[Fred Keller] It's very hard to get started after a an introduction like that. Because I'm gonna
be very sober about things now, and tell you that a year or so ago I was struck
by the idea that I had become a sort of a born-again, itinerant preacher in the
field of education. I had confessed the error of my early ways. I had found a
better way of life, and I was telling folks about it. And also, I dreamed of
wonderful things to come. When I told a friend about this, he smiled said, 'Don't
be too sure. Perhaps you're just a huckster. You
really think you have a panacea, don't you? And you're trying to sell it
everywhere.' I have forgotten my reply. But I did remember Dr. Verpalatte. When I was
a boy, I lived for a period of time in Madrid, New York. We had never heard of
Madrid for several years. One year, Dr. Verpalette came to our town to give
a wonderful speech in the town hall, which we all attended free. He started
out by throwing nickels and dimes to all us kids up front. Then he told us about
his early youth in the great city where he lived a life of sin and shame. He told
us how early one morning, after a night of debauchery,
he found salvation. I think it was on the steps
of some municipal building. He said it was how he decided, then and there, to
spend the rest of his life working for the good of mankind. Then he told about a
secret remedy he had discovered, something in a large bottle. I think he
said he got it from some Indians. A
remedy there was a cure for many ills. In another bottle, he showed us the tapeworm
that had come out of Willie Adams's stomach after Willie drank the remedy.
All of us kids knew that Willie wasn't very bright, and now we understood why it
must have been a tapeworm that he carried in his stomach. Then Dr.
Verpalette let almost everyone in the town hall have a bottle of his remedy
for $1. Some of the early buyers even got $10 back. My father said next morning
that the remedy tasted pretty good but he didn't give any to me. Tonight, I'm
going to tell you, first, of all my early vices as a teacher, a college teacher.
Then, I'll describe my conversion to a better way of life. After that,
I'll tell you about the remedy I discovered, some of its effects. And
finally, I'll discuss a missionary work and treat you to a few of my dreams
about the future. 45 years of my life were spent as a faculty member in six
different institutions, and for the most part, as a classroom teacher. In that time,
I did many things that I now perceive as evil. Of which I feel ashamed, all of
which I cannot be proud. And they all stemmed
the worship of false gods, particularly John Comenius (1592-1670). So-called
educational reformer, whom I followed blindly for many years. According to this
great Moravian, 'A teacher should never concern himself with individual
instruction. Rather he should stand before his class on an elevated platform,
keeping all the students within his sight and forcing them to pay attention.
At the beginning of his talk, he should present his topic briefly in an
attractive manner or by asking a set of questions. Later on, within the lecture, he
should bring up interesting items and practical examples to engage the
interests of his scholars. And he [shouldn't] interrupt his discourse, now and
then, with questions like, "How did I get to this point?".
He should praise the student who gives the best answer, so that others will try
to emulate him. Finally when the lecture is ended I quote, "the scholar will be
given leave to ask questions on any point they wish explained."' For years, I
tried to follow this prescription. I lectured to my classes from a place
where I could see each face before me. I gave an outline in advance or I posed
some critical questions. I included amusing items and practical examples. I
asked a question, now and then, to keep my class alert. I summarized when I was done,
and sometimes, offered to answer questions. I did everything that Comenius
suggested. There were some things that Comenius
didn't cover. He didn't tell us, for example, about the outcome of his
teaching, about the distribution of his scholars grades from A to F, or the
number of those who achieved distinction later on, or how they ranked him as a
teacher on some questionnaire. The Golden Age of pupil and teacher evaluation had
not yet been ushered in. So maybe I am wrong in keeping and tracing some of my
own immoral conduct to his door. Perhaps I ought to blame it on the people who
came later in the history of education. However that may be, I did a lot of
sinning. Some of my sins were little ones. When I lectured to my classes, for
example, I occasionally permitted the impression to be gathered that I knew
things which I really didn't. Sometimes, I played down issues or made light of
problems on which I was really unprepared to speak. And some of the
quotation marks in my lectures came to be neglected with repeated use. Nothing
very serious, sometimes when I saw a question coming in the classroom which
might disclose my lack of knowledge, I would look the other way. If the
questioner insisted, I might put him off till after class suggesting that the
matter was so esoteric or so complicated as to be unsuitable for general
discussion. By the time the class was done, he might have to hurry to another,
perhaps I would thought of a better answer, or I would have found some other
method of escape. I lied to my students from time to time.
I said that 'I expected all of them to pass my course,' when I knew this would
not happen. I told them 'I would like it if they all got A's,' when I wouldn't have
liked it at all. I said that 'anyone could understand, excuse me, the content of the
course,' when I knew that there were sections of the textbook that I couldn't
understand myself. I told them I would 'treat them fairly,' after which I tampered
with a distribution of their grades, making ABCDEF discriminations
that I could not possibly defend. I used tricky questions, now and then, to
separate the sheep from the goats, an interesting figure to apply to students.
And I denied my pupils the opportunity to defend their answers or I used a
classroom vote to decide upon the changing of an individual students grade.
There are other things I did of which I cannot be proud.
I used histrionics more and more as the years went by. And the factual material
of my lectures was diluted. I left out more of the hard parts and I placed a
greater stress upon the textbook, even though this meant that I, or at least or
more commonly my assistant, would have to read it with more care. I introduced more
demonstrations too within the classroom hour. And I provided outside speakers
whenever I was able. The evaluation of my pupils work was not a simple matter.
There were administrative guidelines that I had to follow. There was the good
opinion of my colleagues to consider. There was my own predisposition with
respect to students whom I knew quite well. And finally, there was the actual
performance of the students on the examination. It may be that the letter
grades which I finally assigned did not conform precisely to what my students
knew about their courses. In addition to my immoral or unethical behavior, I
engaged in self-deception. I assumed that I was a successful teacher if 10% of my
class received an A. If I send a student, now and then, to graduate school. If
enrollment in my class continued to be large. Or if I came out well on some
popularity poll. I closed my eyes to evidence of my failure, and I listened
avidly to stories told of teachers who were obviously worse than I was. Worst of
all, was the effect I had upon my pupils. I taught a number of them to cheat, to
lie, to steal, to bribe, to wheedle, and to plagiarize on various occasions. I taught
some of them to hate the educational process and everything connected with it.
I taught a few of them to be show-offish and pedantic. These were sometimes my
potential teachers.
And I led many of them to feel inferior for many years to come.
All this, I did in the name of service to society from which when I retired I
would receive a pension and the sunshine of an occasional letter of appreciation,
which would make it all worthwhile. My conversion from this way of life to one
of greater usefulness came in 1963, when I was almost ready for retirement. It
came as the result of freedom given by the University of Brasilia to four
Psychology professors to give up older ways of teaching and to develop
something better. One evening by my fireside in the New York City suburb,
exhausted by our efforts to come up with something new, the four of us ,the two
Brazilians and the two North Americans, experienced a vision a sort of [fully a
cot.] We imagined a course of study in which each student could advance step by
step through successive elements of knowledge or of skill from the beginning
of the course until it ended. We saw him moving at his own pace, rather than in
lockstep, but meeting our requirements fully as they went along. As shown by his
performance on a unit test. And all his work was done when each unit had been
mastered, no matter how much time it took or how many tests were needed. We saw the
student as successful, worthy of an A, or its equivalent. This meant only that the
course requirements had been met. No attempt was made to find what else the
student knew, beyond that which the course had called for.
We saw the classroom lecture in our vision. Not as something to be swallowed
by the student two or three times weekly and coughed up later in half-digested
form, but as something to be used on rare occasions to display the teacher style
and dealing with his subject matter to impress or to inspire his pupils. No
student would be tested on the content of these lectures or on that of any
demonstrations that the instructor might provide. In 1964 and 65, our dream was
realized in part at the University of Brasilia in an introductory laboratory
course on the Principles of Behavior. And plans were underway for its extension to
higher level courses, first in Physics, then Mathematics, and to other disciplines
than ours. Then the program was suddenly halted by governmental action. 250 or
more professors were dismissed or left the university in protest. Our two
Brazilian collaborators were among the first. At Arizona State University in
1965, the two Americans of the group had better luck. The dream came true for them
in another elementary course of study. Again, it was a one-term, self-paced
course composed of 20 units where the unit mastery requirement, and again the
grade of A, was given to every student who completed all the units with success.
Lectures and demonstrations were now and then provided, but the students were not
compelled to attend them or to be examined on their content. A new and
vital feature of this course was the addition of the student
proctor to the teaching staff. Undergraduate aids drawn from earlier
classes, and under careful supervision, were employed to help evaluate the
readiness of our pupils to move up within the course. And to provide the
kind of encouragement, understanding, and direction that were needed by them. The
effects of our conversion to a different way of teaching were even better than we
expected. Student lying, cheating, whining, and complaining rapidly decreased in
volume. Alibis, objections, and reports of unfair treatment were replaced by signs
of satisfaction, self-respect, and self-reliance; As well as interest in the
subject matter taught. The students reported that they had to work much
harder than in lecture courses, but received more personal consideration,
experienced greater satisfaction, and achieved a better understanding of the
concepts treated. When we met these students in the hallways on the campus
or in the classroom where they came to study or be tested,
we found smiles and friendly greetings. Approach behavior, rather than avoidance.
As for the teachers of this course, my colleagues and myself, no longer was
there need for self-deception, compromise of principle, or distortion of our
records. No longer was there need for showmanship or classroom tricks. We knew
what everyone else was doing in the system, and what was expected of him or
her at any given time. We knew exactly what was studied by our pupils,
and the difficulties with it. Ours as well as theirs. We knew each student
individually through the unit tests, the proctor's records and reports, and
through personal encounters, even when there were as many as a hundred students
in the class. And we knew our proctor's best of all by virtue of our weekly
meetings, our daily interactions, and our regular inspection of their work. This
was intoxicating stuff for a long time podium performer. I became a missionary,
as did my young companion. We began to spread the word about our conversion
everywhere. Through articles and journals, through papers read at meetings, even
from the vantage point that Comenius had suggested. A name was given to the new
religion, PSI - a Personalized System of Instruction, and commandments were handed
down to those who wish to follow in our footsteps. Ralph Waldo Emerson is
reported to have said, 'If a man can write a better book, preach a better sermon, or
will make a better mousetrap than his neighbor though he builds his house in
the woods, the world will make a beaten path to his door.' I was certain that we
had a better mousetrap, we were living in a desert version of the woods, and I
thought that we can now expect the academic world to be the pathway to our
door. I was naive. The academic world they'd scant attention.
There was no pilgrimage to Arizona State to see the magic formula applied, just a
lady from Cuyahoga Community College in Ohio.
I wasn't overwhelmed with telephone calls and I didn't need a secretary to
answer all my mail. Except for half a dozen friends, one relative, and some
former pupils, no one paid much attention to us. At about this time the president
of the University asked us to talk about our system at a faculty assembly. I might
add here that he called this assembly solely for the purpose of letting us
report, which was a mistake as far as I was concerned. Everyone came there angry
at me to begin with. We were to speak at a faculty assembly with an education
teacher there as a discussant. I was delighted.
I should have been suspicious. Not only could we tell our colleagues how to
teach, but we could also make contact with a School of Education. I was sure
they would then investigate our project and give us their support. Again, I was
naive. The meeting was a non-success. The man from Education disposed of us in
less than 30 seconds. He said he'd 'never heard of Joseph Lancaster and the Monitorial Plan,''
to which I had referred in hopes of getting support from him. Then
he talked about some other local projects in which his interest was much
greater than in ours. The audience was equally supportive.
[Audience laughter]
One professor made objection to a careless statement I had made about Mark
Hopkins. Another asked if what we were doing was anything like programmed
instruction. If so, he said, he didn't like it. A third one, famous on the campus
for his wit, asked the name of our control group teacher who would use the
standard lecture method, so that in the future he'd know where to send his
student advisees. my faith in the mousetrap theory was by then becoming
weaker along with some of my enthusiasm for Arizona State but my faith in psi
remained unshaken so I left the desert scene and what East to seek my fortune
I took my panacea with me along with Willie Adams as tapeworm in the bottle
the Big Brother theory was the next one I adopted in my attempt to convert the
world to psi this was suggested to me when Professor Sherman my colleague at
Brasilia and at Arizona State and professor Ben green a physicist from MIT
received support from the United States Office of Education and from the
Carnegie Foundation of New York for establishing a Center for personalized
instruction at Georgetown University in Washington DC funds were given to the
center solely for the purpose of spreading news of psi throughout the
realm of higher education in this country the prestige and power of these
two organizations seemed to me to be exactly what was needed I felt that it
would certainly bring about the conversion of those teachers and
administrators who had not responded to our earlier appeals once more however I
was simple-minded first of all I overlooked the cardinal
rule of all such agencies and institutions never support a project
unless you can be certain that its failure or near failure can be
guaranteed otherwise the agency may lose its reason for existence and we'll have
to start all over in some new sphere of benefaction now in the case of research
projects this is easily achieved this is done by the kind of research design that
you will accept there's no problem there as for the dissemination of some
established good like PSI by some Institute or Center such as the
Georgetown Center the problem is more complicated but it can still be solved
you simply ask the center to be self-supporting within a given period of
time this is a sensible requirement on the surface asking only for the exercise
of such well accepted virtues as competency and thrift but in order to
continue operation the center must make money and this restricts the number of
those who will get the message limiting it to those who can afford to go to
lectures conferences and workshops to learn about the new system you can put
the center into business so to speak and guarantee is failure in achieving the
objective you supported the second item that I overlooked was the establishment
itself the bureaucracy of Education the principal purpose of which is to survive
I did not fully recognize the group instruction and individual instruction
call for different supporting frameworks different dispositions of both space and
time and different functions of both clerical and
straight-a personnel within the educational institution since the older
system is the one in power this means that the teachers who may wish to try
out psi are generally compelled to change the plan in one or more respects
to make it fit within the old supporting structure with each successive tryout
the course may come a little closer to what was there before it may therefore
come as no surprise to you when I say that I've never heard of any course in
any university or college that has been taught with psi in the way is founders
intended that it should be there's always been some modification of the
plan however small in order to avoid an open conflict at some point within the
larger system this may be related to the fact that the educational establishment
like the Hydra has many heads or like the amoeba it has none at all the the
power exercised by any element of the whole the president the Dean the faculty
or any other is highly overrated that's what my experience tells me the
would-be pedagogical reformer has no point of entry into such an institution
the Dean for example doesn't dare to tell the faculty how to teach nor does
the president the faculty can't agree and even if it could there are the deans
and the president to be considered even the trustees also there's the Registrar
whom no one dares offend the bursar - and at one time or another the students
may be heard from to say this in another way there is no apparent interface
between the technology of teaching and the educational organization
they would like to serve in spite of all these obstacles and others progress has
been made the Georgetown Center for personalized instruction has now been in
operation for about six years as time is running out it's not completely
self-supporting and will probably not become so although it could attract new
money from some other sources in its lifetime conferences and workshops have
been held a newsletter has been sent out a successful journal has been founded
many speeches have been delivered films and manuals have been constructed and a
clearinghouse of information on the system has been set up in large part
through the efforts of Professor Sherman and his dedicated staff it is mainly
through the efforts of the center that psi is known throughout the educational
world today not just in colleges and universities but in high schools great
schools trade schools military training centers and in other
places it is known not only in Brazil and the United States but in every major
country of the world many teachers have been led to psi or some variation of it
and some of the users have been influential in getting other teachers to
follow in their footsteps the intrinsic merits of the system even when diluted
have apparently been sufficient to attract a growing number of disciples in
spite of the obstructions and constraints that I have mentioned maybe
it was a combination of the Big Brother and the mousetrap theory did the job
a born-again teacher is likely to have some visions of the future when group
instruction is no longer with us except in certain cases such as those of music
and of sport excuse me
we're group instruction is no longer with us I am no exception
I often dream about the consequences of introducing such a system as BSI at
every level of education and in every sphere making use of all we know about
the teaching-learning process what would be the effect on students teachers and
administrators of our schools on the policies of admission on our curricular
requirements on the content and the structure of our textbooks and on our
methods of evaluation and record-keeping even on the structure of our classrooms
and our schools obviously I cannot answer all these questions but my
evangelistic status together with the data that we now possess enable me to
touch upon a few first of all I see a student who does not need to be
compelled to study or to go to school these behaviors stem from opportunity
and desire opportunity is supplied by parents the community the government
perhaps desire is the outcome of challenge and success within the
learning situation well planned contingencies of reward lead to willing
school attendance to a concentrated study and to a liking for the subject
matter taught truancy occurs and compulsion is required only when
positive contingencies are weak or absent I see a student who has never
known the meaning of long termed long continued academic failure his skills
have been assessed all along the line and the tasks
assigned to him are not beyond his reach every step that he has made has been
successful although not always at the first attempt he has not been passed
along from course to course from stage to stage with half completed work
compounding ignorance and building up resentment our feelings of inferiority
as he goes I see a student who has never been subjected to invidious comparison
with other students or pointed out to them as deserving emulation who has
never struggled to keep up with those around him or been held back by them
from advancing who has never seen his name upon a posted list with a number or
a letter showing his position on some arbitrary scale I see a student who
isn't handicapped in academic ways because of his participation in athletic
dramatic or musical endeavors sponsored by his school because of physical
advantages disadvantage or of illness or because of other interruptions that is a
student who may discontinue any course of study at any point within it as
determined by a change of interest a need for other knowledge or for any
other reason a student who may return to his course again and go ahead within it
after suitable review or other preparation I see a student who because
of his accomplishments from early childhood on likes many kinds of
knowledge or skill and may readily be turned through available instruction or
through the needs of his munity restate or his nation into any
one of several satisfying occupations finally I see a student who because he
has been guided encouraged and called upon to meet high standards of
performance comes to like and to respect the field of education and those
associated with it as for the teacher of the future I see a person with a fresh
awareness of the teaching function one who facilitates the learning process in
others who has examined carefully and in detail the content of his courses and
knows more about their strengths and weaknesses than he usually did before he
knows more about his pupils about the problems that they face and the progress
they are making I see a teacher who's teaching is exposed not only to his
pupils and his Proctor's but to anyone who may inspect his work assignments his
study questions and his examinations his materials may be taken from journals or
from textbooks or from other common sources but they represent his
expectations from his pupils and are open to assessment by his colleagues who
may want to start where he left off I see a teacher who may write a textbook
of his own bit-by-bit while his course is going on replacing
parts that do not work and testing out the new all within the regular working
days rather than in times for rest and Recreation I see a teacher who isn't
loaded down with irrelevant or non instructional duties such as vocational
guidance personal counseling occupational placement or administrative
work a teacher's obligations will be thought
of as fulfilled when he has done his teaching I see a teacher with a greater
interest in the technology of teaching in the practical contribution of
behavior science through our understanding of his art the principles
that are applied today although basic are of the simplest sort with further
laboratory research we may expect a finer grained analysis of the teachers
functions finally I see a happier better paid and more efficient teacher who is
respected and admired by students colleagues and administrators even
parents not because of his charisma of his scholarly or scientific
contributions only his qualities as a public speaker or a classroom
entertainer but because of his success as a teacher my vision is less clear
when I look into the future of administrative function the work of
presidents Dean's and so on I do however feel quite sure of one effect that
individualized instruction such as BSI will have upon them they will no longer
need to deal with some of the problems that currently fill so many of their
working hours for example they will spend less time in arbitration over
instances of plagiarism cheating alleged in justices of grading and absences from
class of students or professors they will not be called upon to deal with
toga parties sit-down strikes panty raids marches on the Office of the
President or dunkings of the Dean in the campus fountain they
will not be badgered with positive petitions to change degree requirements
fire the football coach smoked marijuana in the lounges cold political assemblies
in the gym play hard rock in the chapel reinstate
some controversial professor or eliminate the sexual bias and the
Masters and the bachelors degrees these are not the only changes that my version
my vision of a better world suggested courses of study for example will differ
greatly in the amount of content to be mastered textbooks too will come in
different sizes and will probably have a different format more flexible to
revision interdisciplinary study and problem oriented projects will increase
in volume new descriptions of accomplishment will be needed as well as
new procedures for guiding students in their programs rules of matriculation
practices of registration record-keeping and tuition payment may be altered large
gatherings of students will be rare except perhaps at games and
entertainments corresponding changes will be made in the structure of the
schoolhouse and the classroom in order to accommodate a steady flow of
individual students throughout the working day this dream has been
restricted mainly to the field of higher education so-called
this is where I work for many years and feel at home or used to and which I dare
to criticize since I am now retired but it's not the only area of Education or
the most important there are currently fields of elementary
and secondary education also where the need for pedagogical reform is just as
great or greater what would happen if psi or something like it or employed at
every teaching level we know today the system will work with children and the
earliest grades and it is said that a project is presently underway to
introduce the system or a variation of it throughout the schools of Washington
DC k K through 12 the story says to a hundred and sixteen thousand students I
really cannot believe this suppose that every child from the first day of his
schooling on was taught in such a manner how fast would he go through all the
current stages what direction would his studies take once the fundamentals were
acquired what genetic differences would suggest themselves if any when equal
opportunities for learning were presented what creative products would
emerge when the individuality of each student was assured
what kind of academic leaders would appear within our schools
what sort of citizen would emerge I shall not tax your tolerance any further
with my dreams or with my missionary zeal when dr. varlet
shared his panacea with us with the citizens of Madrid on that unforgettable
evening back in nineteen nine he left our village early in the morning
he took his magic formula with him and this tape for him in a bottle he left
many of our families poorer than they were before he came and none of us kids
could see a change in Willie Adams I'm just a little worried or what you'll say
when I am gone we have a few questions is there somebody Z something
that's isn't that nice for that kind of a statement the country yes I never saw
her before thank you thank you very much this reminds me of something I once was
asked to speak before a very educational foundation it was did Dan Danforth
there would have been Danforth Danforth foundation up near that near Lake
Michigan and I went there and I I gave a I thought a very good talk
and then there was supposed to be the next morning there was supposed to be a
panel in which we would discuss what I had talked about the night before well
there wasn't any panel there was a gentleman who was more articulate than I
could ever hope to be who was wiser than I could ever imagine
being and who had it in for psi he demolished me and the system practically
entirely until a very lovely young lady like yourself stood up and said well I
understand I think what you're saying but I took a course that way and it was
the best course I ever had I thank them profusely I had nothing else to say
because I couldn't answer him
yes I can't report much on them these have happened is you probably know as
much as I the college four of our University and Grand Rapids Michigan
it teaches entirely by psi I know the Dean of that College talked I think his
name is Bob talked I think his name it I have never been to the place I've heard
about it and it keeps on going which is at least something but I can't
tell you much about it there's also at the Texas University of Texas and the
Permian Basin it is possible to go through the university a la psi or it's
possible to go through in more standard fashion there which is related to a
question that was asked me this afternoon
can you have the two work together they apparently do there they can go through
students can go through with psi and I believe this I can't say for sure but I
believe it's possible for them upon the completion of a single course to move to
the next at that time now again I I wish I'm I'm very sorry but I can't I don't
keep up with things very well I can't I live in Aiken South Carolina I never get
any news from anywhere that's the best I can do
there may be other places I pray there are we had a department of physics at at
Brasilia where it was entirely psi I don't know what happened to it because
they lost a lot of teachers too and that explosion down there yes
well you know psy is them is the is the symbol for psychology and I felt very
self-conscious when when I got that psi there everybody goes for some kind of an
acronym these days and I thought that's very good now they'll say sigh and it'll
be lots easier than personalized system of instruction and I never liked
personalized anyway I found it in a book
well you know I think I've learned something in giving speech and at first
I used to talk about psi in a way that sent people to sleep and they learn
nothing I finally decided that they ought to make it more like a sermon that
I ought to deal with things that are extremely that everybody will surely
understand and repeat it frequently and it just kind of get in there and and and
be inspiring tell little stories with it and people would pay a lot more
attention and would keep awake they might not learn this much but they would
be an incited to look further and I think maybe that's the way a lecture
ought to work now that's I know I think it is more like I'd really begin to
think of myself as a kind of a as a kind of a of a preacher you know you make it
simple and so many people will understand I didn't that's not a
Christmas well I tell you Comenius I there was a man I got an office when I
went to Arizona State they gave me an office that had been it had been
occupied by an education professor and he had a lot of books that he left there
and one of them was called the history of education I've forgotten by whom it
was written but I I looked into it and I I saw pictures in it and I stopped and I
read the under the pictures and I read about the mana toriel plan by Joseph
Lancaster I read about Andrew somebody else and and I and I read about Comenius
and it gave a list of all those things that I mentioned and this is what he
prescribed in 1638 he said if you do it this way that's the best way never do
anything individualized teach to all your students just like this and I talk
just exactly like that and I was doing the best I knew how to do but I wasn't
very if I think now that I was a failure but
it took me quite a while quite a while to come to that conclusion I resisted
that as long as I could
well it depends what you're comparing me with it but but now no I think I was a
failure I think I could have managed eight out of an eight or nine out of ten
rather than one out of ten with a degree of understanding that I got them because
I had a very select group of students they were selected from the very upper
crust of the of the high school population and the prep school
population and even with all that lovely selection and the heredity and
everything that went with it I only got about 10% of them that got up to the
a-level in my course and that was year after year and it wasn't they weren't
motivated when they came in they appeared to be they lost it very soon
after they got in I guess but anyway they should have done better and I think
I would do better now I would say or that same group now I'll get nine out of
ten and they won't all know the same degree because kids learn more than you
teach them about the course and about the subject matter you know that we know
that they learn more than that and on any anybody's estimation some other
person's estimation they may be better but in terms of meeting the requirements
of the course they were there and I would now give them full credit I would
not try to estimate anything beyond that not for the benefit of Phi Beta Kappa
even
yes yeah the answer is yes but I think what we ought to do is to start earlier
and they would find it many more satisfactions in other places than
attempting to go to graduate education I think if we taught many things if many
things were taught with success in either direction you go there no longer
be that the feeling that I failed to get up there I chose to do this I decided to
do that I preferred this I think we would eliminate a lot more failures to
go on to our people who desire to go on to graduate school if we gave proper
education and and and and Phil I think many jobs are just as good jobs in the
world as being a PhD and teaching or whatever one does now instead of
teaching with a PhD but but but I I think that if we did have no
discrimination of the sort that says you're in a lowly occupation because you
couldn't make it in a better one I think things would be a lot different
maybe maybe we would choose different things and go in that direction or in
some other direction why should we necessarily feel that we must go where
some elite little group would go or maybe you only a few would want to go on
to graduate what we call graduate school that's a guess I don't know I can't of
course I can't answer your question