WEBVTT

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things that you had. Uh, my name is

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Gloria Kennedy. Um, when I attended Good Shepherd

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Episcopal Church, I was Gloria and Wesley. Uh

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huh. That's that's great. Thank you. I'm

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Helen Monday with I was not a member. Good

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check. Mhm. But my husband decided to join

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it and all. He and all five of the

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kids were baptized together The same that and so I

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had to go that church because I have to take

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your kids every Sunday. And I worked with them

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quite a bit in the church. But I didn't

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join the Episcopal Church until we moved later. I'll

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ask you about years to if you any time.

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Do you know what year the baptisms took place?

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Yeah, it was 1960 close and, I don't

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know, exactly half closed. But I know at

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that time, all of my Children and my youngest

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was probably two or three years old. All of

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them were baptized as my so it had to be

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. She was born in 1957. She was about

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three years, So we'll be about 1960. Okay

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. Thank you. My name is Gloria Cardwell.

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When I came to Lynchburg in 1963 hours, Gloria

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. Like most, I attended Grace. I'm sorry

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I attended Good Shepherd up until it closed. What

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years do you recall? I'm not sure. It

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was. I might have been there a couple of

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years before. Close. Okay. Thank you.

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My name is the lowest down from hate. And

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which one? Uh huh. Really remember. But

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here, with so glorious father was really instrumental in

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giving us to go to start coming through. Yeah

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, Mother. My two brothers and all through my

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Children jump. My father did not join, but

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he was instrumental in working and doing doing whatever needed

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. We have to be done. Thank you.

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My name is Patricia Parrish. Dad meet. And

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when I attended the Church of the Good Shepherd,

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I was Patricia Parrish was the only member of my

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family who attended the festival church. All the others

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were Baptists. And, of course, we lived

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in Diamond Hill. And they all attended manager.

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And I'll ask you in a moment, why you

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chose to 10 Good shepherd and everyone else was at

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the Baptist Church and also with us is an vanda

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graft. And we are at the home of Hans

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and and Van de Graaff in Lynchburg, Virginia.

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Today is April 24th, 19, 2015. So

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if I can just ask a little bit about your

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history with good shepherd and we'll get to the integration

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at some point. And did you have a comment

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? Um, if you want to just tell me

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I'm interested in telling your having You tell your story

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. And I, um we'll let you all talk

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among yourselves as well. So whatever feels comfortable.

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And however you want to start, there's no rule

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at this point. Well, I love um,

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Yeah, I was born into this. I don't

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remember the dates. Mhm. My started going there

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too low. But I have pictures showing that I

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was Christmas. And I think this if you're comfortable

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, I would love for you all to share years

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as well as you recall them. 53 1930.

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So I was christened. Probably in there? Yes

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, Uh, very small. From what? The

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pictures. Oh, when the sun is going on

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, um, from son of school age on the

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I'm sure there were other ministers, but the only

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minister really remember and new closely was Reverend John Teeter

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. His family mhm. I believe he was there

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. Maybe start sudden. Mhm. Oh, mhm

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. 1963 solid 10. Mhm made a big me

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was also confirmed. And which number the day?

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Probably it was before Reverend here left. Yeah,

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he confirmed. So I was Yeah. Thank you

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. When I came, Came from Rich and Mm

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safe church where I was born and raised and confirmed

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Christian. And there were a couple of supply priests

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Good shepherd when I came. And one, Bill

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Parrish and I thank you. Mm. This was

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in the 70 or no late sixties, I guess

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. Do you remember the year you moved? I

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came here in 63 that's the year I started because

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I live right down the street would have a good

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time right here at my doorstep. And then they

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closed. So I'm not sure the year but think

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couple of years. Yeah, Mhm. Close the

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doors. You know you can take There were it

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was a small congregation and I wasn't surprised when it

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was closed because it was so small. And that

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was what I thought at first was the reason for

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it being then? Yes, that trying to right

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Who told you that you called? Yeah. No

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, I heard it later from again from my current

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Kathryn Montgomery. Mhm. What we were doing.

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Thank you. Around all of all the spaces or

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places where the church and in this word excuse me

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one of the things she stated and talking about.

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And that was recently. You did the history?

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Yes, in the past, maybe five other stories

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about your early times at good Shepherd. We started

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because they snake. And so Dr West? Yes

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, he had been. And then we started going

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my mother's side, him there. And Bobby,

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I didn't like going to It's true else. When

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he had was small, they had communion. And

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, of course, when they served communion, you

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know, they passed the bread. Wow. And

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he got real discussed. He couldn't have Kool Aid

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and sandwiches when they had, um, Communion.

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And he really could. We tried to make him

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understand, but he couldn't. He would. So

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, you know, he just said he wasn't going

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back anymore. So Dr Wesley Long and I was

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used to go into the Catholic Church building the summers

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in Baltimore, and I really didn't like it.

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And my brother went to say, um Saint illness

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and rich private kept. So we're there. Bring

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us to the Catholic Church. Wanted, you know

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, for the service. Like and Dr Wesley told

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my mom Don't have to go. Can like a

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puzzle. It's almost The services are basically the same

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. Almost. Finally, come and go with us

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. So we did we start? Yeah, right

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. And my mother Uh huh. Name was Francis

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. She was first and then was confirmed. And

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later Oh, and my youngest brother, Of course

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. He was confirmed along with my mother. Yeah

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. Then I guess around the time around the time

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cool over here was confirmed. Bachelor. Yeah.

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Think that. And now everyone white dresses. And

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then my old has been my my He found he

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John and his fiance John. Also because they were

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married. Name was Teacher Johnson. And her name

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was Anyway. They are. Yeah. Lot of

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Baptists young. The Sunday school through church is a

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very long time. Mm. Leave blank. About

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13. 13. Just started attending church all day

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on Sunday was something that I just didn't want to

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do. Man, I had heard that church on

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y street that you were in and out. So

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I decided that since that was in walking distance where

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I live done 15th Street, that I could just

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walk to that church and be a part of that

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sort be home. Therefore, most friends just out

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of Sunday school at Diamond Hill. That is how

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I got started attending the church. I did not

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get confirmed December 1960. So of course I was

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18 left and went to college. And when I

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came back time, I came back closing the church

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. And like Mrs Wet, I did not you

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see as closing because of integration, I was sort

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of told that the congregation had gotten so very small

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. Most of the parishes try going to be closed

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regardless. So I then decided to visit a couple

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of churches. Oh, sublets ST Paul's because they

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were so very friendly there and decided to attend the

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eight o'clock service. Since I was probably the only

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African American actually there at eight o'clock, so I've

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decided to stay there at eight o'clock. Get out

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out about 8. 45 when you're young, you

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don't really want to stay at church all the time

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, so that is really how I got started and

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your testicle church. Just a time thing for me

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. Love the church of the good ship. The

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only person from my family there. So they adopted

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me as one of theirs. Every family in that

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church was a friend. I was told their child

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. I love the wits and have been with the

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wits now for ever since then we all changed to

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say points. There were the Owens back stones.

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Remember the just mostly Mosul monetary, monetary Dr Jackson

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. Dr Bracelet. Just Everybody was sort of family

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in the church. It was just a family church

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. There were a few people that came in up

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on wise, a couple of teenagers that came in

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period cattle. But it was to me. It

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was just a wonderful small family church course. Father

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Teeter, as I called him, did do my

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confirmation December 1960. Thank you. My father Tito

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was very active. And civil Rights. Mm hmm

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. I think he was hauled off to jail.

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Yeah, he was arrested one time. I think

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it was set in that the students, the students

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sit in it. Yes, and all of that

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is included on that. But Also, I think

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he wasn't. He thrown off the steps of Jones

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Memorial Library because life went mhm. People were trying

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library, and he was with them. So what

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? It didn't affect your services That we have a

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good very They It was. He was good.

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Everybody loved everybody. Hey, did you know when

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when he left? It was a bad time.

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Um, we could have tied him and Kevin here

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. I think we would. He was just He

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was just band to earth, and he just he

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just We were all just everybody was this my man

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? My father was not a member of that.

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He along, he was. I guess you could

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sit and adopt trustee or whatever it was because whatever

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had to be done. Finance? Yeah, Anything

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. He was always right in sync with Dr Wesley

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and Mr Moultrie and another gentleman named Charlie. Uh

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, well, they were their their dad. It

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was a Baptist, and so was Charlie. But

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everyone as much as they attended, and as much

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as they did there, and people thought that they

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would do all members of the good shepherd, which

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, in a way of speaking there they were.

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You know they because they they would come with us

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to church. And then when when service was over

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, Right had said you could go. You could

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get back in town. It's in the Baptist.

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The kids were sitting there. Are you going with

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us? Yeah, I'm going. You got to

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go back with a lot of church. But,

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you know, we went, we went early,

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and then they were able to get home and go

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with him to Sunday school and then go to I'm

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not the spirit. I mean, church would mhm

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let me get back to Helen. We jumped around

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a little bit, and, uh, that's fine

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, because I am the only non member of Good

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Children Church. But my husband grew up in Pocahontas

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, Virginia, in the coal mining area. His

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mother belonged to Baptist Church, and they were raised

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in the Baptist Church, but he didn't like the

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Baptist Church because they beg money too much. He

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hated the idea of begging money. He said the

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members should support their own church. So when we

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moved about four doors up the street from good Champion

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Church, right across from the mellows, um,

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he his sister had met someone in Bush here.

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I don't know if she had a job or is

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that a way of I don't, But I don't

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think she did. I think she just attended.

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Yes, but my husband found out about it and

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he decided that he'd go down and check it out

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. And so he fell in love with. We

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had five Children, five Children. And so he

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started going. And then, of course, I

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had to go and take the five Children and stretch

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them from the role of the church. So everybody

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knew me and thought that I was also remember.

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But at first he was just going and I was

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going with him. But then he decided to be

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baptized and all five Children along with him. So

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they had quite a big baptism. That and,

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uh, I still did not join because I belong

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to my family church. And I also went to

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Diamond Hill Church a lot because my daddy was a

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custodian of Dominica Church and we cleaned it helped him

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clean. We knew every interdenominational church, so I

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had no desire at the time to change churches.

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But I always would stand there. It good shepherd

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because my whole family was. And then after we

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moved to, he moved to Good Shepherd. When

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the church was closed. I do pretty much everything

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that he knew that was going on in good shape

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. And he was very unhappy that they wanted to

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close. And we were never told that they were

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close it to integrate. Uh, we were told

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that all small churches in the diocese were being closed

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because they did not have the proper amount of of

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rectors to place everywhere. And they also we're not

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getting enough finance from the little church is to be

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able to for the diocese to hire new people.

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And that's what we were told. Okay, so

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I had no voice in that. But my husband

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, you know, said what must be most people

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. He wasn't happy about it, But good shepherd

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church was a real friendly church. Her dad,

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you were talking about her day, and Dr Wesley

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was my family doctor. And I loved him,

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dear. He would take me on Sunday mornings when

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I had my, uh, silence attacks and he

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would blow spray my head up so that I could

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breathe. I've been going crying and come out black

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. And so I knew practically everybody there. Miss

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Motor had been one of my teachers when I was

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in elementary school and I knew Mrs Johnson, who

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lives like their pace, was not okay. She

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you did, She lived. She was an abbot

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member, all of the church, and one of

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my best friends, Natalie Jackson, uh was a

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real sweetheart. I loved her dearly. So I

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loved everybody. And I didn't mind participating at Good

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Shepherd Church, even though it took me a while

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to learn the difference in what goes on there and

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what went on in the Baptist Church. But,

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uh, when they moved the church, are you

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ready to get into? I'm ready. Yes.

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When they decided to close the church, they Bishop

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Mari, in whom I love dearly. And his

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wife and my husband spent lots of nights and Bishop

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Marion's house in Rano because when they had the conventions

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and everything and they went as delegates, Hotaru no

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would not allow them to stay there and Bishop Mama

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opened his house and had them come and stay at

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his house. And I thought that was truly a

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step forward, although integration was not a problem for

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me because my father is white and my mother is

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African American and they married. Even though the law

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says they couldn't enter America, they married and they

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had two girls. But anyway, so I'm sure

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your parents names Joseph Hamlet Monday, and any allows

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hers. Atkins Monday. Thank you. And they

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married. In what year? What year did they

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marry? But here did they marry? I never

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knew the exact year that they married, but my

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00:21:53.769 --> 00:21:57.140 A:middle L:90%
sister was born. They had been married a couple

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of years before. My sister was born in 1930

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I was born in 1932. Thank you. So

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integration was not upsetting for me because my dad Carlos

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, my sister me everywhere he went and we said

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in white barbershops while he got a haircut, we

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went everywhere. We went to Miller Park, even

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though other African Americans could not go to Miller Park

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anywhere that my daddy could go. My sister and

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I so we were used to being involved. So

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00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:40.589 A:middle L:90%
that was a problem for me and Bishop. Mommy

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in had grabbing Robert Smith, who was an interim

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paster and, uh, uh, Saint Paul's come

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to all of our houses. Well, I know

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that he came to l. A and we knew

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that the ministers of the big churches were told by

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Bishop Mommy in that they had to visit the member

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people's houses and invite them to people who are closest

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to that church. And they were closer to grace

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. Uh, but they ended up they visited.

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My parents, visited all of the churches. They

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were closest to grace, but they decided to go

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to ST Paul and ST John's. They weren't ST

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John's for for a little while, but I think

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my mother preferred ST Paul for whatever whatever reasons.

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And she went there from the time joining right out

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. Yeah, right after the shepherd closed till till

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she died. Mhm. Well, for my mother

339
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and I have all old lost$2. My oldest

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00:24:00.769 --> 00:24:04.930 A:middle L:90%
one day in a car accident with my mom and

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00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:10.140 A:middle L:90%
, of course, was awesome. A lot of

342
00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:11.869 A:middle L:90%
films, so, you know, we had service

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at. And also when Mrs Francine a pan passed

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, she was a member of good. Yes,

345
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.759 A:middle L:90%
she And by teaching school and and the Canada and

346
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:30.819 A:middle L:90%
thanks in this city I'm not. Her husband was

347
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.119 A:middle L:90%
. The coach is done by time. So everybody

348
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.049 A:middle L:90%
knew them. So they had her service and thank

349
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I want to. And this was before Really think

350
00:24:42.339 --> 00:24:53.269 A:middle L:90%
what year? Roughly. Now for them. Probably

351
00:24:53.279 --> 00:25:00.440 A:middle L:90%
63. 60. So 62. So chapel of

352
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.490 A:middle L:90%
the Good Shepherd was still open, But the funeral

353
00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:07.650 A:middle L:90%
was at ST Paul's because it was so large out

354
00:25:07.660 --> 00:25:11.720 A:middle L:90%
there and they could look at they went closed wire

355
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:18.269 A:middle L:90%
street out front, the Vatican again. And mhm

356
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:23.880 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, they we were close. Like I

357
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:29.359 A:middle L:90%
said, Alias. And Mm. When my kids

358
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:37.809 A:middle L:90%
firm dot them is what? No. And do

359
00:25:37.809 --> 00:25:41.160 A:middle L:90%
you recall that the population had declined around the time

360
00:25:41.170 --> 00:25:44.480 A:middle L:90%
that it was closed? If that was the reason

361
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:45.799 A:middle L:90%
, did it make sense to you? No,

362
00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:48.650 A:middle L:90%
it isn't. Excuse me. It didn't make sense

363
00:25:48.650 --> 00:25:52.410 A:middle L:90%
to me. It didn't. You know, I

364
00:25:52.410 --> 00:25:56.000 A:middle L:90%
understand. Yeah. My husband wasn't real happy.

365
00:25:56.009 --> 00:26:00.220 A:middle L:90%
I don't understand what the members of the older men

366
00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:03.539 A:middle L:90%
really close with either, but they were like I

367
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said, we were told that we weren't able to

368
00:26:07.609 --> 00:26:11.839 A:middle L:90%
circle white cells. We could not, um,

369
00:26:11.849 --> 00:26:15.460 A:middle L:90%
support ourselves and that since they you know what?

370
00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:21.369 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, you know they not only after we were

371
00:26:21.369 --> 00:26:25.319 A:middle L:90%
told they were going to close all small churches that

372
00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:29.690 A:middle L:90%
were not self sufficient and could not support they closed

373
00:26:29.700 --> 00:26:30.960 A:middle L:90%
one right out of Madison Heights. I knew some

374
00:26:30.970 --> 00:26:34.049 A:middle L:90%
people who went to that church and they got closed

375
00:26:34.059 --> 00:26:38.720 A:middle L:90%
and I was told, or I understood that Bishop

376
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.710 A:middle L:90%
Mommy was closing all small churches. It was never

377
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:48.160 A:middle L:90%
mentioned to us that the idea for closing was integrated

378
00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:52.509 A:middle L:90%
. Second, if a larger church was closed by

379
00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:57.559 A:middle L:90%
the places like, I guess Allah vista and synching

380
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.759 A:middle L:90%
up in animals. And you know where it wasn't

381
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.509 A:middle L:90%
one real, real close. I mean, that

382
00:27:03.509 --> 00:27:08.519 A:middle L:90%
was my understanding that all about Father Did any of

383
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:15.690 A:middle L:90%
your Children go to hemlock Haven to the so camp

384
00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:18.460 A:middle L:90%
? The Episcopal Diocese. You went there and then

385
00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:25.670 A:middle L:90%
, um, was there a remembrance ever been or

386
00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:27.609 A:middle L:90%
I can't say his name, but he was after

387
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:34.849 A:middle L:90%
Peter and way those This other minister got my mom

388
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:41.250 A:middle L:90%
follow involved sending me their micro wasn't McRae works.

389
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.640 A:middle L:90%
I know he was a minister. Two. That's

390
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.359 A:middle L:90%
when you all say that my areas I didn't know

391
00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:53.170 A:middle L:90%
him one with when we first started going and we

392
00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:59.039 A:middle L:90%
had a black priest. Father. When? When

393
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.190 A:middle L:90%
I first when I first started. Which was what

394
00:28:02.190 --> 00:28:07.670 A:middle L:90%
year do you call It? Had to be in

395
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:18.170 A:middle L:90%
France. Mhm. Wow. So it had mhm

396
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.960 A:middle L:90%
first stop. Have to be to expect this.

397
00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:26.630 A:middle L:90%
Like I was thinking the same thing, but I

398
00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:30.450 A:middle L:90%
didn't know I couldn't his name, but he didn't

399
00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:33.700 A:middle L:90%
, wasn't there? Every Sunday, it was like

400
00:28:33.710 --> 00:28:37.029 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we had a priest, maybe

401
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.289 A:middle L:90%
12 Sundays a month back in that day, and

402
00:28:41.289 --> 00:28:44.099 A:middle L:90%
we really did. I did not know what his

403
00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:47.509 A:middle L:90%
name was because I was young then just attending the

404
00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:49.119 A:middle L:90%
church. You were in and out anyway. But

405
00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:52.289 A:middle L:90%
that was an African American. And then we would

406
00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:55.269 A:middle L:90%
have they would send a vegan from ST Paul.

407
00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:59.539 A:middle L:90%
This lawyer was named Ernest Frost. He would come

408
00:28:59.829 --> 00:29:03.759 A:middle L:90%
. And do you know deacons do that part of

409
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:10.289 A:middle L:90%
the service? Yeah. What was Reverend build a

410
00:29:10.299 --> 00:29:14.220 A:middle L:90%
parish? Yes. Uh huh. Mhm. He

411
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:17.789 A:middle L:90%
wasn't there all the time, either. And remember

412
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:25.170 A:middle L:90%
Culbertson? Yeah, Yeah, I forgot Robin Paris

413
00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:29.509 A:middle L:90%
or one of the ministers had three churches. They

414
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:34.039 A:middle L:90%
went to Paris because we had a choice of.

415
00:29:34.049 --> 00:29:37.049 A:middle L:90%
He told us we had a meeting and we had

416
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.900 A:middle L:90%
myself. He is ready. One service, nine

417
00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.069 A:middle L:90%
o'clock on Sunday morning. Then he would go somewhere

418
00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:48.150 A:middle L:90%
else. A feat of the animals or elephants at

419
00:29:48.150 --> 00:29:52.269 A:middle L:90%
11 and then one at three. But since we

420
00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:56.920 A:middle L:90%
gave us that first, so we picked nine o'clock

421
00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.700 A:middle L:90%
. That's how everybody that side as we go to

422
00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:03.359 A:middle L:90%
church at nine o'clock have services nine. And then

423
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.809 A:middle L:90%
Sunday school after service. And then he would go

424
00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:11.970 A:middle L:90%
to Amazon and ST Lukes peddler Mills. And then

425
00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:15.380 A:middle L:90%
he would go to Blockbuster. Would be on Sunday

426
00:30:15.380 --> 00:30:19.210 A:middle L:90%
afternoon, set out to visit to Chatham. Do

427
00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:22.559 A:middle L:90%
you recall it was out of this stuff. It

428
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.819 A:middle L:90%
might have been in between. I'm not sure,

429
00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:27.359 A:middle L:90%
but I think it was out of us went through

430
00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:32.319 A:middle L:90%
for the last there it was at that time they

431
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.519 A:middle L:90%
had the church in maths and heights right down in

432
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:38.059 A:middle L:90%
the lower end near the road. Uh, and

433
00:30:38.069 --> 00:30:42.109 A:middle L:90%
he may have gone to that because Amazon had kept

434
00:30:42.109 --> 00:30:44.990 A:middle L:90%
that church open. Faith? Well, it might

435
00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:45.930 A:middle L:90%
have been it might have been down there, but

436
00:30:45.930 --> 00:30:48.619 A:middle L:90%
I know it was over. Now it's kind of

437
00:30:48.619 --> 00:30:49.519 A:middle L:90%
some I'm not gonna say exactly, but anyway,

438
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.319 A:middle L:90%
I know he had We had we took the nine

439
00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:55.460 A:middle L:90%
, and then when they told us that we had

440
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.369 A:middle L:90%
, you know, they were going to close.

441
00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:04.930 A:middle L:90%
And do you remember who told you the media was

442
00:31:04.930 --> 00:31:10.789 A:middle L:90%
the bishop there? Or was it Father Parish?

443
00:31:10.789 --> 00:31:14.150 A:middle L:90%
Maybe, Or you don't remember? I don't remember

444
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.680 A:middle L:90%
. But they called you all together and announced that

445
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.069 A:middle L:90%
it was going to be closed. Made an announcement

446
00:31:18.069 --> 00:31:25.289 A:middle L:90%
that we would have a meeting. I'm not sure

447
00:31:25.299 --> 00:31:27.529 A:middle L:90%
when pointing, but I remember we had this leading

448
00:31:27.529 --> 00:31:33.380 A:middle L:90%
and mostly everybody so and I really came from told

449
00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:37.539 A:middle L:90%
us. But I know we were told, but

450
00:31:37.549 --> 00:31:41.660 A:middle L:90%
they will be closing us. And the reason not

451
00:31:41.660 --> 00:31:48.349 A:middle L:90%
able female. When Robin Smith came, well,

452
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.329 A:middle L:90%
I guess before he came to our house, he

453
00:31:51.329 --> 00:31:53.970 A:middle L:90%
called and said he asked, could he come?

454
00:31:53.970 --> 00:31:56.650 A:middle L:90%
And when and so forth. And when he came

455
00:31:56.650 --> 00:32:00.049 A:middle L:90%
to our house and even before he came, he

456
00:32:00.049 --> 00:32:06.000 A:middle L:90%
explained that the churches were being closed and that Bishop

457
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:10.049 A:middle L:90%
Mama was closing all small churches because of the two

458
00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:15.250 A:middle L:90%
reasons. Instead, we were self sufficient. I

459
00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:19.950 A:middle L:90%
said we, but the church was not self sufficient

460
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:25.089 A:middle L:90%
, and, uh, they didn't have the reptiles

461
00:32:25.099 --> 00:32:30.319 A:middle L:90%
to place it. Not once Did we ever hear

462
00:32:30.329 --> 00:32:35.480 A:middle L:90%
anything about integration that surprised? Were you aware of

463
00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:39.559 A:middle L:90%
the struggles in the diocese over the issue of immigration

464
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:44.109 A:middle L:90%
, particularly around him? Lock haven. I was

465
00:32:44.109 --> 00:32:46.839 A:middle L:90%
aware of the fact that there were many people at

466
00:32:46.849 --> 00:32:50.259 A:middle L:90%
all the churches that didn't want us to come,

467
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:52.539 A:middle L:90%
and we used to have to go to meetings and

468
00:32:52.549 --> 00:32:54.970 A:middle L:90%
so forth, and one of the guys at ST

469
00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:59.660 A:middle L:90%
Paul's was in the state Senate or something, and

470
00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:02.190 A:middle L:90%
he made it perfectly clear that he had particularly,

471
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:06.200 A:middle L:90%
like, sit next to black people in meetings and

472
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:07.869 A:middle L:90%
things, so we knew that they weren't gonna be

473
00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:12.970 A:middle L:90%
happy about it. But my husband had hoped that

474
00:33:12.970 --> 00:33:16.019 A:middle L:90%
since we had a family of Children that the people

475
00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:20.839 A:middle L:90%
with Children, our ages, would be receptive to

476
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:22.960 A:middle L:90%
us. But we were told to visit first.

477
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:28.450 A:middle L:90%
We got that, and it was the older people

478
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.410 A:middle L:90%
. I guess Miss Putnam Cow was probably close to

479
00:33:32.410 --> 00:33:37.900 A:middle L:90%
70 at that time, and people her age welcomed

480
00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:42.220 A:middle L:90%
us in the people who had Children. My Children's

481
00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:47.230 A:middle L:90%
ages did not make any efforts. Two, You

482
00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:52.519 A:middle L:90%
know, say we're glad you here we do does

483
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.160 A:middle L:90%
, and some of the Children, if you want

484
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:58.410 A:middle L:90%
your Children to attend. And as my kids got

485
00:33:58.420 --> 00:34:02.359 A:middle L:90%
older, um, they joined the youth group,

486
00:34:02.369 --> 00:34:07.200 A:middle L:90%
and whenever they were planning something, it was Well

487
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:08.579 A:middle L:90%
, we're going skiing Sunday. What are you people

488
00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:13.590 A:middle L:90%
going to do? And you want to tell her

489
00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:15.960 A:middle L:90%
about the you people? Paula didn't game. Was

490
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:20.079 A:middle L:90%
that one of the meetings? And they ask what

491
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.969 A:middle L:90%
? What you people don't do, Engage them.

492
00:34:22.539 --> 00:34:24.039 A:middle L:90%
Well, we people are going to do the same

493
00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:29.019 A:middle L:90%
thing I wish. I wish my kids had been

494
00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:31.989 A:middle L:90%
smart enough to say you can go to heaven.

495
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.800 A:middle L:90%
She went to him, not even one year.

496
00:34:35.809 --> 00:34:37.670 A:middle L:90%
I think we were living at the same time.

497
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:43.550 A:middle L:90%
And gay also went to quit with hotel area.

498
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:51.750 A:middle L:90%
And when they heard that accident, then there she

499
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:54.559 A:middle L:90%
she was. Then I would say she injects Formerly

500
00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:00.309 A:middle L:90%
the group. Yeah, I think Charlotte Fischer went

501
00:35:00.309 --> 00:35:06.989 A:middle L:90%
on that trip recently email from, uh, from

502
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.659 A:middle L:90%
Bishop. Because we've been communicating, especially since my

503
00:35:10.659 --> 00:35:14.860 A:middle L:90%
mother was real set over the years, you know

504
00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:17.130 A:middle L:90%
, he was in Richmond, um, at ST

505
00:35:17.130 --> 00:35:22.130 A:middle L:90%
policy, physical and rich Eastern. And so I

506
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:27.880 A:middle L:90%
emailed him and he emailed me back. I always

507
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.239 A:middle L:90%
love him. Mhm. Really nice. Yeah,

508
00:35:30.739 --> 00:35:34.750 A:middle L:90%
well, despite the fact that my Children did not

509
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.289 A:middle L:90%
enjoy being part of the youth group. But they

510
00:35:37.300 --> 00:35:38.690 A:middle L:90%
knew to please that daddy, you know, they

511
00:35:38.690 --> 00:35:43.949 A:middle L:90%
would go ahead and a 10. All five of

512
00:35:43.949 --> 00:35:49.630 A:middle L:90%
them were confirmed at Saint Paul's Church and all four

513
00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:52.820 A:middle L:90%
of my daughters got married at ST Paul's Church.

514
00:35:52.829 --> 00:35:57.170 A:middle L:90%
But then after that, other than going for certain

515
00:35:57.179 --> 00:36:00.539 A:middle L:90%
activities, they have no real desire because they didn't

516
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:04.679 A:middle L:90%
get to know the youth and everything because that it

517
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.789 A:middle L:90%
was you people. And we are going to do

518
00:36:07.789 --> 00:36:08.619 A:middle L:90%
such and such a thing. What are you people

519
00:36:08.619 --> 00:36:13.530 A:middle L:90%
going to do? And with having five kids,

520
00:36:13.539 --> 00:36:15.630 A:middle L:90%
you don't have money to send your kids on a

521
00:36:15.630 --> 00:36:19.409 A:middle L:90%
skin, Trevor often. I mean, you know

522
00:36:19.420 --> 00:36:22.760 A:middle L:90%
, we would have probably found the money somewhere if

523
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:28.860 A:middle L:90%
they had said they wanted, but they didn't like

524
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:32.329 A:middle L:90%
the idea of being you people. And we're gonna

525
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:35.050 A:middle L:90%
do this. And so, But you're going to

526
00:36:35.059 --> 00:36:37.099 A:middle L:90%
be kind of left Agra dollars. If if you

527
00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:39.659 A:middle L:90%
go, you still would be left out. No

528
00:36:40.030 --> 00:36:43.170 A:middle L:90%
. Um, did any of your Children go to

529
00:36:43.170 --> 00:36:45.989 A:middle L:90%
him? Lock? Haven I never I never even

530
00:36:45.989 --> 00:36:51.159 A:middle L:90%
knew about I don't know what the You know her

531
00:36:51.730 --> 00:36:52.539 A:middle L:90%
. I know the gay and I went together,

532
00:36:52.539 --> 00:36:58.260 A:middle L:90%
and I knew that it was of importance that we

533
00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:04.750 A:middle L:90%
go, but I didn't realize exactly why. Um

534
00:37:05.429 --> 00:37:07.840 A:middle L:90%
, and and the feelings that we got being the

535
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:10.880 A:middle L:90%
old we were the only two black kids there that

536
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.159 A:middle L:90%
summer. Do you remember which summer it was?

537
00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:20.929 A:middle L:90%
It's okay. I really don't. I probably to

538
00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:27.139 A:middle L:90%
find out number right now, but it was It

539
00:37:27.139 --> 00:37:30.409 A:middle L:90%
was different, you know? And it wasn't welcoming

540
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:34.869 A:middle L:90%
, you know, I didn't have a welcoming feeling

541
00:37:34.869 --> 00:37:37.349 A:middle L:90%
, nothing gay. And I'm just kind of around

542
00:37:37.349 --> 00:37:40.409 A:middle L:90%
here, girl. Okay. Said I don't care

543
00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:43.619 A:middle L:90%
what you're saying. What? I'm not going back

544
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:45.809 A:middle L:90%
at all. I mean, you know that it

545
00:37:45.809 --> 00:37:51.539 A:middle L:90%
was that Francis she she didn't want to go.

546
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:53.400 A:middle L:90%
And Francis wasn't as I ain't going as gay.

547
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:59.139 A:middle L:90%
I'm so I knew was never needed me insisting that

548
00:37:59.139 --> 00:38:02.380 A:middle L:90%
she but my dad could tell gay and then in

549
00:38:02.380 --> 00:38:07.170 A:middle L:90%
the okay into doing lost anything. You know,

550
00:38:07.170 --> 00:38:08.800 A:middle L:90%
they said, you know, come on today,

551
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:15.019 A:middle L:90%
wake up. And they said about was Colombia's going

552
00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:17.639 A:middle L:90%
, you know, something like it. So and

553
00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:22.460 A:middle L:90%
they would. So she went. And even when

554
00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:25.789 A:middle L:90%
she went to Ecuador. She wasn't too. And

555
00:38:25.789 --> 00:38:30.750 A:middle L:90%
there, um, child in Belmar. Oh,

556
00:38:30.219 --> 00:38:32.250 A:middle L:90%
coming out and go on and you're going to have

557
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.340 A:middle L:90%
Uh huh. But that little group was a little

558
00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.679 A:middle L:90%
bit better because they did car washes and things together

559
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:40.730 A:middle L:90%
. Some of the other kids, you know,

560
00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:44.619 A:middle L:90%
I guess they've gotten a little bit older. And

561
00:38:44.619 --> 00:38:47.159 A:middle L:90%
they did watches and get really had a good time

562
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:52.739 A:middle L:90%
in. You said, Yeah. Always had hopes

563
00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:58.809 A:middle L:90%
of the one back then, right? Say very

564
00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:05.599 A:middle L:90%
true. Well, you remember that. And guests

565
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.710 A:middle L:90%
there are, You know, it was sad for

566
00:39:09.710 --> 00:39:15.000 A:middle L:90%
them there and that. And the jeep that really

567
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.539 A:middle L:90%
got hit with the mhm and the blood slide.

568
00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:22.949 A:middle L:90%
Some boy had gotten a new camera and gave us

569
00:39:22.949 --> 00:39:27.019 A:middle L:90%
supposed to be in the energy. He asked Gay

570
00:39:27.019 --> 00:39:30.239 A:middle L:90%
, which she trade seats with him and get in

571
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.019 A:middle L:90%
the so that he could take pictures and yeah,

572
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:42.050 A:middle L:90%
with Yeah, yeah, yes. Mm. I

573
00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:44.150 A:middle L:90%
know. They're coming at work and got me.

574
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.739 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, I have You had be talking on the

575
00:39:47.750 --> 00:39:50.869 A:middle L:90%
phone and said, Oh, what was the two

576
00:39:50.869 --> 00:39:52.949 A:middle L:90%
way radio things? And it wasn't like his name

577
00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:58.050 A:middle L:90%
. And one night I got this call. Some

578
00:39:58.050 --> 00:40:01.969 A:middle L:90%
man had our two way radios here in Lynchburg and

579
00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:05.789 A:middle L:90%
he would get in touch with the Children and and

580
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:07.730 A:middle L:90%
he's been called on the telephone and he was in

581
00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:12.429 A:middle L:90%
there and get ready to say something said over and

582
00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:15.289 A:middle L:90%
I will switch you over back. And when we

583
00:40:15.289 --> 00:40:19.210 A:middle L:90%
got it, gay acid. Okay, and she

584
00:40:19.210 --> 00:40:21.650 A:middle L:90%
said Yes, I said, What what is all

585
00:40:21.650 --> 00:40:22.780 A:middle L:90%
that? She said, Oh, Mom, fine

586
00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:24.559 A:middle L:90%
. I can't talk. We having a party with

587
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:34.469 A:middle L:90%
the Harlem Globetrotters? I It was at night,

588
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.760 A:middle L:90%
I mean, because I had time sometimes on and

589
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:37.960 A:middle L:90%
it was I was in the bed when they called

590
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:42.590 A:middle L:90%
at night, and I'm not for myself allowed that

591
00:40:42.590 --> 00:40:46.539 A:middle L:90%
she's all right, but she's still ready. I

592
00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:50.889 A:middle L:90%
think one of the reasons why my Children didn't fit

593
00:40:50.900 --> 00:40:55.190 A:middle L:90%
in with ST Paul Children was because they didn't know

594
00:40:55.190 --> 00:40:58.670 A:middle L:90%
any about it. My Children went to Amherst County

595
00:40:58.670 --> 00:41:00.980 A:middle L:90%
schools. Almost everybody else went to E. C

596
00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:05.650 A:middle L:90%
less and so the EC glass people, I guess

597
00:41:05.659 --> 00:41:08.139 A:middle L:90%
, kept to themselves and they just kind of I

598
00:41:08.150 --> 00:41:12.130 A:middle L:90%
didn't know my kids, so they just involved with

599
00:41:12.610 --> 00:41:14.840 A:middle L:90%
. But I have you. I was in one

600
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:16.349 A:middle L:90%
of the best Sunday school classes, Miss Putnam,

601
00:41:16.349 --> 00:41:22.630 A:middle L:90%
Kyle Misnomer Davis. Your everybody remembers this, Mary

602
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:27.869 A:middle L:90%
Davis and, uh, this Kyle got started going

603
00:41:27.869 --> 00:41:30.670 A:middle L:90%
to that class, and I ended up being almost

604
00:41:30.670 --> 00:41:36.179 A:middle L:90%
the second in command Davis talk. But when she

605
00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:37.780 A:middle L:90%
wasn't that, it always would ask me because I

606
00:41:37.789 --> 00:41:39.670 A:middle L:90%
think they thought I was smart. I wasn't as

607
00:41:39.670 --> 00:41:44.550 A:middle L:90%
smart as they thought, but I could read rather

608
00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:50.000 A:middle L:90%
face. But I enjoy that Bible class and I

609
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.039 A:middle L:90%
went every Sunday and then I was confirmed it at

610
00:41:53.050 --> 00:41:57.739 A:middle L:90%
Saint Paul's. And so I became a full member

611
00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:00.969 A:middle L:90%
and, you know, for everything. But uh

612
00:42:00.969 --> 00:42:06.239 A:middle L:90%
huh, it was the older people who welcomed us

613
00:42:06.250 --> 00:42:09.429 A:middle L:90%
. And what's the older people? Eight o'clock service

614
00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:13.710 A:middle L:90%
that we went? It was everybody because it wasn't

615
00:42:13.710 --> 00:42:16.389 A:middle L:90%
very many people every day. Most of them were

616
00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:20.809 A:middle L:90%
the old because the younger people Children, they didn't

617
00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:23.519 A:middle L:90%
much. But it was the old, like the

618
00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:30.210 A:middle L:90%
Dolans and Crossed and Jean Jones. I still talk

619
00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:36.320 A:middle L:90%
to her everything and so and then it was We

620
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.230 A:middle L:90%
had so nice with the com, very seldom missed

621
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.480 A:middle L:90%
. I still very seldom missed the Mississippi. I'm

622
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:51.320 A:middle L:90%
a member of ST John's, and, uh,

623
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:53.929 A:middle L:90%
I'm interested that you all went to ST Paul.

624
00:42:54.500 --> 00:43:00.409 A:middle L:90%
Even Dr Wesley and his family came to ST John's

625
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:07.400 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, left And I'd like some honest opinions

626
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:12.730 A:middle L:90%
about Oh, I can, but I'm not leaving

627
00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:16.500 A:middle L:90%
not being part of the conversation, but one with

628
00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:21.659 A:middle L:90%
big ears. You know, I've heard it being

629
00:43:21.670 --> 00:43:27.550 A:middle L:90%
discussed as far as the difference between ST Paul and

630
00:43:27.550 --> 00:43:32.590 A:middle L:90%
ST John, the the congregation. Lot more welcome

631
00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:37.769 A:middle L:90%
than that. Exactly. ST Paul's. I attended

632
00:43:37.769 --> 00:43:39.630 A:middle L:90%
ST Jones. A couple? Yes, and it

633
00:43:39.630 --> 00:43:43.760 A:middle L:90%
was like I wasn't there. Like maybe if we

634
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.110 A:middle L:90%
don't say anything, she won't come back next Sunday

635
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.730 A:middle L:90%
. And of course, I was single and young

636
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.320 A:middle L:90%
and bring your single in you. You walk into

637
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:58.019 A:middle L:90%
that situation, you probably won't go back and going

638
00:43:58.019 --> 00:44:00.510 A:middle L:90%
to ST Paul's. It was always that they I

639
00:44:01.190 --> 00:44:04.900 A:middle L:90%
know whether I have the same experience that you did

640
00:44:04.909 --> 00:44:07.289 A:middle L:90%
because I got married at ST Paul's. Young,

641
00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:12.139 A:middle L:90%
uh, my Children were raised at Saint Paul's young

642
00:44:12.150 --> 00:44:15.630 A:middle L:90%
, and they didn't have the same experiences that your

643
00:44:15.630 --> 00:44:19.409 A:middle L:90%
kids Yeah, but they attended the sea glass.

644
00:44:19.420 --> 00:44:22.539 A:middle L:90%
Will Giovanni attended, developed and across, but they

645
00:44:22.550 --> 00:44:25.239 A:middle L:90%
knew the other students that were there, so they

646
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:30.110 A:middle L:90%
didn't have the same problem that your Children had being

647
00:44:30.110 --> 00:44:34.210 A:middle L:90%
an Amherst and then trying to go to associated with

648
00:44:34.219 --> 00:44:37.539 A:middle L:90%
the Pittsburgh City kids. Probably by the time your

649
00:44:37.550 --> 00:44:43.469 A:middle L:90%
kids came along and it truly integrated by that because

650
00:44:43.469 --> 00:44:47.989 A:middle L:90%
your daughter and my granddaughter went to school. It

651
00:44:47.989 --> 00:44:52.940 A:middle L:90%
was a different kind of big, big. I

652
00:44:52.940 --> 00:44:59.500 A:middle L:90%
went to ST Holes for years. Every son and

653
00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:02.329 A:middle L:90%
only the usher as I was leaving, leaving at

654
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:07.719 A:middle L:90%
the end of the service says Thank you for visited

655
00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:13.369 A:middle L:90%
and that was it. And then one day I

656
00:45:13.369 --> 00:45:15.309 A:middle L:90%
was coming out of service and a lady came up

657
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:21.139 A:middle L:90%
to me and you Do you sing out? So

658
00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:22.760 A:middle L:90%
and I said Yes, She said, You must

659
00:45:22.769 --> 00:45:24.010 A:middle L:90%
be the one my mother was talking about. I'm

660
00:45:24.010 --> 00:45:27.519 A:middle L:90%
the organ. Is that Grace Church? I need

661
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.119 A:middle L:90%
an alto badly. Could you come join that?

662
00:45:30.130 --> 00:45:32.059 A:middle L:90%
Quite. And I said, Well, I might

663
00:45:32.059 --> 00:45:35.380 A:middle L:90%
as well. Nobody asked me that. I've been

664
00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:38.489 A:middle L:90%
thinking the same out in that church one year,

665
00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:42.090 A:middle L:90%
and if that lady could tell her daughter, why

666
00:45:42.090 --> 00:45:44.570 A:middle L:90%
didn't she tell her own organists or say something?

667
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:46.510 A:middle L:90%
But anyway, so that's where I would, and

668
00:45:46.510 --> 00:45:52.360 A:middle L:90%
that's where I sat and felt very grace. Well

669
00:45:52.369 --> 00:45:53.159 A:middle L:90%
, one year old man, I think had a

670
00:45:53.170 --> 00:45:57.510 A:middle L:90%
really good experience at ST Paul's, a Fox tail

671
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.550 A:middle L:90%
breaking box there. Uh, but Ricky is one

672
00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:04.159 A:middle L:90%
of these people who will have a good experience anybody

673
00:46:04.170 --> 00:46:06.670 A:middle L:90%
, because Ricky's are gonna get involved and he's going

674
00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:08.599 A:middle L:90%
to do things. And, uh, he and

675
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.909 A:middle L:90%
Peggy and my youngest girl, where the only two

676
00:46:12.909 --> 00:46:15.719 A:middle L:90%
African Americans in that group of Peggy was a shy

677
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:20.469 A:middle L:90%
kid. Ricky was an outgoing kid. The two

678
00:46:20.469 --> 00:46:22.969 A:middle L:90%
of them became friends, and he even asked about

679
00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:25.440 A:middle L:90%
her right now. Yeah, people used to think

680
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:30.000 A:middle L:90%
they might marry would have been nice because she would

681
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.829 A:middle L:90%
have more money to work with his head of the

682
00:46:35.829 --> 00:46:38.300 A:middle L:90%
Children's hospital. He was in Cleveland on how he

683
00:46:38.300 --> 00:46:42.599 A:middle L:90%
was a had surgery. Wow, that that you're

684
00:46:42.980 --> 00:46:45.449 A:middle L:90%
hospital. So Rickard was really outgoing, and even

685
00:46:45.449 --> 00:46:50.610 A:middle L:90%
her husband says that she should have married because she

686
00:46:50.619 --> 00:46:54.400 A:middle L:90%
had more money is being. But she went,

687
00:46:54.409 --> 00:46:57.949 A:middle L:90%
but she wasn't happy. But do you know she's

688
00:46:57.949 --> 00:47:00.670 A:middle L:90%
still in a principal church? And she took me

689
00:47:00.670 --> 00:47:05.969 A:middle L:90%
to an African American church in Raleigh, North Carolina

690
00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:07.309 A:middle L:90%
, where she attends a lot. Most of my

691
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:15.400 A:middle L:90%
kids, either John Baptist churches after they left Lynchburg

692
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:21.710 A:middle L:90%
. Oh, and the two that stayed here.

693
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:24.650 A:middle L:90%
One of them has drawn the Baptist Church. But

694
00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:29.900 A:middle L:90%
Peg is still is involved in the Episcopal Church.

695
00:47:30.579 --> 00:47:31.860 A:middle L:90%
Why do you think they joined the Baptist Church?

696
00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:36.550 A:middle L:90%
Is why do you think they joined the Baptist churches

697
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:37.380 A:middle L:90%
? I don't know. I think they just felt

698
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.369 A:middle L:90%
more relaxed that friends went to the Baptist churches.

699
00:47:40.369 --> 00:47:45.269 A:middle L:90%
And for them, it was Are they predominantly African

700
00:47:45.269 --> 00:47:50.789 A:middle L:90%
American congregations? Predominantly. Totally. Totally. Alright

701
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.090 A:middle L:90%
, for most of Yeah. Yeah. Do you

702
00:47:53.090 --> 00:47:55.559 A:middle L:90%
all know a name? A name of a woman

703
00:47:55.570 --> 00:47:59.340 A:middle L:90%
? Daisy Coals. Does that name ring a bell

704
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:05.030 A:middle L:90%
? Daisy Coals? No, there's a story.

705
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.349 A:middle L:90%
And, uh, Todd guy gave me a sermon

706
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:09.920 A:middle L:90%
that one of the previous rectors had preached. And

707
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:14.760 A:middle L:90%
he talked about a woman named Daisy Coals. Daisy

708
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.659 A:middle L:90%
Cole's. Tell me what your teeny lady that used

709
00:48:17.659 --> 00:48:21.110 A:middle L:90%
to be in church. Teeny weeny little lady.

710
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:23.619 A:middle L:90%
You think? I think that sounds right from a

711
00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:30.320 A:middle L:90%
lot of money thinking that was the one. The

712
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:34.789 A:middle L:90%
story and the sermon is that the rector noticed a

713
00:48:34.789 --> 00:48:38.289 A:middle L:90%
small teeth black woman on Good Friday, I think

714
00:48:38.289 --> 00:48:42.369 A:middle L:90%
very, very fair. She was not happy with

715
00:48:42.369 --> 00:48:45.000 A:middle L:90%
the closing of the chapel. The good shepherd.

716
00:48:45.969 --> 00:48:50.460 A:middle L:90%
Do you remember title the name Cold. And that

717
00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:54.190 A:middle L:90%
was a lady. I was very, very fair

718
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:57.429 A:middle L:90%
. You may have thought she was white. She

719
00:48:57.429 --> 00:49:00.309 A:middle L:90%
used to live in a house, An extra everybody

720
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:04.349 A:middle L:90%
. She was dirt poor. Yeah, I remember

721
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:07.159 A:middle L:90%
. We all just calling Misko. Yeah, I

722
00:49:07.170 --> 00:49:10.250 A:middle L:90%
remember. I remember her old when she was an

723
00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:14.559 A:middle L:90%
old lady. She lived to be old. I'm

724
00:49:14.570 --> 00:49:17.380 A:middle L:90%
saying, Oh, ST calls put in that new

725
00:49:17.380 --> 00:49:22.590 A:middle L:90%
organism everything. She gave a considerable amount of money

726
00:49:22.969 --> 00:49:25.659 A:middle L:90%
to the organ. I remember that part of and

727
00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:29.340 A:middle L:90%
I used to remember seeing her name is Daisy.

728
00:49:29.510 --> 00:49:32.460 A:middle L:90%
We miss Cole, And, uh, we never

729
00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:36.210 A:middle L:90%
knew her first name and she was at church all

730
00:49:36.210 --> 00:49:40.199 A:middle L:90%
the time. Every Sunday she gets kind of stage

731
00:49:40.289 --> 00:49:45.960 A:middle L:90%
, You know, I think she according to the

732
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:46.780 A:middle L:90%
sermon, and I'll share it with you at some

733
00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:50.849 A:middle L:90%
point. She didn't come to church for a period

734
00:49:50.849 --> 00:49:53.000 A:middle L:90%
of time after Chapel of the Good Shepherd closed.

735
00:49:53.570 --> 00:49:59.579 A:middle L:90%
Really? So you don't remember her from the time

736
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:00.539 A:middle L:90%
at the Church of the Good Shepherd? I can

737
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:05.309 A:middle L:90%
remember this little lady coming in, but she'd always

738
00:50:05.309 --> 00:50:07.559 A:middle L:90%
come in and just come in, but she would

739
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.269 A:middle L:90%
get out of there before anybody could say anything,

740
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:12.659 A:middle L:90%
you know, we said, see him on the

741
00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:15.050 A:middle L:90%
top. Do you remember her then later at ST

742
00:50:15.050 --> 00:50:21.079 A:middle L:90%
Paul's. So you do? I said what I

743
00:50:21.090 --> 00:50:25.860 A:middle L:90%
went alongside. She was angry because we my kids

744
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:30.619 A:middle L:90%
and I had Francis Gay. We always set up

745
00:50:30.630 --> 00:50:36.460 A:middle L:90%
almost front. The hand of his name was Marshall

746
00:50:36.460 --> 00:50:39.489 A:middle L:90%
Crisis. He was a lot. And we right

747
00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:47.670 A:middle L:90%
him and his wife and the most And then,

748
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:51.159 A:middle L:90%
you know, that's where we would say, But

749
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.510 A:middle L:90%
she would be sitting over and she'd get up once

750
00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:57.849 A:middle L:90%
there. When you come get up union and leave

751
00:50:57.849 --> 00:51:00.110 A:middle L:90%
him to see it right all night. And when

752
00:51:00.110 --> 00:51:01.360 A:middle L:90%
you get outside, you wouldn't wouldn't see her.

753
00:51:01.690 --> 00:51:06.019 A:middle L:90%
I never knew what mhm. I think she lived

754
00:51:06.019 --> 00:51:08.579 A:middle L:90%
right up next to Hutchison feeling that was a house

755
00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:14.579 A:middle L:90%
going up this street on the left, the you

756
00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:16.610 A:middle L:90%
see Hutchison Funeral home. Then it was Polk Street

757
00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.780 A:middle L:90%
and I think she lived in a house right next

758
00:51:20.260 --> 00:51:22.039 A:middle L:90%
. I never know, but anyway, I can't

759
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:29.090 A:middle L:90%
remember. I can't remember saying but when they were

760
00:51:29.090 --> 00:51:30.510 A:middle L:90%
very friendly to us and saying I mean when when

761
00:51:30.510 --> 00:51:36.059 A:middle L:90%
we started going, they mm, mhm. I

762
00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:38.940 A:middle L:90%
think the trouble was before. The trouble was in

763
00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:40.730 A:middle L:90%
the years prior to it, and it was it

764
00:51:40.730 --> 00:51:43.949 A:middle L:90%
him. Lock Haven, Um, I'd love to

765
00:51:43.949 --> 00:51:45.099 A:middle L:90%
hear more about who you remember from him. Like

766
00:51:45.099 --> 00:51:47.480 A:middle L:90%
haven. Where do you remember staying in a cabin

767
00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:52.980 A:middle L:90%
with other teenagers? Uh, with, uh,

768
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:59.079 A:middle L:90%
kids my age. One girl in particular, she

769
00:51:59.090 --> 00:52:01.219 A:middle L:90%
may have gone. I'm not sure that her and

770
00:52:01.219 --> 00:52:05.670 A:middle L:90%
her family went to Saint Paul was ST John's.

771
00:52:06.250 --> 00:52:09.679 A:middle L:90%
But Cathy Price, do you know? And then

772
00:52:10.449 --> 00:52:15.579 A:middle L:90%
anyway, she my brothers, my middle brother and

773
00:52:15.579 --> 00:52:20.880 A:middle L:90%
I were the first to to integrate Paramount Elementary School

774
00:52:21.250 --> 00:52:25.659 A:middle L:90%
. And I remember Kathy from third or fourth grade

775
00:52:25.670 --> 00:52:30.159 A:middle L:90%
from over there, and she was always friendly and

776
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.269 A:middle L:90%
nice. So when I ran into her in the

777
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:37.570 A:middle L:90%
church setting, it didn't surprised me that she was

778
00:52:37.579 --> 00:52:39.309 A:middle L:90%
, you know, she was exactly the same.

779
00:52:39.340 --> 00:52:43.010 A:middle L:90%
She went to him Lock haven. That same year

780
00:52:43.010 --> 00:52:46.179 A:middle L:90%
, the gay and I went and so he was

781
00:52:46.550 --> 00:52:51.900 A:middle L:90%
friendly. And but nobody else, Not even counselors

782
00:52:51.909 --> 00:52:52.340 A:middle L:90%
. Do you remember the counts, any of the

783
00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:54.309 A:middle L:90%
council's names or any of the people who were on

784
00:52:54.309 --> 00:52:58.409 A:middle L:90%
staff or any of the any of the clergy?

785
00:52:58.420 --> 00:53:01.289 A:middle L:90%
Do you remember Bishop Marmee and being there. I

786
00:53:01.289 --> 00:53:07.969 A:middle L:90%
remember mentioned, but I couldn't say any interaction with

787
00:53:09.130 --> 00:53:13.119 A:middle L:90%
And as far as what and what you were asking

788
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:21.170 A:middle L:90%
about the difference between ST Paul and ST John.

789
00:53:22.550 --> 00:53:27.050 A:middle L:90%
Now, Reverend Spong was very well. The head

790
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:30.000 A:middle L:90%
man himself was very well. I can never say

791
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:32.380 A:middle L:90%
that he reached out to my mother and father.

792
00:53:32.849 --> 00:53:37.699 A:middle L:90%
Okay. Close friends, I think, as an

793
00:53:37.710 --> 00:53:45.239 A:middle L:90%
overall church. People at ST Paul, We're I

794
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.500 A:middle L:90%
don't know why. What was? Because a lot

795
00:53:47.500 --> 00:53:52.710 A:middle L:90%
A lot of people who went to ST John lived

796
00:53:52.710 --> 00:53:54.440 A:middle L:90%
in the same areas of town that the people that

797
00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:58.440 A:middle L:90%
ST Paul, uh, lived in as well.

798
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.619 A:middle L:90%
But there was always for some reason, and it

799
00:54:02.619 --> 00:54:06.150 A:middle L:90%
lasts. You know, it started off like that

800
00:54:06.150 --> 00:54:07.730 A:middle L:90%
, and it lasted. You know, I can

801
00:54:07.739 --> 00:54:14.849 A:middle L:90%
remember taking my mother to ST Paul, maybe 33

802
00:54:14.849 --> 00:54:19.000 A:middle L:90%
years before she passed, when she was still walking

803
00:54:19.010 --> 00:54:22.309 A:middle L:90%
. But she needed needed help, so she wanted

804
00:54:22.309 --> 00:54:23.460 A:middle L:90%
to take them in. You know, I get

805
00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:27.250 A:middle L:90%
up on one side and go around and then come

806
00:54:27.260 --> 00:54:30.039 A:middle L:90%
up the middle aisle. Well, that's what we

807
00:54:30.050 --> 00:54:34.369 A:middle L:90%
did. We went down the right side. You

808
00:54:34.369 --> 00:54:38.420 A:middle L:90%
have it and And now And it dawned on me

809
00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:44.909 A:middle L:90%
that everybody was was smelling, you know, everybody

810
00:54:44.909 --> 00:54:46.960 A:middle L:90%
was smiling her, even the babies was smile.

811
00:54:47.539 --> 00:54:52.159 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, and that's just the feel Always got.

812
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:58.679 A:middle L:90%
Well, you all stayed at ST John's for a

813
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:04.159 A:middle L:90%
while. I remember because I had moved to Richmond

814
00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:12.170 A:middle L:90%
, but I know that. And then Dad got

815
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:17.679 A:middle L:90%
sick after that is part well, I remember from

816
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:22.880 A:middle L:90%
ST John's view we used to We had a woman's

817
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:27.800 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, that men in each other's homes. But

818
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:31.739 A:middle L:90%
once word got out, the integration was gone to

819
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:37.469 A:middle L:90%
be. They changed and only and I can't remember

820
00:55:37.469 --> 00:55:44.800 A:middle L:90%
it. I'm sure your mother must have felt I

821
00:55:44.809 --> 00:55:47.679 A:middle L:90%
didn't know that Change what it did. You what

822
00:55:47.690 --> 00:55:50.869 A:middle L:90%
? It was the woman's group. I don't you

823
00:55:50.869 --> 00:55:57.760 A:middle L:90%
know you have You had a W and they circles

824
00:55:57.869 --> 00:56:00.940 A:middle L:90%
circles there. They used to meet in each other's

825
00:56:00.940 --> 00:56:05.030 A:middle L:90%
home until they heard about integration. And then they

826
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.349 A:middle L:90%
start meeting at the church. Well, I got

827
00:56:07.349 --> 00:56:10.469 A:middle L:90%
invited to a lot of people's homes. I went

828
00:56:10.469 --> 00:56:17.599 A:middle L:90%
into some fabulous room mansion, two different things from

829
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:21.369 A:middle L:90%
ST Paul ST Paul's from the same problem I'm talking

830
00:56:21.369 --> 00:56:29.159 A:middle L:90%
about. Yeah, mhm. But things have changed

831
00:56:29.170 --> 00:56:31.300 A:middle L:90%
. I don't think so. New money is what

832
00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:36.769 A:middle L:90%
I was. That's the room of the war.

833
00:56:36.769 --> 00:56:38.010 A:middle L:90%
And I was coming at that time when he was

834
00:56:38.019 --> 00:56:45.300 A:middle L:90%
talking about changing churches. Saint John's with Consider the

835
00:56:45.309 --> 00:56:49.789 A:middle L:90%
rich folks parish. And that was new money.

836
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.199 A:middle L:90%
Church and ST Paul's was the old money church because

837
00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:59.659 A:middle L:90%
it was more older people of rich players. Mhm

838
00:57:00.329 --> 00:57:04.199 A:middle L:90%
. Mhm. Mm. Yeah, Grace, we

839
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:10.519 A:middle L:90%
were hard working. I'm Grace. Uh, and

840
00:57:10.530 --> 00:57:15.469 A:middle L:90%
I got a service. Race is like a neighborhood

841
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:20.960 A:middle L:90%
church. It kind of reminds me of because it

842
00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:23.159 A:middle L:90%
sits right there on the corner. It's a pretty

843
00:57:23.530 --> 00:57:28.369 A:middle L:90%
little chapel, like churches not big and massive,

844
00:57:28.539 --> 00:57:32.349 A:middle L:90%
like ST Paul's or ST. Yeah, unlike,

845
00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:36.659 A:middle L:90%
unlike Well, I remember when true Dat and I

846
00:57:36.659 --> 00:57:38.670 A:middle L:90%
went to her funeral. She had just had her

847
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:45.619 A:middle L:90%
100th birthday, and they did the chimes for 100

848
00:57:45.619 --> 00:57:49.420 A:middle L:90%
times. She reset that very quietly while they did

849
00:57:49.429 --> 00:57:55.519 A:middle L:90%
100 chance of the outside bail in her Hama.

850
00:57:55.539 --> 00:58:00.750 A:middle L:90%
And I thought that was really very, very nice

851
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:02.139 A:middle L:90%
. My husband didn't give that long, but he

852
00:58:02.139 --> 00:58:07.389 A:middle L:90%
would have wanted that. Uh huh. We do

853
00:58:07.389 --> 00:58:10.320 A:middle L:90%
that at all. Yeah. And we do that

854
00:58:10.329 --> 00:58:14.489 A:middle L:90%
at all of the funerals. You do Wait a

855
00:58:14.500 --> 00:58:16.000 A:middle L:90%
number of years. For me, it was just

856
00:58:16.010 --> 00:58:19.500 A:middle L:90%
really I had never been to a few of anybody

857
00:58:19.500 --> 00:58:21.650 A:middle L:90%
who was 100. Been to a lot of reasons

858
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:22.889 A:middle L:90%
, and I think I might have to go to

859
00:58:22.900 --> 00:58:27.599 A:middle L:90%
one of the later with 109. Her daughter was

860
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:30.179 A:middle L:90%
my classmate and I talked to a couple of days

861
00:58:30.179 --> 00:58:34.130 A:middle L:90%
ago, and she said her mother was not doing

862
00:58:34.139 --> 00:58:39.519 A:middle L:90%
well. Miss Africa. Okay, mother, we're

863
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:43.239 A:middle L:90%
actually about it. At 90 minutes it's almost 11

864
00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:47.409 A:middle L:90%
30. So I'll ask if there any final comments

865
00:58:47.409 --> 00:58:52.110 A:middle L:90%
that you might like to make about your experience at

866
00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:52.739 A:middle L:90%
now. Call it Church of the Good Shepherd,

867
00:58:52.739 --> 00:58:54.539 A:middle L:90%
since that's what you all called it, despite what

868
00:58:54.539 --> 00:58:58.730 A:middle L:90%
the official name might have been, or anything that

869
00:58:58.730 --> 00:59:06.340 A:middle L:90%
you'd like to add growing up at home in Richmond

870
00:59:07.219 --> 00:59:08.250 A:middle L:90%
, I was in church with all my teachers,

871
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.139 A:middle L:90%
mhm, and you had to be on your best

872
00:59:12.150 --> 00:59:15.880 A:middle L:90%
behavior besides the fact that mother was up in the

873
00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:16.860 A:middle L:90%
quiet and then we had to sit on the opposite

874
00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:19.690 A:middle L:90%
side so she could see us. And if we

875
00:59:19.690 --> 00:59:21.539 A:middle L:90%
got that, I we knew we were in trouble

876
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:24.880 A:middle L:90%
. I came here and started going to the In

877
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:30.280 A:middle L:90%
addition, my principal, whom I thought or he

878
00:59:30.289 --> 00:59:30.840 A:middle L:90%
was a member of the church. So I said

879
00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:36.000 A:middle L:90%
it would be all about it Was that my principal

880
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:40.960 A:middle L:90%
was Mr Duncan. I was an English teacher at

881
00:59:40.969 --> 00:59:50.250 A:middle L:90%
his school down in camp. Okay, Yeah.

882
00:59:50.460 --> 00:59:53.650 A:middle L:90%
Which school was this? Kim County High School.

883
00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:59.750 A:middle L:90%
I'd like to make a statement that people that Bishop

884
00:59:59.750 --> 01:00:04.809 A:middle L:90%
Mario and chose to come and do Good Shepherd Church

885
01:00:04.809 --> 01:00:08.210 A:middle L:90%
seemed to be the most likeable people that families and

886
01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:12.380 A:middle L:90%
everything. And, uh, even though I wasn't

887
01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:14.079 A:middle L:90%
a member of the church, I would go to

888
01:00:14.090 --> 01:00:17.079 A:middle L:90%
Father Teasers house and help her do things. And

889
01:00:17.090 --> 01:00:20.909 A:middle L:90%
when the preachers were all gonna be there for lunch

890
01:00:20.909 --> 01:00:22.159 A:middle L:90%
, I'd go and help her serve lunch. And

891
01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:25.630 A:middle L:90%
I would always welcome in their homes. And as

892
01:00:25.630 --> 01:00:30.099 A:middle L:90%
far as Dr Parrish was concerned, uh, you

893
01:00:30.099 --> 01:00:31.099 A:middle L:90%
know, I went to Lynchburg College, But even

894
01:00:31.099 --> 01:00:35.480 A:middle L:90%
before that, I taught his song, and so

895
01:00:35.489 --> 01:00:37.389 A:middle L:90%
, you know, I got to know them on

896
01:00:37.389 --> 01:00:39.059 A:middle L:90%
a personal basis, and I just thought he said

897
01:00:39.070 --> 01:00:44.599 A:middle L:90%
, Wonderful. Rector's two good champion church. I

898
01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:46.829 A:middle L:90%
don't know if he hand picked him or what,

899
01:00:47.210 --> 01:00:51.030 A:middle L:90%
but all of the I met there seemed to have

900
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:54.690 A:middle L:90%
been likeable people. They were just They're putting on

901
01:00:54.690 --> 01:00:59.059 A:middle L:90%
the show, you know, trying to pretend that

902
01:00:59.059 --> 01:01:01.429 A:middle L:90%
they liked blacks. I think they were genuine.

903
01:01:02.110 --> 01:01:07.489 A:middle L:90%
That's what I at the same day seems to want

904
01:01:07.489 --> 01:01:12.489 A:middle L:90%
to be there on Sundays. And I don't think

905
01:01:12.489 --> 01:01:15.679 A:middle L:90%
that any of them felt got to go to this

906
01:01:15.690 --> 01:01:20.170 A:middle L:90%
black church face. It was always the one seemed

907
01:01:20.170 --> 01:01:22.320 A:middle L:90%
to want to be at the church on Sunday.

908
01:01:22.909 --> 01:01:25.630 A:middle L:90%
Now may not have been the case. Sometimes you

909
01:01:25.630 --> 01:01:28.940 A:middle L:90%
can go to a church if there's a priest there

910
01:01:29.510 --> 01:01:30.639 A:middle L:90%
was made to come to that church, too.

911
01:01:31.110 --> 01:01:34.449 A:middle L:90%
Do services for that church. You can almost tell

912
01:01:34.449 --> 01:01:37.389 A:middle L:90%
that they don't really want to be there listening to

913
01:01:37.389 --> 01:01:40.780 A:middle L:90%
the sermon that he's going to give that Sunday our

914
01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:45.130 A:middle L:90%
precinct to and not all of them were young.

915
01:01:45.909 --> 01:01:49.380 A:middle L:90%
I don't think they all were in there. Let's

916
01:01:49.380 --> 01:01:52.070 A:middle L:90%
say thirties back then or forties they were. Some

917
01:01:52.070 --> 01:01:54.929 A:middle L:90%
of them were older, and they seem to want

918
01:01:54.929 --> 01:01:58.429 A:middle L:90%
to be at that church to do the services,

919
01:01:58.809 --> 01:02:01.000 A:middle L:90%
and they seem to love the people people that they

920
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:06.599 A:middle L:90%
were in charge, and I think that word love

921
01:02:06.610 --> 01:02:07.539 A:middle L:90%
says it all for them, you know, that

922
01:02:07.539 --> 01:02:13.159 A:middle L:90%
was genuine love that they only come out to.

923
01:02:13.170 --> 01:02:15.320 A:middle L:90%
We lived out on five or one like, and

924
01:02:15.699 --> 01:02:19.099 A:middle L:90%
we call it the country. Still, you call

925
01:02:19.099 --> 01:02:21.800 A:middle L:90%
it what you saw the other country. Uh,

926
01:02:21.809 --> 01:02:25.079 A:middle L:90%
that was that, Uh, but they were all

927
01:02:25.090 --> 01:02:27.960 A:middle L:90%
I mean, every one of them that were saying

928
01:02:27.969 --> 01:02:31.050 A:middle L:90%
they would come to mom home to my mom and

929
01:02:31.050 --> 01:02:37.860 A:middle L:90%
dad. Hm. They were always were sincere.

930
01:02:37.869 --> 01:02:39.690 A:middle L:90%
And they would just come just Well, we just

931
01:02:39.690 --> 01:02:43.650 A:middle L:90%
said, come and sit and talk to Are we

932
01:02:43.650 --> 01:02:45.809 A:middle L:90%
come to see what's going on? You know how

933
01:02:45.809 --> 01:02:46.730 A:middle L:90%
you, you know, you know, something like

934
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:51.500 A:middle L:90%
but they were all very friendly. My mother loved

935
01:02:51.510 --> 01:02:58.050 A:middle L:90%
Peter. Wow. She thought he was, um

936
01:02:58.150 --> 01:02:59.800 A:middle L:90%
, the best thing. I mean, she loved

937
01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:02.159 A:middle L:90%
them all. And my dad catalog. My dad

938
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:07.750 A:middle L:90%
loved all of us. And he said that when

939
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:12.349 A:middle L:90%
now Teeter got arrested, he said I told him

940
01:03:12.349 --> 01:03:20.849 A:middle L:90%
nothing. Yeah, but say we can't along go

941
01:03:20.860 --> 01:03:23.559 A:middle L:90%
up. Said they showed us that they wanted to

942
01:03:23.570 --> 01:03:27.980 A:middle L:90%
be where they were and that they were really called

943
01:03:27.989 --> 01:03:30.719 A:middle L:90%
the job that they would mhm have it. Excuse

944
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:32.849 A:middle L:90%
me. I believe all of this stems from the

945
01:03:32.860 --> 01:03:37.889 A:middle L:90%
fact that Bishop Marmon himself seemed to be a person

946
01:03:37.889 --> 01:03:40.510 A:middle L:90%
who loved people. It didn't matter what color.

947
01:03:42.900 --> 01:03:46.739 A:middle L:90%
And he showed this in the way handle things and

948
01:03:46.750 --> 01:03:52.820 A:middle L:90%
even took when, when he was integrating the churches

949
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:54.869 A:middle L:90%
that never came out, he was getting rid of

950
01:03:54.869 --> 01:03:58.230 A:middle L:90%
all the small churches that they couldn't afford. He

951
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:02.230 A:middle L:90%
never made us feel like, uh that this was

952
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:04.619 A:middle L:90%
to, you know, to get us into the

953
01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:09.780 A:middle L:90%
white churches and made us feel like all the churches

954
01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:13.210 A:middle L:90%
little churches were being closed, so we weren't given

955
01:04:13.210 --> 01:04:15.599 A:middle L:90%
it a special preference. You know, we were

956
01:04:15.599 --> 01:04:20.550 A:middle L:90%
told to visit the churches. We were told this

957
01:04:20.550 --> 01:04:24.110 A:middle L:90%
church is going to close and all of the provisions

958
01:04:24.590 --> 01:04:29.170 A:middle L:90%
here must attend. Same false. You were asked

959
01:04:29.170 --> 01:04:31.750 A:middle L:90%
to visit all of the Episcopal churches and make your

960
01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:35.400 A:middle L:90%
own decision because they were saying valuables and that there

961
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:40.510 A:middle L:90%
were churches, like an alabaster. Um, you

962
01:04:40.510 --> 01:04:43.750 A:middle L:90%
know, So we were told. Just go over

963
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:47.010 A:middle L:90%
laws make. Oh, my. And I think

964
01:04:47.010 --> 01:04:50.469 A:middle L:90%
the people down there spread out to all of the

965
01:04:50.469 --> 01:04:58.820 A:middle L:90%
church elite for a while. Anybody else? Um

966
01:04:58.829 --> 01:05:03.960 A:middle L:90%
, from from the I had moved Can. Speaking

967
01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:06.139 A:middle L:90%
of regimen, I went to your home church for

968
01:05:06.150 --> 01:05:15.590 A:middle L:90%
Easter. Say, Bill? Were there people who

969
01:05:15.590 --> 01:05:25.650 A:middle L:90%
left something on Dr Jackson? Thank you. No

970
01:05:25.650 --> 01:05:27.639 A:middle L:90%
, They start. No, they tended. What's

971
01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:30.219 A:middle L:90%
the other church out? Trinity Trading. I think

972
01:05:30.219 --> 01:05:34.219 A:middle L:90%
they attended Trinity. It's for church. They didn't

973
01:05:34.230 --> 01:05:38.840 A:middle L:90%
They didn't they? You know, they came to

974
01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:44.679 A:middle L:90%
ST Dr Jackson came to ST Paul's, but then

975
01:05:44.679 --> 01:05:47.860 A:middle L:90%
left. They left, and they did not stay

976
01:05:47.860 --> 01:05:55.920 A:middle L:90%
and say it's closer to where they live. They

977
01:05:59.170 --> 01:06:03.000 A:middle L:90%
were doctor. No, she goes to church.

978
01:06:03.980 --> 01:06:06.369 A:middle L:90%
I don't think so. If she I don't think

979
01:06:06.369 --> 01:06:11.710 A:middle L:90%
she was sort sort of practising fiscal baby. Uh

980
01:06:12.179 --> 01:06:15.619 A:middle L:90%
, I remember she was on tv talking about him

981
01:06:15.630 --> 01:06:18.179 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, Yes. Uh, but I didn't

982
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:23.429 A:middle L:90%
know whether. And remember a lot of this hammock

983
01:06:23.429 --> 01:06:26.670 A:middle L:90%
haven stuff. I'm trying to to, you know

984
01:06:26.679 --> 01:06:30.789 A:middle L:90%
, to remember that I don't Was there some confusion

985
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:33.190 A:middle L:90%
about I just picked up? What? When I

986
01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:36.400 A:middle L:90%
picked up from being a child and just sense to

987
01:06:36.409 --> 01:06:40.929 A:middle L:90%
go, But I didn't know what you know.

988
01:06:40.940 --> 01:06:45.230 A:middle L:90%
When you were coming more or less when you were

989
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:47.570 A:middle L:90%
coming along, it wasn't, but it wasn't for

990
01:06:47.570 --> 01:06:54.380 A:middle L:90%
the That's it. They closed the conference center for

991
01:06:54.380 --> 01:06:58.079 A:middle L:90%
two years rather than integrated, integrated right, And

992
01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:02.619 A:middle L:90%
it caused a great deal of discussion among the diocese

993
01:07:02.619 --> 01:07:05.090 A:middle L:90%
and the clergy and the bishop were in favour of

994
01:07:05.090 --> 01:07:10.119 A:middle L:90%
integration largely in the laity were largely against it.

995
01:07:10.130 --> 01:07:11.590 A:middle L:90%
Um, and we're at the end of this.

996
01:07:11.590 --> 01:07:14.150 A:middle L:90%
I'm telling you this instead of hearing your stories because

997
01:07:14.150 --> 01:07:15.329 A:middle L:90%
I've heard some of your reflections, and that's so

998
01:07:15.329 --> 01:07:18.510 A:middle L:90%
interesting. But Dr McGill, who was the priest

999
01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:21.480 A:middle L:90%
at ST John's, was part of the opposition to

1000
01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:26.349 A:middle L:90%
the integration, which he was right before Dr Spong

1001
01:07:26.460 --> 01:07:30.059 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, When did they close? It was

1002
01:07:30.070 --> 01:07:33.639 A:middle L:90%
1959 through 61 I think Ish and then it opened

1003
01:07:33.639 --> 01:07:41.309 A:middle L:90%
back up in 60 one or two. They purchased

1004
01:07:41.309 --> 01:07:45.469 A:middle L:90%
it in 57 I don't think it ever It just

1005
01:07:45.469 --> 01:07:46.369 A:middle L:90%
never got going on the date. I can give

1006
01:07:46.369 --> 01:07:50.440 A:middle L:90%
you the dates more carefully, but it was a

1007
01:07:50.449 --> 01:07:57.739 A:middle L:90%
cause of controversy at the diocesan councils at council.

1008
01:07:57.750 --> 01:08:00.130 A:middle L:90%
Uh, it was a big discussion at council,

1009
01:08:00.139 --> 01:08:01.869 A:middle L:90%
and it was in the news. It was on

1010
01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:03.760 A:middle L:90%
W S. C. T. R. Wsls

1011
01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:09.179 A:middle L:90%
had two reports one in May of 64 I think

1012
01:08:09.190 --> 01:08:13.179 A:middle L:90%
, and one in September. Talking about the controversy

1013
01:08:13.190 --> 01:08:16.710 A:middle L:90%
in the Episcopal Church over this integration of the conference

1014
01:08:16.710 --> 01:08:21.170 A:middle L:90%
center. Mhm. But you were unaware. I

1015
01:08:21.180 --> 01:08:27.800 A:middle L:90%
just knew that something was culture. Yeah, it

1016
01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:30.180 A:middle L:90%
wasn't right. It didn't have a good feeling.

1017
01:08:30.869 --> 01:08:32.090 A:middle L:90%
And I thank them all this kind of picked.

1018
01:08:32.569 --> 01:08:41.279 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. Thank. And I had the feeling that

1019
01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:44.470 A:middle L:90%
I wasn't going there because I really wanted, you

1020
01:08:44.470 --> 01:08:45.789 A:middle L:90%
know, I was born there for a reason.

1021
01:08:46.170 --> 01:08:49.100 A:middle L:90%
You were convinced by church member. Is that right

1022
01:08:49.109 --> 01:08:57.880 A:middle L:90%
? You said you were kids nowadays, they don't

1023
01:08:57.880 --> 01:09:01.069 A:middle L:90%
want to go. And when Gloria and my kids

1024
01:09:01.069 --> 01:09:05.399 A:middle L:90%
will come if whatever her mother told her Mhm.

1025
01:09:05.770 --> 01:09:12.020 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. Oh, my kids, they we lived

1026
01:09:12.020 --> 01:09:15.039 A:middle L:90%
at home with my mother. And then So that's

1027
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.109 A:middle L:90%
why they call the mother, mother and dad and

1028
01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:24.250 A:middle L:90%
whatever they got together best in my dad Have a

1029
01:09:24.250 --> 01:09:27.750 A:middle L:90%
day. And so you're gonna be with Gloria,

1030
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:30.100 A:middle L:90%
you know? So there are these two little girls

1031
01:09:30.770 --> 01:09:34.119 A:middle L:90%
the world together. Do you think that someone asked

1032
01:09:34.119 --> 01:09:38.810 A:middle L:90%
your parents to convince your daughter to go or did

1033
01:09:38.810 --> 01:09:40.560 A:middle L:90%
? Do you recall any that you said you felt

1034
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:43.899 A:middle L:90%
like they were picked? I know I'm not.

1035
01:09:44.270 --> 01:09:50.300 A:middle L:90%
I am Asset. Well, right, but do

1036
01:09:50.300 --> 01:09:53.789 A:middle L:90%
you have a memory of somebody saying really be important

1037
01:09:53.789 --> 01:10:00.310 A:middle L:90%
for gay to go to this, Uh, good

1038
01:10:00.579 --> 01:10:03.010 A:middle L:90%
. And he was the director of the camp.

1039
01:10:03.020 --> 01:10:10.369 A:middle L:90%
He was a member. Uh, Mr Farrell Frost

1040
01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:17.699 A:middle L:90%
. Yes. And Marshall Frost, cause he knew

1041
01:10:17.710 --> 01:10:21.000 A:middle L:90%
that we were there and he told me and he

1042
01:10:21.010 --> 01:10:25.630 A:middle L:90%
told my dad, Um, yes, if he

1043
01:10:25.630 --> 01:10:30.699 A:middle L:90%
needs to. So and I don't know what I

1044
01:10:30.699 --> 01:10:34.079 A:middle L:90%
know that they didn't go that well, that it

1045
01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:38.619 A:middle L:90%
would be a good thing before good for justice.

1046
01:10:38.619 --> 01:10:44.399 A:middle L:90%
And you need to go. So this must have

1047
01:10:44.409 --> 01:10:47.260 A:middle L:90%
been when it reopened. Yes, Well, it

1048
01:10:47.270 --> 01:10:55.779 A:middle L:90%
closed you. It never really opened because they bought

1049
01:10:55.779 --> 01:10:58.239 A:middle L:90%
it. And then before they opened it, there

1050
01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:00.750 A:middle L:90%
was a controversy, and then it closed. Bishop

1051
01:11:00.750 --> 01:11:04.220 A:middle L:90%
Marmon was consecrated as the bishop of the diocese within

1052
01:11:04.220 --> 01:11:08.720 A:middle L:90%
a week of the Brown versus Board of Education decision

1053
01:11:08.729 --> 01:11:13.960 A:middle L:90%
in 1954. So he came into this diocese with

1054
01:11:13.970 --> 01:11:16.100 A:middle L:90%
integration very much on his conscience, and he studied

1055
01:11:16.100 --> 01:11:19.000 A:middle L:90%
it. Uh, and he was a very deliberate

1056
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:23.600 A:middle L:90%
, careful, loving man, uh, and studied

1057
01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:26.470 A:middle L:90%
it carefully and decided that it was a gospel mandate

1058
01:11:27.060 --> 01:11:30.649 A:middle L:90%
. Right? He let you kiss him on the

1059
01:11:30.649 --> 01:11:38.390 A:middle L:90%
cheek, he would kiss you. Mhm. Well

1060
01:11:38.390 --> 01:11:41.189 A:middle L:90%
, I don't know what happened to candidates from other

1061
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:45.609 A:middle L:90%
predominantly African American churches. But I know whenever they

1062
01:11:45.609 --> 01:11:47.930 A:middle L:90%
had to be conventions, the guys from ST Paul's

1063
01:11:47.930 --> 01:11:51.699 A:middle L:90%
always stated his. That's my husband. Loved that

1064
01:11:51.710 --> 01:11:55.130 A:middle L:90%
. That's wonderful. Are you aware of any of

1065
01:11:55.130 --> 01:11:58.229 A:middle L:90%
the other African American churches? There was ST Phillips

1066
01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:00.859 A:middle L:90%
in Bedford. I didn't know about any of ST

1067
01:12:00.859 --> 01:12:04.220 A:middle L:90%
Lukes in Roanoke. ST. Paul's in Martinsville.

1068
01:12:04.229 --> 01:12:06.510 A:middle L:90%
ST. Paul still exists. Oh, I've been

1069
01:12:06.510 --> 01:12:11.529 A:middle L:90%
to ST Paul's in Marginal. My daughter joined that

1070
01:12:11.529 --> 01:12:14.229 A:middle L:90%
when she first moved to Martin Field. And I've

1071
01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:16.359 A:middle L:90%
been to that church alive, and they are still

1072
01:12:16.359 --> 01:12:19.949 A:middle L:90%
predominantly black. A word last time I was there

1073
01:12:20.010 --> 01:12:23.270 A:middle L:90%
. I don't know that they have any white member

1074
01:12:23.649 --> 01:12:25.739 A:middle L:90%
. They do have some white members. Did you

1075
01:12:25.750 --> 01:12:27.630 A:middle L:90%
? Yes. Did you have any white members of

1076
01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:30.180 A:middle L:90%
the Church of the Good Shepherd? Do you have

1077
01:12:30.189 --> 01:12:35.329 A:middle L:90%
people? Directors always had what there was. Yeah

1078
01:12:35.340 --> 01:12:39.500 A:middle L:90%
, that. Do you recall any other visitors from

1079
01:12:39.500 --> 01:12:42.020 A:middle L:90%
ST Paul's or from any of the other churches?

1080
01:12:43.550 --> 01:12:45.729 A:middle L:90%
The only time I recall any visitors coming was like

1081
01:12:45.739 --> 01:12:50.970 A:middle L:90%
when we didn't have mm black man and that someone

1082
01:12:51.449 --> 01:12:56.770 A:middle L:90%
some mad with Eric the service a bigger what happen

1083
01:12:57.550 --> 01:13:01.000 A:middle L:90%
? Fair. Whenever we didn't have any. And

1084
01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:03.569 A:middle L:90%
sometimes their wife would come, but most of the

1085
01:13:03.579 --> 01:13:08.470 A:middle L:90%
times they would come back. Yeah, one of

1086
01:13:08.470 --> 01:13:12.739 A:middle L:90%
the guys. That good chef loved the church,

1087
01:13:12.739 --> 01:13:14.899 A:middle L:90%
and he was one who stayed in. Bishop Robbins

1088
01:13:14.899 --> 01:13:17.420 A:middle L:90%
has my husband ended up becoming an Episcopal priest?

1089
01:13:17.420 --> 01:13:25.130 A:middle L:90%
Policy. It is white American, African American.

1090
01:13:25.130 --> 01:13:32.229 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. You don't remember him? His wife went

1091
01:13:32.229 --> 01:13:36.760 A:middle L:90%
to school with me. Duke, Maybe Duke.

1092
01:13:38.649 --> 01:13:42.930 A:middle L:90%
Duke Harris to Duke. Harrison became He was a

1093
01:13:42.930 --> 01:13:45.109 A:middle L:90%
member of the, uh, church and a good

1094
01:13:45.109 --> 01:13:46.739 A:middle L:90%
shop. And he was one of those who went

1095
01:13:46.750 --> 01:13:49.460 A:middle L:90%
with my husband to a lot of the meetings,

1096
01:13:49.460 --> 01:13:53.409 A:middle L:90%
and and they both all all of them went,

1097
01:13:53.409 --> 01:13:57.439 A:middle L:90%
stated Bishop Marmion's house, and he became an Episcopal

1098
01:13:57.439 --> 01:13:59.579 A:middle L:90%
priest. After that, he was a teacher.

1099
01:13:59.750 --> 01:14:01.539 A:middle L:90%
And I think he's the reason that I attended ST

1100
01:14:01.539 --> 01:14:04.979 A:middle L:90%
Paul's college because he ended up being a priest in

1101
01:14:04.979 --> 01:14:25.159 A:middle L:90%
Southern Virginia. Yes. Okay. And he he

1102
01:14:25.159 --> 01:14:28.460 A:middle L:90%
married some What do you know the person he married

1103
01:14:30.039 --> 01:14:31.060 A:middle L:90%
? I can't recall that story that I'll come up

1104
01:14:31.069 --> 01:14:33.260 A:middle L:90%
with it. Um, that's what do they call

1105
01:14:33.260 --> 01:14:38.590 A:middle L:90%
a senior moment? All right, um, so

1106
01:14:38.600 --> 01:14:40.979 A:middle L:90%
I've kept you too long, and I apologize,

1107
01:14:40.989 --> 01:14:45.220 A:middle L:90%
but I may have followed questions. Uh, we

1108
01:14:45.220 --> 01:14:46.630 A:middle L:90%
may want to do this again. Um, you

1109
01:14:46.630 --> 01:14:49.699 A:middle L:90%
all have been lovely. Just perfect. And thank

1110
01:14:49.699 --> 01:14:51.989 A:middle L:90%
you so much for your stories. I really appreciate

1111
01:14:51.989 --> 01:14:56.869 A:middle L:90%
it. Um, any final comments before I stopped

1112
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:00.229 A:middle L:90%
the video and you look great. You look fabulous

1113
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:04.310 A:middle L:90%
. Yes. You look fabulous. Well, did

1114
01:15:04.310 --> 01:15:06.260 A:middle L:90%
you want to follow up with any of them?

1115
01:15:06.640 -->  A:middle L:90%
Ah.