WEBVTT 00:05.360 --> 00:12.240 Okay um hello everybody! Everybody can hear me? I'm  Maria Elisa Christie, Director of women and gender in   00:12.240 --> 00:17.120 international development at CIRED, the center for  international research, education, and development   00:17.120 --> 00:22.480 at Virginia Tech. Welcome to our virtual women  and gender in development discussion series   00:23.280 --> 00:28.720 and we're so happy you could all join us. We had  57 people registered just a little bit ago and   00:30.400 --> 00:36.880 people keep joining now so I hope we get a big  group um diverse group. So please notice that   00:36.880 --> 00:41.280 as the PowerPoint was saying this event  will be recorded so by staying on you're   00:41.280 --> 00:44.640 consenting to being recorded and if you  don't want your image recorded you can just   00:45.360 --> 00:52.560 you know turn off your camera um on your  zoom. So before introducing our speakers I'd   00:52.560 --> 00:57.840 like to read our land and labor acknowledge  acknowledgement statement for Virginia Tech   00:58.640 --> 01:04.000 which is expanded quite a bit from when we started  uh reading this several years ago it's a lot more   01:04.720 --> 01:10.160 actual information. So Virginia Tech acknowledges  that we live and work on the Tutelo/Monacan   01:10.160 --> 01:16.560 people's homeland and we recognize their continued  relationships with their lands and waterways.   01:17.200 --> 01:22.480 We further acknowledge that legislation and practices like the Morrill Act (1862) 01:24.560 --> 01:30.000 enabled the commonwealth of Virginia to finance and found Virginia Tech through the forced removal 01:30.000 --> 01:35.360 of Native Nations from their lands, both locally and in western territories. We understand that 01:35.360 --> 01:40.320 honoring native peoples without explicit material  commitments falls short of our institutional   01:40.320 --> 01:45.840 responsibilities. Through sustained, transparent, and meaningful engagement with the Tutelo / Monacan 01:45.840 --> 01:51.520 Peoples, and other Native Nations, we commit to changing the trajectory of Virginia Tech's history 01:51.520 --> 01:58.480 by increasing indigenous students staff and  faculty recruitment and retention, diversifying   01:58.480 --> 02:03.200 course offerings and meeting the growing  needs of all Virginia tribes and supporting   02:03.200 --> 02:10.160 their sovereignty. We also recognize that enslaved  black people generated revenue and resources used   02:10.160 --> 02:17.920 to establish Virginia Tech and were prohibited  from attending until 1953. Through inclusive VT,  02:18.560 --> 02:24.240 the institutional and individual commitment to Ut  Prosim, that I may serve in the spirit of community   02:24.240 --> 02:29.920 diversity and excellence we commit to advancing  a more diverse, equitable, and inclusive community. 02:33.680 --> 02:38.160 So the full calendar and any updates for  this year's discussion series can be seen   02:38.160 --> 02:43.920 on our website you can also ask to be on our  listserv and uh you'll get updates on that so   02:43.920 --> 02:48.240 um some housekeeping this discussion  will last approximately 40 minutes   02:48.240 --> 02:53.120 um the speaker's presentations actually it's going  to be more as Jess was telling me more like a   02:53.120 --> 02:58.480 fireside chat so it's not exactly a presentation  it's going to be a discussion between Jess and   02:58.480 --> 03:04.960 Daniel but anyway it's approximately 20 minutes  followed by about 20 minutes of discussion open   03:04.960 --> 03:11.120 to everyone and the Q/A session. All dialing  participants will be muted to enable the speakers   03:11.120 --> 03:16.240 to present without interruption. You're welcome  to post questions anytime that you would like   03:16.240 --> 03:24.880 to ask in the chat box um and if we have time  and and we're tracking those and then I will   03:24.880 --> 03:30.480 give a chance, I will ask either I will read those  questions and then at the end I will open them   03:30.480 --> 03:36.800 let people raise their hand to actually speak  um to this to the presenters directly so   03:36.800 --> 03:41.040 um yeah then I would ask you to unmute  yourself and you can speak to them directly.   03:41.040 --> 03:46.080 So in order for a discussion to be as rich  as it may be as it can be we need everyone   03:46.080 --> 03:52.000 to be respectful and treat all participants with  kindness and consideration without discriminatory   03:52.000 --> 03:57.680 behavior and again the webinar is being recorded  and you will have access to it via our website   03:57.680 --> 04:02.800 takes us sometimes even two weeks to get that  to get that up there um and it'll be added to   04:02.800 --> 04:08.000 the Virginia Tech library, So it'll be permanent  access there and then also if you would answer   04:08.000 --> 04:16.480 the survey at the end um that would be great  very helpful to us. So oh my gosh let's see 04:19.760 --> 04:23.440 sorry so now I have to introduce  speakers where did that page go?   04:24.720 --> 04:30.560 Okay we have two amazing speakers who I know  well and I have to say I have to say this it   04:30.560 --> 04:36.880 is bittersweet that you are not sitting in this  building right now because I miss you so so much!   04:36.880 --> 04:43.280 Okay got that off my chest now Daniel Sumner  is an Associate Director of gender and youth   04:43.280 --> 04:49.360 at ACDI/VOCA. Prior to joining ACDI/VOCA, he  worked with us for five years as Assistant   04:49.360 --> 04:56.000 Director of women and gender in international  development um here at CIRED. um Daniel has 10   04:56.000 --> 05:02.240 years of experience implementing capacity building  research and evaluation interventions in the areas   05:02.240 --> 05:08.640 of gender equality, gender responsive agricultural  research, inclusive agricultural development,   05:09.760 --> 05:16.560 positive youth development and inclusive education.  His current research focuses on exploring how   05:16.560 --> 05:22.000 gender and social norms shape the design and  dissemination of agricultural innovations.   05:22.960 --> 05:27.920 Dr Jessica Agnew is the Associate Director at  the College of agriculture and life sciences   05:27.920 --> 05:33.280 global programs of Virginia Tech uh  Dr Agnew has also been with CIRED   05:33.920 --> 05:39.040 had been with CIRED since 2018 as a graduate  assistant and then as the assistant director of   05:39.040 --> 05:44.960 research operations and program management until  this month when she started her new position at   05:44.960 --> 05:52.320 CALS global. Congratulations to both of you and  wishing you the best in your continued careers   05:52.320 --> 05:59.440 um she has nearly 20 years not 20 she's not  that old, 10 years of experience working in   05:59.440 --> 06:04.000 market-based approaches to nutrition and  food security in an international context.   06:04.720 --> 06:10.560 Her current research focuses on strengthening  value chains for indigenous vegetables and   06:10.560 --> 06:16.960 creating agriculture sector transformation using  blockchain technology and complementary strategies   06:16.960 --> 06:23.280 in Kenya. So the title of their discussion today  is women's smartphones and leafy vegetables: how   06:23.280 --> 06:29.840 ICTs support women producers in western Kenya to  secure their position in commercializing value   06:29.840 --> 06:37.040 chains for indigenous vegetables. So please  welcome Daniel summer and Dr. Jessica Agnew! 06:39.520 --> 06:44.400 Thank you so much thank you for that warm  introduction and thank you all so much for   06:44.400 --> 06:52.640 your interest in this fireside chat style format  of presentation that we'll give today we're doing   06:52.640 --> 06:57.680 it this way instead of a more you know formal  presentation because we really wanted to give   06:57.680 --> 07:03.440 honor to the voices that we've heard throughout  this project and what women have shared with us   07:03.440 --> 07:09.520 um throughout our experience. So Daniel and I have  been working together since 20 well for a while   07:09.520 --> 07:16.080 but on this project particular since 2020  and a larger research team that also includes   07:16.080 --> 07:22.160 Dr Ralph Hall who I don't think was able to be  here today as well as Egerton university that's   07:22.160 --> 07:29.520 located in Njoro, Kenya, and ag unity which is  an Australian tech startup that has developed a   07:29.520 --> 07:37.040 smartphone application that runs on blockchain  technology. So we entitled our talk how ICTs um   07:37.040 --> 07:42.480 contribute to women uh securing their place  and commercializing value chains because it's   07:42.480 --> 07:49.920 not just blockchain that has contributed to their  improve the improvements and their participation   07:49.920 --> 07:55.360 in indigenous value chains but this the phones  themselves access to internet access to WhatsApp   07:55.360 --> 08:01.200 so we wanted to be a little bit more broad but  before we get started in our chat I just wanted to   08:01.200 --> 08:08.240 give you a little bit of background on the project  so um I think uh Lumbini emailed you all a video   08:08.240 --> 08:15.280 yesterday that documents more about our project  but this project was really trying to understand   08:15.280 --> 08:21.680 if blockchain technology could help contribute  to improvements in food security by strengthening   08:21.680 --> 08:26.400 these really amazing value chains for indigenous  vegetables. So we're talking about indigenous   08:26.400 --> 08:34.320 vegetables we focus specifically on leafy greens  of amaranth, cow peas let us see if I can remember   08:34.320 --> 08:41.120 all of them Ethiopian kale, spider plant, and jute  mallow. So these are vegetables that are indigenous   08:41.120 --> 08:47.920 to Kenya rather than sort of the more exotic  vegetables like cabbage or lettuce and so they   08:47.920 --> 08:53.200 have a really important cultural significance as  well as nutritional. They have amazing medicinal   08:53.200 --> 08:59.120 benefits and nutritional benefits as well but  they're also a female owned crop meaning they're   08:59.120 --> 09:06.560 largely produced and marketed by women whereas  they're largely traded by men so traders are those   09:06.560 --> 09:12.160 who buy from producers and sell to retailers  so there's very interesting gender dynamics   09:12.160 --> 09:17.600 happening in these value chains and we wanted to  understand in addition to creating improvements   09:17.600 --> 09:24.560 in food security could access to technology like  smartphones and blockchain and this smartphone app   09:24.560 --> 09:31.360 that ag unity had developed could um this help to  secure the place of women in value chains that are   09:31.360 --> 09:38.080 increasingly becoming commercialized. So they're  becoming they're selling more volume of produce at   09:38.080 --> 09:44.000 higher prices to different types of buyers  not just uh households but due processors   09:44.000 --> 09:48.800 and supermarkets so typically and we'll talk  a little bit about this what might happen   09:48.800 --> 09:55.040 in a commercializing value chain is that men's  participation would become higher displacing women   09:55.040 --> 10:00.880 from positions that they have traditionally held  so we really wanted to to know more about this   10:00.880 --> 10:06.160 through this project so before we without  further ado I'm going to introduce Daniel   10:06.160 --> 10:12.000 um and let him do some talking for a moment but  I wanted to just show you a little bit about what   10:12.000 --> 10:18.080 the blockchain is that we're talking about um I  really want to emphasize we are not talking about   10:18.080 --> 10:23.840 cryptocurrencies so in case you think we are  opening up women to the risks of the financial   10:23.840 --> 10:30.640 fluctuations of the crypto market, we are not  doing that um so this picture uh summarizes   10:30.640 --> 10:36.080 how the ag unity app works and what blockchain is.  I think it's a bit of an elusive concept for some   10:36.720 --> 10:42.960 so essentially what would happen if I wanted  to sell my vegetables to Daniel, I would say   10:42.960 --> 10:49.120 how much I wanted to sell maybe 50 kilograms  of vegetables for say a thousand shillings   10:49.840 --> 10:57.440 and so he would accept that price or reject it but  let's just say he accepts it so he clicks on his   10:57.440 --> 11:02.560 phone that he has accepted it that green check  mark then it's sent back to me where I see that   11:02.560 --> 11:07.520 he's accepted it and I confirm that this is the  transaction the price and the quantity that we've   11:07.520 --> 11:13.840 agreed on and I click the green check mark in my  phone then on the back end behind where nobody   11:13.840 --> 11:19.120 else can see so even though it's blockchain the  people using it don't necessarily see all of the   11:19.120 --> 11:25.280 behind the scenes coding and block-izing I guess  you could say of the data so these transaction   11:25.280 --> 11:31.120 details are then registered as a a block of  information and this block is broadcasted   11:31.120 --> 11:37.440 to a variety of people in a network so people  can verify that this transaction is true and it   11:37.440 --> 11:42.560 happened and this is the value of blockchain if in  case you're wondering why everybody's so excited   11:42.560 --> 11:48.800 about it many people have copies of these ledgers  and copies of the transactions that are occurring   11:49.840 --> 11:55.040 so then these uh this is then validated by those  in the network and then it's added to previous   11:55.040 --> 12:00.960 blocks of information which is where you get the  chain from so I'm not a techie and um that's the   12:00.960 --> 12:06.000 best explanation in a short amount of time I  can give on the blockchain so I hope that helps   12:06.000 --> 12:13.360 um to to clarify for you all but I just want to  turn it over to Daniel and I was just wondering   12:13.360 --> 12:18.240 if you could just talk to us a little bit about  what you were thinking when we first started   12:18.240 --> 12:23.120 this project so we started with a value  chain analysis we really wanted to understand   12:23.120 --> 12:29.680 the context what what the main points were in  the value chain what were you thinking about um   12:29.680 --> 12:33.920 in terms of how we should have designed  that process from a gendered perspective? 12:36.160 --> 12:42.800 Yeah no thank you jess and really that formative  value chain analysis was an integral to the design   12:42.800 --> 12:49.520 and development of this activity and the reason  for that being is a product of a richer body of   12:49.520 --> 12:56.640 research and work by practitioners really over  the past decades as many on our call today this   12:56.640 --> 13:01.920 may be aware but agricultural value chain  development and approaches and interventions   13:01.920 --> 13:09.280 have really proliferated in in recent decades as a means of trying to stimulate advance rural   13:09.280 --> 13:16.720 transformation and poverty reduction but again  it's still important to recognize that however if   13:16.720 --> 13:22.160 using agricultural value chain development as a  mechanism to try to stimulate broad-based economic   13:22.160 --> 13:27.200 growth it's also continually challenging  to do that in a way that can that benefit   13:27.200 --> 13:33.120 those who have been at the most the margins  of the value chain or have been excluded from   13:33.120 --> 13:38.240 participation and benefits it's really this that  that analysis is a part of that richer recognition   13:39.440 --> 13:44.160 of understanding of what that means and that comes  from again understanding that your position in the   13:44.160 --> 13:49.200 value chain for the women that we were working  with in western Kenya what might that look like   13:49.200 --> 13:54.240 the potentials for upgrading the potential of  blockchain to help upgrade or or support their   13:54.240 --> 14:00.080 position in that chain and you can kind of think  of upgrading does come with numerous benefits the   14:00.080 --> 14:08.080 potential for farm income additional maybe other  employment income opportunities or in this case   14:08.080 --> 14:13.440 primarily better better prices but again it's  important to recognize that those benefits from   14:13.440 --> 14:17.920 upgrading from taking advantage of opportunities  to upgrade your position the value chain are not   14:18.720 --> 14:24.080 guaranteed and they depend on who you are and how  you enter the value chains and really important to   14:24.080 --> 14:31.280 think of through our value chain analysis needing  that rich cultural and contextual understanding of   14:31.280 --> 14:36.640 the chain because the chain is not a separate  entity that exists apart and separate from   14:37.600 --> 14:42.160 biophysical or sociological landscapes  or conditions and definitely they are   14:42.160 --> 14:47.520 not gender neutral again kind of what we were  wanting this analysis to look through at how   14:48.080 --> 14:54.480 gender and other social categorizations could  shape an individual or individual's ability   14:54.480 --> 14:58.720 to participate in the chain, how they're currently  participating in the chain, where are they located   14:58.720 --> 15:05.360 and how? But also looking at those opportunities  for upgrading and those potential risks rewards   15:05.360 --> 15:11.200 and benefits. So I always like to think of it again  this analysis, our formative analysis was guided by   15:11.200 --> 15:18.240 really just two broad questions: one is looking at  how those gender social norms and power relations   15:18.800 --> 15:25.200 shape participation and engagement in the value  chain but also how efforts to support upgrading in   15:25.200 --> 15:31.920 turn can have an effect on reshaping, renegotiating  those gender and social norms and so really   15:31.920 --> 15:37.760 there's again again a wide a really substantial  body of existing research that is examined and   15:37.760 --> 15:42.480 looked at these these challenges but there is  that research that has documented and shown that   15:43.840 --> 15:48.400 uh women producers and women entrepreneurs in the value chain can have less   15:48.400 --> 15:52.960 limit, more limited access to resources  information, weaker control over assets   15:52.960 --> 15:59.280 and land and less ability to demand fair prices  but again this analysis was kind of going into   15:59.280 --> 16:02.960 these maybe assumptions that we know  from the literature how do these present   16:02.960 --> 16:08.800 or manifest in the context of Western Kenya within  these African indigenous vegetables value chains   16:08.800 --> 16:13.760 is really using them as a guidepost to  examine and challenge our assumptions as well   16:15.360 --> 16:19.840 and so I guess really launching into  like more about the actual activity   16:19.840 --> 16:24.720 itself just is kind of what do you think were  some of the most interesting findings for you from   16:24.720 --> 16:29.440 that formative value chain analysis in terms of  looking at differences between men's and women's   16:29.440 --> 16:36.080 experience or other gender different differences  that exist in the production and marketing of AIVs.  16:36.080 --> 16:41.760 Yeah so ag unity actually had a really interesting  process that they usually use when starting in a   16:41.760 --> 16:47.840 community that's really human-centered design and  what was exciting about bringing on your expertise   16:47.840 --> 16:55.600 Daniel is just really trying to like you said  understand how the gendered norms affect what   16:55.600 --> 17:01.680 they were looking at so what they would do is  find out about hopes and fears and perceive   17:01.680 --> 17:08.320 negative trends and positive trends and so we  conducted these focus groups with men and women   17:08.320 --> 17:14.160 differently and what was really interesting what  emerged and I'll just share here um this with you   17:14.960 --> 17:20.800 that there are similarities in perceived negative  trends and then each both men and women have   17:20.800 --> 17:27.200 different perceptions of what of negative trends  even though they're both farming the same crop. So   17:27.760 --> 17:33.040 lack of information and fluctuations in price  was something that both men and women are   17:33.040 --> 17:40.560 really frustrated by in in producing and selling  AIVs whereas women are perceiving that they have   17:40.560 --> 17:46.080 access so they're able to you know access seeds,  they're able to produce vegetables, they're able to   17:46.080 --> 17:51.440 sell in the market but they lack control  and there's this limited decision-making   17:51.440 --> 17:57.200 ability for them when they when they are  engaging in the production and sale of AIVs   17:58.240 --> 18:03.680 as well as not having having when they say  lack of market it means like not any place to   18:03.680 --> 18:08.880 sell the vegetables so they may be able to sell  vegetables if there are people willing to buy   18:08.880 --> 18:13.840 but they really struggle to find those buyers  whereas this was not really a trend that was   18:14.560 --> 18:20.960 that men focused on. Men were focused more on  you know the financing piece needing to access   18:21.840 --> 18:26.080 loans and collateral and then needing  access to training and information   18:26.800 --> 18:30.960 and then going back to women you see that  they perceive that some failed to pay the   18:30.960 --> 18:36.720 agreed upon price but that wasn't really  as a perceived negative trend uh by men   18:38.080 --> 18:43.440 uh looking at positive trends we want to  really also focus on exemplifying the positive.   18:43.440 --> 18:47.600 It's interesting you can see on the right  hand side here that men perceive it as a   18:47.600 --> 18:54.000 very positive trend that more men are getting  involved in AIVs um so this actually really does   18:54.000 --> 19:00.400 emphasize the importance of this work and trying  to ensure that women can continue to participate   19:00.400 --> 19:08.160 not that men can't um but as long as it's not  displacing women as we as we go along um and so   19:08.160 --> 19:12.240 that and then women you know they talk about  that they're able to they're really focused   19:12.240 --> 19:18.240 on the production and the marketing of these  vegetables but both of course are concerned for   19:18.240 --> 19:24.960 the demand the demand of AIVs and which is African  indigenous vegetables to use the abbreviation   19:25.840 --> 19:31.120 as well as the available the availability  of inputs particularly fertilizers. So you   19:31.120 --> 19:36.240 know there are these common perceptions which  I think is always important to notice and then   19:36.240 --> 19:42.320 where the perspectives are are differing and  men you know they're more oriented um thinking   19:42.320 --> 19:48.640 more towards smartphones and technology and the  as well as you know the financial piece again   19:48.640 --> 19:53.520 subsidies for fertilizers and they're also  interested in sort of what happens after   19:53.520 --> 19:58.480 the vegetables come off the field and value  addition processes like post-harvest drying   20:00.000 --> 20:06.240 so one thing we really focused on in different  trainings was this idea of commonality that   20:06.240 --> 20:12.320 everybody has their own hopes and their own fears  in and they're all trying to provide for someone   20:12.320 --> 20:18.000 and it was really amazing to see how that brought  people together and viewed themselves more as a   20:18.000 --> 20:24.720 team in engaging with the technology. Both men  and women really want access to information   20:25.280 --> 20:29.760 and training and they both want to earn more  income so we had a really exciting training   20:29.760 --> 20:34.720 around this um where people started to realize  their commonalities more than their differences   20:36.080 --> 20:42.160 but there actually is a perception among most  people I'll come back to that one sorry this   20:42.160 --> 20:50.560 is a kind of a big graph here but what you can  see on this second line here is that about 34 of   20:50.560 --> 20:56.960 female producers and 26 percent of male producers  perceive that selling to men and women is the same   20:57.840 --> 21:02.560 other than that there is a perception that  there is difference that deaf men and women   21:02.560 --> 21:07.040 express different concerns that men and women  ask different questions about the products   21:07.600 --> 21:12.880 some of the qualitative information we've received  even though it's a fairly low percentage here   21:12.880 --> 21:19.600 that um reported well especially amongst women  that women are likely to complain or bargain but   21:19.600 --> 21:25.440 more in the informal discussion settings that this  sort of theme came out a lot more that women are   21:25.440 --> 21:30.400 much tougher negotiators even other women were  commenting on it so it is very interesting to   21:30.400 --> 21:36.720 notice that there are these gendered differences  in the way that vegetables are produced all the   21:36.720 --> 21:43.840 way through to being marketed and then there also  is a very clear difference between smartphone   21:43.840 --> 21:49.200 ownership so again uh sort of a big graph here  but let me try to digest it for you so when   21:49.200 --> 21:55.920 you're looking at if uh someone has previously  used a smartphone. 71 percent of female producers   21:55.920 --> 22:02.800 had not whereas 52 percent of male producers  had not so you see a little bit higher of an   22:02.800 --> 22:10.320 interaction with smartphones previously. Only 11  of women participate who participated um in the   22:10.320 --> 22:16.960 quantitative survey had used a phone previously  compared to 24 of men and then if you go all the   22:16.960 --> 22:23.600 way down here to consumers in the very uh right at  the bottom corner, 44 of female consumers currently   22:23.600 --> 22:32.320 own a smartphone compared to 70 of men so there's  also differences here in the gendered um ownership   22:32.320 --> 22:39.600 and engagement with technology and and this really  kind of brings up an important point which is that   22:39.600 --> 22:45.120 from the beginning of this project we wanted to  be mindful as you were talking about what does   22:45.120 --> 22:51.600 introducing technology what impact does it have  on gendered roles um so could you could explain   22:51.600 --> 22:57.200 a little bit about what might what might happen  what's been observed in other contexts um and   22:57.200 --> 23:04.320 and why did why do these types of um projects  have impact on gender norms and relationships 23:06.800 --> 23:11.200 I think from from from a first standpoint  with projects it's understanding   23:11.760 --> 23:16.160 really push and really comprehensive approach  now of this intentionality to understand   23:17.040 --> 23:22.160 how gender and social norms do have this impact  this understanding I like to think that there   23:22.160 --> 23:26.880 is like we this prevailing view that we we  understand this now we are understand the gaps   23:26.880 --> 23:32.000 we understand this this is important to document  this at the design phase and I think especially   23:32.000 --> 23:37.280 so now continuing with the the the promise of  digital technologies which have really emerged as   23:37.840 --> 23:42.080 important for advancing agricultural development  outcomes that they are critical and they are   23:42.080 --> 23:47.200 reshaping the agricultural landscape and  so really through not just like enhancing   23:47.840 --> 23:51.200 maybe the potential for transparency  in these interactions for women   23:51.920 --> 23:59.040 or AIV producers or retailers but the access  to information is really critical and access to   23:59.040 --> 24:04.800 information about beyond just production practices  access to price and really thinking through   24:05.440 --> 24:12.560 that fully but I think it's really important  to think through that there's still this   24:12.560 --> 24:18.160 dispense the technologies are promoted as being  silver bullets at times and really being   24:18.160 --> 24:25.360 intentional and understanding unintended ways how  particularly ICTs can be constrained or controlled   24:25.360 --> 24:31.760 for different individuals, different households  whether it's availability of sim cards minutes uh   24:31.760 --> 24:37.680 challenges looking at how who individual peoples  within the household are talking to so that they   24:37.680 --> 24:45.200 have a lot of potential but also a lot of it can  be a source of unintended um outcomes as well for   24:45.200 --> 24:50.960 household members so really thinking through that  critically in the design of activities like this   24:52.160 --> 24:55.520 and thinking through that intentionally  and I think that's a core aspect   24:56.480 --> 25:03.920 of thinking through that into the project and  I think that's an aspect now too within the   25:03.920 --> 25:08.880 commercialization looking at who loses control and  whose outcome. so I think that's a core component   25:08.880 --> 25:14.320 but moving into not just using beyond the design  phase that is a one-off bit to continually to   25:14.320 --> 25:19.440 integrate those questions on who has access, how  our phones being used into a continual cycle   25:19.440 --> 25:24.240 of learning which the ag unity team through our partners particularly   25:24.240 --> 25:29.360 Jimmy who I will be joined later integrated that  into their constant reflection and engagement with   25:29.920 --> 25:33.600 um the AIV producer groups that  were engaging on this activity.   25:35.520 --> 25:40.240 Yeah so I mean to that end I think it you know  what you said about the iterative learning   25:40.880 --> 25:47.600 is really important as well as in the initial  design phase so thinking about um how you know   25:47.600 --> 25:53.120 from this out from the outside having the goal  of securing women in in these commercializing   25:53.120 --> 25:58.960 value chains you did a really great training  for Egerton students that we were working with   25:58.960 --> 26:04.640 who participated in a hackathon back in November  so we kind of took them through this process on   26:05.280 --> 26:10.000 human-centered design and how you can incorporate  that thinking from the beginning and you did a   26:10.000 --> 26:15.280 really great training um so on on how  to incorporate gendered considerations   26:15.280 --> 26:19.280 into technology design so could you just  maybe explain a little on the theory or   26:19.280 --> 26:23.840 what you wanted to really communicate  to the students through that process   26:25.360 --> 26:31.760 I think it really is a continual one is the  process that can be challenging for all I think   26:32.720 --> 26:37.200 agricultural researchers, practitioners  throughout the world still is thinking   26:37.200 --> 26:43.520 through at times we're so focused on a  particular maybe management practices, a new   26:44.240 --> 26:49.600 technology any piece of equipment is that  ultimately yes we are designing these for end   26:49.600 --> 26:54.480 users, for farmers, for producers and really  as you said in that human-centered design process   26:54.480 --> 27:01.200 centering their experience but also taking that  one step further with students at times   27:02.160 --> 27:06.080 and thinking through that that's not a uniform  person in the middle that there's different   27:06.080 --> 27:12.960 constraints on how gender, age, socioeconomics  has all these different factors shape who and   27:12.960 --> 27:20.000 how the individuals may or may not benefit from  a technology and that really that importance of   27:20.800 --> 27:26.640 knowing your potential end user knowing the  context and I think for for me in that setting it   27:26.640 --> 27:32.560 was really working with students an opportunity to  for them to reflect back on their own experiences   27:32.560 --> 27:36.880 and understanding how there is a design  their own where they their upbringing   27:36.880 --> 27:41.680 or their own current life to reflect upon that  and make those connections and think through   27:41.680 --> 27:46.560 those unintended, those unintentional biases that  they had in their their thinking to expand their   27:46.560 --> 27:53.280 thinking and really just getting into  that theory and expanding it a little bit more on   27:53.280 --> 27:59.680 who and how they may benefit and also that  again reiterating that process is that   28:00.640 --> 28:06.160 it's iterative, it's not just a one-off going  to the design phase, it's piloting   28:06.160 --> 28:11.520 coming back getting feedback it's it  is a process, it is a continual process   28:12.160 --> 28:18.160 and also looking at again through your technology  how its communicated and just continued to probe   28:18.160 --> 28:22.480 that thinking and spur of reflection for  me was one of the biggest things with that  28:22.480 --> 28:27.920 group of students but then also lastly I think  helping them think through when we think of   28:27.920 --> 28:33.280 looking at the gendered and social dimensions  of agricultural development on a continuum   28:33.920 --> 28:38.880 thinking through approaches that again from an  initial starting point understanding where are   28:38.880 --> 28:44.480 their differences that are being sensitive to  more responsive understanding these differences,   28:44.480 --> 28:50.800 how do we work about addressing them and supporting in the value chain to really being more   28:50.800 --> 28:56.800 critical on how do we look at the root causes of  inequality and maybe more go about transforming   28:56.800 --> 29:01.600 those with dialogues and I think that for me  as it continues exciting to see where students are   29:01.600 --> 29:07.680 their thinking and that they're shifting their  own discussions that they have on renegotiating   29:07.680 --> 29:11.360 gender norms and roles and relations and their  own experience with their peers and how that can   29:11.360 --> 29:16.640 translate how when I saw the students as some  of the ideas they were coming up with messages   29:16.640 --> 29:22.240 that they could integrate into the phones on  helping to you know probe our prime you know more   29:23.120 --> 29:28.320 equitable decision making dynamics, it was really  interesting and inspiring in a lot of ways to see   29:30.080 --> 29:34.800 yeah they it was really neat to see some of  their questions and through the training that   29:34.800 --> 29:40.160 you had done you know and there was a laser pulse  training so laser pulse funded this work they had   29:40.160 --> 29:46.480 a training on gender. So students you know starting  to wonder about what gender role transformation is   29:46.480 --> 29:51.600 versus gender sensitive which is you know  just working within existing gender roles so   29:51.600 --> 29:56.080 yeah just seeing how they're coming up with  these ideas and thinking of ways like what   29:56.080 --> 30:00.160 like is there different ways you need to  communicate information to men versus women   30:00.160 --> 30:04.800 and how can we incorporate that in their app  so it was really great to see their creativity   30:04.800 --> 30:08.240 and how they were responding to what you developed. 30:12.160 --> 30:17.200 Yeah so I think to um my notes here again 30:18.640 --> 30:25.920 is um again okay I guess now that we've  talked a little bit more how we work   30:25.920 --> 30:30.880 to ensure gendered perspectives, our design  implementation do you think a little bit more   30:30.880 --> 30:35.440 about just how we working with the team  we integrated we continually incorporated this   30:35.440 --> 30:42.800 in with the team, the ag unity team in Kenya.  Yeah so I'll start by just giving a bit of a nod   30:42.800 --> 30:50.640 to something that was developed by the laser  pulse team so this it was called the embed they've   30:50.640 --> 30:57.520 developed this model called the embedded research  translation model and so the idea is basically   30:57.520 --> 31:03.200 that you're taking what you learn in the field  and then incorporating it back into field tested   31:03.200 --> 31:09.600 solutions then communicating this information to  practitioners and policy makers and then thinking   31:09.600 --> 31:15.600 about and then back into the private sector so we  had the advantage of working with ag unity in the   31:16.720 --> 31:22.000 work that we were doing so it was really  easy to kind of bring back any findings we had in   31:22.000 --> 31:26.000 into adapting in the app and then  thinking about how this kind of scales   31:26.000 --> 31:33.520 uh to the wider community and  and other potential future projects   31:33.520 --> 31:38.880 um but we did a variety of different things so  one of the concerns from the beginning was that   31:38.880 --> 31:43.600 if women were given a phone their male  spouse would take the phone and use it   31:44.160 --> 31:52.560 for their own you know agricultural production or  their own um use so ag unity's onboarding process   31:52.560 --> 31:58.720 actually helps to address this because each of  the apps is specifically assigned to the user   31:59.440 --> 32:06.720 um so it's not a general uh sort of login that in  order to log in you have to have had your identity   32:06.720 --> 32:13.920 verified and um to create a unique pin so um there  were some challenges with that like forgetting   32:13.920 --> 32:19.200 pins and things like that but what it meant was  that um each person using the app was able to   32:19.200 --> 32:23.760 use it for themselves, there wasn't this sharing  which also helped us to generate you know unique   32:23.760 --> 32:32.640 insights into how each person was using uh was  using the phone and the ag unity app um we also   32:32.640 --> 32:39.760 of course work to ensure equal representation of  male and female producers traders and retailers so   32:40.400 --> 32:45.040 certainly when we're talking about um gender  role transformation we don't want it to seem   32:45.040 --> 32:52.400 like men have no place in um in agriculture or in  roles they've traditionally had so men are often   32:52.400 --> 32:58.800 traders and we didn't want to you know disrupt  these gendered based roles but wanted to just   32:58.800 --> 33:05.200 focus on the fact that every person can engage  equally and in the roles that they've already   33:05.200 --> 33:12.240 had so we've uh we really tried to capture that in  how we recruited to um to participate in the study   33:13.440 --> 33:20.480 and we also really focused on joint training  in cooperation and collaboration so rather   33:21.120 --> 33:27.680 um you know conducting trainings for women  and focusing on female empowerment and to men   33:27.680 --> 33:31.520 on respecting women's participation  based on what we were hearing   33:31.520 --> 33:37.040 from the different focus groups um and how they  interact with one another, we focused more on   33:37.040 --> 33:43.280 the sort of team environment and a collaborative  spirit recognizing that both men and women have   33:43.280 --> 33:47.920 something to contribute and each have their own  knowledge and like I mentioned at the beginning   33:47.920 --> 33:51.600 each have their own goals and often  those goals are common. We had this   33:51.600 --> 33:56.960 really beautiful moment where um you know I asked  so if you're here today because you're trying to   33:56.960 --> 34:02.400 earn more money to take care of your family or  a loved one please stand up and everybody stood   34:02.400 --> 34:07.440 and everybody's face changed after that. It  was just this realization of we're   34:07.440 --> 34:12.000 we're not all trying to make money because we're  greedy or I'm trying to steal from you we're all   34:12.000 --> 34:18.560 trying to care of other people, for other people  and so when when there was this realization I   34:18.560 --> 34:24.160 don't know there was this moment of understanding  of not displacing people from the value chain of   34:24.160 --> 34:30.160 allowing everybody to participate and engage um  in the way that they want to and how as innovators   34:30.160 --> 34:36.160 that could be a really exciting thing and how  working as a team would really accomplish that   34:37.200 --> 34:44.640 um and then we also really wanted to  focus on engaging women as ag champions so   34:44.640 --> 34:50.320 ag unity is this Australian company and are still  in a startup phase and so they don't have on the   34:50.320 --> 34:55.520 ground you know field officers so we thought who  can really be these champions in the field who   34:55.520 --> 35:03.600 might have a deeper understanding of um of the  technology or how to use it and so we actually   35:03.600 --> 35:10.400 worked within each community to have them nominate  an an ag champion and really tried to encourage   35:10.400 --> 35:16.560 female leadership in these uh in these roles  which we were able to accomplish which was amazing   35:16.560 --> 35:23.760 and seeing being able to see that there's also  opportunities to move on beyond just producing uh   35:23.760 --> 35:28.240 indigenous vegetables that there's opportunities  for advancement even within local communities   35:28.240 --> 35:33.920 as you step into leadership roles and organizing  community members so that women can actually grow   35:33.920 --> 35:40.800 with the commercializing value chains in their  role and we really tried to example and 35:40.800 --> 35:48.400 modify exemplify this. So ag unity actually  hired a field officer, a local field officer   35:49.360 --> 35:54.800 who was a woman to demonstrate the value of  female leadership in agriculture and tech   35:54.800 --> 36:00.080 and we also had ag unity uh one of their  developers came to the field who was a woman   36:00.800 --> 36:06.480 as well and I think having those new types of  reference models of things that you can aspire   36:06.480 --> 36:13.440 and grow into um we understood from the women  who are participating was a really um important   36:13.440 --> 36:21.360 and valuable experience for understanding how they  grow as the value chains grow as well. So I always   36:21.360 --> 36:26.640 like to you know pause and reflect there's all  in my opinion there's always an opportunity to   36:26.640 --> 36:31.520 do better so I guess I'd just I'd throw this  back to you Daniel and say yeah what could we   36:31.520 --> 36:36.560 have done better. So ag unity has this out of the  box application so we're already kind of working   36:36.560 --> 36:41.920 from a platform that existed but do you think  there's anything better that we could have done   36:41.920 --> 36:49.040 um to really um consider the gendered perspectives  or I'm thinking about how women really secure   36:49.040 --> 36:53.840 their place in the value chain for indigenous  vegetables as they continue to grow? 36:56.480 --> 37:02.720 Yeah I think no learning from the experience with ag unity and some of   37:02.720 --> 37:08.080 their previous work that they've done with  um cooperatives with coffee production in Ethiopia,   37:08.080 --> 37:13.360 I think one area not to foreground to later  in the discussion is more about how engagement   37:13.360 --> 37:19.040 with forming groups and supporting group in that  decision-making process and what that looks like   37:19.040 --> 37:26.240 and organizing groups in a way to um the decision making their engagement looking at   37:26.240 --> 37:30.800 that a little bit more critically to support  and facilitate some of those tensions I know   37:30.800 --> 37:36.240 that arose during the activity, how to manage  conflict within the groups, I think one   37:36.240 --> 37:41.200 area to support that but also thinking through  a little bit more clearly, a little bit more the   37:41.200 --> 37:46.640 intentional coaching that is needed  and to require to support all participants with   37:46.640 --> 37:51.760 utilizing the app and the phone, the additional  coaching support that is needed with   37:51.760 --> 37:57.840 understanding unfamiliar technology at the  beginning and then lastly I think being a maybe   37:59.600 --> 38:04.000 a little more intentional at the beginning  from the household approach that emerged   38:04.000 --> 38:09.040 through the interaction of the activity and having  some again some targeted engagement with men   38:09.040 --> 38:13.840 at the beginning outside the project, what it would  have supported and facilitated um the household   38:13.840 --> 38:20.240 farming as a business approach that was ended  up emerging and and guided our implementation   38:20.240 --> 38:24.400 throughout the rest of the activity or things  that immediately come to the forefront of my mind. 38:26.480 --> 38:31.840 Yeah that all makes a lot of sense. Jess and Daniel  I'm being the time keeper now it's 2:09  38:32.400 --> 38:36.080 and we have five questions including  one of them which is mine so   38:37.440 --> 38:42.080 that's the least important one um but I wanted to  give a chance to go ahead and ask these questions   38:42.080 --> 38:45.840 and then see if there was you know people who  wanted to participate in discussion. So do you   38:45.840 --> 38:51.840 want to wrap up before we do that yeah can um  can I ask a favor? I was we were going to have   38:51.840 --> 38:57.360 um one of our women because I don't like to talk  about people when they can speak for themselves   38:57.360 --> 39:02.160 um so we're going to have one of our the women  that we've worked with who runs a community-based   39:02.160 --> 39:07.280 organization um just share her experience  as a woman what it was like to participate.   39:07.280 --> 39:11.680 She's just having trouble getting on zoom so I  might just try to call her on WhatsApp, it's a   39:11.680 --> 39:17.120 bit unconventional I know but to see if she can  share on speakerphone um a little bit about her   39:17.120 --> 39:27.840 experience. So if you would just allow me to give  this one shot um she's amazing, her name is Jamima. 39:28.800 --> 39:33.120 We're just ringing here ,hi Jamima, how are you?   39:36.960 --> 39:42.240 all right we're gonna try to see how this  works um so I have you here on zoom I guess   39:42.240 --> 39:50.400 how many participants do we have uh 36 right now  including everybody. 36 participants here so I know   39:50.400 --> 39:56.960 you weren't um able to get on zoom but if you  didn't mind we talked yesterday about if you would   39:56.960 --> 40:03.840 be willing to just share from your personal  experience how the ag unity app and participating   40:03.840 --> 40:09.200 in this project helped to make sure that  especially you as a woman but also the   40:09.200 --> 40:15.040 community-based organization new vision that you  run how it has really helped to make sure that   40:15.040 --> 40:22.480 you can remain in the value chain for indigenous  vegetables as more people you know especially men   40:22.480 --> 40:27.600 maybe become interested to get involved with the  production of these vegetables and their marketing. 40:30.720 --> 40:41.040 Thank you Jessica and new vision is very  glad to join the blockchain and in the   40:41.600 --> 40:49.200 commencement of unity coming to us and bringing  us upon it was something that was in is really   40:49.200 --> 40:57.440 encouraging our team most of us had not  known how to use or are able to afford   40:57.440 --> 41:04.320 smartphones. So first of all they introduced  us to technology and the use of smartphone   41:05.360 --> 41:12.080 um in the process of using these smartphones we  have found them very useful on the processes of   41:12.080 --> 41:16.800 buying and selling letter tables because  like unity was able to give us um   41:18.080 --> 41:26.560 funds from to farmers producers to traders like  ambition and then to retainers those who sell   41:26.560 --> 41:35.120 completely to the consumers and in most of the  time that we since received the accounts we   41:35.120 --> 41:43.840 scan our process of buying and selling vegetables.  There are icons on our phones and on the unity app   41:44.640 --> 41:53.520 and they help us can the the process of buying  and selling and payment of dedicatable and we are   41:53.520 --> 42:01.520 glad to have that process because it has enabled  us a lot in so many ways once it has eased power   42:02.880 --> 42:10.160 it has make made the work of our family easier  or at least easier. We can call ourselves on   42:10.160 --> 42:17.280 phones and speak if someone has vegetables or  vegetables I can ask and a farmer can respond   42:18.960 --> 42:29.840 another thing that we would have benefited is if  I paid or did not pay the farmer the phone could 42:35.120 --> 42:38.480 maybe the trader or the retailer  is not going to date the farmer   42:39.120 --> 42:46.480 the farmer has the next bid on her phone to  show if she was paid or was working a third one   42:48.000 --> 42:54.160 in the process of buying and selling vegetables.  Many farmers did not have enough time to make   42:54.160 --> 43:01.680 record, you buy, sell and go wrong only one you have  sold you don't know when they are meeting profit 43:03.760 --> 43:10.880 but still the technology came up the  records on the on the phone can if you   43:10.880 --> 43:14.560 sit down after selling and you're relaxed  and you want to remember what happened   43:15.360 --> 43:22.400 the phone has the records of yourself the  number of kilograms the type of vegetable 43:24.800 --> 43:31.840 and if you have been given money or you've  not been given an hour. So a farmer can tell   43:31.840 --> 43:39.840 from that record whether he or she is making and the record can remain in future. 43:47.600 --> 43:56.880 We are happy that even the energy and unity  are holding our hand to enable us as some   43:56.880 --> 44:03.680 small villagers from the military western king  to be on the international railing of what is   44:03.680 --> 44:12.240 really happening internationally, the processes  of agricultural activity and we are so happy   44:12.240 --> 44:20.800 because we appreciate and uh and love our local  indigenous vegetables for two good reasons: one, 44:26.640 --> 44:34.640 they are also available in every place but we  have been wishing that even other people know   44:34.640 --> 44:41.120 that what we consume is important and if  we can they can hold our hand and eat our food   44:41.680 --> 44:43.360 they can get the good thing 44:48.960 --> 44:55.920 it's not a medicine that when you eat a it's like  a prescription but in the process of eating them   44:55.920 --> 44:59.200 you find that most of the  diseases in one's body are   44:59.200 --> 45:03.840 relinquished from the processes  after eating vegetables 45:06.080 --> 45:12.960 so we are so happy for Jessica and the  movie for coming to us in western Kenya   45:13.520 --> 45:17.840 to enable us and enable us into the international 45:20.800 --> 45:28.560 which is very small but very important for  feeding and for people's health. Thank you so   45:28.560 --> 45:34.240 much Jamima we're just gonna turn it now I think  over to some participants who have some questions.   45:34.240 --> 45:39.760 So I'm just going to leave the phone on and you  can hear um and keep participating or you can go   45:39.760 --> 45:43.920 I know it's late for you there so thank you  so much for sharing your experience with us. 45:51.840 --> 45:58.480 Thank you Jess um we have six questions and Peter  has his hand raised. So I'm gonna if you can try to   45:58.480 --> 46:03.360 and we and we actually only have like 12 minutes  within the you know the 2:30, not a lot of time so   46:04.000 --> 46:10.000 um if we can go through them relatively  quickly so Chris Mundlane asks and I'm   46:10.000 --> 46:16.000 sorry if I say people's names wrong, I will  try uh was there any focus on extreme users   46:16.000 --> 46:23.520 if so what learnings came from them um can  you say what you mean by extreme users Chris? 46:27.440 --> 46:31.520 Yeah sorry this is a question um  just online I was just clarifying   46:31.520 --> 46:39.200 uh with what extreme user meant so see  we got ta unmute you need to unmute yourself Chris 46:45.040 --> 46:51.280 those consuming are they too many or extreme  using in what time not sure we're trying to find   46:51.280 --> 47:00.800 out here give me one second so sorry can you hear  me yeah yes I'm thinking yes go ahead Chris okay   47:00.800 --> 47:06.320 yeah no by extreme user I just meant people that  do things slightly differently maybe they have   47:06.320 --> 47:14.000 um some kind of unique advantage in the market  uh or or even disadvantages but someone who   47:14.000 --> 47:18.640 does things differently that you kind of took a  lesson away from and said ah we can maybe use that   47:18.640 --> 47:24.800 somewhere else I like that kind of like the the  idea of what's it called positive deviant behavior   47:26.080 --> 47:32.160 but in different fields and different  things um no we didn't but I will   47:33.760 --> 47:38.800 we're of course continuing this work and that's a  really good idea and I'm going to look into that   47:38.800 --> 47:46.560 thank you okay the second question is from Jacktone Ogejo. Have you experienced any unintended   47:46.560 --> 47:53.760 consequences of this technology and if so what  are those we did actually okay i'm gonna um turn   47:53.760 --> 48:02.160 um jamima on to this one jamima um can you  just quickly briefly briefly jamima say um   48:02.160 --> 48:08.400 something about uh the conflict that you've had to  mediate as a result of this project between women 48:12.080 --> 48:14.800 the conflict i can say is positive   48:15.600 --> 48:22.800 the men are feeling jealousy to me that is  very positive because some of us like women 48:25.760 --> 48:29.360 and some of the men were not  willing to have their women response   48:30.000 --> 48:36.160 so the conflict between the men and the women  over the phones yes it is there but to me it   48:36.160 --> 48:41.840 is positive because they are now looking  at us like people who are standardized   48:43.120 --> 48:48.720 they used to underrate our work they have now  known that our work is not as low as they imagine   48:50.080 --> 48:58.240 and it has let people give us respect in our  community and it has made the local vegetable   48:58.240 --> 49:03.760 be looked at as an essential commodity not  as they just look at it like a local food   49:04.320 --> 49:09.760 so yes there is a conflict men are feeling  jealousy and they are like others don't want   49:09.760 --> 49:13.840 to give their women their phones to use their  hands to own them because them they don't have   49:13.840 --> 49:18.400 smartphones their women have smartphones and they  want to feel like they're the bosses in the home   49:18.400 --> 49:23.920 so you find some of them are snatching the  response but to me that is very positive because   49:24.640 --> 49:33.520 now it is making a woman have a voice and   is being respected at least yeah that definitely   49:33.520 --> 49:39.280 was one one outcome from conflict but then there  was also some other dynamics right between women   49:39.280 --> 49:44.720 where you were teaching about understanding  and doing some conflict mediation right where   49:44.720 --> 49:51.360 um some women who kind of were positioned  as leaders in the project um you know would   49:51.360 --> 49:56.080 ask for other women to surrender their phones  if they didn't feel like they were using them   49:56.080 --> 50:01.440 well and some interpersonal dynamics that kind  of were escalated because of the project right 50:04.080 --> 50:11.280 the project is being hold with a very  high esteem and some women need as Jessica you   50:11.280 --> 50:17.360 are right they are using that as an opportunity to  make to make themselves look like they are too big   50:17.360 --> 50:22.720 they can just snag this on from this person whom  they think is they hate not not even because the   50:22.720 --> 50:27.360 person has done something wrong but because  they just feel that they have somebody else   50:27.360 --> 50:33.040 like a family member friend or a another person  she wants to make her name to another person   50:33.040 --> 50:37.760 so she wants to snack this phone and they  smack them it's like around three or four   50:38.960 --> 50:43.280 yes that's true they have already  mapped those they want to give   50:43.280 --> 50:49.840 until we intervened and said no they also have  to go to the owners until it is restored and   50:49.840 --> 50:56.240 just uh just to report on that I followed  up and the story was not at the course 50:58.720 --> 51:05.040 it was not as it was just left home to go and see  the brother in Nairobi to give her school fees   51:05.040 --> 51:09.600 for her son and they had talked with the son and  the father because she had been put on the wall   51:09.600 --> 51:14.880 for collection I know people are not giving she  had mental and up and we are all and people are   51:14.880 --> 51:21.840 not contributing so she just left and the family  knew she was growing so the story was just behind 51:26.720 --> 51:32.320 yeah that's good and you did Jamima did a  lot of that so just to summarize I hope you   51:32.320 --> 51:38.640 guys can hear Jamima okay but essentially there  was um yeah this idea where it became like the   51:38.640 --> 51:43.440 phones were like community assets rather  than belonging to the individual and so   51:43.440 --> 51:48.800 the groups would um if they didn't feel somebody  was participating enough would ask for the   51:48.800 --> 51:53.280 phone to be returned to like the community  group which is not how we set it up at all   51:54.080 --> 52:00.320 so that was a very interesting dynamic and  unintended uh con consequence both positive and   52:00.320 --> 52:05.520 negative a lot of really good things came out of  the community organization including registering   52:05.520 --> 52:12.880 as farmer groups and these groups actually pursued  their own training um from other organizations to   52:12.880 --> 52:19.200 help them improve the quality of their vegetables  so yeah anyway that's that's one of them okay um   52:19.200 --> 52:23.360 jess i'm gonna like reorder here we had another  question from chris but we're gonna come back to   52:23.360 --> 52:27.840 that if we have time we have a very broad question  about climate change I'm gonna skip that for now   52:28.560 --> 52:32.960 my question I'm gonna skip. Larry has a  complicated question and he's in house   52:32.960 --> 52:37.680 I'm gonna wait. Peter Smith has had his hand up  for a long time so I'm gonna ask Peter to unmute   52:37.680 --> 52:43.280 himself and then go to Jen Williamson's  question. So Peter's my grandpa oh 52:45.360 --> 52:47.280 you have to unmute you have to unmute 52:49.600 --> 52:55.680 yes I'm sorry I'm just sitting enjoying and  I don't know how my your hand's gonna raise   52:55.680 --> 53:01.280 my accident all right well nice to see you  yes anyway thank you so much for inviting me   53:01.920 --> 53:06.000 okay thanks for being here um let me  read Jen Williamson at ACDI/VOCA's   53:06.800 --> 53:13.840 question so how are payments disbursed through the  system? Do women need formal bank accounts linked   53:13.840 --> 53:19.440 through the system? Is there any information  about whether this has strengthened increased   53:19.440 --> 53:25.600 women's control over income generated through  the um african indigenous vegetables and have   53:25.600 --> 53:32.880 any risk been identified as commercialization and  profits increase like male takeover conflict etc.?   53:33.920 --> 53:39.520 yeah so right now as it stands the the ag unity  app doesn't actually transact in any currency so   53:39.520 --> 53:47.120 what will happen is two users so a producer and  a trader will scan one another's phones uh when a   53:47.120 --> 53:53.280 price has been agreed upon and a quantity so what  happens is in each person's phone there is the   53:53.280 --> 53:59.600 same record of that transaction and then the cash  is actually transacted outside of that um there is   53:59.600 --> 54:06.480 talk and interest on integrating uh the app with  m-pesa and there's kind of been like mixed opinion   54:06.480 --> 54:11.440 from participants on that some are like yes  integrated with m-pesa that would be amazing   54:11.440 --> 54:17.280 other people like no way don't do that we're happy  to just like do the m-pesa transaction separately   54:17.280 --> 54:23.760 or transact on cash. One thing we actually  learned um was in terms of risk and COVID  54:23.760 --> 54:31.200 actually um m-pesa is in case you don't know  uh this system of financial transaction that's   54:31.200 --> 54:39.280 ubiquitous um in Kenya and uh uh money is sent  via SMS if I understand if I remember correctly   54:39.280 --> 54:46.480 yeah through a text message and so the money is  transacted this way and what you can actually   54:46.480 --> 54:52.800 take a loan from m-pesa but what happens is if you  have a loan with standing and somebody pays you   54:52.800 --> 54:57.920 then it automatically goes back to repaying the  loan and so as you can imagine during COVID this   54:57.920 --> 55:04.880 was not ideal and so people actually really asked  us no we just don't want anything we're just fine   55:04.880 --> 55:10.000 to transact separately so it is important to keep  and that really highlighted for me the risk of   55:10.000 --> 55:15.040 introducing something you know from maybe like a  western perspective would be great everything's   55:15.040 --> 55:19.600 integrated it's all in one app it's efficient  it's you can make the financial payments all   55:19.600 --> 55:25.920 right there but understanding how payments and and  finance work in a different context and how it can   55:25.920 --> 55:30.640 open up people to risk um and I think there was another question 55:32.960 --> 55:38.480 so you don't need a bank account so that's  the one advantage of this you don't need a   55:38.480 --> 55:44.720 bank account and so you can introduce the sort of  formalization of transactions without yet bringing   55:44.720 --> 55:52.080 in the bank account and um in terms of risk yeah  like as we've talked about a little bit um and   55:52.080 --> 55:58.720 Jemima highlighted you know there's the men um  not wanting their wives to have uh the phone and   55:58.720 --> 56:03.840 some conflict happening there and Daniel can you  want to say a little bit about that we talked you   56:03.840 --> 56:08.480 explained to me the concept of like power within  power over could you want to say something   56:08.480 --> 56:14.480 quickly about that? Yeah I think I know I know we  set up from the research perspective to to the   56:14.480 --> 56:18.560 baseline and I know you're still working the team  just on finalizing the final report with the end   56:18.560 --> 56:25.680 line analysis but we did structure in a way trying  to look at um decision-making dynamics adapting um   56:26.400 --> 56:33.360 questions from the images um the gender equality  men scale looking at norms and attitudes around   56:33.360 --> 56:37.920 decision making we restructured those and the  women's empowerment and agriculture index their   56:37.920 --> 56:44.160 decision making modules um I'm not quite sure  we're still so I just need to look at like what   56:44.160 --> 56:48.560 the impact there on the data. I know there were  some of the qualitative findings came out there   56:48.560 --> 56:53.760 there were feeling like some some changes in  that power within for women making that   56:53.760 --> 56:57.840 the decision-making that control and some of  their dynamics. I think this is just another area   56:58.880 --> 57:02.400 continuing this model can continue to be  enhanced with a more intentional farming as   57:02.400 --> 57:08.560 a decision-making approach targeting structure on  that decision-making dynamics. I think one   57:08.560 --> 57:12.640 is one area so they're still looking at that  information and I think that's one area that's   57:12.640 --> 57:17.920 coming over a little bit into the risks  that we identified with um designing some   57:17.920 --> 57:23.040 of those follow-on trainings with some of our um  excellent colleagues from from Eggerton looking at   57:23.040 --> 57:28.800 decision-making dynamics and starting to what does  it look like to facilitate conversations around   57:28.800 --> 57:37.200 that in the household. Okay I need to break  in because it is 2:29, so I would like to just give   57:37.200 --> 57:42.560 a formal close and then ask if Jess and Daniel  if you can stay on 15 more minutes if we were   57:42.560 --> 57:47.200 doing this in person this is where in the library  we'd have people come up and chat with you and   57:47.200 --> 57:52.880 have their bagel and coffee and so um so we do  have a couple more questions um but I do want to   57:52.880 --> 57:59.040 officially close so that people can leave um and  and I do want to say so Lumbini put in the link   57:59.040 --> 58:03.360 to the survey it's very important for us to get  your feedback please we'll also email it to you if   58:04.080 --> 58:09.440 you're registered but please do do the survey  it won't take you very long and I also want to   58:09.440 --> 58:13.360 announce that our next speaker which will  be our special women's month speaker is uh   58:14.080 --> 58:20.080 Dr. Farhana Sultana from Syracuse University.  She's very well known, she's a geographer um   58:20.080 --> 58:25.600 she'll be talking about climate justice gender  and challenges in a fractured world and uh we will   58:25.600 --> 58:30.880 send you if you on the survey you can tell us if  you want to be on our listserv and then you would   58:30.880 --> 58:36.080 get the information about that. um and you could  also just check our website for more information   58:36.080 --> 58:41.200 and I hope you can join us for the next one so  again anybody can just hang up if you would like   58:41.200 --> 58:46.240 to leave now it's now 2:30. um but I appreciate  it if Jess and Daniel if you could say for a few   58:46.240 --> 58:51.840 more minutes can you yes I see Daniel saying  yes yeah okay then I'm gonna I'm gonna read um 58:54.080 --> 58:59.120 Bernard had asked and you addressed some of these  already but I'm gonna read the question would you   58:59.120 --> 59:08.000 please highlight challenges facing implementation  of this project? So many, yeah number one Covid   59:08.000 --> 59:14.640 that was terrible um and I and you know  I think so. I saw another question there   59:14.640 --> 59:21.200 on how Eggerton was involved um so I can  do a two for here so Eggerton was amazing you   59:21.200 --> 59:28.800 know they really led the implementation on this  um my co-pi Joseph Mwangi um he did an incredible   59:28.800 --> 59:35.200 job and I mean he already had a lot of experience  working in indigenous vegetables so we really were   59:35.200 --> 59:43.360 like co-co-pis really in every sense of the word  co-designing the research with vt and ag unity   59:43.360 --> 59:51.200 um I think the other challenge was um just  how wild the uh the indigenous value chain   59:51.200 --> 59:57.280 um is compared to what ag unity was used  to working in so there was some challenges   59:57.280 --> 01:00:04.560 there to figure out how it would all work um  for example uh we introduced a grading system   01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:08.720 through this project so grading  vegetables into grade a and grade b   01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:14.800 and that was challenging to figure out how exactly  that works how do you keep it separate during   01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:20.000 you know in transportation how do you convince  traders that it's worth it to keep it separate   01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.600 um how do you convince retailers to change  the way they're selling the vegetables   01:00:24.160 --> 01:00:29.600 um and and what how do you define grade a  versus grade b how do you enforce it because   01:00:29.600 --> 01:00:36.000 the blockchain will secure information but if you  put bad information in it just secures incorrect   01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:42.800 information so yeah what about you Daniel? any for  you whatever some of the challenges no I think   01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:49.040 I think one again like echoing what you said  jess I think the nature of the value chain was   01:00:49.040 --> 01:00:55.680 was different than I think anticipated coming in  from from ag unity but again the adaptability and   01:00:55.680 --> 01:01:02.800 I think that that adaptability of the the team to  adapt was really a result of the art partnership   01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:07.440 and the relationship that you established with  joseph and the relationship what it looked like   01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:14.160 with edgerton university and the nature of that  relationship i think really positioning both you   01:01:14.160 --> 01:01:20.560 and him and both institutions as equal partners  in this research process was was essential to   01:01:21.120 --> 01:01:26.800 driving that adaptation and and which i think  maybe we think research process doesn't always   01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:30.480 is obtusive to adaptation because if something  changes then you can't maybe make that final   01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:37.120 comparison at the end um I think another challenge  which I really like how you put sometimes with   01:01:37.120 --> 01:01:43.280 really phrased it behavior change and i think  rethinking technology adoption in general it's not   01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:48.960 a simple fact I'm going to use it I'm not going  to use it is it changing a behavior a habit and so   01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:54.400 many habits so many behaviors that maybe needed  to change or be tweaked as a result of using   01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:59.120 the blockchain application was really interesting  and how the continuing to see it in that process   01:01:59.120 --> 01:02:01.920 from the behavior standpoint I think  will be continuing to be interesting   01:02:02.720 --> 01:02:07.680 um I think was another another challenge it's not  just something you you do and you just keep doing   01:02:07.680 --> 01:02:12.000 it. It's just like in all of I think in our own  lives you do something for a little while you   01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:16.720 forget you come back and it's the good intentions  just seeing that we're all humans and those human   01:02:16.720 --> 01:02:22.560 issues of of trust and things in interplay within  how the promotion of technology is like like this   01:02:23.520 --> 01:02:29.520 I will just um just build on that really quickly  and do a plug for public-private partnerships and   01:02:29.520 --> 01:02:37.200 how with ag unity and um edgerton and virginia  tech we landed on something really cool that   01:02:37.200 --> 01:02:43.600 was this iterative research and having partners  that specialize in deep dives into information   01:02:43.600 --> 01:02:48.080 and trying to understand the underlying forces  and then a business that could actually like   01:02:48.080 --> 01:02:53.200 be immediately translating that into something  and we're really excited but there's all this talk   01:02:53.200 --> 01:02:57.200 right now about public engaging with the private  sector I'm not really sure anybody really knows   01:02:57.200 --> 01:03:01.440 what it means um so I think we kind of figured  out a little bit what it means especially for   01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:05.760 a university to engage with the private sector.  So I think we're going to do a cool publication   01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:11.760 on that so keep your eyes out it's it'll come  at some point well actually I'd like to ask um   01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:17.200 the second question Chris had which kind of  addresses this a little bit but specifically how   01:03:17.200 --> 01:03:23.680 did the hackathon complement ag unity and vice  versa? Yeah so the hackathon was really cool so   01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:30.000 from all of the work that we did we realized  essentially if I can wrap up our finding in a   01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:36.320 nutshell in one sentence it would be that it's not  just blockchain but blockchain plus that can help   01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:42.800 improve security and strengthen value chains. So I  will also simultaneously address Sandy's question   01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:49.360 on climate change so what we realized is that  farmers need the record-keeping functionality of   01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:53.600 that's offered through the ag unity app but they  also need access to other things like weather   01:03:53.600 --> 01:03:58.720 information and how those weather patterns are  changing so they can prepare from season to season   01:03:58.720 --> 01:04:03.280 they need access to extension services I think  a couple extension folks are still on the call   01:04:03.280 --> 01:04:08.880 that I was just speaking to before this about  how we can create extension modules that could   01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:15.040 be deployed on the ag unity app that then could  be communicated to the consumer that the farmer   01:04:15.040 --> 01:04:20.720 took a training on climate smart agriculture and  so may inspire more confidence in their product   01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:26.240 and actually generate a return to the producer so  the hackathon was about kind of presenting these   01:04:26.240 --> 01:04:32.080 different ideas these different opportunities  that we saw to the students and then in these   01:04:32.080 --> 01:04:36.880 interdisciplinary teams of agricultural students  and computer science students they were actually   01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:43.040 able to code applets that are deployed on the ag  unity platform. So ag unity's platform is a super   01:04:43.040 --> 01:04:49.760 app so it kind of think of like the play store  so then you can have smaller apps inside this   01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:57.360 bigger app so they were able to develop these  applets so um and because of that we actually   01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:01.440 are working with I think some or ag unity is  working with some of these groups of students   01:05:02.160 --> 01:05:07.920 to further develop those apps that they made  so for example one I actually think you know   01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:13.680 with the work we've done in IPM is called  doodoo free and it's all about integrated   01:05:13.680 --> 01:05:19.600 pest management practices and how to communicate  that to farmers and then farmers basically voting   01:05:19.600 --> 01:05:25.120 on the practices that that work best for them  and so there's this sort of social component   01:05:25.120 --> 01:05:30.640 another one was an online marketing platform  so um that where you could show the different   01:05:30.640 --> 01:05:34.320 stages of your vegetables and the different  practices that you're using along the valley   01:05:35.120 --> 01:05:41.520 throughout the production and then ultimately to  find a seller so the students really like helped   01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:47.200 develop new services for ag unity and ag unity  help them figure out how to code uh uh on their   01:05:47.200 --> 01:05:52.800 platform so we had it was really exciting and  the ICT authority in Kenya is actually really   01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:59.040 interested in developing this out into an actual  like hackathon curriculum where this could be done   01:05:59.040 --> 01:06:04.960 um I've actually I've had Chris in mind who  actually does hackathons um fairly regularly   01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:12.160 and roping him into this so uh it was a really  exciting event. Jess I am going to read it but   01:06:12.160 --> 01:06:15.600 I put Larry's message in there because it's  very long and then we have another one from   01:06:15.600 --> 01:06:20.400 Jen Williamson so let me let me read Larry's, so  there were two treatments he says the blockchain   01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.920 contracts and access to smartphones. You can't  have a blockchain app without the smartphone   01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:33.040 so the independent effect of the smartphone cannot  be separated in this case of relatively trusted   01:06:33.040 --> 01:06:38.640 value chain participants and relatively small  quantities of money being exchanged might you   01:06:38.640 --> 01:06:47.280 have had similar success by uh marking or making  contract agreements with simple text messaging?   01:06:48.240 --> 01:06:54.080 Yes this is a really good question and something  we did think about a lot. We we realized in all   01:06:54.080 --> 01:06:59.840 of this the essential role of whatsapp um and  that's that was huge for a lot of participants   01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:06.160 because they were able to take pictures and send  their produce um to potential buyers and because   01:07:06.160 --> 01:07:11.600 they did this buyers were actually then willing  to come to the to the producer to pick up the   01:07:11.600 --> 01:07:16.640 vegetables whereas sometimes it was the producer  taking the vegetables to this to the buyer because   01:07:16.640 --> 01:07:20.480 they already knew what they were getting how much  they were getting what it already looked like. So   01:07:21.040 --> 01:07:26.720 um we thought do we even need blockchain or do  you just need WhatsApp um but Jamima actually   01:07:26.720 --> 01:07:31.680 shared with me she's like no no no you need the  ag unity app because you don't remember you don't   01:07:31.680 --> 01:07:36.880 remember if like if you agreed to something on  whatsapp and if that's actually what happened   01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:43.280 um you don't remember if you like if you agreed  on the phone and after you already texted it so   01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:48.640 the very nature of how the the app worked and  how it was introduced and how people understand   01:07:48.640 --> 01:07:54.720 how it was part of the whole process really  created that trust in the records that they had   01:07:54.720 --> 01:08:01.600 and um and that's why um they they really want  the ag unity app we did ask them do you want just   01:08:01.600 --> 01:08:06.560 like a high quality phone or do you want a high  quality phone plus ag into the app and hands down   01:08:06.560 --> 01:08:10.960 every single one of them said it's got to be with  the ag unity app so there's still nothing more to   01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:17.040 unpack there about um like what if there's  anything else that's really contributing to   01:08:17.040 --> 01:08:23.600 that trust or that they that they perceive will  add value to their operations but um yeah so I   01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:28.000 think we have I think they're interested in more  than just texts but we definitely did think of   01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:32.880 that. Okay I think this would be the last question  and then uh I would like Jess and Daniel both to   01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:39.600 wrap up so how ex this is from Jen Williamson, how  accessible is the app to low literacy populations?   01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:47.760 Is it visually accessible or text based? um let  me see if I can just like super quick bring up   01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:53.920 something and see if my computer will cooperate so  ag unity actually developed this with low literacy   01:08:53.920 --> 01:09:00.240 in mind it's very visually based it can also be  translated into different languages so this was   01:09:00.240 --> 01:09:09.600 translated into Swahili um and but it's still so  you have both a visual and uh like text so let   01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:21.360 me if you give me one second okay here we go so  I'll just share my screen oops that's not that one   01:09:23.360 --> 01:09:30.400 so you can see here um so the give harvest is when  I am I'm the producer and I'm now giving it to the   01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:38.960 trader so you can see there's the visual here and  I can maybe zoom in even further um so yeah you   01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:44.720 can see the and then the get cash is a hand with  the coins and the shop and goods so this was all   01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:51.200 designed with the idea of low literacy in mind  and then each of these text descriptions of the   01:09:51.200 --> 01:09:59.360 applet so each of these is essentially an applet  that exists within Ag unity's super app is uh   01:10:00.240 --> 01:10:04.800 yeah is so it's an applet and then each of  these are translated into the local language   01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:08.320 and then up here you can see the wallet  and that's where you go to find out   01:10:08.320 --> 01:10:14.240 um uh the value of your transactions and if you  have any payments outstanding that's something we   01:10:14.240 --> 01:10:18.480 didn't really talk about but it's a really  cool feature of this that it allows people   01:10:18.480 --> 01:10:23.120 to collect on their debts or their credits um  because you know how much you have outstanding. 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:32.320 So great thank you so much all for coming and  for hanging in here and um yeah if you I think   01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:37.520 uh maybe through Maria Elisa if you have any  interest in working with us going forward we're   01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:44.160 trying to really develop a research agenda and  future ideas for research and work in Kenya and   01:10:44.160 --> 01:10:49.600 beyond um please feel free to reach out and thank  you to Daniel! We've had a great time as always   01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:54.560 working together and just appreciate everything  you've done for this project and Maria Elisa for   01:10:54.560 --> 01:11:00.720 having us. So thank you all very much thank you  everybody thank you Daniel. Daniel last word from   01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:07.200 you? No I think again just just the from  for me being a part of the research team this   01:11:07.200 --> 01:11:12.720 activity has really highlighted this conversation  what it means more to to kind of think through the   01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:18.800 partnerships and how universities partner with  each other and I think it's a really great model   01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:23.600 moving forward as we continue this conversation  thinking through how different partners are   01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:28.160 engaged not just universities how engaging with  communities working with Jemima's organization what   01:11:28.160 --> 01:11:33.360 we look and what we how we define partnership and  I've just I've just always really appreciated your   01:11:33.360 --> 01:11:37.840 your leadership in that area Jess and kind of  continuing to spur that reflection and thinking   01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:41.920 amongst the broader research  team with with education and ag unity.   01:11:43.280 --> 01:11:48.640 Thank you so much! Great well thank you  so much both of you and um we will stay   01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:52.960 in touch and I hope some of the participants  we still have eight oh 16 now left will join   01:11:52.960 --> 01:12:00.480 us for a future discussion series. So thank you  everybody! Thank you! Take care! Thanks everyone.