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[Fred Keller] It's very hard to get started after a an
introduction like that. Because I'm gonna

00:00:43.730 --> 00:00:50.300
be very sober about things now, and tell
you that a year or so ago I was struck

00:00:50.300 --> 00:00:56.979
by the idea that I had become a sort of
a born-again, itinerant preacher in the

00:00:56.979 --> 00:01:06.650
field of education. I had confessed the
error of my early ways. I had found a

00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:13.880
better way of life, and I was telling
folks about it. And also, I dreamed of

00:01:13.880 --> 00:01:21.380
wonderful things to come. When I told a
friend about this, he smiled said, 'Don't

00:01:21.380 --> 00:01:25.939
be too sure. Perhaps you're just a huckster. You

00:01:25.939 --> 00:01:32.149
really think you have a panacea, don't
you? And you're trying to sell it

00:01:32.149 --> 00:01:42.469
everywhere.' I have forgotten my reply. But
I did remember Dr. Verpalatte. When I was

00:01:42.469 --> 00:01:47.899
a boy, I lived for a period of time in
Madrid, New York. We had never heard of

00:01:47.899 --> 00:01:57.859
Madrid for several years. One year,
Dr. Verpalette came to our town to give

00:01:57.859 --> 00:02:06.109
a wonderful speech in the town hall,
which we all attended free. He started

00:02:06.109 --> 00:02:15.590
out by throwing nickels and dimes to all
us kids up front. Then he told us about

00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:25.490
his early youth in the great city where
he lived a life of sin and shame. He told

00:02:25.490 --> 00:02:30.519
us how early one morning, after a night
of debauchery,

00:02:30.519 --> 00:02:36.050
he found salvation.  I think it was on the
steps

00:02:36.050 --> 00:02:42.530
of some municipal building. He said it
was how he decided, then and there, to

00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:49.730
spend the rest of his life working for
the good of mankind. Then he told about a

00:02:49.730 --> 00:02:58.220
secret remedy he had discovered,
something in a large bottle. I think he

00:02:58.220 --> 00:03:01.900
said he got it from some Indians. A

00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:10.790
remedy there was a cure for many ills. In
another bottle, he showed us the tapeworm

00:03:10.790 --> 00:03:17.680
that had come out of Willie Adams's
stomach after Willie drank the remedy.

00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:24.470
All of us kids knew that Willie wasn't
very bright, and now we understood why it

00:03:24.470 --> 00:03:30.530
must have been a tapeworm
that he carried in his stomach. Then Dr.

00:03:30.530 --> 00:03:36.250
Verpalette let almost everyone in the
town hall have a bottle of his remedy

00:03:36.250 --> 00:03:47.270
for $1. Some of the early buyers even got
$10 back. My father said next morning

00:03:47.270 --> 00:03:54.050
that the remedy tasted pretty good
but he didn't give any to me. Tonight, I'm

00:03:54.050 --> 00:04:00.400
going to tell you, first, of all my early
vices as a teacher, a college teacher.

00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:07.040
Then, I'll describe my conversion to a
better way of life. After that,

00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:12.500
I'll tell you about the remedy I
discovered, some of its effects. And

00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:18.980
finally, I'll discuss a missionary work
and treat you to a few of my dreams

00:04:18.980 --> 00:04:28.520
about the future. 45 years of my life
were spent as a faculty member in six

00:04:28.520 --> 00:04:35.570
different institutions, and for the most
part, as a classroom teacher. In that time,

00:04:35.570 --> 00:04:44.510
I did many things that I now perceive as
evil. Of which I feel ashamed, all of

00:04:44.510 --> 00:04:49.100
which I cannot be proud. And they all
stemmed

00:04:49.100 --> 00:05:00.940
the worship of false gods, particularly
John Comenius (1592-1670). So-called

00:05:00.940 --> 00:05:09.050
educational reformer, whom I followed
blindly for many years. According to this

00:05:09.050 --> 00:05:14.480
great Moravian, 'A teacher should never
concern himself with individual

00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:22.360
instruction. Rather he should stand
before his class on an elevated platform,

00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:29.290
keeping all the students within his
sight and forcing them to pay attention.

00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:35.240
At the beginning of his talk, he should
present his topic briefly in an

00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:43.580
attractive manner or by asking a set of
questions. Later on, within the lecture, he

00:05:43.580 --> 00:05:49.490
should bring up interesting items and
practical examples to engage the

00:05:49.490 --> 00:05:55.100
interests of his scholars. And he [shouldn't] interrupt his discourse, now and

00:05:55.100 --> 00:06:00.460
then, with questions like, "How did I get
to this point?".

00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:06.770
He should praise the student who gives
the best answer, so that others will try

00:06:06.770 --> 00:06:13.580
to emulate him. Finally when the lecture
is ended I quote, "the scholar will be

00:06:13.580 --> 00:06:20.030
given leave to ask questions on any
point they wish explained."' For years, I

00:06:20.030 --> 00:06:25.040
tried to follow this prescription. I
lectured to my classes from a place

00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:31.700
where I could see each face before me. I
gave an outline in advance or I posed

00:06:31.700 --> 00:06:39.280
some critical questions. I included
amusing items and practical examples. I

00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:47.120
asked a question, now and then, to keep my class alert. I summarized when I was done,

00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:54.500
and sometimes, offered to answer
questions. I did everything that Comenius

00:06:54.500 --> 00:06:59.600
suggested. There were some things that Comenius

00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:06.080
didn't cover. He didn't tell us, for
example, about the outcome of his

00:07:06.080 --> 00:07:13.120
teaching, about the distribution of his
scholars grades from A to F, or the

00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:19.280
number of those who achieved distinction
later on, or how they ranked him as a

00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:27.980
teacher on some questionnaire. The Golden Age of pupil and teacher evaluation had

00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:34.640
not yet been ushered in. So maybe I am
wrong in keeping and tracing some of my

00:07:34.640 --> 00:07:40.850
own immoral conduct to his door. Perhaps
I ought to blame it on the people who

00:07:40.850 --> 00:07:47.630
came later in the history of education.
However that may be, I did a lot of

00:07:47.630 --> 00:07:54.910
sinning. Some of my sins were little ones.
When I lectured to my classes, for

00:07:54.910 --> 00:08:00.710
example, I occasionally permitted the
impression to be gathered that I knew

00:08:00.710 --> 00:08:10.610
things which I really didn't. Sometimes, 
I played down issues or made light of

00:08:10.610 --> 00:08:17.840
problems on which I was really
unprepared to speak. And some of the

00:08:17.840 --> 00:08:25.400
quotation marks in my lectures came to
be neglected with repeated use. Nothing

00:08:25.400 --> 00:08:31.940
very serious, sometimes when I saw a
question coming in the classroom which

00:08:31.940 --> 00:08:38.660
might disclose my lack of knowledge, I
would look the other way. If the

00:08:38.660 --> 00:08:45.350
questioner insisted, I might put him off
till after class suggesting that the

00:08:45.350 --> 00:08:52.610
matter was so esoteric or so complicated
as to be unsuitable for general

00:08:52.610 --> 00:08:59.350
discussion. By the time the class was
done, he might have to hurry to another,

00:08:59.350 --> 00:09:04.640
perhaps I would thought of a better
answer, or I would have found some other

00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:10.920
method of escape. I lied to my students
from time to time.

00:09:10.920 --> 00:09:17.399
I said that 'I expected all of them to
pass my course,' when I knew this would

00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:24.630
not happen. I told them 'I would like it
if they all got A's,' when I wouldn't have

00:09:24.630 --> 00:09:32.970
liked it at all. I said that 'anyone could
understand, excuse me, the content of the

00:09:32.970 --> 00:09:37.800
course,' when I knew that there were
sections of the textbook that I couldn't

00:09:37.800 --> 00:09:45.990
understand myself. I told them I would
'treat them fairly,' after which I tampered

00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:52.560
with a distribution of their grades,
making ABCDEF discriminations

00:09:52.560 --> 00:10:01.529
that I could not possibly defend. I used
tricky questions, now and then, to

00:10:01.529 --> 00:10:07.560
separate the sheep from the goats, an
interesting figure to apply to students.

00:10:07.560 --> 00:10:16.410
And I denied my pupils the opportunity
to defend their answers or I used a

00:10:16.410 --> 00:10:23.449
classroom vote to decide upon the
changing of an individual students grade.

00:10:23.449 --> 00:10:27.510
There are other things I did of which I
cannot be proud.

00:10:27.510 --> 00:10:36.029
I used histrionics more and more as the
years went by. And the factual material

00:10:36.029 --> 00:10:43.800
of my lectures was diluted. I left out
more of the hard parts and I placed a

00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:50.040
greater stress upon the textbook, even
though this meant that I, or at least or

00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:57.449
more commonly my assistant, would have to read it with more care. I introduced more

00:10:57.449 --> 00:11:05.839
demonstrations too within the classroom
hour. And I provided outside speakers

00:11:05.839 --> 00:11:13.370
whenever I was able. The evaluation of my
pupils work was not a simple matter.

00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:19.410
There were administrative guidelines
that I had to follow. There was the good

00:11:19.410 --> 00:11:25.670
opinion of my colleagues to consider.
There was my own predisposition with

00:11:25.670 --> 00:11:30.140
respect to students whom I knew quite
well. And finally, there was the actual

00:11:30.140 --> 00:11:37.670
performance of the students on the
examination. It may be that the letter

00:11:37.670 --> 00:11:45.350
grades which I finally assigned did not
conform precisely to what my students

00:11:45.350 --> 00:11:52.970
knew about their courses. In addition to
my immoral or unethical behavior, I

00:11:52.970 --> 00:12:00.740
engaged in self-deception. I assumed that
I was a successful teacher if 10% of my

00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:08.210
class received an A. If I send a student,
now and then, to graduate school. If

00:12:08.210 --> 00:12:14.720
enrollment in my class continued to be
large. Or if I came out well on some

00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:22.430
popularity poll. I closed my eyes to
evidence of my failure, and I listened

00:12:22.430 --> 00:12:31.010
avidly to stories told of teachers who
were obviously worse than I was. Worst of

00:12:31.010 --> 00:12:39.140
all, was the effect I had upon my pupils.
I taught a number of them to cheat, to

00:12:39.140 --> 00:12:52.279
lie, to steal, to bribe, to wheedle, and to
plagiarize on various occasions. I taught

00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:57.740
some of them to hate the educational
process and everything connected with it.

00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:05.750
I taught a few of them to be show-offish and pedantic. These were sometimes my

00:13:05.750 --> 00:13:08.770
potential teachers.

00:13:08.970 --> 00:13:14.850
And I led many of them to feel inferior
for many years to come.

00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:22.949
All this, I did in the name of service to
society from which when I retired I

00:13:22.949 --> 00:13:29.629
would receive a pension and the sunshine
of an occasional letter of appreciation,

00:13:29.629 --> 00:13:38.579
which would make it all worthwhile. My
conversion from this way of life to one

00:13:38.579 --> 00:13:47.579
of greater usefulness came in 1963, when
I was almost ready for retirement. It

00:13:47.579 --> 00:13:53.279
came as the result of freedom given by
the University of Brasilia to four

00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:59.040
Psychology professors to give up older
ways of teaching and to develop

00:13:59.040 --> 00:14:05.720
something better. One evening by my
fireside in the New York City suburb,

00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.430
exhausted by our efforts to come up with
something new, the four of us ,the two

00:14:11.430 --> 00:14:17.879
Brazilians and the two North Americans,
experienced a vision a sort of [fully a

00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:26.279
cot.] We imagined a course of study in
which each student could advance step by

00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:32.670
step through successive elements of
knowledge or of skill from the beginning

00:14:32.670 --> 00:14:40.800
of the course until it ended. We saw him
moving at his own pace, rather than in

00:14:40.800 --> 00:14:47.970
lockstep, but meeting our requirements
fully as they went along. As shown by his

00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:55.559
performance on a unit test. And all his
work was done when each unit had been

00:14:55.559 --> 00:15:02.399
mastered, no matter how much time it took
or how many tests were needed. We saw the

00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:11.550
student as successful, worthy of an A, or
its equivalent. This meant only that the

00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:17.730
course requirements had been met. No
attempt was made to find what else the

00:15:17.730 --> 00:15:23.690
student knew, beyond that which the
course had called for.

00:15:23.690 --> 00:15:30.329
We saw the classroom lecture in our
vision. Not as something to be swallowed

00:15:30.329 --> 00:15:36.449
by the student two or three times weekly
and coughed up later in half-digested

00:15:36.449 --> 00:15:44.250
form, but as something to be used on rare
occasions to display the teacher style

00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:52.410
and dealing with his subject matter to
impress or to inspire his pupils. No

00:15:52.410 --> 00:15:57.899
student would be tested on the content
of these lectures or on that of any

00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:07.829
demonstrations that the instructor might
provide. In 1964 and 65, our dream was

00:16:07.829 --> 00:16:14.370
realized in part at the University of
Brasilia in an introductory laboratory

00:16:14.370 --> 00:16:21.569
course on the Principles of Behavior. And
plans were underway for its extension to

00:16:21.569 --> 00:16:28.560
higher level courses, first in Physics,
then Mathematics, and to other disciplines

00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:37.949
than ours. Then the program was suddenly
halted by governmental action. 250 or

00:16:37.949 --> 00:16:45.540
more professors were dismissed or left
the university in protest. Our two

00:16:45.540 --> 00:16:53.209
Brazilian collaborators were among the
first. At Arizona State University in

00:16:53.209 --> 00:17:00.480
1965, the two Americans of the group had
better luck. The dream came true for them

00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:07.589
in another elementary course of study.
Again, it was a one-term, self-paced

00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:15.120
course composed of 20 units where the
unit mastery requirement, and again the

00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:22.520
grade of A, was given to every student
who completed all the units with success.

00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:27.870
Lectures and demonstrations were now and then provided, but the students were not

00:17:27.870 --> 00:17:33.870
compelled to attend them or to be
examined on their content. A new and

00:17:33.870 --> 00:17:38.790
vital feature of this
course was the addition of the student

00:17:38.790 --> 00:17:45.870
proctor to the teaching staff.
Undergraduate aids drawn from earlier

00:17:45.870 --> 00:17:52.620
classes, and under careful supervision,
were employed to help evaluate the

00:17:52.620 --> 00:17:59.130
readiness of our pupils to move up
within the course. And to provide the

00:17:59.130 --> 00:18:07.530
kind of encouragement, understanding, and
direction that were needed by them. The

00:18:07.530 --> 00:18:13.470
effects of our conversion to a different
way of teaching were even better than we

00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:21.240
expected. Student lying, cheating, whining,
and complaining rapidly decreased in

00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:29.730
volume. Alibis, objections, and reports of
unfair treatment were replaced by signs

00:18:29.730 --> 00:18:37.920
of satisfaction, self-respect, and
self-reliance; As well as interest in the

00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:43.650
subject matter taught. The students
reported that they had to work much

00:18:43.650 --> 00:18:49.700
harder than in lecture courses, but
received more personal consideration,

00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:56.010
experienced greater satisfaction, and
achieved a better understanding of the

00:18:56.010 --> 00:19:01.050
concepts treated. When we met these
students in the hallways on the campus

00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:06.150
or in the classroom where they came to
study or be tested,

00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:14.600
we found smiles and friendly greetings.
Approach behavior, rather than avoidance.

00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:21.240
As for the teachers of this course, my
colleagues and myself, no longer was

00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:28.320
there need for self-deception, compromise
of principle, or distortion of our

00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:36.720
records. No longer was there need for
showmanship or classroom tricks. We knew

00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:42.660
what everyone else was doing in the
system, and what was expected of him or

00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:49.200
her at any given time. We knew exactly
what was studied by our pupils,

00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:55.080
and the difficulties with it. Ours as
well as theirs. We knew each student

00:19:55.080 --> 00:20:01.049
individually through the unit tests, the
proctor's records and reports, and

00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:07.019
through personal encounters, even when
there were as many as a hundred students

00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:13.679
in the class. And we knew our proctor's
best of all by virtue of our weekly

00:20:13.679 --> 00:20:21.630
meetings, our daily interactions, and our
regular inspection of their work. This

00:20:21.630 --> 00:20:29.960
was intoxicating stuff for a long time
podium performer. I became a missionary,

00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:36.450
as did my young companion. We began to
spread the word about our conversion

00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:42.720
everywhere. Through articles and journals,
through papers read at meetings, even

00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:50.490
from the vantage point that Comenius had
suggested. A name was given to the new

00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:58.559
religion, PSI - a Personalized System of
Instruction, and commandments were handed

00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:05.700
down to those who wish to follow in our
footsteps. Ralph Waldo Emerson is

00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:11.450
reported to have said, 'If a man can write
a better book, preach a better sermon, or

00:21:11.450 --> 00:21:17.070
will make a better mousetrap than his
neighbor though he builds his house in

00:21:17.070 --> 00:21:23.490
the woods, the world will make a beaten
path to his door.' I was certain that we

00:21:23.490 --> 00:21:29.490
had a better mousetrap, we were living in
a desert version of the woods, and I

00:21:29.490 --> 00:21:34.080
thought that we can now expect the
academic world to be the pathway to our

00:21:34.080 --> 00:21:41.299
door. I was naive. The academic world
they'd scant attention.

00:21:41.299 --> 00:21:49.440
There was no pilgrimage to Arizona State
to see the magic formula applied, just a

00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:54.279
lady from Cuyahoga Community College in
Ohio.

00:21:54.279 --> 00:22:01.539
I wasn't overwhelmed with telephone
calls and I didn't need a secretary to

00:22:01.539 --> 00:22:09.309
answer all my mail. Except for half a
dozen friends, one relative, and some

00:22:09.309 --> 00:22:17.169
former pupils, no one paid much attention
to us. At about this time the president

00:22:17.169 --> 00:22:26.349
of the University asked us to talk about
our system at a faculty assembly. I might

00:22:26.349 --> 00:22:31.450
add here that he called this assembly
solely for the purpose of letting us

00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:38.830
report, which was a mistake as far as I
was concerned. Everyone came there angry

00:22:38.830 --> 00:22:47.200
at me to begin with. We were to speak at
a faculty assembly with an education

00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.580
teacher there as a discussant. I was
delighted.

00:22:51.580 --> 00:22:57.639
I should have been suspicious. Not only
could we tell our colleagues how to

00:22:57.639 --> 00:23:03.609
teach, but we could also make contact
with a School of Education. I was sure

00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:10.839
they would then investigate our project
and give us their support. Again, I was

00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:17.619
naive. The meeting was a non-success. The man from Education disposed of us in

00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:25.026
less than 30 seconds. He said he'd 'never
heard of Joseph Lancaster and the Monitorial Plan,''

00:23:25.026 --> 00:23:30.339
to which I had referred in
hopes of getting support from him. Then

00:23:30.339 --> 00:23:34.839
he talked about some other local
projects in which his interest was much

00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:41.340
greater than in ours. The audience was
equally supportive.

00:23:41.340 --> 00:23:42.860
[Audience laughter]

00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:47.640
One professor made objection to a
careless statement I had made about Mark

00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:54.390
Hopkins. Another asked if what we were
doing was anything like programmed

00:23:54.390 --> 00:24:01.380
instruction. If so, he said, he didn't
like it. A third one, famous on the campus

00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:06.270
for his wit, asked the name of our
control group teacher who would use the

00:24:06.270 --> 00:24:11.820
standard lecture method, so that in the
future he'd know where to send his

00:24:11.820 --> 00:24:20.760
student advisees. my faith in the
mousetrap theory was by then becoming

00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:29.880
weaker along with some of my enthusiasm
for Arizona State but my faith in psi

00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:36.450
remained unshaken so I left the desert
scene and what East to seek my fortune

00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:44.660
I took my panacea with me along with
Willie Adams as tapeworm in the bottle

00:24:44.660 --> 00:24:50.910
the Big Brother theory was the next one
I adopted in my attempt to convert the

00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:57.360
world to psi this was suggested to me
when Professor Sherman my colleague at

00:24:57.360 --> 00:25:03.500
Brasilia and at Arizona State and
professor Ben green a physicist from MIT

00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:08.280
received support from the United States
Office of Education and from the

00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:14.610
Carnegie Foundation of New York for
establishing a Center for personalized

00:25:14.610 --> 00:25:19.950
instruction at Georgetown University in
Washington DC funds were given to the

00:25:19.950 --> 00:25:25.830
center solely for the purpose of
spreading news of psi throughout the

00:25:25.830 --> 00:25:32.580
realm of higher education in this
country the prestige and power of these

00:25:32.580 --> 00:25:39.690
two organizations seemed to me to be
exactly what was needed I felt that it

00:25:39.690 --> 00:25:42.510
would certainly bring about the
conversion of those teachers and

00:25:42.510 --> 00:25:49.410
administrators who had not responded to
our earlier appeals once more however I

00:25:49.410 --> 00:25:55.260
was simple-minded
first of all I overlooked the cardinal

00:25:55.260 --> 00:26:02.010
rule of all such agencies and
institutions never support a project

00:26:02.010 --> 00:26:07.410
unless you can be certain that its
failure or near failure can be

00:26:07.410 --> 00:26:16.140
guaranteed otherwise the agency may lose
its reason for existence and we'll have

00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:23.250
to start all over in some new sphere of
benefaction now in the case of research

00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:29.880
projects this is easily achieved this is
done by the kind of research design that

00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:35.190
you will accept there's no problem there
as for the dissemination of some

00:26:35.190 --> 00:26:41.250
established good like PSI by some
Institute or Center such as the

00:26:41.250 --> 00:26:48.260
Georgetown Center the problem is more
complicated but it can still be solved

00:26:48.260 --> 00:26:53.850
you simply ask the center to be
self-supporting within a given period of

00:26:53.850 --> 00:27:02.370
time this is a sensible requirement on
the surface asking only for the exercise

00:27:02.370 --> 00:27:09.450
of such well accepted virtues as
competency and thrift but in order to

00:27:09.450 --> 00:27:16.020
continue operation the center must make
money and this restricts the number of

00:27:16.020 --> 00:27:21.120
those who will get the message limiting
it to those who can afford to go to

00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:27.840
lectures conferences and workshops to
learn about the new system you can put

00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:34.650
the center into business so to speak and
guarantee is failure in achieving the

00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:41.310
objective you supported the second item
that I overlooked was the establishment

00:27:41.310 --> 00:27:48.120
itself the bureaucracy of Education the
principal purpose of which is to survive

00:27:48.120 --> 00:27:53.930
I did not fully recognize the group
instruction and individual instruction

00:27:53.930 --> 00:28:00.690
call for different supporting frameworks
different dispositions of both space and

00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:05.280
time and different functions of both
clerical and

00:28:05.280 --> 00:28:11.340
straight-a personnel within the
educational institution since the older

00:28:11.340 --> 00:28:16.230
system is the one in power this means
that the teachers who may wish to try

00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:22.680
out psi are generally compelled to
change the plan in one or more respects

00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:29.700
to make it fit within the old supporting
structure with each successive tryout

00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:35.400
the course may come a little closer to
what was there before it may therefore

00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:41.100
come as no surprise to you when I say
that I've never heard of any course in

00:28:41.100 --> 00:28:47.550
any university or college that has been
taught with psi in the way is founders

00:28:47.550 --> 00:28:54.090
intended that it should be there's
always been some modification of the

00:28:54.090 --> 00:29:00.060
plan however small in order to avoid an
open conflict at some point within the

00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:07.410
larger system this may be related to the
fact that the educational establishment

00:29:07.410 --> 00:29:19.860
like the Hydra has many heads or like
the amoeba it has none at all the the

00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:26.310
power exercised by any element of the
whole the president the Dean the faculty

00:29:26.310 --> 00:29:33.360
or any other is highly overrated
that's what my experience tells me the

00:29:33.360 --> 00:29:40.160
would-be pedagogical reformer has no
point of entry into such an institution

00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:48.000
the Dean for example doesn't dare to
tell the faculty how to teach nor does

00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.970
the president the faculty can't agree
and even if it could there are the deans

00:29:53.970 --> 00:30:00.870
and the president to be considered even
the trustees also there's the Registrar

00:30:00.870 --> 00:30:08.280
whom no one dares offend the bursar -
and at one time or another the students

00:30:08.280 --> 00:30:13.680
may be heard from to say this in another
way there is no apparent interface

00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:18.870
between the technology of teaching and
the educational organization

00:30:18.870 --> 00:30:27.030
they would like to serve in spite of all
these obstacles and others progress has

00:30:27.030 --> 00:30:32.700
been made the Georgetown Center for
personalized instruction has now been in

00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:39.800
operation for about six years as time is
running out it's not completely

00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:46.920
self-supporting and will probably not
become so although it could attract new

00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:54.060
money from some other sources in its
lifetime conferences and workshops have

00:30:54.060 --> 00:31:01.820
been held a newsletter has been sent out
a successful journal has been founded

00:31:01.820 --> 00:31:09.180
many speeches have been delivered films
and manuals have been constructed and a

00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:14.970
clearinghouse of information on the
system has been set up in large part

00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:22.140
through the efforts of Professor Sherman
and his dedicated staff it is mainly

00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:27.270
through the efforts of the center that
psi is known throughout the educational

00:31:27.270 --> 00:31:33.810
world today not just in colleges and
universities but in high schools great

00:31:33.810 --> 00:31:39.000
schools trade schools
military training centers and in other

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:45.690
places it is known not only in Brazil
and the United States but in every major

00:31:45.690 --> 00:31:52.530
country of the world many teachers have
been led to psi or some variation of it

00:31:52.530 --> 00:31:58.170
and some of the users have been
influential in getting other teachers to

00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:05.270
follow in their footsteps the intrinsic
merits of the system even when diluted

00:32:05.270 --> 00:32:11.000
have apparently been sufficient to
attract a growing number of disciples in

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:16.290
spite of the obstructions and
constraints that I have mentioned maybe

00:32:16.290 --> 00:32:23.870
it was a combination of the Big Brother
and the mousetrap theory did the job

00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:31.110
a born-again teacher is likely to have
some visions of the future when group

00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:37.560
instruction is no longer with us except
in certain cases such as those of music

00:32:37.560 --> 00:32:44.570
and of sport excuse me

00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:59.580
we're group instruction is no longer
with us I am no exception

00:32:59.580 --> 00:33:06.240
I often dream about the consequences of
introducing such a system as BSI at

00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:12.150
every level of education and in every
sphere making use of all we know about

00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:20.460
the teaching-learning process what would
be the effect on students teachers and

00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:28.320
administrators of our schools on the
policies of admission on our curricular

00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:34.950
requirements on the content and the
structure of our textbooks and on our

00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:40.650
methods of evaluation and record-keeping
even on the structure of our classrooms

00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:48.690
and our schools obviously I cannot
answer all these questions but my

00:33:48.690 --> 00:33:54.180
evangelistic status together with the
data that we now possess enable me to

00:33:54.180 --> 00:34:01.380
touch upon a few first of all I see a
student who does not need to be

00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:08.310
compelled to study or to go to school
these behaviors stem from opportunity

00:34:08.310 --> 00:34:16.290
and desire opportunity is supplied by
parents the community the government

00:34:16.290 --> 00:34:23.220
perhaps desire is the outcome of
challenge and success within the

00:34:23.220 --> 00:34:33.240
learning situation well planned
contingencies of reward lead to willing

00:34:33.240 --> 00:34:40.770
school attendance to a concentrated
study and to a liking for the subject

00:34:40.770 --> 00:34:48.390
matter taught truancy occurs and
compulsion is required only when

00:34:48.390 --> 00:34:55.950
positive contingencies are weak or
absent I see a student who has never

00:34:55.950 --> 00:35:03.810
known the meaning of long termed long
continued academic failure his skills

00:35:03.810 --> 00:35:08.040
have been assessed
all along the line and the tasks

00:35:08.040 --> 00:35:16.430
assigned to him are not beyond his reach
every step that he has made has been

00:35:16.430 --> 00:35:23.580
successful although not always at the
first attempt he has not been passed

00:35:23.580 --> 00:35:30.650
along from course to course from stage
to stage with half completed work

00:35:30.650 --> 00:35:36.200
compounding ignorance and building up
resentment our feelings of inferiority

00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:45.360
as he goes I see a student who has never
been subjected to invidious comparison

00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:54.030
with other students or pointed out to
them as deserving emulation who has

00:35:54.030 --> 00:35:59.760
never struggled to keep up with those
around him or been held back by them

00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:08.100
from advancing who has never seen his
name upon a posted list with a number or

00:36:08.100 --> 00:36:16.290
a letter showing his position on some
arbitrary scale I see a student who

00:36:16.290 --> 00:36:23.480
isn't handicapped in academic ways
because of his participation in athletic

00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:31.140
dramatic or musical endeavors sponsored
by his school because of physical

00:36:31.140 --> 00:36:38.610
advantages disadvantage or of illness or
because of other interruptions that is a

00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:44.150
student who may discontinue any course
of study at any point within it as

00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:50.730
determined by a change of interest a
need for other knowledge or for any

00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:57.030
other reason a student who may return to
his course again and go ahead within it

00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:05.190
after suitable review or other
preparation I see a student who because

00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:10.530
of his accomplishments from early
childhood on likes many kinds of

00:37:10.530 --> 00:37:16.970
knowledge or skill and may readily be
turned through available instruction or

00:37:16.970 --> 00:37:22.529
through the needs of his
munity restate or his nation into any

00:37:22.529 --> 00:37:30.839
one of several satisfying occupations
finally I see a student who because he

00:37:30.839 --> 00:37:36.089
has been guided encouraged and called
upon to meet high standards of

00:37:36.089 --> 00:37:42.630
performance comes to like and to respect
the field of education and those

00:37:42.630 --> 00:37:51.869
associated with it as for the teacher of
the future I see a person with a fresh

00:37:51.869 --> 00:37:58.019
awareness of the teaching function one
who facilitates the learning process in

00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:04.739
others who has examined carefully and in
detail the content of his courses and

00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:12.900
knows more about their strengths and
weaknesses than he usually did before he

00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:17.939
knows more about his pupils about the
problems that they face and the progress

00:38:17.939 --> 00:38:24.359
they are making I see a teacher who's
teaching is exposed not only to his

00:38:24.359 --> 00:38:30.809
pupils and his Proctor's but to anyone
who may inspect his work assignments his

00:38:30.809 --> 00:38:38.249
study questions and his examinations his
materials may be taken from journals or

00:38:38.249 --> 00:38:43.739
from textbooks or from other common
sources but they represent his

00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:50.159
expectations from his pupils and are
open to assessment by his colleagues who

00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:57.419
may want to start where he left off I
see a teacher who may write a textbook

00:38:57.419 --> 00:39:03.809
of his own bit-by-bit
while his course is going on replacing

00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:10.650
parts that do not work and testing out
the new all within the regular working

00:39:10.650 --> 00:39:18.659
days rather than in times for rest and
Recreation I see a teacher who isn't

00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:24.269
loaded down with irrelevant or non
instructional duties such as vocational

00:39:24.269 --> 00:39:31.019
guidance personal counseling
occupational placement or administrative

00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:34.480
work
a teacher's obligations will be thought

00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:41.230
of as fulfilled when he has done his
teaching I see a teacher with a greater

00:39:41.230 --> 00:39:45.880
interest in the technology of teaching
in the practical contribution of

00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:51.160
behavior science through our
understanding of his art the principles

00:39:51.160 --> 00:39:57.190
that are applied today although basic
are of the simplest sort with further

00:39:57.190 --> 00:40:02.830
laboratory research we may expect a
finer grained analysis of the teachers

00:40:02.830 --> 00:40:10.810
functions finally I see a happier better
paid and more efficient teacher who is

00:40:10.810 --> 00:40:17.010
respected and admired by students
colleagues and administrators even

00:40:17.010 --> 00:40:24.400
parents not because of his charisma of
his scholarly or scientific

00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:29.680
contributions only his qualities as a
public speaker or a classroom

00:40:29.680 --> 00:40:38.230
entertainer but because of his success
as a teacher my vision is less clear

00:40:38.230 --> 00:40:42.910
when I look into the future of
administrative function the work of

00:40:42.910 --> 00:40:48.960
presidents Dean's and so on I do however
feel quite sure of one effect that

00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:55.030
individualized instruction such as BSI
will have upon them they will no longer

00:40:55.030 --> 00:41:00.520
need to deal with some of the problems
that currently fill so many of their

00:41:00.520 --> 00:41:06.840
working hours for example they will
spend less time in arbitration over

00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:13.870
instances of plagiarism cheating alleged
in justices of grading and absences from

00:41:13.870 --> 00:41:20.260
class of students or professors they
will not be called upon to deal with

00:41:20.260 --> 00:41:26.140
toga parties sit-down strikes panty
raids marches on the Office of the

00:41:26.140 --> 00:41:31.570
President or dunkings
of the Dean in the campus fountain they

00:41:31.570 --> 00:41:38.040
will not be badgered with positive
petitions to change degree requirements

00:41:38.040 --> 00:41:44.800
fire the football coach smoked marijuana
in the lounges cold political assemblies

00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:49.400
in the gym
play hard rock in the chapel reinstate

00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:55.160
some controversial professor or
eliminate the sexual bias and the

00:41:55.160 --> 00:42:04.250
Masters and the bachelors degrees these
are not the only changes that my version

00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:10.550
my vision of a better world suggested
courses of study for example will differ

00:42:10.550 --> 00:42:16.910
greatly in the amount of content to be
mastered textbooks too will come in

00:42:16.910 --> 00:42:21.770
different sizes and will probably have a
different format more flexible to

00:42:21.770 --> 00:42:29.120
revision interdisciplinary study and
problem oriented projects will increase

00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:35.810
in volume new descriptions of
accomplishment will be needed as well as

00:42:35.810 --> 00:42:43.060
new procedures for guiding students in
their programs rules of matriculation

00:42:43.060 --> 00:42:51.530
practices of registration record-keeping
and tuition payment may be altered large

00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:56.860
gatherings of students will be rare
except perhaps at games and

00:42:56.860 --> 00:43:02.030
entertainments corresponding changes
will be made in the structure of the

00:43:02.030 --> 00:43:07.990
schoolhouse and the classroom in order
to accommodate a steady flow of

00:43:07.990 --> 00:43:14.720
individual students throughout the
working day this dream has been

00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:18.620
restricted mainly to the field of higher
education so-called

00:43:18.620 --> 00:43:26.540
this is where I work for many years and
feel at home or used to and which I dare

00:43:26.540 --> 00:43:32.990
to criticize since I am now retired but
it's not the only area of Education or

00:43:32.990 --> 00:43:37.700
the most important
there are currently fields of elementary

00:43:37.700 --> 00:43:44.420
and secondary education also where the
need for pedagogical reform is just as

00:43:44.420 --> 00:43:52.670
great or greater what would happen if
psi or something like it or employed at

00:43:52.670 --> 00:44:00.180
every teaching level we know today the
system will work with children and the

00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:04.560
earliest grades and it is said that a
project is presently underway to

00:44:04.560 --> 00:44:09.180
introduce the system or a variation of
it throughout the schools of Washington

00:44:09.180 --> 00:44:19.580
DC k K through 12 the story says to a
hundred and sixteen thousand students I

00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:25.800
really cannot believe this suppose that
every child from the first day of his

00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:32.040
schooling on was taught in such a manner
how fast would he go through all the

00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:37.950
current stages what direction would his
studies take once the fundamentals were

00:44:37.950 --> 00:44:43.890
acquired what genetic differences would
suggest themselves if any when equal

00:44:43.890 --> 00:44:49.290
opportunities for learning were
presented what creative products would

00:44:49.290 --> 00:44:53.850
emerge when the individuality of each
student was assured

00:44:53.850 --> 00:44:58.940
what kind of academic leaders would
appear within our schools

00:44:58.940 --> 00:45:06.990
what sort of citizen would emerge I
shall not tax your tolerance any further

00:45:06.990 --> 00:45:12.870
with my dreams or with my missionary
zeal when dr. varlet

00:45:12.870 --> 00:45:19.080
shared his panacea with us with the
citizens of Madrid on that unforgettable

00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:26.270
evening back in nineteen nine he left
our village early in the morning

00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:33.720
he took his magic formula with him and
this tape for him in a bottle he left

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:40.140
many of our families poorer than they
were before he came and none of us kids

00:45:40.140 --> 00:45:46.670
could see a change in Willie Adams I'm
just a little worried or what you'll say

00:45:46.670 --> 00:46:14.660
when I am gone we have a few questions
is there somebody Z something

00:46:43.870 --> 00:46:50.720
that's isn't that nice for that kind of
a statement the country yes I never saw

00:46:50.720 --> 00:47:03.050
her before thank you thank you very much
this reminds me of something I once was

00:47:03.050 --> 00:47:14.090
asked to speak before a very educational
foundation it was did Dan Danforth

00:47:14.090 --> 00:47:19.220
there would have been Danforth Danforth
foundation up near that near Lake

00:47:19.220 --> 00:47:25.160
Michigan and I went there and I I gave a
I thought a very good talk

00:47:25.160 --> 00:47:29.690
and then there was supposed to be the
next morning there was supposed to be a

00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:36.950
panel in which we would discuss what I
had talked about the night before well

00:47:36.950 --> 00:47:40.970
there wasn't any panel there was a
gentleman who was more articulate than I

00:47:40.970 --> 00:47:44.180
could ever hope to be
who was wiser than I could ever imagine

00:47:44.180 --> 00:47:53.750
being and who had it in for psi he
demolished me and the system practically

00:47:53.750 --> 00:48:02.200
entirely until a very lovely young lady
like yourself stood up and said well I

00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:07.610
understand I think what you're saying
but I took a course that way and it was

00:48:07.610 --> 00:48:12.050
the best course I ever had I thank them
profusely I had nothing else to say

00:48:12.050 --> 00:48:15.340
because I couldn't answer him

00:48:28.660 --> 00:48:35.510
yes I can't report much on them these
have happened is you probably know as

00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:42.549
much as I the college four of our
University and Grand Rapids Michigan

00:48:42.549 --> 00:48:51.020
it teaches entirely by psi I know the
Dean of that College talked I think his

00:48:51.020 --> 00:48:57.380
name is Bob talked I think his name it I
have never been to the place I've heard

00:48:57.380 --> 00:49:02.450
about it and it keeps on going
which is at least something but I can't

00:49:02.450 --> 00:49:09.980
tell you much about it there's also at
the Texas University of Texas and the

00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:18.349
Permian Basin it is possible to go
through the university a la psi or it's

00:49:18.349 --> 00:49:22.700
possible to go through in more standard
fashion there which is related to a

00:49:22.700 --> 00:49:24.500
question that was asked me this
afternoon

00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:28.279
can you have the two work together they
apparently do there they can go through

00:49:28.279 --> 00:49:34.220
students can go through with psi and I
believe this I can't say for sure but I

00:49:34.220 --> 00:49:38.240
believe it's possible for them upon the
completion of a single course to move to

00:49:38.240 --> 00:49:49.789
the next at that time now again I I wish
I'm I'm very sorry but I can't I don't

00:49:49.789 --> 00:49:53.809
keep up with things very well I can't I
live in Aiken South Carolina I never get

00:49:53.809 --> 00:49:58.970
any news from anywhere that's the best I
can do

00:49:58.970 --> 00:50:05.299
there may be other places I pray there
are we had a department of physics at at

00:50:05.299 --> 00:50:10.279
Brasilia where it was entirely psi I
don't know what happened to it because

00:50:10.279 --> 00:50:18.549
they lost a lot of teachers too and that
explosion down there yes

00:50:36.630 --> 00:50:42.160
well you know psy is them is the is the
symbol for psychology and I felt very

00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:46.510
self-conscious when when I got that psi
there everybody goes for some kind of an

00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:50.830
acronym these days and I thought that's
very good now they'll say sigh and it'll

00:50:50.830 --> 00:50:54.550
be lots easier than personalized system
of instruction and I never liked

00:50:54.550 --> 00:51:45.150
personalized anyway I found it in a book

00:52:07.470 --> 00:52:11.650
well you know I think I've learned
something in giving speech and at first

00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:15.040
I used to talk about psi in a way that
sent people to sleep and they learn

00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:19.420
nothing I finally decided that they
ought to make it more like a sermon that

00:52:19.420 --> 00:52:23.170
I ought to deal with things that are
extremely that everybody will surely

00:52:23.170 --> 00:52:28.540
understand and repeat it frequently and
it just kind of get in there and and and

00:52:28.540 --> 00:52:32.710
be inspiring tell little stories with it
and people would pay a lot more

00:52:32.710 --> 00:52:37.450
attention and would keep awake they
might not learn this much but they would

00:52:37.450 --> 00:52:42.130
be an incited to look further and I
think maybe that's the way a lecture

00:52:42.130 --> 00:52:50.589
ought to work now that's I know I think
it is more like I'd really begin to

00:52:50.589 --> 00:52:56.410
think of myself as a kind of a as a kind
of a of a preacher you know you make it

00:52:56.410 --> 00:53:02.500
simple and so many people will
understand I didn't that's not a

00:53:02.500 --> 00:53:09.190
Christmas well I tell you Comenius I
there was a man I got an office when I

00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:12.010
went to Arizona State they gave me an
office that had been it had been

00:53:12.010 --> 00:53:16.270
occupied by an education professor and
he had a lot of books that he left there

00:53:16.270 --> 00:53:22.390
and one of them was called the history
of education I've forgotten by whom it

00:53:22.390 --> 00:53:28.119
was written but I I looked into it and I
I saw pictures in it and I stopped and I

00:53:28.119 --> 00:53:32.079
read the under the pictures and I read
about the mana toriel plan by Joseph

00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:39.460
Lancaster I read about Andrew somebody
else and and I and I read about Comenius

00:53:39.460 --> 00:53:44.200
and it gave a list of all those things
that I mentioned and this is what he

00:53:44.200 --> 00:53:50.470
prescribed in 1638 he said if you do it
this way that's the best way never do

00:53:50.470 --> 00:53:55.119
anything individualized teach to all
your students just like this and I talk

00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:59.410
just exactly like that and I was doing
the best I knew how to do but I wasn't

00:53:59.410 --> 00:54:03.910
very
if I think now that I was a failure but

00:54:03.910 --> 00:54:09.040
it took me quite a while quite a while
to come to that conclusion I resisted

00:54:09.040 --> 00:54:12.450
that as long as I could

00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:22.450
well it depends what you're comparing me
with it but but now no I think I was a

00:54:22.450 --> 00:54:26.680
failure I think I could have managed
eight out of an eight or nine out of ten

00:54:26.680 --> 00:54:32.080
rather than one out of ten with a degree
of understanding that I got them because

00:54:32.080 --> 00:54:36.609
I had a very select group of students
they were selected from the very upper

00:54:36.609 --> 00:54:40.810
crust of the of the high school
population and the prep school

00:54:40.810 --> 00:54:45.760
population and even with all that lovely
selection and the heredity and

00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:50.170
everything that went with it I only got
about 10% of them that got up to the

00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:56.020
a-level in my course and that was year
after year and it wasn't they weren't

00:54:56.020 --> 00:55:01.540
motivated when they came in they
appeared to be they lost it very soon

00:55:01.540 --> 00:55:07.060
after they got in I guess but anyway
they should have done better and I think

00:55:07.060 --> 00:55:11.230
I would do better now I would say or
that same group now I'll get nine out of

00:55:11.230 --> 00:55:19.000
ten and they won't all know the same
degree because kids learn more than you

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:23.950
teach them about the course and about
the subject matter you know that we know

00:55:23.950 --> 00:55:29.380
that they learn more than that and on
any anybody's estimation some other

00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:33.670
person's estimation they may be better
but in terms of meeting the requirements

00:55:33.670 --> 00:55:38.859
of the course they were there and I
would now give them full credit I would

00:55:38.859 --> 00:55:43.089
not try to estimate anything beyond that
not for the benefit of Phi Beta Kappa

00:55:43.089 --> 00:55:45.660
even

00:56:06.140 --> 00:56:12.450
yes yeah the answer is yes but I think
what we ought to do is to start earlier

00:56:12.450 --> 00:56:15.989
and they would find it many more
satisfactions in other places than

00:56:15.989 --> 00:56:20.519
attempting to go to graduate education I
think if we taught many things if many

00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:24.180
things were taught with success in
either direction you go there no longer

00:56:24.180 --> 00:56:30.779
be that the feeling that I failed to get
up there I chose to do this I decided to

00:56:30.779 --> 00:56:36.269
do that I preferred this I think we
would eliminate a lot more failures to

00:56:36.269 --> 00:56:41.430
go on to our people who desire to go on
to graduate school if we gave proper

00:56:41.430 --> 00:56:48.119
education and and and and Phil I think
many jobs are just as good jobs in the

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:54.960
world as being a PhD and teaching or
whatever one does now instead of

00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:02.400
teaching with a PhD but but but I I
think that if we did have no

00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:07.680
discrimination of the sort that says
you're in a lowly occupation because you

00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:12.779
couldn't make it in a better one
I think things would be a lot different

00:57:12.779 --> 00:57:17.819
maybe maybe we would choose different
things and go in that direction or in

00:57:17.819 --> 00:57:22.200
some other direction why should we
necessarily feel that we must go where

00:57:22.200 --> 00:57:28.049
some elite little group would go or
maybe you only a few would want to go on

00:57:28.049 --> 00:57:34.859
to graduate what we call graduate school
that's a guess I don't know I can't of

00:57:34.859 --> 00:57:38.390
course I can't answer your question

