, what has been my goal —and my downf al l —and whi ch has s t opped: when I was a ki d gr owi ng up her e i n t hi s nei ghbor hood i t 163 was pr obabl y somet hi ng l i ke maybe 250 r es i dent s . And I woul d say hal f of t hem wer e ki ds . And t hat has been my l i f el ong dr eam i s j us t t r y t o get t hi s communi t y back t he way we woul d have a l ot of ki ds . I ’ ve di d ever yt hi ng I coul d, l i ke cer t ai n peopl e i n t he r eal es t at e bus i nes s and ever yt hi ng we’ r e i n, I encour age my own sel f and my wi f e i s t o make a pl ace f or ki ds . Cause I know f or —even t hough I can see my ki ds of f and gone, I don’ t know i f my gr andki ds i s comi ng but , but as l ong as t her e’ s ki ds , t hen you’ r e communi t y can pr osper . But once your ki ds s t op, you know, once t her e ar e no mor e ki ds , i t ’ s j us t dead. So what I was t r yi ng t o do was see how many peopl e I coul d get her e, wi t h ki ds . And l i ke r i ght now, l i ke I t ol d you ear l i er , i t ’ s mor e ki ds her e now t han t her e was pr obabl y t en year s ago. But t hese ki ds ar e r el ocat ed. They ar e ki ds t hat not f r om t he peopl e t hat was or i gi nal l y her e. Ther e’ s one f ami l y over t her e, women’ s got f i ve ki ds {uncl ear} but I got one, t hr ee, no, t hr ee, f our , f i ve, s i x, s even, t her e’ s pr obabl y about 16- 17 now. But l i ke I s ai d, t hey ar e not none of t he or i gi nal f ami l i es t hat I knew. They al l f r om f ami l i es f r om ot her pl aces . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l of t he or i gi nal f ami l i es , l i ke when you wer e gr owi ng up, was chur ch and r el i gi on r eal l y i mpor t ant i n t hi s ar ea?” He nr y Eave s : “ Ver y i mpor t ant . Bel i eve i t or not , i n my f ami l y, my mot her never t ook me t o chur ch but one day i n her l i f e, I went t o chur ch wi t h my mot her . My mot her j us t wasn’ t a—she bel i eved i n i t , she was r ai sed up i n t he chur ch f ami l y cause her f at her and her mot her and her br ot her was ver y wel l i nt o t he chur ch. But my mot her never went t o chur ch. My mot her went t o chur ch wi t h me one t i me bef or e she pas sed away. And she, she was s t ayi ng i n a nur s i ng home f or t hi r t een year s . And t he year bef or e she di ed was Mot her ’ s Day and I went t o t he nur s i ng home and I , I went t o t he nur s i ng home and I car r i ed her t o chur ch s i mpl y because I j us t f el t i n my hear t t hat she’ d never s ee anot her Mot her ’ s Day. And she di dn’ t . So, But chur ch i n t hi s communi t y, ever ybody was i n chur ch on Sunday. I ’ m t al ki ng about t he chur ch was al l —t hi s was al l t he f ami l i es . But I guess , t o t el l you t he chur ch, t hat t he chur ch was al l t he ol der gener at i on of Bl acks had t o hol d on t o. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ What do you mean by t hat ?” He nr y Eave s : “ Wel l , t hat , f eel l i ke t hi s way; Bei ng bl ack I can expl ai n t o you—t el l you i n a way. I f you l ook back t hr ough s l aver y t i mes and you knew t he hi s t or y of s l aver y, t he chur ch was al ways t he meet i ng pl ace. The pas t or of t hat chur ch, f or t he s l aves , was al ways t he communi t y l eader , even back dur i ng t he. days when—And t hen t he bl acks di dn’ t have f r eedom 164 of speech and t hey di dn’ t have f r eedom t o vot e. Thei r r i ght s wer e vi ol at ed. And t hey used t o have—I hear d a s ayi ng l at er on i n l i f e one t i me t hat when t hi ngs wer e goi ng t ough, t he di f f er ence bet ween a whi t e man and a bl ack man i s a bl ack man woul d al ways r un t o t he chur ch. And t he whi t e man was al ways r unni ng t o t he ment al i ns t i t ut i ons , pl ay cr azy. And t hen t oo, I ’ ve, I ’ ve, I ’ ve seen i t happen. I ’ ve, I ’ ve, I ’ ve r eal l y s een i t happen. You t ake when t hi ngs go t o get t i ng bad, t hey’ l l t el l you, s ay, ‘ Go pr ay f or i t . ’ Or t he pas t or come by t he house, want t o pr ay wi t h you and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s her e. Whi t e man get s i ck or somet hi ng, f i r s t t hi ng he want t o do i s go t o t he doct or or ment al i ns t i t ut i ons . I f i t , i f t he doct or can’ t f i nd not hi ng phys i cal l y wr ong wi t h hi m, i t ’ s got t o be i n hi s mi nd. So now he goes t o t he ment al i ns t i t ut i on and he mi ght need pr ayer as wel l as he do t hat . But t hen anot her t hi ng t oo, t he bl acks di dn’ t have t he money, t he f unds t o go t o t he expens i ve doct or . But chur ch t o t he bl acks has al ways been out s t andi ng poi nt . Now when you get t o di vi di ng t he bl ack r ace, I ’ d s ay: One, Two, Thr ee: r i ch bei ng One, Thr ee bei ng poor , and Two i s get t i ng by, j us t bei ng ok. Al r i ght , mos t l i kel y t he pr eacher wi l l pr obabl y be t he r i ches t man i n t he communi t y, he’ s t he pr eacher . So t hen t he ol der gener at i on, when t hey s t ar t ed, t hey’ d get t o t he poi nt wher e you coul d go get s chool i ng, get educat i on. And t hey pr eached t hat : ‘ Get you educat i on. Get s chool i ng, and get your educat i on. You’ r e goi ng t o do wel l . You’ r e goi ng t o pr osper . You’ r e goi ng t o have money. You can get you a good j ob. ’ And t hi s had been one of t he dr awbacks ever s i nce s l aver y per s i s t ed. So I act ual l y f el t t hat even r i ght t oday, t hi s i s how, i f you want t o hol d back a bunch of peopl e, make um dumb and t hey can’ t l ear n. But t he same t hi ng about i t , s ee at one t i me t hey say, ‘ Wel l t he bl acks don’ t have no educat i on. ’ The s l ave owner s di dn’ t want t hem t o have educat i on. So what t hey di d t hey di dn’ t gi ve um no school i ng. Now I t hi nk t her e was a f ew peopl e t her e t hat j us t good peopl e and I ’ m t al ki ng about whi t e peopl e. And bel i eve or not t hey wer e 95% women. Ther e wer en’ t ver y many of t he t hem men, because t he s l ave owner , he wasn’ t pos i t i ve enough about t eachi ng a s l ave how t o r ead and wr i t e when he coul dn’ t r ead hi s own sel f . Yeah, you see what I ’ m sayi ng. So now i t di dn’ t benef i t hi m at al l . But maybe hi s wi f e, hi s mot her , or hi s gr andmot her , or somebody, maybe t hey l ooked at i t as t hat way. I don’ t know. But t hey, t he bl acks have al ways been t aught as f ar as I know t hat t her e was t hr ee di f f er ent t r ades : pr eacher , doct or , or l awyer . Lawyer had t o be t he mos t educat ed because I guess he had t o do t he mos t , you know, r eadi ng. Doct or , wel l don’ t mat t er wher e I put hi m, wel l he had t o be educat ed t oo. Nowadays , you do. ” [ 1: 52: 05] 165 He nr y Eave s : “ But t hey f i gur e, l i ke my gr andmot her , she was a mi dwi f e and t hey t el l me t hat she was t he, she bi r t hed pr obabl y t wo- t hi r ds of t he popul at i on: bl ack and whi t e. Cause t hey di dn’ t have no doct or s . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ What ’ s was her name?” He nr y Eave s : “ Her name was Amy Eaves . But she was a mi dwi f e ar ound her e. And she was a mi dwi f e ar ound her e l i ke f or bl ack and whi t e. And when, my mot her t ol d me t hat when she was bor n, t her e was one doct or i n Bl acksbur g, j us t one. And hi s name was Huf f man. And he was admi ni s t er i ng her , you know, when i t got t i me f or l abor . {He s t ayed t he ni ght }. [ 1: 55: 00] {Teachers i n Wake Fores t }. [ 1: 56: 45] He nr y Eave s : “ Mos t t i me, mos t t i me my Sunday School t eacher s wer e ei t her t hey wer e mi ni s t er s or deacons i n t he chur ch. I had, my mai n Sunday School t eacher s was Fr ank Banni s t er and Hender sen Jones . Whi ch Hender sen Jones was my uncl e. Then we had peopl e her e t hat —a {uncl ear} t eacher i n t he chur ch was Mr s . J ani e Mi l t on and Mr s . El i za Banni s t er . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Woul d deacons and peopl e l i ke t hi s quot e scr i pt ur e t o you when you wer e out , s ee um i n publ i c and what not ? Li ke, was t hei r r el i gi on cl ear i n al l s t eps of t hei r l i f e?” [ 1: 57: 46] He nr y Eave s : “ Yes , ver y cl ear . I t ’ s j us t l i ke I s ai d. The chur ches was spl i t . The chur ches—you went t o one chur ch. What I ’ m t al ki ng about t he chur ches wer e spl i t , t ake my, my gr andpar ent s . Now my gr andpar ent s on my mot her ’ s s i de, bot h of t hem wer e Joneses . And bot h of t hem—one of t hem was a Bapt i s t Deacon and t he ot her one went t o t he Hol i nes s chur ch; hi s wi f e went t o t he Hol i —her name was Li zzi e Jones—she went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. Al r i ght , my—i t r ever sed i t s el f wi t h my f at her ’ s par ent s . My gr anddaddy was a Hol i nes s deacon. And my gr andmot her was a Bapt i s t member . Thi s i s why I s ay t hey wer e spl i t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d t hat cause pr obl ems?” He nr y Eave s : “ I f i t caused pr obl ems , t o t el l you t he t r ut h—i t mi ght have caused pr obl ems i n t he house. I never s ee wher e I ’ ve ever hear d my gr andpar ent s ar gue over t he t eachi ng of t hei r pr edomi nant chur ch. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ You never hear d i t ?” 166 He nr y Eave s : “ I never hear d t hem do t hi s . They mi ght have ar gued over di nner or some, somet hi ng l i ke t hat . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ What about j us t l i ke t al ki ng t o somebody, coul d you t el l by t he way t hey pr ayed or t he way t hey t al ked whet her or not t hey went t o t he Bapt i s t or t he Hol i nes s?” He nr y Eave s : “ No, no. I never —l i ke I s ai d, I went t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. So t he Bapt i s t Chur ch bas i cal l y was , was t he peopl e I was ar ound. I knew how t hey act ed. And t he peopl e at t he Hol i nes s Chur ch—and anot her t hi ng t oo: r el i gi on wasn’ t t hat open, i n open out l i ke what you was sayi ng. I t ’ s l i ke, I ’ m goi ng t o s ee you on t he s t r eet and meet a deacon on t he s t r eet f r om t he Bapt i s t chur ch or t he Hol i nes s chur ch wher e t hey woul d speak about i t . Mor gan Cai n: “ They woul dn’ t ” He nr y Eave s : “ No t hey woul dn’ t . You know t hey woul d acknowl edge each ot her and l et i t go at t hat . But you know i t mi ght be at meet i ngs over my head t hat t hey woul d t al k about i t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Yeah, I mean—I don’ t mean l i ke bet ween t he t wo chur ches . I mean l i ke i f somet hi ng bad was t o happen t o you, woul d t hey come t o you and t el l you t o pr ay about i t and such, or di d t hey j us t t al k about i s sues l i ke t hat when t hey wer e j us t i n chur ch?” He nr y Eave s : “ No, t hey woul d come t o you and t al k about i t . And t hi s coul d be ei t her one of t hem: Bapt i s t or Hol i nes s . They’ d spl i t on t hat . Then, you know, t her e was cer t ai n t i mes dur i ng t he, dur i ng t he, cer t ai n t i mes l i ke dur i ng, dur i ng t he year , s ay Chr i s t mas or somet hi ng, t hey may have a, Hol i nes s Chur ch may have a chur ch f unct i on goi ng on and t he Bapt i s t peopl e woul d go as wel l . They s t i l l even do t hat t oday. I t was j us t open t hi ngs l i ke ever y year up t her e at t hi s Hol i nes s Chur ch up her e, t hey have—t he communi t y has Thanksgi vi ng Di nner . Ever ybody par t i ci pat es : Bapt i s t and Hol i nes s . But t o t el l you t he t r ut h, r i ght now t he t wo chur ches i sn’ t spl i t as much as t hey used t o be. They ar e mor e so t oget her . But i f t her e’ s a s i ckness or deat h i n t he communi t y, t hey al l come t oget her , al l one accor d. And we r eal l y, we ar e ver y suppor t i ve of each ot her , chur ch wi se. Now j us t , I never coul d j us t s ay, ‘ Wel l , I can meet you on t he r oad and t el l whet her you Hol i nes s or Bapt i s t . ’ That has never been t he case and I ’ ve never s een i t ar ound her e l i ke t hat . But I ai n’ t s ayi ng i t di dn’ t happen. 167 And t hen anot her t hi ng t oo i s , I not i ced gr owi ng up, t he ki ds f ol l owed al ong t he f ami l y. I t ’ s j us t l i ke, wel l , I went t o t he Bapt i s t chur ch because my gr andmot her and my uncl es went t o t he Bapt i s t chur ch. Li ke I s ai d, my mot her di dn’ t go t o chur ch. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d t hat bot her you gr andma?” He nr y Eave s : “ Whi ch one?” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d i t bot her your gr andma t hat your mot her di dn’ t go?” He nr y Eave s : “ No. I t di dn’ t bot her nei t her one of t hem. See one of my gr andpar ent s was goi ng—my gr andmot her went t o t he Bapt i s t chur ch and one went t o t he Hol i nes s chur ch. So i f i t bot her ed t hem, I never knew anyt hi ng about i t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Yeah, but t hey di dn’ t ever t r y t o t al k her i nt o t o goi ng t o chur ch?” He nr y Eave s : “ They pr obabl y di d, you know, one- on- one. Then t oo, when, af t er my ki ds came al ong, my wi f e was t he l ead one. And uh, we, and t hen t oo, I j oi ned t he Hol i nes s t oo and we wer e bot h i n i t . ” [ 2: 05: 12] He nr y Eave s : “ And t hen anot her t hi ng t oo, at one t i me t hey had—one had chur ch i n t he mor ni ng and t he ot her one had chur ch i n t he af t er noon. So you had a choi ce of ei t her one you want ed. But ver y sel dom do you see someone go spendi ng al l day i n chur ch, goi ng her e t hen go her e. I f i gur e t hey f i gur e, especi al l y a young per son, t hey f i gur e t hat ’ s a l i t t l e t oo l ong. ” Mor gan Cai n: Di d you have any cer t ai n el der or cer t ai n gr oup of el der s i n t he chur ch t hat wer e r eal l y i nspi r i ng t o you when you wer e young?” He nr y Eave s : “ I had, my gr andmot her Amy, was ver y i nspi r i ng t o me. And t hen t her e was my uncl e Hender sen Jones , Fr ank Banni s t er , and j us t about al l of t he deacons t hat was i n t he Bapt i s t chur ch was ver y i nspi r i ng t o me. And I can t hi nk t he pas t or out her e gr owi ng up was ver y—hi s name was P. T. Tr avi s . He was ver y i nspi r i ng t o me. Now t he Hol i nes s chur ch, t hey had a var i et y. They was , s eems l i ke t hey was goi ng changeabl e. Anot her t hi ng, t he ones t hat was i n t he Bapt i s t chur ch was mor e l ong t er m. He s t ayed t her e, had a l onger t er m of pr eachi ng at t hat par t i cul ar chur ch. Now l i ke i n t he Hol i nes s chur ch, i n t hat chur ch body, i n t hei r bel i ef i s t hat you onl y have a t enur e f or one year . Even t oday, i t woul d 168 see t o r un f r om June f i r s t t o June f i r s t : one year . And t hen con—June f i r s t , i n t he Hol i nes s Chur ch, t hey have a convocat i on t hat t hey have a week or t wo chur ch ser vi ce. And t hat week or t wo chur ch ser vi ce, you have al l t he bus i nes s wor k t aken car e of i n t hat di s t r i ct . And one t hi ng i n t hat di s t r i ct i s t he di s t r i ct el der , he wi l l make a vi s i t t o t he chur ch. Li ke, we have Uni t ed Pent ecos t al her e, ok, t he el der —t hat pas t or j us t changed t hi s pas t June. Al r i ght , now somet i me bet ween I guess about t he l as t t wo mont hs , we’ l l s ay Apr i l or May bef or e June f i r s t , t he di s t r i ct el der wi l l come back t o t he chur ch and t he chur ch has t o vot e t o keep hi m or r el ease her . And what ever t he vot e i s , he has t o t ake i t back t o convocat i ons , and t hen t he di s t r i ct el der wi l l make a vot e on i t . And t he bi shop wi l l det er mi ne whet her t hi s man hol ds hi s t enant ur e t o be t he pas t or . And t hat i s bas i cal l y on one or t wo t hi ngs : The chur ch i sn’ t gr owi ng, or t he member shi p don’ t want hi m back. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ So why di d mi ni s t er Spencer l eave?” He nr y Eave s : “ They vot ed her out . That was why she l ef t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And now t hey have who, who i s t her e?” He nr y Eave s : “ El der Par son. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ He’ s back?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah, he’ s back. He used t o be t her e and t hey, chur ch r ul e vot ed hi m out . And t hat ’ s one r eason I l ef t t he Hol i nes s Chur ch per sonal l y. Mor gan Cai n: “ You l i ke t o maybe bui l d a r el at i onshi p wi t h one mi ni s t er f or a whi l e?” He nr y Eave s : “ Yeah. Li ke, El der Par son i s back and when El der Par son was t her e, we had a good r el at i onshi p and I wasn’ t even a member . But t hat ’ s j us t because at one t i me me and hi m wer e bot h s t r eet peopl e at t he same t i me. You know, we wer e f r i ends on t he s t r eet , and t hen when he became mi ni s t er , al t hough I wasn’ t i n t he chur ch, I kept up my f r i endshi p. Now he’ s back and I s t i l l have t hat f r i endshi p wi t h hi m, you know. {Descr i pt i on of Henry’ s r ebui l di ng of t he s t eepl e at t he Hol i nes s church}. 169 Car ol yn Spr aggi ns —Jul y 2, 2007 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: Li vi ng r oom of Mr . and Mr s . Spr aggi ns ’ home i n Wake For es t , bel ow Wake For es t Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s chur ch. Not e s : Car ol yn Spr aggi ns was bor n December 12, 1947, and r ai sed i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a. She i s t he Fi r s t Lady t o t he pas t or , Hi awat ha Spr aggi ns , and pr es i dent of t he choi r at Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch. Mr s . Spr aggi ns has f or ewar ned t he i nt er vi ewer t hat she wi l l not be as hel pf ul as her husband about answer i ng ques t i ons r el at i ng t o t he chur ch, but has agr eed al l t he s ame t o be i nt er vi ewed. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me checks i ndi cat ed] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. CS: “ Um, when we f i r s t came her e, he was a, he had j us t s t ar t ed, uh, pas t ur i ng. I mean, not pas t ur i ng, pr eachi ng; uh, bei ng or dai ned as a pr eacher . And um, we, he was back, goi ng back and f or t h f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a, because di f f er ent chur ches i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a had asked hi m t o pr each s i nce he di dn’ t have a chur ch of hi s own. And we wer e goi ng back l i ke um, I ’ m t r yi ng t o r emember how many di f f er ent chur ches he went t o i n Pr i ncet on, Wes t Vi r gi ni a. And I was wor ki ng, I was , had al r eady f ound a j ob her e. I was wor ki ng her e, and on t he weekends we woul d go down somet i mes t hat Sat ur day and spend t he ni ght or ei t her go ear l y t hat Sunday mor ni ng f or hi m t o pr each and t hen come back her e, um, ever y Sunday. And um, I enj oyed t r avel i ng, goi ng, you know, goi ng back and f or t h wi t h hi m t o chur ch l i ke t hat . But wi t h me wor ki ng, and I woul d do t hat on Sunday, I woul d have t o be r eady t o wor k on Monday. So i t was s t ar t i ng t o be t i r i ng af t er a whi l e and I ’ m t hi nki ng t o mysel f , ‘ Ok, we j us t moved her e, we don’ t know anyone her e, so I don’ t know what I ’ m goi ng t o do wi t h havi ng t o go back and f or t h l i ke t hat , wor ki ng. ’ I s ai d, ‘ We don’ t know anybody her e, so he’ s not goi ng t o get a chur ch her e i n Vi r gi ni a, so we’ r e goi ng t o be doi ng t hi s f or a whi l e. How am I goi ng t o manage t hi s?’ And you know God i s so awesome. For hi m t o get a chur ch her e i n Vi r gi ni a as qui ckl y as he di d, and he di dn’ t know anyone. That was , t o me, I j us t cons i der t hat t o be a mi r acl e. Because we had, we di d t hat f or about a year I ’ m t hi nki ng, goi ng back and f or t h l i ke t hat . 170 We had r ent ed a doubl e wi de t r ai l er i n Chr i s t i ansbur g unt i l we f ound a home, and um, i n t he meant i me, t hat ’ s when I ’ m sayi ng he met Henr y and he’ l l {“ he” i s Reverend Spraggi ns} have t o t el l you cause I don’ t r emember how he sai d he met t hem. But af t er he met t hem, um, I t hi nk Benzena ment i oned somet hi ng. He t ol d me Benzena ment i oned somet hi ng t o hi m about t hi s chur ch down her e di dn’ t have a pas t or , been cl osed f or a whi l e. And um, I don’ t know what t hey di d f r om t her e on, but next t hi ng I know, he t ol d me he had been down t her e wor ki ng i n t he yar d, cut t i ng gr as s and doi ng di f f er ent t hi ngs and t al ki ng t o di f f er ent peopl e. And next t hi ng I know, he t ol d me t hey had asked hi m t o be t he pas t or at t hi s chur ch down her e. And I s ai d, ‘ Oh my God. ’ And he sai d i t had been cl osed, you know, f or a whi l e, so we wer e goi ng t o have t o do some wor k t o get r eady t o open and we went down and we di d pai nt i ng. Li t t l e di f f er ent , l i t t l e f i x- up t hi ngs and i t j us t s l owl y came al ong. As you coul d t el l , i t had been cl osed, and hadn’ t been used f or a l ong t i me. And my, mysel f , and hi m, i t was di f f er ent peopl e, woul d go down and es sent i al l y we got i t —opened t he door s f or peopl e t o s t ar t wor shi pi ng i n. Si nce t hen, God has br ought i t f r om a mi ght y, mi ght y l ong way. So, s t ar t ed meet i ng some of t he peopl e; I met Deacon Br own, I met um, when we f i r s t s t ar t ed. I ’ m t r yi ng t o r emember some of t he peopl e. When, when we f i r s t s t ar t ed, we s t ar t ed out wi t h a l ot of young peopl e comi ng i n, a l ot of chi l dr en, but i t s eems l i ke as t he t i me has gone on, some of t hem have gone. I t ’ s down t o t he f ew t hat s t i l l be t her e somet i mes . But um, we had a l ot of young chi l dr en t hat , t hat wer e comi ng t her e. And i t was a l ady named Ti na, she used t o come wi t h, t o do some wor k, was a l ady named Vanessa, Deacon Br own, s t i l l a member of t he chur ch. I t hi nk she and Deacon Br own wer e t he onl y t wo t hat wer e s t i l l member s of —or i gi nal member s—of t he chur ch when i t was open bef or e. ” MC: “ Ok. Ar e t her e a f ew ot her s at t hi s poi nt t hat wer e?” CS: “ Jus t t he Br owns and I t hi nk Henr y i s an or i gi nal member . And we have had sever al peopl e t hat have moved away t hat wer e or i gi nal chur ch member s down t her e. ” MC: “ Ok. They’ ve moved away?” CS: “ They’ ve moved away. But when t hey come i n, t hey’ l l come i n and s t and and t al k about al l t hei r par ent s , gr andpar ent s , or what ever , br i ngi ng t hem t o chur ch t her e, how t hey woul d wal k down t her e t oget her . So, j us t di f f er ent s t or i es t hat t hey woul d t el l about when t hey wer e gr owi ng up, some of t hei r ol der peopl e t hat have di ed or what ever . ” 171 [ 5: 15] MC: “ How many member s came t he f i r s t f ew Sundays?” CS: “ The f i r s t f ew Sundays , we um, I ’ m t r yi ng t o t hi nk, or i gi nal member s t hat wer e t her e or j oi ned af t er t he door s opened?” MC: “ I mean, was t he at t endance l ow when you f i r s t opened up?” CS: “ Yeah, i t , i t was s l ow when we f i r s t s t ar t ed up. We have had sever al peopl e t o j oi n t he chur ch, but f or nowadays , I don’ t know. The wor l d, a l ot of peopl e s eem t o, t o f eel l i ke t he wor l d have mor e t o of f er t han ser vi ng God. I f al l of t he peopl e who have j oi ned s i nce we f i r s t opened t he door s , woul d r egul ar l y, r egul ar l y at t end, i t woul d be f ul l . ” MC: “ I ’ ve been t her e when i t ’ s been f ul l bef or e. ” CS: “ Yeah, he’ s bapt i zed sever al , and we’ ve had peopl e t o have come back on—t her e’ s been a l ot of chi l dr en t o j oi n. We have t o r eal i ze t hat chi l dr en {uncl ear recordi ng}. ” MC: “ What i s your t i t l e i n t he chur ch, what el s e do you do? CS: “ Wel l , um, Fi r s t Lady of t he pas t or . Um, I am, do t he um, yout h, do t he yout h mi ni s t r y, and Pr es i dent of t he Choi r . I l ove wor ki ng wi t h t he choi r and t he yout h. ” MC: “ Yeah, I bet . Ar e a l ot of t he member s of t he chur ch communi t y member s her e i n Wake For es t , or ar e t hey l i vi ng—. ” CS: “ We had qui t e a f ew her e i n t he communi t y. Some t hat wer e her e have moved ot her pl aces . Let ’ s s ee, um, Fanny Day l i ved i n Chr i s t i ansbur g, and t hen she moved t o some ar ea i n Bl acksbur g she sai d, but I don’ t know wher e i t i s . She and she’ s got t wo daught er and t hey dedi cat ed her ol des t daught er ’ s baby t o t he chur ch Sunday. That was a ni ce ser vi ce. I t was ver y, ver y movi ng. She sai d, s i nce she had her baby, i t made a bi g di f f er ence—change i n her l i f e t o make sur e t hat she r ai sed hi m knowi ng God and t hat she’ d do t he bes t as a mot her , and t hat was r eal l y t ouchi ng, you know. A chi l d, you ar e r espons i bl e f or your chi l d unt i l t hey get ol d enough t o be r espons i bl e f or t hemsel ves . And i f God i s t ouchi ng her i n t he way t o l et her know t hat t hat ’ s t he f i r s t s t ep she needs t o make, t hat , t hat ’ s gr eat . That ’ s r eal l y gr eat . She had qui t e a f ew peopl e t ear y eyed. ” [ 8: 04] 172 MC: “ Yeah I bet . ” CS: “ Yeah, i t was ver y emot i onal . ” MC: “ You sai d you had been i n t he chur ch s i nce you wer e young. Have you been a Bapt i s t your whol e l i f e? I ’ m j us t cur i ous when—” CS: “ When I was young, t he f i r s t t i me I , I , I went f or war d t o j oi n t he chur ch, I was i n el ement ar y school and t hat was i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a. We had a l i t t l e t wo r oom school house and t hey used t o have, uh, mi s s i onar i es t hat come t hr ough our ar ea, um, t o t he, t o vi s i t t he chur ches somet i mes . And we went t o chur ch f r om our cl as s r oom one, one day and t hi s l ady was pr eachi ng, she was a Met hodi s t pr eacher , and at t he t i me, I bei ng young, I di dn’ t know or under s t and t he di f f er ence i n Met hodi s t , Bapt i s t , or what ever . So, t he f i r s t t i me t hat I hear d a pr eacher pr each t hat t ouched my hear t t o t he poi nt t hat made me f eel l i ke I want ed t o be a s er vant of God, I was i n el ement ar y school . And i t was—so when I went f or t h, I went f or t h under a Met hodi s t pas t or . But as , when I became ol d enough t o j oi n t he chur ch on my own, I l i ved i n New Yor k, and I j oi ned a Bapt i s t chur ch and was bapt i zed i n a Bapt i s t chur ch. ” MC: “ Ok. So havi ng been i n a l ot of Bapt i s t chur ches , ar e t her e some char act er i s t i cs of Wake For es t Bapt i s t t hat you f eel ar e pr et t y gener i c t o t hat denomi nat i on or do you f eel l i ke t her e ar e some qual i t i es t hat you t hi nk came j us t f r om t her e?” CS: “ No, each, each chur ch, each member has some di f f er ence, but i n your hear t , wel l t oo, t hi s i s j us t me speaki ng, but i n my hear t , when you’ r e s er vi ng God, and your hear t i s wi t h God, any pl ace you go, t o me, i s some what t he same. Um, each pas t or have t hei r own char act er i s t i cs of how t hey pr each God’ s wor d or how God wor ks i n t hei r l i f e. Um, t her e, t her e i s al ways some t ype of di f f er ence, l i ke wi t h, wi t h mos t of t he ol der pr eacher s t hat I ’ ve hear d as a younger per son, t hey have t hi s um, you know, t hi s moany pr eachy t hi ng t hat mos t of t he pr eacher s di d, but t o me, my husband i s mor e l i ke a t eacher of t he wor d. ” MC: “ Wel l wer e t her e any t hi ngs done i n t he communi t y t hat you wer en’ t f ami l i ar wi t h: t r adi t i ons , pr ayer s , or anyt hi ng?” CS: “ Not r eal l y. Bas i cal l y t he same, of cour se ever ybody have di f f er ent per sonal i t i es and bel i eve i n doi ng t hi ngs i n one cour se. ” 173 MC: “ So how much do you know about t he deed t hat s t i pul at ed t hat t he chur ch appar ent l y was onl y supposed t o—t he l and was onl y bel ongi ng t o t he chur ch as l ong as— CS: “ Oh yeah. I di dn’ t know anyt hi ng about i t unt i l we, we had our f i r s t meet i ng and peopl e br ought up di f f er ent conver sat i ons concer ni ng t he deed and um t he Eaves and um, Sher mans , Rever end Sher man s t ar t ed comi ng down wi t h us , and he’ s been her e al l of hi s l i f e I t hi nk and Henr y and uh, wel l I t hi nk, no, I ’ m not r eal l y sur e about Deacon Br own, cause I t hi nk Deacon Br own moved her e f r om somewher e el se. But um, t he Eaves , Henr y, and t he Sher mans , Benzena was t r yi ng t o t el l me somet hi ng about i t , but s ee, I don’ t t hi nk she’ s or i gi nal l y f r om her e, um, Henr y’ s or i gi nal l y f r om her e, f r om what I ’ m under s t andi ng. And Rever end Sher man, t hey wer e sayi ng ah, t hat i t , t he l and used t o bel ong t o, t o um Kent l and and t hey gave i t t o t he s l aves dur i ng t hat t i me. ” MC: “ To s t ar t a chur ch? CS: “ Yeah. ” MC: “ I j us t t hi nk t hat ’ s t he neat es t s t or y because i t r eal l y mot i vat ed t he chur ch t o keep t he l and. ” CS: “ And I t hi nk Benzena was , was abl e t o get i n t ouch wi t h some owner s , t hat used t o be owner s back dur i ng s l aver y t i mes , or knew of some of t he f ami l y f r om t he Kent s , f r om t he ah, Kent l and. Um, f r om what I under s t and, what she sai d, t hat she was abl e t o cont act some of t he f ami l y t hat wer e s t i l l l i vi ng. Concer ni ng some of t he di f f er ent s i t uat i ons concer ni ng t he l and. ” MC: “ What has your exper i ence been wi t h t he communi t y s i nce you’ ve l i ved her e?” CS: “ Wel l , I ’ m goi ng t o be hones t wi t h you. I ’ m ki nd of a l oner . Yeah {l aughi ng}. When I ’ m i n chur ch and ar ound peopl e, when I ’ m ar ound peopl e I ’ m a peopl e per son but I ’ m not ver y out goi ng. My husband i s t he out goi ng per son, he i s t r ul y t he out goi ng per son. Um, I ’ m, anyt hi ng you know, I t el l t hem al l t he t i me, anyt hi ng I can hel p t o do i n any s i t uat i on j us t l et me know, but ot her t han t hat , I ’ m j us t a homebody r eal l y, yeah. ” MC: “ Do you ever t hi nk about what t he f ut ur e i s f or t he chur ch?” 174 CS: “ I have had vi s i ons of t he chur ch r eal l y gr owi ng. Ah, my vi s i on at one t i me was t hat t he, t he peopl e woul d act ual l y s t ar t comi ng and suppor t i ng t he chur ch and ser vi ng God t o t he poi nt wher e t hat chur ch woul d be t oo smal l t hat t hey woul d have t o gr ow. We’ ve done some, l i ke I s ai d, we’ ve done some, oh have, you haven’ t been down t her e r ecent l y. Um, t hey’ ve done some, t hey’ ve done some wor k i n t he basement t o um, t o r emodel , and i t r eal l y l ooks ni ce. Las t t i me I l ooked t hey hadn’ t f i ni shed, but i t r eal l y l ooks ni ce down t her e. ” MC: “ Wi l l you s t ay as l ong as you’ r e cal l ed t oo hel p t he chur ch gr ow?” CS: “ Yeah, I , you know how you can get , you can r eal l y get di scour aged somet i mes because um, t he wor d of t he l or d i s t he, of t he f al l en of f of t he chur ch t hat t her e, somet i me t he member shi p i s good and t hen t her e’ s t i mes you go down t her e and maybe j us t a f ew peopl e. And somet i mes t hat ’ s di scour agi ng, not onl y so much as j us t t he chur ch i t s el f , but peopl e need t he under s t andi ng t hat t hey need, you know, t he Lor d i n t hei r l i f e. And i t ’ s ki nd of s ad when you, when you see how good God i s t o peopl e, so many di f f er ent t hi ngs come about , l i ke um, t he t r agedy at ah, wel l j us t ever yday l i f e, and peopl e j us t don’ t r eal i ze, i t ’ s ki nd of s ad. And I l ook at t he chi l dr en and i t ’ s , peopl e j us t don’ t r eal i ze t hei r r espons i bi l i t y of t r yi ng t o hel p t hei r chi l dr en t o make a bet t er wor l d and i n or der t o do t hat , f i r s t you got t a know God, t o do t hat . I f you don’ t know God, you can’ t do i t on your own. Too much cr uel t y i n t he wor l d f or t hat . ” MC: “ A l ot of t he el der s you know ar e get t i ng on up i n t hei r age, and a l ot of t hei r chi l dr en have moved away out of t he communi t y. ” CS: “ Yeah! ” MC: “ But do you f eel l i ke ah wi t hout t he chur ches or wi t hout t he f ai t h i n t he communi t y, t hat t her e woul d cease t o be a Wake For es t Communi t y?” CS: “ I don’ t t hi nk so. Cause i n my exper i ence, l i ke even i n Wes t —l i ke I l i ved i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a, you coul d, a l ot of peopl e get ol der , t he el der l y peopl e t hat ar e dyi ng out , but t he gener at i ons t hat come up, come up, you know. Mos t of t he t i me when you l eave home, l i ke even at a r et i r ement age or what ever , a l ot of peopl e al ways come back home. And I t hi nk as l ong as t her e’ s gener at i ons of chi l dr en of a f ami l y, t hat communi t y—t her e’ s al ways goi ng t o be someone t o keep i t goi ng. ” MC: “ I j us t have t hought t o mysel f and f r om t al ki ng t o ot her peopl e t hat i t s eems l i ke t he chur ch r eal l y and t he f ai t h i n t he communi t y r eal l y hol ds 175 i t t oget her , hol ds t he peopl e and t hei r t r adi t i ons t oget her , but do you t hi nk t her e’ s ot her t hi ngs t hat do t hat , or woul d you agr ee?” CS: “ I t hi nk t he chur ch i s pr obabl y what you woul d somewhat s ay i s t he mai nf r ame, and t hen t oo, I l ook ar ound her e i n Bl acksbur g, t he t i me t hat I ’ ve been her e, Bl acksbur g i s bui l —seems l i ke i t ’ s bui l di ng up a l ot so. ” [ 17: 26] CS: “ Wel l you know when you—I know t hat we have been except ed i n t he communi t y, but when you go t o a communi t y, l i ke we moved her e i n t he communi t y and t her e ar e peopl e l i ke t he Sher mans , t he Eaves , and t hat communi t y has al ways know t hose names , t hey’ r e ver y f ami l i ar wi t h t he ol der gener at i ons , younger gener at i ons , and so f or t h, um, t hat um, when you, when you j oi n i n wi t h t hat communi t y, you’ r e a par t of t hat communi t y, but t hat , t hat ol der par t i s what i s al ways goi ng t o be t he, back t o t hat mai nf r ame of t he communi t y. Li ke um Rever end Sher man and Henr y and al l of t hem. They—peopl e know t hei r names al l over t he pl ace and i t ’ s j us t , i t ’ s j us t a wonder f ul t hi ng t hat you’ ve l i ved i n a pl ace al l your l i f e and t o be so wel l known t hat i t ’ s , i t ’ s an as set i n i t s el f , you know, i n t hat communi t y. Cause i t was a l ady—wher e was I ?—I went out somewher e t he ot her day, was a l ady aski ng me di d I know, I t ol d um, I know some Eaves because I had j us t moved her e. I hadn’ t l i ved her e al l my l i f e, but I know some Eaves . I don’ t t hi nk i t was t he ones she was t al ki ng about . Thi s l ady was um, what I ’ m sayi ng i s , mos t pl aces you go ar ound, al l over i n Vi r gi ni a and you r un i nt o peopl e and you get i n conver sat i on wi t h peopl e, somet i me and j us t i n gener al conver sat i on a name pops up and t he t wo speci f i c names t hat al ways pop up i s Eaves or Sher man. And t hat j us t goes t o show t hat t hei r , t hei r , um gener at i on i s so, I mean—t hei r name i s so wi de spr ead f r om so many gener at i ons : Thei r f at her ’ s f at her ’ s f at her or what ever and di f f er ent ar eas peopl e have wor ked wi t h t hem or what ever . I t ’ s l i ke, you know, t hey’ r e wel l known her e. MC: “ Yeah, do you f eel l i ke t her e’ s a r espect f or names i n t hi s par t ?” CS: “ Yeah. Yes , yeah, and Rever end Sher man t hat i s wi t h my husband, peopl e l ove hi m so dear l y, he such a—he r emi nds me so much of my dad. He does ; my dad was smal l l i ke hi m and he was a r eal l y humbl e—ever ybody l oved hi m. ” 176 MC: “ My ques t i on, i t doesn’ t have t o be someone you’ r e t he cl oses t wi t h or you know t he bes t , but who i s somebody t hat you f eel l i ke i s a r ol e model or her o t o you i n t he communi t y. Rever end Sher man?” CS: “ Yeah, I woul d have t o s ay Rever end Sher man. Bot h r el i gi ous l y and j us t as a per son i n gener al . Yeah. ” MC: “ Why i s t hat ?” CS: “ Because, some of t he char act er i s t i cs I j us t ment i oned l i ke my dad. He’ s—you never hear anyone say a bad wor d about hi m, and t hat , t o l i ve a l i f et i me, he’ s i n hi s 80’ s , t o l i ve a l i f et i me, and my dad was 93 when he pas sed, t o l i ve a whol e l i f et i me and peopl e know you and r espect you and l ove you. To l i ve t hat l ong, and peopl e car e t hat much about you know, i t ’ s a speci al —t her e’ s somet hi ng speci al i n you and he has t hat . Ver y humbl e, ver y sweet per son. And wi l l do anyt hi ng he can whet her he f eel l i ke i t or not . I f somebody ask hi m t o do somet hi ng, he’ s out t her e t r yi ng t o do i t . . . . And he’ s so cons i der at e of ot her peopl e, he’ s j us t , I don’ t know, he’ s a ver y speci al per son. ” 177 De ac on Wi l l i am “ Bi l l ” Br own—Jul y 2, 2007 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The home of Wi l l i am Br own i n Long Shop, Mont gomer y Count y, Vi r gi ni a. I nt er vi ew i s t aki ng pl ace out s i de i n t he f r ont l awn, i n l awn chai r s . Second hal f of t he i nt er vi ew t akes pl ace i n mul t i pl e s et t i ngs . Deacon Br own dr i ves out t o Wake For es t Cemet er y, up Bi g Vei n Road, down t o Kent l and Pl ant at i on, up t o t he Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch and t he apar t ment / pr evi ous school behi nd i t , and back t o hi s own home. The i nt er vi ew cont i nues i n al l t hese set t i ngs . Not e s : Sever al s ent ences ar e mar ked as uncl ear because ent i r e wor ds ar e mi s s i ng f r om t he r ecor di ng, due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y. Ther ef or e, t he ar t i cul at e speaker i naccur at el y seems di s j oi nt ed i n speaki ng at i ndi cat ed pl aces . When t he speaker begi ns , he i s pi cki ng up f r om a conver sat i on he and t he i nt er vi ewer had f i ve mi nuet s bef or e t he r ecor di ng began about ot her i nt er vi ews he had done and ot her pr oj ect s i n whi ch he’ s been i nvol ved r egar di ng Wake For es t , Mont gomer y Count y, Af r i can Amer i can achi evement s , and wor k i n j us t i ce and pol i ce bus i nes s i n Vi r gi ni a as an of f i cer and chi ef . These not es r epr esent t he maj or i t y of t he i nt er vi ew; however , s el ect i ons ar e made t o i l l umi nat e mor e about chur ch and r el i gi ous l i f e i n Wake For es t . [ Ti me checks i ndi cat ed] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. WB: “ Yeah. Peopl e have done, uh, when we, t he chur ch cl osed about f i ve year s ago. I t was open, cl osed about t wo year s , and um, t he member shi p, j us t , j us t f el l of f . I mean, you know, you go up, t her e’ s t he pas t or , t her e’ s mysel f , and maybe my mom, maybe my wi f e, and t hat was about i t . And uh, so I was sor t of i n char ge of ever yt hi ng t her e at t he t i me and uh, t he uh, we—I j us t t ol d t he pas t or , ‘ Hey, we j us t cl os i ng t he chur ch. ’ I t t akes money t o pay t he bi l l s and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s , and br i ngi ng t he money i n. But pr i or t o t hat cl os i ng, pr obabl y uh, I want t o s ay l i ke‘ 90, i t mi ght have been l at er t han t hat —uh, ear l y t han t hat , but um, I r emember uh, Deacon Banni s t er , who was up t her e, uh, t he chur ch had cl osed down and hi s wi f e had di ed and he was ki nd of el der l y. And uh, I r emember cut t i ng t he gr as s and he came t o s ee me. He says , ‘ Wel l , I want t o t r y t o open t he chur ch up, want ed t o know i f you’ d hel p me. ’ And I s ai d, “ Wel l , l et me t hi nk about i t . ” And, um, so a coupl e weeks l at er , he and t he mi ni s t er 178 at t he t i me, Rever end Cr os l i n, came t o s ee me, and uh, and so I t ook i t as t hi s way, I s ays , ‘ You know, I al ways had a l ot of r espect f or Mr . Banni s t er , and I di dn’ t know Rever end Cr os l i n. He was an ol der man t oo, so i n t al ki ng t o hi m, I gai ned r espect f or hi m. And I s ays , ‘ You know, when God sends one messenger af t er you, and you don’ t r espond, t hen he sends t wo messenger s af t er you, i t ’ s t i me t o r espond and hel p t hi s . And uh, so we uh, opened t he chur ch up at t hat par t i cul ar t i me, and member shi p di d not gr ow, I mean, i t j us t whi t t l ed on 3 or 4 peopl e and l i ke t hat . And Mr . Banni s t er ended up i n a nur s i ng home, and uh, cause he woul d come t o chur ch on t wo canes . And he was i n a nur s i ng home f or about a year , and we had ser vi ces l i ke t he second and f or t h Sundays , t wo Sundays a mont h. My mom woul d go and so f or t h and uh, t hen one day pr obabl y about a year , t hat man got out of t he nur s i ng home, got back i n hi s home, and he came t o chur ch. Li ke I t ol d Mr . Banni s t er , I s ai d, ‘ You know, ’ I t hi nk he mi ght have been 78, 79 or somet hi ng l i ke t hi s . I s ai d, ‘ Mr . Banni s t er , ’ I s ai d, “ You know what ? God j us t ai n’ t t hr ough wi t h you yet . ’ See, t hi s chur ch f l our i shed cause anyt i me you go t o t he nur s i ng home, and peopl e s ays , ‘ I j us t don’ t t hi nk he’ s goi ng t o make i t . ’ And he get s back out and wal ks wi t h t wo canes . I mean he was j us t an amazi ng man. And uh, so event ual l y, he ended up back i n t he nur s i ng home and uh, t he chur ch f l our i shed t her e a l i t t l e bi t . We t r i ed, and t r i ed, and t r i ed. Ther e was seven. {Reverend} Tur ner , a young man, t r i ed f or a coupl e t i mes . We had a coupl e pr ogr ams and t hi ngs . Peopl e came t o t he pr ogr ams , but af t er t hat t hey di dn’ t come t o chur ch. And so l at er on down up i nt o about 5 year s ago, we cl osed t he chur ch down and Rever end Spr aggi ns came t o t he communi t y; chur ch s i t t i ng up t her e empt y. He had t aken i t upon hi msel f t o mow t he gr as s and s t uf f . I t had got t en ki nd of hi gh and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . So I s een hi m up t her e and i n t he chur ch and sat down and t al k t o hi m, you know, and he t al ked f or about an hour or t wo, and we pr ayed about i t and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s . And I s ai d, ‘ Let me t el l you somet hi ng, t her e’ s not much money her e. ’ And he sai d, ‘ Wel l , I ’ m not l ooki ng f or money, I ’ m l ooki ng t o save soul s . ’ ‘ But i f t hat ’ s what you want t o do’ {Deacon Brown t ol d hi m}. And t hen event ual l y, he wor ked on t he chur ch and t hen we got t oget her a meet i ng of peopl e i n t he communi t y. What I was al ways t ol d by Deacon Banni s t er : i f t hat chur ch ceased t o become t he chur ch, t he pr oper t y went back t o t he or i gi nal peopl e who des i gnat ed, you know, 100 year s ago f or t he chur ch. And so, number of peopl e, Mr s . Eaves hel ped me send s t uf f out t o ever ybody i n t he communi t y, so a number of peopl e came. But , some of t he ol der peopl e t her e, uh, and some of t hem ar e s i nce pas sed, and i t ’ s 179 wel l , al l t he t r us t ees of t hi s chur ch had di ed and we had t o es t abl i sh new t r us t ees t o do t hi s and t hat . And uh, so as i t went on: ‘ You wanna be i t , no, I don’ t wanna be i t . ’ Nobody want ed t o be a t r us t ee. I guess t hey f el t cause of t he r espons i bi l i t y. Now I ’ m a t r us t ee at t he chur ch. And I got an at t or ney i n t own, uh, and he donat ed hi s s er vi ces , Mar shal l Fr ank, i n get t i ng al l t he l egal t hi ngs , and t hat was a bi g hel p t o t he chur ch. So uh, my br ot her -i n- l aw’ s a t r us t ee, uh, Mr . and Ms . Eaves , Mr s . Spr aggi ns i s a t r us t ee, J ames Sher man—Rever end Sher man i s a t r us t ee. And uh, so event ual l y uh, I t hi nk i t was Sept ember al mos t t hr ee year s ago i s when we had t he openi ng of t he ser vi ce. Qui t e a f ew peopl e came. Uh, peopl e f r om ot her chur ches and t hi ngs . We had a pr et t y, pr et t y exci t i ng t i me t hat par t i cul ar Sunday. And we s t ar t openi ng up and seem l i ke t he member shi p and t he member shi p s t ar t ed t o gr ow, and t hen member shi p j us t s t ar t ed f al l i ng of f , you know. Uh, no one woul d commi t t o comi ng on. I don’ t know how many peopl e we bapt i zed. We bapt i zed um i n t hi s cr eek over her e by t hi s chur ch and uh, peopl e woul d commi t , go t o chur ch, I mean some we bapt i zed, we bapt i zed um, t hey came back t wo or t hr ee t i mes and t hey haven’ t been back s i nce. And I don’ t know what t he pr obl em i s . And i t ’ s t wo s i t uat i ons , you can l ook at t hi s , I haven’ t been t o chur ch pr obabl y i n about 5 weeks because about ever y Sunday my wi f e and I —t her e’ s about 17 chur ches i n di s t r i ct E and we vi s i t t o l et peopl e, you know, know t hat I ’ m r unni ng f or Boar d of Super vi sor s {Thus , Deacon Brown has been at church al l 5 weeks , he’ s s i mpl y been away f rom Wake Fores t Bapt i s t }. And I mean t he Communi t y Chur ch—t hei r s er vi ce was one hour and f i ve mi nuet s . Our s er vi ces up t her e s t ar t at 11: 00, and somet i mes we got out at 1: 30. Uh, {I } was up at t he Communi t y—Fai r vi ew Communi t y Chur ch, i f you go on up wher e you went t o Sunnys i de Chur ch, i f you on up t her e f ur t her —now t he chur ch, Sunnys i de Chur ch, I wi l l be at t hat chur ch next Sunday—but you go on up t o Fai r vi ew Communi t y. MC: “ Wher e J i mmi e Pr i ce pr eaches?” WB: “ You know J i mmi e Pr i ce?” MC: “ I do. ” WB: “ He’ s a good man! So, uh, hi s s er vi ce, t hey had Sunday School f r om 10: 00 t o 11: 00. At 12: 10 peopl e wer e out . And I don’ t know whet her peopl e—and i t ’ s t wo di f f er ent t hi ngs . Uh, s eems l i ke our s er vi ces ar e l onger {At Wake Fores t Bapt i s t }. And I don’ t know whet her peopl e have so many t hi ngs t o do, don’ t want t o s i t t her e t hat l ong. J i mmi e Lee, I mean, 180 uh, pr eached a wonder f ul s er mon, you know. And uh, t her e was some peopl e t hat came up at t he end. One l ady had cancer , and she was t aki ng chemo, and she came up and t her e was anot her l ady t her e wi t h anot her pr obl em. So t wo or t hr ee peopl e came up and he anoi nt ed wi t h oi l and pr ayed, next t hi ng I know, we’ r e s t andi ng out i n t he par ki ng l ot t al ki ng t o peopl e and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . So I don’ t know why peopl e don’ t go or not go or what t hei r ques t i on i s {To Wake Fores t Bapt i s t }, I t hi nk Rever end Spr aggi ns i s a ver y good man. I t hi nk hi s hear t i s i n t he r i ght pl ace and t hi s communi t y, t he communi t y of Wake For es t , i n t he begi nni ng, when we moved her e i n 1961, and i t s eems as i f t hat um ever ybody moved i n her e l i ke out s i der s . At t he t i me, and even, you’ l l t al k t o some peopl e—even Mr . Banni s t er , I don’ t know how many year s he was her e, and we sai d, ‘ Wel l maybe, Mr . Banni s t er , i f we went ar ound and vi s i t ed peopl e—” and t ol d hi m. ‘ No, ’ he sai d, ‘ I ’ ve been her e a l ong t i me, r eal l ong’ {Mr. Banni s t er poi nt s out t hat you can make f r i ends , become f ami l i ar , and make house vi s i t s , but wi l l s t i l l be “ out s i der s” } . So out s i der sor t of s t uck i n my mi nd and uh, because uh, a number of t he peopl e t her e ar e r el at ed t o each ot her by cous i ns or somet hi ng, and I don’ t know whet her t hi s out s i der t hi ng t hat you’ r e not r eal l y i n t he cl i que j us t l i ke i s uh, uh, somet hi ng t hat hangs , you know, i n t he shadows . ” Because, um, our f i r s t , t he f i r s t per son i n our f ami l y t hat di ed her e was my dad. And we s t ar t ed our own cemet er y. We di dn’ t go out t o Wake For es t Cemet er y. We j us t s t ar t ed our own cemet er y and um, mat t er of f act , my mom’ s bur i ed i n i t , one of my br ot her s i s bur i ed i n i t , my s i s t er ’ s bur i ed i n i t . And i t ’ s j us t l i ke, um, at t he t i me, you know, you be at f uner al s and t hi ngs and peopl e s ay, ‘ Wel l we savi ng t hi s pl ace f or t hi s or we’ r e s avi ng t hi s spot f or so and so, I ’ m savi ng t hi s spot . ’ Wel l , we di dn’ t want t o go t hr ough a whol e bunch of s t uf f —not t hat we woul d have, we di dn’ t know. And j us t l i ke my dad was i n t he hospi t al and we’ d al ways t al ked about s t ar t i ng our own cemet er y when, when someone had di ed and t hen um—cause he knew exact l y bef or e he di ed wher e he was goi ng t o go. Cause t hey’ d amput at ed hi s l eg. . . . ” {Deacon Brown expl ai ns how hi s f at her ’ s l eg was amput at ed and bur i ed by hi s f ami l y i n t hei r new f ami l y cemet ery. When he passed, hi s body was bur i ed t here bes i de t he l eg}. [ 10: 38] WB: “ And i t ’ s a l ot of peopl e t oo—t her e was a s chool back behi nd t he chur ch. I t ’ s a t wo r oom school , uh, mat t er f act , t he wat er f or t hat {Bapt i s t } chur ch comes f r om t hat apar t ment up t her e, used t o be a s chool . Now I went t o Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e i n Chr i s t i ansbur g and t he br ot her next t o me and al l t he younger ones went t o t hat s chool dur i ng—bef or e i nt egr at i on, ok. And I was ol d enough t o go {t o CI I } because t hey had 8- 12 and I was i n 8t h gr ade and my br ot her s and t hi ngs wer e i n l i ke 6t h and on 181 down. They had 7t h t hr ough f i r s t . Yeah, cause t hey had one t eacher f or al l t hose di f f er ent cl as ses and t hi ngs . So by t he school bei ng t her e, t her e was l i ke a t i e t o t he chur ch. And uh, and I woul dn’ t go t o chur ch a whol e l ot , but I went t o chur ch some. And t hat chur ch was l i ke f ul l of peopl e, you know, and wi t h t hose peopl e. I can go out t o t he cemet er y and show you, s ay: ‘ Hey, t hi s per son woul d go, t hi s per son woul d go. ’ And i t s eems t hat t he ol der peopl e di ed out , but t her e’ s some younger peopl e comi ng al ong t oo, t o t ake t he pl aces . And a l ot of chur ches you go t o, you’ l l l ook and you’ l l s ee mi ddl e- aged peopl e and ol d peopl e. But you don’ t s ee peopl e l i ke your sel f t her e {Ref erenci ng 19- year - ol d i nt ervi ewer}, ones t hat goi ng t o s t ep i n when ot her s ar e gone on, you know. Now I di d see at t he Communi t y Chur ch up i n McCoy, uh, J i m Fl ogger s chur ch, t her e wer e qui t e a f ew. Ther e’ s peopl e t o car r y on t he dut i es and t hi ngs and so f or t h. But uh, but you l ook at uh, t he chur ch t her e, even, you know, seems l i ke wi t h t he Hol i nes s Chur ch bei ng t he New Pent ecos t al , i n t hat chur ch, s eem l i ke t he New Pent ecos t al Chur ch r eal l y t hr i ved and t hen i t was l i ke t hi s , but i t ’ s f al l en of f . And I don’ t know why i t f el l of f . Some of t he, t he member s t hat went t o t hat chur ch and t hi ngs , whet her i t was a spl i t some way wi t h t he bus i nes s of i t and so f or t h, you know. And peopl e don’ t r eal l y under s t and when you have a covenant of t he chur ch, t he maj or i t y r ul es , and i f you—you shoul d go on wi t h t he pr ogr am, but i f t he maj or i t y vot e f or t hi s , and i t ’ s agai ns t your opi ni on or what ever , you don’ t get up and l eave, you s t ay and make i t wor k. But uh, t hat chur ch i s j us t s t r i vi ng t o sur vi ve, l i ke t he Bapt i s t chur ch t hat we have i s s t r i vi ng. ” [ 13: 16] WB: “ I can r emember , t hi nk i t was Rever end Cobbs , i t was ei t her Rever end Tr avi s or Rever end Cobbs t hat had t hat chur ch when we {Wi l l i am Brown’ s parent s and s i bl i ngs} came her e. Cause I knew t her e was Paul Johnson, Rever end Johnson—he’ s got a bi g chur ch i n Roanoke. No, he came af t er war ds , s ee t her e pr obabl y 25. . . year s ago, 25, yeah, or 30 year s ago. But i t was Rever end—I want t o s ay Rever end Cobbs . Then, t hey had chur ch second and f or t h Sundays cause Cobbs pr eached somewher e el se t he f i r s t and t hi r d Sundays and he came her e. He l i ved over i n Pul aski Count y. ” [ 14: 03] WB: “ And I di dn’ t go a whol e l ot dur i ng t hat t i me {Deacon Brown i s r ecal l i ng hi s l ow church at t endance dur i ng hi s yout h}. I mean, on occas i on. And uh f or t he s i mpl e r eason: when I was young, we moved her e. Ever y Sunday, my mom got us up and we had t o go t o Sunday School . And I r emember wal ki ng t o Sunday School and sayi ng, ‘ Man i f I ever gr ow up, I ’ m not goi ng t o go t o Sunday school , I ’ m not goi ng t o make my ki ds go t o 182 Sunday school . Ther e’ s t hr ee t hi ngs : My ki ds ar e not goi ng t o have t o go t o Sunday School , t hey’ r e not goi ng t o have t o eat peas , I hat e peas , l i ke gr een peas , so t hey not goi ng t o have t o eat peas . ’ Now, I l ove peas now, you know. And what was t hat ot her ? Ther e was t hr ee t hi ngs t hey di dn’ t have t o do. And t hen as you gr ow up and you mat ur e, you say. ‘ Mmmm. Man was I wr ong. ’ You know, t hat ’ s r i ght . And i t goes back t o pr over bs , ‘ Tr ai n t he chi l d t he way t hat t hey shoul d gr ow when t hey’ r e young, and when t hey get ol d t hey wi l l not depar t f r om i t . You know. ” {Deacon Wi l l i am Brown di scusses hi s parent s and el even s i bl i ngs . They moved around so t hei r f at her coul d keep work, endi ng up i n t he Bl acksburg area when hi s f at her began worki ng i n a powder pl ant i n 1961. He recal l s how t hey grew up poor , but as chi l dren, never r eal i z ed t hat t hey were poor}. [ 16: 41] “ We moved her e i n 1961, and we l i ved i n—r ent ed a house, and t hen my par ent s bought a house: a t wo- s t or y ol d f ar m house. And i n Febr uar y of 1966 t he house caught on f i r e and bur nt down. And al l of us s at ar ound and we had uh, l i ke a f ami l y meet i ng. Cause a, such a l ar ge f ami l y, uh, mat t er f act , Mr s . Es t her Jones ’ mom, some of us s t ayed at her house. Some s t ayed at Es t her ’ s aunt ’ s house, Mi s ses Kat e—who di es at 98—Fear s . And so we’ r e al l sor t of a bi g f ami l y and peopl e t ook us i n and peopl e wer e r eal l y ni ce. And so t hen my dad was up i n Washi ngt on, t hi s i s Febr uar y, wor ki ng cons t r uct i on cause he got l ai d of f at t he pl ant over t her e. And uh, and i t snowed and col d, and wi t h cons t r uct i on wor k i f you don’ t wor k, you don’ t get pai d. So t wo uncl es came down and t hey owned t wo houses out t her e i n Bl uef i el d wher e we came f r om. So we s i t down and we t al k: ‘ Do we go back t o Bl uef i el d or do—’ and, and my br ot her Oscar spoke up, he sai d, ‘ Hey, t hi s i s our home now. We want t o s t ay her e. ’ And so a l ot of peopl e wi t hi n t he communi t y, peopl e f r om wher e I went t o s chool at t he Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e, t hey br ought us cl ot hes and shoes , and so we sur vi ved her e, you know, and so f or t h. And a l ot of t hose peopl e wer e t i ed t o t he t wo chur ches i n Wake For es t , you know. ” {Deacon Brown expl ai ns how hi s f ami l y at t ended Wake Fores t Bapt i s t not onl y because i t was one of f ew Bl ack churches i n Mont gomery Count y, but because i t was a cl oser dr i ve}. “ My mom went t o t hat chur ch al l t he t i me, I mean, she j us t went t her e al l t he t i me. Mat t er of f act , my dad’ s f uner al was conduct ed i n t hat chur ch t her e i n Wake For es t , and I guess at t hat par t i cul ar t i me, I r eal l y got i ngr ai ned i n t hat chur ch. . . al mos t l i ke i t ’ s a speci al pl ace. 183 And, and even as a young man, 22, 22 year s ol d, I woul d see Mr . Banni s t er mowi ng t he gr as s , cl eani ng t he f l ower s out , cause i t used t o be r eal l y pr et t y ar ound t hat chur ch. He had f l ower s , had t hi s and t hat . And Mr . Banni s t er woul d wor k al l day on a Sat ur day, you know, keepi ng t he i r i s es cl eaned out , i t was f l ower s al l down t he bank, f l ower s up t hi s s i de and ever yt hi ng. You know, cause I woul d r i de by and bl ow t he hor n at hi m, but I ’ d s ay, ‘ Man, t hat ol d man i s t ough. ’ And cause I mowed i t bef or e i t opened up. . . But , Rev. Sher man t akes car e of i t . . . . ” [ 20: 19] WB: “ The chur ch hel d t oget her , and i t was t he sense of communi t y. The chur ch—t her e wer e, s ee t her e was Wal t er Mi l t on, Mi l t ons wer e t her e, but bei ng a young ki d, t o me, al ways seemed l i ke ol der peopl e. You know, cause I t ur ned 60 l as t Tuesday, I ’ m f eel i ng l i ke, wel l t hat ’ s not t hat ol d. And uh, but i f was 20 l ooki ng at somebody 60, I ’ d s ay, ‘ Man t hat ’ s an ol d dude, ’ I ’ d l ook at somebody 50 and say, ‘ That ’ s an ol d dude. ’ Somet hi ng l i ke t hat . But t he ol der peopl e—and t her e was a l ot of uh, um, di sci pl i ne you know wi t h t he ki ds . I mean, t hese ki ds gr ew up when I get up, pl ayed wi t h ki ds out her e, i t was ‘ Yes Si r ’ and ‘ No Ma’ am. ’ Nobody t al ked back. To any ki d, t he ki ds , {uncl ear} r espect ed t he el der l y peopl e, al l t he el der l y peopl e i n t he communi t y r eal l y done t hi ngs r i ght . Now, seems l i ke t her e’ s a l i t t l e br eak down i n ki ds now, you know. But uh, t he ki ds wer e t her e and t he par ent s wer e t her e. And i t s eems l i ke, you t al ki ng about dr awi ng a cr owd, al l you got t o do i s s ay you’ r e havi ng some speci al event and you’ r e goi ng t o f eed, and peopl e ai n’ t been t o chur ch s i nce t he l as t f eedi ng, t hey’ l l come t o t hat f eedi ng, and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . Yeah, but you can’ t f eed ever y Sunday, t hen t hat woul d get ol d. And t hen anot her t hi ng t oo, i s j us t l i ke Rever end Spr aggi ns and hi s wi f e wer e new t o t he communi t y and ever ybody comes out f or t he newness and t hen, cause I was t al ki ng t o hi m t he ot her day, s ays {To Reverend Spraggi ns}, ‘ Yeah, you wer e new and peopl e came out . You t al ked t o peopl e. Now you ol d hat , you’ r e j us t l i ke ever ybody el se i n t he communi t y. ” [ 22: 08] {Deacon Brown expl ai ns hi s concern f or l os t peopl e, and want i ng t hem i n church. He ment i ons f al se percept i ons peopl e have about church. Las t l y, he expl ai ns about bei ng scared of f f rom t he t wo churches when he was younger}. [ 25: 04] “ The gap i s t hat , when t he ol der peopl e l eave or di e of f , t her e’ s goi ng t o be ver y, ver y f ew. Young peopl e t hat we had comi ng t o t he chur ch at one t i me—somet i mes we’ d have 11, 12 ki ds t her e. And ki ds become t eenager s , you know, 15, 16. Jus t l i ke uh, when I was 15, I t hought I knew i t al l , 184 and t hought my par ent s di dn’ t know anyt hi ng. . . but t hat ’ s goi ng t o be a gap t her e. ” MC: “ Do you t hi nk t hey’ l l s t ep up?” WB: “ Pr obabl y wi l l f or t he s i mpl e r eason cause t he—each gr oup i n t her e now i s s t eppi ng up, but i t wi l l di s j oi nt ed{l y}, not l i ke i t car r i ed on t hr ough. I t ’ s l i ke i t ’ s when t he young ki ds over t her e pr obabl y i n t hei r 30’ s , t hey’ l l s ay, ‘ Duh. Look what I ’ ve mi s sed. I ’ m goi ng t o go i n and I ’ m goi ng t o do t hi s or t hat . ’ But t hey car r y on f r om 15, 16, 18, 19 on i n, t her e’ s t hat gap, you know. And I don’ t know whet her i t ’ s so many t hi ngs goi ng on i n our l i ves and soci et y and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s t hat t hey don’ t have t i me f or chur ch, or don’ t t ake t i me f or chur ch. ” [ 27: 13] {Deacon Brown ment i ons argument s wi t h pas t or s t hat happen i n every church. He di scusses how hi s pr i mary campai gni ng t echni que whi l e runni ng f or Board of Supervi sor s i s t o go t o churches , t al k wi t h members t o show hi s suppor t and i nt eres t f or hi s communi t y and communi t y churches . He not i ces t he di f f erence i n dres s f rom church t o church dur i ng t hi s pursui t . Peopl e i n Bl ack churches , he expl ai ns , wear more f ormal Sunday at t i r e t han many churches i n t he communi t y. Thi s i s hi s observat i on, not j udgment ; he l at er ment i ons how peopl e can worshi p exact l y t he same way wi t h or wi t hout cer t ai n cl ot hes}. WB: “ You pr obabl y hear d t he s t or y about t he or i gi nal chur ch bur ni ng down. You know and you r eal l y don’ t know. Some of t he ol d, ol der peopl e suspect some peopl e bur nt i t down, and some of t he ot her peopl e s ay, ‘ Wel l i t was acci dent , you know. ’ But i t was bui l t back. And you don’ t know when you t al k t o peopl e whet her i s was r eal l y, r eal l y r aci s t back i n t hose t i mes because dur i ng t he mi nes t he col or ed peopl e had t o wash i n a di f f er ent wash house t han t he whi t e peopl e, you know, and so f or t h. And t hey wor ked i n di f f er ent s ect i ons t han t he whi t e doi ng t he mi nes , peopl e down i n McCoy and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s {uncl ear}. But t hi ngs have r eal l y r eal l y changed. And I ’ m goi ng t o t el l you how t hi ngs r eal l y change. . . . ” [ 33: 45] {Deacon Brown expl ai ns an act of raci sm f rom a Real t or when he and hi s wi f e f i r s t moved i n t he Whi t e communi t y of Long Shop. Out s i de of t hi s one i nci dent , he expl ai ns t he nei ghbor l y and t rus t wor t hy rel at i onshi ps mai nt ai ned amongs t hi s Long Shop nei ghbors and f r i ends}. [ 37: 02] WB: {Af t er Deacon Brown t al ks about Long Shop, he moves back t o t he t opi c of Wake Fores t }. “ They {Wake Fores t } have t wo bi g annual event s over t her e: Memor i al Day and Labor Day, and I ’ ve never been. Now my s i s t er and 185 br ot her s wi l l go, but we ai n’ t never been, cour se I ’ m al ways doi ng somet hi ng. . . . ” [ 38: 42] WB: {He di scusses t he good rel at i onshi p bet ween t he Wake Fores t Bapt i s t and New Pent ecos t al Church member}. “ And nor mal l y, you know, you’ l l f i nd, somet i mes t he peopl e out of t he Hol i nes s—New Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s Chur ch, t hei r pas t or mi ght go somewher e f or t hat weekend or somewher e; wel l , t hey’ l l come out t o t hi s chur ch. A cor e gr oup of t hem wi l l come t o our chur ch, s ayi ng, ‘ Our pas t or went out of t own, ’ or somet hi ng l i ke t hi s , ‘ so we come out her e. ’ And t hen t he t wo chur ches t oo, when t hey have Communi t y Day, t hat weekend, t he communi t y ser vi ce i s ei t her —i f i t ’ s one year i t ’ s hel d at t he New Pent ecos t al , t he next year i t ’ s hel d at t he Bapt i s t . I t r ot at es back and f or t h. And, cause l i ke I s ai d, when t hey have Communi t y Day, al l of t he money or somet hi ng goes t owar d mai nt enance of t he cemet er y and t hi ngs l i ke t hat , you know. ” [ 39: 32] WB: “ Yeah, i t ’ s t he Communi t y Cemet er y. When i t s ays Communi t y Cemet er y, no one chur ch has mor e power t han any ot her . Now t hey have t r us t ees . The cemet er y has t r us t ees . ” {Deacon Brown goes i nt o great det ai l about hi s pl ans f or a l and exchange t hat woul d open up l and nei ghbor i ng t he Wake Fores t Cemet ery t o be an addi t i onal area f or bur i al s when t he cemet ery becomes f ul l }. [ 45: 15] MC: “ I f you had t o s ay—you can name t wo or t hr ee i f you want —but i f you had t o pi ck one per son i n t he communi t y who’ s been a r eal r ol e model or her o t o you, coul d you name one?” WB: “ James Sher man. The pas t or —associ at e pas t or at t he {Bapt i s t } chur ch. He i s t he ni ces t man. I t woul d be hi m. ” MC: “ Do you want t o expl ai n why you pi cked hi m?” WB: “ Knowi ng hi m, I went t o school wi t h hi s daught er , and knowi ng hi m over t he year s , and knowi ng how s t r ai ght f or war d, how hones t , how dependabl e, and how car i ng he i s : t hi s guy’ s ever yt hi ng. I mean, some peopl e wi l l t el l you, I t hi nk i f you t al k t o, t al k t o Mr . {Henr y} Eaves , and he says , i f somebody asked you what J esus l ooked l i ke, we woul d t el l you t hat i t woul d be James Sher man. Yeah. He’ s j us t t hat ki nd of man. ” [ 46: 30] {Li s t of pas t or s t hat Deacon Brown recal l s f ol l owi ng hi s move i nt o t he communi t y: Reverend PT Travi s , Reverend Gl enn Cobbs , John Cros l i n, Paul Johnson, Marcus Turner , Hi awat ha Spraggi ns}. 186 MC: “ Wel l , you di dn’ t t el l t he s t or y qui t e l i ke I hear d i t t he f i r s t t i me, I t hi nk f r om James Sher man t ol d, t hat he sai d when you saw uh, Rever end Spr aggi ns up her e cl eani ng, you got a l i t t l e upset bef or e you f ound out what he was doi ng. ” WB: “ Wel l , not upset . Concer ned, l i ke, ‘ What ’ s goi ng on?’ You know, l i ke, ‘ What ’ s goi ng on?’ You know, and he was t el l i ng me, we got t o t al ki ng and Hi awat ha Spr aggi ns has a per sonal i t y t hat you can war m up t o r eal qui ck, cause t hat ’ s t he f i r s t t i me I ’ d met hi m. Cause I had t he key, I went and opened t he chur ch up and we went and sat and t hi ngs l i ke t hi s , and uh, sor t of war med up t o hi m, and he sai d—t al ki ng about , want ed t o open i t up and so f or t h and I s ai d, ‘ Oh yeah. ’ You know. ” {WAKE FOREST CEMETERY TOUR: At t hi s poi nt , Deacon Brown i s expl ai ni ng t o t he i nt ervi ewer t he l i t t l e bi t t hat he know about each per son bur i ed i n t he Wake Fores t Cemet ery. He obvi ous l y i s more f ami l i ar wi t h t hose who were previ ous l y Wake Fores t Bapt i s t members . Some peopl e he ski ps over and goes t o t he next name i n whi ch he’ s f ami l i ar . The f ol l owi ng are some names and subj ect s t hat evoked memor i es he shared dur i ng t he t our}. 1) [ 49: 41] Ms . Kat e Fear s 2) [ 50: 40] Saxt on Gr ade & Pi g Roas t ( She f ounded Pi g Roas t s ) 3) [ 53: 00] Fr ank Banni s t er Juni or , Fr ank Banni s t er ’ s son. 4) [ 53: 03] : “ And t hey {t he Banni s t er s} got one {son} t hat ’ s LC, i s hi s name. He’ s r et i r ed. He pas t ur ed a gr eat bi g ol d chur ch i n Tol edo, Ohi o. And whenever he comes her e, he al ways goes t o t hat chur ch {Wake For es t Bapt i s t }. They hymn books i n t her e was donat ed by hi s son. . . he comes down about t wi ce a year . . . . ” 5) The year 1904 as one of ol des t gr aves . 6) [ 1: 06: 00] Memor i es of hi s cemet er y f ear s as chi l d. {Af t er l eavi ng t he cemet ery, Deacon Brown dr i ves up Bi g Vane Rd. where hi s mot her l i ved and where several s i bl i ngs l i ve now. He t hen drove up t o Kent l and f arm where he shared memor i es of worki ng t here as a t eenager}. [ 1: 07: 00] {Bi g Vane Road Tour . Saxt on’ s house. Hi s brot her ’ s house, hi s mot her ’ s house, and younger s i s t er who s i ngs i n Choi r at Wake Fores t . Kat e Fears ’ home where several of hi s f ami l y members s t ayed af t er t hei r home burnt . Es t er Jones ’ s mot her ’ s home}. 187 Es t he r Eave s Jone s — Oc t obe r 5, 2006 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The di ni ng r oom t abl e at t he home of Es t her Jones i n Wake For es t , Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : Es t her was bor n Mar ch 11, 1920. She l i ved i n Wake For es t al l her l i f e. Es t her i s t he daught er of Al exander Eaves and Mi l l i e Eaves . She was mar r i ed t o Howar d Jones . Es t her kept book f or her husband’ s coal mi ni ng bus i nes s . They had t wo chi l dr en; Ar nol d Jones and Jean Jones Eaves . Es t her ’ s f at her was a coal mi ner al so. Bot h her par ent s wer e member s at Wake For es t Hol i nes s Chur ch. Her gr andf at her hel ped bui l d Wake For es t Hol i nes s Chur ch near t he t ur n of t he Cent ur y. Wi t hi n Wake For es t and nei ghbor i ng communi t i es , Es t her , al so known as “ Mi ss Queen” and “ Oueeni e. ” She i s known as a book of knowl edge about her communi t y and her i t age. She i s t he Chur ch Mot her at t he Uni t ed Hol i nes s Chur ch i n Wake For es t and a wi del y r espect ed el der i n Nor t hwes t Mont gomer y Count y. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 2: 00- 3: 00] {Growi ng up i n t he mount ai n, Bi g Vai n Road}. Mor gan Cai n: Di d t hey go t o t he Wake For es t Chur ch? Es t he r Jone s : “ Yes” Mor gan Cai n: “ The Bapt i s t Chur ch or t he—” Es t he r Jone s : “ No, t hey {Es t her ’ s parent s} went t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. St ar t ed—we al l s t ar t ed i n t hi s l i t t l e chur ch up her e. ” The smal l , or i gi nal Wake Fores t Hol i nes s church}. Mor gan Cai n: “ And what was t he name of t hat chur ch?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Jus t t he Wake For es t Hol i nes s Chur ch” 188 Mor gan Cai n: “ Was i t ever any ot her denomi nat i on bef or e t hey named i t Hol i nes s? Es t he r Jone s : “ No. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ I t ’ s al ways been, even t he f i r s t year t hey—” Es t he r Jone s : “ Pent —I mean, i t ’ s Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s . ” [ 4: 40] Es t he r Jone s : “ I t s t ar t ed bef or e I was maybe bor n when t hey f i r s t s t ar t ed, but I t hought i t was t ot al l y bl ack. But t he f i r s t , t he chur ch t hat bur ned was bui l t by Schaef f er , Wi l l i am Schaef f er : t he same one t hat di d C. I . and al so Schaef f er Memor i al Bapt i s t Chur ch t her e i n Chr i s t i ansbur g. You bean t o t hat chur ch?” [ 5: 17] Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l he bui l t t he f i r s t chur ch out her e, on t he s i ght wher e t he Bapt i s t Chur ch i s r i ght out her e on t he hi l l . And he di d i t f or t he bl ack peopl e. ” [ 5: 45] Es t he r Jone s : “ But I know he di d bui l d t he chur ch, as he bui l t s ever al chur ches , you know, ar ound i n t he ar ea. Not i n t hi s ar ea; I n t he El l i s t on, Chr i s t i ansbur g, and back f ur t her up t he r oad, you know, maybe Wyt hevi l l e up i n t her e, Wyt he Count y and j us t di f f er ent ki nds . He di d t hat . But when t he, wel l I t el l you: t he spl i t t i ng of t he chur ch came when—t hi s was a whi t e a whi t e mi ni s t er —when he came t hr ough pr eachi ng her e. That mi ght be wher e J i mmi e—. And he pr eached Hol i nes s , you know. And whi ch was , t o me, I don’ t know, wel l i t was a di f f er ence i n t he s t yl e and wor shi p. And t hat ’ s when t he chur ch spl i t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And some f ol l owed t hat whi t e mi ni s t er ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ I mean, i t had t o do somet hi ng when t hey bur nt t he chur ch down. So dur i ng t hat t i me I t hi nk t hey—t he Hol i nes s Pent ecos t al s had chur ch, you know, i n homes and al l l i ke t hat . And t hen t he Bapt i s t , you know, bui l t t hei r own chur ch and t he Hol i nes s bui l t t hey own chur ch up her e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Do you know what year i t was bui l t ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ I woul d say 1919, 1920, maybe 1920. I t hi nk about t he year I was bor n, al l t hi s was goi ng on, you know. And I onl y know what my par ent s and my gr andpar ent , you know, t el l me about t hat per i od of t i me. ” 189 Mor gan Cai n: “ So your gr andpar ent s had gone t o t he Bapt i s t chur ch?” Es t he r Jone s : “ They al l at t ended t hat chur ch. That was t he onl y chur ch her e. But t hey came, you know, wi t h t he Pent ecos t al s cause my gr andf at her bui l t t hi s l i t t l e chur ch up her e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Real l y. What was hi s name?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Rober t Eves . And he bui l t t hat . Of cour se, wi t h t he hel p of t he men i n t he communi t y I mean. He di dn’ t do i t {al one}—I mean. But he was—hi s t r ade was car pent r y. Cause he bui l t a l ot : some of t he houses , I t hi nk maybe one or t wo ar e s t i l l out i n McCoy t hat he bui l t . ” {Fur t her descr i pt i on about her grandf at her bei ng a bui l der} [ 8: 00] Es t he r Jone s : “ But t he Cowans , down her e on Kent l and, wher e we wer e wor ki ng, you know, t hey gave t he t i mber . But t he men had t o have i t cut and t ook i t t o t he sawmi l l t o have i t s awed f or t he l umber f or t he chur ch, but t hey di d f ur ni sh. Ah, t hey {Cowans} may have done i t f or bot h chur ches , but I ’ m sur e t hey di d i t f or t hi s one. ” {Poi nt i ng t o t he or i gi nal Hol i nes s church} [ 9: 10] Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d you ever ask your par ent s or gr andpar ent s why t hey deci ded t o go t o t he Hol i nes s chur ch i ns t ead of goi ng back t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch?” Es t he r Jone s : “ I t hi nk t he r eason woul d be, i t was mor e Spi r i t f i l l ed, t he Hol i nes s . And you know, wel l , have you hear d, I know you’ ve hear d t he expr es s i on—whi ch i s a good expr es s i on—i s t hat t hey spoke i n t ongues? Wel l you know, at t hat t i me I don’ t t hi nk t he Bapt i s t —di dn’ t want t hat i n t her e, t hat chur ch, you know. So i t was j us t one of t hose t hi ngs t hat , ‘ You f ol l ow what you bel i eve’ and ‘ You f ol l ow what you bel i eve, ’ you know. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And was t her e any anger bet ween t he t wo congr egat i ons?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Not t hat I know of . Not , no, no. I mean I don’ t t hi nk so. Pr obabl y at t he t i me t he chur ch was bur nt t her e was , pr obabl y was some anger cause you know, i t was a beaut i f ul chur ch. Mor gan Cai n: “ Was t her e any r umor t hat someone had bur ned i t on pur pose?” 190 Es t he r Jone s : “ Oh yes . I t was ver y much so. I t had t o have been bur nt on pur pose. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d peopl e deci de why t hat had happened?” Es t he r Jone s : “ They di dn’ t want Hol i nes s i n t he Bapt i s t , t hat ’ s why, and you know—” Mor gan Cai n: “ So di d t hey t hi nk, al l egedl y, t hat one of t he Hol i nes s peopl e had bur nt t he chur ch?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No. I t wasn’ t a Hol i nes s who di d i t . No. I t was not t he ones t hat bel i eved i n t he Hol i nes s . They wer en’ t t he ones . Cour se al l t hat i s hear say and I don’ t l i ke t o put t oo much emphas i s on i t , you know. But I under s t and t hat some of t he peopl es , you know, or i gi nal s t hat was t her e, t hat di d i t . But I can’ t , I can’ t s ay t hat f or sur e. ” [ 11: 24] Es t he r Jone s : “ By t he t i me I came al ong as a chi l d, i f t hey wer e havi ng somet hi ng at t he Bapt i s t , we cl osed chur ch, we went t her e. And i f t hey wer e havi ng, I mean, t hey woul d do t he same. The bot h chur ches , t hey di dn’ t —you wor shi ped t oget her when you had t hi ngs . Or f or i ns t ance, maybe we had maybe Sunday School up her e i n t he mor ni ng, t hey had Sunday school i n t he af t er noon, and a l ot of t i mes we went t o t wo, you know. I mean you j us t , when—I ’ m t el l i ng you what happened by t he t i me I came al ong. I t ’ wasn’ t no, i t wasn’ t not hi ng, you know. Ever ybody wor ked t oget her as a communi t y. And we woul d have, somet i mes we’ d have bi g meet i ngs and peopl e woul d come i n f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a, Nor t h Car ol i na. You know, t o at t end what t hey—we woul d cal l a uni on, a convocat i on. Wel l , ever yone opened t hei r house and kept um. And t he same t hi ng when t hey had as soci at i ons and t hi ngs at t he Bapt i s t ; we opened our house and we’ d t ake car e of t he peopl e who came i n. Cause at t hat t i me, wasn’ t no mot el s , wasn’ t no hot el s . And we al l f i xed f ood and we di d ever yt hi ng t oget her . I t wasn’ t —i n my t i me—t her e was no s t r i f e or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat , t hey al l j us t —al l came t oget her . ” [ 13: 00] Mor gan Cai n: “ Now you sai d f or a f ew year s t hat t hey wor shi ped—t he Hol i nes s Chur ch—wor shi ped i n houses bef or e t hey bui l t t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. Do you know how l ong t hey wor shi pped i n houses?” Es t he r Jone s : “ I r eal l y don’ t , cause I don’ t know t he year r eal l y t hat t he chur ch bur ned and when t hi s one was—i t woul dn’ t be I woul d say over a per i od, I woul d say, l es s t han t wo year s . ” [ 13: 30] 191 Es t he r Jone s : And t hen peopl e r i ght now, I ’ m mean not —but s i nce I bui l t t hi s , s i nce I ’ ve l i ved at t hi s house, I ’ ve had what you’ d cal l cot t age meet i ngs . Jus t peopl e come; t hey had a chur ch t o go t o but we was goi ng f r om house t o house and havi ng ser vi ce. J i mmi e Lee {Pr i ce} know al l about t hat . ” [ 14: 18] Mor gan Cai n: “ So you sai d or i gi nal l y t hat t he Hol i nes s mi ni s t er came t hr ough t he Bapt i s t chur ch and t hat ’ s ki nd of wher e peopl e deci ded t hey l i ked t he i dea of Hol i nes s spi r i t ual i t y and bei ng f i l l ed wi t h t he spi r i t . Di d he s t ay at t he chur ch or di d anot her mi ni s t er come?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No, you know, peopl e woul d come t hr ough and car r y on r evi val and t hey’ d t r avel on, you know. I t hi nk, as f ar as I can r emember , t hat mi ni s t er was named—wel l t hen t her e wasn’ t no r ever end. Wasn’ t al l of t hat . Peopl e j us t cal l ed t hem br ot her ; br ot her t hi s and br ot her t hat —and I t hi nk hi s name was Br ot her Wi nd, W- I - N- D. As f ar as I know. And t hen t hey woul d come t hr ough and car r y on r evi val . They woul d t ake, I mean t hey di dn’ t es t abl i sh, you know, t o s t ay t her e any l engt h of t i me. Because t hei r bus i nes s was t o car r y t he gospel f r om ar ea t o ar ea. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wer e t her e ot her mi s s i onar i es or r evi val s t hat came t hr ough her e?” Es t he r Jone s : “ We had a l ot of pr eacher s t o come t hr ough up her e at t hi s l i t t l e chur ch bef or e we—bef or e t hey act ual l y got a pas t or , and some woul d come and s t ay maybe a week, and I r emember , I can r emember one mi ni s t er , hi s name was , uh, when he di ed he was a bi shop—Bi shop McKi nl ey. And he l i ved wi t h us back up i n t he mount ai n, I mean he s t ayed t her e. That was , he cons i der ed t hat hi s home. And I guess he was her e, I don’ t know, but f or a pr et t y l ong per i od. Of cour se he was f r om Nor t h Car ol i na I t hi nk. But he di ed i n Nor t h Car ol i na, he may have been f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a and come t hr ough her e. But I ’ m pr et t y sur e i t sounds t o me l i ke i t woul d have been Nor t h Car ol i na, but I don’ t know. ” [ 16: 30] Mor gan Cai n: “ When you wer e hol di ng ser vi ces i n your homes , woul d t her e be l i ke l ay mi ni s t er s? Woul d f ami l y member s l ead t he ser vi ces or j us t anyone?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Anyone. When you have meet i ng, t her e wasn’ t no cer t ai n per son, you know, l i ke a pas t or or not hi ng doi ng i t , i t ’ s j us t t he peopl e was doi ng i t . You’ d j us t come i nt o t he home and j us t have a s er vi ce. ” 192 Mor gan Cai n: “ Coul d women hol d ser vi ces?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Mmhmmn. Cause I , my pas t or ’ s a women. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ St i l l ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ The pas t or —you saw t he br i ck chur ch ar ound t he r oad. Di d J i mmi e t ake you al l t he way ar ound?” Mor gan Cai n: “ He showed me t hi s chur ch and t hen he dr ove me down t he r oad and showed me wher e Si s t er Kat e used t o l i ve. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ Oh yeah. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ He speaks ver y hi ghl y of her . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ Hugh? Oh yeah. That was my aunt , my mot her ’ s baby s i s t er . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And was she your mi ni s t er f or year s?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l , she j us t mi ni s t er ed ar ound. Wasn’ t nobody, per s ay, pas t or or mi ni s t er . Jus t l i ke my son, he pas t or s i n Pul aski , t he one I was t el l i ng you about . I n f act , he’ s i n t he pr oces s of bui l di ng a new chur ch up t her e. But uh, somet i mes i t ’ s j us t , somebody woul d come t hr ough, you know, and we woul d hol d ser vi ce l i ke t hat . ” [ 18: 13] Es t he r Jone s : “ They wer e ver y i nf or mal . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And even on Sundays , at t he chur ch, coul d anyone pr each or di d you have a r egul ar mi ni s t er ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l we di dn’ t have a r egul ar . Wel l somet i mes . . . we di dn’ t have a r egul ar at al l t i me, what ’ d I s ay as a pas t or , but my gr andf at her , whose name I gave you, Rober t s Eves , he was a deacon: ver y s t er n, ver y, ver y good. And so, he woul d al ways , I mean, he coul d car r y out t he ser vi ce. Any of t he deacons , and al l t he men, or t he women, or whoever was t her e, you j us t went on and had chur ch. I t wasn’ t no f or mal i t i es . Was not f or mal . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d you l i ke i t t hat way?” 193 Es t he r Jone s : “ Sur e. I s t i l l l i ke i t t hat way. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And i t cont i nues t o be i nf or mal wi t h a r egul ar mi ni s t er ? Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l , not as much now as i t was t hen, i nf or mal . Cour se, we s t i l l have congr egat i onal s i ngi ng and t hi ngs l i ke t hat , you know. You know, we don’ t have no pr ogr am, you know, t o go by. Not hi ng, we j us t ki nd of f ol l ow t hr ough, you know. ” [ 20: 26] Mor gan Cai n: “ Do you t hi nk i t ’ s i mpor t ant f or mi ni s t er s t o be l i censed or do you t hi nk anyone shoul d be abl e t o pr each. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ I don’ t t hi nk so, but t hat ’ s me. I f you want t o know me, no. I t hi nk when God cal l you t o do hi s wor k, I don’ t t hi nk you—I t hi nk t hat ’ s your pr i or i t y t o do t hat wor k. I don’ t t hi nk, I don’ t know whet her i t ’ s t he f act t hat you have t o be l i censed t o pas t or . I mean, I ’ m ol d f ashi oned, a l ot of t hi ngs over my head and I j us t l i ke t o j us t go on and j us t s er ve t he Lor d, and j us t go on you know and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . I t hi nk somet i me when man make r ul es , I ’ m not t oo, you know—somet i mes i nt o t hat . But I don’ t knock i t , but I don’ t s ee t he—I mean—t o me, I woul dn’ t t hi nk i t ’ d be neces sar y. ” [ 21: 56] Mor gan Cai n: “ When di d t he ser vi ces s t op bei ng someone di f f er ent each Sunday or di f f er ent el der s , and when di d i t s t ar t becomi ng f ul l - t i me mi ni s t er s?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l f or t he—we’ ve had f ul l t i me mi ni s t er s f or a l ong t i me. The pas t or t hat was her e bef or e she {Eyvonne Spencer} came, was her e f or 29 year s . He was a pas t or . He s t ar t i ng pas t ur i ng t hi s l i t t l e chur ch and t hen we bui l t t he ot her one. So you know we’ ve had a l ot of pas t or s down t hr ough t he year s . Some of um was a l ong di s t ance because t he pas t or t hat was her e f or 29 year s l i ved i n Mt . Ai r y, Nor t h Car ol i na. And he was her e ever y Sunday, you know. Ever y Sunday, f or 29 year s . And so, and bef or e he came, he had sever al , you know, di f f er ent pas t or s , but t hey al l l i ved a di s t ance; maybe come down f r om Gal ax, and, but we’ ve never been wi t hout a pas t or once we got s t ar t ed. I guess what t hey say i s your supposed t o have a Sheppar d, ar en’ t you? To f eed t he f l ock. ” [ 24: 24] Es t he r Jone s : “ I n our bel i ef , i f you ar e a s i nner , once you t ur n your l i f e ar ound and want t o be a Chr i s t i an, he f or gi ve you of your s i ns . You know, we al l ar e s i nner s s aved by gr ace. ” [ 26: 03] 194 {Conversat i on about bapt i z i ng by bei ng f ul l y emerged. Es t her was bapt i z ed i n Wake Fores t and i n t he Ri ver Jordon}. Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l does Wake For es t have a cer t ai n cr eek or pond t hat t hey go t o?” Es t he r Jone s : “ We go down t o t hi s cr eek down her e at Long Shop. Wher e J i mmi e and, you know, al l and ever y chur ch ar ound use t hat r un- i n at t he cr eek r i ght down t her e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And woul d t he Bapt i s t s go down and wat ch?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Mmhumn. And t hey go down t her e t o be bapt i zed t oo {Poi nt i ng up t he road t o t he Bapt i s t Church}. But bef or e t hen, bef or e we went t o t he—when you cr os s t hi s l i t t l e br i dge down her e, you know, t hat s t r eam goi ng r i ght , r i ght her e bel ow my house. You see al l t hi s used t o be open f i el ds . Wasn’ t no gr owt h up l i ke i t i s now, you know. And t her e’ s a beaut i f ul ar ea r i ght down on t he hi l l . The men woul d come maybe about t he mi ddl e of t he week, and damn i t up, make a damn when t hey was goi ng t o be a bapt i zi ng. Cause t he f i r s t t i me I was bapt i zed, I was bapt i zed down her e i n t hi s r i ght down her e i n t hi s br anch wher e t hey’ d damn i t up. ” And i t ’ s har d f or you t o bel i eve t hi s , but i t happened and I know i t happened cause I was t her e. I t happened. When i t was car r yi ng on r evi val i t was so col d t hat t hey, Sunday t hey was goi ng t o bapt i ze. The men had t o go down and cut i ce of f t he pond, but ever ybody went i n and bapt i zed j us t l i ke i t was June or Jul y. You know i t was i ce col d. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wer e you bapt i zed i n t he i ce?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No I wasn’ t , but I s ay I s aw i t when t hey di d. I was , I don’ t know what age I was . I was a chi l d t hen. I guess maybe was about 10, 9, or 10 year s ol d. But I r emember t hey had t o get t he i ce of f t he pond f or bapt i sm. ” [ 30: 32] Es t he r Jone s : “ I woul dn’ t s ay i t ’ s r equi r ed, but I bel i eve i t because why woul d he send John t o bapt i ze i f i t was not some meani ng t her e?” Mor gan Cai n: “ I n t hat s ame way, do you bel i eve i n f oot washi ng?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Yes . We don’ t do l i ke as of t en as we used t o, but we do i t . ” [ 31: 12] 195 Es t he r Jone s : “ We wi l l have communi on, and t hen af t er t hat we’ d have, you know—wash each ot her ’ s f eet . I t ’ s a symbol . ” {Conf erence wi t h a f eet washi ng servi ce}. [ 33: 35] Mor gan Cai n: “ What i s communi on l i ke at your chur ch? Do you have a l oaf , do you have speci al communi on—” Es t he r Jone s : “ No. We get t hat del i ver ed speci al br ead, you know, l i t t l e cubes , waf er s . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Unl eavened br ead?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Umhumn. Yeah you buy i t , unl eavened br ead. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ We have a woman i n our chur ch makes t hat , does someone i n your chur ch make i t ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No t hey buy. I used t o make i t al l t he t i me, but t hey s t ar t ed, you know. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ You don’ t make i t anymor e?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ When di d you begi n maki ng i t f or t he chur ch, when you wer e young?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l not t i l l maybe af t er , my mot her used t o do i t , maybe af t er she got so she coul dn’ t do i t . I l os t my mot her i n ‘ 79, cour se she’ d been s i ck, you know, seven year s , I mean, i n a nur s i ng home seven year s bef or e t hen. But I bel i eve I j us t t ook up wher e she—” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d you gr andmot her happened t o make i t t oo?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Yes . My gr andmot her , and t hen my mot her , t hen I di d. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ That ’ s speci al . ” [ 35: 45] Es t he r Jone s : “ See t hi s i s a smal l communi t y, and t hi s communi t y you know, al l t he ol der peopl e have gone. Seems l i ke t hi ngs change wi t h t i me, and i t r eal l y does you know. Ot her gener at i ons come al ong and t hey don’ t do t hi ngs exact l y l i ke you do, but I l i ke t o s t i ck t o t he t r adi t i on as much as I can. ” 196 Mor gan Cai n: “ What i s t he bi gges t change you’ ve seen?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l , one t hi ng, as I s ay, we don’ t have t hose many peopl e now. Peopl e di dn’ t mi nd get t i ng out and wal ki ng, and goi ng pl aces , and doi ng t hi ngs , but now l ook l i ke peopl e don’ t want t o do not hi ng unl es s t hey can r i de, you know, or somebody pi ck you up and al l . I t wasn’ t no f or mal i t y {bef ore}, ever yt hi ng was j us t r eal , r eal pl ai n. Now we don’ t have chur ch on Sunday ni ght . And t hat used t o be t he ver y t i me. That ’ s when we had t he bi gges t cr owds . And when t hi s l i t t l e chur ch f i r s t opened up her e and l i ke Sunnys i de, you know and al l t hat . Ther e was no {Pent ecos t al } chur ches t hen. Whi t e peopl e di d not have chur ches—I mean t he Hol i nes s , peopl e t hat was Pent ecos t al s , t hey di d not have no chur ch. And Sunday eveni ng, r i ght ar ound f i ve o’ cl ock, or somet hi ng ear l y, peopl e woul d come i n over t he mount ai n f r om ever y di r ect i on. We had ever ybody. You’ d be sur pr i s ed at t he peopl e t hat coul d get i ns i de t hi s l i t t l e chur ch, cause somet i mes we’ d have j us t as many you know, whi t e as we di d bl ack. And we wor shi ped t her e t oget her . And when chur ch l et out , somet i mes i t got out at t en o’ cl ock, you know, at ni ght or somet hi ng. And ever ybody l i t t hei r own ker osene l ant er ns and t hey headed back t owar d home. ” [ 38: 55] Es t he r Jone s : “ We woul d come t o mor ni ng ser vi ce and t hen we woul d have Sunday School and Chur ch. We’ d go home, have di nner . We had chor es t o do because you, you had al l t he ani mal s , you know: cow, hor se, chi ckens . And ever yt hi ng we had t o t ake car e of t hat day. And t hen we’ d get r eady and wal k back down f or t he ni ght s er vi ce. And t hen, back home. ” [ 39: 30] Es t he r Jone s : “ Peopl e came f r om ever y di r ect i on. J i mmi e Lee’ s —I guess J i mmi e Lee’ s—I don’ t r emember t oo much about hi s gr andf at her , I guess t hey di d {at t end}. I know hi s gr andf at her on hi s mot her ’ s s i de f or sur e because I t el l you, speaki ng of my gr andf at her , he was a s t r ong, spi r i t ual man. And I r emember j us t on Nor r i s ’ s Run, you’ ve been down over t her e haven’ t you, wher e a l ot of peopl e l i ved? I f someone woul d get s i ck, t hat ’ s what t hey’ d do, wal k over t he mount ai n. Or i f t hey had a hor se, t hey woul d r i de i t and come. My gr andf at her l i ved up near wher e I was bor n. They’ d come af t er hi m t o go pr ay. And he woul d wal k over t hat mount ai n and go over t o Nor r i s ’ s Run f or anybody, any hour of t he ni ght . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ For f ai t h heal i ng?” Es t he r Jone s : “ They j us t want ed hi m, I mean, he woul d come and pr ay. ” 197 Mor gan Cai n: “ So speci al . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ Speci al , ver y speci al . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ You have t o want t he Hol y Ghos t . God gi ve i t t o you. No man gi ves i t t o you. ” [ 50: 19] {Fas t i ng: an i ndi vi dual pract i ce}. [ 55: 51] {Tent Meet i ngs} [ 59: 41] Mor gan Cai n: “ I was goi ng t o ask you i f you’ ve ever been t o a Lut her an ser vi ce i n t hi s ar ea. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ Ot her t han, l et ’ s ee, we went down her e t o t he Long Shop Lut her an one Sunday t o a s er vi ce and t hen I ’ ve been t o s ever al f uner al s at t he Lut her an Chur ch. Some of my f r i ends f r om t he Gol den Year Cl ub or RSVP and al l t hat di ed, you know. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Was i t r eal qui et i n compar i son?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Ver y qui et . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d you speak out of t ur n or s ay ‘ Amen, ’ and have peopl e t ur n ar ound and l ook at you. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ No, no. I , you know, wel l t her e wasn’ t not hi ng f or you t o s ay Amen about , I mean t o get exci t ed about . No. I act l i ke t hat , I l i ke t o, you know, pi ck, because I r espect ot her peopl e’ s bel i ef what ever i t i s . But unl es s somet hi ng hi t s you, i f t her e’ s not hi ng di dn’ t hi t you, so you di dn’ t s ay not hi ng. ” [ 1: 07: 01] Es t he r Jone s : “ I never was t hat much i nt o i t {hi s t ory}. And by t he t i me peopl e got i nt er es t ed i n i t , I had al r eady l os t out on a l ot . ” [ 1: 06: 00] {Es t her get s out and f l i ps t hrough her f ami l y Bi bl e}. [ 1: 12: 30] {Descr i pt i on of t he or i gi nal Bi g Vai n Mi nes where her husband and f at her worked}. [ 1: 19: 58] 198 Mor gan Cai n: “ I hear d you say t hat somet i mes t he ni ght s er vi ces woul d l as t 5 or 6 hour s . And woul d i t be one speaker or woul d i t be peopl e al t er nat i ng?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l i t was , wel l a l ot of i t was s i ngi ng, and pr ayi ng, and pr ai s i ng t he Lor d. Speaki ng and peopl e get t i ng saved, and at t he al t er pr ayi ng. I t was j us t a var i et y, you know, i t wasn’ t nobody, wel l I guess t hey woul d speak, I mean somebody woul d pr each t oo, you know. So somet i mes i t was one o’ cl ock. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wer e you r eady t o go home t hen?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Wel l , uh, yes . I was r eady. And somet i mes you woul d l ay down on t he bench and go t o s l eep. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ As a chi l d?” Es t he r Jone s : “ As a chi l d. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Not as an adul t ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ Yeah, not as an adul t . So I used t o t hi nk you know, of waki ng up and, ‘ Oh me, I got t o wal k al l t he way home. ’ Mos t t i mes we woul dn’ t go t o s l eep; we wer e i nt er es t ed i n what was goi ng on. ” [ 1: 30: 07] Mor gan Cai n: “ What woul d you say i s j us t t he hear t and soul of your communi t y?” Es t he r Jone s : “ The hear t and soul of what we bel i eve i s God t he f at her , God t he son, and God t he Hol y Ghos t . And we bel i eve i n bei ng bapt i zed, emer ged. And we bel i eve i n t he—bei ng spi r i t l ed, whi ch means , you know, some has t he gi f t of heal i ng and t he gi f t of t ongues . And wel l , t he mai n t hi ng i s we go by t he Fr ui t of t he Spi r i t . The Fr ui t s of t he Spi r i t whi ch i s f or gi veness , t r us t , and al l t hose—l ove, al l of t hat goes i n t o make up—and t hat ’ s t he way I woul d summar i ze. I t i s we j us t bel i eve i n—bel i eve i n t he wor d, as i t i s wr i t t en wor d. We j us t bel i eve t hat . ” [ 1: 32: 56] Mor gan Cai n: “ When you wer e young, di d you ever get conf used about t he t ongues . Di d you ever have t o ask your par ent s what i t meant ?” Es t he r Jone s : “ No. I di dn’ t . I don’ t t hi nk so because, you know, i t came so as a gi f t . Cour se I r emember my br ot her , and my mot her t ol d me 199 when he was l i t t l e, and he had a cous i n, you know when t hey wer e l i t t l e. When t hey woul d see each ot her , t hey woul d speak i n t ongues . Because peopl e woul d gr eet , t hey saw t he gr ownups gr eet i ng peopl e, you know. And so t hey—when t hey woul d see each ot her , {she} sai d t hey woul d j us t f al l over . You know t hat was—cause t hat was l i t t l e chi l dr en bel i evi ng what t hey saw t hei r par ent s doi ng. I f you, t hat ’ s har d t o expl ai n, but she t el l me t hey was r eal f unny. Hi s cous i n was s i t t i ng t her e, and t hey say when t hey seen each ot her t hey woul d j us t t hr ow t hei r hands up i n t he ai r and r un, gr eet um, each ot her . Because t hat was chi l dr en. You i mi t at e what peopl e do, you know. Al t hough, but , you know t hey di dn’ t f ul l y under s t and what i t was . ” 200 Jame s She r man—Mar c h 2007 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The l i vi ng r oom of t he home of J ames Sher man i n Wake For es t , Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : James Sher man i s t he as soci at e pas t or at t he Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch. J ames i s t he son of Rober t Sher man and Juani t a Yvonne Sher man. He gr ew up i n a f ami l y of 14 chi l dr en i n Wake For es t . I n hi s yout h he was an accompl i shed basebal l pl ayer . He and hi s wi f e had f i ve chi l dr en. He i s al so a r et i r ed coal mi ner who i s act i ve i n t he Coal Mi ner s Associ at i on i n Pr i ces For k. He i s a bel oved el der i n Wake For es t . Mr . Sher man i s get t i ng over a col d dur i ng t he t i me of t he i nt er vi ew t hat causes hi m t o cough of t en. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. MC: “ Have you l i ved her l ong?” JS: “ Yum?” MC: “ Have you l i ved i n t hi s house l ong?” JS: “ Al l my l i f e. ” MC: “ Real l y?” JS: “ Not her e. When I f i r s t mar r i ed, I l i ved wi t h my gr anddad and my daddy- i n- l aw r i ght over t her e. Then I moved and l i ved over wi t h my aunt f or a whi l e, yeah. Then, ah, I never was much on t r yi ng t o s ave a dol l ar , yeah. Wel l , when I moved over t her e, ol d l ady and her husband, t hey wer e r eal l y el der l y peopl e t hen. I was onl y about f or t y. And, ah, wel l I was younger t han t hat , I mar r i ed about t hi r t y. Anyhow, t hi s ol d l ady sai d, ‘ Son, you ought t o t r y t o s ave a l i t t l e bi t of ever yt hi ng you make. ’ {He i ndi cat ed t hat Nanny Banni s t er sai d t hese t hi ngs at t i me check 36: 00} And I 201 hadn’ t been t ol d t hat bef or e! You know, I j us t bl owed my money. Yeah. And j us t , {had my} f i r s t chi l d, j us t s t ar t r ai s i ng a f ami l y, so I s t ar t ed savi ng a dol l ar , or so, and I bui l d t hi s ol d house—i t ’ s i n need of r epai r now, yeah, r emodel i ng and ever yt hi ng. But af t er she t ol d me t hat , I s t ar t t o s ave a l i t t l e money and I bui l d t hi s house—f or my f ami l y you know. We had f i ve chi l dr en. Fi ve chi l dr en. Yes ma’ am. But , a, we, we wer e happy, you know. ” MC: “ Yeah?” JS: “ Yeah. I r econ t her e’ s an ol d sayi ng, mor e you know, mor e r equi r ed of you. So, {l aughi ng}. But i t s t i l l —you can be happy and gl ad, you know, i f you know somet hi ng, use i t , use i t , what cha got , t hat ’ s r i ght . Mmhumn. You know, I ’ ze j us t t hi nki ng, I don’ t have a l ot of i nf or mat i on on t he chur ches , onl y wher e I began, yeah. And t he communi t y, I shoul d of had a l ot mor e i nf or mat i on, but unf or t unat el y my mot her i n l aw, not my mot her , s t epmot her —my dad mar r i ed t wi ce and uh, hi s uh, hi s wi f e, hi s l as t wi f e was Es t er ’ s mot her . ” MC: “ Ok. ” JS: “ My dad mar r i ed Es t her ’ s mot her , and so t hey l i ved up uh, i n t he McCoy ar ea l i ke out t her e, yes ma’ am. And he di ed, he l i ved, he di dn’ t l i ve but a coupl e year s af t er she di d. He di ed wi t h somet hi ng l i ke {uncl ear} i n t he hospi t al . Anyhow, he, t hey had a l ot of i nf or mat i on. Es t her ’ s pr obabl y s t i l l got i t cause her mot her was one of t he ol des t ci t i zens of t hi s communi t y, you know. I never di d get any i nf or mat i on l i ke t hat . Now I had a br ot her l i ved up her e, Oscar , you mi ght of hear d of hi m. ” MC: “ I ’ ve hear d peopl e t al k hi ghl y of hi m. ” JS: “ Mmhumn. He di ed not about , l i t t l e over a year ago; her e ago t hi s pas t Thanksgi vi ng. And he col l ect a l ot of i nf or mat i on because he was j us t t hat t ype of a f el l ow, you know. He woul d get i nf or mat i on, r ecor d i t . He had sever al t hi ngs wr i t t en about t he knowl edge of t he communi t y, yeah. But I never di d seek t hat , uh. Wel l I n f act , wel l hones t l y, I was away f or about ni ne year s , di f f er ent t i mes , you know: 3 year s at a t i me. I was away f r om home her e, out of t he communi t y, so I mi s sed a l ot . Had a chance t o get educat i on and I di dn’ t . I di dn’ t do i t , cause my mom and my daddy wer e r eal —t hey wer e good wor ker s , pr ovi ded good f or us , as bes t t hey coul d at t hat t i me. And uh, but t hey wer e al ways i n need of hel p. They coul d al ways use hel p. So al l t hr ee, wel l t wo of t he t i mes , I was away f or 6 202 year s . I woul d hel p suppor t t hem you know, but yeah. They di dn’ t have t he knowl edge t o s ay, ‘ J ames , go ahead a s ave a dol l ar or t wo, ’ you know, ‘ put i t —’ cause, you know, i t ’ s s i mpl e i f you pr act i ce, i f you s t ar t out r i ght , yeah. So anyhow, I been happy, you know. And you, get by r eal wel l . ” {Cont i nues by descr i bi ng hi s f ami l y, and ol des t daught er Jes se}. [ 4: 51] JS: “ Peopl e my age had a gr eat oppor t uni t y t o go t o s chool . . . di dn’ t t al k advant age. . . . ” [ 5: 20] JS: “ Thi s has been a good communi t y, I ’ d s ay t hat much. Good f r i endl y communi t y. The r aces hadn’ t had no pr obl ems her e at al l . None at al l . Had t hat r espect f or each ot her you know. And we gr ew up, and chi l dr en mar r i ed of f , j us t mor e so Bl acks mar r i ed t he Bl acks , whi ch I t hi nk i s good i f you don’ t have a f ul l knowl edge and under s t andi ng of t hat par t of l i f e you know. ” [ 7: 05] MC: “ Do you mi nd i f I j us t ask you some ques t i ons about gr owi ng up ar ound her e? JS: “ Sur e don’ t ” MC: “ So you sai d you wer e bor n and r ai sed i n Wake For es t ?” JS: “ Mmhumn. Daddy and t hem was Rober t Howar d Sher man and my mot her ’ s name was Juani t a Yvonne Page. ” MC: “ Wer e t hey f r om Wake For es t al so?” JS: “ I ’ m not cer t ai n, but I bel i eve her f ami l y, her mot her was r ai sed i n New Yor k and t hey—she had a f ami l y and t hey moved her e f or some pur pose. I r econ t hat when she mar r i ed, her husband and t hey moved i n t hi s ar ea. Now I di dn’ t know her husband—my gr andmot her ’ s husband. Because he went away t o wor k i n t he coal mi nes ; he was ki l l ed i n t he coal mi nes and I can’ t t hi nk of t he name of t hat pl ace now, back i n t hat Beckl ey, Wes t Vi r gi ni a, back i n t hat ar ea. He was my gr anddaddy on hi s s i de. Now my f at her ’ s gr anddaddy, I knew hi m, Howar d Sher man. ” MC: “ Okay. I ’ ve hear d t hat name—” JS: “ Yeah Howar d Sher man my, t hat was my gr anddaddy. And my, my daddy’ s name was Rober t Hous t on. That was my daddy’ s name, Rober t Hous t on was my f at her . ” 203 [ 8: 18] JS: “ Ther e’ s an ol d bui l di ng r i ght t her e, OLD bui l di ng r i ght above t he chur ch, you may have not i ced i t wi t h a r us t y t op and al l . ” MC: “ Ri ght . I ’ ve not i ced i t bef or e. ” JS: “ That was my gr andmot her ’ s home {Laura Eaves Page}. She was l i ke a mot her t o t he communi t y, I mean peopl e j us t come t her e you know and t hey’ d j us t s i t ar ound, and t he ki ds woul d get out s i de and t he ol d f ol ks di d on t he por ch and i ns i de t he house. Yeah, i t was j us t so har mony back, back i n t he ear l y days , t hat ’ s r i ght , t hat ’ s r i ght . Peopl e hadn’ t got t en so wi l d as t hey have. {Laught er f ol l owed by coughi ng}. [ 9: 00] JS: “ You come by, so you ask al l t he ques t i ons you have and I can do my bes t t o answer um. ” MC: “ Okay. So di d your f ami l y at t end t he Bapt i s t —” JS: “ They mos t l y at t ended t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. I t was an ol d Bapt i s t chur ch, not t he one wher e I go t o now, di r ect l y down bel ow wher e t hat l i t t l e house i s r i ght bel ow t he chur ch. The ol d Bapt i s t chur ch f oundat i on i s r i ght i n t her e. I t bur nt down. ” MC: “ Ri ght . ” JS: “ Yeah. ” MC: “ Your par ent s wer e t her e bef or e i t bur nt down?” JS: “ They wer e t her e bef or e i t bur nt down, yeah. They bui l t a l i t t l e Hol l - t hey cal l ed a Pent ecos t al Chur ch, l i t t l e Hol i nes s chur ch, wher e t hey l ear n mor e about , l ear n mor e about s anct i f i cat i on you know. And uh, cour se you, we don’ t , don’ t any of us know ever yt hi ng, we don’ t know, a l ot of what we know now, we di dn’ t know when we was a f ew year s back. So t hat ’ s t he way i t i s i n chur ch wor k, you know, yeah. Li ke ol d chur ch member s , and new chur ch member s . Can’ t expect someone t o get i n chur ch t oday and know t he do’ s and don’ t s , you know, t he r ul es and r egul at i ons of t he chur ch yeah. When I was young, I woul d at t end on occas i on, wel l I never di d go t o t he {or i gi nal } Bapt i s t chur ch, cause I wasn’ t ol d enough—r eal l y di dn’ t know about i t . I di dn’ t know when t he chur ch bur nt down. I di dn’ t know act ual l y when t hey bui l t t he new chur ch out t her e. But so, I went , went t o 204 what we cal l ed Sunday School , t hat ’ s when I s t ar t ed at t hi s l i t t l e chur ch r i ght bes i de t he r oad over her e. ” MC: “ The Pent ecos t al chur ch?” JS: “ Yeah, you know t he whi t e boar ded chur ch?” MC: “ Yeah. The one t hat ’ s no l onger r unni ng?” JS: “ Mmhumn. I t was a gent l emen, t wo year s ago car r yi ng ser vi ces on t her e, whi t e gent l emen car r yi ng ser vi ces on t her e Fr i day ni ght s , yeah, on Fr i day ni ght s . And uh, t he gr oup of Bl ack peopl e t hat used t o at t end t her e, t hey had t hi s chur ch bui l t over her e. I at t ended t hi s chur ch some, never di d, wel l I at t ended t he Bapt i s t Chur ch wher e i t i s now some bef or e I j oi ned t her e, but you know. ” MC: “ Yeah” JS: {Cough} “ I ’ ve been t o s ever al , wel l , t wo or t hr ee di f f er ent movement s {ref er r i ng t o di f f erent churches} and I , you don’ t , we j us t don’ t get ever yt hi ng, I mean we can’ t get t oo at ease i n one pl ace when i t ’ s a wor l dwi de t hi ng, you know what I mean, t hat ’ s r i ght . So we got t o, we got t o l eave our sel ves open t o be hel p t o wher ever we can. {Mr. Sherman i s r ef er r i ng t o not bei ng t oo comf or t abl e or s et i n one church when Chr i s t i ani t y i s a wor l dwi de, col l ect i ve f el l owshi p t hat can l ead us t o di f f erent churches and areas f or a di ver s i t y i n worshi p and f el l owshi p}. [ 11: 52] JS: “ I l i ke, I l i ke t he i dea of bei ng abl e t o f el l owshi p, f r i endshi p wi t h al l t he peopl e, you know. ” [ 12: 38] JS: “ I went f r om t he Pent ecos t al chur ch, I went t o Wor l dwi de Chur ch of God, t hen I went f r om t her e t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch over her e i n Radf or d, and I at t ended chur ch t her e f or about f our year s . I ’ ve been over her e at t he Bapt i s t chur ch about 2- 3 year s now. Yeah, over at t he Bapt i s t Chur ch, yeah. ” [ 14: 40] JS: “ I bel i eve you can spend t oo much t i me i n chur ch, and not enough t i me i n t he ot her par t , t hat ’ s r i ght , t hat ’ s r i ght . You’ ve got t o have some t i me f or r eal down t o ear t h bus i nes s , got t o have t i me f or f ami l y, got t o have t i me f or your f r i ends and al l t hat you know, so, and al l t he f r i ends we have i s not i n chur ch. We have some f r i ends j us t l i ke we ar e out s i de you know what I mean. So I spend a l ot of t i me wi t h peopl e. ” [ 15: 27] 205 {James Sherman’ s work exper i ences : Worked i n t he l ocal mi nes bef ore j oi ni ng servi ce i n 1943. He was marr i ed i n 1946. Af t er s ervi ce, i n 1946, he worked i n t he mi nes f or anot her 9 years . He got t i r ed of col d mi ni ng about t he same t i me t he mi ne cl osed down. Worked at t he Radf ord Arsenal f or 3 years . Hi s brot her Oscar t ol d hi m t o j oi n sal t f i el d. James t hought hi s wages were f i ne wi t hout movi ng j obs . Al l hi s brot her s went i n t he sal t mi nes . Hi s brot her Oscar “ got a hol d of money, ” so James admi red hi m}. [ 25: 12] JS: “ Ther e wer e caut i ous about speaki ng about what br ought about t he spl i t or what ever i t was you know. I t was evi dent i al l y over doct r i ne, t he Bi bl e yeah. Ai n’ t t he mat t er t hat much, cause t hey al l s t i l l wor ked t oget her her e t he communi t y you know. Ther e woul d be no har d f eel i ng bet ween each ot her you know, anger or no car r yi ng on. ” MC: “ I t was s t i l l a sor e subj ect ?” JS: “ Yeah, i t was sor e subj ect , yes s i r e, t hat ’ s i t . But my daddy never ment i oned i t , mama never ment i oned i t . Daddy al ways t ol d me t hat ah, he di dn’ t cr i t i ci ze no one chur ch, no one mi ni s t er . They’ s j us t a l ot mor e t hat ’ s got t o be t aught f r om t he Bi bl e, whi ch i t i s , t he Bi bl e’ s a bi g subj ect , you know. Makes you r eal i ze t hat we j us t don’ t know. The l i t t l e bi t t hat we know i s j us t a pi ece of what ’ s i n t hat whol e, whol e Bi bl e. ” [ 27: 10] {James ’ r easons f or not eat i ng pork}. [ 35: 00] {James descr i bed hi s wi f e Mar i e keepi ng house: how she worked so hard and keep everyt hi ng s t rai ght i n t he house}. [ 36: 13] “ My wi f e and I , we never had a cr os s wor ds but one t i me, and t hat di dn’ t l as t but a f ew mi nuet s . That ’ s t he t r ut h. I know I anger ed her by goi ng f r om one chur ch t o anot her , but you know, you got t o do what you t hi nk i s r i ght , t hat ’ s t he way i t i s . ” [ 38: 10] “ And you never hear t hem di scuss t hei r r el i gi on l i ke t he spl i t or not hi ng, you never di d hear t hat , t hey di dn’ t do t hat . They j us t , i t ’ s t hat oneness of t hi s communi t y. I ’ d s ay you know t hat t hey r espect ed each ot her l i ke t hat . And we, we—year s ago, ah i f you wer e t o come t o t hi s , you don’ t have t o become r egul ar , unl es s you f eel you want t o hear somet hi ng or cont r i but e somet hi ng. ” [ 40: 26] MC: “ Di d your par ent s ever t al k t o you about Kent l and? Di d t hey know much about i t ?” 206 JS: “ Not a l ot , t hey, you know, a l ot of um made t hei r l i vi ng down t her e” MC: Yeah” JS: “ They wer en’ t s l aves , but t hey wor ked t her e. ” MC: “ Af t er t he Ci vi l War ?” JS: “ Yeah. Af t er i t . . . a l ot of peopl e made t hei r l i vel i hood down t her e. ” MC: “ Di d your wi f e go t o one chur ch or t he ot her al l t he t i me?” JS: “ She went t o t he Bapt i s t Chur ch al l t he t i me. I went t o t he Pent ecos t al chur ch. And i t di dn’ t bot her us t hough. Not at al l . No, we never di d—when I s t ar t ed goi ng out t o j us t any chur ch, you know l i ke I ’ d go, t hat di s t ur bed her . She di dn’ t —she t ol d me one t i me, she was cooki ng i n t he t her e, I never wi l l f or get , she sai d, and you know I was wr ong, some t hi ngs you, you l i s t en at , i t ’ s good t o l i s t en at i t , but don’ t t ake a par t i n i t you know what I mean cause she coul d, you got t o hear a whol e l ot of t hi ngs i s wr ong t o know what i s r eal l y r i ght some t i mes , yeah. A l ot of peopl e I f eel sor r y f or t hem t oday, t hey get hooked on t he wr ong t hi ng so deepl y, i t ’ s har d f or t hem t o covenant t hemsel ves . ” [ 43: 30] MC: “ So have a l ot of peopl e moved away, s i nce you wer e younger . ” JS: “ Yes , yes , a l ot of um, Henr y’ s daddy moved away back her e, uncl e Har r y l i ves out of Vi r gi ni a, but hi s s i s t er , aunt who l i ves i n Mar yl and. . . . My br ot her . . . . ” [ 45: 36] MC: “ Does i t bot her you, al l t hese peopl e movi ng out of her e, does i t concer n you about t he f ut ur e of Wake For es t ?” JS: “ Real l y not , because we have a l ot of good Whi t e f r i ends movi ng i n you know and I t hi nk we sor t of need t hat r i ght , r i ght r el at i onshi p, you know. ” MC: “ Was i t l i ke t hat when you wer e gr owi ng up? JS: “ No, i t was j us t al l Bl acks r i ght t hr ough her e. We had a whi t e f ami l y l i ved way over t her e. And a whi t e f ami l y l i ved r i ght bel ow me down her e. ” [ 48: 15] 207 JS: “ I t ’ s been t he bes t r el at i onshi p ar ound her e. We never di d have no pr obl ems , you know. Wel l no smal l communi t i es har dl y have bi g pr obl ems . Wel l I gi ve t he cr edi t t o t he Chr i s t i an peopl e of t hi s communi t y—but not me, but t he ol der ones—t o t he r el at i onshi p we have. ” [ 55: 35] MC: “ I was goi ng t o ask you i f you had someone who was sor t of a spi r i t ual her o i n your l i f e gr owi ng up ar ound Wake For es t . ” JS: “ Yeah, my aunt , Aunt Li zzi e Eaves . She was a Sher man, mar r i ed an Eaves , my daddy’ s s i s t er : Chr i s t i an r ol e model , she’ s a f i ne women, l i ved a good l i f e, yeah. . . She al ways had a l i t t l e somet hi ng t o gi ve, l end a hel pi ng hand, you know, same wi t h my gr andmot her . Yeah, t hose t wo was , was a bet t er r ol e model t han—yeah. ” [ 58: 15] MC: “ Rever end Spr aggi ns came and s t ar t i ng r ever eni ng?” JS: “ Oh yes , yes . He, he, ki nd of caught my eye and spi r i t r i ght of f cause he come her e. He got t o cl eani n’ up t he chur ch yar d. Wadn’ t no member shi p or not hi ng. I , I was wor ki ng at t he ar senal j us t par t t i me, I ’ d r et i r ed, but I was wor ki ng par t t i me over at t he ar senal . I ’ d come by t her e a t i me or t wo and he’ d be t her e wor ki ng. He was wor ki ng up near t he r oad wher e you t ur n comi ng i n t her e by Wake For es t Road. So I s ai d, ‘ I ’ ve got t o get acquai nt ed wi t h t hi s man her e. ’ Rever end Spr aggi ns s ai d: ‘ Yeah I f eel l i ke I ’ l l be her e at t hi s chur ch. ’ I hadn’ t t al ked t o hi m about who he’ d t al ked t o, or Br ot her Br own. He sai d, ‘ Wel l Br ot her Sher man, you know al l peopl e need i s someone t o l ove um. ’ So t hat s t uck wi t h me r i ght f r om t he begi nni ng, you know, yeah. Someone who had a car i ng f or peopl e. I f you car e f or peopl e, you have t o bear et h what ever t hey l ack f or unt i l you can get wi t h um, you know what I mean?” MC: “ I never t hought about i t . JS: “ Ri ght , yeah. I f you, we shun al l t he t hi ngs we don’ t . . . . JS: “ A l ot of t i mes we don’ t know what anot her per son’ s pur pose i s f or doi ng what t hey do, t hat ’ s r i ght , t hat ’ s t r ue, r i ght . He convi nced me t hat he had a pur pose f or comi ng and wor ki ng, you know, concer n f or t he wel f ar e of t he peopl e, and I j us t t ook r i ght on t o l i ki ng hi m and hi s s er vant shi p out t her e. [ 101: 30] JS: “ I don’ t have, j us t l i ke I t ol d you over t he t el ephone, I don’ t have a l ot of t hi ngs down on r ecor d or anyt hi ng, not hi ng l i ke t hat , you know. 208 I ’ d l i ke t o have. Now, Oscar evi dent i al l y had a l ot of i nf or mat i on. . . . i nf or mat i on he col l ect ed, and he wr ot e a f ew i t ems . . . . ” 209 Eyvonne Spe nc e r —Jul y 2, 2007 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The Bur ger Ki ng pat i o t abl e i n Fai r l awn, Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : At t he t i me of t he i nt er vi ew, Eyvonne Spencer i s t he Pas t or —t hey cal l her El der —at t he New Wake For es t Uni t ed Hol i nes s Chur ch. She was bor n i n Pul aski , Vi r gi ni a on Mar ch 8, 1937. She’ s been a member at t hat chur ch f or al mos t 30 year s , but has s er ved as pas t or f or t he l as t t wo year s . She i s t he wi f e of Rever end Hous t on Spencer . Bef or e t he i nt er vi ew begi ns , she i s t ol d t hat some ques t i ons wi l l be asked, but t hat she shoul d f eel f r ee t o expound on any chur ch- r el at ed i s sues t hat comes t o her mi nd wi t hout wai t i ng f or ques t i ons . Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me checks i ndi cat ed] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. ES: “ Um, I s ay, i n about 1978 I had got t en s i ck, and I went i nt o t he hospi t al and t he pas t or over t her e {“ t here” i s Wake Fores t Pent ecos t al Church}, El der Wi l l i am Beamer , came t o t he hospi t al and uh, vi s i t ed me. And I l i ve i n Pul aski and none of t he member s i n Pul aski had came t o t he hospi t al —t he pas t or s , none of t he member s at al l . And when, uh, El der Beamer came, whi ch i s a bi shop now, hi m and hi s wi f e, i t was so f ami l y or i ent ed or what ever . They wer e, uh, such beaut i f ul peopl e. And I s ai d, ‘ I want t o bel ong t o t hei r chur ch, ’ and t hi s was i n ‘ 78. And I r es i gned f r om t he chur ch t hat I was goi ng t o and a—because t hey was t hi ngs goi ng on t her e al so t hat a, I di dn’ t l i ke. But t he pas t or was beaut i f ul {ref er r i ng t o t he pas t or at Wake Fores t Pent ecos t al Hol i nes s agai n} and I deci ded t o go j oi n Wake For es t {Hol i nes s} Chur ch and I went over i n ’ 78, and asked hi m coul d I j oi n hi s chur ch. And he sai d, ‘ Yeah, ’ and I became a member . Af t er becomi ng a member I was uh, t he secr et ar y, f i nanci al s ecr et ar y, I was a choi r member , t he pr es i dent of j uni or mi s s i on depar t ment —t hi s was over t i me—pr es i dent of j uni or mi s s i on depar t ment , uh, usher , j us t a r ound about , a l i t t l e bi t of , go f or ever yt hi ng, you know. And a, but i t was a f ami l y or i ent ed chur ch and when you went i n, you coul d j us t f eel t hat i s was l i ke t he ear t h, l ove oozed out of t he wal l s . {She l aughs}. 210 But we wer e i n t he l i t t l e t i ny chur ch, r i ght down t her e when I f i r s t went over t her e {The or i gi nal Hol i nes s Church}. Fi nal l y God had gi ven El der Beamer t he vi s i on t o bui l d a bi gger chur ch cause we wer e over f l owi ng. We had col l ege s t udent s at t he t i me, comi ng t o t he chur ch and, um, one of t he member s t hat had l ef t t own and moved t o Bal t i mor e gave hi m t he l and pr act i cal l y t hat we got t he chur ch on now. And t he member s got t oget her , we had 13 member s . We bor r owed t he money; some of t he col l ege s t udent s bui l t t he pl ans—dr ew t he pl ans f or t he chur ch. Um, t hey, ah, t hen col l ege member s got t oget her ; member s got t oget her and t hey bui l d t he f oundat i on of t he chur ch and, uh, i t was r eal l y a communi t y t hi ng. Ever ybody got t oget her and t hey wor ked t oget her and we bui l t t he chur ch. And wi t h al l t he money we bor r —we bor r owed, we pl edged and pai d al l t he money back. The chur ch was pai d f or , i n f ul l , i n s i x year s . And t hat was wor ki ng t oget her and ever yt hi ng. And f i nal l y about 4 year s ago—and I was a member t her e when I mar r i ed El der Hous t on Spencer . And he had a chur ch i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a, so I l ef t t her e and went wi t h hi m t o Wes t Vi r gi ni a t o chur ch. And I l i ked i t , but I di dn’ t l i ke i t as wel l as I di d {l aughi ng}. The peopl e, t he peopl e wer e good. The peopl e wer e beaut i f ul , and I ’ m a peopl e per son so i t di dn’ t have a har dshi p wi t h me. But t hen i n ‘ 90—I guess i t was about ‘ 98, I was cal l ed t o t he mi ni s t r y whi l e we wer e s t i l l i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a. And my husband, uh, gave up t he chur ch i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a and we came back t o Wake For es t . And when we came back t o Wake For es t we wor shi ped wi t h, uh, El der Beamer . And I t hi nk by t hi s t i me he was a Bi shop. They had r ai sed hi m t o t he Bi shopshi p. And we wor ked t her e wi t h hi m, and I t ook over t he dut i es t hat I had t her e bef or e, ot her t han f i nanci al s ecr et ar y. And t hey al r eady had one, and I don’ t l i ke t o go and t ake j obs . I ’ l l do anyt hi ng I can f i nd t o do. But I became choi r member and, ah, wor ked wi t h t he pas t or ’ s ai d and I wor ked wi t h al l depar t ment s i n t he chur ch and wor ked wi t h t he pas t or . And, ah, I wor ked wi t h hi m f or a whi l e as as soci at e mi ni s t er , and t hen i n about f our year s ago he deci ded t hat he was not wel l . So he want ed t o get cl oser t o home, so he moved back. The chur ch i n Nor t h Car ol i na di dn’ t have a mi ni s t er , and t hey want ed hi m, and t hat ’ s wher e he was f r om. So he moved back t o Nor t h Car ol i na t o be t he mi ni s t er t her e and he asked me, woul d I t ake Wake For es t , and s i nce my husband was a mi ni s t er and an ol der mi ni s t er , I s ai d, ‘ No, l et my husband have i t and I ’ d wor k wi t h hi m. ’ So my husband t ook over mi ni s t er i ng t her e and he wor ked t her e f or a year . Then t hey got anot her mi ni s t er t hat wor ked f or a year and ah, di dn’ t wor k out t oo wel l . And t hen t hey asked me i f I ’ d t ake t he chur ch and I t ol d t hem I ’ d onl y t ake t he chur ch i f I got 100% vot e, not 99, not 96, but onl y 100% vot e. And I got 100% vot e, so I t ook t he chur ch and I ’ ve been pas t or now f or t wo year s . Love wor ki ng wi t h t he peopl e, make a l ot of 211 mi s t akes , but I got Es t her Jones {l aughi ng}. And as I s ai d, she’ s t he monar ch. She keeps me on t he r i ght , on t he s t r ai ght and nar r ow. When I make a mi s t ake, I t el l um i f I ever do somet hi ng or make a mi s t ake, don’ t hes i t at e t o cor r ect me. You know, cause I know I don’ t know i t al l , and I ’ m s t i l l l ear ni ng and I —we wor k beaut i f ul l y t oget her . And I l ove t he chur ch and I l ove t he peopl e and i t ’ s al mos t l i ke j us t bei ng a f ami l y. I mean, t her e’ s deci s i ons t o make and, I mean, you know, i f you’ r e t he pas t or you’ r e supposed t o be t he head, but I f eel l i ke, uh, wor ki ng t oget her , you’ r e a bet t er head i f you can wor k wi t h t he peopl e t han i f you t r y t o s epar at e your sel ves f r om t he peopl e. So I wor k wi t h t he peopl e, t he peopl e wor k wi t h me. We make al l deci s i ons t oget her . I make no deci s i ons t hey don’ t agr ee wi t h and t hey don’ t go out and make deci s i ons t hen come back and t el l me about i t l at er . But we al l wor k t oget her . And we’ r e a t i t he- payi ng chur ch. We’ r e a f ai t h- bel i evi ng chur ch and ah, we got s i x member s , but t hey’ r e s i x beaut i f ul member s and somet i mes we f eel l i ke we’ r e get t i ng r eady t o go under , but t hen we get anot her bur s t of ener gy, and we bounce back. But i t ’ s a beaut i f ul chur ch, and i t ’ s a beaut i f ul peopl e, and i t ’ s a beaut i f ul communi t y. And t hen I ’ ve got my chi l dr en, I got Sean and Chauncey, whi ch I j us t adopt ed. And t hen I got Ter r ance and Jer emi ah whi ch ar e 18- year ol ds , and Ter r ance i s get t i ng r eady t o go i nt o col l ege now. And uh, my husband and I wor k t oget her . We don’ t compet e wi t h one anot her . He—we, I guess we compl i ment one anot her . He hel ps me and I hel p hi m. So, we do good. And t hen I got , as I t el l um somet i mes—l i ke you was t al ki ng about Eul ai l a—t hat t he pas t or ’ s not t he onl y one t hat can br i ng t he wor d. And I f eel l i ke i f you l i s t en t o what t he peopl e have t o s ay, somet i mes you l ear n. And I ’ m not above l ear ni ng. And I ’ ve f ound t hat I l i s t en t o Mot her Jones , I ’ ve l i s t ened t o Dar r en, and I ’ ve l i s t ened t o Eul ai l a, and my husband and t hey al l , t o me, ar e qual i f i ed. They’ r e not mi ni s t er s , but i n t hei r own r i ght , I t hi nk t hey ar e. We’ r e al l mi ni s t er s t o a cer t ai n ext ent . And I , I j us t l i ke i t . I l ove bei ng pas t or . I di dn’ t t hi nk I coul d make i t {l aughi ng} and I , I l i ke t he r ol e. I l i ke t he r ol e. And I ’ m r espect ed i n t he communi t y I t hi nk. And I ’ m r espect ed i n t he chur ch. And t he communi t y wor ks wel l . We um, i f we have, um, a f uner al or have somet hi ng i n t he communi t y wher e we al l have t o pul l t oget her , i f I have a f uner al at my chur ch I can f eel f r ee t o ask someone t o cal l al l t he peopl e i n t he communi t y and t el l t hem t hat we’ r e f eedi ng t he f ami l y and we need t hi s , t hi s , and t hi s and nobody ever s ays , ‘ We’ r e not goi ng t o hel p. ’ They come t oget her . They come i nt o t he ki t chen; t hey wor k j us t l i ke i t ’ s t hei r chur ch. And uh, we wor k good t oget her , bot h chur ches : Rever end Spr aggi ns and hi s peopl e and my peopl e. We j us t , we di f f er ent ones : one’ s Bapt i s t and one’ s Uni t ed Hol i nes s , but we j us t wor ki ng under 212 t he same God. So we, wor k ver y good t oget her . Ver y good t oget her . Ver y good t oget her . ” MC: “ Now t he Rever end Beamer , t hat was who was t her e when you came?” ES: “ Yeah. Awesome man. Yes . MC: “ St i l l l i vi ng?” ES: “ He’ s s t i l l l i vi ng. Awesome man. He’ s not wel l but he’ s s t i l l l i vi ng. Power f ul man. ” MC: “ Was he t he r ever end t her e f or a good whi l e bef or e you came—” ES: “ 32 year s . ” MC: “ 32 year s?” ES: “ Yeah. 32 year s . He r ai sed hi s chi l dr en t her e at t he chur ch. And t hey came f r om Nor t h Car ol i na. And t hey had hi s wi f e, Gay, and hi s chi l dr en: Fr edr i ck, Dar yl , Fr i eda, and Dani el . And Dani el was our speci al l i t t l e boy. He was a speci al chi l d and he’ s 30—mi ght be 38 now. And he’ s speci al . Ever ybody l oved Dani el , but ever yone l oved t he Beamer s . And t hey wer e beaut i f ul peopl e. And he pr eaches f or me somet i mes and I pr each f or hi m somet i mes . And hi s son i s a mi ni s t er i n Fr i es and I pr each f or hi s son and hi s son pr eaches f or me, so we j us t , we keep i t i n t he f ami l y. And uh, i t ’ s a beaut i f ul f ami l y t o be i n, and we’ ve enj oyed havi ng you. Can I put t hat i n t her e {l aughi ng}? MC: “ Wel l I ’ ve enj oyed bei ng t her e. I r eal l y have. ” ES: “ We l ook f or war d t o havi ng you ever y Sunday t hat you come. I t ’ s t hat , l i ke you br i ght en up t he pl ace. I t ’ s beaut i f ul . ” MC: “ Wel l i t ’ s a compl et el y di f f er ent s t yl e t han my chur ch, but I l ove i t . I get t he songs i n my head, l i ke “ Sol di er I n Hi s Ar my, ” and I s i ng i t al l day {l aughi ng}. So mot i vat i ng. ” ES: “ Wel l , we l ove t o s i ng and Si s t er Er nes t i ne, when she’ s t her e, she enhances t he ser vi ce wi t h t he pi ano pl ayi ng. She r eal l y does a beaut i f ul j ob. And I t el l her al l t he t i me, she pl ays l i ke my mot her . She r emi nds me of my mot her when she pl ays t he pi ano, and uh, she’ s a beaut i f ul per son al so. ” 213 MC: “ Has she pl ayed t he whol e t i me you’ ve been t her e?” ES: “ Wel l , ah yeah, she pl ayed, but when chur ch vot ed out El der Par sons , she l ef t wi t h hi m. So she has a {uncl ear}, but she s t i l l wor ks . Al l I have t o do i s cal l her and t el l her I need her f or somet hi ng, and uh, she wi l l be t her e. She does {uncl ear}. She says she l oves me, she says , and I bel i eve her . But she j us t doesn’ t bel ong t her e r i ght now. ” MC: “ That was t he name of t he mi ni s t er who was t her e j us t a year ?” ES: “ Ler oy Par son. Yeah. ” MC: “ Si nce t he t i me you j oi ned t he chur ch i n ‘ 78, have seen a l ot of changes or has ever yt hi ng kept t he same nat ur e?” ES: “ They kept i t t he same nat ur e. Uh, I ’ ve t r i ed t o get t hem mor e out r eachi ng, not t o s ay t hey wer en’ t out r eachi ng, but t o me—as I s ai d, I ’ m a peopl e per son, and I l ove goi ng t o ot her chur ches , and I l ove goi ng t o ot her , I mean, ot her r el i gi ons , you know. Doi ng t hi ngs , you know, wi t h ot her peopl e. And t he chur ch i s get t i ng t o a pl ace wher e t hey do t hi s al so. They go out and t hey do—wel l Es t her —she bel ongs t o ever ybody i n t he communi t y. But t he r es t of t hem wer e bas i cal l y s t ayi ng home or r i ght her e i n my l i t t l e t hi ng, and t hey’ r e out mor e, t hey’ r e doi ng mor e. But t hey haven’ t changed t oo much. Li ke we used t o have, uh, whi ch we had mor e member s at t he t i me, but on Sundays , on t he t hi r d Sundays , we woul d have what we cal l ed Pot l uck Day. And ever y member woul d br i ng a di sh and we’ d al l go down and we’ d eat , and no—nobody woul d know what anybody was br i ngi ng, but nobody br ought t he same t hi ng {l aughi ng}. I t was al ways , i t al ways wor ked wel l t hat we had meat , we had veget abl es , and we had a s t ar ch, we had br ead, des ser t s , and i t wor ked out beaut i f ul . But now t hat we onl y have s i x member s and Eul ai l a’ s husband i s s i ck, so soon as chur ch i s over she usual l y has t o go home. And doesn’ t , nobody. . . i t ’ s nobody but me and Es t her r eal l y, so she goes and I go {“ goes” home af t er church i ns t ead of havi ng pot l uck}. She has t hi ngs t o do on Sunday. And I usual l y s ay, ‘ Wel l I ’ m not goi ng t o cook. ’ So I t ake t he ki ds out , so we go out on Sundays . But i t hasn’ t changed t hat much. I haven’ t s een, I mean, wel l I guess ever yt hi ng gr ows . We gr ow spi r i t ual l y, but t hey haven’ t changed anyt hi ng. They s t i l l beaut i f ul peopl e. And t hey ar e gr at ef ul . Ever ybody i n t he ar ea say t hey l ove t o go t o Wake For es t because you can f eel t he l ove when you go i nt o t he chur ch. And uh, you can, you can wal k i n t he door , and i t ’ s—l ooks l i ke i t ’ s j us t l ove i n t he wal l s , I don’ t know. 214 When we had t he col l ege s t udent s , col l ege s t udent s woul d, we woul d adopt t he col l ege s t udent s . And, l i ke I woul d t ake t hem home and I ’ d f eed um ar ound i n t he di nni ng r oom, l i vi ng r oom, and ki t chen, and t hey’ d be i n t he yar d and I ’ d cook di nner f or al l t hem because t hey wer e s t udent s and t hey di dn’ t have a l ot of money, and t hey di dn’ t get a l ot of home- cooked meal s . So I ’ d t ake t hem maybe on a Sat ur day and i nvi t e um al l over and I ’ d have ki ds f r om wal l t o wal l . Ot her member s woul d t ake t hem i n and di d t hat . I t was beaut i f ul . ” MC: “ Have you seen as l ow an at t endance of about s i x member s , t hen i t go back up s i nce you’ ve been t her e?” ES: “ Ah, wel l somet i mes we have a bur s t . We haven’ t , l i ke one of our member s di ed and t hen someone j oi ned t he chur ch. But we haven’ t —st ar t ed out when I t ook i t , i t had s i x member s . One gi r l , she was a member , but she wasn’ t what you woul d cal l a f ai t hf ul member cause she’ s s i ck a l ot and she’ s s t i l l a member and when she’ s wel l enough, she comes t o chur ch. But I j us t s ay s i x cause I got s i x r egul ar member s . And t hen I ’ ve got t he t wo t hat j us t come when t hey can. But I —hasn’ t anyone r es i gned s i nce I ’ ve been t her e as pas t or . And I ’ ve t aken i n one member s i nce I ’ ve been t her e as pas t or . So, haven’ t l os t anybody {Bot h l aughi ng}. But i t ’ s been good, been good. ” MC: “ Do you know much about t he chur ch hi s t or y? Have you been t ol d s t or i es?” ES: “ Uh, I know t hat t he l i t t l e chur ch, i t was es t abl i shed i nt o t he Uni t ed Hol i nes s Chur ch body i n 19—Sept ember 1937 by Rever end S. A. Mayo, came t hr ough and she es t abl i sh a uni on i n, um, 1937. And f r om t her e t he chur ch gr owed and she was t he pas t or , and t hen t hey had sever al ot her pas t or s . I don’ t know al l of um’ s name. But I know t hat um, Wi l l i am Beamer became t he pas t or 38 year s ago. And he was t he pas t or f or 30- 32 year s , and t hen i t was uh, Rever end {Hous t on} Spencer , El der Par sons , and El der Spencer agai n: mysel f . And ah, but I don’ t t hi nk t hey’ ve had a l ot of pas t or s because I guess usual l y whoever goes t her e, t hey l ove i t and s t ay. They don’ t do a l ot of l eavi ng, but I don’ t know whet her Mot her Mayo was a, I don’ t know i f she was ever t he pas t or t her e, she j us t es t abl i shed t he chur ch. ” [ 6: 21] ES: “ And uh, Mot her Jones—we cal l her Mot her Jones—she coul d t el l you mor e about t he pas t or s because she knows al l of t he hi s t or y {l aughi ng}. She was t her e when. ” 215 MC: “ When, you sai d t hat you had a l ot of peopl e at t he l i t t l e bui l di ng, when y’ al l wer e about t o bui l d, was t he Bapt i s t chur ch down at t hat t i me?” ES: “ I t was , wel l i t was not down, but t hey wer e havi ng chur ch l i ke ever y ot her Sunday. The pas t or t her e t hen was uh, Rever end Gl enn Cobbs , at t he Bapt i s t chur ch, I know t hat much. And t hen af t er he l ef t , t her e was a pas t or , I f or get what hi s name was , he was a young man, and he was t her e ever y ot her Sunday. But t hen i t was down f or about —bef or e Rever end Spr aggi ns came. I guess i t had been down 5 or 6 year s , maybe l onger . And he j us t came t hr ough and saw t he chur ch and r eopened i t and es t abl i shed i t . And t hey wor ked ver y good. They wor ked ver y good t her e. But ah, I t hi nk he, I don’ t know how he managed t o get i n t hi s ar ea r eal l y. Uh, I t hi nk he was l ooki ng f or a house, because he’ s f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a, and uh, he came and saw l i ke t he bal l f i el d t her e. He had—and I t hi nk he even went i n and cl eaned t hat of f . And t hen he saw t he chur ch and went up and cut t he gr as s and cl eaned up ar ound t he chur ch. And got , got —f ound out who was i n char ge of t he chur ch and sai d he want ed t o es t abl i sh a chur ch t her e, r eopen t he chur ch. And t hey wor ked wi t h hi m and r eopened t he chur ch. And he’ s done a wonder f ul j ob s i nce he’ s been t her e. Wonder f ul j ob. And t hey was down t o about 4 or 5 f ami l y member s i n t he chur ch; They was t he onl y t hi ng hol di ng i t t oget her and I t hi nk af t er a whi l e i t got t o t he pl ace t hat t hey coul dn’ t sus t ai n i t , so t hey j us t l et i t go. ” MC: “ You know much about t he ear l y chur ch? When i t was s t i l l one?” ES: “ No. The Bapt i s t Chur ch? No. I don’ t know, I , cause I j us t know Rever end Cobbs was t her e and we’ d go up t her e somet i mes when t hey have pr ogr ams and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . They’ ve al ways wor ked t oget her . I know t hose chur ches . And t hen t hey’ ve got t he whi t e chur ches t her e i n t he ar ea, l i ke t he Communi t y Chur ch on down i n McCoy, and t hey wor k wi t h t hem cause we s i ng down t her e at t hei r , al l t hei r r evi val s . Then t hey got Sent ent i al Chur ch. We s i ng t her e, and t hen t hey got ah al l ar ound. We, we as a gr oup have sang i n j us t about al l of t hem. ” [ 20: 31] MC: “ Now some of t he song t hat y’ al l s i ng and l i ke, f or anoi nt i ng, about ever y Sunday, i s t hat somet hi ng common t o ever y Hol i nes s chur ch, or i s t hat somet hi ng you saw done when you came t o Wake For es t or i s i t j us t somet hi ng—” ES: “ Wel l no, i t ’ s um, we j us t , we don’ t s i ng anyt hi ng or i gi nal . I t ’ s j us t l i ke we get a t ape, f al l i n l ove wi t h i t , and we use i t . We j us t use 216 i t , but i t ’ s a song t hat we s i ng i n our yout h, i n our di s t r i ct choi r and we j us t , we j us t pi cked i t up. ” MC: “ And wi t h some of t he manner i n whi ch you car r y out t he ser vi ce, do you t r y t o do l i ke what has al ways been done t her e when you ar r i ved?” ES: “ No, we ah, we j us t made a pr ogr am out when we came, and we car r y i t t hat way. But i t ’ s , i t ’ s bas i c and not j us t about al l of um, i t ’ s bas i c songs , pr ayer , s cr i pt ur e, devot i on, t es t i mony. And some chur ch member s—a l ot of chur ches have cut out t he t es t i mony par t because a l ot of peopl e do get up and t hey say a l ot of t hi ngs t hat ’ s not per t ai ni ng t o. But I f eel l i ke t he peopl e of Wake For es t have been bl es sed, and we’ r e over come by our t es t i moni es . And I t hi nk t he t es t i mony—t o me—i s t he vi t al par t of t he ser vi ce, and I t hi nk we need t o know t hat somebody come i n and say t hat t he Lor d has t aken me t hr ough al l week l ong. You know: ‘ The Lor d di d t hi s f or me, ’ or somet hi ng. And I t hi nk t hat wi l l hel p someone t hat i s s i t t i ng t her e and t hey goi ng t hr ough somet hi ng and wonder i ng, ‘ Don’ t know how am I goi ng t o make i t ?’ I f somebody get up and t el l , ‘ Wel l I went t hr ough so and so and I got al l t he way t hr ough i t , ’ and t hey say ‘ Um, I ’ m goi ng t hr ough t hat , I can make i t ” you know? So I , we have t es t i mony. A l ot of chur ches don’ t have t es t i mony, but we have t es t i mony. ” MC: “ Was t hat t her e when you came i n ’ 78?” ES: “ Yes , Mmhumn. Yes . I t was t her e and t hen t hey s t opped i t , and I s t ar t ed i t back {l aughi ng}. ” MC: “ Good j ob {l aughi ng}. Now ar e t her e some—cause I ’ ve never been t o many Hol i nes s chur ches , but —so I don’ t know i f some of t he char act er i s t i cs ar e uni que t o Wake For es t or uni que t o Hol i nes s Denomi nat i on. ” ES: “ Hol i nes s denomi nat i on, mos t of t hem. Li ke we have communi on, you know, f i r s t Sunday. Uh, we have Bi bl e chur ch school , t hen al l t he chur ches , mos t of t he chur ches , have t he young peopl e or al l t he peopl e t hat ’ s i n cl as s gi ve a summar y of what was l ear ned i n t he cl as ses . They do t hat ever ywher e. And t hen t hey have t he, t he pr ayer f or t he s i ck. They have, a l ot of t hem l i ke t o have pr ayer f or t he s i ck at t he end of t he ser vi ce. A l ot of t hem l i ke t o have pr ayer f or t he s i ck at t he mi ddl e of t he ser vi ce. I go by what ever t he Lor d say. I f he say, ‘ St op what you’ r e doi ng and l et s have pr ayer , ’ t hat ’ s what I usual l y go by: hi s l eadi ng and gui dance. 217 And i f somebody get s up and say, and r eal l y s ay, ‘ I ’ m s t r es sed out , ’ we’ l l s t op and we’ l l wor k wi t h t hat i ndi vi dual . We j us t , we, we got a pr ogr am t hat we go by, but we’ r e not s et i nt o t he pr ogr am. We can change i t at anyt i me. I t ’ s j us t , pr ogr am i s somet hi ng wr i t t en on a pi ece of paper and we can change i t at wi l l . Li ke Sunday, we j us t , we had qui t e a f ew young peopl e t her e, we j us t di d t he ser vi ce accor di ng t o t he t hi ng, and t hat ’ s t he way I l i ke t o l ead ser vi ce. I don’ t l i ke t o: ‘ We got t o do t hi s at t hi s t i me, and t hi s at t hi s t i me, and t hi s at t hi s t i me. ’ And t hen—I don’ t t hi nk you can car r y out t oo much of a s er vi ce t hat way. And so we change. ” MC: “ Wel l , s ever al chur ches do obvi ous l y {Churches carry out s ervi ce i n a very s t r i ct f ashi on}. ” ES: “ Yeah, t hey do. ” MC: “ But do you t hi nk i t al l ows t he Hol y Spi r i t t o move mor e when i t ’ s a smal l er gr oup of peopl e t hat adj us t t o t hose changes?” ES: “ Yeah, because l i ke at a l ot of chur ches —l i ke we have t ongues , and i t ’ s . . . what ever t he Lor d l eads you t o do, you’ r e f r ee t o do t hat . . . ” To me, s er vi ce i s—you’ ve got t o do t hi ngs at l eas t i n or der , I under s t and t hat , but when t he spi r i t of God i s movi ng, I t hi nk t he peopl e shoul d set back and l et t he spi r i t of God move. And t hen we go f or war d, we do our t hi ng, but we l et hi m do hi s t hi ng f i r s t , because i t ’ s hi s chur ch and we ar e vi s i t or s i n hi s chur ch. So I l i ke t o—what ever t he Hol y Ghos t s ays , we’ r e goi ng t o do i t t hi s way, t hen t hat ’ s t he way we do i t . I ’ ve s t opped ser vi ce somet i mes when t he spi r i t has t ol d me t o t el l um t o go t hi s way, t hat way, t her e and ever ybody go t o a s epar at e ar ea and pr ay, and t hat ’ s what t hey do. And uh, t he, t he ser vi ce, i t al ways ends up t he same way, we al ways end up, we di smi s s at t he same t i me j us t about , and get out . But I don’ t t hi nk you shoul d shor t change t he Hol y Ghos t , when i t comes t o t hat , i n and out of wor shi p. I don’ t t hi nk you shoul d shor t change wor shi p. Wor shi p and pr ai se i s what we’ r e t her e f or . And t he message, and God al ways l eaves r oom f or t he message, so. But I l i ke i t . ” MC: “ Wel l i t , you sai d you got t he songs f r om a t ape, a l ot of t hem. And I know you sai d a l ot of t he char act er i s t i cs ar e pr et t y gener i c f or a Hol i nes s denomi nat i on. Ar e t her e any char act er i s t i cs t hat when you came i n you knew—j us t by vi s i t i ng t he Bapt i s t Chur ch or j us t by bei ng at r evi val —t hat you knew was j us t a Wake For es t char act er i s t i c, somet hi ng uni que t o j us t t he communi t y?” 218 ES: “ Let s s ee. No, um, wel l as I ’ l l s ay, I ’ m a peopl e per son, but i n Wake For es t , we have, t hey had a habi t of gr eet i ng t he peopl e. You know you get up, and ever ybody gr eet s ever ybody. And I l i ke t hi s . A l ot of chur ches , you get up and t hey get up and t hi s one goes t hi s way and t hi s one goes , and nobody gr eet s anybody el se, you know. And I t hought t hat was uni que i n Wake For es t . And a, Danny, as I s ai d Danny’ s a speci al per son. And uh, you coul d come i n chur ch wi t h Danny t her e and t he chur ch woul d—j us t l ook l i ke we wer e at a Funer al and ever ybody i s sol emn and ever ybody i s j us t down i n t he dumps , and Danny woul d s t ar t of f wi t h a song and i t j us t l ooked l i ke t he whol e chur ch woul d j us t go up. You know, i t woul d j us t l ook l i ke i t woul d br i ng l i f e back i nt o t he bui l di ng and t hat —t o me—was uni que. I mean t hey t ook t i me out f or Danny. They di dn’ t s ay t hat , ‘ You ar e speci al and you don’ t know what you’ r e doi ng, ’ or ‘ you’ r e t hi s , ’ and nobody ever s ai d t hat he di dn’ t know what he was doi ng. He di dn’ t under s t and what he was doi ng {t hi s i s somet hi ng t hat no one ever sai d}, ever ybody cent er ed, you know, when Danny was up, you know Danny was bei ng l ed by t he spi r i t . And ever ybody j us t hel ped Danny do what he was doi ng. I t was—i t ’ s beaut i f ul . And uh, he, Danny s t i l l does i t . He goes anywher e and um, he’ l l s t ar t a song. I don’ t car e what ’ s goi ng on, Danny coul d s t ar t a song and j us t l ooked l i ke t he whol e pl ace woul d t ur n on t he l i ght s , as i f he br i ght ens up ever yt hi ng. ” MC: “ Yeah, he s t i l l l i vi ng?” ES: “ Yes . ” MC: “ He vi s i t ?” ES: “ He comes down pr et t y of t en. Not , not as of t en as hi s mot her woul d l i ke t o. Cause she s t i l l l oves Wake For es t , she says , ‘ I s t i l l l ove Wake For es t , but t hi s i s s t i l l my home. ’ But uh, wi t h El der Beamer bei ng s i ck and ever yt hi ng, t hey don’ t dr i ve back and f or t h l i ke t hey used t o f r om Nor t h Car ol i na. ” MC: “ I ’ d l ove t o meet hi m event ual l y. ” ES: “ Wel l he’ s a uni que per son. He’ s a uni que per son. ” MC: “ And he wasn’ t or i gi nal l y f r om Wake For es t ei t her ?” ES: “ No, he—Nor t h Car ol i na. ” [ 29: 37] 219 MC: “ Uh, I usual l y ask peopl e, not t o s ay, ‘ who’ s your f avor i t e, ’ or anyt hi ng, or ‘ who’ s mor e i mpor t ant t o you, ’ cause of t en t i mes i t ’ s someone you di dn’ t even know t oo wel l . But who’ s someone who had a r el i gi ous or j us t r ol e model , her o, i nf l uence on you f r om t he communi t y?” ES: “ Es t her Jones . ” MC: “ Es t er Jones {bot h l aughi ng}. ES: “ I t ’ s s t r ange about Es t her Jones . When I f i r s t went t o chur ch over t her e, I di dn’ t l i ke her . Oh, I di dn’ t l i ke her . I s ai d, ‘ That ’ s got t o be t he meanes t women i n t he wor l d. ’ Jus t di d not l i ke her . And uh, because she says what ’ s on her mi nd. And I l ove t hat about her . Cause I ’ m l i ke t hat , and I l ove peopl e who ar e l i ke t hat . But i t was j us t , I don’ t know, somet hi ng about her . I di d not l i ke t hat l ady, and as I kept goi ng and kept goi ng and got t o meet her per sonal l y, I j us t f el l madl y i n l ove wi t h her and f ound out she i s one of t he mos t uni que—and I t el l ever ybody, i f I had 10 member s i n t he chur ch l i ke her , I woul d never want f or not hi ng. I mean she i s a beaut i f ul per son, and she t el l s you what ’ s on her mi nd, s t i l l does . And I l ove t hat about her . And i f I make a mi s t ake, you know, I t el l her , ‘ you f eel f r ee—’ because she’ s my mot her . I adopt ed her as my mot her . And uh, she, uh, cor r ect s you, and she’ l l t el l you, you know, somet hi ng, you know, and you can l ook i t up and t ake i t t o t he bank because she knows what she’ s t al ki ng about . But i f , I , I woul d l ove t o—she’ s f ai t hf ul . She f i xes communi on. She’ s 89, 83, ei ght y somet hi ng, she’ s ei ght y, on up i n t he age, ei ght y s i x or somet hi ng l i ke t hat . But anyway, she f i xes communi on ever y f i r s t Sunday. She’ s t he f i r s t per son t her e. I t r y my bes t t o l eave my house t o beat her t o chur ch {l aughi ng} and I cannot beat her , I don’ t car e {breaki ng t o l augh}, I don’ t car e whet her or not I can beat her t o t he chur ch, but she’ s t her e and she never s ays , ‘ I don’ t f eel l i ke doi ng t hi s and I don’ t f eel l i ke doi ng t hat . ’ And I not i ce her movement s ar e get t i ng s l ower , and uh, but she never s ays , ‘ I ’ m t oo s i ck t o f i x communi on, and she’ l l cal l me bef or e and she’ l l s ay, “ Ar e we goi ng t o have communi on Sunday? Ar e we goi ng t o do t hi s?’ Because she had communi on on t hi r d Sunday cause I wasn’ t t her e t he second Sunday. And she cal l s and she says , ‘ We di dn’ t have—we had communi on on t hi r d Sunday, we s t i l l goi ng t o have i t on t he f i r s t Sunday?’ And you say, ‘ Yeah, ’ when you get t her e, ever yt hi ng i s dr es sed out , communi on i s f i xed, and she j us t , she’ s my r ol e model . She’ s my r ol e model . I l ove t he l ady. I r espect her hi ghl y and she l oves t he chur ch. She l oves t he peopl e and i f t her e’ s anyt hi ng she can do, she’ l l hel p you. But we cal l her —I cal l her t he monar ch of t he communi t y. ” 220 MC: “ What was i n t he newspaper , t he mat r i ar ch? {Ref er r i ng t o a newspaper ar t i cl e t hat i ncl uded an i nt ervi ew wi t h Reverend Spencer , i n whi ch she ment i ons Es t er Jones as t he “ mat r i arch” }. ES: “ Mat r i ar ch! Yeah, mat r i ar ch of t he communi t y. Yeah, t hat ’ s what I t ol d t he gi r l when she wr ot e t he t hi ng. . . she’ s t he l eader of t he communi t y. ” [ 32: 57] ES: “ And t hen l i ke i n our di s t r i ct chur ch, our chur ch mot her i n t he gener al chur ch: t he bi g chur ch i n Wes t Vi r gi ni a, A, our chur ch mot her di ed. And I went t o t he Bi shop—and t he Bi shop and I get al ong pr et t y wel l —and I went t o hi m and I t ol d hi m, ‘ I know you’ r e l ooki ng f or a mot her —a chur ch mot her . ’ I s ays , and uh, ‘ I know i t ’ s got t o go bef or e a vot e or what ever , ’ I s ays , ‘ But i f you r eal l y want one, ’ I s ai d, ‘ put Es t her Jones down as di s t r i ct mot her of t he Wes t Vi r gi ni a di s t r i ct . ’ And he di d. So she’ s our di s t r i ct mot her now of t he Wes t Vi r gi ni a Di s t r i ct . ” [ 33: 40] ES: “ But t o me she’ s a speci al l ady. And uh, I l i ke her , I l i ke her a l ot {l aughi ng}. ” MC: “ Wel l , l et me back up and ask you: Mot her Mayo, she was t he one who deci ded t o act ual l y make Wake For es t af f i l i at ed wi t h a l ar ger Hol i nes s or gani zat i on?” ES: “ Uh, yeah. She br ought i t . I don’ t know what t hey wer e bef or e t hat . Uh, but she br ought t hem i nt o t he Uni t ed Hol y body. ” MC: “ How does t hat happen?” ES: “ I don’ t know. She uh, es t abl i shed a, what t hey cal l a uni on: mi ni s t er s and deacons uni on. And t he f i r s t one was t her e, so she es t abl i shed i t i n t he Wes t Vi r gi ni a di s t r i ct , i n t he Vi r gi ni a Di s t r i ct . ” [ 35: 03] MC: “ I wonder i f i t was a unani mous deci s i on. ” ES: “ I t hi nk i t was . When she di d i t , I t hi nk i t was . ” MC: “ And was she a Wake For es t Hol i nes s member ?” ES: “ No, she was f r om, I guess when I f i r s t met her —whi ch I woul dn’ t have been, I was bor n i n ‘ 37—she was f r om Roanoke. And she had t wo 221 chur ches . One i n Pul aski , and one i n Dubl i n, and she was pas t or of a chur ch i n Chr i s t i ansbur g at one t i me. ” [ 35: 46] MC: “ Seems l i ke t her e’ s an awf ul amount of r oom f or women i n t he Hol i nes s Chur ches . ” ES: “ Yes . I t i s , t hey hel p t hey women, t hey push t hey women, cause we’ ve even got women bi shops , and t hey never had t hat bef or e. We’ r e now get t i ng bi shops . So t he women i n t he Uni t ed Hol i nes s Chur ch, I t hi nk, move f as t er t han t hey do i n any ot her chur ch. They al l ow t hem t o be pas t or s , t hey al l ow t hem t o be bi shops , t hey al l ow t hem t o hol d of f i ces , you know, hi gh- up of f i ces , you know, t hi ngs i n t he chur ch. ” [ 36: 17] MC: “ Wel l I j us t want ed t o ask you what your opi ni on was about t he f ut ur e of Wake For es t and your chur ch. Not neces sar i l y on at t endance goi ng down, but i t s eems l i ke mor e and mor e of t he l ocal s ’ chi l dr en ar e movi ng away. ” ES: “ That ’ s wi t h anyt hi ng. Even i n Pul aski , I ’ ve got gi r l s t hat gr aduat ed hi gh school i n Pul aski and went t o Ri chmond, went t o Bos t on, and t hey came back t o Ri chmond. But uh, Wake For es t r eal l y has not hi ng t o of f er young peopl e, I mean t hey don’ t have any s t or es , t hey don’ t have anyt hi ng r i ght t her e i n t he communi t y. And I guess al l t he chi l dr en, when t hey do get gr own, t hey do l eave. And i t ’ s cat er ed, i t ’ s goi ng t o t he, i t ’ s onl y ol der peopl e t her e r eal l y. The young, as t hey gr aduat e hi gh school , t hey gone. So one or t wo mi ght move back, uh, but uh, I don’ t know anybody’ s moved back. I can’ t s ay I don’ t s ee a f ut ur e, because i f you can’ t s ee a f ut ur e, t hat means you’ r e goi ng t o gi ve up on ever yt hi ng, so I f eel l i ke t her e’ s , t her e’ s a f ut ur e f or Wake For es t , but t hey’ r e goi ng t o have a new gr owt h of peopl e. Wake For es t i s t he ki nd of communi t y t hat when you get t o a cer t ai n age, you want t o come home. And I t hi nk i f you’ ve ever l i ved i n Wake For es t —t he young peopl e mi ght move away, but I t hi nk when ot her peopl e get a cer t ai n age, t hey want t o come home. And I t hi nk t hey’ l l come back t o Wake For es t . I don’ t s ee i t now or anyt i me soon. ” MC: “ Wel l , Ther e’ s deep r oot ed t r adi t i ons t her e, of f ami l y—” ES: “ Yeah, i t ’ s a l ot of f ami l y t her e, a l ot , a l ot of f ami l y t r adi t i ons . I t ’ s l i ke: Memor i al Day t hey have t he pi g r oas t up on t he hi l l . And t hey’ ve been havi ng t hat —Saxt on, one of t he el der peopl e l i vi ng t her e, Saxt on Gr ade, s t ar t ed t he—she used t o have i t i n her yar d, a cookout . And she woul d al ways have a yar d f ul l of young peopl e. And peopl e t al ked about young peopl e up t her e, t hey doi ng t hi s and t hey doi ng 222 t hat , and uh, nobody wor ked wi t h her . And I di dn’ t go t o t he pi g r oas t . I ’ m j us t not a, I don’ t l i ke out door s t hat much, and especi al l y when i t ’ s hot , so I di dn’ t go. But s i nce she di ed, I s t ar t goi ng t o t he cookout s . Her daught er and chi l dr en keep i t goi ng and t hey have i t ever y Memor i al Day up at t he bal l f i el d t her e as you go i nt o Wake For es t . And i t ’ s usual l y oh, 100, 200 peopl e. They r oas t a pi g, t hat ’ s why i t ’ s cal l ed t he pi g r oas t , and ever ybody br i ngs f ood, and t hey have dr i nks and t hey got t hat gr oup t hat goes up i n t he woods t o t hei r own l i t t l e t hi ng, you know. But i t ’ s a beaut i f ul l i t t l e t hi ng and i t ’ s gr own f r om Saxt on. And so t hat keeps i t i n t he communi t y. And um, peopl e come back f r om out of t own, t o go t o t hat , and i t ’ s al l t o honor Saxt on because she s t ar t ed i t f or t he young peopl e. So i t ’ s l i ke a communi t y—and Sept ember 1st , t he f i r s t Sunday i n Sept ember , t hey have what t hey cal l Communi t y Day. ” MC: “ I ’ ve hear d about t hat , what have you hear d about t hat ?” ES: “ Wel l , s i nce I ’ ve been t her e, t hey have i t ever y Sept ember . And t hey have i t at t he Bapt i s t chur ch or t hey’ l l have i t at our chur ch and um, t he peopl e f r om way f r om home, come home. They al l t ake up f i nances , and t he f i nances t hey t ake up hel p suppor t t he communi t y cemet er y. And t hey keep t he cemet er y cl eaned of f and t hey keep t hi ngs l i ke t hat . And t hen t hey gi ve schol ar shi ps t o t he gr aduat i ng seni or s , and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . I t ’ s ni ce. And i t ’ s a beaut i f ul t i me, and i t ’ s usual l y t he mor ni ng ser vi ce. ” MC: “ Do many of t he chur ch member s who go t o Wake For es t , ar e t hey bur i ed i n t hat cemet er y?” ES: “ Mmhumn. ” MC: “ Do a l ot of peopl e come back t o be bur i ed?” ES: “ Mmhum, yeah, wel l , s i nce I ’ ve been t her e, haven’ t t hat many di ed r eal l y. And t he ones who have di ed t her e i n Wake For es t ar e bur i ed up t her e i n t he cemet er y. Li ke Panny, my member , and mot her Mi l l s , was one of t he member s t hat di ed t her e. They br ought her back f r om Bal t i mor e. ” MC: “ Mot her Mi l l s ?” ES: “ Yeah, t hat ’ s Eul ai l a’ s mot her - i n- l aw. Uh, she came back, she was i n Bal t i mor e when she di ed and she came back and was bur i ed t her e. And, so, a l ot of t hem come back, I guess ones t hat di e away come back. ” 223 [ 41: 29] ES: “ But t hey’ r e a cl ose kni t communi t y. I t ’ s t he ki nd of communi t y you’ d l i ke t o be bor n i nt o. ” MC: “ I know, I t hi nk t hat somet i mes {l aughi ng}. ” ES: “ I ’ d l ove t o have been bor n i n t he communi t y, I was bor n i n Pul aski , wadn’ t a communi t y: was j us t a, a whol e, bi g, ol d di r t y t own. But I l i ke i t . ” MC: “ And t hi s i s your opi ni on onl y, but do you t hi nk because of t he way peopl e ar e movi ng away and t hey mi ght event ual l y want t o move back, but a l ot of t he el der ar e di ei ng, t hat s t or i es ar e i mpor t ant t o get r i ght now?” ES: “ I t hi nk so. Hi s t or y—t o me—we l et hi s t or y di e, especi al l y i n t he Bl ack communi t i es . We don’ t , we don’ t i nvol ve our sel ves i n i t . I don’ t even know my f ami l y hi s t or y, you know. And I t hi nk i t ’ s somet hi ng you shoul d know and car r y because t he young peopl e t hat ’ s comi ng need t o know what Wake For es t gave t o a l ot of peopl e. We’ ve got col l ege ki ds who ar e wher e t hey ar e now, because—t o me—what New Pent ecos t al gave t hem t o go of f , you know. And i f you can gi ve somebody somet hi ng t hat t hey can go of f and you see um succeed i n what t hey doi ng, and even i f t hey don’ t succeed i n what t hey doi ng, t hey go of f and i f t hey come back, t hey say, ‘ I got my s t ar t her e i n Wake For es t , and I di d t hi s and I di d t hat , or I di dn’ t go f ar , but I t r i ed. ’ You know, and i t gi ves t hem somet hi ng t o l ook back on. And wi t hout hi s t or y, you def i ni t el y di e, but hi s t or y keeps us l i vi ng, so I t hi nk hi s t or y i s i mpor t ant . ” MC: “ Wel l t he l as t t hi ng I want you t o t el l me. . . j us t r espond t o t hi s : Chur ch i s t he cent er of communi t y and f ami l y i n Wake For es t . ” ES: “ Uh. To me, chur ch i s i mpor t ant t o a l ot of t hem, so I guess i t i s . They mi ght not come l i ke I t hi nk t hey shoul d, but I t hi nk i f I go t o any of t he homes i n Wake For es t and t el l t hem t hat we’ r e doi ng somet hi ng, t hey wi l l be wi l l i ng t o hel p. So I guess chur ch i s t he cent er of communi t y i n Wake For es t . Bot h chur ches . ” MC: “ Do you t hi nk i t ’ s what hol ds t hem t oget her ?” ES: “ Yes . I t i s def i ni t el y t he gl ue. You know l i ke I s ai d, t hey don’ t at t end l i ke t hey shoul d, but t hey know i t ’ s t her e. And I ’ ve got some t hat come t o chur ch i f t hey have a pr obl em. They’ l l come somet i mes and s t and i n t he door , you know. And I ’ l l s ee t hem, and I ’ l l go and we can 224 t al k. So chur ch i s i mpor t ant t o t hem. And I t hi nk i t ’ s t he gl ue t hat hol ds t hem t oget her . ” MC: “ Do you have anyt hi ng el se you’ d l i ke t o s ay?” ES: “ I wi sh mor e of t hem woul d come. . . . I ’ ve t ol d t hem t hat one of t hese Sunday mor ni ngs I ’ m goi ng t o go out wi t h t he mi cr ophone and I ’ m goi ng t o s t and i n t he t hat bi g f i el d r i ght t her e next t o t he chur ch and we’ r e goi ng t o have chur ch out t her e. I f t hey won’ t go t o chur ch, I ’ m goi ng t o l et chur ch go t o t hem. ” MC: “ Wel l , do i t . ” ES: “ Wel l I am, I t ol d um, one of t hese Sundays we’ r e goi ng t o pul l t he pi ano out , and we’ r e goi ng t o go out wi t h t he mi cr ophone, and j us t be a l oud speaker , and we’ r e goi ng t o have chur ch r i ght out t her e i n t he par ki ng l ot . Up under a bi g t r ee or somet hi ng. Get a t ent and have chur ch r i ght out t her e i n t he par ki ng l ot . . . . Message and al l , songs and al l . We’ r e goi ng t o get Er nes t i ne on t he pi ano and we goi ng t o bel t out t he communi t y. ” 225 Be nz e na Eave s—Mar c h, 2007 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The downs t ai r s wor k t abl e at t he home of Benzena and Henr y Eaves i n Wake For es t , Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : Benzena moved t o Wake For es t af t er mar r yi ng Henr y Eaves , a Wake For es t nat i ve. Benzena and Henr y Eaves have t hr ee daught er s who no l onger l i ve i n Wake For es t . Henr y wor ked br i ef l y i n Nor t her n Vi r gi ni a bef or e movi ng back t o Wake For es t and bui l di ng a house i n t he l at e 1960’ s . Benzena and Henr y cur r ent l y manage a Real Es t at e bus i nes s as a s i de j ob. Benzena was i ns t r ument al i n get t i ng t he Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch r eopened i n 2003. She i s pas s i onat e about Wake For es t hi s t or y and des i r es t o event ual l y wr i t e a book about t he chur ch hi s t or y i n Wake For es t . When she says , “ t he chur ch, ” she wi l l mos t al ways be r ef er enci ng t he Bapt i s t chur ch. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . Mi nor changes f r om t he r ecor ded i nt er vi ew have been made t o t r anscr i pt i on by i nt er vi ewee. [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 0: 58] Be nz e na Eave s : “ The chur ch was cl osed f or , I guess i t was about t hr ee year s . And t hen i t was r eopened. Ther e was a meet i ng bef or e t he chur ch r eopened on Sunday, Sept ember t he 14t h i n 2003. And t her e was a meet i ng hel d {bef or e i t r eopened}, and do you want me t o gi ve you t he names of t he peopl e {t hat was at t hat meet i ng bef or e t he chur ch r eopened? Hal f of t hese peopl e wer e not member s , but came t o s ee what was goi ng t o happen t o t he chur ch, and be suppor t er s . }” Mor gan Cai n: “ Sur e” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Ok. I n Augus t a meet i ng was cal l ed f or t he pur pose of s el ect i ng t r us t ees and t he r es t or at i on of t he f oundat i on of t he chur ch. Pr esent at t hi s meet i ng was Rever end Hi awat ha Spr aggi ns , Car ol yn Spr aggi ns , Wi l l i am Br own, Ann Br own, Rever end Oscar Sher man, Dor ot hy Sher man, Henr y Eaves , Benzena Eaves , Leon Sher man, Ear nes t i ne Sher man, and Br enda Fel der . And pr es i di ng was Deacon Wi l l i am Br own, who at t hat par t i cul ar t i me was t he 226 onl y deacon t hat t he chur ch had, because when t he chur ch cl osed and saved, um—cl osed f or t hr ee year s , uh, Deacon Wi l l i am Br own kept t he l i ght s on. He pai d t he l i ght bi l l out of —on hi s own so t he power woul d r emai n at t he chur ch. Because at t hat t i me, t he chur ch had no pas t or . The onl y member s was Deacon Wi l l i am Br own and hi s mot her , Ul ysses Br own, and she was t he mot her of t he chur ch. And so at t hi s meet i ng Deacon Br own gave t he hi s t or y of t he chur ch and he s t at ed t hat Deacon Fr ank Banni s t er t ol d hi m i f t he chur ch di d not f unct i on as a chur ch, t he l and woul d go back t o t he owner s who made t he donat i on of t he l and on whi ch t he chur ch was bui l t . And t hat l and was gi ven t o bui l d t he chur ch by t he Cowan and t he Kent f ami l y. That ’ s al l t hat was r ecor ded i n our mi nut es . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ So i n t he deed t o t he l and, i t s ays t hat t he chur ch had t o be r unni ng?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yes . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ For t he l and t o be i n posses s i on?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yes . We have a deed s t at i ng t hat and I do have a copy of t he deed i n my f i l es . And i t was s t at i ng t hat i f t he chur ch di d not f unct i on as a chur ch, t hen t he l and woul d go back t o t he owner s who donat ed t he l and and al so i n her e i t t al ks about Ms . Cowan—how Mar gi e Kent , how she was i ns t r ument al i n gi vi ng t he l and t o t he f r eed s l aves t o s t ar t a chur ch, so t hat t hey coul d bui l d a chur ch. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Was t he pr i mar y r eason f or t he chur ch cl os i ng, I guess because t her e wasn’ t a mi ni s t er ?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yeah. The pr esent pas t or who was t her e, he l ef t , he r es i gned. And t her e was onl y t he Br own f ami l y, was t he onl y f ami l y t her e. And t hey t r i ed t o keep t he chur ch goi ng, but s i nce t her e was no pas t or t he chur ch cl osed. See Deacon Br own had a s i s t er , her name was Mar l ene and she pas sed away and t hen t hat l ef t Deacon Br own and hi s mot her , and t hat was pr i mar i l y t he r eason because t her e was no pas t or and ver y f ew member s . And what member s wer e t her e, t hey l ef t , and t hat j us t l ef t t he Br own f ami l y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Had you and Henr y wor shi ped t her e up unt o 2000?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ No, ok, what had happened when I f i r s t moved t o Wake For es t i n 1966, I was a member —I became a member at t he Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch. But I onl y r emai ned t her e f or t wo year s . I l ef t and went 227 t o t he Hol i nes s chur ch. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Her e i n Wake For es t ?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Mmhumn. Yeah. And t hen, uh, when t he chur ch r eopened, I di d not become a member . I t opened i n 2003, I di d not become a member unt i l 2004. Augus t 2004. But Henr y became a member when t hey f i r s t r eopened, because t hey r eopened i n Sept ember , Sept ember 2003. ” [ 6: 54] Be nz e na Eave s : “ At t hat meet i ng, Rever end Hi awat ha Spr aggi ns was i nt r oduced as t he new pas t or . And t he way Rever end Spr aggi ns became pas t or : Rever end Spr aggi ns came f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a and uh, he s t at ed t hat God sent hi m t o Vi r gi ni a t o s t ar t a chur ch. And t he way t hat Henr y and I met Rever end Spr aggi ns : Rever end Spr aggi ns want ed t o bui l d a house, so we owned some pr oper t y because we had s t ar t ed our own r eal es t at e bus i nes s her e i n Wake For es t . We pur chased and we wer e t he onl y ones f i r s t i n Wake For es t t o s t ar t a r eal es t at e bus i nes s . And so we owned 3 acr es of l and on Banni s t er Lane, no, on Br anch. We own 3 acr es of l and on Br anch St . That ’ s r i ght by t he Hol i nes s Chur ch, r i ght behi nd i t . We al so own t hr ee acr es of l and on Banni s t er Lane. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Whi ch i s wher e?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ On t hat way. ” [ 10: 06] Be nz e na Eave s : “ So Rever end Spr aggi ns , someone t ol d hi m, di r ect i ng hi m t o us and he want ed t o pur chase some l and t o bui l d a house. And so we sol d hi m 2 acr es of l and on Br anch St . and he s t at ed t hat he, wel l he was gi ven t he chur ch t hr ough Deacon Wi l l i am Br own. Because when he came t o s ee—t al k t o us about t he pr oper t y, he i nf or med us t hat he was al so a mi ni s t er . So s i nce t he chur ch—and he sai d he was r et i r ed. He was a r et i r ed coal mi ner . So we i nvi t ed hi m t o go t o Coal Mi ner ’ s Day. They had Coal Mi ner ’ s Day out at McCoy, and we i nvi t ed hi m t o go. And t hen, whi l e t her e, I asked hi m—I i nf or med hi m t her e was a chur ch t hat —The Wake For es t Bapt i s t Chur ch—i t was vacant because we di d not have a pas t or . So Rever ed Spr aggi ns and I went t o t he chur ch and we j us t s t ood i n t he yar d and we hel d hands , and we pr ayed and asked God t o, i f i t was hi s wi l l t o, t hat Rever ed Spr aggi ns woul d pas t or t he chur ch. So t hen Rever ed Spr aggi ns s t ar t ed cut t i ng t he gr as s and t r i mmi ng t he t r ees and he wor ked at t he chur ch, no pay. I t was because, i t was as i f God sent hi m t o t ake car e of t hat chur ch. And so peopl e i n t he nei ghbor hood and pas s i ng by woul d not i ce, ‘ Who i s t hi s man t hat ’ s up t her e wor ki ng at t hat chur ch and why was he doi ng 228 al l of t hat wor k?’ And Mot her Br own went t o hi m and asked hi m: ‘ Who sent you up her e? Why ar e you on t hi s chur ch gr ound? You don’ t bel ong up her e. ’ And he t ol d her t hat God sent hi m t o do t hat wor k, and so I went t o Deacon Br own and I t ol d hi m. I s ai d, ‘ Ther e i s a mi ni s t er t hat ’ s up t her e. He’ s been wor ki ng on t hat chur ch and uh, cut t i ng t he gr as s , t r i mmi ng t he t r ees , j us t t aki ng car e of i t . Ther e was even a cr ack i n t he cement and Rever ed Spr aggi ns f i xed i t . ’ So Deacon Br own sai d, ‘ I ’ m goi ng and meet hi m. ’ And so t hey met and Deacon Br own car r i ed hi m i ns i de t he chur ch and j us t showed hi m and t ol d hi m t he hi s t or y of t he chur ch, asked hi m whet her he’ d l i ke t o be t he pas t or . We had never hear d hi m pr each. We di d not know anyt hi ng r eal l y about hi m except t hat he was a r et i r ed coal mi ner , had moved f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a. ” [ 13: 28] Be nz e na Eave s : “ But Deacon Br own had f ai t h t hat t hi s was who God want ed t o pr each, and so t he chur ch was gi ven t o Rever end Hi awat ha Spr aggi ns . And t hen, as I s ai d, we had a meet i ng i n Augus t and deci ded t hat t he chur ch shoul d r eopen Sunday, t he second Sunday i n Sept ember , Sept ember t he 14t h, 2003. And t hen we, and at t hat meet i ng al so, Rever ed Spr aggi ns ’ wi f e, Si s t er Car ol i n Spr aggi ns , and she spoke as a mi ni s t er s ’ wi f e. And she sai d on Mar ch 17t h, 2002: ‘ God cal l ed Rever ed Spr aggi ns i nt o t he mi ni s t r y. ” And she s t at ed t hat she woul d suppor t her husband and wor k wi t h t he chur ch. And t he t r us t ees wer e sel ect ed because as we saw on t he deed, al l of t he f or mer wer e pas sed, had di ed. And so we needed new t r us t ees . And t he t r us t ees s el ect ed wer e: Wi l l i am Br own—. ” {Benzena l ooks f or t he f orm wi t h t he t rus t ee l i s t }. [ 16: 25] Be nz e na Eave s : “ Thi s i s t he or der appoi nt i ng t he chur ch t r us t ees : ‘ Thi s day appear ed The Fi r s t Bapt i s t Chur ch, Wake For es t , Mont gomer y Count y i s a pet i t i on f or t he appoi nt ment of t he t r us t ees : Wi l l i am H. Br own Seni or , Henr y W. Eaves , Ti ny Mar i e Gr i mshaw, Car l i n J . Spr aggi ns , Benzena L. Eaves , al l of Mont gomer y Count y, Vi r gi ni a, as t r us t ees of t he Fi r s t Bapt i s t Chur ch i n Wake For es t . ” [ 17: 19] {Some of t he ear l y concerns and accompl i shment s t hey f aced: No i nsurance on Church, very l i t t l e money i n t he budget , an ar t i cl e i n t he Mont gomery Count y News l et t er promot i ng t he church reopeni ng, s el l i ng candy bars , cal endars , and t aki ng donat i ons t o rai se money f or i nsurance, new roof , new ki t chen, and new s t eps}. [ 19: 58] Be nz e na Eave s : “ {Wi t h a l et t er i n hand} Thi s l et t er went out t o peopl e. Dat ed, Oct ober 12, 2003, and i t was a l et t er l et t i ng peopl e of Wake For es t as wel l as ot her chur ches know t hat Wake For es t had r eopened and t hat we 229 wer e cel ebr at i ng Founder s ’ Day. And we had somet hi ng t hat had, t o my knowl edge, had never happened bef or e: we had t wo br ot her s t o pr each at t he same t i me on our Founder s ’ Day, and t hey wer e Rever end St eve Sher man ( James ) —t hat ’ s wher e you’ r e goi ng t oday—and hi s br ot her Oscar Sher man. They wer e goi ng t o pr each on Founder s ’ Day, November 2, 2003 and bot h br ot her s wer e pr eachi ng, l i ke I s ai d, at t he same t i me. And t he Wake For es t Choi r was goi ng t o s i ng and t hi s was a ki nd of a way f or us t o get f unds f or t he chur ch, f or t he wor k t hat needed t o be done. And al so we want ed t o know s i nce t he chur ch had been r eopened, we gai ned seven new member s . So member s wer e s t ar t i ng t o come i n. ” [ 22: 36] Be nz e na Eave s : “ L. C. Banni s t er , who’ s f at her Deacon Fr ank Banni s t er was one of t he ear l y deacons . And he—how do I want t o put i t ?—he was a gr eat wor ker i n t he chur ch. He was a deacon and was r espons i bl e f or t he upkeep of t he chur ch. ” {i nt er r upt ed by t el ephone cal l }. [ 23: 21] Be nz e na Eave s : “ Fr ank Banni s t er —I ’ m t r yi ng t o t hi nk of t he wor d I ’ m goi ng t o use—he was one of t he ear l y deacons , and I have, al so I have a pi ct ur e of hi m. And he and hi s wi f e, Revel l a, t hey wer e devot ed t o t hat chur ch and t hey wer e i ns t r ument al i n keepi ng t he ear l y chur ch open. So he had a son, Langs t on Banni s t er , who al so i s a mi ni s t er , Rever end Langs t on Banni s t er , but he l i ves i n Tol edo, Ohi o. So when we, he f ound out t hat t he chur ch had r eopened and we had a heat i ng pr obl em, he donat ed t he f unds t o t ake car e of us get t i ng a new heat i ng sys t em. So I j us t want ed you t o put t hat i n t her e because t hat was r eal l y ni ce of hi m t o do t hat . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Does he ever come down her e and vi s i t ?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yes . He comes down. Langs t on Banni s t er pr eached at our chur ch i n 2006. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Oh di d he? Di d he come down f or r evi val s al so?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yes . And he comes down when we have Communi t y Day. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ When i s t hat ? I s i t al r eady schedul ed?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Wake For es t Communi t y Day i s al ways t he f i r s t Sunday i n Sept ember . I t has been i n exi s t ence, Wake For es t Communi t y Day has been i n exi s t ence f or at l eas t 30 year s and what we do, and Rever end James Sher man, he’ s t he pr es i dent of Wake For es t Communi t y Cl ub, we cl ose t he chur ches , and we have chur ch, bot h chur ches get t oget her and we j us t have one ser vi ce, t hen we have a bi g di nner . We r ot at e; we have i t at t he Hol i nes s 230 Chur ch one year , and t hen t he next year we have i t at t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. And we have a commi t t ee who sel ect s who i s t o pr each. I n t he pas t what we’ ve done, we sor t of r ot at e t hat al so, as t o who pr eaches on Communi t y Day. Oscar Sher man was t he vi ce pr es i dent , but he pas sed, so we ar e goi ng t o el ect a new vi ce pr es i dent . Because he di ed i n 2006, so we ar e goi ng t o el ect a new vi ce one. ” [ 28: 15] Be nz e na Eave s : “ As you see, I keep a l ot of i nf or mat i on because one day, I want ed t o s t ar t , I want ed t o wr i t e, and so I keep. ” [ 29: 03] Be nz e na Eave s : “ Let me t el l you what happened wi t h t hat . The day t hat t he chur ch r eopened, P. K. Adams , who, Mar gar et Kent i s hi s Aunt , he came t o my house and pr esent ed t he chur ch wi t h anot her Bi bl e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Does t he r es t of t he chur ch shar e i n your exci t ement about t he chur ch doi ng a pr oj ect ?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ No. I t ’ s l i ke t hey don’ t shar e i n my ent hus i asm. I don’ t know whet her i t ’ s because t hey don’ t s ee t he i mpor t ance of i t , or some peopl e don’ t want t o dwel l on t he pas t . They j us t l ook at t oday. I ’ m r eal l y i nt o hi s t or y. I ’ m r eal l y i nt o t hi s—t hat ’ s why I deci ded t o l ay t he museum. . . {uncl ear }. Mor gan Cai n: “ Do t hey s t i l l enj oy t el l i ng t hei r s t or i es even i f t hey don’ t car e about t he hi s t or y?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ I woul d say yes . ” [ 31: 28] Mor gan Cai n: “ Al l t he ol der member s have di ed out . And see Rever end Spr aggi ns , he and hi s wi f e, t hey’ r e f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a, t hey know not hi ng {about t he her i t age}. Rever ed Sher man, he’ s a member . I t ’ s l i ke, he l i ke t o t el l t he s t or i es and he was bor n and r ai sed her e and he’ s i n hi s 80’ s , and he knows a l ot . And I woul d say t hat he get s exci t ed about i t . ” [ 32: 03] Mor gan Cai n: “ He pr obabl y enj oys t el l i ng t he s t or i es?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ Oh yes . He enj oys t el l i ng t he s t or i es because he was bor n and r ai sed her e. ” [ 32: 13] Mor gan Cai n: “ I ’ m j us t cur i ous i f some peopl e wonder , wel l you under s t and because you l ove hi s t or y. ” 231 Be nz e na Eave s : “ Yeah. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Pr obabl y j us t l i ke I do. But I wonder i f ot her s wonder , you know, why, why does anyone car e, you know, what ’ s t he poi nt i n al l t hat t r oubl e?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ You know act ual l y, no. I t ’ s l i ke, t hat ques t i on hasn’ t come up. But i n obser vi ng what peopl e want t o get i nvol ved i n or t he ques t i ons t hat t hey’ r e aski ng. I t ’ l i ke, even when t hey had t he dedi cat i on of t he s l ave monument , Henr y was ver y upset because j us t ver y f ew came t o t hat f r om Wake For es t . And so i t ’ s l i ke, ‘ We not i nt er es t ed i n t he pas t . ’ But t hen t her e’ s t he ol d l i ke me, and Henr y, and Rever end Sher man, we al l ar e because I j us t f eel l i ke we need t o know. And Henr y j us t expr es ses , l i ke when we had t he Bl ack Hi s t or y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ To t he young ki d?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ To t he young ki ds , he sai d, ‘ You need t o know f r om what you came, what happened i n your communi t y. And so, we want t o l eave t he hi s t or y of what happened i n t he chur ch and al l t hr ee of t he chur ches . And I have been i n al l t hr ee and t hat ’ s what I was bas i ng my wr i t i ng on, cause I have a l ot of i nf or mat i on t hat I have gat her ed. Because when I moved her e i n ‘ 66, l i ke I s ai d, f or t wo year s I went t o t he Bapt i s t . And t hen I l ef t and I went t o t he l i t t l e Hol i nes s and s t ayed t her e unt i l we bui l t t he New Hol i nes s Chur ch. And so I have col l ect ed a l ot and al so seen a l ot , hear d a l ot , and my i nt er es t i s i n al l t hr ee chur ches . [ 34: 48] Be nz e na Eave s : “ And l i ke I s ai d, t hi s i s one of t he Bi bl es and t hi s i s when, goi ng t hr ough, when t he chur ch r eopened, t hey had a ches t i n t he chur ch. And I was l ooki ng t hr ough t her e f or what coul d be—cause I al ways had a vi s i on i n my mi nd t hat I was goi ng t o bui l d a museum t o hol d al l t he ar t i f act s t hat came f r om t he s l aves and t he ear l y chur ch. Because I di dn’ t know what I ’ d f i nd f r om t he s l aves , but I want somet hi ng f r om t hem as wel l as t he ear l y chur ch. And I f ound t hese Bi bl es , and I f eel l i ke t hey came f r om t he ear l y chur ch. Cause t hey ar e ol d and f r agi l e, t hey ar e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Have you been abl e t o f i nd any wr i t i ng i n t hem?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ I was hopi ng I woul d f i nd a name i n her e as t o who t hey bel onged t o. ” [ 42: 14] 232 Be nz e na Eave s : “ They say t hat t he f i r s t chur ch was a l og cabi n, made of l ogs . But i t bur ned and when t hey r ebui l t , t hat ’ s t he or i gi nal one t hat t hey r ebui l t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ I j us t wonder , di d anybody ever have pi ct ur es . Do you have one?” Be nz e na Eave s : “ No. My mot her - i n- l aw used t o t el l me about i t , Henr y’ s mot her . She t ol d me how pr et t y i t was . She pas sed. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ I wonder i f anyone di d sket ches or dr awl i ng. ” Be nz e na Eave s : “ I don’ t know. Aunt Li sa woul d be abl e t o t el l you. We’ r e goi ng t o vi s i t her . And who knows , she may have some. ” 233 Howar d Edgar Eave s & Je an Jone s Eave s —Oc t obe r 14, 2006 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The Di nni ng r oom of Kent l and Pl ant at i on i n Bl acksbur g, Vi r gi ni a i n cel ebr at i on of Kent l and Day: an event sponsor ed annual l y by Vi r gi ni a Tech and t he Appal achi an St udi es Pr ogr am. Not e s : As t he i nt er vi ewees and i nt er vi ewer ent er t he r oom t o i nf or mal l y di scuss t he ear l y Bapt i s t Chur ch i n t he communi t y of Wake For es t , t her e i s t al k about r easons f or t he spl i t t i ng of t he Bapt i s t chur ch i n t he ear l y 1900’ s . Bot h i nt er vi ewees wer e r ai sed i n Wake For es t and shar e t hei r memor i es . J ean at t ended t he Hol i nes s Chur ch gr owi ng up and Howar d at t ended t he Bapt i s t Chur ch. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] { De s c r i pt i on or c l ar i t y of que s t i ons , ans we r s , and phy s i c al r e s pons e s } JE: “ You pr obabl y know mor e about t hat . ” {Di rect ed t oward i nt ervi ewer regardi ng t he reason f or t he spl i t t i ng of t he ear l y Wake Fores t Church} . MC: “ Yeah, I know a pr et t y good amount about i t al r eady, but I —” JE: “ Yeah, I ’ d be i nt er es t ed t o know, ot her t han bel i ef . ” {She’ s cur i ous about what ot her i s sues may have been at hand t o spl i t t he church. } MC: “ I was wonder i ng: your f ami l y s t ayed wi t h t he Bapt i s t Chur ch i ns t ead of t he Hol i nes s? {Di rect ed at Howard}” HE: “ Yeah. ” JE: “ Hal f of t hem. Hi s gr anddaddy bel onged t o t he Hol i nes s Chur ch. ” HE: “ Yeah, r i ght . And my gr andma, my gr andmot her , she bel onged t o t he Bapt i s t . ” {Bot h Jean and Howard begi n l aughi ng} . MC: “ They wer e mar r i ed?” 234 HE: “ Yeah, she was a s t r ong- wi l l ed ol d woman. ” {Ever yone l aughi ng}. JE: “ I r emember t hat wel l . ” HE: “ Cause, we wer e r ai sed Bapt i s t , but , but t hey shar ed us , you know, as ki ds . Li ke we woul d go t o a chur ch i n t he mor ni ng at t he Hol i nes s—” JE: “ Mmhmn. ” HE: “ And t hen i n t he af t er noon ser vi ce we’ d go out t o t he Bapt i s t . ” JE: “ Cause t hey di dn’ t have mor ni ng ser vi ce. They had Sunday School at t wo and t hen 3 o’ cl ock ser vi ce. ” MC: “ Yeah?” JE: “ At t he Hol i nes s we had t en o’ cl ock Sunday School , el even o’ cl ock ser vi ce, so, we al l woul d go t o t he Hol i nes s , t hat mor ni ng, t hen have t o go home and eat , and we’ d al l go and had, you know, a choi r f or t he ki ds mor e or l es s . ” HE: “ We had a j uni or choi r . We t r avel ed ever ywher e; we wer e bi g s t uf f . We went al l , you know, t hr ough, uh, ar ound t hr ough t he ar ea. Got i nvi t ed t o di f f er ent pl aces , had t hi s s chool t eacher —” JE: “ Er nes t i ne Rober t son. ” HE: “ Er nes t i ne Rober t son, yeah, she was our di r ect or so—” MC: “ She was a Wake For es t t eacher ?” HE & JE: “ Yeah. ” MC: “ For bot h chur ches t oo?” JE: “ Wel l , she’ s f or t he Mont gomer y Count y school s . ” MC: “ Oh. ” JE: “ So see we had s i x cl as ses i n s chool . We al l went t o one cl as s i n Wake For es t . When we gr ew up, we s t ar t ed f i r s t gr ade. I t was one t hr ough 235 s i x, i n one r oom, one t eacher . And t hat ’ s—and t hen f or s event h gr ade we went t o Bl acksbur g one year , t hen went on t o Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e. ” HE: “ We went t o Bl acksbur g, gr aduat ed f r om El ement ar y school —” JE: “ That ’ s r i ght , f or t he sevent h, and—” HE: “ And t hen we s t ar t ed Chr i s t i ansbur g I ns t i t ut e t o f i ni sh hi gh school . ” MC: “ Ok. ” [ 2: 56] { Howard and Jean graduat ed i n 1961. Somet i me bef ore t hat , Howard expl ai ns how he moved f rom Bl acksburg. Whi l e away, hi s f ami l y at t ended Bapt i s t churches} . [ 3: 30] MC: “ Di d your gr andmot her not bel i eve i n speaki ng i n t ongues?” HE: “ You know I never —I was so young at t hat t i me. I never got i nt o t hat aspect of i t , you know, of t he r el i gi on, at t hat young an age. So I don’ t r eal l y—coul dn’ t r eal l y s ay hones t l y, s ay yes or no. I knew t hey wer e t hey wer e ver y l i vel y. You know, l i ke t o make noi se. ” {I nt ervi ewer expl ai ns previ ous l y at t ai ned i nf ormat i on regardi ng t he church spl i t . } [ 4: 14] HE: “ What was t hat , I t hi nk mama was t el l i ng me, r emember we wer e t her e af t er and she was , she was sayi ng t her e ‘ wasn’ t goi ng t o be no Hol l y Rol l er s . ’ Somet hi ng t hey di dn’ t want t hem t o be, mi ght have been t he t ongues , I don’ t know. ” JE: “ Yeah, I don’ t know” HE: “ Cause down t hr ough t he year s , I ’ m t r yi ng t o r ef l ect back on, you know, how t hey, you know, per cei ved i t i n our cul t ur e. At t hat t i me, i t ’ s ki nd of har d t o you know, t o r eal l y pi npoi nt what t he i s sue was . I t mi ght have been t hat . ” JE: “ I t pr obabl y was . ” MC: “ So you never asked your par ent s why y’ al l di dn’ t go t he Hol i nes s chur ch {Di rect ed at Howard}?” 236 HE: “ No, no. We wer en’ t al l owed t o do i t . {Ref er r i ng t o bei ng al l owed t o ques t i on el der s } . We went wher e t hey want ed you t o go. ” JE: “ Yeah, you di dn’ t ques t i on anyt hi ng. ” HE: “ You di dn’ t ques t i on i t . You went t o chur ch! We, when Sunday came, one t hi ng i n t he communi t y, you knew i t was Sunday. We knew what our pl aces wer e. ” JE: “ And I know you’ r e r ecor di ng t hi s r i ght ? Ok, and so what I ’ m goi ng t o s ay, I ’ m sayi ng. I j us t asked Howar d t he ot her day, I s ai d, ‘ Howar d, do you r eal l y r emember our par ent s goi ng t o any chur ch at t he t i me we wer e gr owi ng up?’ Even {name uncl ear} , she wasn’ t i n any chur ch. We, we had t o get up and go t o Sunday School . Ok, but our par ent s di d not go. I don’ t , you know—” HE: “ No. They, I t hi nk t hat , i t ’ s l i ke, ok, we wer e, I mean we wer e bapt i zed at t he Bapt i s t by Rever end—what ’ s hi s name? Pr i de?” JE: “ Was i t Pr i de or Tr avi s?” HE: “ No, I t hi nk i t was Rever end Pr i de. Rever end Pr i de bapt i zed me i n t hat l i t t l e pond down t he r oad f r om t he Bapt i s t chur ch. ” JE: “ Ok. ” HE: “ Remember t hat l i t t l e muddy pond—” JE: “ Yeah, and t hen I was , I was up at Sunnys i de. Rever end Har r i son bapt i zed up under t he br i dge at Sunnys i de at a young age, and I was Hol i nes s . Let s s ee, I gr ew up Hol i nes s ; I ’ ve al ways been Hol i nes s . My gr andma, bot h my gr andmot her s , my gr anddad, I don’ t know what he was : papa—” HE: But Kat e was Hol i nes s?” JE: “ Yeah, she was Hol i nes s . ” HE: “ Your mi ni s t er ?” {Ref er r i ng s t i l l t o Si s t er Kat e Fears} . JE: “ Yeah she was a mi ni s t er , yeah. You pr obabl y hear d a l ot of her . ” {Di rect ed at I nt ervi ewer} . 237 MC: “ I ’ ve hear d of her . Peopl e speak hi ghl y of her . ” JE: “ Yeah” HE: “ Yeah, she was , she was—” [ 6: 15] JE: “ And hi s gr andmot her was hi ghl y t hought of t oo, t hat ’ s Aunt Amy. I don’ t know whet her you’ ve hear d t oo much of her , she was t he mi dwi f e and ever yt hi ng i n Wake For es t dur i ng t hat per i od of t i me. ” MC: “ And t hi s was t he women who s t ayed wi t h t he Bapt i s t chur ch. ” HE & JE: “ Yeah. ” JE: “ She s t ayed. Now her husband, Uncl e Gr ant , {Howard and Jean l augh} he s t ayed at t he Hol i nes s chur ch, and see I t ease hi m {ref er r i ng t o Howard} about hi m al l t he t i me cause see he l i kes t o t al k and hi s gr anddaddy l oved t o t al k. {Hard l aught er f ol l ows} . HE: “ I was named af t er hi m, I was named af t er hi m. That ’ s why I t al k. ” JE: “ Anyways , you know we j us t l aughi ng about t hat . ” MC: “ Yeah. ” [ 6: 43] JE: “ But you know i t ’ s i nt er es t i ng and I guess we never knew t oo much about t he r eal l y hi s t or y of i t . ” HE: “ Get t i ng i nvol ved deeper i nt o t he aspect of i t l i ke speaki ng i n t ongues and al l t hat ki nd of s t uf f , you know, we, we had s t r i ct r ul es when we went t o chur ch you know, cer t ai n t hi ngs we di dn’ t do and one of t hem was t al ki ng and cut t i ng up. ” JE: “ That ’ s r i ght . You di dn’ t r un i n and out of t he chur ch. ” HE: “ No, you sat down. ” MC: “ That was t he way at t he Hol i nes s Chur ch?” JE: “ No bot h chur ches . I mean, i t was j us t , I don’ t know. We wer e j us t r ai s ed di f f er ent . And you coul d get on ot her peopl e’ s ki ds . 238 [ 8: 02] HE: Yeah. We had a l ot of peopl e i n t he communi t y we cal l ed Aunt and Uncl es . ” JE: “ Yeah, t hey wer en’ t our Aunt , yes—” HE: “ I was gr own bef or e I r eal i zed t hey wer en’ t my aunt and uncl e, { l aughi ng} and al l my l i f e I ’ ve cal l ed t hem Aunt and Uncl e. And t hat ’ s how t he communi t y—and t hey shar ed t he yout h. You know, each chur ch, i f t hey needed some ki ds t o come s i gn or somet hi ng, t hey’ d j us t gr ab t he ot her s . They di dn’ t car e not hi ng about —” JE: “ Whi ch chur ch t hey wer e. ” HE: “ You know, wasn’ t t hat many ki ds i nvol ved. ” JE: “ Mmhmn. [ 9: 41] MC: “ Wel l I j us t have one mor e ques t i on about , you know, I know even i f t her e was an age gap, do you t hi nk t hat t he chur ches ar e s t i l l what made Wake For es t such a s t r ong, uni t ed communi t y? Do you t hi nk t hat r el i gi on had a l ot t o do wi t h i t ?” JE: “ I t hi nk so. ” HE: “ I t hi nk so. ” [ 12: 12] HE: “ But you know at once t i me, i f I r emember cor r ect , now t he Bapt i s t chur ch was ki nd of dor mant , r emember ?” JE: “ Ever yt hi ng we di d, we di d t her e. Al l t he f uner al s wer e hel d at t he Bapt i s t chur ch, whet her you wer e Hol i nes s or Bapt i s t , cause you know—. ” HE: “ I t was a l ar ger f aci l i t y at t hat t i me. ” JE: “ Yeah. ” MC: “ Do you know j us t ‘ r ound about when t hat woul d have been?” JE: “ Ok, ‘ 49?” [ 13: 00] {Howard and Jean expl ai n changes i n church at t endance} . 239 [ 14: 07] HE: “ I t hi nk you can hones t l y s ay t hat t he r el i gi on had somet hi ng t hat uni f i ed, you know, keepi ng a l ot of t he communi t y t hi ngs goi ng. You know, i t wasn’ t about t he r el i gi on a l ot of t i mes , j us t ever ybody comi ng t oget her , you know. I f anyt hi ng happened, especi al l y of a t r agedy nat ur e, you know, t hey can al l pi t ch- i n and do what t hey had t o do, you know. ” JE: “ And t he, t hen t he t hi ngs we meant as chi l dr en—as we sai d—t he chi l dr en shar ed bot h chur ches and what ever somet hi ng—and mos t of t he t i me i t was t he Bapt i s t chur ch. Remember t he l i t t l e weddi ngs and al l t he par ent s came t o s ee t hei r chi l dr en? So whet her you came t o chur ch ever y Sunday or not , t hey’ d al l show up f or a l i t t l e pr ogr am, and t hey t hought al l conf i dant i n t he end {Because of t he parent s ’ pr i de i n t hei r chi l dren af t er t hey pref ormed i n a church program}. And I know t hat was i n 1946. ” [ 15: 24] MC: “ Di d t hey seem l i ke God f ear i ng peopl e t hat l i ved t her e?” {Ref er r i ng t o communi t y members of Wake Fores t dur i ng Jean and Howard’ s chi l dhood} . JE: “ Yeah. ” HE: “ Oh yeah! ” JE: “ I f t hey wer en’ t god f ear i ng—. ” HE: “ They put f ear i n us . {Laughi ng} Cause we f ear ed t hem. ” 240 Cat he r i ne Sur f ac e & Haz e l Choat e—Oc t obe r , 14 2006 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The ki t chen of Kent l and Far m wher e t he t wo l adi es wer e s i t t i ng s i de- by- s i de f l i ppi ng t hough a pi ct ur e al bum. Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 1: 01] Sur f ac e : “ Di d any of your ances t or s ever make t hose sweet cakes?” Choat e “ Yeah. Wel l now, what di d we cal l um?” Sur f ac e : “ Y’ al l cal l ed um pr obabl y sugar cooki es , di d you?” Choat e : “ Pr obabl y. ” Sur f ac e : “ We cal l ed sweet cakes . You’ d make up dough j us t l i ke bi scui t dough. ” [ 2: 06] Cai n: “ What woul d y’ al l make f or Hol i days , l i ke Chr i s t mas?” Sur f ac e : “ Pound Cake. ” Cai n: “ Yeah?” Choat e : “ Ri ght . ” Sur f ac e : “ Yeah t he pound cake. ” Choat e : “ I usual l y make a pound cake on Chr i s t mas . ” Sur f ac e : “ Yeah, pound cake and boi l ed cus t ar d. ” Cai n: “ Yeah, my gr andma does t hat . ” Choat e : “ I don’ t know whet her mama ever made boi l ed cus t ar d. ” 241 Cai n: “ Di d y’ al l have any ki nd of speci al t r adi t i ons , r el i gi ous l y, ar ound Chr i s t mas?” Choat e : “ Oh, you know, go t o chur ch. ” Sur f ac e : “ Your Chr i s t mas pr ogr am. ” [ 2: 45] Cai n: “ Di d you guys use t o r ead scr i pt ur e and s t uf f on Sunday mor ni ng?” Choat e : “ We’ d go t o Sunday School . ” Sur f ac e : “ Yeah, we’ d go t o chur ch, you know. And we al ways have, you know, t he f ami l y al ways come i n. We’ d exchange gi f t s , enj oyed t he f ami l y, and had di nner . ” Choat e : “ We di dn’ t do much exchanged gi f t s cause as I s ai d, we wer e poor f ol k. ” Sur f ac e : “ Wel l , we di dn’ t —we j us t got what we coul d af f or d. I t el l you, back t hen you di dn’ t go t o ext r emes about t hi ngs . Peopl e was happy t o get t oget her and what ever you coul d af f or d, you got . That was i t . ” [ 3: 31] Sur f ac e : “ You got what you coul d af f or d. I f you coul d af f or d a gi f t , you di d. And i f you di dn’ t get none, t hat was al r i ght i f you coul dn’ t af f or d i t . But we al ways got t oget her and had a good t i me. ” Choat e : “ We di dn’ t —as I s ai d, we di dn’ t have l i ke, you know, any of t hat wayf ar er t ai l s of Sant a comi ng down t he chi mney. ” Cai n: “ You guys di dn’ t ever get gi f t s ?” {A j oke t hat no bel i ef i n Sant a meant no gi f t s . Mrs . Choat e t ook t he ques t i on l i t erat el y}. Choat e : “ No not r eal l y, cause as I s ai d my daddy was s i ck a l ong t i me bef or e he di ed, and t hat was back, you know, we di dn’ t have t hi ngs . Di dn’ t —Mama di dn’ t have money t o go out and buy gi f t s , you know. ” Cai n: “ Di d you s t i l l cel ebr at e?” Choat e : “ Oh we have a good t i me, we’ d have a pr ogr am. See, my s i s t er and I , you know, my br ot her , we’ d have a pr ogr am and you know, at home. And we’ d hand out di f f er ent , ever yt hi ng, l i ke books , l i ke school books , or what ever . Pas sed um out as gi f t s , you know, t o one anot her . We di dn’ t — 242 but as I s ai d, we wer e poor . We di dn’ t have anyt hi ng, no money t o go out and buy gi f t s . ” Cai n: “ Do you t hi nk you wer e r eal l y abl e t o cel ebr at e t he r eason f or t he season mor e—mor e bef or e?” Choat e : “ Oh yeah, mor e. Now, t hey don’ t pay at t ent i on t o i t . ” Sur f ac e : “ Wel l , I ’ ve t aught a Sunday School cl as s f or year s and I t el l t hem my chi l dr en—my t wo ki ds , you know, i t ’ s not hi ng wr ong wi t h buyi ng a gi f t . ” Choat e : “ No. ” Sur f ac e : “ But don’ t go t o ext r emes because t he gr eat es t gi f t was gi ve t o us and we gi ve out of t hat l ove as a gi f t t o our f r i ends . I t ’ s how you gi ve t he gi f t . Li t t l e or bi g, i t ’ s how you gi ve. And I t el l , t her e not hi ng wr ong wi t h gi vi ng t he gi f t because t he gr eat es t gi f t was gi ve t o us and t hen we gi ve i n l ove, i n r et ur n. ” Choat e : “ So anyway, as I s ay, we’ d have pr ogr ams . ” Sur f ac e : “ Yeah. ” Choat e : “ My br ot her and s i s t er , and I , you know, we’ d have pr ogr am. Pas s out —at Chr i s t mas t i me, pas s out s chool books as gi f t s , you know, t o one anot her . No—but as I s ai d, I don’ t r egr et i t . Because we, I t hi nk nowadays chi l dr en don’ t r eal l y under s t and and know t he f ul l meani ng of what i t means . ” Sur f ac e : “ They t hi nk i t ’ s f or , you know, I want t hi s , I want t hi s . You mus t never f or get , l i ke I t el l my cl as s , t he gr eat es t gi f t come t o us . ” [ 6: 19] Choat e : “ But as I s ai d, we’ d t ake school books and pas s t hem out t o one anot her as gi f t , you know. And—but as I s ai d, I don’ t t hi nk chi l dr en r eal l y r eal i ze t he—what i t means , you know, t hey r eal l y don’ t . ” [ 7: 31] Choat e : “ They don’ t ever r eal i ze t he t r ue meani ng of Chr i s t mas , you know. ” [ 8: 30] Cai n: “ Di d you guys used t o pr ay t oget her as a f ami l y at ni ght , or i n t he mor ni ngs , or f or meal s?” 243 Choat e : “ Oh yeah, wel l we di dn’ t eat unt i l you know, wi t hout bl es s i ng t he f ood. ” Sur f ac e : “ No. No you di dn’ t . ” Cai n: “ Never once?” Choat e : “ No, you di dn’ t go on, s t ar t eat i ng. ” [ 9: 04] Choat e : “ As I s ai d, my f at her di ed when I was young. But my mot her , when we got t o t he t abl e, you know, we di dn’ t eat unt i l she bl es sed t he f ood. ” [ 9: 26] Cai n: “ What about i n t he eveni ngs bef or e y’ al l went t o bed? Di d y’ al l have f ami l y pr ayer s t i mes t oget her ?” Choat e : “ Umhumn. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ What was t hat l i ke? Ever y ni ght ?” Choat e : “ Wel l of cour se. ” [ 9: 57] Choat e : “ As I s ai d, we had pr ayer , you know, and my mot her j us t s i t down, and my mot her woul d r ead t he bi bl e and have pr ayer , you know, and al l . But you don’ t s ee t hat nowadays . ” Cai n: “ Woul d you—ever yone i n t he f ami l y woul d get t oget her i n t he l i vi ng r oom i n t he eveni ng?” Choat e : “ Wher ever , j us t wher ever . You r eal l y di dn’ t have t o be what you cal l t he l i vi ng r oom cause i t was what ever . ” Cai n: “ You woul dn’ t j us t go t o your r ooms and go t o s l eep, you’ d al ways—” Choat e : “ Anyt i me, you know, and my mot her woul d have pr ayer wi t h us at ni ght , you know, when we go t o bed. ” Cai n: “ Was i t somet hi ng you enj oyed?” Choat e : “ Oh yeah. ” Cai n: “ Or some ni ght s wer e you l i ke, ‘ Oh, I don’ t want t o’ ?” 244 Choat e : “ Oh no. ” {Second t rack: BW_B0071} Cai n: “ I f you al l had t o make a s t at ement f or my hi s t or y on t he r el i gi on, woul d you say t hat i n Pr i ces For k and Wake For es t , r el i gi on was a dr i vi ng f or ce f or l i f e?” Sur f ac e : “ Yes . Number one, back when we gr owed up. I t was . That was ver y i mpor t ant . ” Choat e : “ Oh yeah. You know, so many peopl e came t o our chur ch. You know, we shar ed, you know, peopl e l i ved up t he cr eek, you know, and ar ound. They’ d come t o chur ch, you know, have ser vi ce t oget her . Cause i t wasn’ t such t hi ng as whi t e peopl e and bl ack peopl e. We al l —t hey went t o chur ch and wor shi ped t he Lor d t oget her . Because what peopl e f ai l ed t o r eal i ze i s t hat t her e’ s not goi ng t o be any di f f er ence. ” [ 1: 48] Choat e : “ Peopl e f ai l t o r eal i ze t hat i f we al l di e and go t o heaven, t her e’ s not goi ng t o be any bl ack peopl e over her e and whi t e peopl e over her e and not hi ng al l t hat . I t don’ t wor k l i ke t hat . But peopl e f ai l t o r eal i ze t hat . ” Sur f ac e : “ We l i ve next door t o bl ack peopl e you know. Li ke i f j us t t oday—i f we cal l um t he N- wor ds or bad t hi ngs , Daddy woul d come out of hi s gr ave cause he made us—he t aught us t o r espect t hose peopl e. ” Choat e : “ Oh yeah. We had t o r espect ever ybody. ” Sur f ac e : “ You di d. You di dn’ t l ook at nobody by what t hei r col or was cause we saw what you was i n your hear t , not on your ski n. ” Choat e : “ Li ke I s ai d, when you di e, t her e i s not —i f you go t o heaven or i f you go t o hel l , i t i sn’ t goi ng t o be t hi s bl ack peopl e, whi t e peopl e, bl ack peopl e, and al l t hat . I t don’ t wor k l i ke t hat . See because God i s not of r espect f or per sons ; he made us al l . And he di dn’ t make, you know, because t her e i s a di f f er ent col or makes no di f f er ence. Because he’ s t he Lor d of al l of us , and peopl e f ai l t o r eal i ze t hat , you know. Because we al l have t o s ee Jesus f or your sel f . ” Sur f ac e : “ Thi s her e l ady at wor k, she sai d—I don’ t know what she sai d t o me, and I s ai d, ‘ Wel l you know i n Revel at i on i t s ai d ‘ so f r om ever y 245 t r i be and ever y nat i on wi l l be t her e. ’ I s ai d, ‘ I t ’ l l be peopl e, f ol ks t her e of al l ki nds . ’ She sai d, ‘ Wel l you answer ed my ques t i on’ . ” 246 Ji mmi e Pr i c e —Se pt e mbe r 13, 2006 I nt e r vi e we r : Mor gan Cai n Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The di nni ng t abl es at Snuf f y’ s Gas St at i on i n Pr i nces For k Vi r gi ni a. Not e s : Rever end J i mmi e Lee Pr i ce i s a hi ghl y r espect ed communi t y member , pas t or , l ocal hi s t or i an, and f r i end t o many i n Mont gomer y Count y. He i s t he Pr es i dent of t he Coal Mi ner s Associ at i on of Bl acksbur g and t he mi ni s t er at Fai r vi ew Communi t y Chur ch. He and hi s wi f e, Bet t y Pr i ce, have one son. Bot h J i mmi e and Bet t y have dedi cat ed t hei r l i ves t o s er vi ng Nor t hwes t Mont gomer y Count y. The i nf or mat i on J i mmi e shar es and s t or i es he t el l s ei t her come f r om year s of r esear ch or f i r s t - hand account s of Wake For es t el der s t hemsel ves i n whi ch J i mmi e has spent much t i me. To hi m, communi t y hi s t or y i s somet hi ng sacr ed t hat shoul d never be l os t . He f eel s f or ever gr at ef ul t o Wake For es t f or t he i nf l uence t hat numer ous Wake For es t El der s had i n hi s ear l y l i f e. Hi s hi s t or i cal r esear ch r egar di ng Wake For es t has been done i n many r espect s as a s er vi ce t o a communi t y t o whi ch he f eel s f or ever t hankf ul . Wor ds whi ch ar e undeci pher abl e due t o compr omi sed r ecor di ng qual i t y ar e mar ked as {uncl ear}. Thi s i nt er vi ew per t ai ns t o many subj ect mat t er s , however , t he t r anscr i bed mat er i al s was scr eened f or r el i gi ous f ocus . Mi nor changes f r om t he r ecor ded i nt er vi ew have been made t o t r anscr i pt i on by i nt er vi ewee. [ Ti me c he c ks i ndi c at e d] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. [ 5: 40] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ And t hen t he Bapt i s t , Met hodi s t , and Pent ecos t al s ar e l es s s t r uct ur ed. . . so peopl e ar e mor e f r ee t o choose and you get much mor e di ver s i t y i n wor shi p s t yl es . ” [ 6: 20] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I n t he ear l y days , t hey wor shi ped i n gr oves of t r ees . ” [ 6: 42] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ As l at e as t he 1930’ s , 1940’ s , t he Bl ack and Whi t e peopl e, my, my f ami l y and ot her s wor shi ped wi t h Bl ack peopl e, Wake For es t , i n a gr ove of t r ees . Jus t had boar d seat s . Br ought chai r s f r om home, hor ses and wagon, a f ew aut omobi l es , and each Sunday af t er noon, t hey gat her ed t oget her , t he r aces came t oget her and wor shi ped God. Ther e was an i t i ner ar y pr eacher named Br ady Cr oy who used t o pr es i de over t hose meet i ngs 247 and somet i mes a Bl ack mi ni s t er woul d pr es i de over t hose. Thi s Si s t er Kat e Fear s , uh, Bl ack l ady mi ni s t er —” Mor gan Cai n: “ What year was t hat ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Ok, t hey, t hat was i n t he 40’ s , 30’ s and 40’ s . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Bl ack women mi ni s t er ? That was pr et t y r adi cal wasn’ t i t ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Yeah. I t was . I di dn’ t t el l you about her . I t ol d Dr . Cook’ s cl as s t he ot her day about her . The Pent ecos t al chur ches have l i censed women t o pr each s i nce ar ound 1910. Women have pas t or ed s i nce 1910, t hey’ ve been evangel i s t s and mi s s i onar i es s i nce ar ound 1910. Pent ecos t al s have t hei r r oot s i n s ever al denomi nat i ons , but pr i mar i l y t he Met hodi s t t r adi t i on. And uh, Si s t er Kat e Fear s ’ s a daught er of a coal mi ner whose ances t or s wer e s l aves down at Kent l and Far m, whi ch i s owned by Vi r gi ni a Tech. She was mar r i ed t o a coal mi ne oper at or , Af r i can Amer i can coal mi ne oper at or . She was—she f el t cal l ed t o pr each at an ear l y age. And she began t o pr each i n Wake, Wake For es t Chur ch, she pr eached i n homes . We had what we cal l Cot t age Pr ayer Meet i ngs , l eadi ng home ser vi ces way back, Bl ack and Whi t e get t i ng t oget her ; peopl e j us t s t ar t i ng i n t he mi ni s t r y or i nt ener at e pr eacher s such as her woul d pr each i n t hose ser vi ces . She was wi del y r espect ed, wi se, l ovi ng, gr aci ous . She was a ment or f or many of us . She hel ped about 7 or 8 young mi ni s t er s get s t ar t ed i n t he mi ni s t r y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ That ’ s amazi ng” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ She a wonder f ul women. She hel d Sat —Sunday af t er noon ser vi ces i n her home, her and her husband. Bl ack and Whi t e, you know, mul t i r aci al , mi xed- r ace ser vi ces . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And you sai d bef or e, but you t hi nk t hat t he whol e r eason f or Bl acks and Whi t es get t i ng al ong so wel l i n t hi s ar ea has t o do wi t h t he Ger man ances t r y, t he f act t hat t he Ger mans f el t i t was wr ong—” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ That was a maj or r eason behi nd i t and i t was al so t hat poor Whi t es r el at ed t o t he s l aves , and t hi s r egi on was about evenl y di vi ded bet ween conf eder at e and uni on sympat hi es dur i ng t he Ci vi l War . And mos t of t he Ger mans , especi al l y Ger man Lut her ans , woul dn’ t own s l aves , and t hey wer e opposed t o i t on r el i gi ous gr ounds . Of cour se Met hodi s t and ot her s 248 wer e. The poor Whi t e s aw t hemsel ves as bei ng i n t he same boat wi t h poor Bl acks . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ They wer e humbl e peopl e al r eady. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Humbl e peopl e al r eady, and wor ked. They wer en’ t spoi l ed by, you know, af f l uence or weal t h and t he ar i s t ocr acy t hat exi s t ed on pl ant at i ons . And of t en, so ah, poor Whi t es di d f eel a ki ndr edshi p wi t h t he Bl ack, f r eed bl acks and s l aves . ” [ 11: 00] {Churches as s chool s , no separat i on of church and s t at e. Church as cent er of communi t y. Teachers were of t en t he mi ni s t er s or mi ni s t er s ’ wi ves}. [ 12: 47] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ But Si s t er Kat e was , she was not hi ghl y educat ed. I t hi nk she went t hr ough el ement ar y school , I ’ m not sur e she went t o any hi gh school . But she was a ver y spi r i t ual , war m, l ovi ng and gent l e woman who had gr eat wi sdom. And she was t aught by her gr andpar ent s and her par ent s . See Wake For es t i s a cul t ur e of di gni t y. I t hi nk I ment i oned t hi s i n cl as s , t hey di dn’ t get bi t t er , t hey became bet t er . And t hat was an i mpact on me. That was a l es son I was t aught at home, but she, she r eal l y emphas i zed t hat i f you’ r e a Chr i s t i an you can’ t hat e your br ot her , you can’ t hat e your s i s t er . That ’ s power f ul . ” [ 13: 38] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I asked my dad when I was young, I s ai d, “ Dad, ” I s ays , “ what ’ s happeni ng t o Bl ack peopl e’ s not r i ght . They can’ t eat i n r es t aur ant s and t hey can’ t uh, you know, r i de t he f r ont of buses or anyt hi ng. I s ai d, “ That ’ s not r i ght . ” He sai d, ‘ No i t i sn’ t r i ght . ’ I s ai d “ What can we do about t hat ?’ He says , “ I ’ m not sur e t her e’ s anyt hi ng you and I can do, ’ but he sai d “ we can t r eat Bl ack peopl e r i ght . ’ Yep. So I s ai d, “ Ok. That ’ s what I ’ m goi ng t o do. I ’ m goi ng t o t r eat t hem r i ght . ” [ 16: 54] {Bet t y Pr i ce, Ji mmi e’ s wi f e, j oi ns us f or l unch at Snuf f y’ s . We begi n t al ki ng about how hi s wi f e and he marr i ed and she was rai sed as a Lut heran}. Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Pent ecos t al s have l i vel y and exuber ant wor shi p. Spi r i t ual , we cal l i t spi r i t ual . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Yeah, I ’ ve been t o a f ew. ” [ 56: 55] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ See t he s l aves i ni t i at ed a l ot of t he shout i ng, and l oud s i ngi ng, and hand cl appi ng, and r ej oi ci ng because t hey, t hey had t o 249 cel ebr at e a f r eedom of spi r i t , not havi ng a f r eedom of body or soci al l i f e. They wer e exuber ant and t hey shout ed and danced and cl apped t hei r hands and pat t ed t hei r f eet . And so t hat , t hat had an i nf l uence on t he ear l y Met hodi s t s , and Pent ecos t al s , and even Bapt i s t s wer e shout i ng. Ther e’ s a song about shout i ng Met hodi s t s and ah, pr ayi ng Bapt i s t s and al l t hat . And ah, so t he, t he Bl acks and Pent ecos t al s devel oped t hi s exuber ant —and Bapt i s t s , i t wasn’ t , i t ’ s not j us t r es t r i ct ed t o denomi nat i ons , but t he l es s - s t r uct ur ed, mor e j oyf ul t ype wor shi p ah, was adopt ed by Pent ecos t al s and bei ng i nf l uenced by Af r i can Amer i cans . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l do you know, i f ah, t he Bl acks , wer e t hey wor shi pi ng wi t h t he Lut her ans or wer e t hey wor shi pi ng wi t h t he, wi t h t he Scot ch- I r i sh Met hodi s t s mor e of t en. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Sl aves at Kent l and went t o a Pr esbyt er i an Chur ch at Par r ot or Bel l Spr i ng over at Pul aski Count y acr os s t he r i ver . And t her e was a s l ave bal cony i n t hat chur ch. Now t hat was cus t omar y t hat t he owner s t ook t he s l aves t o chur ch wi t h t hem. Somet i mes t hey’ d be an i nt ener at e s l ave or f r ee Bl ack mi ni s t er woul d come and pr each t o t he s l aves on t he pl ant at i on. But uh, t hey wer e, t hey wer e, r el i gi on and Chr i s t i ani t y wer e s t r es sed t o s l aves par t i al l y t o keep t hem at peace and not have t hem have i nsur r ect i ons and be vi ol ent and escapi ng and al l t hat . I mean t hat was a t ool —unf ai r as i t was , but i t was—t he peopl e at Wake For es t t el l me now, t hat “ That was good, because we came t o know Jesus Chr i s t . ” {As t ol d t o Reverend Pr i ce by St eve Sherman and Rober t Jones} Mor gan Cai n: “ Wel l when t hey wer e f r eed, wher e di d t hey wor shi p?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ They went down t her e, s t ar t ed t hei r own a scho—combi nat i on school and chur ch and t he pl ant at i on owner gave t hem l and and hel ped t o bui l d a pl ace of wor shi p and school house. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Who was t he owner ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I t was , t he owner was James Randal Kent f r om ah, Kent l and was named f or hi m, and ah especi al l y one of hi s , t wo of hi s daught er s wer e r eal ki ndl y t o t he f r eed s l aves and hel ped t hem get es t abl i shed i n t he l i f e of f r eedom. And ah, t her e’ s a deed f or t hat l i t t l e pl ace and a chur ch and t hey sai d i t was f or t he excl us i ve use of t he, of t he ‘ negr o’ peopl e. ” [ 1: 00: 07] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Some became Bapt i s t , and some became Pent ecos t al , and some became—t her e was a whi t e man, had been a capt ai n i n t he uni on ar my: 250 Char l es S. Schaef f er . He came her e wi t h t he Fr eedman’ s Bur eau af t er t he Ci vi l War and he hel ped bl ack peopl e t o get s chool s and chur ches s t ar t ed. And t he Bl ack communi t y i n Chr i s t i ansbur g has a Schaef f er Memor i al Bapt i s t chur ch, al l Bl ack, named f or t hi s Whi t e guy who had been so wonder f ul as a Chr i s t i an t o t hem and t hei r f ai t h. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d he come t hr ough her e t oo?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ He came t hr ough her e and l i ved f or s ever al year s . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Di d he hel p t hat chur ch down by Wake For es t ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ He di d, and El l i s t on, and t he one i n Chr i s t i ansbur g. Thr ee chur ches . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Do you know what year he came t hr ough Wake For es t ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Li ke 1865- 66, i mmedi at el y f ol l owi ng t he Ci vi l War . And ah, you’ l l f i nd a, I t hi nk t her e’ s a pai nt i ng or a bus t or somet hi ng of hi m i n t hat chur ch, Schaef f er Memor i al . And see, t hi s Chr i s t i ani t y has r eal l y benef i t ed t he r aces her e because ‘ Love t hy br ot her , l ove t hy nei ghbor as t hysel f . ’ Not onl y wer e t he coal mi nes a l evel i ng gr ound, but t he chur ch was a l evel i ng pl ace. I t el l peopl e t hat t he al t er of pr ayer and t he coal mi ne was t wo pl aces wher e heaven and hel l came t oget her . You had t o come t o gr i ps wi t h your humani t y, your f ai t h, and your f el l ow man. You had t o ei t her acknowl edge hi m and l ove hi m, or you had t o hat e hi m and go on your j our ney. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Regar dl es s of f ai t h?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Regar dl es s of f ai t h. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Regar dl es s of col or ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Regar dl es s of col or . And i t had an humbl i ng ef f ect on our r aces and upon our ar r ogance, and our pr ej udi ces . Thanks be unt o God. ” [ 1: 02: ] Mor gan Cai n: “ So do you t hi nk i t ’ s somet hi ng t hat makes i t ver y uni que?” 251 Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I t i s uni que because t hi s i s t he capi t ol of t he conf eder acy. And we had pl ant at i ons , al t hough not as many as Eas t er n Vi r gi ni a and Ti dewat er , but ah, wher e t her e was so much r aci sm, di scr i mi nat i on, hat e. I t was not as , not as pr omi nent her e, not near l y. ” Be t t y Pr i c e : “ Tel l her t he s t or y about bapt i zi ng t he s l ave Cal . ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Ok. Ther e’ s one of J ames Randal l Kent ’ s s l aves , s ee he had f our pl ant at i ons . One of hi s s l aves at Wal nut Spr i ng, uncl e Cal vi n Kyl e—i n t hose days we wer e t aught t o cal l t he el der Bl ack peopl e Uncl e and Aunt , out of r espect , I was . Uncl e Kyl e, Si s t er Kat e, Uncl e t hi s , Uncl e t hat . Uncl e Cal vi n Kyl e was an ol d and f ai t hf ul s l ave t o t he Ot ey, Ot ey f ami l y. He wor ked f or t he Ot ey’ s af t er he was f r eed, never l ef t . He was a car r i age dr i ver , gar dener , j ack of al l t r ades . Bel oved of t hat f ami l y. He was ol d and get t i ng f r ai l and f eebl e, and he des i r ed t o make sur e of hi s soul ’ s s al vat i on. Hi s owner , hi s f or mer owner , act ual l y t he son of hi s f or mer owner was so good t o hi m, pr ovi ded t he pl ace f or hi m t o l i ve and he sent f or hi s mi ni s t er f r om Bl acksbur g and he had hi m t o come down t o bapt i ze Uncl e Kyl e and make sur e of hi s soul bef or e he di ed. Lar ge cr owd f r om t he communi t y gat her ed. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Bl ack cr owd?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Bl ack and Whi t e. ” Be t t y Pr i c e : “ My dad was t her e. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ He t ol d us t hi s s t or y. ” Be t t y Pr i c e : “ He was a young ki d, chi l d. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Yeah, and he sai d i t was ver y sol emn. They gat her ed on t he cr eek bank at a cat t l e f or t wher e cat t l e used t o cr os s and t her e’ s a deep pool near t her e. The mi ni s t er t ook uncl e Kyl e out i n t he wat er and some boys on t he bank began cut t i ng up, and l aughi ng, and car r yi ng on and ki nd of maki ng f un. ” Be t t y Pr i c e : “ Cause i t was col d. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I t was col d and t he ol d man was shi ver i ng. ” Be t t y Pr i c e : “ Shi ver i ng. ” 252 Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ And um, t he f ar m owner who was over seei ng al l t hi s , he became angr y and he sai d ‘ You boys shut up! ’ s ai d, ‘ Thi s i s a s acr ed and a s er i ous t i me. I t ’ s no l aughi ng mat t er and you get qui et . And so he dr ew back as i f he woul d s t r i ke um and her , her {Bet t y’ s} dad sai d t hey t ook t hat ol d Bl ack man i n t hat wat er and t hey bapt i zed hi m and ever ybody was bl es sed. I t was a s acr ed and a bl es sed t i me. He got bapt i zed and i t wasn’ t l ong bef or e he went t o meet hi s maker . And t hat was j us t a sweet , sweet s t or y t hat keeps bei ng t ol d i n our nei ghbor hood. ” [ 1: 07: 11] Mor gan Cai n: “ So do you know out of t hat f i r s t —what was t he t i t l e of t hat f i r s t Af r i can Amer i can chur ch?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I t was cal l ed The Af r i can Met hodi s t Epi scopal Chur ch. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And f r om t hat , ar e t her e any di r ect of f spr i ng f r om t hat chur ch?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Ok, t her e ar e, t her e ar e t wo of f spr i ng, wel l t her e’ s t hr ee, t hr ee s t r uct ur es out t her e. Um, t hey wor shi ped i n a combi nat i on chur ch and school as I s ai d. They di dn’ t have a r eal name, j us t r ef er r ed t o as Bl ack Chur ch or Wake For es t Chur ch. Ar ound t he t ur n of t he cent ur y, a mi ni s t er came her e f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a, Af r i can Amer i can mi ni s t er . And t hen t her e was anot her Bl ack mi ni s t er came her e, I t hi nk he was f r om Nor t h Car ol i na. The, t he vi l l age of , t he communi t y i n t he vi l l age of Wake For es t became f ounded by t hese s l aves and one of t hese s l aves was a man who was a man named Pet er Ar ms t r ong f r om Nor t h Car ol i na. He’ d been bor n i n Tennessee, he was a s l ave near Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na. A bl acksmi t h, bei ng a t r adesmen, he coul d ear n mor e, he pur chased l and ear l y on and hel ped t he ot her f r eed s l aves t o get l and out t her e. So he—t hi s mi ni s t er at t he t ur n of t he cent ur y at t he Bapt i s t Chur ch named t hi s Bl ack set t l ement Wake For es t i n honor of Pet er Ar ms t r ong who had come f r om Wake For es t , Nor t h Car ol i na. Mor gan Cai n: “ Ok. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ And t hat ’ s on t he—” Mor gan Cai n: “ He was a Bapt i s t ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I bel i eve he was Bapt i s t . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ So i s t hat why t hey s t ar t ed a Bapt i s t Chur ch. ” 253 Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I ’ m as sumi ng t hat t hey had t o have l i ke i t i ner at e mi ni s t er s , t hey had been exposed t o t he Bapt i s t f ai t h ear l y on cause when t hey became abl e t o choose, bei ng f r eed, t hey, t he maj or i t y chose t o be Bapt i s t . They di dn’ t choose t he James Randal l Kent l i ke Pr esbyt er i an—one was , some was Pr esbyt er i an some wer e Epi scopal i an. They di dn’ t choose t hat , t hey chose Bapt i s t or Pent ecos t al . Anyway—” Mor gan Cai n: “ So t he Bl ack chur ch r emai ned and t hr ee di f f er ent chur ches came f r om t hat i n Wake For es t ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Yes . The um, t he Bapt i s t Chur ch was s t ar t ed f i r s t , t hen some of t he peopl e i n t he Bapt i s t chur ch—see Bl ack and Whi t e peopl e had al ways pr et t y much wor shi pped t oget her . Ther e was t hi s pas t or came f r om Wes t Vi r gi ni a t o t hi s Bl ack Bapt i s t Chur ch. Some of t he peopl e wer e ki nd of wor shi pi ng i n t he uni on s t yl e and t hen t he Bapt i s t s er vi ces , some of t hem woul d do t he shout i ng and t es t i moni es and exuber ant , j oyf ul wor shi p and t he Bapt i s t pas t or di dn’ t l i ke t hat . He f el t t hat i f anyone was goi ng t o wor shi p di f f er ent l y t hat t hey ought t o get out and get t hei r own pl ace. Mys t er i ous l y, t he chur ch bur ned. Ri ght af t er t he chur ch bur ned, t hey bui l t i t back and t he pas t or announced i t was goi ng t o be s t r i ct l y Bapt i s t and not any mi xed congr egat i on any mor e and t he whi t e pr eacher s wer e not goi ng t o be pr eachi ng t her e anymor e. So some of t hose member s went j us t a l i t t l e di s t ance over i n t he vi l l age i n t he communi t y and t hey f or med t he Bl ack Pent ecos t al Chur ch. ” {Tol d t o Reverend Pr i ce by Kat e Fears} Mor gan Cai n: “ Wher e t hey coul d shout ?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Wher e t hey coul d shout . . . and t es t i f y. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ And i s i t s t i l l t her e?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ I t ’ s s t i l l t her e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ What ’ s , what ’ s t he name of t hat chur ch?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Ok. I t ’ s now a denomi nat i onal chur ch, I bel i eve t hey cal l i t Uni t ed Hol y Chur ch. Uni t ed Hol y Chur ch, t hat ’ s a denomi nat i on: Uni t ed Hol y Chur ch, t hat ’ s Pent ecos t al . ” [ 1: 11: 30] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ She i s a l i vi ng hi s t or y book. ” {Es t her Jones} [ 1: 11: 57] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Thi s l and f or t hi s Pent ecos t al Bl ack Chur ch was gi ven by Howar d Sher man, who was a f r eed Kent l and s l ave, Howar d Sher man. ” 254 Mor gan Cai n: “ And she’ d r emember hi m?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Yeah, he was , I t hi nk he was one of her gr andf at her s or somehow r el at ed t o her . ” [ 1: 12: 33] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Then i n t he l at e 1900’ s , t hey went f ar t her over and t hi s Pent ecos t al bui l t a new sanct uar y, and t hi s ot her , t hi s or i gi nal ol d chur ch of 1926 i s now vacant and i dl e. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ But i t ’ s s t i l l s t andi ng?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ St i l l s t andi ng. ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Gr eat . ” [ 1: 26: 32] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Thi s i s t he ol d chur ch of 1926. The ol d s l ave Uncl e Howar d Sher man gave l and her e and hel ped t o bui l d i t . ” [ 1: 28: 58] Mor gan Cai n: “ I s she s t i l l wel l t hought of and wel l known by t he peopl e i n t he ar ea. ” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Si s t er Kat e? Absol ut el y. She’ s al mos t a hal l owed f i gur e ar ound her e. ” [ 1: 30: 49] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ My par ent s br ought me her e as a baby t o t hi s l i t t l e whi t e Af r i can Amer i can chur ch on Sunday af t er noons . I t was j us t cus t omar y, i t was j us t cus t omar y t hat you wer e j us t nei ghbor s , you wer e j us t f r i ends . Uh, t he Bl ack women hel ped t o bi r t h our chi l dr en. They nur sed my momma when she came home f r om t he hospi t al wi t h one of us babi es . Mom woul d get s i ck, she’ d, daddy cal l f or nei ghbor women, Bl ack l ady come i n and cook f or us , boss us youngi ns , t hr eat en t o t ear t he dayl i ght s out of us i f we di dn’ t behave, but she l oved us t o deat h. And I mean we, we shar ed f ood, we wor ked i n t he f i el ds t oget her , and one Af r i can Amer i can man, Mr . Page, we cal l ed hi m Snake Page, Geor ge Wal l ace Page. And he was a f i ne per son and he sai d, you know t he r eason t hat we got al ong so good ar ound her e, ’ he sai d, “ We wer e al l i n t he same boat . ” Mor gan Cai n: “ Economi cal l y?” Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Economi cal l y, spi r i t ual l y, what you di d f or a l i vi ng, and you j us t had t hat ki nd of r espect . ” [ 1: 34: 36] 255 {Showi ng me Si s t er Kat e’ s house} [ 1: 34: 49] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ You coul d go i n t hat house when she was i n t her e, now you don’ t wor shi p peopl e, but i t f el t l i ke a chur ch. You coul d f eel t he Hol y Spi r i t when you went i ns i de t hat door , and t he l ove, and t he war mt h, and t he wel come t hat wonder f ul l ady shar ed wi t h anybody t hat woul d ent er her door . I t was an at mospher e t hat you—i t was char ged wi t h goodness and f ai t h. I t ’ s i ncr edi bl e t he ef f ect t hat she and her f ai t h had on peopl e and you know you hear about f al s e r el i gi on and shys t er pr eacher s who ar e out f or t he money, and t hey’ r e j us t r i ppi ng peopl e of f . Ther e was ver y l i t t l e of t hat i n t hi s nei ghbor hood, t hankf ul l y. ” [ 1: 36: 19] Ji mmi e Pr i c e : “ Ri ght her e i n t hi s gr ove of t r ees was wher e t hey met i n t he gr oves i n t he 30’ s and 40’ s . They sat on pl ank benches , s t umps , s t r ai ght back chai r s , or anyt hi ng el se t hey coul d br i ng and t he coal mi ner and r ai l r oader , Rever end Br ady Cr oy pr eached t o Whi t e and Bl ack al i ke r i ght i n t hi s cl ump of t r ees . Not much l ef t of t he gr ove now. ” 256 Es t he r Jone s & Wake For e s t Communi t y—Me mor i al Day We e ke nd 1982 Re c or de d by: Cl yde Ke s s l e r & John Ni c ol ay Not e s Pr e par e d by: Mor gan Cai n Se t t i ng of I nt e r vi e w: The set t i ng of t hi s r ecor ded event i s t he Wake For es t Pent ecos t al Chur ch. The event i s Communi t y Day i n whi ch l ocal s and vi s i t or s have come t o Wake For es t f or a homecomi ng event whi ch i s cel ebr at ed by r ecogni zi ng honor ar y el der s , j oi ni ng i n hymns , shar i ng Wake For es t hi s t or y, gi vi ng t es t i moni es , l i f t i ng up pr ayer s , and r ecei vi ng a l ove of f er i ng f or t he Wake For es t Communi t y f und. Not e s : Al t hough t he t ape t hat r ecor ded t hi s event i s f i l l ed wi t h cel ebr at or y mus i c f or t he Communi t y day event at Wake For es t Pent ecos t al Chur ch, t he wor ds bel ow ar e t hose shar ed bet ween songs by cer t ai n communi t y member s . The ent i r e event was not r ecor ded on t ape; cer t ai n song sel ect i ons and speaker s wer e not i ncl uded. Ther ef or e, t her e i s mi nor di scont i nui t y i n what i s r ecor ded. When communi t y member s speak bet ween songs , t her e i s of t en a r eact i on f r om t he congr egat i on. Of t en a col l ect i ve r esponse, or r esponses , f r om t he congr egat i on was pr omi nent . Those col l ect i ve r esponses wer e i ncl uded. [ Ti me checks i ndi cat ed] {Descr i pt i on or cl ar i t y of ques t i ons , answers , and phys i cal r esponses}. {The t ape whi ch recorded Communi t y Day begi ns wi t h a br i ef i nt ervi ew. Thi s i nt ervi ew i s cut shor t by s i ngi ng whi ch was recorded over t he t aped i nt ervi ew. Si gni ng t hroughout t he t ape cont r i but es t he great es t por t i on of t he recorded mat er i al . No s i ngers or song t i t l es have been i ndi cat ed, onl y t he speakers bet ween songs}. [ 18: 17] Es t he r Jone s : “ You know i t ’ s j us t so sweet t hi s eveni ng t o be saved. ” Congr e gat i on: “ Amen. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ I ask some ques t i ons t hi s eveni ng: Chur ch ar e you r eady?” Congr e gat i on: “ Oh, ar e you r eady? Amen. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ I ’ m r eady! I t ’ s t i me t o get r eady. ” 257 Congr e gat i on: “ Oh Amen. Yes . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ Because t i me i s mar chi ng on. ” Congr e gat i on: “ Oh yes , Lor d. ” Es t he r Jone s : “ But i f you haven’ t t as t ed t hi s , you don’ t know what i t ’ s al l about . ” Congr e gat i on: “ Oh yes . Al r i ght . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ You may t hi nk you’ r e havi ng a good t i me out i n t he wor l d and t hi ngs l i ke t hat , but once you get t hat s al vat i on, t hat ’ s somet hi ng wi t hi n you—” Congr e gat i on: “ Oh yes . ” Es t he r Jone s : “ You’ l l know what i t ’ s al l about . What makes i t so sweet i s whi l e we’ r e her e s er vi ng t he Lor d and goi ng on i n hi s name and t hi ngs don’ t go l i ke we want t hem t o go, we have a consol at i on: we’ r e goi ng t hr ough t r i al s and t r i bul at i ons , but i t wi l l al l be over i n a l i t t l e whi l e. ” Congr e gat i on: “ Oh yes ! Amen. Hal l el ui ah! ” {Es t her Jones t hen asks f or t he of f er i ng t o be l i f t ed up t o God by t wo ushers . One of t he men Es t er asks t o come t ake t he of f er i ng i s Arnol d Jones , her son. He shares i n det ai l why t he of f er i ng i s bei ng t aken f or t hi s event as wel l as hi s ent hus i asm t o be f rom Wake Fores t }. [ 9: 30] Ar nol d Jone s : “ Pr ai se t he Lor d, God. We’ r e so pr oud of Wake For es t because t hi s i s wher e we’ r e f r om. Amen. Gi ve us a bi g cheer . ” [ 10: 11] Ar nol d Jone s : “ I woul d j us t l i ke t o s ay t hat we’ r e her e t o r ecei ve t hi s , an of f er i ng f or our communi t y. Al l t he many pr oceeds go i n—f r om t hi s weekend—go i nt o our communi t y f und. Our communi t y f und was s t ar t ed—l i ke our s i s t er has s ai d—f i ve year ago. We s t ar t ed i t as a f und t hat woul d hel p us , ah, r ej uvenat e our cemet er y. And s i nce t hen, t he Lor d has s ent f or t h f or us t o move f or war d and do ot her t hi ngs . We sponsor a f un day f or yout h of al l ages t o come out t o be wi t h us and t hi s i s an annual af f ai r . Now i f you haven’ t at t ended one of our yout h Sat ur days on t he 258 Labor Day weekend, we t r ul y i nvi t e each and ever y one of you t o come and be wi t h us . We had a good, wonder f ul t i me yes t er day. I even woke up t hi s mor ni ng and I wasn’ t even sor e af t er al l t he t hi ngs I di d and I pr ai se God f or t hat . So you ar e i nvi t ed. “ Not onl y do we do t hi s as sponsor and gi ve r ef r eshment s t o ever yone t hat day, but al so i n our communi t y, we, t hi s i s t he or gani zat i on t hat sponsor s al l t he f l ower - gi vi ng, and al l t he f i nanci al hel p t o ones l es s f or t unat e t han we ar e. And so we ar e t r ul y—as t he Lor d pr osper s us—we’ r e goi ng t o t r y t o expand and do mor e t hi ngs t o hel p out t he ci t i zens of t hi s communi t y, t he ones who ar e i n need. And we ar e abl e t o show t hem a t oken of our l ove and so t hi s i s t he one t i me of t he year t hat we gat her t oget her f or al l of us t o gi ve. And t he onl y t hi ng t hat we ask of each f ami l y i s f or each f ami l y member t o gi ve us at l eas t t wel ve dol l ar s , t hat ’ s a dol l ar a mont h. That ’ s not ver y much, i s i t , i n t oday’ s economy? Now a l ot of peopl e gi ve us mor e, we pr ai se God f or t hat . Al so, we r ecei ve—whi ch wi l l be ment i oned l at er —we r ecei ve donat i ons f r om out s i de of t he communi t y of peopl e t hat have once l i ved her e, and we pr ai se God f or t hat al so. So we want you t o gi ve. I f t hi s i s your f i r s t t i me gi vi ng, we’ l l accept your check f or t wo hundr ed dol l ar s {Laughi ng wi t h congregat i on}. Pr ai se t he Lor d. But i f i t ’ s not your f i r s t t i me gi vi ng, t hen pl ease—i f you wi l l —pl ease gi ve us t he t wel ve dol l ar s and we woul d gl adl y appr eci at e i t . But what ever you gi ve, l et ’ s gi ve wi t h l ove i n our hear t , Amen?” Congr e gat i on: “ Amen. ” [ 17: 00- 21: 00] {Es t her Jones begi ns gi vi ng recogni t i on t o El der s : Mi s s . Ot ey, Mi s s . Kat e Fears . and f ormer communi t y mai l man, Fred}. [ 34: 02] Es t he r Jone s : “ We l i ve one day at a t i me because t omor r ow may never be her e. Li ve ever yday, l i ve out ever yday, l i ke i t ’ s t he l as t day we’ r e goi ng t o l i ve on ear t h. We don’ t know. We don’ t know about t omor r ow. ” [ 37: 07] {Announcement about Mot her Mayo’ s Founders ’ Day}. Es t he r Jone s : “ The Lor d gave her a vi s i on, a l ong t i me ago of t he f i r s t uni on ever hel d at our chur ch was , you know, hel d i n Wake For es t . And so t hey have a cel ebr at i on, Founder s ’ Day pr ogr am f or her , and i t ’ s one day out of t he year s et as i de. And she’ s gr owi ng ver y f eebl e. Toget her f r om some of t he t hi ngs she sai d at t he convocat i on l as t week—I ’ m not s ayi ng she’ s goi ng t o pas s away, but we al l know t hat we’ r e al l goi ng t o l eave t hi s wor l d someday—and she di dn’ t ask t hem {t he Pent ecos t al di s t r i ct commi t t ee t hat pl ans Founder ’ s Day}, she t ol d t hem, she want ed her 259 Founder s ’ Day t o be t hi s year her e i n Wake For es t . So i t i s goi ng t o be at our chur ch next Sat ur day at 11: 00. And she i s 90 year s ol d. I ’ m a t el l you t hat much r i ght now, and s t i l l goi ng s t r ong; I mean doi ng r emar kabl e f or t hat age. ” 260 Appendix B; John Nicolay Report on Wake Forest, 1983: Virginia Tech Special Collections Library, John Nicolay Papers, 1792-1985, collection number: Ms87-027 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 Appendix C Selections from Patricia Johnson’s Kentland At Whitethorne, Walpa Publishing, 1995. Walpa Publishing has consented that the following selections of Kentland At Whitethorne may be used to enrich this research. 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 Appendix D; Founders Day Program by Benzena Eaves, 2004: 306 Appendix E 1) 1928, Wake Forest Baptist Church land deed, Montgomery County Courthouse 307 Appendix E 2) 1871, African Methodist Episcopal Church land deed, Montgomery County Courthouse: Book S, pages: 474-475. The church is suspected to have been located on the current-day, Big Vain Rd. 308 309 Appendix E 3) 1921, Wake Forest Holiness Church land deed, Montgomery County Courthouse: Deed Book Volume 74, pages 401-402. Specifies the church to be used for “religious purposes only.” 310 Appendix F; Two-page selection of Ophelia Bolland’s transcribed interview with Clyde Kessler, 1982 311 312 Appendix G; Consent forms for participants interviewed by Morgan Cain 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326