things that you had. Uh, my name is
Gloria Kennedy. Um, when I attended Good Shepherd
Episcopal Church, I was Gloria and Wesley. Uh
huh. That's that's great. Thank you. I'm
Helen Monday with I was not a member. Good
check. Mhm. But my husband decided to join
it and all. He and all five of the
kids were baptized together The same that and so I
had to go that church because I have to take
your kids every Sunday. And I worked with them
quite a bit in the church. But I didn't
join the Episcopal Church until we moved later. I'll
ask you about years to if you any time.
Do you know what year the baptisms took place?
Yeah, it was 1960 close and, I don't
know, exactly half closed. But I know at
that time, all of my Children and my youngest
was probably two or three years old. All of
them were baptized as my so it had to be
. She was born in 1957. She was about
three years, So we'll be about 1960. Okay
. Thank you. My name is Gloria Cardwell.
When I came to Lynchburg in 1963 hours, Gloria
. Like most, I attended Grace. I'm sorry
I attended Good Shepherd up until it closed. What
years do you recall? I'm not sure. It
was. I might have been there a couple of
years before. Close. Okay. Thank you.
My name is the lowest down from hate. And
which one? Uh huh. Really remember. But
here, with so glorious father was really instrumental in
giving us to go to start coming through. Yeah
, Mother. My two brothers and all through my
Children jump. My father did not join, but
he was instrumental in working and doing doing whatever needed
. We have to be done. Thank you.
My name is Patricia Parrish. Dad meet. And
when I attended the Church of the Good Shepherd,
I was Patricia Parrish was the only member of my
family who attended the festival church. All the others
were Baptists. And, of course, we lived
in Diamond Hill. And they all attended manager.
And I'll ask you in a moment, why you
chose to 10 Good shepherd and everyone else was at
the Baptist Church and also with us is an vanda
graft. And we are at the home of Hans
and and Van de Graaff in Lynchburg, Virginia.
Today is April 24th, 19, 2015. So
if I can just ask a little bit about your
history with good shepherd and we'll get to the integration
at some point. And did you have a comment
? Um, if you want to just tell me
I'm interested in telling your having You tell your story
. And I, um we'll let you all talk
among yourselves as well. So whatever feels comfortable.
And however you want to start, there's no rule
at this point. Well, I love um,
Yeah, I was born into this. I don't
remember the dates. Mhm. My started going there
too low. But I have pictures showing that I
was Christmas. And I think this if you're comfortable
, I would love for you all to share years
as well as you recall them. 53 1930.
So I was christened. Probably in there? Yes
, Uh, very small. From what? The
pictures. Oh, when the sun is going on
, um, from son of school age on the
I'm sure there were other ministers, but the only
minister really remember and new closely was Reverend John Teeter
. His family mhm. I believe he was there
. Maybe start sudden. Mhm. Oh, mhm
. 1963 solid 10. Mhm made a big me
was also confirmed. And which number the day?
Probably it was before Reverend here left. Yeah,
he confirmed. So I was Yeah. Thank you
. When I came, Came from Rich and Mm
safe church where I was born and raised and confirmed
Christian. And there were a couple of supply priests
Good shepherd when I came. And one, Bill
Parrish and I thank you. Mm. This was
in the 70 or no late sixties, I guess
. Do you remember the year you moved? I
came here in 63 that's the year I started because
I live right down the street would have a good
time right here at my doorstep. And then they
closed. So I'm not sure the year but think
couple of years. Yeah, Mhm. Close the
doors. You know you can take There were it
was a small congregation and I wasn't surprised when it
was closed because it was so small. And that
was what I thought at first was the reason for
it being then? Yes, that trying to right
Who told you that you called? Yeah. No
, I heard it later from again from my current
Kathryn Montgomery. Mhm. What we were doing.
Thank you. Around all of all the spaces or
places where the church and in this word excuse me
one of the things she stated and talking about.
And that was recently. You did the history?
Yes, in the past, maybe five other stories
about your early times at good Shepherd. We started
because they snake. And so Dr West? Yes
, he had been. And then we started going
my mother's side, him there. And Bobby,
I didn't like going to It's true else. When
he had was small, they had communion. And
, of course, when they served communion, you
know, they passed the bread. Wow. And
he got real discussed. He couldn't have Kool Aid
and sandwiches when they had, um, Communion.
And he really could. We tried to make him
understand, but he couldn't. He would. So
, you know, he just said he wasn't going
back anymore. So Dr Wesley Long and I was
used to go into the Catholic Church building the summers
in Baltimore, and I really didn't like it.
And my brother went to say, um Saint illness
and rich private kept. So we're there. Bring
us to the Catholic Church. Wanted, you know
, for the service. Like and Dr Wesley told
my mom Don't have to go. Can like a
puzzle. It's almost The services are basically the same
. Almost. Finally, come and go with us
. So we did we start? Yeah, right
. And my mother Uh huh. Name was Francis
. She was first and then was confirmed. And
later Oh, and my youngest brother, Of course
. He was confirmed along with my mother. Yeah
. Then I guess around the time around the time
cool over here was confirmed. Bachelor. Yeah.
Think that. And now everyone white dresses. And
then my old has been my my He found he
John and his fiance John. Also because they were
married. Name was Teacher Johnson. And her name
was Anyway. They are. Yeah. Lot of
Baptists young. The Sunday school through church is a
very long time. Mm. Leave blank. About
13. 13. Just started attending church all day
on Sunday was something that I just didn't want to
do. Man, I had heard that church on
y street that you were in and out. So
I decided that since that was in walking distance where
I live done 15th Street, that I could just
walk to that church and be a part of that
sort be home. Therefore, most friends just out
of Sunday school at Diamond Hill. That is how
I got started attending the church. I did not
get confirmed December 1960. So of course I was
18 left and went to college. And when I
came back time, I came back closing the church
. And like Mrs Wet, I did not you
see as closing because of integration, I was sort
of told that the congregation had gotten so very small
. Most of the parishes try going to be closed
regardless. So I then decided to visit a couple
of churches. Oh, sublets ST Paul's because they
were so very friendly there and decided to attend the
eight o'clock service. Since I was probably the only
African American actually there at eight o'clock, so I've
decided to stay there at eight o'clock. Get out
out about 8. 45 when you're young, you
don't really want to stay at church all the time
, so that is really how I got started and
your testicle church. Just a time thing for me
. Love the church of the good ship. The
only person from my family there. So they adopted
me as one of theirs. Every family in that
church was a friend. I was told their child
. I love the wits and have been with the
wits now for ever since then we all changed to
say points. There were the Owens back stones.
Remember the just mostly Mosul monetary, monetary Dr Jackson
. Dr Bracelet. Just Everybody was sort of family
in the church. It was just a family church
. There were a few people that came in up
on wise, a couple of teenagers that came in
period cattle. But it was to me. It
was just a wonderful small family church course. Father
Teeter, as I called him, did do my
confirmation December 1960. Thank you. My father Tito
was very active. And civil Rights. Mm hmm
. I think he was hauled off to jail.
Yeah, he was arrested one time. I think
it was set in that the students, the students
sit in it. Yes, and all of that
is included on that. But Also, I think
he wasn't. He thrown off the steps of Jones
Memorial Library because life went mhm. People were trying
library, and he was with them. So what
? It didn't affect your services That we have a
good very They It was. He was good.
Everybody loved everybody. Hey, did you know when
when he left? It was a bad time.
Um, we could have tied him and Kevin here
. I think we would. He was just He
was just band to earth, and he just he
just We were all just everybody was this my man
? My father was not a member of that.
He along, he was. I guess you could
sit and adopt trustee or whatever it was because whatever
had to be done. Finance? Yeah, Anything
. He was always right in sync with Dr Wesley
and Mr Moultrie and another gentleman named Charlie. Uh
, well, they were their their dad. It
was a Baptist, and so was Charlie. But
everyone as much as they attended, and as much
as they did there, and people thought that they
would do all members of the good shepherd, which
, in a way of speaking there they were.
You know they because they they would come with us
to church. And then when when service was over
, Right had said you could go. You could
get back in town. It's in the Baptist.
The kids were sitting there. Are you going with
us? Yeah, I'm going. You got to
go back with a lot of church. But,
you know, we went, we went early,
and then they were able to get home and go
with him to Sunday school and then go to I'm
not the spirit. I mean, church would mhm
let me get back to Helen. We jumped around
a little bit, and, uh, that's fine
, because I am the only non member of Good
Children Church. But my husband grew up in Pocahontas
, Virginia, in the coal mining area. His
mother belonged to Baptist Church, and they were raised
in the Baptist Church, but he didn't like the
Baptist Church because they beg money too much. He
hated the idea of begging money. He said the
members should support their own church. So when we
moved about four doors up the street from good Champion
Church, right across from the mellows, um,
he his sister had met someone in Bush here.
I don't know if she had a job or is
that a way of I don't, But I don't
think she did. I think she just attended.
Yes, but my husband found out about it and
he decided that he'd go down and check it out
. And so he fell in love with. We
had five Children, five Children. And so he
started going. And then, of course, I
had to go and take the five Children and stretch
them from the role of the church. So everybody
knew me and thought that I was also remember.
But at first he was just going and I was
going with him. But then he decided to be
baptized and all five Children along with him. So
they had quite a big baptism. That and,
uh, I still did not join because I belong
to my family church. And I also went to
Diamond Hill Church a lot because my daddy was a
custodian of Dominica Church and we cleaned it helped him
clean. We knew every interdenominational church, so I
had no desire at the time to change churches.
But I always would stand there. It good shepherd
because my whole family was. And then after we
moved to, he moved to Good Shepherd. When
the church was closed. I do pretty much everything
that he knew that was going on in good shape
. And he was very unhappy that they wanted to
close. And we were never told that they were
close it to integrate. Uh, we were told
that all small churches in the diocese were being closed
because they did not have the proper amount of of
rectors to place everywhere. And they also we're not
getting enough finance from the little church is to be
able to for the diocese to hire new people.
And that's what we were told. Okay, so
I had no voice in that. But my husband
, you know, said what must be most people
. He wasn't happy about it, But good shepherd
church was a real friendly church. Her dad,
you were talking about her day, and Dr Wesley
was my family doctor. And I loved him,
dear. He would take me on Sunday mornings when
I had my, uh, silence attacks and he
would blow spray my head up so that I could
breathe. I've been going crying and come out black
. And so I knew practically everybody there. Miss
Motor had been one of my teachers when I was
in elementary school and I knew Mrs Johnson, who
lives like their pace, was not okay. She
you did, She lived. She was an abbot
member, all of the church, and one of
my best friends, Natalie Jackson, uh was a
real sweetheart. I loved her dearly. So I
loved everybody. And I didn't mind participating at Good
Shepherd Church, even though it took me a while
to learn the difference in what goes on there and
what went on in the Baptist Church. But,
uh, when they moved the church, are you
ready to get into? I'm ready. Yes.
When they decided to close the church, they Bishop
Mari, in whom I love dearly. And his
wife and my husband spent lots of nights and Bishop
Marion's house in Rano because when they had the conventions
and everything and they went as delegates, Hotaru no
would not allow them to stay there and Bishop Mama
opened his house and had them come and stay at
his house. And I thought that was truly a
step forward, although integration was not a problem for
me because my father is white and my mother is
African American and they married. Even though the law
says they couldn't enter America, they married and they
had two girls. But anyway, so I'm sure
your parents names Joseph Hamlet Monday, and any allows
hers. Atkins Monday. Thank you. And they
married. In what year? What year did they
marry? But here did they marry? I never
knew the exact year that they married, but my
sister was born. They had been married a couple
of years before. My sister was born in 1930
I was born in 1932. Thank you. So
integration was not upsetting for me because my dad Carlos
, my sister me everywhere he went and we said
in white barbershops while he got a haircut, we
went everywhere. We went to Miller Park, even
though other African Americans could not go to Miller Park
anywhere that my daddy could go. My sister and
I so we were used to being involved. So
that was a problem for me and Bishop. Mommy
in had grabbing Robert Smith, who was an interim
paster and, uh, uh, Saint Paul's come
to all of our houses. Well, I know
that he came to l. A and we knew
that the ministers of the big churches were told by
Bishop Mommy in that they had to visit the member
people's houses and invite them to people who are closest
to that church. And they were closer to grace
. Uh, but they ended up they visited.
My parents, visited all of the churches. They
were closest to grace, but they decided to go
to ST Paul and ST John's. They weren't ST
John's for for a little while, but I think
my mother preferred ST Paul for whatever whatever reasons.
And she went there from the time joining right out
. Yeah, right after the shepherd closed till till
she died. Mhm. Well, for my mother
and I have all old lost$2. My oldest
one day in a car accident with my mom and
, of course, was awesome. A lot of
films, so, you know, we had service
at. And also when Mrs Francine a pan passed
, she was a member of good. Yes,
she And by teaching school and and the Canada and
thanks in this city I'm not. Her husband was
. The coach is done by time. So everybody
knew them. So they had her service and thank
I want to. And this was before Really think
what year? Roughly. Now for them. Probably
63. 60. So 62. So chapel of
the Good Shepherd was still open, But the funeral
was at ST Paul's because it was so large out
there and they could look at they went closed wire
street out front, the Vatican again. And mhm
. Yeah, they we were close. Like I
said, Alias. And Mm. When my kids
firm dot them is what? No. And do
you recall that the population had declined around the time
that it was closed? If that was the reason
, did it make sense to you? No,
it isn't. Excuse me. It didn't make sense
to me. It didn't. You know, I
understand. Yeah. My husband wasn't real happy.
I don't understand what the members of the older men
really close with either, but they were like I
said, we were told that we weren't able to
circle white cells. We could not, um,
support ourselves and that since they you know what?
Yeah, you know they not only after we were
told they were going to close all small churches that
were not self sufficient and could not support they closed
one right out of Madison Heights. I knew some
people who went to that church and they got closed
and I was told, or I understood that Bishop
Mommy was closing all small churches. It was never
mentioned to us that the idea for closing was integrated
. Second, if a larger church was closed by
the places like, I guess Allah vista and synching
up in animals. And you know where it wasn't
one real, real close. I mean, that
was my understanding that all about Father Did any of
your Children go to hemlock Haven to the so camp
? The Episcopal Diocese. You went there and then
, um, was there a remembrance ever been or
I can't say his name, but he was after
Peter and way those This other minister got my mom
follow involved sending me their micro wasn't McRae works.
I know he was a minister. Two. That's
when you all say that my areas I didn't know
him one with when we first started going and we
had a black priest. Father. When? When
I first when I first started. Which was what
year do you call It? Had to be in
France. Mhm. Wow. So it had mhm
first stop. Have to be to expect this.
Like I was thinking the same thing, but I
didn't know I couldn't his name, but he didn't
, wasn't there? Every Sunday, it was like
, you know, we had a priest, maybe
12 Sundays a month back in that day, and
we really did. I did not know what his
name was because I was young then just attending the
church. You were in and out anyway. But
that was an African American. And then we would
have they would send a vegan from ST Paul.
This lawyer was named Ernest Frost. He would come
. And do you know deacons do that part of
the service? Yeah. What was Reverend build a
parish? Yes. Uh huh. Mhm. He
wasn't there all the time, either. And remember
Culbertson? Yeah, Yeah, I forgot Robin Paris
or one of the ministers had three churches. They
went to Paris because we had a choice of.
He told us we had a meeting and we had
myself. He is ready. One service, nine
o'clock on Sunday morning. Then he would go somewhere
else. A feat of the animals or elephants at
11 and then one at three. But since we
gave us that first, so we picked nine o'clock
. That's how everybody that side as we go to
church at nine o'clock have services nine. And then
Sunday school after service. And then he would go
to Amazon and ST Lukes peddler Mills. And then
he would go to Blockbuster. Would be on Sunday
afternoon, set out to visit to Chatham. Do
you recall it was out of this stuff. It
might have been in between. I'm not sure,
but I think it was out of us went through
for the last there it was at that time they
had the church in maths and heights right down in
the lower end near the road. Uh, and
he may have gone to that because Amazon had kept
that church open. Faith? Well, it might
have been it might have been down there, but
I know it was over. Now it's kind of
some I'm not gonna say exactly, but anyway,
I know he had We had we took the nine
, and then when they told us that we had
, you know, they were going to close.
And do you remember who told you the media was
the bishop there? Or was it Father Parish?
Maybe, Or you don't remember? I don't remember
. But they called you all together and announced that
it was going to be closed. Made an announcement
that we would have a meeting. I'm not sure
when pointing, but I remember we had this leading
and mostly everybody so and I really came from told
us. But I know we were told, but
they will be closing us. And the reason not
able female. When Robin Smith came, well,
I guess before he came to our house, he
called and said he asked, could he come?
And when and so forth. And when he came
to our house and even before he came, he
explained that the churches were being closed and that Bishop
Mama was closing all small churches because of the two
reasons. Instead, we were self sufficient. I
said we, but the church was not self sufficient
, and, uh, they didn't have the reptiles
to place it. Not once Did we ever hear
anything about integration that surprised? Were you aware of
the struggles in the diocese over the issue of immigration
, particularly around him? Lock haven. I was
aware of the fact that there were many people at
all the churches that didn't want us to come,
and we used to have to go to meetings and
so forth, and one of the guys at ST
Paul's was in the state Senate or something, and
he made it perfectly clear that he had particularly,
like, sit next to black people in meetings and
things, so we knew that they weren't gonna be
happy about it. But my husband had hoped that
since we had a family of Children that the people
with Children, our ages, would be receptive to
us. But we were told to visit first.
We got that, and it was the older people
. I guess Miss Putnam Cow was probably close to
70 at that time, and people her age welcomed
us in the people who had Children. My Children's
ages did not make any efforts. Two, You
know, say we're glad you here we do does
, and some of the Children, if you want
your Children to attend. And as my kids got
older, um, they joined the youth group,
and whenever they were planning something, it was Well
, we're going skiing Sunday. What are you people
going to do? And you want to tell her
about the you people? Paula didn't game. Was
that one of the meetings? And they ask what
? What you people don't do, Engage them.
Well, we people are going to do the same
thing I wish. I wish my kids had been
smart enough to say you can go to heaven.
She went to him, not even one year.
I think we were living at the same time.
And gay also went to quit with hotel area.
And when they heard that accident, then there she
she was. Then I would say she injects Formerly
the group. Yeah, I think Charlotte Fischer went
on that trip recently email from, uh, from
Bishop. Because we've been communicating, especially since my
mother was real set over the years, you know
, he was in Richmond, um, at ST
policy, physical and rich Eastern. And so I
emailed him and he emailed me back. I always
love him. Mhm. Really nice. Yeah,
well, despite the fact that my Children did not
enjoy being part of the youth group. But they
knew to please that daddy, you know, they
would go ahead and a 10. All five of
them were confirmed at Saint Paul's Church and all four
of my daughters got married at ST Paul's Church.
But then after that, other than going for certain
activities, they have no real desire because they didn't
get to know the youth and everything because that it
was you people. And we are going to do
such and such a thing. What are you people
going to do? And with having five kids,
you don't have money to send your kids on a
skin, Trevor often. I mean, you know
, we would have probably found the money somewhere if
they had said they wanted, but they didn't like
the idea of being you people. And we're gonna
do this. And so, But you're going to
be kind of left Agra dollars. If if you
go, you still would be left out. No
. Um, did any of your Children go to
him? Lock? Haven I never I never even
knew about I don't know what the You know her
. I know the gay and I went together,
and I knew that it was of importance that we
go, but I didn't realize exactly why. Um
, and and the feelings that we got being the
old we were the only two black kids there that
summer. Do you remember which summer it was?
It's okay. I really don't. I probably to
find out number right now, but it was It
was different, you know? And it wasn't welcoming
, you know, I didn't have a welcoming feeling
, nothing gay. And I'm just kind of around
here, girl. Okay. Said I don't care
what you're saying. What? I'm not going back
at all. I mean, you know that it
was that Francis she she didn't want to go.
And Francis wasn't as I ain't going as gay.
I'm so I knew was never needed me insisting that
she but my dad could tell gay and then in
the okay into doing lost anything. You know,
they said, you know, come on today,
wake up. And they said about was Colombia's going
, you know, something like it. So and
they would. So she went. And even when
she went to Ecuador. She wasn't too. And
there, um, child in Belmar. Oh,
coming out and go on and you're going to have
Uh huh. But that little group was a little
bit better because they did car washes and things together
. Some of the other kids, you know,
I guess they've gotten a little bit older. And
they did watches and get really had a good time
in. You said, Yeah. Always had hopes
of the one back then, right? Say very
true. Well, you remember that. And guests
there are, You know, it was sad for
them there and that. And the jeep that really
got hit with the mhm and the blood slide.
Some boy had gotten a new camera and gave us
supposed to be in the energy. He asked Gay
, which she trade seats with him and get in
the so that he could take pictures and yeah,
with Yeah, yeah, yes. Mm. I
know. They're coming at work and got me.
Yeah, I have You had be talking on the
phone and said, Oh, what was the two
way radio things? And it wasn't like his name
. And one night I got this call. Some
man had our two way radios here in Lynchburg and
he would get in touch with the Children and and
he's been called on the telephone and he was in
there and get ready to say something said over and
I will switch you over back. And when we
got it, gay acid. Okay, and she
said Yes, I said, What what is all
that? She said, Oh, Mom, fine
. I can't talk. We having a party with
the Harlem Globetrotters? I It was at night,
I mean, because I had time sometimes on and
it was I was in the bed when they called
at night, and I'm not for myself allowed that
she's all right, but she's still ready. I
think one of the reasons why my Children didn't fit
in with ST Paul Children was because they didn't know
any about it. My Children went to Amherst County
schools. Almost everybody else went to E. C
less and so the EC glass people, I guess
, kept to themselves and they just kind of I
didn't know my kids, so they just involved with
. But I have you. I was in one
of the best Sunday school classes, Miss Putnam,
Kyle Misnomer Davis. Your everybody remembers this, Mary
Davis and, uh, this Kyle got started going
to that class, and I ended up being almost
the second in command Davis talk. But when she
wasn't that, it always would ask me because I
think they thought I was smart. I wasn't as
smart as they thought, but I could read rather
face. But I enjoy that Bible class and I
went every Sunday and then I was confirmed it at
Saint Paul's. And so I became a full member
and, you know, for everything. But uh
huh, it was the older people who welcomed us
. And what's the older people? Eight o'clock service
that we went? It was everybody because it wasn't
very many people every day. Most of them were
the old because the younger people Children, they didn't
much. But it was the old, like the
Dolans and Crossed and Jean Jones. I still talk
to her everything and so and then it was We
had so nice with the com, very seldom missed
. I still very seldom missed the Mississippi. I'm
a member of ST John's, and, uh,
I'm interested that you all went to ST Paul.
Even Dr Wesley and his family came to ST John's
. Yeah, left And I'd like some honest opinions
about Oh, I can, but I'm not leaving
not being part of the conversation, but one with
big ears. You know, I've heard it being
discussed as far as the difference between ST Paul and
ST John, the the congregation. Lot more welcome
than that. Exactly. ST Paul's. I attended
ST Jones. A couple? Yes, and it
was like I wasn't there. Like maybe if we
don't say anything, she won't come back next Sunday
. And of course, I was single and young
and bring your single in you. You walk into
that situation, you probably won't go back and going
to ST Paul's. It was always that they I
know whether I have the same experience that you did
because I got married at ST Paul's. Young,
uh, my Children were raised at Saint Paul's young
, and they didn't have the same experiences that your
kids Yeah, but they attended the sea glass.
Will Giovanni attended, developed and across, but they
knew the other students that were there, so they
didn't have the same problem that your Children had being
an Amherst and then trying to go to associated with
the Pittsburgh City kids. Probably by the time your
kids came along and it truly integrated by that because
your daughter and my granddaughter went to school. It
was a different kind of big, big. I
went to ST Holes for years. Every son and
only the usher as I was leaving, leaving at
the end of the service says Thank you for visited
and that was it. And then one day I
was coming out of service and a lady came up
to me and you Do you sing out? So
and I said Yes, She said, You must
be the one my mother was talking about. I'm
the organ. Is that Grace Church? I need
an alto badly. Could you come join that?
Quite. And I said, Well, I might
as well. Nobody asked me that. I've been
thinking the same out in that church one year,
and if that lady could tell her daughter, why
didn't she tell her own organists or say something?
But anyway, so that's where I would, and
that's where I sat and felt very grace. Well
, one year old man, I think had a
really good experience at ST Paul's, a Fox tail
breaking box there. Uh, but Ricky is one
of these people who will have a good experience anybody
, because Ricky's are gonna get involved and he's going
to do things. And, uh, he and
Peggy and my youngest girl, where the only two
African Americans in that group of Peggy was a shy
kid. Ricky was an outgoing kid. The two
of them became friends, and he even asked about
her right now. Yeah, people used to think
they might marry would have been nice because she would
have more money to work with his head of the
Children's hospital. He was in Cleveland on how he
was a had surgery. Wow, that that you're
hospital. So Rickard was really outgoing, and even
her husband says that she should have married because she
had more money is being. But she went,
but she wasn't happy. But do you know she's
still in a principal church? And she took me
to an African American church in Raleigh, North Carolina
, where she attends a lot. Most of my
kids, either John Baptist churches after they left Lynchburg
. Oh, and the two that stayed here.
One of them has drawn the Baptist Church. But
Peg is still is involved in the Episcopal Church.
Why do you think they joined the Baptist Church?
Is why do you think they joined the Baptist churches
? I don't know. I think they just felt
more relaxed that friends went to the Baptist churches.
And for them, it was Are they predominantly African
American congregations? Predominantly. Totally. Totally. Alright
, for most of Yeah. Yeah. Do you
all know a name? A name of a woman
? Daisy Coals. Does that name ring a bell
? Daisy Coals? No, there's a story.
And, uh, Todd guy gave me a sermon
that one of the previous rectors had preached. And
he talked about a woman named Daisy Coals. Daisy
Cole's. Tell me what your teeny lady that used
to be in church. Teeny weeny little lady.
You think? I think that sounds right from a
lot of money thinking that was the one. The
story and the sermon is that the rector noticed a
small teeth black woman on Good Friday, I think
very, very fair. She was not happy with
the closing of the chapel. The good shepherd.
Do you remember title the name Cold. And that
was a lady. I was very, very fair
. You may have thought she was white. She
used to live in a house, An extra everybody
. She was dirt poor. Yeah, I remember
. We all just calling Misko. Yeah, I
remember. I remember her old when she was an
old lady. She lived to be old. I'm
saying, Oh, ST calls put in that new
organism everything. She gave a considerable amount of money
to the organ. I remember that part of and
I used to remember seeing her name is Daisy.
We miss Cole, And, uh, we never
knew her first name and she was at church all
the time. Every Sunday she gets kind of stage
, You know, I think she according to the
sermon, and I'll share it with you at some
point. She didn't come to church for a period
of time after Chapel of the Good Shepherd closed.
Really? So you don't remember her from the time
at the Church of the Good Shepherd? I can
remember this little lady coming in, but she'd always
come in and just come in, but she would
get out of there before anybody could say anything,
you know, we said, see him on the
top. Do you remember her then later at ST
Paul's. So you do? I said what I
went alongside. She was angry because we my kids
and I had Francis Gay. We always set up
almost front. The hand of his name was Marshall
Crisis. He was a lot. And we right
him and his wife and the most And then,
you know, that's where we would say, But
she would be sitting over and she'd get up once
there. When you come get up union and leave
him to see it right all night. And when
you get outside, you wouldn't wouldn't see her.
I never knew what mhm. I think she lived
right up next to Hutchison feeling that was a house
going up this street on the left, the you
see Hutchison Funeral home. Then it was Polk Street
and I think she lived in a house right next
. I never know, but anyway, I can't
remember. I can't remember saying but when they were
very friendly to us and saying I mean when when
we started going, they mm, mhm. I
think the trouble was before. The trouble was in
the years prior to it, and it was it
him. Lock Haven, Um, I'd love to
hear more about who you remember from him. Like
haven. Where do you remember staying in a cabin
with other teenagers? Uh, with, uh,
kids my age. One girl in particular, she
may have gone. I'm not sure that her and
her family went to Saint Paul was ST John's.
But Cathy Price, do you know? And then
anyway, she my brothers, my middle brother and
I were the first to to integrate Paramount Elementary School
. And I remember Kathy from third or fourth grade
from over there, and she was always friendly and
nice. So when I ran into her in the
church setting, it didn't surprised me that she was
, you know, she was exactly the same.
She went to him Lock haven. That same year
, the gay and I went and so he was
friendly. And but nobody else, Not even counselors
. Do you remember the counts, any of the
council's names or any of the people who were on
staff or any of the any of the clergy?
Do you remember Bishop Marmee and being there. I
remember mentioned, but I couldn't say any interaction with
And as far as what and what you were asking
about the difference between ST Paul and ST John.
Now, Reverend Spong was very well. The head
man himself was very well. I can never say
that he reached out to my mother and father.
Okay. Close friends, I think, as an
overall church. People at ST Paul, We're I
don't know why. What was? Because a lot
A lot of people who went to ST John lived
in the same areas of town that the people that
ST Paul, uh, lived in as well.
But there was always for some reason, and it
lasts. You know, it started off like that
, and it lasted. You know, I can
remember taking my mother to ST Paul, maybe 33
years before she passed, when she was still walking
. But she needed needed help, so she wanted
to take them in. You know, I get
up on one side and go around and then come
up the middle aisle. Well, that's what we
did. We went down the right side. You
have it and And now And it dawned on me
that everybody was was smelling, you know, everybody
was smiling her, even the babies was smile.
Yeah, and that's just the feel Always got.
Well, you all stayed at ST John's for a
while. I remember because I had moved to Richmond
, but I know that. And then Dad got
sick after that is part well, I remember from
ST John's view we used to We had a woman's
Yeah, that men in each other's homes. But
once word got out, the integration was gone to
be. They changed and only and I can't remember
it. I'm sure your mother must have felt I
didn't know that Change what it did. You what
? It was the woman's group. I don't you
know you have You had a W and they circles
circles there. They used to meet in each other's
home until they heard about integration. And then they
start meeting at the church. Well, I got
invited to a lot of people's homes. I went
into some fabulous room mansion, two different things from
ST Paul ST Paul's from the same problem I'm talking
about. Yeah, mhm. But things have changed
. I don't think so. New money is what
I was. That's the room of the war.
And I was coming at that time when he was
talking about changing churches. Saint John's with Consider the
rich folks parish. And that was new money.
Church and ST Paul's was the old money church because
it was more older people of rich players. Mhm
. Mhm. Mm. Yeah, Grace, we
were hard working. I'm Grace. Uh, and
I got a service. Race is like a neighborhood
church. It kind of reminds me of because it
sits right there on the corner. It's a pretty
little chapel, like churches not big and massive,
like ST Paul's or ST. Yeah, unlike,
unlike Well, I remember when true Dat and I
went to her funeral. She had just had her
100th birthday, and they did the chimes for 100
times. She reset that very quietly while they did
100 chance of the outside bail in her Hama.
And I thought that was really very, very nice
. My husband didn't give that long, but he
would have wanted that. Uh huh. We do
that at all. Yeah. And we do that
at all of the funerals. You do Wait a
number of years. For me, it was just
really I had never been to a few of anybody
who was 100. Been to a lot of reasons
, and I think I might have to go to
one of the later with 109. Her daughter was
my classmate and I talked to a couple of days
ago, and she said her mother was not doing
well. Miss Africa. Okay, mother, we're
actually about it. At 90 minutes it's almost 11
30. So I'll ask if there any final comments
that you might like to make about your experience at
now. Call it Church of the Good Shepherd,
since that's what you all called it, despite what
the official name might have been, or anything that
you'd like to add growing up at home in Richmond
, I was in church with all my teachers,
mhm, and you had to be on your best
behavior besides the fact that mother was up in the
quiet and then we had to sit on the opposite
side so she could see us. And if we
got that, I we knew we were in trouble
. I came here and started going to the In
addition, my principal, whom I thought or he
was a member of the church. So I said
it would be all about it Was that my principal
was Mr Duncan. I was an English teacher at
his school down in camp. Okay, Yeah.
Which school was this? Kim County High School.
I'd like to make a statement that people that Bishop
Mario and chose to come and do Good Shepherd Church
seemed to be the most likeable people that families and
everything. And, uh, even though I wasn't
a member of the church, I would go to
Father Teasers house and help her do things. And
when the preachers were all gonna be there for lunch
, I'd go and help her serve lunch. And
I would always welcome in their homes. And as
far as Dr Parrish was concerned, uh, you
know, I went to Lynchburg College, But even
before that, I taught his song, and so
, you know, I got to know them on
a personal basis, and I just thought he said
, Wonderful. Rector's two good champion church. I
don't know if he hand picked him or what,
but all of the I met there seemed to have
been likeable people. They were just They're putting on
the show, you know, trying to pretend that
they liked blacks. I think they were genuine.
That's what I at the same day seems to want
to be there on Sundays. And I don't think
that any of them felt got to go to this
black church face. It was always the one seemed
to want to be at the church on Sunday.
Now may not have been the case. Sometimes you
can go to a church if there's a priest there
was made to come to that church, too.
Do services for that church. You can almost tell
that they don't really want to be there listening to
the sermon that he's going to give that Sunday our
precinct to and not all of them were young.
I don't think they all were in there. Let's
say thirties back then or forties they were. Some
of them were older, and they seem to want
to be at that church to do the services,
and they seem to love the people people that they
were in charge, and I think that word love
says it all for them, you know, that
was genuine love that they only come out to.
We lived out on five or one like, and
we call it the country. Still, you call
it what you saw the other country. Uh,
that was that, Uh, but they were all
I mean, every one of them that were saying
they would come to mom home to my mom and
dad. Hm. They were always were sincere.
And they would just come just Well, we just
said, come and sit and talk to Are we
come to see what's going on? You know how
you, you know, you know, something like
but they were all very friendly. My mother loved
Peter. Wow. She thought he was, um
, the best thing. I mean, she loved
them all. And my dad catalog. My dad
loved all of us. And he said that when
now Teeter got arrested, he said I told him
nothing. Yeah, but say we can't along go
up. Said they showed us that they wanted to
be where they were and that they were really called
the job that they would mhm have it. Excuse
me. I believe all of this stems from the
fact that Bishop Marmon himself seemed to be a person
who loved people. It didn't matter what color.
And he showed this in the way handle things and
even took when, when he was integrating the churches
that never came out, he was getting rid of
all the small churches that they couldn't afford. He
never made us feel like, uh that this was
to, you know, to get us into the
white churches and made us feel like all the churches
little churches were being closed, so we weren't given
it a special preference. You know, we were
told to visit the churches. We were told this
church is going to close and all of the provisions
here must attend. Same false. You were asked
to visit all of the Episcopal churches and make your
own decision because they were saying valuables and that there
were churches, like an alabaster. Um, you
know, So we were told. Just go over
laws make. Oh, my. And I think
the people down there spread out to all of the
church elite for a while. Anybody else? Um
, from from the I had moved Can. Speaking
of regimen, I went to your home church for
Easter. Say, Bill? Were there people who
left something on Dr Jackson? Thank you. No
, They start. No, they tended. What's
the other church out? Trinity Trading. I think
they attended Trinity. It's for church. They didn't
They didn't they? You know, they came to
ST Dr Jackson came to ST Paul's, but then
left. They left, and they did not stay
and say it's closer to where they live. They
were doctor. No, she goes to church.
I don't think so. If she I don't think
she was sort sort of practising fiscal baby. Uh
, I remember she was on tv talking about him
. Okay, Yes. Uh, but I didn't
know whether. And remember a lot of this hammock
haven stuff. I'm trying to to, you know
, to remember that I don't Was there some confusion
about I just picked up? What? When I
picked up from being a child and just sense to
go, But I didn't know what you know.
When you were coming more or less when you were
coming along, it wasn't, but it wasn't for
the That's it. They closed the conference center for
two years rather than integrated, integrated right, And
it caused a great deal of discussion among the diocese
and the clergy and the bishop were in favour of
integration largely in the laity were largely against it.
Um, and we're at the end of this.
I'm telling you this instead of hearing your stories because
I've heard some of your reflections, and that's so
interesting. But Dr McGill, who was the priest
at ST John's, was part of the opposition to
the integration, which he was right before Dr Spong
. Okay, When did they close? It was
1959 through 61 I think Ish and then it opened
back up in 60 one or two. They purchased
it in 57 I don't think it ever It just
never got going on the date. I can give
you the dates more carefully, but it was a
cause of controversy at the diocesan councils at council.
Uh, it was a big discussion at council,
and it was in the news. It was on
W S. C. T. R. Wsls
had two reports one in May of 64 I think
, and one in September. Talking about the controversy
in the Episcopal Church over this integration of the conference
center. Mhm. But you were unaware. I
just knew that something was culture. Yeah, it
wasn't right. It didn't have a good feeling.
And I thank them all this kind of picked.
Yeah. Thank. And I had the feeling that
I wasn't going there because I really wanted, you
know, I was born there for a reason.
You were convinced by church member. Is that right
? You said you were kids nowadays, they don't
want to go. And when Gloria and my kids
will come if whatever her mother told her Mhm.
Yeah. Oh, my kids, they we lived
at home with my mother. And then So that's
why they call the mother, mother and dad and
whatever they got together best in my dad Have a
day. And so you're gonna be with Gloria,
you know? So there are these two little girls
the world together. Do you think that someone asked
your parents to convince your daughter to go or did
? Do you recall any that you said you felt
like they were picked? I know I'm not.
I am Asset. Well, right, but do
you have a memory of somebody saying really be important
for gay to go to this, Uh, good
. And he was the director of the camp.
He was a member. Uh, Mr Farrell Frost
. Yes. And Marshall Frost, cause he knew
that we were there and he told me and he
told my dad, Um, yes, if he
needs to. So and I don't know what I
know that they didn't go that well, that it
would be a good thing before good for justice.
And you need to go. So this must have
been when it reopened. Yes, Well, it
closed you. It never really opened because they bought
it. And then before they opened it, there
was a controversy, and then it closed. Bishop
Marmon was consecrated as the bishop of the diocese within
a week of the Brown versus Board of Education decision
in 1954. So he came into this diocese with
integration very much on his conscience, and he studied
it. Uh, and he was a very deliberate
, careful, loving man, uh, and studied
it carefully and decided that it was a gospel mandate
. Right? He let you kiss him on the
cheek, he would kiss you. Mhm. Well
, I don't know what happened to candidates from other
predominantly African American churches. But I know whenever they
had to be conventions, the guys from ST Paul's
always stated his. That's my husband. Loved that
. That's wonderful. Are you aware of any of
the other African American churches? There was ST Phillips
in Bedford. I didn't know about any of ST
Lukes in Roanoke. ST. Paul's in Martinsville.
ST. Paul still exists. Oh, I've been
to ST Paul's in Marginal. My daughter joined that
when she first moved to Martin Field. And I've
been to that church alive, and they are still
predominantly black. A word last time I was there
. I don't know that they have any white member
. They do have some white members. Did you
? Yes. Did you have any white members of
the Church of the Good Shepherd? Do you have
people? Directors always had what there was. Yeah
, that. Do you recall any other visitors from
ST Paul's or from any of the other churches?
The only time I recall any visitors coming was like
when we didn't have mm black man and that someone
some mad with Eric the service a bigger what happen
? Fair. Whenever we didn't have any. And
sometimes their wife would come, but most of the
times they would come back. Yeah, one of
the guys. That good chef loved the church,
and he was one who stayed in. Bishop Robbins
has my husband ended up becoming an Episcopal priest?
Policy. It is white American, African American.
Yeah. You don't remember him? His wife went
to school with me. Duke, Maybe Duke.
Duke Harris to Duke. Harrison became He was a
member of the, uh, church and a good
shop. And he was one of those who went
with my husband to a lot of the meetings,
and and they both all all of them went,
stated Bishop Marmion's house, and he became an Episcopal
priest. After that, he was a teacher.
And I think he's the reason that I attended ST
Paul's college because he ended up being a priest in
Southern Virginia. Yes. Okay. And he he
married some What do you know the person he married
? I can't recall that story that I'll come up
with it. Um, that's what do they call
a senior moment? All right, um, so
I've kept you too long, and I apologize,
but I may have followed questions. Uh, we
may want to do this again. Um, you
all have been lovely. Just perfect. And thank
you so much for your stories. I really appreciate
it. Um, any final comments before I stopped
the video and you look great. You look fabulous
. Yes. You look fabulous. Well, did
you want to follow up with any of them? 1115 01:15:06.640 --> A:middle L:90% Ah.