WEBVTT

1
00:00:03.089 --> 00:00:07.490 A:middle L:90%
Um, my name is Bob Appelman. Um, I go

2
00:00:07.490 --> 00:00:11.769 A:middle L:90%
by Dr. Bob at the university because um and I

3
00:00:11.769 --> 00:00:15.509 A:middle L:90%
grew up in Bloomington Indiana, because my father was

4
00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:19.370 A:middle L:90%
on the voice faculty at the School of Music in

5
00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:24.109 A:middle L:90%
in Bloomington at IU so he was Dr. Appleman

6
00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.329 A:middle L:90%
and I didn't want to be that. So they

7
00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:28.910 A:middle L:90%
wanted to be Dr. Bob instead. So that's where,

8
00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:31.050 A:middle L:90%
that that's what I tell all my students,

9
00:00:31.050 --> 00:00:34.299 A:middle L:90%
because they seem hesitant to call me that at first,

10
00:00:34.310 --> 00:00:37.710 A:middle L:90%
especially the foreign students. And so, but

11
00:00:37.710 --> 00:00:42.380 A:middle L:90%
it it becomes has become my handle now. Um

12
00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.740 A:middle L:90%
and I have had such a long history with Bloomington,

13
00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:53.159 A:middle L:90%
all of the university and then also

14
00:00:53.170 --> 00:00:59.880 A:middle L:90%
um the Audio Visual Center. Um and it started,

15
00:00:59.890 --> 00:01:04.670 A:middle L:90%
actually that history started in 1951 when I first

16
00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:08.790 A:middle L:90%
came to Bloomington when my dad came from North Texas

17
00:01:08.790 --> 00:01:12.370 A:middle L:90%
State Teachers College to get his degree at Bloomington.

18
00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:18.120 A:middle L:90%
And at that time, there were army barracks called

19
00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:25.180 A:middle L:90%
Hoosier Courts in the where, you know, graduate

20
00:01:25.180 --> 00:01:26.859 A:middle L:90%
students could get a place to live with their family.

21
00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:32.450 A:middle L:90%
And uh lo and behold, there was this

22
00:01:32.459 --> 00:01:34.719 A:middle L:90%
family next to right across the hall from us,

23
00:01:34.730 --> 00:01:38.400 A:middle L:90%
uh and he was called Ed Richardson. And so

24
00:01:38.409 --> 00:01:42.290 A:middle L:90%
we grew up, I grew up playing with the

25
00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:44.480 A:middle L:90%
Richardson Joanne and, you know. We knew that

26
00:01:44.489 --> 00:01:48.530 A:middle L:90%
family and then we moved to another building and then

27
00:01:48.530 --> 00:01:51.250 A:middle L:90%
lo and behold Mac Fleming was in that building.

28
00:01:51.250 --> 00:01:55.060 A:middle L:90%
So I became best friends with his son and so

29
00:01:55.069 --> 00:02:00.129 A:middle L:90%
I wasn't even doing anything with audiovisual or instructional design,

30
00:02:00.129 --> 00:02:02.629 A:middle L:90%
although I was always interested in photography and music

31
00:02:02.629 --> 00:02:07.379 A:middle L:90%
and things like that because of my upbringing. Um,

32
00:02:07.449 --> 00:02:12.449 A:middle L:90%
so one of the things, and uh you know,

33
00:02:12.449 --> 00:02:14.930 A:middle L:90%
just to make this short, my dad told

34
00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:16.479 A:middle L:90%
me immediately that I was not a singer because that

35
00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:19.580 A:middle L:90%
you are either born with a voice or not,

36
00:02:19.580 --> 00:02:23.180 A:middle L:90%
and I was not. So, I got into instrumental

37
00:02:23.189 --> 00:02:25.110 A:middle L:90%
work uh and I kind of thought I would be

38
00:02:25.110 --> 00:02:30.370 A:middle L:90%
going into music. Um, because of the school there and

39
00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:30.939 A:middle L:90%
all the people that I knew, and I was

40
00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:35.189 A:middle L:90%
already playing in all the ensembles and things like that,

41
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:39.259 A:middle L:90%
but um I found out I'd have to master

42
00:02:39.259 --> 00:02:44.090 A:middle L:90%
piano and I was not good at piano at all.

43
00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:46.849 A:middle L:90%
I was more of a visual designer. Uh

44
00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:49.689 A:middle L:90%
so I went over into the department as a school

45
00:02:49.689 --> 00:02:53.639 A:middle L:90%
of fine arts there and got my undergraduate degree in

46
00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:58.229 A:middle L:90%
graphic design. And then when I went out,

47
00:02:58.229 --> 00:03:00.280 A:middle L:90%
went out pounding the pavement to try to sell my

48
00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:05.460 A:middle L:90%
portfolio. I saw these little cubbyholes that they stuck

49
00:03:05.469 --> 00:03:07.930 A:middle L:90%
graphic designers into, and I tried to ask

50
00:03:07.930 --> 00:03:09.900 A:middle L:90%
well, what I really want to be is

51
00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.340 A:middle L:90%
a film director, because I want to deal with

52
00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:19.599 A:middle L:90%
something that merges all the art forms together into, um

53
00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.199 A:middle L:90%
you know. I wanted to do something emerges all

54
00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:27.000 A:middle L:90%
the art forms together uh into a communications package.

55
00:03:28.870 --> 00:03:32.349 A:middle L:90%
And, I wanted to be very interested in, Um

56
00:03:32.509 --> 00:03:35.629 A:middle L:90%
I mean, since graphic design, I was very

57
00:03:35.629 --> 00:03:43.990 A:middle L:90%
much focused on um getting, you know, well

58
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.439 A:middle L:90%
all the art forms blended and motion picture, motion

59
00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:51.159 A:middle L:90%
picture production was the thing that I said, I

60
00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:53.250 A:middle L:90%
really want to do. So I left Chicago's pavement

61
00:03:53.250 --> 00:03:55.629 A:middle L:90%
and then, you know, trying to get a

62
00:03:55.629 --> 00:03:59.389 A:middle L:90%
portfolio sold and and they all said, well,

63
00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:00.629 A:middle L:90%
you know, you got to have experience in film

64
00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:03.490 A:middle L:90%
production to do film production. So I said,

65
00:04:03.490 --> 00:04:05.789 A:middle L:90%
well where the heck do you go to get experience

66
00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:09.240 A:middle L:90%
in film production? So then I say, I

67
00:04:09.250 --> 00:04:13.800 A:middle L:90%
heard about this audiovisual center that had a very large

68
00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.180 A:middle L:90%
film production unit, one of the largest film libraries

69
00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:21.290 A:middle L:90%
in the world. And uh, you could actually

70
00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:26.720 A:middle L:90%
get a degree that uh, you know, gave

71
00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:29.600 A:middle L:90%
you all the experience you need. So, at that

72
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:30.529 A:middle L:90%
time then I guys said I'm going to get a

73
00:04:30.529 --> 00:04:35.230 A:middle L:90%
Master's and of AV Communications. And so then I

74
00:04:35.230 --> 00:04:41.259 A:middle L:90%
went into the department there and at that time,

75
00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.269 A:middle L:90%
[inaudible] Olie Larsson was running the show at

76
00:04:45.269 --> 00:04:46.769 A:middle L:90%
that time, which he always ran the show wherever

77
00:04:46.769 --> 00:04:50.560 A:middle L:90%
he was. He had figured out ways of gathering

78
00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:55.220 A:middle L:90%
buildings that the university didn't want. And so we

79
00:04:55.220 --> 00:04:59.269 A:middle L:90%
now occupied all these sort of decrepit buildings that were

80
00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:02.949 A:middle L:90%
falling apart Mitchell Hall, [inaudible], Rogers on third street and all

81
00:05:02.949 --> 00:05:06.449 A:middle L:90%
this other stuff. But heck, I came in there

82
00:05:06.449 --> 00:05:11.279 A:middle L:90%
first and had to have uh, I had to

83
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:16.620 A:middle L:90%
have an acceptance of kind of more of a ghettoish

84
00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:19.759 A:middle L:90%
type of living style by where I started living.

85
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:24.069 A:middle L:90%
So this was no different for me And uh,

86
00:05:24.069 --> 00:05:25.790 A:middle L:90%
actually kind of liked it. We had a

87
00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:30.230 A:middle L:90%
great community, tremendous bustle of activity. Um,

88
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:33.029 A:middle L:90%
and so I really dove in, found out that

89
00:05:33.029 --> 00:05:38.110 A:middle L:90%
we had wonderful talent in the Audiovisual Center at that

90
00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:42.490 A:middle L:90%
time. 16 faculty, of which two thirds were

91
00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:50.870 A:middle L:90%
all practicing craft professionals. Um, Burrow, Blaine

92
00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:54.480 A:middle L:90%
and you know, all of the, you know,

93
00:05:54.490 --> 00:06:00.579 A:middle L:90%
even jerry kemp and uh, Hynek came in.

94
00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:05.110 A:middle L:90%
The Hynek entry was an interesting one along with

95
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:09.600 A:middle L:90%
all of the other people with black because at this

96
00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.529 A:middle L:90%
particular time we were getting steeped in. How do

97
00:06:12.529 --> 00:06:15.910 A:middle L:90%
you put a film together? That's a good instructional

98
00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:18.300 A:middle L:90%
film. And the idea came out maybe if there

99
00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:24.149 A:middle L:90%
was some front end analysis that could be done before

100
00:06:24.149 --> 00:06:26.379 A:middle L:90%
you write the script, even though we know how

101
00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:30.370 A:middle L:90%
to execute it beautifully, maybe the script would be

102
00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.019 A:middle L:90%
better and maybe the outcome would be better. So

103
00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:36.589 A:middle L:90%
then we ended up bringing in a lot of the

104
00:06:36.589 --> 00:06:41.870 A:middle L:90%
theorists into the Audiovisual Center at that particular time.

105
00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:46.220 A:middle L:90%
Um, it was interesting, they didn't necessarily associate

106
00:06:46.220 --> 00:06:49.220 A:middle L:90%
with the production people as much as all the production

107
00:06:49.220 --> 00:06:54.870 A:middle L:90%
people were working together, but they tried to start

108
00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:57.529 A:middle L:90%
learning what the heck we were doing and where they

109
00:06:57.529 --> 00:07:00.339 A:middle L:90%
could fit in. So they started research and of

110
00:07:00.339 --> 00:07:02.100 A:middle L:90%
course we were in a very behaviorist IQ mode at

111
00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:05.319 A:middle L:90%
that particular time, it was skinner, doing everything

112
00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:10.199 A:middle L:90%
in Ohio with all the uh, skin Aryan machines.

113
00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.810 A:middle L:90%
And so, uh, we ended up doing

114
00:07:12.810 --> 00:07:15.720 A:middle L:90%
films of rat mazes and students in that. And

115
00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:19.930 A:middle L:90%
uh and and there was a whole industry wrapped around

116
00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:26.160 A:middle L:90%
that well to make a long story short now on

117
00:07:26.170 --> 00:07:29.410 A:middle L:90%
where a C a E C T fits into that.

118
00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:33.329 A:middle L:90%
I could go ahead and be a film director

119
00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:39.569 A:middle L:90%
but I needed to use equipment and we found that

120
00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.689 A:middle L:90%
people didn't know how to use equipment. And so

121
00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:46.269 A:middle L:90%
now teachers didn't know how to use equipment and they

122
00:07:46.269 --> 00:07:48.449 A:middle L:90%
didn't, if we made a film they couldn't show

123
00:07:48.449 --> 00:07:49.930 A:middle L:90%
it because they didn't know how to use the film

124
00:07:49.930 --> 00:07:53.620 A:middle L:90%
projector or they didn't know how to use overhead.

125
00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:55.500 A:middle L:90%
So they didn't know how to do this other stuff.

126
00:07:55.509 --> 00:07:58.870 A:middle L:90%
And so all of a sudden the focus started

127
00:07:58.870 --> 00:08:03.339 A:middle L:90%
to be on on sort of teacher support. And

128
00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.029 A:middle L:90%
then there was this thing called the novel workshop.

129
00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.519 A:middle L:90%
And that was where we had the National Audiovisual Association

130
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:15.959 A:middle L:90%
come to indiana. So being a graduate student there

131
00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.009 A:middle L:90%
at that time, I was given a huge amount

132
00:08:18.009 --> 00:08:20.569 A:middle L:90%
of work to do to try to get all this

133
00:08:20.569 --> 00:08:24.500 A:middle L:90%
workshop working and run through everything. So we had

134
00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:28.319 A:middle L:90%
people coming from all over uh to be able to

135
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:33.220 A:middle L:90%
get instruction how to integrate this technology in their teaching

136
00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:37.340 A:middle L:90%
practices. I mean we had wonderful things like how

137
00:08:37.340 --> 00:08:39.659 A:middle L:90%
to do a rubber cement li lift and how,

138
00:08:39.669 --> 00:08:45.370 A:middle L:90%
you know putting uh you know, our thermal transparencies

139
00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:48.769 A:middle L:90%
in one place. But then doing an ammonia dish.

140
00:08:48.769 --> 00:08:50.519 A:middle L:90%
So we had places where we dropped these things

141
00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:54.309 A:middle L:90%
into ammonia sensitive. I mean it was really weird.

142
00:08:54.309 --> 00:08:56.909 A:middle L:90%
We had at that time we had 15 sections

143
00:08:56.909 --> 00:09:01.289 A:middle L:90%
of photography. I mean four let's see. We

144
00:09:01.289 --> 00:09:03.730 A:middle L:90%
had about eight dark rooms in this place. I

145
00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:07.799 A:middle L:90%
mean it was this huge machine that was how to

146
00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.509 A:middle L:90%
crank out people that know knew how to use the

147
00:09:11.509 --> 00:09:16.580 A:middle L:90%
technology but it was a hospital internship uh type of

148
00:09:16.580 --> 00:09:22.549 A:middle L:90%
environment because the athletic department the whole campus needed services

149
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:24.940 A:middle L:90%
also on how to do this. So you're the

150
00:09:24.940 --> 00:09:31.399 A:middle L:90%
students were actively producing product for the university plus learning

151
00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.769 A:middle L:90%
how to do it how to design for it.

152
00:09:33.779 --> 00:09:37.820 A:middle L:90%
And my mentor was Howard levy who was trying to

153
00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:39.429 A:middle L:90%
also tie in message designed of course and I got

154
00:09:39.429 --> 00:09:45.960 A:middle L:90%
with Mac Fleming and Howard both. Um And so

155
00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.389 A:middle L:90%
my eyes started opening up wider and then came you

156
00:09:52.389 --> 00:09:54.789 A:middle L:90%
know a ec conventions or the conference. Well at

157
00:09:54.789 --> 00:09:58.149 A:middle L:90%
that time that was I had a workshop that I

158
00:09:58.149 --> 00:10:00.590 A:middle L:90%
thought was big. But then when we went to

159
00:10:00.590 --> 00:10:03.250 A:middle L:90%
the A. C. T. Convention we had

160
00:10:03.250 --> 00:10:05.440 A:middle L:90%
the whole Nava group there that was going to have

161
00:10:05.450 --> 00:10:09.389 A:middle L:90%
all of the vendors from all over the world were

162
00:10:09.389 --> 00:10:13.159 A:middle L:90%
presenting how their how they were going to be bringing

163
00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.929 A:middle L:90%
on new technologies. And I said oh my gosh

164
00:10:16.929 --> 00:10:18.509 A:middle L:90%
we're not even doing right with the ones we got

165
00:10:18.509 --> 00:10:22.690 A:middle L:90%
how we gonna handle these new ones. And so

166
00:10:22.700 --> 00:10:26.059 A:middle L:90%
uh presenting how we were using the technology and then

167
00:10:26.059 --> 00:10:30.240 A:middle L:90%
going to the exhibits that were there was just a

168
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.730 A:middle L:90%
huge event every single year for all the students.

169
00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:37.669 A:middle L:90%
So I started in 1966 going to A. C. T.

170
00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.000 A:middle L:90%
Conferences. Um and I saw amazing

171
00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.909 A:middle L:90%
things like our whole industry was kind of look like

172
00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:48.110 A:middle L:90%
how do you make large signs? Well naturally use

173
00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:50.080 A:middle L:90%
a rico uh and you've got a template and you

174
00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.419 A:middle L:90%
can do that and I go to this conference and

175
00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:58.700 A:middle L:90%
I see a robotic right Rajko maker and so you

176
00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.044 A:middle L:90%
put it in there and this automatic thing draws the

177
00:11:01.044 --> 00:11:05.965 A:middle L:90%
Rajkot stylists around and creates it. I said we're

178
00:11:05.965 --> 00:11:07.945 A:middle L:90%
out of a job folks. We we've already you

179
00:11:07.945 --> 00:11:11.514 A:middle L:90%
know it's already happening were being replaced by these robots.

180
00:11:11.524 --> 00:11:15.945 A:middle L:90%
Little did I know about the computer industry coming

181
00:11:15.945 --> 00:11:18.804 A:middle L:90%
down the pike that was going to replace an awful

182
00:11:18.804 --> 00:11:22.289 A:middle L:90%
lot of the things that we do um Or that

183
00:11:22.289 --> 00:11:24.899 A:middle L:90%
we had to be the ones now doing that instead

184
00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:28.659 A:middle L:90%
of the other things. Um The thing that abc

185
00:11:28.659 --> 00:11:35.659 A:middle L:90%
t. Became important in was the linkages to other

186
00:11:35.659 --> 00:11:39.740 A:middle L:90%
universities and the networking because we met other people and

187
00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:41.799 A:middle L:90%
found out that they were either doing the same thing

188
00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:45.190 A:middle L:90%
we were doing or my gosh we're really leading the

189
00:11:45.190 --> 00:11:48.019 A:middle L:90%
field in a lot of the things that are going

190
00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:52.299 A:middle L:90%
on and uh that's when I started to be aware

191
00:11:52.299 --> 00:11:56.590 A:middle L:90%
of the administration that was running abc at the time

192
00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.759 A:middle L:90%
were mostly some indian university people that word and that's

193
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.769 A:middle L:90%
why it was called the indiana mafia that was,

194
00:12:07.779 --> 00:12:11.720 A:middle L:90%
had a presence there and we were we were graduating

195
00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:18.879 A:middle L:90%
the most students. Uh so it really became a

196
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:22.759 A:middle L:90%
partnership between A. E. C. T.

197
00:12:24.350 --> 00:12:31.470 A:middle L:90%
And uh what what the field needed. Um And

198
00:12:31.470 --> 00:12:33.629 A:middle L:90%
A. C. T. Was our tool our

199
00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:39.179 A:middle L:90%
implementation to be able to spread the word on techniques,

200
00:12:39.190 --> 00:12:41.769 A:middle L:90%
integration strategies, teaching strategies, all of these

201
00:12:41.769 --> 00:12:46.399 A:middle L:90%
things. Um That that was going to be really

202
00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.110 A:middle L:90%
having an impact on the U. S. Not

203
00:12:50.110 --> 00:12:52.809 A:middle L:90%
only that some of the projects that we're working on,

204
00:12:52.809 --> 00:12:56.350 A:middle L:90%
we were bringing in a lot of different foreign

205
00:12:56.350 --> 00:13:00.840 A:middle L:90%
students to be able to get trained at iU and

206
00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.049 A:middle L:90%
from Africa from Taiwan from the Thailand we had special

207
00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:07.850 A:middle L:90%
arrangements with all of them, some of us would

208
00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:09.779 A:middle L:90%
be going there and some of them we bring people

209
00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:18.529 A:middle L:90%
there um as academia is um Change is always in

210
00:13:18.529 --> 00:13:22.909 A:middle L:90%
the wind. So when the new president came in

211
00:13:22.909 --> 00:13:28.679 A:middle L:90%
and found out that our uh educational library was generating

212
00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:33.210 A:middle L:90%
about$1 million dollars a year uh that wasn't going

213
00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:41.039 A:middle L:90%
into the university pool, then we ended up having

214
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:45.919 A:middle L:90%
to be split into our academic control and have that

215
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:50.889 A:middle L:90%
move over and ironically at about the same time that

216
00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:54.389 A:middle L:90%
that was happening or a little bit before Nava was

217
00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:58.909 A:middle L:90%
also splitting up. And so the conference itself then

218
00:13:58.909 --> 00:14:05.190 A:middle L:90%
lost the Navajo exhibit and we just had the pedagogical

219
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:13.230 A:middle L:90%
uh stress. So it's been it's been an interesting

220
00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:18.970 A:middle L:90%
path of kind of imploding in one area but then

221
00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:22.029 A:middle L:90%
moving over and building up in another area uh and

222
00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:30.779 A:middle L:90%
the struggle can still continues. Mhm. Um In

223
00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:31.769 A:middle L:90%
terms of the of the evolution of A. C. T.

224
00:14:31.769 --> 00:14:35.230 A:middle L:90%
Sort of talked about in the context

225
00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:37.309 A:middle L:90%
of the indiana experience, what can you say more

226
00:14:37.309 --> 00:14:41.279 A:middle L:90%
globally? You've had leadership positions in the, yes

227
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.679 A:middle L:90%
I've been um I've had I've been past president of

228
00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:52.370 A:middle L:90%
the multimedia the media design and production division at that

229
00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:58.330 A:middle L:90%
time I was involved in by being in that position.

230
00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:03.019 A:middle L:90%
I was also working with uh the foundation and

231
00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:09.309 A:middle L:90%
also the board at trying to look at uh what

232
00:15:09.309 --> 00:15:16.309 A:middle L:90%
the role of divisions were and how fragmented the the

233
00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:20.990 A:middle L:90%
divisions became all you know and and when we were

234
00:15:20.990 --> 00:15:26.440 A:middle L:90%
into trying to own multi I keep saying multimedia production

235
00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:31.000 A:middle L:90%
because I'm now on the board of the multimedia production

236
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.539 A:middle L:90%
division. So that's the new division that's come back

237
00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:39.009 A:middle L:90%
up, that's replaced the old one. And I'm

238
00:15:39.009 --> 00:15:48.639 A:middle L:90%
still I'm still not happy with the the sense of

239
00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.600 A:middle L:90%
family that um that A. C. T.

240
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.269 A:middle L:90%
Has among its members. And I've I've always been

241
00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:03.049 A:middle L:90%
one to stress that the process that we're dealing with

242
00:16:03.059 --> 00:16:07.870 A:middle L:90%
is one of collaboration and integration and and and working

243
00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:11.350 A:middle L:90%
together as a team. And I think that the

244
00:16:11.350 --> 00:16:15.899 A:middle L:90%
divisions have a tendency to break that apart and to

245
00:16:15.899 --> 00:16:23.059 A:middle L:90%
have just some um operation and focus just within the

246
00:16:23.059 --> 00:16:27.360 A:middle L:90%
division and look at saying well the division next to

247
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.740 A:middle L:90%
me is not really doing the same thing that we're

248
00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:33.570 A:middle L:90%
doing. But in reality if we ever get into

249
00:16:33.570 --> 00:16:41.279 A:middle L:90%
the um business of creating something it takes every single

250
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:42.710 A:middle L:90%
division. If A. C. T. Itself

251
00:16:42.710 --> 00:16:48.870 A:middle L:90%
was given the grant to produce something and then said

252
00:16:48.870 --> 00:16:51.730 A:middle L:90%
okay now all you divisions need to work together in

253
00:16:51.730 --> 00:16:53.929 A:middle L:90%
this process for doing the best what you'd be doing.

254
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:57.580 A:middle L:90%
I think it'd be hard to be able to

255
00:16:57.580 --> 00:17:00.909 A:middle L:90%
get everybody to sit around the table. But if

256
00:17:00.909 --> 00:17:04.309 A:middle L:90%
I go in the in the public sector as I

257
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:08.680 A:middle L:90%
then went on to produce films and industrial films and

258
00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:12.769 A:middle L:90%
all other kinds of multi multi image projects of which

259
00:17:12.769 --> 00:17:18.319 A:middle L:90%
nobody remembers what multi images anymore. Uh And as

260
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:25.900 A:middle L:90%
soon as I saw a Macintosh displayed I couldn't believe

261
00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:29.190 A:middle L:90%
the graphic interface and how easy it was to do

262
00:17:29.190 --> 00:17:33.450 A:middle L:90%
things. And then teachers became the ones doing it

263
00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:36.259 A:middle L:90%
and all of a sudden we weren't the ones doing

264
00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:37.910 A:middle L:90%
it. So it was it was it's been an

265
00:17:37.910 --> 00:17:41.230 A:middle L:90%
interesting path. And A. C. T.

266
00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:45.839 A:middle L:90%
Has had to really struggle with how do you support

267
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.990 A:middle L:90%
and encourage all of this because it's uh in a

268
00:17:48.990 --> 00:17:52.549 A:middle L:90%
lot of cases there's not a lot of happy campers

269
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.700 A:middle L:90%
in one place or another. As the as the

270
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.259 A:middle L:90%
new thing shifts from one thing to the other.

271
00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:03.180 A:middle L:90%
So I'd like to be able to work at a

272
00:18:03.190 --> 00:18:07.789 A:middle L:90%
much more inter division collaboration. Uh And of course

273
00:18:07.789 --> 00:18:11.910 A:middle L:90%
I've been working with all the old timers. Mendel

274
00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:14.759 A:middle L:90%
Sherman, I've been working with uh he's in his

275
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.140 A:middle L:90%
nineties now and his um last conversation I had with

276
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:22.450 A:middle L:90%
him was which editors that I think we're best on

277
00:18:22.450 --> 00:18:26.650 A:middle L:90%
the new digital stuff because he's making movies for his

278
00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:30.390 A:middle L:90%
retirement community and uh you know, we don't stop,

279
00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:36.230 A:middle L:90%
we just keep on going and I'm sure that's

280
00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:37.259 A:middle L:90%
the case with a lot of us that are just

281
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:41.200 A:middle L:90%
so immersed in our own particular focus that we just

282
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.750 A:middle L:90%
want to keep on pushing. So that's good.

283
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:51.279 A:middle L:90%
And that's why this association is so important because uh

284
00:18:51.289 --> 00:18:56.410 A:middle L:90%
there's a lot of knowledge collectively within this organization,

285
00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:59.220 A:middle L:90%
all from the people that have been here before that

286
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:02.289 A:middle L:90%
say, yeah, that's a new media. So

287
00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:06.299 A:middle L:90%
um why is it that I should say like for

288
00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:07.759 A:middle L:90%
instance, the new thing is games and simulations that

289
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.319 A:middle L:90%
are out there. Well, we went through the

290
00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:15.859 A:middle L:90%
process of film, would film, encourage and and

291
00:19:15.859 --> 00:19:18.049 A:middle L:90%
make education better. Oh no, because video just

292
00:19:18.049 --> 00:19:19.819 A:middle L:90%
came in, video is going to be the one

293
00:19:19.819 --> 00:19:22.559 A:middle L:90%
that make everything better. And then every new media

294
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.779 A:middle L:90%
that comes online, every learning environment that does and

295
00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.900 A:middle L:90%
we are one organization that is supposed to be able

296
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:36.170 A:middle L:90%
to see that it's not the media that's going to

297
00:19:36.170 --> 00:19:38.440 A:middle L:90%
do it. It's still the darn good instruction and

298
00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.640 A:middle L:90%
implementation of it, that's going to be whether it's

299
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.259 A:middle L:90%
a deciding factor, even clark and Kozma went on

300
00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:48.529 A:middle L:90%
and on about that battle, but nobody took,

301
00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:52.240 A:middle L:90%
nobody said it's what you do with the media that's

302
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.740 A:middle L:90%
important. Not the media Kozma was trying to say

303
00:19:56.740 --> 00:19:59.160 A:middle L:90%
some of that stuff, but uh, you know,

304
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:00.609 A:middle L:90%
we we get caught up in these banters.

305
00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:04.690 A:middle L:90%
Uh, but all the media studies that went on,

306
00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:07.970 A:middle L:90%
they never talked about which media they talk.

307
00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.500 A:middle L:90%
What was the attributes of the media And this is

308
00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:12.279 A:middle L:90%
where where did message design go? I mean,

309
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.000 A:middle L:90%
that's what I grew up on with Mac and Howard

310
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.910 A:middle L:90%
levy and now where is message design in this whole

311
00:20:19.910 --> 00:20:22.779 A:middle L:90%
process? Because it's a critical thing that makes it

312
00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:27.190 A:middle L:90%
work. And then we are having now sort of

313
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.740 A:middle L:90%
an insurgence on just the word design. So there

314
00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:34.390 A:middle L:90%
is a design process and, and we're trying to

315
00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:37.700 A:middle L:90%
get a division called design division, you know,

316
00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:41.349 A:middle L:90%
and everyone's kind of take that word and dropping it

317
00:20:41.349 --> 00:20:45.440 A:middle L:90%
across what they're doing and I agree that we are

318
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.440 A:middle L:90%
all doing design. We just are working on different

319
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:52.430 A:middle L:90%
aspects of the process. And uh, if we

320
00:20:52.430 --> 00:20:56.250 A:middle L:90%
talk to each other more and and bridge our thoughts

321
00:20:56.250 --> 00:21:00.859 A:middle L:90%
and look at iterative models of development, um,

322
00:21:00.369 --> 00:21:04.119 A:middle L:90%
that's something that this organization is going to be one

323
00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.730 A:middle L:90%
to be able to support. And the way that

324
00:21:07.730 --> 00:21:12.319 A:middle L:90%
I think that might be happening is that we are

325
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:22.160 A:middle L:90%
providing more showcases of actual product and cases that worked

326
00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:25.329 A:middle L:90%
and when you go back and think about it.

327
00:21:25.339 --> 00:21:27.539 A:middle L:90%
The only thing that we've had with our academic support

328
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:33.470 A:middle L:90%
has been publications and it's very difficult to look at

329
00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:37.930 A:middle L:90%
any publication or study and really understand what that product

330
00:21:37.930 --> 00:21:42.069 A:middle L:90%
look like that they're testing and what the implementation context

331
00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:45.369 A:middle L:90%
was, what really happened during that. It's not

332
00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:49.910 A:middle L:90%
documented. But if you document a case study rigorously

333
00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:52.940 A:middle L:90%
enough you'll pick up some of that stuff. So

334
00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:56.880 A:middle L:90%
both D. N. D. And media production

335
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:03.799 A:middle L:90%
division are having awards for the best case scenarios that

336
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.430 A:middle L:90%
they can show that learning occurred out of that.

337
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:08.039 A:middle L:90%
And so we are gonna have maybe a journal,

338
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:11.450 A:middle L:90%
a design journal, that's a case study journal.

339
00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:14.750 A:middle L:90%
We're going to have these awards. So I could

340
00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:15.960 A:middle L:90%
see in the future that A. C. T.

341
00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:18.730 A:middle L:90%
Is going to have a place that you need

342
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:23.190 A:middle L:90%
to go to find out what's working and that would

343
00:22:23.190 --> 00:22:26.950 A:middle L:90%
be. That's what I think the best case scenario

344
00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:30.750 A:middle L:90%
would be because I don't see it happening in the

345
00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:33.490 A:middle L:90%
site conferences and some of these others. Um and

346
00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:37.349 A:middle L:90%
so maybe that's how we could be unique and stand

347
00:22:37.349 --> 00:22:40.049 A:middle L:90%
out in the field, which is what it was

348
00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:42.539 A:middle L:90%
always the problem as our ebbs and flows of money

349
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.319 A:middle L:90%
that have happened to hold things together. I feel

350
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.279 A:middle L:90%
us on a little growth spurt right now the wave

351
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.019 A:middle L:90%
is starting to swell and maybe even crest. So

352
00:22:55.029 --> 00:23:00.119 A:middle L:90%
uh we've had good attendance at this conference and hopefully

353
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.940 A:middle L:90%
when people go back they'll say boy I really did

354
00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:07.069 A:middle L:90%
learn a lot and they'll encourage everybody else to come

355
00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:12.250 A:middle L:90%
back. Somebody surfing the web or told about

356
00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:15.450 A:middle L:90%
A. C. T. Hits the site finds the

357
00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:19.519 A:middle L:90%
history makers. And we have a series of little

358
00:23:19.529 --> 00:23:25.680 A:middle L:90%
sound biting sort of remarks about why a new career

359
00:23:25.690 --> 00:23:30.000 A:middle L:90%
professional or a gratitude should be interested in being involved

360
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:30.990 A:middle L:90%
in A. C. T. What I would

361
00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:34.809 A:middle L:90%
say that it is that one time where you can

362
00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:41.619 A:middle L:90%
talk, go to and meet um practitioners that are

363
00:23:41.630 --> 00:23:48.950 A:middle L:90%
talking about the micro level analysis of the design process

364
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.349 A:middle L:90%
in whichever air either instructional strategies, context analysis,

365
00:23:52.349 --> 00:23:57.569 A:middle L:90%
evaluation development, media production, implementation teaching. There

366
00:23:57.569 --> 00:24:00.599 A:middle L:90%
are people here that are really doing it and talking

367
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:06.500 A:middle L:90%
about the difficulties uh of getting it done correctly.

368
00:24:07.089 --> 00:24:11.700 A:middle L:90%
And um so that's a lot different from going to

369
00:24:11.710 --> 00:24:15.059 A:middle L:90%
a conference where you have papers presented on studies,

370
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.849 A:middle L:90%
you don't get to talk to them and they usually

371
00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:22.539 A:middle L:90%
don't go into the detail that's necessary. So uh

372
00:24:22.549 --> 00:24:27.180 A:middle L:90%
networking here to actual people that are doing the same

373
00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:33.099 A:middle L:90%
thing you're doing in another location. And that even

374
00:24:33.099 --> 00:24:37.089 A:middle L:90%
is setting up collaboration uh is what I think is

375
00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:37.710 A:middle L:90%
going to make a A. C. T.

376
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:45.410 A:middle L:90%
A real mecca to come to anything else you'd like

377
00:24:45.410 --> 00:24:51.680 A:middle L:90%
to say well I don't know what my crystal ball

378
00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:57.039 A:middle L:90%
is relatively foggy in terms of so much of the

379
00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.920 A:middle L:90%
new technologies, the mobile technologies, the new students

380
00:25:00.930 --> 00:25:06.339 A:middle L:90%
all of this stuff. I don't know that it's

381
00:25:06.339 --> 00:25:11.589 A:middle L:90%
necessary for us to be responsible for making it work.

382
00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.579 A:middle L:90%
Um for a number of reasons it's very complex

383
00:25:15.579 --> 00:25:18.000 A:middle L:90%
and you can't get access to a lot of the

384
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.369 A:middle L:90%
things that you need to get access to to incorporated

385
00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:26.309 A:middle L:90%
into your teaching. I think that um we are

386
00:25:26.309 --> 00:25:29.690 A:middle L:90%
going to have to step back and look at things

387
00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:33.359 A:middle L:90%
that are happening and really be maybe some leaders in

388
00:25:33.369 --> 00:25:41.319 A:middle L:90%
suggesting possible combinations. Uh And the only reason that

389
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.220 A:middle L:90%
I say we need to step back is because I

390
00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:48.950 A:middle L:90%
think the whole instructional design field is being challenged to

391
00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:53.799 A:middle L:90%
be to flex and two we we have been having

392
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.670 A:middle L:90%
things which originally started with Dick and Carry model and

393
00:25:56.670 --> 00:26:00.210 A:middle L:90%
then now we go to uh any of the other

394
00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:02.819 A:middle L:90%
A C. T. S. Even the addie

395
00:26:02.819 --> 00:26:06.650 A:middle L:90%
model is in is perceived initially as being a linear

396
00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:10.769 A:middle L:90%
process. Linear processes are out the window. You

397
00:26:10.769 --> 00:26:14.000 A:middle L:90%
can't do it that way. So, how how

398
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:18.059 A:middle L:90%
do you define what we do if we're taking an

399
00:26:18.059 --> 00:26:22.230 A:middle L:90%
iterative development model and I'm gonna start with evaluation initially

400
00:26:22.230 --> 00:26:26.119 A:middle L:90%
as being a linear process, linear processes are out

401
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.660 A:middle L:90%
the window, you can't do it that way.

402
00:26:29.670 --> 00:26:33.680 A:middle L:90%
So how how do you define what we do if

403
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:38.269 A:middle L:90%
we're taking an iterative development model and I'm gonna start

404
00:26:38.269 --> 00:26:44.900 A:middle L:90%
with evaluation and I spent a lot of time with

405
00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:47.829 A:middle L:90%
T. A. G since he's in indiana and

406
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:52.450 A:middle L:90%
he is probably the the worst salesman for A.C.T.

407
00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:56.170 A:middle L:90%
Because he says you guys are all

408
00:26:56.180 --> 00:27:02.430 A:middle L:90%
going the wrong direction. Um And his point is

409
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:06.809 A:middle L:90%
that uh we're not paying attention to the news types

410
00:27:06.809 --> 00:27:11.390 A:middle L:90%
of students and the fact that we're trying to uh

411
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.279 A:middle L:90%
codify the process too closely, We're trying to say

412
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.460 A:middle L:90%
this is this is the formula as if this whole

413
00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:22.119 A:middle L:90%
process we're in is the science and if you do

414
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.440 A:middle L:90%
these things this way is going to work. So

415
00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:30.509 A:middle L:90%
we need to be able to look at the field

416
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.200 A:middle L:90%
and start acting ourselves as if we are going to

417
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.119 A:middle L:90%
be adaptive and flexible and dynamic and not hold on

418
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:42.970 A:middle L:90%
to a lot of the older paradigms and be able

419
00:27:42.970 --> 00:27:48.039 A:middle L:90%
to really start getting into that very uncomfortable area of

420
00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:52.420 A:middle L:90%
talking to students and finding out where they're coming from

421
00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:56.200 A:middle L:90%
and not just saying to our students this is the

422
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.099 A:middle L:90%
way you gotta do it. Um And my last

423
00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:06.009 A:middle L:90%
example would be if you take a gamer they die

424
00:28:06.019 --> 00:28:11.190 A:middle L:90%
and they address failure 100 times during every single game

425
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.269 A:middle L:90%
session. But our paradigm of teaching has always been

426
00:28:15.269 --> 00:28:19.700 A:middle L:90%
flipped is to avoid failure at all costs in our

427
00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:22.230 A:middle L:90%
teaching. If your students are failing, you obviously

428
00:28:22.230 --> 00:28:26.009 A:middle L:90%
are not doing a good job teaching, which means

429
00:28:26.009 --> 00:28:27.609 A:middle L:90%
that the only alternative you have is to front load

430
00:28:27.609 --> 00:28:32.829 A:middle L:90%
instruction with all the stuff that is so boring to

431
00:28:32.829 --> 00:28:36.259 A:middle L:90%
these students and they they want to just get in

432
00:28:36.259 --> 00:28:38.410 A:middle L:90%
and manipulate the variables and they said but you can't

433
00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:41.029 A:middle L:90%
do that you're not, you're gonna fail, you

434
00:28:41.029 --> 00:28:42.009 A:middle L:90%
know, a couple of them and they say cool

435
00:28:42.019 --> 00:28:45.769 A:middle L:90%
I'll learn from that now. So if we say

436
00:28:45.769 --> 00:28:48.920 A:middle L:90%
we need to flip around our whole instructional process to

437
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.140 A:middle L:90%
where we give the manipulable and we do coaching along

438
00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:55.660 A:middle L:90%
the way and then we do reflection and we do

439
00:28:55.660 --> 00:28:59.150 A:middle L:90%
all kinds of things like that. We're also going

440
00:28:59.150 --> 00:29:03.509 A:middle L:90%
to have to change instructional design to be a lot

441
00:29:03.509 --> 00:29:07.799 A:middle L:90%
more adaptive and that whole process and to the extent

442
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.960 A:middle L:90%
that that's going to bounce off of A. C. T.

443
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:12.220 A:middle L:90%
And what we call as far as

444
00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:17.900 A:middle L:90%
divisions that are based on that sort of linear model.

445
00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:22.799 A:middle L:90%
Um We need to just challenge that and just

446
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.579 A:middle L:90%
let other things kind of starting to emerge and fall

447
00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:27.160 A:middle L:90%
away. So I certainly don't think A. C. T.

448
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:29.829 A:middle L:90%
Is going to be static for a

449
00:29:29.829 --> 00:29:32.710 A:middle L:90%
while. I think it's gonna be pretty dynamic in

450
00:29:32.710 --> 00:29:37.190 A:middle L:90%
terms of change both organization. But I really believe

451
00:29:37.190 --> 00:29:38.680 A:middle L:90%
that A. C. T. Is going to uh see

452
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.210 A:middle L:90%
the handwriting on the wall and start adapting.