WEBVTT

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So, Hans, Um, why don't you tell

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me if you would, about what brought you to

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Virginia? It's one of those really architectural connections I

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was working in. Rock Hill is a city architect

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and model cities planner for physical planning, and our

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local talent couldn't do a lot of the things we

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wanted to do. And so I went to Charlotte

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and Harry, Harry Woolf to come and to a

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senior citizen center. Mhm. And as luck would

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have it, there were at least five Virginia Tech

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graduates working for Harry and Harry had been to take

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. And he knew Olivia into New Gene. And

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he knew Bob all those guys. And so we

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got talking because I was was towards the end of

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the program, I was burning out and I thought

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about going back to school and the choices down there

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where and I don't mean to mention names, but

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the Virginia Tech really looked wonderful, and I wanted

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to actually get into an urban design programs inside my

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architecture degree from Rice. And so we went up

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to attack to look at the urban design program,

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and that suited me. And that's how I ended

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up here. And that was what Year? 74

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. Okay, well, yeah, 74. So

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tell me about what was it about? About a

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tech that really appealed to you? Well, that's

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again a not straightforward answer, because the urban design

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program had very little to do with the architecture program

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. A certain animosity between Frank, Entire and Olivia

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and Frank and I had a lot to offer in

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urban design, but it was a very strange relationship

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. Personal reasons, political reasons, you name it

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, things that are graduate student, even though,

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after entering politics a bit with model cities, isn't

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quite aware of. And they are not really out

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there. And they open what got me into architecture

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. I mean, the program kept me there because

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it was a good urban design program and they treated

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me very well, advanced me really quickly, even

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though it was admitted as a special student, because

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that was out of school for too long. Mhm

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, that what really got me interested then was my

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contact with their architecture part. And then when I

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realized that even though the program was presented to me

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as a professional program, it didn't have a professional

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degree And so my thesis year I spent already in

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architecture. I talked to Birgit about it and he

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said, Well, just moving to architecture. And

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, uh, I did my thesis in the architecture

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program to get the masses of architecture rather than urban

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design. You know, I didn't catch it before

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, but, actually, can we move that clock

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or turn it off? Doesn't take you in the

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background. Yeah, Perfect. Thank you. Not

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a problem. That where nobody will see how long

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the interview took. Mhm. You've got to just

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watch that. Yeah, well, you don't have

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another one. Really? Correct. Got the production

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assistant standing by. Yeah, so was it.

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A lot of people have talked about Mm. The

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pedagogy of the school at that time posted in the

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Burchard Ferrari years being really something special, Um,

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and a sort of unique thing, and certainly unique

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when you think about this school. Nowhere was that

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was that at all part of your This is,

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you know, to come to tech or was that

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may be part of your decision to stay and teach

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. No, not really. When you're a student

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, you don't realize things like pedagogy and all of

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that stuff. You basically look at what you are

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allowed to do and how you supported in that,

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and there's an interesting connection I had no idea of

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. But when I was at race, Miss Evans

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, who taught the foundation he is, there was

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also an acquaintance and friend of the Ferraris from Auburn

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. And the way Miss Evans approached. The first

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year was very similar to what the school did here

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and the foundation years when I came from urban design

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into architecture. We're sort of the elite years.

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That's how it looked to students. And so there

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was a certain familiarity that made me comfortable with it

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. And then there was something much more important and

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that had to do with me. Having been in

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the United States since 1966 at that time and close

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to well, almost 10 years and the pragmatic reliance

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on statistics that the at that time still vary subdued

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dehumanization off architecture as a profession was not present,

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that the level at which I learned to know cool

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and that made me feel at home. The years

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that I've spent in federal and local politics suddenly could

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be set aside and it was that part, which

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I think then one can translate into the pedagogy as

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well as into the lack of a real didactic structure

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that made couples are attractive. And when I say

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real lack of that active structure, the structure was

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not present. It was there, obviously, but

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not obvious when you are a graduate student, but

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obvious in later years when you emerging to it as

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a faculty and it's that that made me I really

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wanted to stay here. The social scene was another

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part between the Greeks and tend to through the through

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the body, who, together with her husband really

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about it, ran pretty much. What was the

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one place of society that Blacksburg had at that time

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was also the place where the whole architecture department would

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crash. And so we met on two levels,

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and we met in a cultural situation that was familiar

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that was open for giving. Mm. We could

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fight. We could scream without being chastised without being

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immediately viewed as a problem, because everybody understood,

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including the American guys like Eggo and Bob and Bill

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Brown and all those guys. This was the way

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human beings interact and it was that possibility of again

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actual non hypocritical, non guarded interaction that made such

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an enormous difference. This is the celery thyme?

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Uh, no, no, no. That's a

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private house. Okay, that's a private house.

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Doctor bodies house down on the prices Fork road.

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It was sort of a social center for the college

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. And I got into it because of my dog

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. Not because of my being a graduate student in

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urban design that vaso telephones head. She was a

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colleague of mine in urban design, and she had

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to shut German shepherds and I had one, and

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we had to get them together and truly had two

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German shepherds. This book, this is how we

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met. And that's how, actually socially got into

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the architecture. See? Mm. And those are

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accidents. You cannot plan. You cannot repeat.

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You can't do anything with, but those are realities

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. Those are facts. And they are a major

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part of the history of the school. Well,

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I grew up in a small college town very similar

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, and it seems to me like in an environment

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like this, you're that much more likely to get

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together with colleagues and to have you know raucous debate

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. And is that part of the appeal? What

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can you speak? Well, um, you see

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, I have to disagree with you because socially,

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the interaction in a university like Blacksburg is very limited

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. It's highly exclusive, highly aligned according to political

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linage. According to political preferences, there is no

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discourse. There is only polite blathering. And the

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reality of through this house was there was discourse.

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And that is something that, being European, you'll

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learn to miss after a while in the US and

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it was there and it continued in cocoa while it

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was possible. I don't know how much we want

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to go down that road. Just I mean,

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I'm very interested in this, but let's talk about

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it a little bit and see where it goes.

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I'm really curious about, you know, I keep

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hearing all these stories and of course, everyone romanticizes

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the past to a certain degree. But it does

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seem to me like something has changed. Yeah,

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even from when I was here in 95 Um,

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without because I'd like to use this. So without

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you get where my dilemma with us can you speak

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to the program? How the program was when you

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found it and what was attractive to you about that

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. And maybe where that has changed for the better

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. Not for them. That's not. That's not

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easy to answer, not because the question is,

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you know, right, because I'm worried about the

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answer. Those things are very hard to design because

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a lot depends on how better or not better is

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defined by how does it actually serve architecture? The

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education of architect when it came and this was one

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of birch, it's great achievements. The school.

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Elizabeth, Can you get the dog downstairs again?

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Happy. Mhm, Mhm, Mhm. He's gnawing

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on his bone and it's really audible right here,

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right at the right place. He wants to be

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part of the interview. He had heard me mention

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Leo and therefore downstairs. Hey, dummy. Now

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answer. Mm. I'm sorry. That's good.

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Anyway, uh, does my knee show no,

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period? Good. Okay, because I'm not presented

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from here. Mhm, uh, sometimes does not

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have cancer. Where was I? It's a hard

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question to answer how it affects you see, purchase

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. Great achievement in that sense was that he understood

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that the schools need to create new generations of architects

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and not literate employees for office to continue the status

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quo. The schools were not servicing the profession,

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the schools where building students towards the right of passage

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of making the architects of today the architects of yesterday

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. That's where the big change up and the big

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change happened not because of kogel changing, because of

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the American University changing, because the American University becoming

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an administrative ridden and administrative controlled issue of big business

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and the more money you need for God knows what

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bigger administrations, I guess the more money you've got

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to raise and how do you raise money, like

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how towering to the wishes of the alumni and most

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alumni, as we all know, are not The

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star connects. There are people who want to have

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a good, solid workers, and that's where the

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change comes from. It's a national problem. It's

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not a local problem. Kogel and Virginia Tech is

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actually way behind the curve on it, and that's

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part because of the resistance of the faculty and part

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because if we have a resistant administration, you know

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, we bitch about them. But they're slow in

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accepting all the nonsense that comes from the outside.

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And so you know, this is where the major

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change occurred that then going along with that all of

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the insanity ease of in favor of affirmative action and

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the morphing into what's it called now about their sustainability

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. But that's another question. That effect is professionally

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, but the what's the word I'm looking for?

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Political correct? Well, that's that's That's the overall

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picture, but diversity and inclusion if you look at

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all this nonsense, which is nothing else but good

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old pluralism and multiculturalism more two times into a new

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way where you can't really approach to what it means

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. All of this stuff has altered the faculties,

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inequalities, the selection. If you sit in a

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university race, sex, cultural origin and religion above

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the ability within the field, don't be surprised if

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the field goes away and then you accelerate that with

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interdisciplinary. In is, um, which is another

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one of those wonderfully placed euphemisms that actually means non

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disciplinarian is, um, where disciplines get replaced by

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studies which in themselves already signaled very clearly that there

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is no depth to them. Then you end up

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with what is the demise of the American University within

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a few years, we are going to be probably

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completely adjusted to the the World Bank's notion of the

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global faculty who are employees who do the bidding of

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the employers. And with that, I think we're

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looking at a rather bleak academic future. And I

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don't want to speculate beyond that because one shooting.

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But that is what you're really looking at when you

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say What changed Inter. I'm sorry internally. What

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changed is really not much. Or let's put it

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that way. Nothing inordinately changed. We survived too

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. Horrid deans. Mhm. I mean people who

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had absolutely no connection to architecture and had actually an

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intention of undermining architecture because it is not a socially

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directed field, but an artistic directed field. We

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survived that we made it. We're back now with

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an architect as Dean, and we're back now with

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a good architect as department head or director, as

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we call them. So that shows you the strength

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of what was built into that faculty. And it

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shows the strength of the dedication to architecture. And

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also, I think, Mm. And bear in

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mind, I cut myself out of this. So

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if you can pretty state, uh huh? I

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think, too. There's a lot of alumni for

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faculty in the program, and so there's an allegiance

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to to their school to not be, you know

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, responsible for its. That's slipping right. We've

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been on the fire for hiring our own people for

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a long time. I mean, sometimes, and

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you can hold put it very beautifully, ones to

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one of our former deans. And he said,

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Look, this is a school of architecture and out

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of animal husbandry, So could you please dispense with

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the incestuous implications? I mean, it was the

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most appropriate answer to that nonsense, because a school

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is a place of continuum. It's a place in

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which the history of the thought of the school and

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the work of the school is a continue, which

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reflects directly the inevitable change that comes through the change

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in the student body and in the faculty. Of

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course, for political reasons, that change isn't fast

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enough, and it's not controllable. So every effort

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was made to destroy that continue, didn't succeed.

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So what can you say? Yeah, truth will

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prevail. One last question on this sort of line

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. So some speak people speculated that, and I

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think your answer is perfect. Um, that that

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when Ferrari died, he was sort of the last

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of those strong personalities that were at the head,

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not from what I've been able to discern. I

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don't think that's really that accurate, but but some

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people have speculated that without that sort of figurehead,

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yeah, plays a role. What do you think

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about? Well, people who say that forget that

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Ferrari faced himself out rather early in the game.

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Then I moved to Europe. I stopped giving lectures

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. Um, I mean, I really liked that

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. We have a socially very close. He actually

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asked me to take him hunting and fishing and teach

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amount of fly fish. A lot of people don't

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know that, but that is out in the open

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. He saw what was coming, and he was

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old enough at the time to look for ways to

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get out from under it, because what he was

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doing could not survive, at least in his eyes

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. What's wonderful about it is not that he's dead

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. He probably knows, and here's what I'm saying

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. It did survive. The point about the personality

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is a typical American point, and I'm not.

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Don't misunderstand me. I'm American, but I'm saying

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it is a point where the constant looking for leadership

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gets in the way of understanding that principles. Fundamental

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philosophical foundations are what survive and finally brought those to

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the school. And then he brought people that understood

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those and they maintained those and we're all going to

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die. But those foundations are the things that continue

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. Those foundations are the things that make cultures.

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Those foundations are the things that even in adverse conditions

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, cannot be rooted out. They can only be

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suppressed so well. Ferrari was a great personality.

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The vacuum, his departure left left also a situation

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of sibling rivalry almost with some of the fact,

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because some of them didn't really rely on that wonderful

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basis that they could stand on. But then,

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that's youth. And that's how you grow more mature

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and how you grow older. And that's how we

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make. So yes, he was a wonderful personality

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, and there's nobody much lift that I can yell

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at and who yells back and who yells at me

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and I can yell back. I mean, I

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remember we would empty studios and Phil classrooms when we

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got into arguments that I wouldn't have today because I

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was ignorant and young and he was much wiser and

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older. But he stood up and he yelled and

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he corrected and I yelled back, and I learned

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and that, yes, we're missing that. But

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the large degree it's also because we have become perhaps

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professionally, too polite. We are personally distant and

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over polite in many cases and professionally, way too

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polite. But the danger right now is the fragility

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of trying to rebuild the place after this really horrid

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interregnum. When architecture became well again, as somebody

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put it, we had Dean's that didn't know the

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difference between the plan and the section mhm. You

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can't You can't maintain architecture at the proper series level

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. So all I can say is, yes,

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we we miss all of you. He built the

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school, but what he left is often misunderstood as

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a personal uh huh legacy rather than an eternal legacy

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. And it gives him actually short shrift by not

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acknowledging that. Great. Um, I'm curious about

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I've heard a lot about how he taught or some

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people talked about how he didn't, um and that's

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how he taught. And, you know, It's

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a little ignorance on my part, but it seems

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to me from the descriptions that I've heard of how

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things used to be and how he inspired people,

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that you actually are one of the the people left

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00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:25.329 A:middle L:90%
that's still do that. Is that accurate? Yes

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00:26:25.339 --> 00:26:33.670 A:middle L:90%
, definitely. You see, teaching is often misunderstood

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00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:45.170 A:middle L:90%
for making information absorbable in a pragmatic situation. That

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is correct. But that's not teaching. Teaching is

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bringing out in the student the interest that generates the

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need for absorption of both information and knowledge. That's

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what Ferrari was excellent at, and that's what some

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of us are aspiring to. And that difference is

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00:27:15.809 --> 00:27:21.420 A:middle L:90%
being undermined annually by the university through its distribution of

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00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:25.660 A:middle L:90%
teaching awards through its definition of what good teaching is

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00:27:26.539 --> 00:27:33.839 A:middle L:90%
, which is all techno dependent information dissemination. Now

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Lord knows, if you're teaching some field that deals

358
00:27:37.690 --> 00:27:41.410 A:middle L:90%
with statistics, perhaps that's the proper approach. I

359
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don't know. I'm ignorant of that for an art

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00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:52.299 A:middle L:90%
. It just won't work. And that is one

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of the things that when we try to talk to

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00:27:55.259 --> 00:28:00.569 A:middle L:90%
the university, is being brushed aside because it it

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00:28:00.569 --> 00:28:04.779 A:middle L:90%
matters the waters of clear, frictionless functioning, which

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00:28:04.779 --> 00:28:08.819 A:middle L:90%
is the thing that in an administratively driven situation is

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00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:14.490 A:middle L:90%
the goal, not how good our students become the

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rogue college. Yes, or you become disgruntled.

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00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.400 A:middle L:90%
That's the wonderful word, your disgruntled when you critique

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what's going on in what's called teaching, which is

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nothing else but training. I mean, with the

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same methods you can train a dog, you can

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train a monkey. The same methods have been used

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in rather bad places where human beings were made to

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perform according to certain standards. We know that that's

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history. So, yes, there's a big difference

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. And yes, when you talk about pedagogy,

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when you talk about taking the risks of pedagogic,

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if you want to be a teacher, you have

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to take a risk in the wager. The wager

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is that student will actually want to learn and want

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to do the thing. The risk is they won't

381
00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:18.660 A:middle L:90%
turn out that if you're not willing to take those

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00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:22.849 A:middle L:90%
two risks. If you cannot allow failure in education

383
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, then get the hell out of education. And

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this means the universities should get out of education the

385
00:29:32.289 --> 00:29:36.609 A:middle L:90%
way they are now looking at education because risk is

386
00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:40.410 A:middle L:90%
no longer allowed. It reminds me of something.

387
00:29:40.410 --> 00:29:42.559 A:middle L:90%
I interviewed T. Marshall Haunt, and he's the

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one who brought Burchard. I talked to him about

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00:29:45.329 --> 00:29:48.490 A:middle L:90%
that and he said, You know, he wanted

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00:29:48.490 --> 00:29:52.079 A:middle L:90%
a top architecture program, period. And so he

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found the guy you apparently had to bag in practically

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. And he told him, I want to top

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architecture, school, do what you need to do

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and then gave him all the cover he needed.

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And then again, what I've heard is that then

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Burchard was able to give Ferrari and others full cover

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to do what they needed to do. And it

398
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, I mean, that's the ideal right? And

399
00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:19.390 A:middle L:90%
that's just not there. Well, that's again a

400
00:30:19.390 --> 00:30:23.329 A:middle L:90%
structural problem, because the dean's and virtually, I

401
00:30:23.329 --> 00:30:26.400 A:middle L:90%
think, was the last one. Charlie Steiger was

402
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.220 A:middle L:90%
a very good team, and he was fully aware

403
00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:37.119 A:middle L:90%
of the transition. It happened in his time when

404
00:30:37.130 --> 00:30:41.049 A:middle L:90%
the Dean's, instead of being the last layer of

405
00:30:41.049 --> 00:30:47.130 A:middle L:90%
the faculty relative to the administration, became the lowest

406
00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:52.279 A:middle L:90%
layer of the administration dealing with faculty. And that

407
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.549 A:middle L:90%
is what caused that big change. If I have

408
00:30:56.549 --> 00:30:59.450 A:middle L:90%
a problem now with things that go on at the

409
00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:03.359 A:middle L:90%
university, I have nobody to talk to. I

410
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:08.609 A:middle L:90%
have to go to the state Legislature because everybody from

411
00:31:08.609 --> 00:31:12.720 A:middle L:90%
there on down to the dean works for the state

412
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:18.369 A:middle L:90%
Legislature. Whether they want to admit it or not

413
00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:19.089 A:middle L:90%
, it's a different story, but I can prove

414
00:31:19.089 --> 00:31:27.170 A:middle L:90%
it. Let's talk about Washington House. Andrea,

415
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:32.640 A:middle L:90%
I can talk to you about this all night.

416
00:31:32.650 --> 00:31:33.769 A:middle L:90%
I want to take up your whole night. Oh

417
00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:38.769 A:middle L:90%
, thank you. Mm mm. Washington, Alexandria

418
00:31:40.339 --> 00:31:45.390 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, tell you what? Before you.

419
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:48.460 A:middle L:90%
Before we shift gears if you want. Um,

420
00:31:49.940 --> 00:31:55.559 A:middle L:90%
I read in the I asked for for the Ferrari

421
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.740 A:middle L:90%
. Uh huh. Look. And yeah, So

422
00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:01.250 A:middle L:90%
I I read through that. I thought I really

423
00:32:01.250 --> 00:32:04.410 A:middle L:90%
liked what you had to write. Do you want

424
00:32:04.410 --> 00:32:07.240 A:middle L:90%
to relate that story at all? How I got

425
00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:09.819 A:middle L:90%
? Yeah, it wasn't a party. And through

426
00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:14.779 A:middle L:90%
the jobs, basically, I mean, I was

427
00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:16.109 A:middle L:90%
so dumb about architecture at that time. It was

428
00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:20.769 A:middle L:90%
It wasn't funny when I look back at it and

429
00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:27.529 A:middle L:90%
again, this was finales genius. We were talking

430
00:32:27.529 --> 00:32:30.029 A:middle L:90%
. They're slightly cracked and he asked me about architecture

431
00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:34.309 A:middle L:90%
, and I was giving him some idiotic definition of

432
00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:37.000 A:middle L:90%
architecture that I was living on ever since I had

433
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.390 A:middle L:90%
left race. And he sort of dismissed. It

434
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:43.759 A:middle L:90%
didn't even say anything. But I could say seeing

435
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:50.380 A:middle L:90%
his face. And yeah, I was I was

436
00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:51.880 A:middle L:90%
a cocky guy. I thought, you know,

437
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:52.970 A:middle L:90%
who is he to dismiss it like that? He

438
00:32:52.970 --> 00:32:54.289 A:middle L:90%
said, Would you like to, you know,

439
00:32:54.299 --> 00:32:58.400 A:middle L:90%
come to Kabul? You know, faculty has said

440
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.049 A:middle L:90%
, Well, yeah, I don't know. I

441
00:33:00.059 --> 00:33:01.829 A:middle L:90%
would like the problem And I said, Why do

442
00:33:01.829 --> 00:33:04.859 A:middle L:90%
you want me on the faculty? And he said

443
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.220 A:middle L:90%
, Well, every faculty, every architecture, faculty

444
00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:14.170 A:middle L:90%
should have an Austrian And at that time, it

445
00:33:14.170 --> 00:33:17.539 A:middle L:90%
really sounded like, Well, you just confirmed my

446
00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:22.420 A:middle L:90%
ideas about you, you know? But it was

447
00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:24.890 A:middle L:90%
one of those statements coming from a guy who you

448
00:33:24.890 --> 00:33:34.000 A:middle L:90%
didn't take lightly that you thought about. And I

449
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.109 A:middle L:90%
started to think about what is the connection between architecture

450
00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:40.619 A:middle L:90%
and Austria. And it's at that time that I

451
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:47.690 A:middle L:90%
started to realize the historic importance of Austrian architecture since

452
00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:52.799 A:middle L:90%
the Baroque. And much of my academic work is

453
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.490 A:middle L:90%
based on that moment of realization, because once you

454
00:33:57.490 --> 00:33:59.990 A:middle L:90%
start digging like in anything else that you are really

455
00:33:59.990 --> 00:34:02.960 A:middle L:90%
interested in, you find things that can actually fulfill

456
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.319 A:middle L:90%
your life. And so in that sense, he

457
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:12.389 A:middle L:90%
used the same pedagogical method on the faculty. But

458
00:34:12.389 --> 00:34:15.650 A:middle L:90%
the future faculty that he used understood, and that's

459
00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:20.349 A:middle L:90%
a very important thing to remember. It was the

460
00:34:20.349 --> 00:34:22.699 A:middle L:90%
planting a seed. The other thing, too,

461
00:34:22.699 --> 00:34:23.590 A:middle L:90%
that you have to understand. And that is it

462
00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:29.099 A:middle L:90%
reads out idiots. If I would have been a

463
00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:30.110 A:middle L:90%
real idiot, I don't know how much of an

464
00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:32.179 A:middle L:90%
idiot I am, but I wasn't really did.

465
00:34:32.250 --> 00:34:36.739 A:middle L:90%
I would have simply dismissed it. But a thinking

466
00:34:36.739 --> 00:34:40.840 A:middle L:90%
person starts to dig on something that nobody else finds

467
00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:46.019 A:middle L:90%
very important, because it doesn't fit into their scheme

468
00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:51.849 A:middle L:90%
of procedure or process. And so you think about

469
00:34:51.849 --> 00:34:58.019 A:middle L:90%
it and it makes a thinking person activated. And

470
00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:01.639 A:middle L:90%
that is probably the most fundamental importance about the Pentagon

471
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:06.710 A:middle L:90%
chief. Artistic education, right? You have to

472
00:35:06.710 --> 00:35:10.559 A:middle L:90%
have high esteem for that person, which obviously not

473
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.710 A:middle L:90%
the highest team. I barely knew him at that

474
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:19.639 A:middle L:90%
time. I had respect. No, but it

475
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.130 A:middle L:90%
sounds like but no, it's not that I had

476
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:27.840 A:middle L:90%
had respect because I saw what the product was in

477
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:36.429 A:middle L:90%
the school and so respect, you know, today

478
00:35:36.429 --> 00:35:39.469 A:middle L:90%
we're we're supposed to have respect for everything. I

479
00:35:39.469 --> 00:35:43.190 A:middle L:90%
mean, the idiocy of this whole political correctness nonsense

480
00:35:43.190 --> 00:35:45.840 A:middle L:90%
. is just it's detrimental if you ask me to

481
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.469 A:middle L:90%
have respect for people I cannot respect. People need

482
00:35:49.469 --> 00:35:53.969 A:middle L:90%
to be treated with contempt that are contemptuous. Yeah

483
00:35:55.539 --> 00:36:00.639 A:middle L:90%
. So respect to me means something else. And

484
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.110 A:middle L:90%
when I have respect for a person, that person

485
00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:08.530 A:middle L:90%
will occupy major times of my life. And that

486
00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:15.250 A:middle L:90%
is what the situation was that Well, it warms

487
00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:17.869 A:middle L:90%
my heart to know that you consider yourself ignorant about

488
00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:23.030 A:middle L:90%
architecture until you can. Yeah, I could put

489
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:25.840 A:middle L:90%
buildings together, but I had no idea of architecture

490
00:36:27.730 --> 00:36:29.309 A:middle L:90%
. Now, this is the beauty of kogel.

491
00:36:29.730 --> 00:36:34.369 A:middle L:90%
It educates the faculty when we are allowed to do

492
00:36:34.369 --> 00:36:38.630 A:middle L:90%
that. I mean, that was gonna be my

493
00:36:38.630 --> 00:36:43.869 A:middle L:90%
next question. So you clearly feel that your education

494
00:36:43.869 --> 00:36:47.449 A:middle L:90%
as an architect, straight from here straight from here

495
00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:52.500 A:middle L:90%
, Rice gave me a good basis to slip into

496
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:57.289 A:middle L:90%
the American idiom gift. Understand? I've spent three

497
00:36:57.289 --> 00:37:00.699 A:middle L:90%
years there, and, you know, I feel

498
00:37:00.699 --> 00:37:05.070 A:middle L:90%
for my foreign students my English was no better than

499
00:37:05.070 --> 00:37:10.440 A:middle L:90%
theirs. I might have had an additional handicap,

500
00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:15.219 A:middle L:90%
which was a cultural chip on my shoulder. And

501
00:37:15.219 --> 00:37:20.449 A:middle L:90%
so those years were mostly years of adjustment. Until

502
00:37:20.449 --> 00:37:22.949 A:middle L:90%
my last year, when it did actually the first

503
00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:28.659 A:middle L:90%
Uh huh. Serious work as an architecture student.

504
00:37:29.829 --> 00:37:30.820 A:middle L:90%
That was with Paul Kennan, who was a wonderful

505
00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:37.139 A:middle L:90%
teacher and who allowed me to go into a scale

506
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:39.159 A:middle L:90%
that was more natural to me, which was the

507
00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:44.320 A:middle L:90%
urban scale at that time. And this shows you

508
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:45.519 A:middle L:90%
how one changes over the years, and I still

509
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:47.900 A:middle L:90%
love the urban scale. But now I'm really,

510
00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:51.449 A:middle L:90%
at the scale of, you know, making furniture

511
00:37:51.449 --> 00:37:57.250 A:middle L:90%
almost and which I do. And I shall say

512
00:37:58.329 --> 00:38:02.619 A:middle L:90%
you sort of move out of the production mode into

513
00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:09.869 A:middle L:90%
the education mode. And then architecture becomes scale lists

514
00:38:09.869 --> 00:38:15.099 A:middle L:90%
in the sense of your interest, but very precise

515
00:38:15.110 --> 00:38:17.139 A:middle L:90%
in where your interests focus at any particular time.

516
00:38:19.619 --> 00:38:22.019 A:middle L:90%
And that, again is a wonderful thing that the

517
00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:28.349 A:middle L:90%
school gave me an opportunity to develop. That's why

518
00:38:28.349 --> 00:38:30.880 A:middle L:90%
it's a university in my mind. Still, regardless

519
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:35.030 A:middle L:90%
of what the external world wants it to be,

520
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.840 A:middle L:90%
well, mhm, I feel old enough to say

521
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:44.309 A:middle L:90%
this, uh, I think the students have changed

522
00:38:44.309 --> 00:38:45.739 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, I don't think, you know

523
00:38:45.230 --> 00:38:49.960 A:middle L:90%
, I don't think cut from the same cloth as

524
00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:52.429 A:middle L:90%
those that went before me. And I see the

525
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.630 A:middle L:90%
students now, and I'm stunned at how different they

526
00:38:55.630 --> 00:39:00.650 A:middle L:90%
are than even my generation students have to change.

527
00:39:00.619 --> 00:39:06.539 A:middle L:90%
I mean, we'd be a dead nation or Libya

528
00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:10.159 A:middle L:90%
. Mm. If students wouldn't change. And even

529
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:14.699 A:middle L:90%
in Libya and then Egypt and the Nazi Germany students

530
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:17.920 A:middle L:90%
change, that's why those places can survive. Humanity

531
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:24.829 A:middle L:90%
changes humanity changes in its social expression. Humanity.

532
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:30.679 A:middle L:90%
Humanity doesn't change as humanity. And that's something we

533
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:37.050 A:middle L:90%
need to remember. The house is still a house

534
00:39:37.050 --> 00:39:37.860 A:middle L:90%
. We can still live in houses that were built

535
00:39:37.929 --> 00:39:43.039 A:middle L:90%
1000 years ago, and they become more popular as

536
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.869 A:middle L:90%
we go along because we have suddenly started to translate

537
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:52.329 A:middle L:90%
social changes into changes of humanity, which is a

538
00:39:52.329 --> 00:40:00.849 A:middle L:90%
horrifying, deadly mistake. We wring our hands about

539
00:40:00.849 --> 00:40:05.409 A:middle L:90%
the decay of our civilization. Well, we call

540
00:40:05.409 --> 00:40:12.340 A:middle L:90%
everything a culture that anybody does well. That comes

541
00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:15.269 A:middle L:90%
a moment when you say, Wake up, folks

542
00:40:15.269 --> 00:40:17.360 A:middle L:90%
and start to understand what the words mean. They

543
00:40:17.369 --> 00:40:21.780 A:middle L:90%
refer to something in particular, but in terms of

544
00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:27.079 A:middle L:90%
architecture, education, that the change that is taking

545
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.269 A:middle L:90%
place and what you're describing to me that does seem

546
00:40:30.269 --> 00:40:32.699 A:middle L:90%
like a problem. No, it's not a problem

547
00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:35.820 A:middle L:90%
if you're aware of it. If you accept it

548
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.719 A:middle L:90%
, and if you change your methods. According to

549
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.579 A:middle L:90%
it. It's a question of methodology, of teaching

550
00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:45.630 A:middle L:90%
, not of pedagogy. We mistake that very often

551
00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:49.929 A:middle L:90%
, and we need to have more discourse on that

552
00:40:51.409 --> 00:40:52.400 A:middle L:90%
. You see, the word pedagogy means nothing.

553
00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:57.849 A:middle L:90%
Today, pedagogy is the art of teaching. Pedagogy

554
00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:01.679 A:middle L:90%
is not didactic. When you go into a discussion

555
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.119 A:middle L:90%
with a lot of faculty about pedagogy, they talk

556
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.449 A:middle L:90%
about that Act IX, which is very important because

557
00:41:08.449 --> 00:41:14.440 A:middle L:90%
the tactics changes much faster than pedagogy or method.

558
00:41:17.809 --> 00:41:21.739 A:middle L:90%
We need discourse on that, and we need support

559
00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.420 A:middle L:90%
on that. That allows us to get what we

560
00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:29.400 A:middle L:90%
have to say into the public realm, but first

561
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.320 A:middle L:90%
of all, into the university realm. But it

562
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:36.329 A:middle L:90%
doesn't go there because it doesn't conform to the nonsensical

563
00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:42.690 A:middle L:90%
notions of the university of what education is. We

564
00:41:42.690 --> 00:41:45.699 A:middle L:90%
talked, and every one of our faculty of any

565
00:41:45.699 --> 00:41:51.289 A:middle L:90%
age can confirm that you talk to people from biology

566
00:41:51.289 --> 00:41:52.050 A:middle L:90%
. You talk to people from chemistry. You talk

567
00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:54.389 A:middle L:90%
to people from everywhere the moment they move into an

568
00:41:54.389 --> 00:41:58.380 A:middle L:90%
administrative position, which is basically what they were seeking

569
00:41:58.389 --> 00:41:59.599 A:middle L:90%
, They say, Well, we used to do

570
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:04.880 A:middle L:90%
exactly the same thing, and when you say I'm

571
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.469 A:middle L:90%
sorry, I really don't think So the several You're

572
00:42:07.469 --> 00:42:13.829 A:middle L:90%
just disgruntled. Mm. This is where the discourse

573
00:42:13.829 --> 00:42:16.889 A:middle L:90%
stops. That's why we drop out of much of

574
00:42:16.889 --> 00:42:22.760 A:middle L:90%
what the university is doing because the definitional problems are

575
00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:29.440 A:middle L:90%
choking to death, that real core, the content

576
00:42:29.449 --> 00:42:36.139 A:middle L:90%
, the essence of our opposition, as long as

577
00:42:36.139 --> 00:42:38.610 A:middle L:90%
that's not accepted, will have to be working as

578
00:42:38.610 --> 00:42:47.880 A:middle L:90%
an underground operation, basically, And so I don't

579
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.960 A:middle L:90%
want to put too fine a point on this or

580
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:53.500 A:middle L:90%
something this up. But I think it would be

581
00:42:53.500 --> 00:42:59.489 A:middle L:90%
nice if this was true. If you could speak

582
00:42:59.489 --> 00:43:04.010 A:middle L:90%
to this a little bit. Uh, all right

583
00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:07.309 A:middle L:90%
is the goal of architecture, education, the way

584
00:43:07.309 --> 00:43:10.320 A:middle L:90%
you see it to produce it sounds to me like

585
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:15.420 A:middle L:90%
what you're saying. What was the ideas of Ferrari

586
00:43:15.429 --> 00:43:20.300 A:middle L:90%
Bertrand and those people is It's not about producing practicing

587
00:43:20.300 --> 00:43:24.900 A:middle L:90%
architects. It's about producing architect. Yes, and

588
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:29.389 A:middle L:90%
that's a big difference. One of the few things

589
00:43:29.389 --> 00:43:31.320 A:middle L:90%
that I was ever told when it started as a

590
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:37.739 A:middle L:90%
faculty was first we make architects, then we make

591
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:51.070 A:middle L:90%
architecture very, very important distinction. Strangely enough,

592
00:43:51.070 --> 00:43:55.590 A:middle L:90%
it's not original Emmanuel hands model for education is precisely

593
00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:06.469 A:middle L:90%
that supported national. You've got to make a different

594
00:44:06.469 --> 00:44:12.210 A:middle L:90%
human being if you want to make an ontological different

595
00:44:13.090 --> 00:44:19.860 A:middle L:90%
, adopt what I mean with that is a priest

596
00:44:20.059 --> 00:44:29.010 A:middle L:90%
is ontological different from a carpenter. A medical doctor

597
00:44:29.010 --> 00:44:35.119 A:middle L:90%
is an ideologically different from a welder. An architect

598
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:38.000 A:middle L:90%
is on to logically different. An artist is ontological

599
00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:44.920 A:middle L:90%
, different from other professions and people in other pursuits

600
00:44:45.989 --> 00:44:50.610 A:middle L:90%
. That is what it means to make an architect

601
00:44:52.989 --> 00:44:59.710 A:middle L:90%
. You see the world architecturally, not sociologically,

602
00:45:00.289 --> 00:45:08.500 A:middle L:90%
not medically, not technologically but architecture. That education

603
00:45:09.389 --> 00:45:13.019 A:middle L:90%
, the education of the person. Education of the

604
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:17.719 A:middle L:90%
soul is what is necessary to make good architect.

605
00:45:20.989 --> 00:45:22.539 A:middle L:90%
Now, having said that and something like a monk

606
00:45:22.550 --> 00:45:25.309 A:middle L:90%
trying to get a novice, that's not what it

607
00:45:25.309 --> 00:45:31.130 A:middle L:90%
means. If I look at the good architects of

608
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:37.349 A:middle L:90%
the past of the present, they are as different

609
00:45:37.349 --> 00:45:39.690 A:middle L:90%
from one another one or the other as they can

610
00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:44.110 A:middle L:90%
be. There's no uniformity in that because they are

611
00:45:44.110 --> 00:45:47.340 A:middle L:90%
human beings. But the ontological different lies in the

612
00:45:47.340 --> 00:45:51.849 A:middle L:90%
fact that they want to make architecture and not solve

613
00:45:51.849 --> 00:45:55.010 A:middle L:90%
social problems, political problems, health problems or anything

614
00:45:55.010 --> 00:46:01.489 A:middle L:90%
else. They understand that architecture as an expression of

615
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:09.039 A:middle L:90%
that celebration of the achievement, the cultural achievement of

616
00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:15.019 A:middle L:90%
any group or nation or individual is architectures business.

617
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:20.190 A:middle L:90%
If you take the venue for that expression away,

618
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.900 A:middle L:90%
you lose society. No matter how hard you try

619
00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:25.090 A:middle L:90%
on all the other levels. Because society will have

620
00:46:25.090 --> 00:46:30.539 A:middle L:90%
no residue, nothing is left if there's no architecture

621
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:36.539 A:middle L:90%
, we know and we learn about long gone civilizations

622
00:46:36.550 --> 00:46:39.710 A:middle L:90%
because of what we find in their architectural residue.

623
00:46:44.579 --> 00:46:49.710 A:middle L:90%
We have completely lost that understanding of what architecture is

624
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:53.880 A:middle L:90%
, and that is what architectural education is about.

625
00:46:53.889 --> 00:46:58.449 A:middle L:90%
And that is what the Libya understood brought with him

626
00:46:58.460 --> 00:47:07.530 A:middle L:90%
and instilled in us. And we're continuing. Okay

627
00:47:07.539 --> 00:47:13.159 A:middle L:90%
, just that Answer that. Yeah, I I'm

628
00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:15.119 A:middle L:90%
distracted thinking about how I can I think, a

629
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:23.130 A:middle L:90%
film about you. All right? Well, do

630
00:47:23.130 --> 00:47:28.789 A:middle L:90%
you want to talk about the whack and in Europe

631
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.130 A:middle L:90%
or the European program? Or it's up to you

632
00:47:31.130 --> 00:47:34.800 A:middle L:90%
because I've got plenty to think about it this way

633
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.469 A:middle L:90%
. It's just like a half hour film. I'm

634
00:47:37.469 --> 00:47:39.159 A:middle L:90%
interviewing like 30 people. You have to cut things

635
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:42.440 A:middle L:90%
up, so, you know, But so I've

636
00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:44.980 A:middle L:90%
got plenty of a view that I I know I'll

637
00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:46.090 A:middle L:90%
use, but if you want to talk about those

638
00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:51.190 A:middle L:90%
things that well, John Holt and I basically decided

639
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:52.500 A:middle L:90%
to go up to Washington and start a program.

640
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:59.469 A:middle L:90%
And I remember I walked around my studio and history

641
00:47:59.469 --> 00:48:00.190 A:middle L:90%
and said, If you want to graduate, you

642
00:48:00.190 --> 00:48:02.639 A:middle L:90%
have to go up to Washington with us. It

643
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:09.019 A:middle L:90%
was sort of a humorous blackmail, and the students

644
00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:13.889 A:middle L:90%
that were interested immediately signed up to it. Then

645
00:48:13.889 --> 00:48:15.639 A:middle L:90%
what did we do? We found the place up

646
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:17.650 A:middle L:90%
there after long searching the old high school building,

647
00:48:17.659 --> 00:48:22.699 A:middle L:90%
which we're now again that we could rent. We

648
00:48:22.699 --> 00:48:25.489 A:middle L:90%
could get rent free. It was empty. So

649
00:48:25.489 --> 00:48:28.849 A:middle L:90%
we said, Let's go And what we did is

650
00:48:28.849 --> 00:48:32.210 A:middle L:90%
we had we rented a rent the truck, one

651
00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:37.289 A:middle L:90%
of those big box trucks loaded it up with disks

652
00:48:38.070 --> 00:48:40.800 A:middle L:90%
and what we needed, drove it up, backed

653
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.949 A:middle L:90%
it up to the school because we got there very

654
00:48:43.949 --> 00:48:46.480 A:middle L:90%
late so that nobody would steal the contents and moved

655
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.289 A:middle L:90%
in. And then we started in the summer,

656
00:48:52.369 --> 00:49:00.699 A:middle L:90%
and it's amazing. We produced incredibly beautiful work through

657
00:49:00.699 --> 00:49:06.980 A:middle L:90%
students. Instantly the energy we brought and the energy

658
00:49:06.980 --> 00:49:10.130 A:middle L:90%
the students brought into a place that was a mess

659
00:49:10.769 --> 00:49:15.789 A:middle L:90%
that was ours, to change a real architectural situation

660
00:49:16.269 --> 00:49:21.010 A:middle L:90%
. It was one of the most important times in

661
00:49:21.010 --> 00:49:24.699 A:middle L:90%
my life. I mean, it was so important

662
00:49:25.269 --> 00:49:30.039 A:middle L:90%
. Ruined my marriage completely, got divorced after all

663
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:31.090 A:middle L:90%
of those things, and I know that sounds very

664
00:49:31.090 --> 00:49:34.630 A:middle L:90%
callous. But yes, that was a big part

665
00:49:34.630 --> 00:49:38.690 A:middle L:90%
of it because the focus went into that work.

666
00:49:43.269 --> 00:49:45.039 A:middle L:90%
And then it turned out to be good at all

667
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:46.369 A:middle L:90%
levels anyway. So you know, that's the beauty

668
00:49:46.369 --> 00:49:50.179 A:middle L:90%
of architecture. If it's good, it's good and

669
00:49:50.179 --> 00:49:53.920 A:middle L:90%
it spreads the good influence. But yes, that's

670
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:57.170 A:middle L:90%
what it was about. We spent a lot of

671
00:49:57.170 --> 00:49:59.070 A:middle L:90%
time in the old school. Then I moved back

672
00:49:59.070 --> 00:50:04.750 A:middle L:90%
down here for internal reasons and you know, the

673
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:08.940 A:middle L:90%
necessities of academic life and academic work and went back

674
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:13.360 A:middle L:90%
up again and was engaged with it over time and

675
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:19.780 A:middle L:90%
now you and developed it into completely self well.

676
00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:23.079 A:middle L:90%
It's not completely self sufficient, but intellectually and educationally

677
00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:29.079 A:middle L:90%
self sufficient unit, and is that it's It's a

678
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:30.900 A:middle L:90%
good product. So what was the what was the

679
00:50:30.909 --> 00:50:34.889 A:middle L:90%
reasoning? What made you say we need to do

680
00:50:35.260 --> 00:50:38.110 A:middle L:90%
? We needed to get an urban component. That

681
00:50:38.110 --> 00:50:42.429 A:middle L:90%
was my reason, because I believe to a certain

682
00:50:42.429 --> 00:50:45.400 A:middle L:90%
degree that an urban environment will produce a different kind

683
00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:52.260 A:middle L:90%
of exposure. Then a rural environment will and for

684
00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:55.840 A:middle L:90%
some students. That's very important Now that doesn't mean

685
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:59.090 A:middle L:90%
to say that if you have an urban design program

686
00:50:59.090 --> 00:51:01.489 A:middle L:90%
, it has to be in a city, because

687
00:51:01.489 --> 00:51:05.079 A:middle L:90%
then you have to say which city influences you properly

688
00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:07.739 A:middle L:90%
and Washington, DC actually is a bad city for

689
00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:10.860 A:middle L:90%
that, because it's an anomaly. So if you

690
00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:14.429 A:middle L:90%
want to have an urban design program based on what's

691
00:51:14.429 --> 00:51:16.269 A:middle L:90%
such a wonderful word, now there's an experience.

692
00:51:16.659 --> 00:51:22.409 A:middle L:90%
Don't go to Washington because the experience is rather very

693
00:51:22.409 --> 00:51:25.909 A:middle L:90%
, very lopsided. However, one of the reasons

694
00:51:25.909 --> 00:51:30.030 A:middle L:90%
why we have Europe programs is because the immersion,

695
00:51:30.030 --> 00:51:36.400 A:middle L:90%
the direct contact with architectural examples many times of the

696
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:40.519 A:middle L:90%
past, often times of the present that are not

697
00:51:40.530 --> 00:51:46.010 A:middle L:90%
possible to experience here. And I really mean experience

698
00:51:46.010 --> 00:51:51.010 A:middle L:90%
in the sense of touching, walking through, feeling

699
00:51:51.010 --> 00:51:53.239 A:middle L:90%
the spatial influence, the mass influencing you. All

700
00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:58.510 A:middle L:90%
of that is only possibly feel there. And so

701
00:51:58.510 --> 00:52:01.289 A:middle L:90%
for some students, that's the better environment for other

702
00:52:01.289 --> 00:52:06.139 A:middle L:90%
students. The other is, the better there is

703
00:52:06.139 --> 00:52:08.269 A:middle L:90%
. No one saves all, and so it's wonderful

704
00:52:08.269 --> 00:52:13.369 A:middle L:90%
that we have those opportunities. That's where I got

705
00:52:13.369 --> 00:52:19.389 A:middle L:90%
interested in the Europe programs. Don't forget again.

706
00:52:19.389 --> 00:52:22.360 A:middle L:90%
It sounds funny because I don't make a big deal

707
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:27.170 A:middle L:90%
of it, but I actually did the first full

708
00:52:27.550 --> 00:52:31.469 A:middle L:90%
term for grades. You're a program that was in

709
00:52:31.469 --> 00:52:39.070 A:middle L:90%
76 in Zurich with the fall quarter as an architectural

710
00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:45.440 A:middle L:90%
school quarter into had 14 or 15 students and a

711
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:50.079 A:middle L:90%
wonderful guy Carl Flag was so important for the development

712
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:53.170 A:middle L:90%
of the Europe programs. Wonderful friend sadly died.

713
00:52:57.050 --> 00:53:00.179 A:middle L:90%
But Carl helped me to establish the program in city

714
00:53:01.349 --> 00:53:04.699 A:middle L:90%
, and it was a success. It was a

715
00:53:04.699 --> 00:53:08.210 A:middle L:90%
good program, and with that program, Tom Reagan

716
00:53:08.210 --> 00:53:14.980 A:middle L:90%
was chair at the time, we could prove that

717
00:53:15.750 --> 00:53:20.380 A:middle L:90%
full term programs are possible. It paved the way

718
00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:23.210 A:middle L:90%
for the fall program. And then in the eighties

719
00:53:23.849 --> 00:53:30.789 A:middle L:90%
, I started the spring program for reasons of interest

720
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:35.369 A:middle L:90%
, because to me, going to Europe with bad

721
00:53:35.369 --> 00:53:39.360 A:middle L:90%
light for photography while you're starting moving towards good light

722
00:53:39.369 --> 00:53:42.380 A:middle L:90%
towards the end of the semester, when you have

723
00:53:42.380 --> 00:53:46.500 A:middle L:90%
acclimatized and when you've learned more was an important alternative

724
00:53:46.510 --> 00:53:50.639 A:middle L:90%
to the fall program, which had pretty good weather

725
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:52.610 A:middle L:90%
up to a certain point and then usually went into

726
00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:55.639 A:middle L:90%
the studio mode because you couldn't go outside or you

727
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:59.679 A:middle L:90%
didn't have more than four or five hours for photography

728
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.869 A:middle L:90%
. So the widening of the programs into year long

729
00:54:02.869 --> 00:54:07.960 A:middle L:90%
endeavor was very important to me. So the spring

730
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:12.159 A:middle L:90%
program again being something that has started and maintained for

731
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.320 A:middle L:90%
many years, we then took it into Riva.

732
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:17.210 A:middle L:90%
After live, you found the place and that was

733
00:54:17.210 --> 00:54:20.750 A:middle L:90%
established. And we fleshed out River with the spring

734
00:54:20.750 --> 00:54:24.429 A:middle L:90%
program and continued that until it became again an administrative

735
00:54:24.429 --> 00:54:30.199 A:middle L:90%
obsession and replaced quality of program and quality of education

736
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:35.909 A:middle L:90%
with administrative and social concerns. So that's but I'm

737
00:54:35.909 --> 00:54:42.869 A:middle L:90%
still active in the yeah, not so beset programs

738
00:54:42.869 --> 00:54:51.139 A:middle L:90%
like Travel Program now very important components to support what

739
00:54:51.139 --> 00:54:58.320 A:middle L:90%
our pedagogical from the mental beliefs are. So at

740
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:01.530 A:middle L:90%
this point, do you see your role as sort

741
00:55:01.530 --> 00:55:07.119 A:middle L:90%
of carrying this on as by example? Or are

742
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:13.010 A:middle L:90%
you evangelical to other faculty about Because there's not there's

743
00:55:13.010 --> 00:55:17.800 A:middle L:90%
not that much of this left right? I don't

744
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:23.550 A:middle L:90%
believe in evangelical stuff. Yeah, I believe that

745
00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:36.619 A:middle L:90%
through example and through social interaction, friendship, I

746
00:55:36.619 --> 00:55:40.260 A:middle L:90%
hate the word social. Um, you know,

747
00:55:40.269 --> 00:55:46.480 A:middle L:90%
it's applications and beings. That's true through friendships through

748
00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:51.690 A:middle L:90%
acquaintances that I mean, not all friendships are our

749
00:55:51.690 --> 00:55:52.829 A:middle L:90%
blood bodies for the rest of your life. But

750
00:55:52.829 --> 00:55:57.000 A:middle L:90%
there are people that are friends because you have affinities

751
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.389 A:middle L:90%
. Go, take, hold it Elective affinities.

752
00:56:00.929 --> 00:56:02.750 A:middle L:90%
I agree with that wonderful book. Everybody's agreed.

753
00:56:04.630 --> 00:56:07.849 A:middle L:90%
Architects play a big role in it. Um,

754
00:56:08.929 --> 00:56:12.349 A:middle L:90%
those affinities. It's a better word, actually,

755
00:56:12.349 --> 00:56:15.769 A:middle L:90%
than friendships. Those affinities are the things that continue

756
00:56:15.769 --> 00:56:20.940 A:middle L:90%
your convictions. By the same token, it's because

757
00:56:20.940 --> 00:56:24.269 A:middle L:90%
those affinities are elective. They are filter. Not

758
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:28.550 A:middle L:90%
all of your convictions can stand up for eternity.

759
00:56:30.130 --> 00:56:35.679 A:middle L:90%
Many of those convictions are temporal, but they're based

760
00:56:35.690 --> 00:56:40.090 A:middle L:90%
on eternal convictions. And it's that part that gets

761
00:56:40.099 --> 00:56:45.010 A:middle L:90%
continued while it is being filtered to adjust the changes

762
00:56:45.010 --> 00:56:51.760 A:middle L:90%
of time. That's what made Western civilization. And

763
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:55.579 A:middle L:90%
if we don't remember that, it's possible to lose

764
00:56:55.579 --> 00:56:59.230 A:middle L:90%
it. And we have a lot of examples in

765
00:56:59.230 --> 00:57:02.440 A:middle L:90%
history that proves my point. It sounds like you

766
00:57:02.449 --> 00:57:06.670 A:middle L:90%
really figure that it's about those, like you said

767
00:57:06.670 --> 00:57:15.780 A:middle L:90%
with architects, fundamental pieces. I don't believe you

768
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:19.960 A:middle L:90%
can be innovative, and I don't believe you can

769
00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:28.219 A:middle L:90%
be autonomous without that foundation, and that doesn't make

770
00:57:28.219 --> 00:57:31.170 A:middle L:90%
me a foundational list. I do not demand proof

771
00:57:31.179 --> 00:57:37.409 A:middle L:90%
of the foundation. Proof of the foundation usually kills

772
00:57:37.409 --> 00:57:40.960 A:middle L:90%
the foundation. Yeah, because the foundation is traditional

773
00:57:42.630 --> 00:57:50.650 A:middle L:90%
and not scientific. Human foundations are all tradition.

774
00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:57.239 A:middle L:90%
What does tradition mientras video? We treat tradition as

775
00:57:57.730 --> 00:58:01.820 A:middle L:90%
a substantive It's a verb. It means to hand

776
00:58:01.820 --> 00:58:06.860 A:middle L:90%
on the tragedy to, um, the thing that

777
00:58:06.869 --> 00:58:09.690 A:middle L:90%
doesn't change is being handed on from generation to generation

778
00:58:09.690 --> 00:58:13.150 A:middle L:90%
, from father to son, from teacher to student

779
00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:19.719 A:middle L:90%
. And it's that that is maintained while what surrounds

780
00:58:19.719 --> 00:58:24.679 A:middle L:90%
it and how it's expressed changes. And once you

781
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:31.639 A:middle L:90%
realize that some things become rather less stressful because you

782
00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:35.250 A:middle L:90%
learn to rely on the things that sustained you.

783
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:39.840 A:middle L:90%
And once you can do that, your personal sustaining

784
00:58:40.820 --> 00:58:44.400 A:middle L:90%
and the real sense of that word well, Tyne

785
00:58:44.409 --> 00:58:49.980 A:middle L:90%
Leeds sense of the word sustaining becomes no longer a

786
00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:54.840 A:middle L:90%
chore. It's one of the pleasures of aging and

787
00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:00.039 A:middle L:90%
plenty of Roman and Greek authors who confirmed that.

788
00:59:01.820 --> 00:59:04.559 A:middle L:90%
And the beauty of it is, once you have

789
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:08.730 A:middle L:90%
reached that you can really experience because you know where

790
00:59:08.730 --> 00:59:17.670 A:middle L:90%
experimentation is not potentially detrimental. You learn to discern

791
00:59:17.670 --> 00:59:24.480 A:middle L:90%
between a stupid act and an experiment, and that's

792
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:28.840 A:middle L:90%
what's necessary. If you want to be an artist

793
00:59:30.820 --> 00:59:35.250 A:middle L:90%
because I didn't learn to paint the way he ended

794
00:59:37.219 --> 00:59:43.119 A:middle L:90%
, nobody did. But all those people that we

795
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.030 A:middle L:90%
look at with great admiration, who to us are

796
00:59:45.030 --> 00:59:50.329 A:middle L:90%
the cannon who are the things that are the carriers

797
00:59:50.329 --> 00:59:53.030 A:middle L:90%
of the trade item. They all went through that

798
00:59:58.019 --> 01:00:00.400 A:middle L:90%
. Of course, that needs time. And the

799
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.440 A:middle L:90%
one thing you're not giving our students anymore, it's

800
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:07.400 A:middle L:90%
time we take time away from them. They have

801
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:10.170 A:middle L:90%
to cram things into the short lives in school that

802
01:00:10.170 --> 01:00:19.639 A:middle L:90%
satisfy completely external, totally immaterial concerns and that we

803
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.030 A:middle L:90%
have to regain if we want to make it.

804
01:00:23.110 --> 01:00:29.519 A:middle L:90%
Are you hopeful that things being cyclical and are you

805
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:32.559 A:middle L:90%
hopeful that there will be a mass awakening? Well

806
01:00:32.570 --> 01:00:35.219 A:middle L:90%
, first of all, let me correct you.

807
01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:38.030 A:middle L:90%
They're not cyclical. The world is not secret.

808
01:00:39.010 --> 01:00:44.250 A:middle L:90%
We can really event as being cyclical because stupidity repeats

809
01:00:44.250 --> 01:00:49.820 A:middle L:90%
itself. Okay, But the real human progress is

810
01:00:49.820 --> 01:00:58.099 A:middle L:90%
not secret. Human progress actually is progress. Depending

811
01:00:58.099 --> 01:01:00.179 A:middle L:90%
on what time you live in, it might express

812
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:02.219 A:middle L:90%
itself socially. I mean, look at the advance

813
01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:07.130 A:middle L:90%
of colored people. Look at the advance of people

814
01:01:07.130 --> 01:01:12.460 A:middle L:90%
that were in the colonies, Fragments of progress.

815
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:16.880 A:middle L:90%
The majority still lives in medieval conditions, but that's

816
01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:25.989 A:middle L:90%
progress. Sometimes the progress happens technologically until technology starts

817
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.639 A:middle L:90%
eating into the substance. That's where we are right

818
01:01:30.650 --> 01:01:32.420 A:middle L:90%
now. I think technology is eating into our human

819
01:01:32.420 --> 01:01:36.449 A:middle L:90%
substance. We've got to overcome that. I believe

820
01:01:36.449 --> 01:01:38.030 A:middle L:90%
we will. Because we are over saturating right now

821
01:01:40.610 --> 01:01:44.150 A:middle L:90%
. And the positive about it? Yes, definitely

822
01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:47.360 A:middle L:90%
. Very positive are not optimistic. Optimism is,

823
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:52.500 A:middle L:90%
um is a state of modeled mindedness like pessimism is

824
01:01:53.010 --> 01:02:00.260 A:middle L:90%
I believe I'm a realist. Realism depends on evidence

825
01:02:01.210 --> 01:02:05.650 A:middle L:90%
. And I see evidence that makes me want to

826
01:02:05.650 --> 01:02:07.619 A:middle L:90%
stay in school. I could have retired three years

827
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:10.099 A:middle L:90%
ago. I have no intention of doing it because

828
01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:14.070 A:middle L:90%
I'm excited by what I can do. I'm excited

829
01:02:14.289 --> 01:02:17.829 A:middle L:90%
in rebuilding and continuing to build with the reason necessary

830
01:02:21.110 --> 01:02:29.119 A:middle L:90%
towards that goal. We're going to say nothing more

831
01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:30.230 A:middle L:90%
as far as I'm concerned. Unless there's anything else

832
01:02:30.230 --> 01:02:32.889 A:middle L:90%
you want to say. Anything stories. You wanna

833
01:02:32.900 --> 01:02:37.329 A:middle L:90%
tell her things You want to fuck on? Nah

834
01:02:38.909 --> 01:02:44.159 A:middle L:90%
, it's not the right moment. Thank you.

835
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:45.519 A:middle L:90%
You're welcome. Mhm.