WEBVTT

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Good evening, everyone. Thank you very much for

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being here. Thank you to our Panelists for being

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here. We are here to celebrate open access Week

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and to talk about journal publishing and Oh, thank

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you. Hi. My name is my name is

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Anita Walls. I work as a faculty member here

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in the library, on open educational resources, satellite

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communications and other things. And yeah, we're delighted

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that you're here. Thank you for coming. And

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we hope that this is fun and that you can

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have We can have a relaxed conversation about these topics

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. I want to also thank our director of scholarly

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communication scale McMillan and our dean, Dr Tyler Walters

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, for sponsoring this event. Um, and our

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co chair. I'm sorry, Our committee chair,

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Philip Young. Um, Philip is going to see

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a three routes about access. Sure. I just

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wanted to point out for everyone that we have the

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handout on the back table of our schedule for the

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week. We have eight events this year, so

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and we had three just yesterday. So this is

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our fourth. We have events about our open access

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suspension fund. Coming up Thursday in particular is an

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interesting event because we have the Center for Open Science

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coming here to this room at three o'clock to run

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a workshop on reproducible research practices. So that's,

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uh, sort of a last minute addition. And

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we hope we get a really good turnout for that

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event. And on the reverse side, we have

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some of the services that we're developing here in the

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libraries, such as our open access, some pension

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fund for those journals that have article processing charges,

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we have journal publishing here, which we've actually had

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for years and years. We have more than 20

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journals hosted here in the library. So when we

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host the open journal systems O. J s here

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for any faculty for graduate student who wants to start

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a journal, um, or transition on. It's

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got a society journal to open access. We certainly

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would like to talk to anyone who wants to do

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that. And, of course, we have V

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. Tech works as our institutional repository, uh,

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to host all sorts of styling materials, not just

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journal articles, book chapters, presentations, um,

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data, Anything else? Uh, that needs archiving

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, uh, as well as access. We also

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provide some copyright guidance. So We'd love to hear

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feedback on how these services can be improved as well

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as any new services that we can provide to help

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. Uh, scholars here at Virginia Tech provide their

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work openly. Yeah, we also have sign up

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sheets at the back of the room. Uh,

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there's a list for if you like. You know

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, like Reddit for this event. We also have

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a checkmark. If you'd like to be added to

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our open V. T. Uh, email list

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. So that list is focusing on the three areas

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that are committee focuses on which is open access,

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open data and open educational resources. So we're trying

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to do is create a community here at Virginia Tech

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that discusses these issues, um, and develops new

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programs and sort of creates a culture of openness here

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at Virginia Tech. We also have evaluations, but

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on the back table. So we owe on the

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seats as well. So we'd love to get any

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feedback that you have about this and that other events

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that we can provide you. So thank you very

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much for coming, and I'll turn it back over

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to an even fact. Okay, so we have

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selected Panelists from a wide range with a wide range

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of experiences in scholarly publishing and other types of publications

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. Um, we hope that this will be engaging

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and lively. We want your questions. We want

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your comments. So don't be shy. Um,

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the For the university libraries, open access is a

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really important topic. We spend around$7 million a

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year on subscriptions for scholarly publications. This is a

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huge amount of money and a lot of respects.

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It's not very sustainable, um, to be producing

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research in the university and sell and buying it back

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from publishers. So part of the reason to have

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this conversation tonight is to hear about your experiences with

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publishing, um, with open access, your thoughts

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about the benefits, the drawbacks, um, these

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types of things. And, um, we all

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have to learn to learn something. So I'd like

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to introduce our Panelists. Um, this is Juliana

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Lazar, Dr Juliana Star. She's an associate professor

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in the biological Sciences. Next to her is Michelle

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Sutherland. Michelle is currently the advertising advisor of Educational

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Media Company. She's a Virginia Tech grad and former

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editor's editor of The Collegiate Times, as well as

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below to the student run journal, Open access journal

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. Um, Dr Nicholas Tiedemann is the chair and

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professor of the economics department. Dr. Randall Wins

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is the, um, is a professor of forestry

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research and environmental conservation. Um, Christian Mattias is

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the past is a doctoral student in the past,

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editor of Spectra. Uh, and you do something

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else to which I have forgotten. Um, and

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you're a doctoral candidate, not a student. Excellent

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. Um, in ethics and political philosophy. And

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Caitlin Rivers, um, is also a doctoral student

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, and, um, is in the genetics,

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bioinformatics and computational biology department and is also a fellow

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of the Please remind me, Department of Defense.

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Thank you. And we will hear more from her

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. So, um, we'd like for each of

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you to talk for about five minutes. Um,

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tell us about your experience in publishing your thoughts about

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open access. We will tell you when you're out

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of time, and then we'll go through. We'll

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talk through some questions and also take questions from the

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audience. Would you like to go first? Sure

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. Um so Good evening. I'm in biological sciences

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. We do research on breast cancer, south cycle

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and essentially all our research is using advanced mass spectrometry

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and proteomics technologies. As a result, we generate

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very large data set. We spend a lot of

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time in analyzing this data and, uh, as

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it evolved in the past years, we are looking

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at open access to as a better way to disseminate

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our findings, the knowledge to reach a broader audience

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outside our own field and also as a result of

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page limitations. The number of publications is increasing every

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year, and in regular journals lately, they limit

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your publication ability to, let's say, 7000 pages

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, 7000 words. Sorry. And we cannot make

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our case in that many words. So open access

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groups to be very good Alternative shell Sutherland. Um

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, I worked with philology when I was an undergraduate

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, and that is a completely free publication available on

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our website. Um, it is the undergraduate research

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journal for the College of Liberal Arts and Human Sciences

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. So it features research from all those various disciplines

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. Um, I guess I became very interested in

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open access after I graduated, because between being a

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student and before beginning working with tech, uh,

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there was a gap where I didn't really have access

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to a lot of information that I found previously Very

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interesting. Um, and what struck me is really

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interesting was as a student, I was really encouraged

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to, um, you know, look beyond the

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classroom and read more. But then once I graduated

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, um, and I didn't have access. It

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was kind of like a switch, um, which

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was a little bit troubling for me. Um and

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so it really kind of made me think a lot

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more about philology and the role that, uh,

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that journals and magazines like that can play. And

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, um, sort of really enhancing the undergraduate experience

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after the classroom. My experience as an economist or

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my perspective as an economist is probably more interesting than

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my publications experience. Or I'd like to give you

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an economist perspective. An open access. It's a

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good idea. Um, the opposite of open access

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, you might say, is gated access and the

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trouble with gated access has What was your name again

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, Michelle pointed out, is that it deprives people

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of a valuable opportunity, huh? The cost of

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providing information to one additional person with an Internet system

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is essentially zero. And so there's some loss of

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efficiencies of something that costs nothing to provide isn't made

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available to people to whom it's worth a lot.

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Uh, and if we tried to collect from everybody

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who could use it, there would be excess profit

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. The monopoly profits and such monopoly profit is,

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uh, not very useful you. Now we do

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need some kind of system to make sure that people

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who do productive things are rewarded and giving people a

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monopoly when they provide knowledge is a second best solution

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that has been derived, uh, to make sure

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that people at least have some incentive to come up

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with information. So it's interesting to ask, Is

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there some other way of providing the incentive that people

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will need to do these valuable things? We might

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look first at Ireland, which has an interesting picture

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that income from artistic work isn't subject to the income

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tax. So it seems to me that might be

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interesting as a kind of compromise to propose that copyrights

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to be shortened to something like three years. In

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exchange for a provision that nobody would have to pay

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income tax on the money that they earned from the

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three year period of copyright, I think that most

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novelists make enough money in the first three years of

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the publication that we, uh, much more valuable

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than, uh, yeah, lifetime copyright subject to

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an income tax. So that's one interesting thing to

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think about, but it's also interesting to think about

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trying to do it without copyright altogether. Now,

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you could propose that, uh, money B provided

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by the public sector to compensate people for their artistic

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efforts. But there are two problems. One is

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how you decide how much money and what do you

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do about the fact that taxes generally have what economists

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call an excess burden the cost more than the money

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that they raise? Uh, so I've been thinking

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about the possibility of integrating copyright into a theory of

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global social justice that I have. This theory begins

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with the proposition that people have equal rights to the

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Earth so that any country that uses more than its

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share of natural opportunities those compensation to those who have

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less than their share. And if this proposition were

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accepted, then one of the ways in which nations

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who owe something to others because of taking more than

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their share of natural opportunities might compensate the others is

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by providing technology or providing new ideas. So I

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envisioned a system of global assessors that assess how much

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, uh, more than their share nations appropriate,

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and then how much the rest of the word world

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benefits from the things that they provide. And if

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we had such a system, then it would be

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natural for the nation's to pass on to the creators

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of knowledge the benefits they got from having their contributions

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of the world counted as part of their compensation for

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having more than their share of natural opportunities. Mhm

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, yes, well, I'm ready when I'm in

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forest resources and environmental conservation and have been very involved

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in this whole movement for a very long time.

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And, um, it's been trying to engage myself

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with the library as they've been engaged with it as

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well. My subject area is remote, sensing research

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and using remote sensing, financial resource assessment, environmental

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monitoring. So there are some very specific issues that

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arise as you start to think about this kind of

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work because the data themselves are increasingly openly available and

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we're making moves towards more open access publishing. I'm

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an associate editor for a journal called Remote Sensing that

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is actually probably fourth or fifth of the 20 or

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so remote sensing journals that are in terms of rank

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. I saw impact factor and that sort of thing

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. But one of the things that's been a really

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interesting challenges how to really kind of foster this culture

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of reproducibility in an era where you can download data

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, but you can't take your algorithm to the data

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. And so we've been actually trying to foster a

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computational environment where actually, as you publish, you

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could actually have your data set there, your code

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set. Their people could actually, um, you

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know, at least for a sample, dataset could

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actually run it themselves and take a look right as

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they are evaluating the work. And the whole idea

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is to bring algorithms to data to kind of enhance

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that reproducibility so you can download the code. You

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can do it yourself, you can modify it.

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But the data themselves might not necessarily have to be

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pulled every time to a user because the data could

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sit in a repository. We take the algorithms to

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the data. So we've been working very closely with

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our, uh computational team here at Virginia Tech with

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Arc and basically turn to foster that kind of environment

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for selected subsets of the data types that we commonly

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utilized. So there you know, some interesting things

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in which we've been trying to work a couple other

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issues and that I wanted to bring up for this

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kind of broader discussion. One is the occasionally perverse

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incentives that open access journal publishers have because the model

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has changed. If essentially the scientist is paying or

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their institutions paying for publication, your incentive as a

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journal becomes, let's get as many of those papers

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in as I can because I'm gonna get$1000 or

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$1500 or whatever it is for every paper. And

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that's how I'm making my money. Whereas before your

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l severe and you want to sell a package to

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Virginia Tech, what you want is the journals that

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have essentially are the go to places for the scientists

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, such that the scientists are going to basically lobby

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the library to get that journal so that they can

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be up on the field. And so the journals

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incentive in that instance is to be the best possible

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journal they can. So sometimes you'll see that some

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of the open access journals, especially those that are

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, you know, a little less reputable, are

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essentially just trying to publish papers because their their model

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is very different. There there, there's some kind

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of strange and perverse incentives that sometimes go on,

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and I see this as an editor. It's very

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, very tricky. Um, and our rejection rate

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has gotten sky high because people are just throwing anything

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in that you have to. At this point,

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we don't even be review at all. It is

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rejected before it goes to peer review. Only the

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highest caliber things are sent on to to peer review

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. The other thing I wanted to bring up for

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this group is the possibility, and our does this

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frequently with the library's assistance is essentially to develop inability

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to cite your data. Actually get a digital object

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identifier for datasets uh, to essentially have those accessible

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in your journal articles openly, hopefully open access and

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essentially have two streams were developing a really need A

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to set becomes as big a contribution in some instances

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as the science that results from this particular data.

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The other thing is having been a Peace Corps volunteer

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. I wanted to bring up this issue of open

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access, which vastly improves access to information in places

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that can't pay for the gate, as you mentioned

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. But again, there's a an additional complication and

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that if you're a scientist in one of those places

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that has limited resources, you might find it harder

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to publish under this model. You know, if

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you're having lived in places where the per capita income

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is less than half of what it would take to

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publish one article, it becomes a very difficult sort

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of a barrier in a different way. You know

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, it's a barrier to being a contributor instead of

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a barrier to being a consumer. So, um

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, you know, it's not. There are things

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that we as you try to fix one thing.

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You sometimes see some interesting things evolve as you as

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you migrate floors. I just thought I'd bring some

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of those to the fourth chatting. I didn't think

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I was this involved in open access until I got

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the invitation and then and sort of put the pieces

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together. Oh, yeah, about seven years ago

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, Uh, there was a movement by some underrepresented

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communities, uh, were trying to set up campus

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centers, try to set centers of data and centers

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of resources on campuses around the country. And I've

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been involved with setting one of those up, um

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, and found it frustrating how difficult it was to

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get the wheel. I knew people that invented the

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wheel, and I didn't want to invent the wheel

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. So after spending a couple of years inventing the

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wheel I took from Oregon State University of Penn State

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, a database of the wheel and this wheel is

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the metaphor for all of the stuff we used to

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set up a centre to set up staffing and all

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sorts of things. And, um, about two

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years into my time at Penn State started talking to

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colleagues about what we made an open access. I

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didn't actually use the language of the time. What

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if we made this available? And we then ask

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colleagues around the country to take all of the stuff

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that they had very carefully protected, are very suspicious

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of everyone using, and we created a an accessible

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database for people trying to set up these sorts of

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centres elsewhere around the country, if not internationally,

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found a group of private donors, very wealthy private

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donors in Manhattan, and had to convince them that

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we were going to convince our colleagues to give up

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access to things that they had built their careers on

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, put it in the public forum, and an

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undergraduate student came to us. He was actually very

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good at coding. We wanted to develop the weapon

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or face, and he said, um, I

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think we need what you want is open access open

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content and, um, we set up the database

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. We got it running, we got the money

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. And since then, I've been involved with about

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six or seven different open access publications in various ways

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as a contributor as an editor, and I actually

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think, um, I've learned more from people doing

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open access, and I've contributed, so I contribute

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my work to an open access for him. But

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the people who are really involved in open access keep

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teaching me about these bizarre restraints I placed on myself

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when I write the quality of what I let me

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make a comparison, there's, um, a burgeoning

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model of distributive justice called Universal Basic Income. But

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if you want to count, your society is just

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you count your society is just depending on what is

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the basic income that everyone can count on. Without

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question. It's pre work. You turn 18,

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you are guaranteed by our society to receive a certain

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kind of basic income. And when I started to

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put this stuff together, I realized I should worry

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about the quality of what I'm writing and publishing if

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there is not universal basic access to it in the

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general public. Because while peer review among scholars with

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similar training matters a lot, if I have any

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commitment to land grant mission, if I any commitment

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to my scholarship having any importance in the public,

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some of the quality of my work depends on what

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people in the public can do with it and how

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they can access it. And putting the U.

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B I Universal basic income model into a universal basic

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access model in my head made me start worrying about

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open access issues and quality of publications. In a

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way, I hadn't and had that obnoxious little undergrad

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not like nudged me with this really cool anarchist ideas

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. Um, I would never have noticed I think

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so. I'm still learning, um, and trying

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to maintain some suspicion about publication forums that try to

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get me to close access and who benefits ultimately or

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what's the What's the quality of work I produce in

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that narrow minded frame? Um, yeah, I'm

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still figuring it out. My name is Caitlin Rivers

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. I'm a PhD student in computational epidemiology, and

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my research really drives a lot of my ideas about

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open access. So I'm interested in tracking and modeling

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emerging infectious diseases. So in something like age seven

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and nine, or murders or Ebola comes around,

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I take publicly available data, for example, media

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reports. And I use that to assemble my data

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set. And from there, I build models that

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hopefully helped to inform outbreak outbreak response as the outbreak

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is happening. And so the whole pipeline from start

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to finish really has to be open because how are

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you going to help inform outbreak response? If first

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of all your results are available to the people who

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really need it most, most people in West Africa

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do not have journal subscriptions. Um, and second

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of all, if if I'm using these open data

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sources as my research inputs, and it really makes

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sense that my outputs should also be publicly available.

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So I think that open science is a really important

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movement for global public health, and that's sort of

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the direction that I approach it from. So I

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would love to hear from our Panelists or from the

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audience. What do you understand open access to be

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because we're all talking around it, but we haven't

412
00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:36.960 A:middle L:90%
decided. So does anyone want to take a staff

413
00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:42.829 A:middle L:90%
? I can try, uh, so I understand

414
00:23:42.829 --> 00:23:47.710 A:middle L:90%
open access and a journal perspective to be research that

415
00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:49.930 A:middle L:90%
is published without eating a subscription, basically, so

416
00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:53.650 A:middle L:90%
you can access it for free. Um, usually

417
00:23:53.650 --> 00:23:56.460 A:middle L:90%
, as other Panelists I mentioned, that means that

418
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:57.490 A:middle L:90%
the researcher has to pay to get it published,

419
00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.650 A:middle L:90%
so it's not a completely free system, but it

420
00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:07.079 A:middle L:90%
is free for the readers. I would I would

421
00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:10.079 A:middle L:90%
want to pull something out from that. I like

422
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.490 A:middle L:90%
that. Whoever accesses it gives as little thought as

423
00:24:14.490 --> 00:24:17.069 A:middle L:90%
possible to having to pay for it. I mean

424
00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:18.579 A:middle L:90%
, the idea of any compensation just never enters their

425
00:24:18.579 --> 00:24:22.269 A:middle L:90%
mind. It's just available. So none of these

426
00:24:22.269 --> 00:24:26.480 A:middle L:90%
cues none of these strange little, uh tweaks that

427
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:27.470 A:middle L:90%
make people think they're going to have to trade something

428
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.460 A:middle L:90%
for it. Uh, sort of pre cognitive there

429
00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:34.960 A:middle L:90%
. Oh, I think I would take issue with

430
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:40.829 A:middle L:90%
Wikipedia is a fantastic resource for me. And every

431
00:24:40.829 --> 00:24:42.569 A:middle L:90%
now and then they asked for contributions, and I'm

432
00:24:42.569 --> 00:24:45.420 A:middle L:90%
happy to contribute to Wikipedia. Now, I understand

433
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:48.329 A:middle L:90%
that some people may not be able to contribute other

434
00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:51.160 A:middle L:90%
people who contribute a lot, but it seems to

435
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.259 A:middle L:90%
me that it's really nice to think that Wikipedia can

436
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:57.250 A:middle L:90%
get by without restricting access. But just by asking

437
00:24:57.250 --> 00:25:00.910 A:middle L:90%
every now and then for contributions and enough people are

438
00:25:00.910 --> 00:25:04.930 A:middle L:90%
willing to contribute to keep the thing going. Yeah

439
00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:07.589 A:middle L:90%
, I actually like this a lot. Let me

440
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:08.940 A:middle L:90%
me let me take a different version of it.

441
00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:14.170 A:middle L:90%
Um uh, more like more like a gift.

442
00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:15.599 A:middle L:90%
Yes. Um, something a bit more like a

443
00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:18.609 A:middle L:90%
gift where there's a gifting relationship which I think harmonizes

444
00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:22.240 A:middle L:90%
between both of what you said. And I've said

445
00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:25.039 A:middle L:90%
I just didn't say eloquently enough. Uh huh.

446
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.380 A:middle L:90%
Mhm. I don't have all that much experience with

447
00:25:32.390 --> 00:25:34.130 A:middle L:90%
open access, but it's a puzzle to me that

448
00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:38.000 A:middle L:90%
it should be expensive to put things into open access

449
00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:41.599 A:middle L:90%
. Now I'm trying to figure out what the payment

450
00:25:41.609 --> 00:25:45.500 A:middle L:90%
from the contributors pays for it. And to some

451
00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:48.829 A:middle L:90%
extent it's to compensate the editors, I suppose.

452
00:25:48.849 --> 00:25:52.589 A:middle L:90%
And yet it seems to me that it ought to

453
00:25:52.589 --> 00:25:57.349 A:middle L:90%
be possible to, uh, find ways of sorting

454
00:25:57.349 --> 00:26:00.259 A:middle L:90%
through what's worth publishing what isn't without it being so

455
00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:04.089 A:middle L:90%
expensive. Uh huh. Maybe some of the costs

456
00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:07.829 A:middle L:90%
would be put on two people. Some of the

457
00:26:07.829 --> 00:26:10.680 A:middle L:90%
costs would be put on the people who submit things

458
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:15.569 A:middle L:90%
. But still, if 95% of the stuff you

459
00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:17.539 A:middle L:90%
take a glass at and you say no, not

460
00:26:17.539 --> 00:26:29.259 A:middle L:90%
interested, that shouldn't cost that much. Yeah,

461
00:26:29.269 --> 00:26:32.430 A:middle L:90%
I want to take a sort of circle back around

462
00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:34.890 A:middle L:90%
to the beginning of the introduction, and this is

463
00:26:34.890 --> 00:26:37.900 A:middle L:90%
really a question for the faculty on the panel.

464
00:26:37.910 --> 00:26:42.549 A:middle L:90%
But it was sparked by this is the our doctoral

465
00:26:42.549 --> 00:26:47.630 A:middle L:90%
students and Michelle and the way that they became involved

466
00:26:47.630 --> 00:26:51.029 A:middle L:90%
in open access. And I think both Michelle Christians

467
00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:55.160 A:middle L:90%
, but really eloquently about what triggered the need to

468
00:26:55.539 --> 00:26:56.869 A:middle L:90%
follow open access for Kushner was a need for a

469
00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.289 A:middle L:90%
tool, right? And for Michelle, it was

470
00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:02.680 A:middle L:90%
like a switch. It turned out access has really

471
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:03.960 A:middle L:90%
turned up when she was no longer a student.

472
00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:08.460 A:middle L:90%
Um and so that right there points to one of

473
00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:14.519 A:middle L:90%
the incentives for for open access, sort of beyond

474
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.200 A:middle L:90%
the academy or at the student level in practical terms

475
00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:21.839 A:middle L:90%
. But my question for you guys, the fact

476
00:27:22.329 --> 00:27:25.319 A:middle L:90%
that you know for a while and I think there's

477
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.230 A:middle L:90%
a shift now, especially in the sciences, maybe

478
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:32.450 A:middle L:90%
more blatantly in the humanities a sort of stigma in

479
00:27:32.450 --> 00:27:33.680 A:middle L:90%
the past has been associated with open access. That

480
00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:38.460 A:middle L:90%
peer review wasn't as rigorous or radio alluded to effective

481
00:27:40.539 --> 00:27:45.259 A:middle L:90%
. It could be a perverse incentives the author pain

482
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:52.230 A:middle L:90%
publication fee and so forth. So my question is

483
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.839 A:middle L:90%
really is at what point, um, did open

484
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.119 A:middle L:90%
access sort of loon on your horizon. And at

485
00:28:00.130 --> 00:28:04.759 A:middle L:90%
what point? Whether being involved in publishing itself or

486
00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:10.079 A:middle L:90%
publishing an open access article open did open access to

487
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.039 A:middle L:90%
become a viable route for getting your scholarship and your

488
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.960 A:middle L:90%
information? At what point do become a viable for

489
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:25.579 A:middle L:90%
going down the okay, I want to grab,

490
00:28:25.589 --> 00:28:27.460 A:middle L:90%
disappoint you by act, answering a kind of opposite

491
00:28:27.470 --> 00:28:30.230 A:middle L:90%
question. Uh, one of the places where I

492
00:28:30.230 --> 00:28:33.480 A:middle L:90%
published is the journal Public Choice. Public Choice was

493
00:28:33.490 --> 00:28:37.660 A:middle L:90%
founded here at Virginia Tech. By Gordon Talaq Back

494
00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:41.920 A:middle L:90%
in 19 sixties, perhaps, uh, in the

495
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.480 A:middle L:90%
19 eighties the Public Choice Society so public choice to

496
00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:49.910 A:middle L:90%
one of the European publishers journals for, uh,

497
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:52.769 A:middle L:90%
Inter, immediately large sum. And within a few

498
00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:56.839 A:middle L:90%
years the subscription price has gone up from$50 to

499
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:03.500 A:middle L:90%
something like$800. The commercial publisher realized that it

500
00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:07.190 A:middle L:90%
was worth a lot more as a monopoly game,

501
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:11.349 A:middle L:90%
severely gated thing that it had been as a scholarly

502
00:29:11.349 --> 00:29:14.490 A:middle L:90%
thing, uh, published on a non profit basis

503
00:29:14.509 --> 00:29:18.910 A:middle L:90%
. So I was really disappointed in Public Choice society

504
00:29:18.910 --> 00:29:21.730 A:middle L:90%
. They didn't realize that when a lot of money

505
00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:23.390 A:middle L:90%
was offered for their publication, that was a sign

506
00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:27.059 A:middle L:90%
that it was worth a lot and therefore probably shouldn't

507
00:29:27.069 --> 00:29:30.710 A:middle L:90%
be sold. So, uh, it seems to

508
00:29:30.710 --> 00:29:33.519 A:middle L:90%
me that sometime in the 19 eighties, uh,

509
00:29:33.529 --> 00:29:37.930 A:middle L:90%
the world of big publishers got the idea that here

510
00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:41.880 A:middle L:90%
was a chance to make a lot of money by

511
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.730 A:middle L:90%
putting up a lot of gates, and that was

512
00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:49.359 A:middle L:90%
a a bad thing to happen in the academic community

513
00:29:49.369 --> 00:29:55.200 A:middle L:90%
. We had a model before then of publications that

514
00:29:55.210 --> 00:30:00.009 A:middle L:90%
were run by mhm academic societies and cost a bit

515
00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:03.259 A:middle L:90%
, but not all that much. And then in

516
00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:07.200 A:middle L:90%
a relatively short time that got turned around. So

517
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.309 A:middle L:90%
it it really would be nice to go back to

518
00:30:10.309 --> 00:30:14.380 A:middle L:90%
the old way of doing things, man, to

519
00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:17.920 A:middle L:90%
continue just a bit. I was interested to hear

520
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:21.559 A:middle L:90%
the idea presented by yesterday speaker of having a time

521
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:23.789 A:middle L:90%
when all the universities got together. They said no

522
00:30:23.789 --> 00:30:26.660 A:middle L:90%
more subscriptions. And he mentioned that there might be

523
00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:32.710 A:middle L:90%
antitrust problems with that. This conspiracy in restraint of

524
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:36.180 A:middle L:90%
trade against the publication. I'm not enough of a

525
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:37.269 A:middle L:90%
lawyer to know the INS and out of that one

526
00:30:37.269 --> 00:30:41.779 A:middle L:90%
, but I can see possible trouble there. And

527
00:30:41.779 --> 00:30:44.599 A:middle L:90%
there's also the possible trouble that that might say,

528
00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:48.589 A:middle L:90%
Okay, uh, you don't stop your subscriptions,

529
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.609 A:middle L:90%
but we're now going to, uh, live in

530
00:30:51.609 --> 00:30:53.670 A:middle L:90%
your online access to all the things we've done in

531
00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:56.470 A:middle L:90%
the past, and you're going to have to go

532
00:30:56.470 --> 00:30:57.339 A:middle L:90%
to the library with the paper copy. If you

533
00:30:57.339 --> 00:31:00.559 A:middle L:90%
want to look at anything that's been published in the

534
00:31:00.569 --> 00:31:04.769 A:middle L:90%
past, which would be a severe restriction on our

535
00:31:04.779 --> 00:31:10.049 A:middle L:90%
access, um, or maybe maybe pear use would

536
00:31:10.049 --> 00:31:15.259 A:middle L:90%
say that we can make a copies available on the

537
00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:19.380 A:middle L:90%
line to our citizens and faculty from the paper.

538
00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:22.880 A:middle L:90%
Copy. We have that. That would be something

539
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.500 A:middle L:90%
that would have to be thought through to, uh

540
00:31:26.509 --> 00:31:29.650 A:middle L:90%
I've also thought about the possibility of trying to persuade

541
00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:34.859 A:middle L:90%
Congress to seize these copyrights by eminent domain with compensation

542
00:31:36.339 --> 00:31:38.369 A:middle L:90%
. It's interesting to think about whether something of that

543
00:31:38.369 --> 00:31:41.279 A:middle L:90%
sort could ever happen. So I'm sorry. Your

544
00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:45.150 A:middle L:90%
question provoked me to say, uh, go off

545
00:31:45.150 --> 00:31:47.240 A:middle L:90%
in a different direction. But maybe somebody else would

546
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:53.529 A:middle L:90%
like to answer your question. Mhm. I remember

547
00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:59.569 A:middle L:90%
the question was, Are a need for open accent

548
00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:02.990 A:middle L:90%
is driven by the nature of the data, the

549
00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:07.730 A:middle L:90%
nature of the results we want to publish in terms

550
00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:14.759 A:middle L:90%
of concerns. Costs for us are always a concern

551
00:32:15.109 --> 00:32:17.650 A:middle L:90%
in for the open access journals in my area that

552
00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:23.650 A:middle L:90%
cost between$1,702,500. At this stage, it wouldn't

553
00:32:23.650 --> 00:32:27.849 A:middle L:90%
be possible to publish all our results to open access

554
00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:30.849 A:middle L:90%
. Our research responded to brands. We cannot over

555
00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:37.029 A:middle L:90%
that published publications from a grant and pay for each

556
00:32:37.029 --> 00:32:42.849 A:middle L:90%
of them in terms of reviews you mentioned. And

557
00:32:42.849 --> 00:32:46.869 A:middle L:90%
if you are review quality yeah, we had a

558
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:52.940 A:middle L:90%
pretty good experience. We published in BMC Cancer one

559
00:32:52.940 --> 00:32:59.660 A:middle L:90%
of the second publication was was handled a little bit

560
00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:02.160 A:middle L:90%
slowly, so that tended to be a bit annoying

561
00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:05.900 A:middle L:90%
. Other than that, I think it was handled

562
00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:08.980 A:middle L:90%
very fairly. And given the fact that the name

563
00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:13.880 A:middle L:90%
of the reviewers are known, I think they also

564
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:17.529 A:middle L:90%
make an effort to make a fair and just review

565
00:33:17.539 --> 00:33:21.740 A:middle L:90%
. So I don't think I would have concerns about

566
00:33:21.740 --> 00:33:24.450 A:middle L:90%
that. This being said the impact factor for some

567
00:33:24.450 --> 00:33:28.799 A:middle L:90%
of these scientific journals open access tend to be lower

568
00:33:28.809 --> 00:33:32.730 A:middle L:90%
than conventional journals. Mhm. Can I ask a

569
00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:38.009 A:middle L:90%
question about the 1700 to$2500? Would you clarify

570
00:33:38.009 --> 00:33:43.490 A:middle L:90%
? Is that the cost of making a closed article

571
00:33:43.500 --> 00:33:45.160 A:middle L:90%
open access? Is that what you're saying? That

572
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.750 A:middle L:90%
is publishing in an open access journal? That is

573
00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:53.299 A:middle L:90%
the fee that they require We published in BMC Cancer

574
00:33:53.309 --> 00:33:59.230 A:middle L:90%
. Actually, Virginia attack covers 15% of that.

575
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:04.950 A:middle L:90%
It's part of a consortium, Um, and for

576
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.019 A:middle L:90%
this article, in fact, I received more support

577
00:34:07.029 --> 00:34:08.489 A:middle L:90%
from the Library, the capital, so I'm very

578
00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:13.639 A:middle L:90%
grateful for that. But there is some variation because

579
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.570 A:middle L:90%
the Journal for German associate editor, it's$800 a

580
00:34:15.579 --> 00:34:20.590 A:middle L:90%
pop. So you know. So that's it's the

581
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:22.639 A:middle L:90%
same. You know, it's the same sort of

582
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.070 A:middle L:90%
model, just much less expensive. So, you

583
00:34:25.070 --> 00:34:28.920 A:middle L:90%
know, for, uh, any kind of scholar

584
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:34.780 A:middle L:90%
or the outlet does still matter. Even though essentially

585
00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:36.849 A:middle L:90%
you could put the exact same thing on the Web

586
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.519 A:middle L:90%
, write and edit it yourself and pop it up

587
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:42.570 A:middle L:90%
there. You know that that imprimatur that you have

588
00:34:42.570 --> 00:34:45.519 A:middle L:90%
from the journalists is really quite vital, you know

589
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:46.489 A:middle L:90%
, because it's been through the peer review process.

590
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:51.010 A:middle L:90%
It's this journal, this review, this editorial board

591
00:34:51.019 --> 00:34:52.789 A:middle L:90%
, this kind of group of people, you know

592
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:57.460 A:middle L:90%
, in our journal there. So the editorial,

593
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.019 A:middle L:90%
whoever was the associate editor for the paper is listed

594
00:35:00.019 --> 00:35:02.090 A:middle L:90%
on the paper. So when it's published, it

595
00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:05.210 A:middle L:90%
says, Okay, this was edited by me or

596
00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:06.719 A:middle L:90%
, you know, one of five other people or

597
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.119 A:middle L:90%
whatever, but not the reviewers. Those are still

598
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:12.389 A:middle L:90%
blind, and they in fact, I think the

599
00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:15.530 A:middle L:90%
i s I listed you have to have a blonde

600
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:16.610 A:middle L:90%
review process. Maybe somebody can clarify, but I

601
00:35:16.610 --> 00:35:20.380 A:middle L:90%
think it has to be a a blind review process

602
00:35:20.389 --> 00:35:22.750 A:middle L:90%
. You can't, because otherwise there's this concern that

603
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.119 A:middle L:90%
reviewers might not be as candid as they might otherwise

604
00:35:28.130 --> 00:35:30.210 A:middle L:90%
need to because not every not every year, but

605
00:35:30.210 --> 00:35:31.860 A:middle L:90%
they also want to provide. That's right. That's

606
00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:36.280 A:middle L:90%
right. Yeah. So I think there's quite a

607
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.809 A:middle L:90%
variety and practices in price because$2500 seems quite high

608
00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:44.760 A:middle L:90%
. It's as high as maybe as as I've heard

609
00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:51.230 A:middle L:90%
of. Yeah, I think this question of the

610
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.289 A:middle L:90%
article processing charges an interesting one because they seem to

611
00:35:54.289 --> 00:35:57.510 A:middle L:90%
be most prevalent in the fields with the most grandma

612
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:00.730 A:middle L:90%
. Which raises the question. You know, as

613
00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:04.329 A:middle L:90%
I mentioned earlier, we have more than 20 journalists

614
00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:07.260 A:middle L:90%
who are operating essentially on a zero budget. Um

615
00:36:07.269 --> 00:36:13.130 A:middle L:90%
, so are the article processing charges of response to

616
00:36:13.130 --> 00:36:15.449 A:middle L:90%
the fact that there's lots and lots of grant money

617
00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:19.760 A:middle L:90%
in life sciences and other fields. Or is it

618
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.360 A:middle L:90%
other things like having to post the data having to

619
00:36:23.369 --> 00:36:28.150 A:middle L:90%
do lots of figures may be higher volume of papers

620
00:36:28.530 --> 00:36:31.420 A:middle L:90%
. I'm just curious because there are some new models

621
00:36:31.420 --> 00:36:36.940 A:middle L:90%
that are much lower price as well. As you

622
00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:38.690 A:middle L:90%
know, the vast majority of open access journals right

623
00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:43.670 A:middle L:90%
now have no article process in charge. And then

624
00:36:43.670 --> 00:36:45.670 A:middle L:90%
there's new models like Pure J, which have very

625
00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:50.960 A:middle L:90%
low charges which enable you to publish once a year

626
00:36:51.530 --> 00:36:54.980 A:middle L:90%
that you know, like about 102$100. So

627
00:36:54.980 --> 00:37:00.000 A:middle L:90%
I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on APCs.

628
00:37:00.349 --> 00:37:00.539 A:middle L:90%
And, of course, the library is trying to

629
00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:02.929 A:middle L:90%
set a safety net for people who may not have

630
00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:06.429 A:middle L:90%
a grand but want to publish them on those journals

631
00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:10.400 A:middle L:90%
. It's still it's an interesting question. How are

632
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:14.239 A:middle L:90%
those set where they come from? What feels they

633
00:37:14.250 --> 00:37:15.809 A:middle L:90%
? I guess. I mean back to the Wikipedia

634
00:37:15.809 --> 00:37:17.730 A:middle L:90%
model. It's not free. So it's a question

635
00:37:17.730 --> 00:37:20.019 A:middle L:90%
of how you pay for is it is it?

636
00:37:20.019 --> 00:37:22.469 A:middle L:90%
Gifts is an institutional support from the library. It's

637
00:37:22.469 --> 00:37:23.880 A:middle L:90%
not free. I mean, if you think about

638
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.300 A:middle L:90%
the fact that you even if it's an online journal

639
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:30.219 A:middle L:90%
, it's there's an immense I back end that that

640
00:37:30.219 --> 00:37:30.860 A:middle L:90%
has to be done. Well, I mean,

641
00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:34.320 A:middle L:90%
this idea of being seamless you've got, you've got

642
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:35.929 A:middle L:90%
to be able to go to it, find it

643
00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:37.519 A:middle L:90%
there's no barrier of any sort, and I think

644
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.739 A:middle L:90%
that is an important piece and setting up something comparable

645
00:37:40.739 --> 00:37:45.869 A:middle L:90%
in the review process such that it's a seamless for

646
00:37:45.869 --> 00:37:47.420 A:middle L:90%
the reviewers for the editors, you know, that

647
00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:51.110 A:middle L:90%
whole kind of back in I also have, at

648
00:37:51.110 --> 00:37:52.610 A:middle L:90%
least in our experience, since It's quite international.

649
00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:59.969 A:middle L:90%
They have been funding essentially English editors for the international

650
00:37:59.969 --> 00:38:02.219 A:middle L:90%
community so that in order to maximize quality, they're

651
00:38:02.219 --> 00:38:07.909 A:middle L:90%
essentially hiring people to do the final kind of editing

652
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.269 A:middle L:90%
for grammar and syntax and whatnot so that you can

653
00:38:10.269 --> 00:38:15.360 A:middle L:90%
encourage international submissions but not burden the editorial board with

654
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:17.340 A:middle L:90%
essentially grammatical issues. So there, you know,

655
00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:20.900 A:middle L:90%
I think there can be a wide variety of costs

656
00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:22.699 A:middle L:90%
, and I think there often quite legitimate. I

657
00:38:22.699 --> 00:38:27.420 A:middle L:90%
think you're right about this issue of if people can

658
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:29.780 A:middle L:90%
pay, they're asked to pay with respect to individual

659
00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:31.969 A:middle L:90%
fields. I think that's quite clear, but it's

660
00:38:31.969 --> 00:38:34.849 A:middle L:90%
not clear to me that it really costs any less

661
00:38:34.849 --> 00:38:39.340 A:middle L:90%
to publish something in political science versus a classic natural

662
00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:42.789 A:middle L:90%
science or something of that nature. I don't think

663
00:38:42.789 --> 00:38:46.059 A:middle L:90%
it's any less. I just think that in fact

664
00:38:46.059 --> 00:38:49.760 A:middle L:90%
, if you can't pay, the other mechanisms are

665
00:38:49.769 --> 00:38:52.989 A:middle L:90%
being used to pay for the essential debate. Put

666
00:38:52.989 --> 00:38:58.000 A:middle L:90%
the whole thing on right so one of the primary

667
00:38:58.010 --> 00:39:00.170 A:middle L:90%
journals in my sub sub field is actually plus currents

668
00:39:00.170 --> 00:39:02.510 A:middle L:90%
outbreaks, which is part of the plus family,

669
00:39:02.539 --> 00:39:06.590 A:middle L:90%
and I'm sure that pluses money system helps to fund

670
00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:07.250 A:middle L:90%
it, but it's free to publish a plus current

671
00:39:07.250 --> 00:39:09.480 A:middle L:90%
outbreaks, and the way that I think they manage

672
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:12.389 A:middle L:90%
that is, they use WordPress. It's an online

673
00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:15.179 A:middle L:90%
only journal, and as an author you format your

674
00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:16.590 A:middle L:90%
own journal. Excuse me, your own article in

675
00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:19.989 A:middle L:90%
WordPress, which is actually kind of hard, but

676
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.590 A:middle L:90%
so far I've managed it, Um, and then

677
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:23.800 A:middle L:90%
when it goes to review, they basically just hit

678
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:28.619 A:middle L:90%
publish. And there it is, Um, and

679
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.099 A:middle L:90%
what's interesting to me is this journalist quite knew it

680
00:39:30.099 --> 00:39:32.989 A:middle L:90%
was launched, I think two years ago, and

681
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:35.889 A:middle L:90%
I wasn't sure how well it would do. But

682
00:39:35.900 --> 00:39:39.380 A:middle L:90%
it's actually all of the top Ebola modeling. Scratch

683
00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:42.480 A:middle L:90%
that nut top. Just all of the Ebola modeling

684
00:39:42.489 --> 00:39:45.230 A:middle L:90%
papers overall about Ebola have gone to this journal.

685
00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:46.710 A:middle L:90%
So every time you read in the news, something

686
00:39:46.710 --> 00:39:50.539 A:middle L:90%
about the math of Ebola or models predict they are

687
00:39:50.539 --> 00:39:52.800 A:middle L:90%
all in this journal and it's free, so that

688
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.119 A:middle L:90%
could be an alternative. Although it's not seamless,

689
00:39:54.119 --> 00:40:00.699 A:middle L:90%
it's it's free. So has that advantage. I

690
00:40:00.699 --> 00:40:06.530 A:middle L:90%
predict that as time goes on, we will find

691
00:40:06.909 --> 00:40:09.659 A:middle L:90%
cheaper and cheaper ways of doing these things that will

692
00:40:09.670 --> 00:40:14.460 A:middle L:90%
be template that people can adopt that will reduce a

693
00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:17.099 A:middle L:90%
lot of the present costs. And while people who

694
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:22.530 A:middle L:90%
are charging$2500 for article will keep their exclusivity as

695
00:40:22.530 --> 00:40:27.590 A:middle L:90%
long as they can, I think that the barriers

696
00:40:27.590 --> 00:40:30.940 A:middle L:90%
to entry will be sufficiently low. Yeah. Uh

697
00:40:30.409 --> 00:40:34.239 A:middle L:90%
mm. We can expect prices to come down over

698
00:40:37.300 --> 00:40:39.909 A:middle L:90%
. That was actually something that I've thought about as

699
00:40:39.909 --> 00:40:45.989 A:middle L:90%
well. You know, the new transparency of this

700
00:40:45.989 --> 00:40:49.570 A:middle L:90%
new model with having a crisis right there in front

701
00:40:49.570 --> 00:40:50.820 A:middle L:90%
. You have to have them right there. Because

702
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:53.360 A:middle L:90%
the authors have to know how much they need is

703
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:55.829 A:middle L:90%
much more transparent than the card system, where even

704
00:40:55.829 --> 00:41:00.849 A:middle L:90%
the library sometimes has trouble telling you exactly what specific

705
00:41:00.849 --> 00:41:07.300 A:middle L:90%
kernel costs. But, um, I think I

706
00:41:07.309 --> 00:41:12.739 A:middle L:90%
lost my train of thought. Um, mhm.

707
00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:17.550 A:middle L:90%
We'll circle back. Yeah, they have to do

708
00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:20.980 A:middle L:90%
with transparency. Oh, I think the problem with

709
00:41:20.989 --> 00:41:23.989 A:middle L:90%
the transparency argument is that prestige is so important now

710
00:41:23.989 --> 00:41:28.000 A:middle L:90%
, as Randy said earlier, matters where you published

711
00:41:28.010 --> 00:41:31.190 A:middle L:90%
. So, um, my concern is that prestige

712
00:41:31.190 --> 00:41:36.710 A:middle L:90%
will still be there, and prestigious publishers can charge

713
00:41:36.710 --> 00:41:43.170 A:middle L:90%
the higher NBC's$7000 whatever and the lesser journalists will

714
00:41:43.179 --> 00:41:46.800 A:middle L:90%
be charging less. So that's one of my concerns

715
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.019 A:middle L:90%
. Is the role of prestige and publishing it.

716
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.739 A:middle L:90%
I think it's how to Uh huh uh huh,

717
00:41:54.110 --> 00:41:58.840 A:middle L:90%
Bad effects currently. And it could also have an

718
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:01.429 A:middle L:90%
effect if things switch over to the model. So

719
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.780 A:middle L:90%
the unlucky open access community will have to find a

720
00:42:07.780 --> 00:42:10.409 A:middle L:90%
way to replicate prestige at a lower cost, not

721
00:42:10.420 --> 00:42:17.829 A:middle L:90%
just journals. And I think that you might possibly

722
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:22.590 A:middle L:90%
get Uh huh. The people who contribute prestige by

723
00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:27.639 A:middle L:90%
their own prestige, to read, to participate for

724
00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:34.079 A:middle L:90%
the sake of getting those submissions down. Are there

725
00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:38.900 A:middle L:90%
other questions from my still the open access journals that

726
00:42:38.900 --> 00:42:43.880 A:middle L:90%
you published? They give you feedback about the number

727
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:46.260 A:middle L:90%
of times your article was downloaded or anything like that

728
00:42:46.269 --> 00:42:52.019 A:middle L:90%
that you can use as a kind of a way

729
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:57.250 A:middle L:90%
to say you're you've written an article that is wanted

730
00:42:57.260 --> 00:42:59.750 A:middle L:90%
by the public that is read by the public.

731
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:07.199 A:middle L:90%
Could that that measure somehow compensate me before that quote

732
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:12.860 A:middle L:90%
official impact that mhm um, I published only in

733
00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:15.530 A:middle L:90%
one journal, but they have a metric number of

734
00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:19.530 A:middle L:90%
accesses to that journal, and you can see,

735
00:43:19.539 --> 00:43:22.659 A:middle L:90%
was it 102 100 or 6000 is a number of

736
00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:25.650 A:middle L:90%
accesses to your particular article, right through that journal

737
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:29.619 A:middle L:90%
. So that's what it comes. Doesn't count access

738
00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:36.860 A:middle L:90%
to other channels we can with at least the platform

739
00:43:36.860 --> 00:43:37.860 A:middle L:90%
we've had Specter on. We can look at the

740
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:40.739 A:middle L:90%
Web stats and see which particular links, right?

741
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:44.559 A:middle L:90%
So each of the essays or contributions has its own

742
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:47.239 A:middle L:90%
link, including when we publish images of artwork we

743
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:51.340 A:middle L:90%
can show where it's been access to how many times

744
00:43:51.340 --> 00:43:52.309 A:middle L:90%
we're moving to a new platform at the library.

745
00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:58.619 A:middle L:90%
I hope that stays the same, yes, but

746
00:43:58.630 --> 00:44:01.590 A:middle L:90%
just to reiterate, though, it's still Citation driven

747
00:44:01.769 --> 00:44:04.369 A:middle L:90%
when you can get all these statistics. But in

748
00:44:04.369 --> 00:44:07.309 A:middle L:90%
the end, if nobody among your peers cares enough

749
00:44:07.309 --> 00:44:10.800 A:middle L:90%
about what you wrote to then build from it,

750
00:44:10.809 --> 00:44:13.409 A:middle L:90%
then it's you know, I mean, there could

751
00:44:13.409 --> 00:44:14.670 A:middle L:90%
be a lot of people reading it, and we

752
00:44:14.670 --> 00:44:15.989 A:middle L:90%
would encourage that. In fact, the one big

753
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:19.730 A:middle L:90%
missing link has been that it doesn't always have to

754
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:22.480 A:middle L:90%
be a scholar that benefits from an article. And

755
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.550 A:middle L:90%
I think that's something that's an intangible that maybe these

756
00:44:24.550 --> 00:44:28.650 A:middle L:90%
other statistics might tell us more. But you probably

757
00:44:28.650 --> 00:44:30.769 A:middle L:90%
need to follow up with some surveys and some things

758
00:44:30.769 --> 00:44:34.099 A:middle L:90%
that are more targeted. But in the end,

759
00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:35.550 A:middle L:90%
you know, in terms of our one of the

760
00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:38.800 A:middle L:90%
reasons that prestige matters is that increases site ability.

761
00:44:39.190 --> 00:44:42.530 A:middle L:90%
And one of the open questions, so to speak

762
00:44:42.530 --> 00:44:46.269 A:middle L:90%
, is that does open access have, uh,

763
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.570 A:middle L:90%
also a positive effect on citations. And I'm not

764
00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:55.389 A:middle L:90%
fully convinced we've been running our own little experiment as

765
00:44:55.389 --> 00:44:58.510 A:middle L:90%
we, you know, put articles in different places

766
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:00.559 A:middle L:90%
. You know, the last several years I'm not

767
00:45:00.570 --> 00:45:01.820 A:middle L:90%
convinced that it's made a tremendous difference one way or

768
00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:04.880 A:middle L:90%
another. But that's good, too, because the

769
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.590 A:middle L:90%
open access journals are usually because they're newer. Tend

770
00:45:07.590 --> 00:45:12.110 A:middle L:90%
to be a you know, like the one in

771
00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:14.139 A:middle L:90%
which you know which I'm an editor's, maybe number

772
00:45:14.150 --> 00:45:15.030 A:middle L:90%
five. And there are several that are, you

773
00:45:15.030 --> 00:45:19.380 A:middle L:90%
know, 12 and three that are higher prestige,

774
00:45:19.389 --> 00:45:21.730 A:middle L:90%
and maybe you get more citations, but we're not

775
00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:23.190 A:middle L:90%
really seeing a vast difference in that way. But

776
00:45:23.190 --> 00:45:25.159 A:middle L:90%
I think there's some interesting questions in what you raised

777
00:45:25.170 --> 00:45:29.630 A:middle L:90%
because we're still all about. Does anybody in our

778
00:45:29.630 --> 00:45:32.500 A:middle L:90%
community care enough to build from it and therefore cited

779
00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:37.099 A:middle L:90%
? I think that's I was wondering, too.

780
00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:40.340 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, you have this. If you reported like

781
00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:45.460 A:middle L:90%
in your tactics order, um, or putting together

782
00:45:45.579 --> 00:45:50.980 A:middle L:90%
and t dossiers that anything that about open access,

783
00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:54.760 A:middle L:90%
you mean or these other site it's What would you

784
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:59.409 A:middle L:90%
cite? Hits like Minus Hagen? Two years got

785
00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:01.829 A:middle L:90%
500 just like the hits. Well, personally,

786
00:46:01.829 --> 00:46:04.480 A:middle L:90%
the only thing I've ever put like that is that

787
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:07.340 A:middle L:90%
we that we had the 10th most downloaded paper one

788
00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:08.769 A:middle L:90%
year. I put something like that in, but

789
00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:15.300 A:middle L:90%
I don't know about, actually, if you call

790
00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:19.110 A:middle L:90%
it out and the people who leave those reports,

791
00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:23.940 A:middle L:90%
those dossiers will begin to right. So I'm not

792
00:46:23.940 --> 00:46:27.659 A:middle L:90%
sure those numbers per se because they are going to

793
00:46:27.670 --> 00:46:37.130 A:middle L:90%
vary so much inside some information about it can become

794
00:46:37.130 --> 00:46:39.260 A:middle L:90%
meaningful, just like impact craters. You know,

795
00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:42.929 A:middle L:90%
they don't mean anything by themselves, either. I

796
00:46:42.929 --> 00:46:45.050 A:middle L:90%
mean, they did initially well, and it's been

797
00:46:45.050 --> 00:46:46.710 A:middle L:90%
so gained. I'm not sure, really. It

798
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:50.739 A:middle L:90%
does this. I guess you can look at the

799
00:46:50.750 --> 00:46:53.539 A:middle L:90%
contribution of that article to your age index, right

800
00:46:53.539 --> 00:46:57.489 A:middle L:90%
? I mean, is your aging that's coming from

801
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.800 A:middle L:90%
regular from articles published in regular journals or from open

802
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:06.559 A:middle L:90%
access? Is the impact higher there? You might

803
00:47:06.570 --> 00:47:09.630 A:middle L:90%
be able to say my article was accessed by the

804
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:14.719 A:middle L:90%
public X number of times and my article has this

805
00:47:14.730 --> 00:47:16.699 A:middle L:90%
impact factor, which is another tells you can tell

806
00:47:16.699 --> 00:47:22.809 A:middle L:90%
us the lead or something else, huh? That's

807
00:47:22.809 --> 00:47:23.909 A:middle L:90%
a cool. Yeah, I don't know that I

808
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:25.420 A:middle L:90%
know of anybody that's done that, but it's an

809
00:47:25.420 --> 00:47:30.260 A:middle L:90%
interesting idea. So I do that because I release

810
00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:31.269 A:middle L:90%
a lot of the data that I collect from media

811
00:47:31.269 --> 00:47:34.690 A:middle L:90%
reports and stuff either posted on picture or get help

812
00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:37.809 A:middle L:90%
or something like that and a couple of the things

813
00:47:37.809 --> 00:47:38.480 A:middle L:90%
I've done. I've actually gotten quite popular, so

814
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:43.300 A:middle L:90%
I'm right now. I'm maintaining a repository of Ebola

815
00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:46.269 A:middle L:90%
data and it it gets between 1,502,002 years every day

816
00:47:46.269 --> 00:47:49.550 A:middle L:90%
right now, and that's something I'm quite proud of

817
00:47:49.550 --> 00:47:51.269 A:middle L:90%
. So at the end of the year, when

818
00:47:51.269 --> 00:47:52.800 A:middle L:90%
I do my PhD review thing, I will.

819
00:47:52.809 --> 00:47:54.369 A:middle L:90%
I will be sure to put that and I have

820
00:47:54.369 --> 00:47:57.550 A:middle L:90%
in years past also. So it's a useful metric

821
00:47:57.559 --> 00:47:59.530 A:middle L:90%
for me because I know that the thing that I

822
00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:01.559 A:middle L:90%
spend a lot of my free time doing is valued

823
00:48:01.570 --> 00:48:04.570 A:middle L:90%
, and so whether or not other people care,

824
00:48:04.570 --> 00:48:06.019 A:middle L:90%
I'm not sure, but I'm going to tell them

825
00:48:06.019 --> 00:48:08.699 A:middle L:90%
about it anyway. We assume right nobody's sitting there

826
00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:14.079 A:middle L:90%
clicking hits just to generate that. It's one variable

827
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:15.820 A:middle L:90%
among all sorts of other variables, right? I

828
00:48:15.820 --> 00:48:17.269 A:middle L:90%
mean, just with, like, the citations there

829
00:48:17.269 --> 00:48:21.159 A:middle L:90%
are. There are prominent scholars whose work is cited

830
00:48:21.170 --> 00:48:22.010 A:middle L:90%
, whether or not it matches the quality of new

831
00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:27.409 A:middle L:90%
scholars. Um and so they get citations because of

832
00:48:27.409 --> 00:48:29.829 A:middle L:90%
a certain trajectory, you know, whether they earned

833
00:48:29.829 --> 00:48:37.369 A:middle L:90%
it or not. Here's a question about you see

834
00:48:37.369 --> 00:48:38.219 A:middle L:90%
, the article is, except we have a lonely

835
00:48:38.230 --> 00:48:42.519 A:middle L:90%
contract assigned. So you guys are negotiate that you

836
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:45.690 A:middle L:90%
keep left copyrighting lost before they pretty enough for the

837
00:48:45.699 --> 00:48:46.639 A:middle L:90%
journal. And that way you can then put in

838
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:50.400 A:middle L:90%
the open access format like a hot story. Okay

839
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:55.190 A:middle L:90%
, thank you. Oh, I have sort of

840
00:48:55.969 --> 00:49:00.260 A:middle L:90%
. It's interesting but incomplete knowledge about that subject.

841
00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:01.909 A:middle L:90%
I've never tried to do such a thing, but

842
00:49:01.909 --> 00:49:06.230 A:middle L:90%
I understand it has been quite common for people to

843
00:49:06.230 --> 00:49:09.460 A:middle L:90%
violate their copyrights by keeping an article the copy of

844
00:49:09.460 --> 00:49:13.480 A:middle L:90%
their article on their own website. And I have

845
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:15.900 A:middle L:90%
the impression that journalists given up trying to stop that

846
00:49:15.449 --> 00:49:22.849 A:middle L:90%
. It's so widespread and seems so reasonable that they

847
00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:25.250 A:middle L:90%
said Okay, you can do that. Now.

848
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:28.829 A:middle L:90%
I've heard one variation on that where you have to

849
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.940 A:middle L:90%
what the art of your post has to be.

850
00:49:30.969 --> 00:49:34.039 A:middle L:90%
The manuscript you submitted to them rather than the a

851
00:49:34.050 --> 00:49:37.960 A:middle L:90%
printed article. But if you have that, anybody

852
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:40.730 A:middle L:90%
who's interesting ideas as opposed to exactly what? Which

853
00:49:40.730 --> 00:49:44.860 A:middle L:90%
page did you say such and such? Uh,

854
00:49:44.869 --> 00:49:47.329 A:middle L:90%
the manuscript that went off to the Journal is good

855
00:49:47.329 --> 00:49:51.579 A:middle L:90%
enough. I was thinking that kind of black cast

856
00:49:51.969 --> 00:49:57.809 A:middle L:90%
$2500. Well, the hybrid model committed it within

857
00:49:57.809 --> 00:50:00.460 A:middle L:90%
a year. After a bargain. You negotiate with

858
00:50:00.460 --> 00:50:02.039 A:middle L:90%
publishers saying, after one year I can. Now

859
00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:06.260 A:middle L:90%
I make my version, but there's a just a

860
00:50:06.269 --> 00:50:08.099 A:middle L:90%
counter. I think there's a discovery ability issue.

861
00:50:08.110 --> 00:50:10.539 A:middle L:90%
I think that, you know, for those of

862
00:50:10.539 --> 00:50:14.460 A:middle L:90%
us that have done that kind of off the record

863
00:50:14.469 --> 00:50:15.719 A:middle L:90%
for a long time, that if you were to

864
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:19.360 A:middle L:90%
count the number of downloads, it's really just on

865
00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:21.630 A:middle L:90%
on a couple of hands because people have to know

866
00:50:21.630 --> 00:50:23.690 A:middle L:90%
to go look for it. And so it's the

867
00:50:23.690 --> 00:50:27.320 A:middle L:90%
it's ultimately, you know, somebody says, Oh

868
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:28.679 A:middle L:90%
, gosh, I have I have to pay 40

869
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:29.820 A:middle L:90%
bucks. I think I'll go see if they have

870
00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:30.280 A:middle L:90%
it on their website has to be that kind of

871
00:50:30.289 --> 00:50:34.739 A:middle L:90%
thing, but it's not this seamless integration that you

872
00:50:34.739 --> 00:50:37.150 A:middle L:90%
were talking about earlier. I disagree with you.

873
00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:42.940 A:middle L:90%
I have. I noticed that when I Google an

874
00:50:42.940 --> 00:50:45.949 A:middle L:90%
article or look at Google scholar, Google scholar tells

875
00:50:45.949 --> 00:50:47.139 A:middle L:90%
me who happens to have signed it to their class

876
00:50:47.139 --> 00:50:51.750 A:middle L:90%
and put it on their website somewhere. As soon

877
00:50:51.750 --> 00:50:55.050 A:middle L:90%
as you put anything anywhere, Google will notice it

878
00:50:55.059 --> 00:50:59.559 A:middle L:90%
and tell people where to find it. Yeah,

879
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.289 A:middle L:90%
um, just when you say that I have been

880
00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:08.059 A:middle L:90%
kind of following copyright agreements in journals here and there

881
00:51:08.059 --> 00:51:13.030 A:middle L:90%
, often in the health and it's the people I

882
00:51:13.030 --> 00:51:17.099 A:middle L:90%
work with and more and more publisher reserves, specifically

883
00:51:17.110 --> 00:51:22.519 A:middle L:90%
allowing authors to retain the right to post either the

884
00:51:22.530 --> 00:51:27.170 A:middle L:90%
final interviewed version of the manuscript or some other version

885
00:51:27.170 --> 00:51:30.250 A:middle L:90%
, we specify which one. But they specifically tell

886
00:51:30.250 --> 00:51:34.389 A:middle L:90%
them you may. There are these things and and

887
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.469 A:middle L:90%
then people still are not only can find it on

888
00:51:37.469 --> 00:51:40.070 A:middle L:90%
someone's random website, but they they also one of

889
00:51:40.070 --> 00:51:44.679 A:middle L:90%
the provisions adopted in two posted in your institutional repository

890
00:51:44.690 --> 00:51:46.679 A:middle L:90%
, which we're lucky to have one. Um,

891
00:51:46.690 --> 00:51:49.480 A:middle L:90%
if you don't have one, that's kind of a

892
00:51:49.489 --> 00:51:53.079 A:middle L:90%
limitation that can be annoying. But then Google Connect

893
00:51:53.260 --> 00:51:55.960 A:middle L:90%
. You'll have to see those PDS is that most

894
00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:59.510 A:middle L:90%
of them are going to when those are possibilities,

895
00:52:00.550 --> 00:52:04.670 A:middle L:90%
a legitimate thing more and more these days. So

896
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:08.670 A:middle L:90%
that's been an interesting, absolutely come up more if

897
00:52:08.670 --> 00:52:10.360 A:middle L:90%
I may. I want to bring up research gate

898
00:52:10.489 --> 00:52:13.389 A:middle L:90%
, any of you are any of you on research

899
00:52:14.150 --> 00:52:21.429 A:middle L:90%
? So it's essentially a social media for researchers,

900
00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.119 A:middle L:90%
and there's an immense number of people at Virginia Tech

901
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:24.469 A:middle L:90%
that are on. And I mean, just because

902
00:52:24.469 --> 00:52:28.469 A:middle L:90%
I get all their updates without wanting them, I

903
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.980 A:middle L:90%
can see them. Um, but what's interesting is

904
00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:37.630 A:middle L:90%
they are essentially be common a an archive for your

905
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:39.159 A:middle L:90%
work. They When you log in, they'll say

906
00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:42.360 A:middle L:90%
we are these following, you know, articles.

907
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:44.920 A:middle L:90%
Yours. And once you did it, they it's

908
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:46.500 A:middle L:90%
there. And I was reading and I met some

909
00:52:46.500 --> 00:52:49.469 A:middle L:90%
of your library may follow this more closely, but

910
00:52:50.050 --> 00:52:52.280 A:middle L:90%
I've been reading. Essentially, the publishers are actually

911
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:57.539 A:middle L:90%
fostering is they're not. They're not in any way

912
00:52:57.550 --> 00:53:00.860 A:middle L:90%
trying to hinder research gate. Um, it's actually

913
00:53:00.869 --> 00:53:04.440 A:middle L:90%
Gates Foundation that funds it. Um, and it's

914
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.610 A:middle L:90%
a really interesting model because it's the equivalent of the

915
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:09.309 A:middle L:90%
, you know, putting it up on your website

916
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:12.539 A:middle L:90%
, except that you're not doing it anymore. And

917
00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:15.380 A:middle L:90%
therefore you're not incurring the liability, its research gate

918
00:53:15.380 --> 00:53:17.869 A:middle L:90%
that's incurring the liability, you know, because if

919
00:53:17.869 --> 00:53:21.139 A:middle L:90%
you're going, you know, kind of counter to

920
00:53:21.139 --> 00:53:24.099 A:middle L:90%
these, uh, institutional copyrights. It's really quite

921
00:53:24.110 --> 00:53:27.860 A:middle L:90%
intriguing development and the fact that the Gates Foundation is

922
00:53:27.860 --> 00:53:30.769 A:middle L:90%
involved. I think it's also very intriguing, and

923
00:53:30.769 --> 00:53:32.559 A:middle L:90%
they're just an immense number of people that increasingly are

924
00:53:34.150 --> 00:53:37.429 A:middle L:90%
are involved. And if the Journal has an explicit

925
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.840 A:middle L:90%
no share policy because there are some journals that that's

926
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:43.269 A:middle L:90%
the case, it will not automatically upload your article

927
00:53:43.650 --> 00:53:45.329 A:middle L:90%
. But I don't know if any of you remember

928
00:53:45.329 --> 00:53:47.110 A:middle L:90%
those three by five cards we used to send to

929
00:53:47.110 --> 00:53:52.090 A:middle L:90%
ask people for copies of their They have the equivalent

930
00:53:52.090 --> 00:53:53.329 A:middle L:90%
research gate. So I just got an email today

931
00:53:53.329 --> 00:53:55.070 A:middle L:90%
, like so and so wants a copy of mine

932
00:53:55.550 --> 00:53:59.340 A:middle L:90%
paper, of course, in an l severe journal

933
00:53:59.650 --> 00:54:04.980 A:middle L:90%
that they can't essentially, I couldn't get an automatic

934
00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:06.639 A:middle L:90%
upload on research game, but it's the equivalent I

935
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:08.750 A:middle L:90%
can send them through Research gate that article, just

936
00:54:08.750 --> 00:54:12.059 A:middle L:90%
as if it was the old three by five cards

937
00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:15.530 A:middle L:90%
. And so it's a really intriguing additional kind of

938
00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:16.889 A:middle L:90%
, uh, you know, muddies the water is

939
00:54:16.889 --> 00:54:20.719 A:middle L:90%
a little bit because even something that you didn't intend

940
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:22.019 A:middle L:90%
to be open source. If you participate, research

941
00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:25.369 A:middle L:90%
gate might end up essentially having a defacto open source

942
00:54:25.369 --> 00:54:30.559 A:middle L:90%
nature, which is a bit of an interesting change

943
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:34.449 A:middle L:90%
. How similar different is academia that do, because

944
00:54:34.449 --> 00:54:37.750 A:middle L:90%
the copyright the copyright transferred, academic deputy, you

945
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.070 A:middle L:90%
makes me, um, as as open access or

946
00:54:40.070 --> 00:54:43.269 A:middle L:90%
into, as I am a little suspicious about then

947
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:45.559 A:middle L:90%
their claim to your copies. Um, and I

948
00:54:45.570 --> 00:54:49.090 A:middle L:90%
i when I first started looking at academic e d

949
00:54:49.090 --> 00:54:51.590 A:middle L:90%
u. I posted on Facebook in this forum where

950
00:54:51.590 --> 00:54:52.739 A:middle L:90%
I knew other people with open access interest to respond

951
00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:54.190 A:middle L:90%
. And I said, What do you think about

952
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:59.300 A:middle L:90%
this? And overwhelmingly people interested in or working with

953
00:54:59.300 --> 00:55:04.320 A:middle L:90%
open access publications were really against academia dot edu that

954
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:05.920 A:middle L:90%
if you put something in there for, um,

955
00:55:05.929 --> 00:55:07.210 A:middle L:90%
then they have a copy of it. So as

956
00:55:07.210 --> 00:55:12.000 A:middle L:90%
research gate explicitly said that contributors retain their copyright,

957
00:55:12.010 --> 00:55:15.159 A:middle L:90%
they do. Yeah. There's no copyright assignment of

958
00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:22.260 A:middle L:90%
any sort, Mr Hope. Yeah, So I

959
00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:27.019 A:middle L:90%
would like to visit a slightly different direction and talk

960
00:55:27.030 --> 00:55:34.280 A:middle L:90%
about the other. Well, 26,000 people are at

961
00:55:34.289 --> 00:55:38.039 A:middle L:90%
this university. Talk about students and what kinds of

962
00:55:38.050 --> 00:55:44.920 A:middle L:90%
things. Students who are possibly going into academia,

963
00:55:44.929 --> 00:55:47.440 A:middle L:90%
possibly going into industry, doing something else. What

964
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.989 A:middle L:90%
do students need to know? And how could they

965
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.949 A:middle L:90%
benefit from open accessories? We're talking undergrads and grad

966
00:55:55.949 --> 00:56:00.469 A:middle L:90%
students. I kind of want to point that question

967
00:56:00.469 --> 00:56:07.250 A:middle L:90%
to Michelle. Your most recently involved with student published

968
00:56:08.530 --> 00:56:12.280 A:middle L:90%
. Mm. What kinds of things do you wish

969
00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.920 A:middle L:90%
you had known? Well, for undergraduates. Um

970
00:56:15.929 --> 00:56:17.400 A:middle L:90%
, a lot of students are encouraged to publish.

971
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:21.119 A:middle L:90%
And, um, student run to undergraduate research journals

972
00:56:21.130 --> 00:56:22.889 A:middle L:90%
. Um, like the lucha, um, it's

973
00:56:22.889 --> 00:56:27.449 A:middle L:90%
free to submit its a free print magazine free online

974
00:56:27.460 --> 00:56:29.000 A:middle L:90%
. Um, but then a lot of other schools

975
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.739 A:middle L:90%
also do that to, um and there's actually a

976
00:56:30.739 --> 00:56:35.510 A:middle L:90%
network online of, um, various undergraduate research journals

977
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:38.550 A:middle L:90%
that accept submissions from outside schools. Um, Philadelphia

978
00:56:38.550 --> 00:56:42.170 A:middle L:90%
has limitations on what other schools we can submit.

979
00:56:42.179 --> 00:56:45.349 A:middle L:90%
So right now it's pretty much exclusively Virginia Tech students

980
00:56:45.730 --> 00:56:47.289 A:middle L:90%
. Um, but yeah, I mean, I

981
00:56:47.289 --> 00:56:51.519 A:middle L:90%
feel like it's a lot simpler for undergraduates. If

982
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:53.760 A:middle L:90%
you're sort of doing it in in that regard,

983
00:56:53.769 --> 00:56:57.710 A:middle L:90%
there's no fees. You submit it, you hear

984
00:56:57.710 --> 00:57:00.880 A:middle L:90%
back, and it's make provisions are there needed,

985
00:57:01.019 --> 00:57:07.260 A:middle L:90%
and it's just a very different model I guess it's

986
00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:10.199 A:middle L:90%
a lot more focused on sharing with as many people

987
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:14.340 A:middle L:90%
as possible, including family, friends, members of

988
00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:17.880 A:middle L:90%
the public. Um, so I guess it's that's

989
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:22.710 A:middle L:90%
kind of my perspective on Uh huh Do you?

990
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.460 A:middle L:90%
Is there? Oh, I don't even sure.

991
00:57:25.460 --> 00:57:29.519 A:middle L:90%
I think it's important to get people excited and engaged

992
00:57:29.530 --> 00:57:30.469 A:middle L:90%
in open access early because I feel like it's a

993
00:57:30.469 --> 00:57:34.179 A:middle L:90%
lot easier to commit to it as a career choice

994
00:57:34.179 --> 00:57:37.010 A:middle L:90%
and as a personal research mission from the beginning and

995
00:57:37.010 --> 00:57:39.929 A:middle L:90%
sort of making the transition in the beginning. Excuse

996
00:57:39.929 --> 00:57:45.300 A:middle L:90%
me mid career. So I think teaching students about

997
00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:47.409 A:middle L:90%
the importance of it and why it's important to send

998
00:57:47.409 --> 00:57:50.400 A:middle L:90%
their best work to a journalist because that's how we're

999
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:52.659 A:middle L:90%
gonna raise the impact factors if everyone sends their best

1000
00:57:52.659 --> 00:57:53.989 A:middle L:90%
work there, um is really important to start from

1001
00:57:53.989 --> 00:57:59.119 A:middle L:90%
the beginning. Somebody's We serve as a hub or

1002
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:05.030 A:middle L:90%
a relay station. The the what little reporter authority

1003
00:58:05.030 --> 00:58:07.590 A:middle L:90%
we might have when somebody who hasn't published much or

1004
00:58:07.590 --> 00:58:09.969 A:middle L:90%
is getting started comes to us and wants us to

1005
00:58:09.980 --> 00:58:13.719 A:middle L:90%
referees something we can get it read by people who

1006
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:15.679 A:middle L:90%
are relatively prominent in the field. We can write

1007
00:58:15.690 --> 00:58:17.250 A:middle L:90%
them or one of our editorial board members will send

1008
00:58:17.250 --> 00:58:19.969 A:middle L:90%
it to them and say, Can you get this

1009
00:58:19.969 --> 00:58:21.949 A:middle L:90%
red? By so and so So the person who

1010
00:58:21.949 --> 00:58:22.929 A:middle L:90%
sent it in may never know. That's who reviewed

1011
00:58:22.929 --> 00:58:25.469 A:middle L:90%
it, but we're getting it read by people,

1012
00:58:25.480 --> 00:58:28.300 A:middle L:90%
you know. Then, later on, when the

1013
00:58:28.309 --> 00:58:29.869 A:middle L:90%
essay gets published or whatnot, you know, we

1014
00:58:29.869 --> 00:58:30.489 A:middle L:90%
still have in our editorial board. It's been looked

1015
00:58:30.489 --> 00:58:32.210 A:middle L:90%
at. It's been vetted by people who were top

1016
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:35.210 A:middle L:90%
folks. We can say to the people who are

1017
00:58:35.210 --> 00:58:37.619 A:middle L:90%
sending in their work, Um, we'll do our

1018
00:58:37.619 --> 00:58:38.130 A:middle L:90%
best to get it read by people who are very

1019
00:58:38.130 --> 00:58:40.329 A:middle L:90%
prominent and accomplished in this field. So we try

1020
00:58:40.329 --> 00:58:43.599 A:middle L:90%
to service that relay where, um, you know

1021
00:58:43.610 --> 00:58:47.500 A:middle L:90%
so other other in other places where graduate students are

1022
00:58:47.500 --> 00:58:51.150 A:middle L:90%
not publishing an open access. I don't know.

1023
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:52.000 A:middle L:90%
You know, I don't know where we pay really

1024
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:54.030 A:middle L:90%
close attention to that. Can we get it red

1025
00:58:54.420 --> 00:58:59.250 A:middle L:90%
by people at the top of the field? Um

1026
00:59:00.420 --> 00:59:01.039 A:middle L:90%
, I think that's important. Students who commute a

1027
00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:07.230 A:middle L:90%
graduate programs and for faculty. What would you What

1028
00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:10.449 A:middle L:90%
are your objectives or your names for your students to

1029
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:15.550 A:middle L:90%
as they possibly enter the professor? Other things that

1030
00:59:15.550 --> 00:59:21.750 A:middle L:90%
you want to instill in them or cause intimate critically

1031
00:59:21.750 --> 00:59:28.389 A:middle L:90%
about. Yeah, I think that it's natural that

1032
00:59:28.389 --> 00:59:30.349 A:middle L:90%
young scholars, we're most concerned with getting a job

1033
00:59:30.349 --> 00:59:34.650 A:middle L:90%
in getting tenure, and they will be very reluctant

1034
00:59:34.659 --> 00:59:37.000 A:middle L:90%
to do something that might risk that process. It

1035
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:44.039 A:middle L:90%
seems to me that the responsibility for making the shift

1036
00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:47.210 A:middle L:90%
open access lies with the people already have tenure rather

1037
00:59:47.210 --> 00:59:51.210 A:middle L:90%
than people who are struggling. So I I wouldn't

1038
00:59:51.210 --> 00:59:52.480 A:middle L:90%
want to put a burden on them. I want

1039
00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:54.469 A:middle L:90%
to, but I know about it and, uh

1040
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.690 A:middle L:90%
, say that maybe someday they could help in the

1041
00:59:57.699 --> 01:00:00.510 A:middle L:90%
process, but I wouldn't try to tell them they

1042
01:00:00.510 --> 01:00:04.019 A:middle L:90%
have to do it right away. Mhm Mm,

1043
01:00:04.409 --> 01:00:09.119 A:middle L:90%
I encourage my students always access all kinds of information

1044
01:00:09.130 --> 01:00:13.119 A:middle L:90%
. Um, not just from journals, but I

1045
01:00:13.130 --> 01:00:16.679 A:middle L:90%
also cautioned them about the quality of the information they

1046
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:22.719 A:middle L:90%
extract and about finding ways to future the information because

1047
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:25.030 A:middle L:90%
it can become a very time consuming process. And

1048
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.639 A:middle L:90%
at the end, you just don't get the quality

1049
01:00:29.110 --> 01:00:30.820 A:middle L:90%
. And this is especially true when you want to

1050
01:00:30.820 --> 01:00:39.079 A:middle L:90%
access scientific data and making them aware how well I

1051
01:00:39.389 --> 01:00:45.219 A:middle L:90%
do not believe necessarily everything that is posted have a

1052
01:00:45.219 --> 01:00:50.239 A:middle L:90%
way to somehow sort out through that information. I

1053
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:53.219 A:middle L:90%
want to say a bit about, uh, some

1054
01:00:53.219 --> 01:00:58.329 A:middle L:90%
work 50 years ago or so on this topic.

1055
01:00:58.329 --> 01:01:00.760 A:middle L:90%
In the sense, right? Uh huh. This

1056
01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:04.739 A:middle L:90%
is my former colleague, Gordon Politics wrote a book

1057
01:01:04.739 --> 01:01:08.110 A:middle L:90%
, the Organization of Inquiry, published in about 1970

1058
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:13.179 A:middle L:90%
45 44 years ago, and in the organization of

1059
01:01:13.190 --> 01:01:15.920 A:middle L:90%
inquiry, he proposed a system if I remember,

1060
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:22.750 A:middle L:90%
right nowhere when you submit an article the you would

1061
01:01:23.019 --> 01:01:25.210 A:middle L:90%
. Well, when it was eventually published, you

1062
01:01:25.210 --> 01:01:29.250 A:middle L:90%
would just all the people, uh, and the

1063
01:01:29.260 --> 01:01:30.369 A:middle L:90%
journalist who had rejected it, as well as the

1064
01:01:30.369 --> 01:01:34.329 A:middle L:90%
one who eventually accepted it so that later became famous

1065
01:01:34.329 --> 01:01:37.800 A:middle L:90%
people would suffer some reputational loss from having rejected it

1066
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:43.519 A:middle L:90%
unfairly. And then after it was published, uh

1067
01:01:43.909 --> 01:01:46.949 A:middle L:90%
, various people who thought that others would be interested

1068
01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:52.280 A:middle L:90%
would give them article evaluation. Perhaps a number of

1069
01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:55.539 A:middle L:90%
stars like we have on the Amazon reviews. And

1070
01:01:55.539 --> 01:02:00.400 A:middle L:90%
so a If you're thinking about reading an article,

1071
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:01.619 A:middle L:90%
wanted to know whether there was anything worthwhile in it

1072
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:06.530 A:middle L:90%
. You can see how many people of what reputation

1073
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:07.820 A:middle L:90%
had given a credit of one kind and another,

1074
01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:13.300 A:middle L:90%
uh so I think that people who are interested in

1075
01:02:13.309 --> 01:02:15.179 A:middle L:90%
open access might go back and look at Gordon Tallix

1076
01:02:15.190 --> 01:02:23.099 A:middle L:90%
organization of inquiry. I have a question for all

1077
01:02:23.099 --> 01:02:27.179 A:middle L:90%
the Panelists, especially since I think all of you

1078
01:02:27.190 --> 01:02:30.090 A:middle L:90%
, with the possible exception of Michelle, have relationship

1079
01:02:30.090 --> 01:02:31.360 A:middle L:90%
with Virginia Tech now. So you have access to

1080
01:02:31.369 --> 01:02:37.659 A:middle L:90%
everything that Virginia Tech subscribes to first. How often

1081
01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:39.099 A:middle L:90%
do you hit pay walls now to cortical that you

1082
01:02:39.099 --> 01:02:42.929 A:middle L:90%
need? And second, how do you address that

1083
01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:44.989 A:middle L:90%
? Mean to go through? I allow. Do

1084
01:02:44.989 --> 01:02:49.010 A:middle L:90%
you right off for what do you do? So

1085
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.179 A:middle L:90%
, uh, I suppose that happens to me once

1086
01:02:53.179 --> 01:02:58.900 A:middle L:90%
every month or two. And sometimes I find the

1087
01:02:58.900 --> 01:03:02.039 A:middle L:90%
article on somebody's website somewhere. Sometimes I use inter

1088
01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:05.969 A:middle L:90%
library loan. Sometimes they just do without it.

1089
01:03:06.409 --> 01:03:10.300 A:middle L:90%
Sometimes I go to Google books and see whether in

1090
01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:14.300 A:middle L:90%
Google books they happen to have scanned pages that I'm

1091
01:03:14.300 --> 01:03:19.510 A:middle L:90%
interested in. Uh huh, just the other day

1092
01:03:19.510 --> 01:03:22.570 A:middle L:90%
, I was looking for the earliest use of the

1093
01:03:22.579 --> 01:03:27.300 A:middle L:90%
term morally ill, and it turned out to be

1094
01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:30.639 A:middle L:90%
Lord Shaftesbury in 17 25. And, uh,

1095
01:03:30.650 --> 01:03:32.780 A:middle L:90%
Google had the bear quotations, but they there was

1096
01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:37.719 A:middle L:90%
a copyright issue somehow of this book from 17 25

1097
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:39.219 A:middle L:90%
and they weren't able to give me the whole page

1098
01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:44.989 A:middle L:90%
. Definitely, I'm copyright, I guess, for

1099
01:03:44.989 --> 01:03:46.969 A:middle L:90%
me personally. The most common issues whole journal that

1100
01:03:46.969 --> 01:03:51.170 A:middle L:90%
might not be present in the library in which colleagues

1101
01:03:51.170 --> 01:03:54.349 A:middle L:90%
published. And in that instance, we've had one

1102
01:03:54.349 --> 01:04:00.250 A:middle L:90%
case where, really, it's also a society journal

1103
01:04:00.250 --> 01:04:02.130 A:middle L:90%
. But the other in Francis makes it available to

1104
01:04:02.130 --> 01:04:08.099 A:middle L:90%
libraries for an exorbitant fee. So what we've essentially

1105
01:04:08.110 --> 01:04:14.019 A:middle L:90%
done is they have personal subscription. I'm on the

1106
01:04:14.030 --> 01:04:15.510 A:middle L:90%
record here, so but essentially, what we do

1107
01:04:15.510 --> 01:04:19.639 A:middle L:90%
is we. We have a personal subscription that we

1108
01:04:19.650 --> 01:04:21.840 A:middle L:90%
does not circulate through the library, but we make

1109
01:04:21.849 --> 01:04:26.460 A:middle L:90%
locally available to students, in fact, and that

1110
01:04:26.460 --> 01:04:30.099 A:middle L:90%
way we're paying through the society it's in. Instead

1111
01:04:30.099 --> 01:04:32.000 A:middle L:90%
of$7000. It's less than 200 by the time

1112
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:33.650 A:middle L:90%
you mean it comes from the U. K.

1113
01:04:33.650 --> 01:04:36.090 A:middle L:90%
So that's the international shipping. But essentially, it's

1114
01:04:36.090 --> 01:04:40.559 A:middle L:90%
a lot of journals, and we're we have access

1115
01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:44.340 A:middle L:90%
to it, including digital access for a fraction of

1116
01:04:44.340 --> 01:04:46.719 A:middle L:90%
the costs for the people that use it most.

1117
01:04:47.190 --> 01:04:50.909 A:middle L:90%
Um, and so it's an unfortunate model because somebody's

1118
01:04:50.909 --> 01:04:53.630 A:middle L:90%
got to still come up with. I mean,

1119
01:04:53.630 --> 01:04:55.980 A:middle L:90%
we basically parts this around our group, but basically

1120
01:04:55.980 --> 01:04:59.900 A:middle L:90%
somebody's still got to join the society and be able

1121
01:04:59.900 --> 01:05:03.039 A:middle L:90%
to foster that access for the students and for the

1122
01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:05.349 A:middle L:90%
other faculty members. And so, you know,

1123
01:05:05.349 --> 01:05:06.980 A:middle L:90%
there are people I think come up with all sorts

1124
01:05:06.980 --> 01:05:11.110 A:middle L:90%
of mechanisms to deal with this type of data.

1125
01:05:11.989 --> 01:05:15.110 A:middle L:90%
Virginia Tech doesn't seem to have subscriptions to a lot

1126
01:05:15.110 --> 01:05:15.980 A:middle L:90%
of the top medical journals, and I feel like

1127
01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:17.690 A:middle L:90%
it might be me, because I'm just so surprised

1128
01:05:17.690 --> 01:05:18.849 A:middle L:90%
that, like, I can't get the New England

1129
01:05:18.849 --> 01:05:21.800 A:middle L:90%
Journal, someone please tell me if I'm completely wrong

1130
01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:24.300 A:middle L:90%
about that, because I run into this all the

1131
01:05:24.300 --> 01:05:26.769 A:middle L:90%
time. Usually what I do is you use I

1132
01:05:26.769 --> 01:05:28.980 A:middle L:90%
can, has pdf on Twitter. So you post

1133
01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:30.219 A:middle L:90%
the link of the article you want and you post

1134
01:05:30.219 --> 01:05:33.400 A:middle L:90%
your email address and people just monitor this and they'll

1135
01:05:33.400 --> 01:05:36.010 A:middle L:90%
email it to you within minutes. Like I've never

1136
01:05:36.010 --> 01:05:38.670 A:middle L:90%
waited more than 10 minutes to get an article I

1137
01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:41.079 A:middle L:90%
wanted. And there's this whole protocol around it,

1138
01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:42.920 A:middle L:90%
So you never thank the person who sent it to

1139
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:44.699 A:middle L:90%
you publicly, and after you get it, you

1140
01:05:44.699 --> 01:05:46.309 A:middle L:90%
delete the tweet so that it's not on record that

1141
01:05:46.309 --> 01:05:47.800 A:middle L:90%
you asked for it. I don't know. I

1142
01:05:47.800 --> 01:05:49.289 A:middle L:90%
don't really. I'm not that worried about it,

1143
01:05:49.289 --> 01:05:53.059 A:middle L:90%
but I try to here, but yeah, that's

1144
01:05:53.059 --> 01:05:54.710 A:middle L:90%
how I've always gotten things that I can't find.

1145
01:05:56.190 --> 01:05:57.909 A:middle L:90%
What should we do? Can I turn the question

1146
01:05:57.909 --> 01:06:03.099 A:middle L:90%
around? It's and so hypothetically, right? You

1147
01:06:03.099 --> 01:06:08.360 A:middle L:90%
know, I may have once written the librarian and

1148
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:10.119 A:middle L:90%
said, Can we get access to this and was

1149
01:06:10.119 --> 01:06:12.510 A:middle L:90%
told the faculty member in your department will have to

1150
01:06:12.510 --> 01:06:14.760 A:middle L:90%
ask for that? I mean, what are the

1151
01:06:14.769 --> 01:06:20.489 A:middle L:90%
What should we do? I want to. I

1152
01:06:20.500 --> 01:06:23.239 A:middle L:90%
mean, you're talking about the journal. You want

1153
01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:25.570 A:middle L:90%
the entire journal? You want subscription to the journal

1154
01:06:25.579 --> 01:06:27.389 A:middle L:90%
? Okay, I guess I was asking more on

1155
01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:30.360 A:middle L:90%
paper paper basis. I do. What I do

1156
01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:32.980 A:middle L:90%
is, uh, you know, like I think

1157
01:06:32.989 --> 01:06:35.500 A:middle L:90%
Jenny mentioned If you use Google Scholar a lot of

1158
01:06:35.510 --> 01:06:39.829 A:middle L:90%
times, it'll college things and will say, Here's

1159
01:06:39.829 --> 01:06:41.489 A:middle L:90%
one version, but right under it, with a

1160
01:06:41.489 --> 01:06:43.989 A:middle L:90%
little length will say, See all four versions,

1161
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:46.570 A:middle L:90%
so I'll click that it will bring all four and

1162
01:06:46.570 --> 01:06:48.219 A:middle L:90%
I look at the links. And if it's a

1163
01:06:48.230 --> 01:06:50.699 A:middle L:90%
university address or something like that, it's probably coming

1164
01:06:50.710 --> 01:06:55.449 A:middle L:90%
from Repository. It's not coming from El severe or

1165
01:06:55.460 --> 01:06:59.360 A:middle L:90%
TNF dot com or something like that. So that's

1166
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:02.280 A:middle L:90%
one way I do things, find stuff. You

1167
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:05.300 A:middle L:90%
know, I find the the author's manuscript online somewhere

1168
01:07:05.980 --> 01:07:08.989 A:middle L:90%
. But if I can't do that, then I

1169
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:14.860 A:middle L:90%
use so anyone else have methods or problems. I

1170
01:07:14.869 --> 01:07:17.449 A:middle L:90%
guess we were very fortunate because probably 95% of the

1171
01:07:17.460 --> 01:07:20.219 A:middle L:90%
journals that he was you can access them to the

1172
01:07:20.429 --> 01:07:26.400 A:middle L:90%
attack occasionally. Books We got them, then alone

1173
01:07:27.380 --> 01:07:30.369 A:middle L:90%
. All right, spreading what in your library loans

1174
01:07:30.369 --> 01:07:34.039 A:middle L:90%
. Statistics also give us so if you request an

1175
01:07:34.039 --> 01:07:36.949 A:middle L:90%
article the Inter Library loan, rather than going through

1176
01:07:36.949 --> 01:07:41.190 A:middle L:90%
a personal network, which can be used to be

1177
01:07:41.199 --> 01:07:44.250 A:middle L:90%
fast and effective. But if you go through inter

1178
01:07:44.250 --> 01:07:47.840 A:middle L:90%
library loan and also the statistics and information what people

1179
01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:50.119 A:middle L:90%
need So if there's a journal that we don't subscribe

1180
01:07:50.130 --> 01:07:54.659 A:middle L:90%
to the fact that has been requested, X number

1181
01:07:54.659 --> 01:07:57.619 A:middle L:90%
of times tells us that this is a resource that

1182
01:07:57.630 --> 01:08:01.010 A:middle L:90%
people here are using find useful, Mhm. Recent

1183
01:08:01.019 --> 01:08:03.539 A:middle L:90%
. We shouldn't subscribe, and we do want to

1184
01:08:03.539 --> 01:08:06.059 A:middle L:90%
know if there's something that you need that we don't

1185
01:08:06.070 --> 01:08:12.400 A:middle L:90%
have. We can't can't buy everything, but mhm

1186
01:08:12.769 --> 01:08:15.670 A:middle L:90%
. Mhm, yeah, and I think that somebody

1187
01:08:15.670 --> 01:08:21.720 A:middle L:90%
might also tell Have a question asked is that if

1188
01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:25.520 A:middle L:90%
it was so specialized that it would would, you

1189
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:28.649 A:middle L:90%
know? So your needs while you were here,

1190
01:08:29.270 --> 01:08:30.390 A:middle L:90%
nobody else where we use it, That's the only

1191
01:08:30.390 --> 01:08:38.630 A:middle L:90%
thing I can possibly think. Then somebody hesitated looking

1192
01:08:38.630 --> 01:08:43.000 A:middle L:90%
into it. Not that you're adventurous, right?

1193
01:08:43.770 --> 01:08:47.100 A:middle L:90%
Mhm. I hope that was years ago. Yeah

1194
01:08:48.470 --> 01:08:57.699 A:middle L:90%
, Yeah. Questions at the have forensic Columbia University

1195
01:08:57.710 --> 01:08:59.079 A:middle L:90%
, and she can stay. And I sort of

1196
01:08:59.090 --> 01:09:01.989 A:middle L:90%
do a personal version of the Twitter thing where we

1197
01:09:01.989 --> 01:09:04.489 A:middle L:90%
just have this agree with each other. Really?

1198
01:09:04.489 --> 01:09:09.880 A:middle L:90%
An article. And just But now I'll also after

1199
01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.100 A:middle L:90%
that when requesting a library. I'm usually very late

1200
01:09:13.670 --> 01:09:15.050 A:middle L:90%
. Desperate have particle in that building. So that's

1201
01:09:15.050 --> 01:09:19.569 A:middle L:90%
the only thing that matters. You know, the

1202
01:09:19.569 --> 01:09:28.729 A:middle L:90%
statistics are getting it was like a library. Yeah

1203
01:09:36.369 --> 01:09:40.050 A:middle L:90%
, it's like potential. Everyone is getting faster,

1204
01:09:40.050 --> 01:09:42.409 A:middle L:90%
though. And especially on an article versus a book

1205
01:09:42.409 --> 01:09:46.300 A:middle L:90%
you can get an electronic scan in such okay Isn't

1206
01:09:46.310 --> 01:09:49.500 A:middle L:90%
as much of a like kind of things. Mhm

1207
01:09:50.670 --> 01:09:54.859 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, that statistic, like Patrick, says

1208
01:09:54.869 --> 01:09:57.789 A:middle L:90%
that we can know what's wanted that we can.

1209
01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:11.609 A:middle L:90%
This is about Yeah. I've noticed the same couple

1210
01:10:11.609 --> 01:10:14.090 A:middle L:90%
of people that will routinely send anything. So I

1211
01:10:14.090 --> 01:10:15.800 A:middle L:90%
think that people just keep opening a column and their

1212
01:10:15.810 --> 01:10:20.109 A:middle L:90%
Twitter client and just monitor it. So it's an

1213
01:10:20.109 --> 01:10:23.239 A:middle L:90%
open. It's not a back channel. This is

1214
01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:25.420 A:middle L:90%
like an open. It's just a tweet. Yeah

1215
01:10:25.420 --> 01:10:27.189 A:middle L:90%
, I mean, the idea is that you deleted

1216
01:10:27.189 --> 01:10:30.479 A:middle L:90%
after you received the the pdf so that there's no

1217
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:30.949 A:middle L:90%
record of it. But yeah, it's just a

1218
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:41.630 A:middle L:90%
tweet special hashtag and just a hypothetical question. Some

1219
01:10:41.630 --> 01:10:44.529 A:middle L:90%
of you seem to be really involved in creating open

1220
01:10:44.529 --> 01:10:50.760 A:middle L:90%
access publications of different types. You mentioned that message

1221
01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:54.800 A:middle L:90%
that pops up on Wikipedia occasionally asking, and they

1222
01:10:54.810 --> 01:10:57.199 A:middle L:90%
do provide, like an explanation, too, which

1223
01:10:57.199 --> 01:10:59.720 A:middle L:90%
is kind of nice. And then they ask you

1224
01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:04.199 A:middle L:90%
some questions about who you. But recently with along

1225
01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:09.939 A:middle L:90%
with Creative Commons, some authors have started publishing their

1226
01:11:09.949 --> 01:11:13.819 A:middle L:90%
work on A like How much you like to pay

1227
01:11:13.819 --> 01:11:15.680 A:middle L:90%
for it. Basically, do you? Do you

1228
01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:20.579 A:middle L:90%
think that's and seemingly managed to do Okay, It

1229
01:11:20.579 --> 01:11:24.460 A:middle L:90%
may be partly the prestige of the author for a

1230
01:11:24.460 --> 01:11:27.909 A:middle L:90%
doctor of being one of them, but do you

1231
01:11:27.909 --> 01:11:31.880 A:middle L:90%
think that's something? The journals kidding. Kidding?

1232
01:11:32.260 --> 01:11:36.250 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, well, I think it's worth exploring.

1233
01:11:36.260 --> 01:11:42.069 A:middle L:90%
Uh, certainly we've had software that has been financed

1234
01:11:42.069 --> 01:11:45.079 A:middle L:90%
on that basis for a very long time. And

1235
01:11:45.460 --> 01:11:49.619 A:middle L:90%
was it Stephen King, who published a novel chapter

1236
01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:53.340 A:middle L:90%
by chapter and said, Keep on publishing chapters?

1237
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:57.090 A:middle L:90%
If people paid him$5.10 dollars, whatever it was

1238
01:11:57.100 --> 01:12:00.340 A:middle L:90%
, maybe less than that breach chapter it must have

1239
01:12:00.340 --> 01:12:01.529 A:middle L:90%
been, I would guess it would have been less

1240
01:12:01.529 --> 01:12:02.979 A:middle L:90%
than that for a chapter, but I don't know

1241
01:12:03.449 --> 01:12:09.520 A:middle L:90%
. So anyway, that model is emerging. And

1242
01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:12.859 A:middle L:90%
then there's also the interesting model of self publishing where

1243
01:12:12.859 --> 01:12:15.789 A:middle L:90%
people are publishing things for a dollar or two,

1244
01:12:15.789 --> 01:12:18.159 A:middle L:90%
a copy and selling lots of copies sometimes. So

1245
01:12:18.170 --> 01:12:23.989 A:middle L:90%
, uh, that's another. That, along with

1246
01:12:23.989 --> 01:12:25.770 A:middle L:90%
the idea of asking people to pay, I guess

1247
01:12:25.770 --> 01:12:30.060 A:middle L:90%
some some musicians have published, uh albums and said

1248
01:12:30.069 --> 01:12:32.789 A:middle L:90%
Pay whatever you'd like and sometimes they've done very well

1249
01:12:32.789 --> 01:12:36.310 A:middle L:90%
by that. So, uh, that deserves to

1250
01:12:36.319 --> 01:12:41.359 A:middle L:90%
be explored. And if I could add, it

1251
01:12:41.369 --> 01:12:45.170 A:middle L:90%
brings up a really interesting point because almost everything,

1252
01:12:45.850 --> 01:12:47.859 A:middle L:90%
all of our discussion thus far has been predicated on

1253
01:12:47.859 --> 01:12:51.020 A:middle L:90%
the fact that somebody is already paying us that our

1254
01:12:51.020 --> 01:12:56.130 A:middle L:90%
creativity, in fact, is financed. Ultimately,

1255
01:12:56.130 --> 01:13:01.210 A:middle L:90%
in most instances here publicly So in fact, that

1256
01:13:01.220 --> 01:13:05.960 A:middle L:90%
is a slight worry, because these other kinds of

1257
01:13:05.970 --> 01:13:10.260 A:middle L:90%
models that you've that you've talked about are really important

1258
01:13:10.949 --> 01:13:15.310 A:middle L:90%
for independent scholarship because you don't want to have a

1259
01:13:15.310 --> 01:13:20.630 A:middle L:90%
situation where you're limiting a kind of a collective ability

1260
01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:25.789 A:middle L:90%
to contribute by institutional affiliation. So I think these

1261
01:13:25.789 --> 01:13:29.319 A:middle L:90%
kinds of things are actually really quite interesting and need

1262
01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:34.199 A:middle L:90%
to be kind of explored. Just ensure that kind

1263
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:35.619 A:middle L:90%
of getting back to my point earlier, that you

1264
01:13:35.619 --> 01:13:41.229 A:middle L:90%
might have completely open access for consumption, but maybe

1265
01:13:41.229 --> 01:13:45.399 A:middle L:90%
not completely open access for contribution. And that's the

1266
01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:48.189 A:middle L:90%
that's, I think, in part what you're maybe

1267
01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:50.279 A:middle L:90%
didn't directly allude to. But I think it's quite

1268
01:13:50.279 --> 01:13:54.449 A:middle L:90%
important we had a really interesting case just happened.

1269
01:13:54.460 --> 01:13:57.579 A:middle L:90%
This really just three days ago. We're were approached

1270
01:13:57.590 --> 01:13:59.729 A:middle L:90%
by a group that wants us to list one of

1271
01:13:59.729 --> 01:14:03.010 A:middle L:90%
our projects for crowdsourced funding so they actually want to

1272
01:14:03.020 --> 01:14:06.020 A:middle L:90%
just have random people will kind of donate for the

1273
01:14:06.029 --> 01:14:09.489 A:middle L:90%
for the effort, and it's, um it's really

1274
01:14:09.489 --> 01:14:10.960 A:middle L:90%
fascinating. I mean, they're just like, Hey

1275
01:14:10.970 --> 01:14:12.180 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we think you could do this

1276
01:14:12.189 --> 01:14:15.369 A:middle L:90%
and, um so that's a wholly different uh,

1277
01:14:15.380 --> 01:14:16.859 A:middle L:90%
it's It's not really in this rubric, but it's

1278
01:14:16.859 --> 01:14:19.380 A:middle L:90%
pretty darn close because They're basically saying, Look,

1279
01:14:19.390 --> 01:14:23.029 A:middle L:90%
you could put something out there and we've had,

1280
01:14:23.039 --> 01:14:26.100 A:middle L:90%
you know, folks getting 25$50,000 for these discrete

1281
01:14:26.109 --> 01:14:28.680 A:middle L:90%
projects that the public cares about. Imagine Ebola.

1282
01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:31.329 A:middle L:90%
You can, Uh, So, um, but

1283
01:14:31.329 --> 01:14:34.270 A:middle L:90%
I think it's an interesting model because, you know

1284
01:14:34.270 --> 01:14:36.229 A:middle L:90%
, again, just to reiterate. I mean,

1285
01:14:36.229 --> 01:14:40.680 A:middle L:90%
we've had a model that's partially predicated on public financing

1286
01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:44.899 A:middle L:90%
of our salaries and public financing of of our research

1287
01:14:44.909 --> 01:14:45.920 A:middle L:90%
, the results of which we want to make publicly

1288
01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:48.840 A:middle L:90%
available. But there are instances where that's not the

1289
01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:57.550 A:middle L:90%
whole Yeah, thanks there. Similar in that my

1290
01:14:57.550 --> 01:15:00.220 A:middle L:90%
research was funded. What do you say? I

1291
01:15:00.220 --> 01:15:03.430 A:middle L:90%
used to grant through my office, and so I

1292
01:15:03.439 --> 01:15:06.789 A:middle L:90%
definitely support of the access of data want to contribute

1293
01:15:06.789 --> 01:15:11.470 A:middle L:90%
to that. But it also costs a lot of

1294
01:15:11.470 --> 01:15:13.859 A:middle L:90%
money in for me, too. Girl, spend

1295
01:15:13.869 --> 01:15:16.060 A:middle L:90%
five months in jail and collect data. So if

1296
01:15:16.060 --> 01:15:20.430 A:middle L:90%
you do and it was really challenging and it's a

1297
01:15:20.430 --> 01:15:26.319 A:middle L:90%
very expensive and now there have ideas for several pictures

1298
01:15:26.319 --> 01:15:29.779 A:middle L:90%
, and some of I figured I can publish the

1299
01:15:29.789 --> 01:15:31.739 A:middle L:90%
parts of the data that they're relevant to. Those

1300
01:15:31.739 --> 01:15:34.590 A:middle L:90%
things and published doesn't correspond forever. But there are

1301
01:15:34.590 --> 01:15:40.010 A:middle L:90%
other parts that I'm just not ready to part with

1302
01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:41.739 A:middle L:90%
this thing because I know that there are a lot

1303
01:15:41.739 --> 01:15:44.250 A:middle L:90%
of people that you could do a lot of things

1304
01:15:44.250 --> 01:15:45.359 A:middle L:90%
. Decision to renounce this lot faster than here.

1305
01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:48.819 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, better publications with it. And it's sort

1306
01:15:48.819 --> 01:15:53.609 A:middle L:90%
of weird to feel this conflicting like ownership of the

1307
01:15:53.619 --> 01:15:56.819 A:middle L:90%
data because it was difficult to collective costly, but

1308
01:15:56.819 --> 01:15:58.500 A:middle L:90%
then also at the same time wanting to put it

1309
01:15:58.500 --> 01:16:00.970 A:middle L:90%
out there and share it with people are emailing requests

1310
01:16:00.970 --> 01:16:02.090 A:middle L:90%
and saying, Yeah, you have this primary social

1311
01:16:02.090 --> 01:16:04.329 A:middle L:90%
never missed and also let me use my tool on

1312
01:16:04.329 --> 01:16:06.220 A:middle L:90%
it. It's like, Well, how many tools

1313
01:16:06.220 --> 01:16:09.640 A:middle L:90%
can we use on before it becomes exhausted? So

1314
01:16:10.229 --> 01:16:12.300 A:middle L:90%
I don't know if there's anybody who's had some experience

1315
01:16:13.329 --> 01:16:15.539 A:middle L:90%
with that, but, well, uh huh,

1316
01:16:16.430 --> 01:16:23.489 A:middle L:90%
one of my research interests is how voting rules and

1317
01:16:23.489 --> 01:16:26.920 A:middle L:90%
I was in England and visited the Electoral Reform Society

1318
01:16:27.260 --> 01:16:30.529 A:middle L:90%
, went down to the basement and found rooms and

1319
01:16:30.529 --> 01:16:33.779 A:middle L:90%
rooms full of boxes of used balance, and I

1320
01:16:33.779 --> 01:16:36.340 A:middle L:90%
took one look at that and said, There's an

1321
01:16:36.340 --> 01:16:43.899 A:middle L:90%
NSF grant and I was right. Uh, I

1322
01:16:43.909 --> 01:16:46.000 A:middle L:90%
applied for a number of NSF grants. That was

1323
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.189 A:middle L:90%
one of the few that I got, Uh,

1324
01:16:48.199 --> 01:16:50.130 A:middle L:90%
so I told him, I'll take some of this

1325
01:16:50.130 --> 01:16:53.210 A:middle L:90%
data and get it coded and make it available to

1326
01:16:53.220 --> 01:16:57.390 A:middle L:90%
people who want to use it. And a member

1327
01:16:57.390 --> 01:16:59.270 A:middle L:90%
of papers have been written on the basis of that

1328
01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:02.159 A:middle L:90%
data. And in this particular case, I was

1329
01:17:02.159 --> 01:17:05.229 A:middle L:90%
confident enough that I could do things with the data

1330
01:17:05.229 --> 01:17:08.810 A:middle L:90%
that other people couldn't. I didn't mind giving it

1331
01:17:08.810 --> 01:17:13.699 A:middle L:90%
everybody right from the beginning. And if I just

1332
01:17:13.710 --> 01:17:15.960 A:middle L:90%
might interject on this, I think first off you've

1333
01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:16.460 A:middle L:90%
got to find a fine line because you've got to

1334
01:17:16.470 --> 01:17:20.010 A:middle L:90%
get the main thing done that you know, that

1335
01:17:20.020 --> 01:17:24.239 A:middle L:90%
that's going to be the out output of your work

1336
01:17:24.250 --> 01:17:27.130 A:middle L:90%
. But I had just as a vignette I had

1337
01:17:27.130 --> 01:17:30.270 A:middle L:90%
a student who insisted he had something cool enough to

1338
01:17:30.270 --> 01:17:32.409 A:middle L:90%
patent, and he did, and I really advised

1339
01:17:32.409 --> 01:17:35.140 A:middle L:90%
him. I don't think this is a good idea

1340
01:17:36.430 --> 01:17:40.869 A:middle L:90%
. He had another student with an equivalently good idea

1341
01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:43.939 A:middle L:90%
. Several minutes. I've had others, but basically

1342
01:17:43.939 --> 01:17:45.909 A:middle L:90%
, I said, I said, Please don't do

1343
01:17:45.909 --> 01:17:47.560 A:middle L:90%
that because the moment that you don't release it,

1344
01:17:48.430 --> 01:17:51.930 A:middle L:90%
people can't build on. It's just getting back to

1345
01:17:51.930 --> 01:17:55.050 A:middle L:90%
the citation, you know, That's kind of cool

1346
01:17:55.060 --> 01:17:57.369 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, and so the trajectory of those

1347
01:17:57.369 --> 01:18:00.460 A:middle L:90%
two students is vastly different. The person with the

1348
01:18:00.460 --> 01:18:02.779 A:middle L:90%
patent has collected. He's got a financial return,

1349
01:18:02.779 --> 01:18:05.550 A:middle L:90%
albeit not a huge one. But what he's lost

1350
01:18:05.550 --> 01:18:08.789 A:middle L:90%
is the career trajectory where he could have started a

1351
01:18:08.789 --> 01:18:12.840 A:middle L:90%
whole field of inquiry because that whole area is dead

1352
01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:15.590 A:middle L:90%
. That that he started that could have been this

1353
01:18:15.590 --> 01:18:17.199 A:middle L:90%
, like branch that would just flowered out. So

1354
01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:18.850 A:middle L:90%
I think you have to find this fine line where

1355
01:18:18.850 --> 01:18:20.720 A:middle L:90%
you're basically saying, Hey, look, you know

1356
01:18:20.729 --> 01:18:23.739 A:middle L:90%
what's my real goal? I just had this discussion

1357
01:18:23.739 --> 01:18:25.390 A:middle L:90%
with a post office the other day. I was

1358
01:18:25.390 --> 01:18:28.189 A:middle L:90%
like, Get your stuff out there So people can

1359
01:18:28.189 --> 01:18:30.430 A:middle L:90%
use it because once they use it, they'll cite

1360
01:18:30.430 --> 01:18:32.000 A:middle L:90%
it. They'll build on it and you'll see that

1361
01:18:32.010 --> 01:18:33.569 A:middle L:90%
, you know, citations to go from, you

1362
01:18:33.569 --> 01:18:38.069 A:middle L:90%
know, tins or scores to hundreds, because suddenly

1363
01:18:38.069 --> 01:18:39.750 A:middle L:90%
there kind of building out from your work. So

1364
01:18:39.750 --> 01:18:41.670 A:middle L:90%
that's the big trade off, right? So you

1365
01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:44.319 A:middle L:90%
it's just, uh you have to find the fine

1366
01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:45.350 A:middle L:90%
line. But if you get too much like this

1367
01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:48.760 A:middle L:90%
, you haven't really done the right thing. It

1368
01:18:48.770 --> 01:18:53.239 A:middle L:90%
will be out there eventually. Yeah, within.

1369
01:18:53.920 --> 01:18:56.149 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, That's a

1370
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:59.369 A:middle L:90%
couple papers Is fine waiting to do 20 papers on

1371
01:18:59.369 --> 01:19:01.670 A:middle L:90%
it. It's not a good idea. I would

1372
01:19:01.670 --> 01:19:04.640 A:middle L:90%
also suggest that you may want to reach out to

1373
01:19:04.649 --> 01:19:09.479 A:middle L:90%
someone with complementary expertise. I mean, you generated

1374
01:19:09.489 --> 01:19:13.229 A:middle L:90%
the experimental data to someone who has computational expertise or

1375
01:19:13.229 --> 01:19:16.109 A:middle L:90%
bioinformatics expertise. And I think you will find people

1376
01:19:16.109 --> 01:19:18.770 A:middle L:90%
who would want to help you. And ultimately,

1377
01:19:18.779 --> 01:19:23.850 A:middle L:90%
together you can generate faster, better quality publication.

1378
01:19:26.210 --> 01:19:29.310 A:middle L:90%
This would be a case where data citation might be

1379
01:19:29.310 --> 01:19:30.270 A:middle L:90%
a solution. I mean, if that was more

1380
01:19:30.270 --> 01:19:33.829 A:middle L:90%
accepted putting the oi, David said. But post

1381
01:19:33.829 --> 01:19:36.289 A:middle L:90%
publication because otherwise, you know she could end up

1382
01:19:36.300 --> 01:19:39.560 A:middle L:90%
losing the ability to publish her work as somebody else

1383
01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:42.220 A:middle L:90%
to jump to. Uh, have you guys heard

1384
01:19:42.220 --> 01:19:44.699 A:middle L:90%
of neon? The National Ecological Observatory network? It's

1385
01:19:44.699 --> 01:19:49.609 A:middle L:90%
like this NSS response to kind of ecological uniform ecological

1386
01:19:49.609 --> 01:19:53.659 A:middle L:90%
observations. It's a huge program, and the director

1387
01:19:53.659 --> 01:19:55.460 A:middle L:90%
of the program came and gave us a seminar.

1388
01:19:55.460 --> 01:19:57.710 A:middle L:90%
And he said, We think most of the papers

1389
01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:00.920 A:middle L:90%
from Neon are going to come out of China because

1390
01:20:00.920 --> 01:20:02.850 A:middle L:90%
there's so it's basically he basically said that anybody in

1391
01:20:02.850 --> 01:20:05.149 A:middle L:90%
the world could get at the moment that it's collected

1392
01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:10.439 A:middle L:90%
and there's an immense interest in the science of it

1393
01:20:11.010 --> 01:20:13.390 A:middle L:90%
and that you know you could. And there's just

1394
01:20:13.390 --> 01:20:16.270 A:middle L:90%
more people. And so there's this, you know

1395
01:20:16.270 --> 01:20:18.039 A:middle L:90%
, once it's there, anybody can write on it

1396
01:20:18.899 --> 01:20:21.409 A:middle L:90%
. And so and people will. And so just

1397
01:20:21.409 --> 01:20:24.789 A:middle L:90%
to have the director of a major National Science Foundation

1398
01:20:24.789 --> 01:20:26.659 A:middle L:90%
program saying I don't think the U. S scientists

1399
01:20:26.659 --> 01:20:31.520 A:middle L:90%
are major contributors using our$60 million network was telling

1400
01:20:31.529 --> 01:20:33.979 A:middle L:90%
because And that's the thing you have to, you

1401
01:20:33.979 --> 01:20:35.699 A:middle L:90%
know, if you're if you put five months into

1402
01:20:35.699 --> 01:20:38.970 A:middle L:90%
it, it's sweat equity, get what you get

1403
01:20:38.970 --> 01:20:41.270 A:middle L:90%
out of it and then get, you know,

1404
01:20:41.270 --> 01:20:48.630 A:middle L:90%
and then put your data for data site question.

1405
01:20:51.909 --> 01:20:57.949 A:middle L:90%
No great future for open, obvious sources. One

1406
01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:01.350 A:middle L:90%
is just re use of resources. So my question

1407
01:21:01.350 --> 01:21:04.750 A:middle L:90%
is, should we keep the trace for all the

1408
01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:10.619 A:middle L:90%
parts because from the operation should be a law student

1409
01:21:11.399 --> 01:21:15.039 A:middle L:90%
. What kind of better if we can get Yeah

1410
01:21:18.210 --> 01:21:19.829 A:middle L:90%
, well, the cool. Maybe it's just that

1411
01:21:19.840 --> 01:21:27.710 A:middle L:90%
backs we create a new publishing and from somehow open

1412
01:21:27.710 --> 01:21:31.439 A:middle L:90%
sources and but part of this has a different emotions

1413
01:21:31.760 --> 01:21:38.010 A:middle L:90%
and the mobile arm, maybe we build a new

1414
01:21:38.010 --> 01:21:42.430 A:middle L:90%
feature on the new new worship. Those, uh

1415
01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:45.460 A:middle L:90%
, those are open sources. So to me,

1416
01:21:45.470 --> 01:21:48.229 A:middle L:90%
it's basically keep those information for this new publication.

1417
01:21:49.310 --> 01:21:53.039 A:middle L:90%
That's just fine on point. But I need to

1418
01:21:53.050 --> 01:21:57.109 A:middle L:90%
know from the open resource exports, expertise view,

1419
01:21:57.119 --> 01:21:59.819 A:middle L:90%
how do you think about caring for those information?

1420
01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:04.529 A:middle L:90%
Because maybe many women would make resources much complicated because

1421
01:22:04.539 --> 01:22:09.020 A:middle L:90%
there were many resources being involved in a new publication

1422
01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:12.369 A:middle L:90%
. So that may be the information is much complicated

1423
01:22:12.470 --> 01:22:16.840 A:middle L:90%
. Feature is half the keeping people that collect information

1424
01:22:16.850 --> 01:22:20.229 A:middle L:90%
about. So how do you think? Yeah,

1425
01:22:25.100 --> 01:22:29.850 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, I'm not so sure. Personally, I

1426
01:22:29.850 --> 01:22:31.340 A:middle L:90%
think that might be something that will emerge as these

1427
01:22:31.340 --> 01:22:34.489 A:middle L:90%
systems develop ways to keep straight sort of the source

1428
01:22:34.489 --> 01:22:39.029 A:middle L:90%
of the data and where who they originated from and

1429
01:22:39.029 --> 01:22:42.489 A:middle L:90%
so on. Yeah, I think that's a tough

1430
01:22:42.489 --> 01:22:44.000 A:middle L:90%
question, though. I think I mentioned before that

1431
01:22:44.010 --> 01:22:45.800 A:middle L:90%
I'm digitizing data and providing it to the public,

1432
01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:49.050 A:middle L:90%
and people tend to credit me with the data.

1433
01:22:49.060 --> 01:22:50.539 A:middle L:90%
But I I didn't collect it. All I did

1434
01:22:50.539 --> 01:22:53.840 A:middle L:90%
was trying it from pdf into C. S V

1435
01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:55.420 A:middle L:90%
. And I feel a little uncomfortable about that.

1436
01:22:55.420 --> 01:22:57.619 A:middle L:90%
But I can't run around the Internet and make everyone

1437
01:22:57.619 --> 01:22:59.899 A:middle L:90%
changes. So it is sort of a difficult thing

1438
01:22:59.899 --> 01:23:03.380 A:middle L:90%
to to keep straight. But I'm hoping that practices

1439
01:23:03.380 --> 01:23:09.220 A:middle L:90%
emerge over time that clarify one thing I've seen in

1440
01:23:09.220 --> 01:23:12.590 A:middle L:90%
some sources the first citation style. So we were

1441
01:23:12.590 --> 01:23:15.659 A:middle L:90%
the aggregated putting together a creator. You have a

1442
01:23:15.659 --> 01:23:18.359 A:middle L:90%
spot. So it's actually the spirit. You kind

1443
01:23:18.359 --> 01:23:21.880 A:middle L:90%
of need them to write citations giving the credit.

1444
01:23:23.890 --> 01:23:26.750 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, the library. And I really appreciate when

1445
01:23:26.750 --> 01:23:28.859 A:middle L:90%
I go find citations and oh my God, I'm

1446
01:23:28.859 --> 01:23:31.270 A:middle L:90%
not the author. You know, that's a good

1447
01:23:31.270 --> 01:23:38.729 A:middle L:90%
idea. One thing I've heard about recently from whatever

1448
01:23:38.729 --> 01:23:42.920 A:middle L:90%
other colleagues of data journals where you can, depending

1449
01:23:42.920 --> 01:23:45.229 A:middle L:90%
on their guidelines, you can sometimes publish your data

1450
01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:50.460 A:middle L:90%
. That and then have sort of the credit for

1451
01:23:50.460 --> 01:23:56.350 A:middle L:90%
it. But then sometimes even, maybe be a

1452
01:23:56.359 --> 01:23:59.260 A:middle L:90%
person to publish on it for a certain period of

1453
01:23:59.270 --> 01:24:01.149 A:middle L:90%
time and then. But it's still open to the

1454
01:24:01.159 --> 01:24:04.180 A:middle L:90%
people. Look at you. Have you all encountered

1455
01:24:04.350 --> 01:24:06.460 A:middle L:90%
this is new to me. And have you encountered

1456
01:24:06.460 --> 01:24:12.539 A:middle L:90%
anything like that? Yes, we were contacted ones

1457
01:24:12.539 --> 01:24:15.869 A:middle L:90%
from such a journal and asked us whether we want

1458
01:24:15.880 --> 01:24:19.149 A:middle L:90%
to. Actually, I'm considering it. We published

1459
01:24:19.149 --> 01:24:23.770 A:middle L:90%
already some results out of the data set. You

1460
01:24:23.770 --> 01:24:27.159 A:middle L:90%
want to publish more, but ultimately, I can

1461
01:24:27.159 --> 01:24:30.020 A:middle L:90%
choose to deposit the data in the data repository or

1462
01:24:30.390 --> 01:24:33.770 A:middle L:90%
publish it as a data set and it's an additional

1463
01:24:33.770 --> 01:24:39.909 A:middle L:90%
publication. It would be the product. Yes.

1464
01:24:41.289 --> 01:24:44.939 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, and it's a two page, maybe not

1465
01:24:44.939 --> 01:24:47.239 A:middle L:90%
even that much text. And it's heavily focused the

1466
01:24:47.250 --> 01:24:50.569 A:middle L:90%
road data itself. Does it ask you to describe

1467
01:24:50.579 --> 01:24:57.170 A:middle L:90%
how you, uh, that is required? This

1468
01:24:57.170 --> 01:25:00.590 A:middle L:90%
is what I mentioned earlier. I open access.

1469
01:25:00.590 --> 01:25:03.060 A:middle L:90%
I'm thinking not just journalists, data repositories, And

1470
01:25:03.060 --> 01:25:05.840 A:middle L:90%
in our area, there is plenty of data available

1471
01:25:05.859 --> 01:25:10.359 A:middle L:90%
. They are not annotated completely. So you have

1472
01:25:10.359 --> 01:25:13.949 A:middle L:90%
access to it. You can browse through the information

1473
01:25:13.960 --> 01:25:16.829 A:middle L:90%
, but not having all experimental details. You have

1474
01:25:16.829 --> 01:25:20.159 A:middle L:90%
to be very cautious about how you interpret or how

1475
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:29.449 A:middle L:90%
you use that information. Yeah, a lot in

1476
01:25:29.460 --> 01:25:34.319 A:middle L:90%
standards for possible. So we have amendments. Companies

1477
01:25:34.550 --> 01:25:39.390 A:middle L:90%
, there album is also possible. So what?

1478
01:25:39.390 --> 01:25:42.489 A:middle L:90%
This this time? Uh huh. Is there anyone

1479
01:25:42.489 --> 01:25:45.100 A:middle L:90%
or any company working on the standards for the path

1480
01:25:46.260 --> 01:25:49.699 A:middle L:90%
that means on the on the divide, your,

1481
01:25:49.699 --> 01:25:54.600 A:middle L:90%
uh, open results possibly could be in the active

1482
01:25:54.609 --> 01:25:58.260 A:middle L:90%
together and actually, in the future, you can

1483
01:25:58.270 --> 01:26:02.649 A:middle L:90%
have a central send a parcel open source website in

1484
01:26:02.659 --> 01:26:09.960 A:middle L:90%
which good upset All the different different outcomes are possible

1485
01:26:10.140 --> 01:26:15.390 A:middle L:90%
in the back hand. Mhm. So is any

1486
01:26:15.619 --> 01:26:20.310 A:middle L:90%
committee working on this stand up for We are mhm

1487
01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:29.300 A:middle L:90%
have such a potentially spend working on these this country

1488
01:26:30.579 --> 01:26:32.939 A:middle L:90%
? Uh, actually, uh, industry fields.

1489
01:26:32.949 --> 01:26:39.079 A:middle L:90%
We do have a simple that a GCR for the

1490
01:26:39.130 --> 01:26:43.890 A:middle L:90%
positive systems. Constantly. Currently exports to Well,

1491
01:26:43.890 --> 01:26:49.000 A:middle L:90%
that would be involved by open source piece. Yeah

1492
01:26:50.680 --> 01:26:54.729 A:middle L:90%
, they ought to be interested. You know,

1493
01:26:54.739 --> 01:26:59.189 A:middle L:90%
I think about where we're up. Sure there are

1494
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:00.739 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, again, coming back to large

1495
01:27:00.739 --> 01:27:03.689 A:middle L:90%
scale data they process is in development. So they

1496
01:27:03.699 --> 01:27:08.350 A:middle L:90%
set minimal standards for genomic data, proteomics, micro

1497
01:27:08.359 --> 01:27:13.710 A:middle L:90%
data and even for some of the data depositors that

1498
01:27:13.720 --> 01:27:16.810 A:middle L:90%
research. So you have to fill in a fairly

1499
01:27:16.810 --> 01:27:23.680 A:middle L:90%
lengthy form with experimental details before you can deposit your

1500
01:27:23.689 --> 01:27:28.489 A:middle L:90%
data. So I think the idea is working,

1501
01:27:28.979 --> 01:27:30.710 A:middle L:90%
but I, I assume, still can be improved

1502
01:27:31.680 --> 01:27:36.109 A:middle L:90%
. But regardless of that, it's uh huh generating

1503
01:27:36.109 --> 01:27:41.489 A:middle L:90%
some of these data there. Hundreds of parameters.

1504
01:27:41.489 --> 01:27:45.310 A:middle L:90%
And essentially, I wouldn't want to say impossible,

1505
01:27:45.319 --> 01:27:49.359 A:middle L:90%
nearly impossible to provide all experimental details. So there

1506
01:27:49.359 --> 01:27:56.390 A:middle L:90%
is always some room for misinterpretation. But Jesse asked

1507
01:27:56.880 --> 01:27:59.159 A:middle L:90%
, You cover some of the future. You just

1508
01:27:59.159 --> 01:28:02.729 A:middle L:90%
mentioned that whatever you say, that industry field is

1509
01:28:02.729 --> 01:28:08.489 A:middle L:90%
very common stand. So maybe the future vehicle we're

1510
01:28:08.619 --> 01:28:14.640 A:middle L:90%
looking for. I think it's very important. It's

1511
01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:16.000 A:middle L:90%
very important for the nexus for this type of this

1512
01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:23.229 A:middle L:90%
has to meet those standards. Mhm. Um,

1513
01:28:23.239 --> 01:28:29.829 A:middle L:90%
let's give our panel the round of a very much

1514
01:28:29.939 --> 01:28:33.819 A:middle L:90%
for spending this time and coming and talking with There's

1515
01:28:33.819 --> 01:28:35.819 A:middle L:90%
lots of food in the back. We expect that

1516
01:28:35.819 --> 01:28:40.609 A:middle L:90%
it will be all gone by the time it's time

1517
01:28:40.609 --> 01:28:42.979 A:middle L:90%
to go, so Oh, God. Enjoy.

1518
01:28:42.989 --> 01:29:00.609 A:middle L:90%
Thank you very much. Mm hmm.