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Okay obviously we have a different setup this 
evening and as advertised this is on the topic  

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:23.280
of open and I've noticed that many of you are 
still kind of in the location where you have been  

00:00:24.080 --> 00:00:29.920
but some of you have moved around so just you 
know I'm going to say something like that. Anyway  

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a couple of things. I'm going to dispense 
with the proclamations announcements all of  

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those so that we can get right onto the panel 
but I did want to remind you that next Monday  

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we're starting into global and international so 
those of you who are international you will have  

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the opportunity we'll figure out where we're going 
first which part of the world but no powerpoints  

00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:04.320
no slides just a conversation so I'm assuming 
those of you who are international are ready to  

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roll next week okay any questions on on that okay 
Peter it's all yours.  I have one more announcement  

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yes if you're sitting next to a mic can you just 
turn it on I think we're going to leave them on  

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the whole time and hopefully we won't have to 
pass them around for questions and everything.  

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Good evening everyone, my name is Anita Walz  

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and I'm the assistant director for open education 
at the university libraries. We are very honored  

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to be here my colleagues and I and various faculty 
from around the university who will be introduced  

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later. I wanted to give you a few words about how 
this session is going to work. There are three of  

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us that will give five-minute overviews of some 
of the opens. If you have questions during those  

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very short presentations regarding something 
that doesn't make sense if you can't hear us  

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please tell us otherwise we're asking you just to 
hold your questions until the panel starts so my  

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after that we will have the faculty panelists 
join us so Dr. DePauw, Dr. Mueller, Dr. Carey  

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will will join us and Peter will moderate 
the section from there so each person will  

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introduce themselves so you'll get a chance 
to meet each of us this is for you we hope  

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that you learn a lot we hope to have a really 
engaging discussion because if we don't it's  

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kind of boring for us so we think that 
you'll find this really interesting as  

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future professors so I'll keep it over to 
Peter and this class is usually not shy

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Good do you like that all right hello 
everybody my name is Peter Potter,  

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I am the director of publishing in the library 
here at Virginia Tech and is my mic going okay  

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great so tonight we're going to talk about 
the different kinds of open in research and  

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what I want to do to start is 
to give you some idea of the  

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the kind of the enormity of the issue 
of the problem that we're facing  

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just so you can get a sense of that. Philip 
will talk about open access in particular,  

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Anita will say a little bit about open ed,
and then we'll open it up for discussion.  

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So when we talk about the opens connecting the 
opens we think about open access open source  

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open data open research open science 
and you can go on and on it's  

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open is the word right now in 
terms of scientific research.

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And the way I want to frame this is to say to 
start with I don't know if many of you were or  

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any of you saw follow the news recently over this 
past year the University of California system  

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which is a 10 campus system huge they account 
for 10 percent of the research output in the  

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United States.  The University of California boycotted 
Elsevier journals and Elsevier's probably you  

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know one of the big big publishers of scholarly 
journals and other things so this happened  

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in February they were negotiating with 
Elsevier for months and months and finally  

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at the end of February they said you can't 
do it and they called off the negotiations  

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it took about five six months but over the summer

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Elsevier finally cut the University of 
California off so if you were a graduate  

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student at the University of California 
right now and you wanted to access  

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current Elsevier content it doesn't it 
doesn't count for the previous stuff before  

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the agreement but anything new coming out you 
have to give it to an alternative means and this  

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alternative access to Elsevier articles that's 
what the University of California is telling their  

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faculty and students this is how to find the 
research that you want so it's a big deal.

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And to give you a sense of how brutal 
it's becoming right now many of the UC,  

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of the University of California faculty may 
serve on on some of the Elsevier journals a lot  

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of the Elsevier journals and they got together 
as a group and threatened to resign from their  

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positions as editors of Elsevier journals 
and these are like all of the Cell journals  

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so again it's a big deal and that was in August 
and we're at a kind of a holding pattern right now  

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so why does this matter or why is this problem 
coming up I'd like to show this chart just to  

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give you a sense of how much journals are growing 
in terms of the how much they cost universities  

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like ours to subscribe to just in the last 20 
years they've gone up in 20 years they've gone  

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166 percent in the last 30 years they've gone 
500 percent to give you a sense of how much  

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and you can see these other charts the the top of 
the red one includes the serial expenditures  

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and you can see like books books is way 
down at the bottom so books have been a kind  

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of casualty of all of this happening so a lot of 
what we're going to focus on tonight is journals  

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but it affects books as well and 
we'll talk a little bit about that so  

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just to give you a sense of the size 
of this so the University of California  

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was paying 10 million a year so they had a 
contract for 50 million dollars to access  

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Elsevier journals that's just Elsevier that 
doesn't include any of the other publishers  

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we're in the same boat here in Virginia we 
have seven research universities in Virginia  

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that collectively negotiate an agreement 
with Elsevier ours is currently worth 

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46 million over five years so we're on a par as a 
state with the University of California system  

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and our deal is set to expire at the end of 2021 
so you're going to be hearing a lot about it  

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here at the university we have a website um 
through the library where we keep people updated  

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and we'll be talking to 
the community and trying to  

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educate folks on what's like what 
exactly is happening and what's at stake

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and it becomes in many ways an ethical question 
Elsevier the profits are completely out of control  

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and as John Adler has said 
publishing is so profitable  

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because the workers don't get paid and that's you.

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Just in terms of the bigger 
picture it's a 26 billion dollar  

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business scholarly publishing to give you a 
sense how that compares to other industries

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and it's controlled, scholarly publishing is 
truly controlled, by these five publishers  

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Elsevier Springer Wiley Blackwell Taylor and 
Francis and Sage those five form an oligopoly  

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and they control over 50% of the market so every 
time you're considering a publisher think about  

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this when you are choosing who you want to publish 
with and give you a sense of the profit margin  

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so this was this was four years ago but it 
hasn't changed significantly it's one of the most  

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profitable businesses so to give you an example 
i would like to show this one as an example of  

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what we're dealing with in the library trying to 
purchase access to journals so this was in 2002  

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at the time it cost twelve thousand dollars 
if you wanted to subscribe to the journal  

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of polymer science applied polymer science 
you could buy a Toyota Corolla for that same  

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amount that was in 2002. So anybody have a 
guess on how much that has changed since then

00:10:02.400 --> 00:10:13.040
yeah all right Toyota Corolla is now up to 
19,000 journal of applied polymer science 35  

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so just multiply that by how many journals are 
out there now it's a little bit misleading in the  

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sense that some journals they publish more content 
so it's not a apples to oranges apples to apples  

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but the principle is still true because 
we have to pay those subscriptions  

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so um the question now is is the tide turning 
so some of you have has anybody heard of Plan S?

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Plan S is an initiative that came out of Europe  

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and it was from the leading funding agencies 
in Europe and they initially started in 2018  

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and they called for publicly funded research to 
be published in compliant open access journals  

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compliant meaning they had to follow certain 
rules originally it was to take effect into 2020

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it's now been delayed until 2021 but it's been 
signed on to by many of the different funding  

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agencies including some American ones but here in 
the U.S. it's had less of a I'd say less of a  

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take-up than it has in in Europe and the UK but 
it's still people we're all following what's  

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happening with it and in the meantime while while 
California is not signing a deal with Elsevier  

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they've signed the kind of deal that they 
wanted to with Cambridge University Press  

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Springer has Springer and Wiley have both 
signed the kinds of deals that the University  

00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:57.840
of California is looking for with the with the 
um with Germany because that's all centrally uh  

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negotiated those um big agreements so  

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things are changing meanwhile something like 
PubMed Central 5.7 million open access articles

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but there's still a long way to go this this 
little graphic tells you sort of how much  

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of in these disciplines the how much open access 
accounts for so it's saying biomedical research is  

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around 50 but you can see in many of the other 
disciplines is much less all the gray is closed  

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access so Philip will now talk a little bit 
about open access and what exactly that means.

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Thank you, so I'm Philip Young, I'm the manager of 
VTechWorks which is Virginia Tech's institutional  

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repository. So we provide global access to 
Virginia Tech scholarship. It's where our ETDs end up,  

00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:10.240
many research papers, 
presentations, posters and so on  

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and I'll be talking a little bit 
more about VTechWorks in a moment.

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So what is open access? This is the canonical 
definition from Peter Suber. It's digital,  

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online, free of charge, and free of most copyright 
and licensing restrictions. So there's two parts:  

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one, you can get to it, you have internet 
access. The other part is often ignored:  

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free of most copyright and licensing restrictions. 
So if you see most an article from an open access  

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journal you'll notice that it has a Creative 
Commons license on it like the one in the bottom  

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left and so what this does is it gives permissions 
in advance for people to use that article and not  

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have to write the journal and get permissions 
to reuse a figure or something like that make  

00:14:02.160 --> 00:14:08.000
copies of the article and so on and so forth 
so it really is a two-part definition however  

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the first part has kind of become a de facto 
definition - if you can get to it freely online  

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then it's open access but technically it also 
has a Creative Commons and open license on it.

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So why is open access important?  

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So the primary thing is is just giving 
access to all those who don't have it  

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so our colleagues at other universities -- there's 
no way for me to know when I publish an article  

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in a subscription journal who has access 
to it. I can assume that some universities  

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have subscriptions to that, but many universities 
don't. This is especially an issue internationally  

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because many universities in India, South Africa, 
Brazil, you name it, may not have the money  

00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:00.080
to subscribe to these journals. So it's a big 
problem for researchers in the developing world.  

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Also taxpayers often fund the research 
so if you have a grant from NSF, NIH,  

00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.680
or any of the federal agencies, they're funding 
that research and then the results of that  

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research behind the paywall where they can't 
access it so that's an important issue. If you're  

00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:23.040
doing research in any kind of policy area, 
many government policy makers don't have access  

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to the evidence base so these are folks who 
would really benefit from access to the peer  

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reviewed literature that they don't have, 
the same with non-governmental organizations.

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It's also a basic scholarly value, right, so 
if we're all researchers in the same field we  

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want to be exchanging what we're doing 
freely and as efficiently as possible.  

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That knowledge must be available for us to 
build upon. So the most efficient way to do that  

00:15:55.520 --> 00:16:00.480
is to immediately have access. It's a waste 
of all of our times to be hitting paywalls  

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that are asking for thirty dollars, forty 
dollars whatever we have to find workarounds,  

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when we could be doing research. It also 
benefits the authors of open access papers.  

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There's considerable research showing a 
citation advantage for open access works not  

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every study about disadvantages about the citation 
advantage has shown an advantage for open access  

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but most of them have shown an advantage 
because it's openly available for everyone  

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around the world to access and then if it's 
relevant to them decide it in their own papers  

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there's also an altmetrics advantage. Altmetrics  

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as opposed to the citation advantage which is 
sort of a within academia advantage altmetrics  

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are links coming from anywhere towards the 
research object so for example it might be  

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the New York Times or CNN or somebody writing 
an article and linking back to your research.  

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It could come from social media, it could come 
from policy documents. If you're an environmental  

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researcher and your work gets cited in the policy 
document from EPA, that's pretty important.  

00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:15.200
These are collecting links from anywhere 
on the web towards your research article  

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and there's evidence that there's an 
advantage there because it's openly available.  

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Open access also facilitates other uses 
like text and data mining so this is a  

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big thing right now if you're interested 
in text and data mining most disciplines  

00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:34.560
are split among all the different publishers so 
you would have to go to Elsevier and work out do  

00:17:34.560 --> 00:17:39.680
we have a little widely worked out you have to 
go to Taylor and Francis to work on a deal this  

00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:45.360
is why there's not much text and data mining in a 
lot of fields is because of these barriers so when  

00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:51.760
things are open access you can collect them bring 
them together and do sort of meta research on it.

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So as authors how do we make our work open access? 
There's two ways to do it. The first is publishing  

00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:07.600
an open access journal and the second is 
archiving work, a version of our article  

00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:14.880
in a repository. So first if you want to 
publish in an open access journal one of the  

00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:21.840
keys is finding a legitimate one because i've 
been moved to open access journals online  

00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:29.360
in the advent of publishing fees for some of 
those journals this has allowed basically anyone  

00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:35.040
to put up the journal website and submit your 
work so it's important to check the journals  

00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:39.440
if you've never heard of the journal if people 
you work with have never heard of the journal  

00:18:40.080 --> 00:18:43.360
to do a little due diligence and make 
sure that that journal is legitimate.  

00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:50.240
One of the directories that we use a lot is the 
Directory of Open Access Journals, doaj.org.

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It has a pretty significant, demanding process to 
be listed in that index. They do a lot of checking  

00:19:00.560 --> 00:19:05.120
of the journals they're in that so you can feel 
fairly confident that if the journal is listed  

00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:12.480
there then it is legitimate. Also the library has 
access to the Ulrich's periodical directory and so  

00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:18.480
if you go into Ulrich's through library access you 
can limit to peer-reviewed journals and then again  

00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:24.160
to open access journals and see what open access 
journals are in your field. There's also a site  

00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:30.720
called think check submit which has a number of 
criteria that you can use for evaluating internal  

00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:36.720
websites if you're not sure if it's legitimate 
or not. Also because we have the open access  

00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:44.320
fund we do a lot of evaluation of journals and so 
if you go to our open access fund website there's  

00:19:44.320 --> 00:19:49.440
contact information there and you can ask us a 
question, what do we think about this journal.  

00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:58.080
So not all open access journals charge and 
charge a fee but a significant number of them do.  

00:19:59.840 --> 00:20:05.280
When you have an open access fee typically that 
comes out of a grant. So if you have a federal  

00:20:05.280 --> 00:20:10.640
grant like an NIH or NSF grant typically you can 
use some of that funding for the open access fee.  

00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.680
If you do not have a grant we have a fund 
here at Virginia Tech out of the libraries  

00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.840
the subvention fund and graduate 
students are eligible to apply for that  

00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:29.040
and so I have that linked here on the slides which 
will share and so that's a valuable resource here  

00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:34.880
if there's a fee and you're publishing an open 
access term we also have a number of discounts  

00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:40.960
because of our relationships with publishers. 
For archiving, the most important thing to know  

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:47.280
is whether you have the right to post an article 
version. So when you're archiving your work it's  

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:53.600
important to note that you're archiving a version 
of it not the publisher's final PDF. This is how  

00:20:53.600 --> 00:20:59.200
some folks some publishers have sent take 
down notices to some sites because of this.  

00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:05.360
So you're posting your submitted version, 
you're submitting your accepted manuscript.  

00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.320
Your contract will typically tell 
you the what, when, and where,  

00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:14.080
the what version you can share whether it's 
the accepted manuscript or the submitted one,  

00:21:14.800 --> 00:21:20.560
it'll tell you when you can do it can you do it 
right away or do you need to wait 12 months or  

00:21:20.560 --> 00:21:26.160
sometimes even more than that that's called an 
embargo typically and then where you can do it  

00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:31.760
so sometimes they will say well you can share 
this in six months on your personal website  

00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:38.080
or 12 months in an institutional repository so 
it's important to know that "what, when, and where"  

00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:44.480
from your contract. There is a site that aggregates 
all these journal permissions called Sherpa Romeo  

00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:50.800
and that's a very useful site based in the UK 
where you can just enter a journal name or an ISSN  

00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:55.760
and it will bring up a page that will 
tell you what version you can share,  

00:21:55.760 --> 00:22:02.400
the what when where, so that's a very valuable 
source. You can also negotiate your contract  

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:06.560
in some cases when they happen and they say 
congratulations your article is accepted  

00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:12.880
now just please sign this copyright transfer 
agreement often you can negotiate with an editor  

00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:20.160
or add or add an addendum to the contract to get 
the rights that you want. Also here at Virginia  

00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:26.240
Tech we are proposing a faculty open access policy 
which expands and simplifies rights for faculty  

00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:35.120
essentially we have the right to post our accepted 
manuscripts immediately as soon as it's accepted  

00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:41.920
so that would be a vast expansion of our rights 
particularly since some journals have no sharing  

00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.800
whatsoever. I've talked to some faculty in 
mechanical engineering, they say, I publish in  

00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:52.960
this journal but you tell me about sharing 
in that and there's no sharing so this would  

00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.760
actually give us the right to share articles 
where we previously were not able to.

00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:09.920
So where can you post articles? I'm the manager 
of VTechWorks, so it has about 75,000 items, it's  

00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:15.840
indexed in Google Scholar, Google, all the major 
search engines. We get more than 3,000 downloads  

00:23:16.560 --> 00:23:24.000
a day so this is indexed around the world 
it's in Google Scholar, so it is a  

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:29.600
very effective dissemination platform. You 
would have to register and then email us about  

00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:34.800
which collection you want to submit to work 
to but all students here graduate students and  

00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:41.120
faculty have access to this there are also many 
disciplinary repositories and pre-print servers,  

00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:48.400
arXiv is probably the most famous it came about 
in the mid-90s early to mid 90s i think in physics  

00:23:49.120 --> 00:23:54.320
and astronomy, bioRxiv is one of the life 
sciences that has really taken off in the  

00:23:54.320 --> 00:23:59.840
last two or three years and I know a lot of folks 
in the life sciences who are posting preprints  

00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:05.040
there now and so you can find a 
repository for most disciplines now  

00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.160
there are also some broadly based ones 
such as OSF preprints and preprints.org  

00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:18.400
where you can't find a good disciplinary one 
you can post preprints there many of these  

00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:25.920
journals will allow you to post on your website 
so there are some disadvantages to that.  

00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:32.960
It will get picked up by Google Scholar and search 
engines but for example if it's on the VT domain  

00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:38.080
your website is going to go away your website 
could also go away in the future so if you're  

00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:43.280
going to use your website I would highly recommend 
putting in a repository somewhere because every  

00:24:43.280 --> 00:24:49.200
repository has staff like we do here to look after 
that make sure the metadata is updated make sure  

00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.840
it's indexed we'll make sure it's preserved 
so it's going to be around for a long time  

00:24:55.120 --> 00:24:58.160
many of the journals are putting 
language in their contracts now about  

00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:03.840
not posting on or you can 
post on non-commercial sites  

00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:09.520
so what does this mean non-commercial? Well 
it turns out that a couple of the biggest  

00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:17.600
repositories are commercial, ResearchGate 
and Academia.edu. They are for-profit entities  

00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:22.800
and it's unclear exactly how they're 
making money they're using people's data  

00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:28.160
or serving up advertising and that sort of thing a 
lot of the publishers particularly in STEM fields  

00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:32.480
don't like the fact that they're aggregating 
all these articles from all the publishers in  

00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.560
one place so if you see that non-commercial 
language that's what they're talking about

00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:44.880
I want to briefly mention open data unfortunately 
we couldn't bring one of our data experts from  

00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:52.480
the libraries in but we have tremendous data 
services department in the libraries who can  

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:58.880
help you with your data needs more and more 
journals and funders are asking researchers to  

00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:02.960
post their data in addition to make their 
making their article openly available  

00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:11.280
so this is something that you need to be aware 
about aware of. So open the open availability  

00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:19.040
of data improves research integrity so people 
can check it. Often peer reviewers will ask for  

00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:25.280
access to it, can I check the data that sort of 
thing so a lot of it's about research integrity  

00:26:25.280 --> 00:26:32.400
and replicability, can this study be reproduced it 
also becomes a cyber object most data repositories  

00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:38.960
now assign a DOI, digital object identifier, 
to a data set and then it becomes something  

00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:43.520
else that can be cited, a work of yours that 
can be cited so if you have a particularly  

00:26:43.520 --> 00:26:48.720
valuable data set it's possible that the data set 
itself could get more citations than your article  

00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:54.880
and we also have lots of help for data 
management plans which are required  

00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:00.080
for many funding agencies when you're 
applying for a grant NIH, NSF and so on  

00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:05.040
we have lots of help for putting a data management 
plan together and that's really important  

00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:13.520
to think about how your data is going 
to be shared with others particularly  

00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:17.040
when you're dealing with human 
subjects and issues of an optimization  

00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:24.000
so i briefly just wanted to share a few of 
the library services for open access and data  

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:31.120
we have an open access guide so if you just go 
to the VT website you can find our open access  

00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:36.640
guide which talks about some of the issues 
we've already talked about both OA journals  

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:43.360
and archiving your version of your work there are 
links to our subvention fund again graduate school  

00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:48.080
students are eligible to apply for that if you 
want to publish in an OA journal that has a fee.  

00:27:49.120 --> 00:27:56.800
And our repository is VTechWorks so if you have a 
presentation a poster a report anything like that  

00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:01.120
that you want to share with the world you can 
register and put it in VTechWorks and it'll be  

00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:08.800
available to anyone in the world to find. For data 
we have a data management guide and we also have  

00:28:08.800 --> 00:28:16.640
separate guides for NIH and NSF if you're applying 
for grants to those agencies we also have a couple  

00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:22.960
of studios in the libraries that might be of 
assistance the first is a data transformation lab  

00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:30.240
and we also have a data visualization lab 
and we have a separate repository for data  

00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:37.600
so called VTechData and so you can link 
between VTechWorks and VTechData if you  

00:28:37.600 --> 00:28:43.440
have a large data set also there are 
a variety of private settings on this  

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.000
if you're not quite ready to 
share your data you can keep it

00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:55.760
behind the VTechData and not share it or 
put it up say let's share it in a year  

00:28:55.760 --> 00:28:59.440
you can do that as well and the same 
is true for VTechWorks, if you have  

00:29:00.800 --> 00:29:05.760
a 12-month or 24-month embargo from the 
publisher on it you can deposit it now  

00:29:06.320 --> 00:29:12.160
and just choose an embargo it'll automatically 
become available in 12 months for example.  

00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:18.240
so that is my part and I think I'm going 
to turn it over to Anita now to talk about  

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.786
open educational resources.

00:29:20.786 --> 00:29:28.780
[Anita Walz] I'm going to attempt to 
keep this microphone on and put it in my pocket at the same time.

00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:35.120
So please raise your hand 
if you have heard of open educational resources

00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:44.880
okay a few people um for those who have heard of 
this um do you think uh this is the same as open  

00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:55.680
access and i'm just curious okay not sure okay 
maybe maybe not so um this is a large part of  

00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:03.760
what i do and i'm going to tell you a bit about 
how this connects to open access open access as  

00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:10.560
Philip mentioned is historically thought of as 
a very open license things are freely available  

00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:17.840
they're free of copyright restrictions very 
this is a very very open way of talking about  

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:25.360
resources that definition aligns very closely 
with the creative commons attribution license  

00:30:25.360 --> 00:30:28.160
please raise your hand also if 
you've heard of creative commons  

00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:35.840
okay pretty well good um so are they the same 
is this a different name for the same thing  

00:30:37.600 --> 00:30:45.600
uh yes if open access only equals cc by uh no 
with open access means three online nothing more  

00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:53.440
so how do we talk about open access and open 
educational resources as you're leaving the  

00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:57.440
room there's a copy of this handout that 
i'm about to explain so if you want to  

00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:05.280
pick one up feel free we'll also make sure 
that it is available to you on your course site  

00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:14.160
so open access open educational resources 
tend to be two different types of materials  

00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:20.240
that are created for different purposes 
open access resources tend to be scholarly  

00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:26.000
they tend to document knowledge in a field 
they tend to further a scholarly conversation

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:35.360
open educational resources tend to be resources 
that are put together primarily for teaching and  

00:31:35.360 --> 00:31:43.280
learning for stimulating discourse in classes they 
can be a lot of different things video software  

00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:49.440
formats you wouldn't think of as being officially 
academic they also include things like textbooks  

00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:58.720
so while we talk about them as totally different 
realms there's some overlap so in analog  

00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:06.000
environments you can have printed open educational 
resources or OER you can have printed open access  

00:32:07.840 --> 00:32:15.600
journals that you would print from from maybe 
your computer or copier but in general all  

00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:22.560
open educational resources are by definition open 
access and are available in a digital environment

00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:33.920
what is the difference between um the 
types of licenses that are available  

00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.560
that are classified as open educational 
resources and those that are open access  

00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:47.040
as you can see there's a lot of overlap here the 
licenses on the top which include public domain  

00:32:47.040 --> 00:32:55.120
which is not a license are the most free the ones 
at the bottom are the least free so at the top  

00:32:55.120 --> 00:33:01.120
we have public domain resources things that have 
graduated from copyright or we're never eligible  

00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:10.320
for copyright we have a range of creative commons 
licenses that allow you to adapt so you can share  

00:33:10.320 --> 00:33:16.000
you can adapt you can customize and then there 
are a number of licenses that say you know  

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:23.520
you cannot make any changes but you can share 
um and then we have things that are just simply  

00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:29.680
free online that are in copyright but don't have 
an additional license at the very bottom things  

00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:35.040
that are in copyright where access is restricted 
you have to log in you have to be affiliated  

00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:42.960
with the university to have permission to see 
something so this diagram shows you some of the  

00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.720
reasons why talking about open access 
and oer can be really confusing  

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:56.960
i invite your comments on this this is new 
as of uh about two weeks a week or so ago  

00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:00.480
um i created this for faculty senate 
because they said what are the differences

00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:11.920
so all these types of licenses the 
creative commons licenses still allow  

00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:18.720
fair use and fair use is a really powerful 
tool for you as educators to use materials  

00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:26.880
for criticism for teaching in limited and 
reasonable portions many of these allow adaptation  

00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:32.000
not all all of them allow redistribution 
except for things that are in copyright and  

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:39.680
all of them according to scholarship you should 
always attribute but legally or contractually the  

00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:43.840
creative commons licenses always 
require a particular kind of attribution  

00:34:44.640 --> 00:34:52.160
so what are these things what can you 
do with them if you run across material  

00:34:52.160 --> 00:34:57.520
that has one of these cc license on it 
that allows you to adapt to the material  

00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:05.600
in general you can retain it you can reuse it 
you can revise it or makes it redistribute it  

00:35:05.600 --> 00:35:13.600
uh the five our permissions are pretty traditional 
um permissions that have been it's just a nice way  

00:35:13.600 --> 00:35:20.240
of explaining what these sorts of works can do 
or what what you can do with these kinds of works  

00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:30.080
so a few examples um a professor came to 
me in 2014 and said my textbook is $200  

00:35:30.080 --> 00:35:38.480
and i don't want to do that to my students what 
are my options and i showed him an existing openly  

00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:46.480
licensed text we worked together for 14 months 
and we created this book which is an adaptation of  

00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:54.560
that first book that this fits this course it's 
available free online it's available under an  

00:35:54.560 --> 00:36:00.800
open license and if you want to buy a print 
copy we sell them or the uni we don't sell them  

00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:07.840
but they're available at the cost of printing and 
shipping so this is one example of something that  

00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:15.280
um that professors are doing here at virginia 
tech and i should mention are there any canadians  

00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:23.680
here yeah okay so there's a canadian version 
because some really smart canadians decided  

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:29.680
that they wanted a version that fit 
for their country for their students  

00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:33.520
um because they have a different health 
care system they have different gdp  

00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:39.360
there are different laws uh leading us examples 
are not very good for canadian context so  

00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:44.480
they've canadianized um the book 
and offered much in the same way  

00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:49.280
as we do it's free online you can get a pretty 
common demand copy and a little cost yourself  

00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:56.400
so this is a really it was really exciting to find 
out that that was happening um some other examples  

00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:03.440
of the authors of this book took an 
existing book i used it in a course and said  

00:37:04.080 --> 00:37:09.520
show us what you know about instructional design 
by adapting this book about project management  

00:37:10.080 --> 00:37:17.600
so one of the capstone projects of the course was 
to improve an existing book this is done by grad  

00:37:17.600 --> 00:37:25.840
students so they they were published authors very 
early on of learning resources which is wonderful  

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.120
especially for instructional design 
folks to have that in your portfolio

00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:38.880
another example is an anthology of english 
literature and maybe derek can comment on this  

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:44.320
later i don't know if you know of this one but 
this is an anthology of public domain literature  

00:37:45.680 --> 00:37:50.800
how many of you have spent money on a morgan 
anthology or something likewise it's a  

00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:55.040
book about this thick it has all 
the readings for your english lit  

00:37:55.600 --> 00:38:05.520
i bought one when i was in college um this is a 
replacement for that um doesn't cost you 120 or 80  

00:38:05.520 --> 00:38:12.480
and you don't feel like you might want to 
download a label copy of it or go without it  

00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:19.360
um so this would allow you to access that those 
readings because they're in a public domain  

00:38:21.200 --> 00:38:28.080
so going beyond oer there are a number 
of practices that are related to  

00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:31.840
using open materials in your courses  

00:38:33.600 --> 00:38:39.040
as i mentioned earlier working with with students 
for those of you who will be teaching working with  

00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:46.080
students to create things that are meaningful 
beyond the classroom so the project management  

00:38:46.080 --> 00:38:51.920
book is a great example of something beneficial 
to the world but is also useful for demonstrating  

00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:58.880
knowledge as part of a course assignment 
so i will pass around one other book  

00:39:00.240 --> 00:39:05.840
and we do more than books but books are the 
most portable kinds of things uh is anyone here  

00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:13.280
in uh computer engineering electrical computer 
engineering okay so this is a book that is created  

00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:21.680
by Steve Ellingson who is a professor in that 
department and he said i have written books before  

00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:28.240
i would like to do this open textbook thing 
and we worked with him to design and develop  

00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:35.920
a resource that is very remixable it's written in 
latex people who know latex can move the chapters  

00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:43.840
around it's a really fun way of looking at 
learning resources because everybody teaches  

00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:50.400
a little bit differently so i look forward to your 
questions and um i think we'll turn it over to you  

00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:58.400
for introductions Anita before you leave that 
what about um uh syllabi okay open syllabi yes  

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:06.240
because one of the darren established something 
like that uh there is so i don't know the  

00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:11.680
the update on deron's project right now maybe 
you can fill this in there are some open syllabi  

00:40:11.680 --> 00:40:19.120
projects um they're not quite as advanced as 
i would hope they would be but um if you go to  

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:26.320
you know something like MIT open courseware that's 
a project that was established in 2001 or two  

00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:34.160
about 40 of MIT professors who actually don't just 
teach engineering they teach english literature  

00:40:34.160 --> 00:40:43.280
and history and a lot of core topics as well 
they have put their syllabus online they've put  

00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:50.720
any material that they have available that they 
own under their copyright under put it under an  

00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:58.880
open license and shared it openly so there are 
lectures there are um sample assignments it's  

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:06.240
a great place to get ideas of how would i teach a 
course on X topic how did this other person do it  

00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:13.600
um it's a great place to to also see what kinds 
of resources they might use in their courses so  

00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:27.200
yeah um all right um before we turn the panel any 
immediate questions anything that came up that um  

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:37.840
you want clarification on the definitions or um so 
in your slides you had mentioned three levels of  

00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:44.480
open access i think it was gold silver and 
bronze right that would have been in Philip's 

00:41:46.160 --> 00:41:50.240
yeah is there your last slide that had all 
those colors there right yeah that's right yeah  

00:41:50.240 --> 00:41:56.560
um yeah i don't really know how the um i 
want to make sure i'm on i don't really i'm  

00:41:56.560 --> 00:42:02.320
not sure how those colors got assigned to the 
different uh types of open access but somehow  

00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.000
published open access in an open 
access journal got the moniker gold  

00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:12.160
if you archive your work either as a preprint 
or accepted manuscript in a repository it's  

00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:18.160
called green so you might run into these colors 
more recently there's been one called bronze  

00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:22.160
which was things that are openly 
available and they can't figure out why

00:42:24.640 --> 00:42:31.200
and some of that is journals making their 
articles available after a certain time  

00:42:32.240 --> 00:42:38.480
there are several journals that will make articles 
more than a year old openly available so they'll  

00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:43.600
still be under copyright which means you have to 
ask permission if you want to reuse the photograph  

00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:51.360
or figure or something like that but they'll be 
you can get to them so i don't know how many of  

00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:58.320
those there are but there's a fairly significant 
terminology seems to evolve over time so  

00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:04.240
i look there's a new color so i'm not always 
aware of everything yeah and there's a tool called

00:43:04.240 --> 00:43:10.400
unpaywall, unpaywall.org it's a browser 
extension that you can add to your browser  

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:17.120
chrome and firefox i think and it will put a 
little tab on the right side of your browser  

00:43:17.120 --> 00:43:23.440
and it will color the tab whatever color it thinks 
so it'll be gold or green or bronze i'm finding a  

00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.720
lot of the bronze is hybrid open access so these 
are the journals that are subscription journals  

00:43:28.720 --> 00:43:35.200
but they offer you an option to make your paper 
open access for a fee and typically those fees are  

00:43:35.200 --> 00:43:41.280
a little bit higher they can be as high as three 
thousand dollars so when the journal comes out  

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:47.280
maybe most of the articles are behind a paywall 
it could be maybe two or three that are openly  

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:53.920
available open access and that's because those 
authors paid the open access fee and um i think  

00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:59.440
maybe they're just being incorrectly classified 
they should be gold but they're ending up their  

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:04.560
bronze tag yeah so yeah it gets complicated 
all the reasons why an article might be open

00:44:10.160 --> 00:44:17.200
anyways so um with the open access textbooks you 
said especially like this business one that it was  

00:44:17.200 --> 00:44:20.960
kind of based off when the professor 
wanted to use are there any  

00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:27.200
hurdles there by then the original publisher 
in that it's like i don't know how active they  

00:44:27.200 --> 00:44:30.640
are with looking at these things but like 
oh this textbook's very similar to ours and  

00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:35.840
they're not buying ours anymore or is there 
ever any kind of comment of interest there  

00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:41.120
tourism and then open access and things like 
that i think there's definitely competition

00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:49.520
but you can't you can't use one unless it's openly 
licensed itself so the publisher shouldn't have  

00:44:49.520 --> 00:44:56.080
any objection to you doing because you have to use 
one that is already openly licensed or you have to  

00:44:56.080 --> 00:45:02.400
get rights forever right yes so you can't just 
do this with any book okay so the book had the  

00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:09.600
original book had an open license on it and that's 
why we were allowed to adapt it to be something  

00:45:09.600 --> 00:45:16.240
a little bit different from for the purposes 
here yeah good question sorry that wasn't clear

00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:25.840
um as you know there's criticism 
and concern uh that are expressed  

00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:34.400
by some faculty and grad students about uh not 
wanting to do open access to protect their um  

00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:41.840
intellectual uh you know enter their intel 
their intellectual interest and all of that  

00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:48.720
how would you address that why should we be 
going to open access when my faculty member says  

00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:54.800
uh-uh i don't want that to be out in the 
public we need to publish it in elsevier yeah  

00:45:54.800 --> 00:46:00.160
it's a very good maybe the faculty members can 
answer that too yeah i want there actually let  

00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:07.840
me introduce just again so that Cayelan Carey is 
associate professor of Biology correct and Derek  

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:15.440
Mueller is associate professor of of English 
but you you direct the a direct composition  

00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:21.440
program composition program okay and so we wanted 
Derek on here as a our token humanities person

00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:31.120
i do more than that i'm from the humanities 
background too so i can say that um  

00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:37.760
so i i find this some of these issues become 
much more complicated in the humanities and  

00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:43.200
Derek you might want to say something about 
that about why you might not want a fully  

00:46:43.200 --> 00:46:50.240
open license on something that you've written did 
you so you've written a book you might mention  

00:46:50.240 --> 00:46:54.400
the book yeah there's a lot of background 
context to put to that i guess um i mean  

00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:01.200
i i walked along a project for several years that 
um uh culminated as a book manuscript and i chose  

00:47:01.200 --> 00:47:05.840
to publish that open access and uh and that 
was for reasons of believing that publishing  

00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:12.480
means circulation i mean to publish actually the 
the root of publish is the same root as public so  

00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:18.000
so to choose not to have your work go 
public and to circulate if you if you  

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.560
really want your data kept secure and private 
and you want your writing not to be read red

00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:29.120
put it in a buried in a lead box you know put 
it under the ground and then no one will see it  

00:47:29.120 --> 00:47:34.240
ever no one will ever interact with it i don't 
think those are the goals of intellectual life  

00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:39.920
in a public academy certainly i don't i don't see 
that as really the purpose of the work it's for  

00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:46.800
uptake and circulation so um but to the point of 
uh caution that's felt where people feel a little  

00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:53.040
reserved maybe about you know i'm not sure i want 
my data just in anyone's hands there's a little  

00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:59.280
bit of a timing question that goes with that too 
um you know if you're a grad student and you have  

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:04.800
work in progress ideas they don't necessarily need 
to free circulate if you if by doing that you make  

00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:11.200
yourself vulnerable to sort of being scooped or 
or having idea having data or or your written  

00:48:11.200 --> 00:48:16.960
work circulate um in ways that might it might not 
be fully formed yet right so i think there is a  

00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:23.760
patience to be urged with the choice to move to 
uh open access publishing so that's enough to know  

00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.076
Cayelan, did you have uh you want to weigh in on 
that too?

00:48:29.076 --> 00:48:31.859
[Cayelan Carey] sure so um i'm a freshwater ecologist and so i do a lot of work

00:48:31.859 --> 00:48:36.410
on studying how climate 
change is affecting drinking water in lakes and reservoirs

00:48:36.410 --> 00:48:41.923
around the globe and so for me open 
access of both our the papers that i write and my lab writes

00:48:41.923 --> 00:48:48.840
as well as the data we collect is 
an ethical issue and that i really feel like the earth is kind of very kind of

00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:52.417
all hands on deck 
mode and so for me i see open access of sharing my data

00:48:52.417 --> 00:48:58.638
sharing my papers as a way of trying to 
promote collaboration and getting people working together

00:48:58.638 --> 00:49:04.941
in regards to karen's question about 
putting data out there um so in my lab we publish every

00:49:04.941 --> 00:49:10.835
single data set that we collect within a 
few months of after it's gone um qaqc so quality assurance

00:49:10.835 --> 00:49:16.738
quality control procedures which is a 
big deal because that means that i'm publishing um literally

00:49:16.738 --> 00:49:22.311
tens of millions of data points every 
few months because we are collecting uh sensor data

00:49:22.311 --> 00:49:26.182
that are out in lakes that are collecting 
measurements on the minute scale. 

00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:33.055
This past year we were scooped in the sense of there was a paper that got published using data that my lab had collected.

00:49:34.056 --> 00:49:38.080
 
 It was not from a collaborator it's 
not by anybody that i knew um and the first step i  

00:49:38.080 --> 00:49:43.200
had was i was horrified i was like oh my gosh this 
is totally undermining my intellectual and kind of  

00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:49.680
my mission of my lab but then from realizing this 
there's two things that emerged one is that they  

00:49:49.680 --> 00:49:54.000
were able to do an analysis that my lab can't 
do so therefore that's advancing the science  

00:49:55.120 --> 00:49:59.760
two i think there's something also about the idea 
of having the confidence that i will have other  

00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.000
ideas and i will have other opportunities 
and that this is how science works we're  

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.000
building on each other and if we can't promote 
that as academics then why are we doing this  

00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:16.560
Did they attribute? They attributed the 
data so did you have second thoughts  

00:50:17.520 --> 00:50:26.960
after that no i mean i was upset for an afternoon 
but i think that this is a really good lesson for  

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:32.560
me and this is only going to happen more and 
more and i was really excited so this past week  

00:50:32.560 --> 00:50:36.720
the funding program that i work apparently gets 
supported from the national science foundation  

00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:42.960
just released their new request for proposals and 
they're now requiring that all the data that are  

00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:48.160
collected from your previous proposal has to 
be published in a public repository with dois  

00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:54.000
before you can get next round of funding 
so this is massively going to change how  

00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:57.440
my colleagues do science and i also 
think that i feel i felt just so  

00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.520
fortunate and that our lab already has those 
kind of workflows set up that we're already  

00:51:01.520 --> 00:51:07.840
doing that so i don't have to have any change 
in procedures but 95 of my colleagues will so  

00:51:09.680 --> 00:51:14.960
do you talk to the people that published 
with your channel at all like about it  

00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.240
like for a possible future 
collaboration or i don't know  

00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:25.840
i don't know a lot about how that works but yeah 
so this was really recent so i'm still concerned

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:28.800
this is just last week

00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:36.400
but i am i know this research group i've 
known them for a while so i just haven't  

00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:40.560
met them personally and i'm hoping to kind of 
meet with them at a conference maybe kind of  

00:51:40.560 --> 00:51:45.040
sit down have a coffee and talk this through and 
also one of the things that's really important to  

00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:48.320
me is just making sure that my students see 
this as a process because i think they have  

00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:52.640
concerns as well and so i think derek's talking 
about the timing is a really important one of  

00:51:53.200 --> 00:51:57.440
most of the journals that my lab publishes 
in require the data to be published  

00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:01.280
um but they um if you look really 
carefully that says something about  

00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:05.600
it has to be this is not just like published 
at the time of submission but at the time  

00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:11.680
of the revision and so i think that that timing 
kind of gives some protection for students when  

00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:18.640
you're kind of on time-sensitive deadlines 
is anybody dealing with uh data right now  

00:52:18.640 --> 00:52:23.760
or you're here kind of that that's going to 
be an issue for you um publishing your data

00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:33.600
there's a question how many of you 
have published in open access journals

00:52:37.040 --> 00:52:45.680
one of you not one of you do you even know if 
it's published in open access no and i'm serious  

00:52:45.680 --> 00:52:54.000
because there are some times when you may not 
know if it's just a natural you know process so

00:52:56.240 --> 00:53:06.880
yes so i have a few questions about open 
access um and i know you uh phyllis you  

00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:11.840
talked you spoke about um the fact that you guys 
have funding to pay for open access journals  

00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:19.360
um so my advisor wants to you know embrace the 
open access um but you guys do not accept hybrid  

00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:26.480
journals that publish um like that you can pay for 
that uh open access um and that actually deters us  

00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:31.440
from wanting to go open access so we're kind of 
wondering like is there any way the library could  

00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:36.640
potentially like pay for those hybrids to kind 
of step us because a lot of the journals that  

00:53:36.640 --> 00:53:45.440
are open access in my field are either not so 
reputable or they aren't going to be read and  

00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:52.000
so the point of our work is to be read and people 
in my field i'm a computational biochemist so i'm  

00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:56.880
in a really weird spot like we don't know where 
to publish to begin with so we find one place  

00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:03.600
and all published there and so we publish 
in biothis and we publish in the acs phys b  

00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:09.520
um so like those aren't necessarily open access 
journals but nobody's going to read them otherwise  

00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:15.520
so kind of asking like would you be consider 
opening that up to hybrid journals like acs  

00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:19.600
um the fund actually happened

00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:29.520
the fund actually changed its policy it 
originally did fund hybrid when we started we  

00:54:29.520 --> 00:54:38.320
started the fund in 2012 and it accepted hybrid 
applications through 2018 and we had very few  

00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:45.840
but also there were many objections from the open 
access community in general against hybrid because  

00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:52.160
the fees in general tended to be much higher 
in the open access journals that was one issue  

00:54:53.040 --> 00:54:58.160
also one of the um thoughts behind hybrid 
was that eventually these journals would  

00:54:58.160 --> 00:55:02.240
flip to open access journals enough if 
enough people went hybrid and they'd say  

00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:07.520
okay we just need to be an open access 
journal and hardly any of that happen  

00:55:09.120 --> 00:55:17.280
also many of the publishers who are benefiting 
from the high hybrid apc fees are the oligarchs  

00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.120
that peter talked about so they're the 
elseviers and taylor taylor and francis and  

00:55:21.120 --> 00:55:28.160
wiley's of the world so that are profiting 
greatly from our scholarship so those are  

00:55:28.160 --> 00:55:34.960
the are few of the reasons um but i don't 
know gail our director of the fund is here  

00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:42.320
and maybe can answer even some things that i 
didn't touch on i think i'll just say it another  

00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:49.200
thing i'll just say it another way the reason 
that we funded so few hybrid journals is because  

00:55:49.200 --> 00:55:54.240
the condition under which we would um fund 
those articles was if the journal was not  

00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:59.440
what we call double dipping so the library 
is already paying the full subscription price  

00:56:00.160 --> 00:56:05.520
then you're asking us to pay them again to 
have your article published and we would pick  

00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:12.320
we would pay the article processing charge in 
hybrid journals if the publishers reduced their  

00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:18.560
subscriptions based on the number of open access 
articles that they published very very few do  

00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:25.600
that so we would have ended up paying them 
twice so that was the reason funded so few  

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:33.200
if you can see another way around that 
you know we'd be something to consider

00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:44.480
yes um so i'm a geologist and pre-print servers 
are still a really new thing in our field where  

00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:48.800
they're going to be really embraced by sort 
of certain sub-disciplines um i think myself  

00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:52.160
they're just kind of starting to get there 
um i don't really have any experience with  

00:56:52.160 --> 00:56:57.840
it so if you speak on some of the like pros and 
cons i guess of putting a free print up online  

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:04.320
um anybody who's had experience with that 
i can i can but if you want to thank it  

00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:12.640
you guys posting pre-press yes we are i 
just started um and the bio archives um  

00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:17.280
my colleagues in other disciplines specifically 
computer science have been doing this  

00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:21.360
in the archive for much much longer um so i 
think it's a discipline by discipline it's  

00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:25.840
really interesting to see who's coming 
on board with that um in my case um  

00:57:27.040 --> 00:57:32.160
so i've had two kind of situations in which 
this happened one is that we are submitting to a  

00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:36.400
journal which we know has a really long turnaround 
time but we want to cite it for example in a grant  

00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:41.520
proposal or we want to get it out there and be 
attributable um for example at a conference or  

00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:46.240
whatnot and so that's kind of the one approach but 
it's ultimately going to go into you know it's in  

00:57:46.240 --> 00:57:53.520
a peer review outlet as well it just takes a 
lot longer the immediacy of getting that doi  

00:57:53.520 --> 00:57:59.920
when you upload is pretty awesome on the other 
kind of situation that i'm in right now i am  

00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:05.760
a mentor many students do undergraduate theses 
and not all those kind of products are necessarily  

00:58:07.120 --> 00:58:11.200
at the point where they're ready to go through 
peer review and so we're using the bioarchive  

00:58:11.200 --> 00:58:16.240
to solicit feedback from colleagues that can see 
it out there it's open reputable and searchable  

00:58:16.240 --> 00:58:20.960
i can refer back to it and they can cite it you 
know for them moving through their undergraduate  

00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:26.880
careers and whatnot and so i see that as another 
pathway to use that as a way of sharing data and  

00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:33.760
sharing ideas can i ask if would any are there 
any publishers that would say okay well you have  

00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:38.000
this in a pre-print service or i'm not going to [ 
__ ] we're not going to publish your article does  

00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:42.240
does that happen i haven't experienced 
that in my field and from my colleagues  

00:58:42.240 --> 00:58:46.560
in computer science um that have been doing this 
for much longer they've said that their journal's  

00:58:46.560 --> 00:58:50.960
over because it became such an important 
pathway for sharing their work that over  

00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:54.160
time the journals in those fields changed 
so that that's no longer an issue for them  

00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:58.960
so i think that that would catch up as 
more people in that discipline do as well  

00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:05.840
that is something to be aware of though if you're 
in a discipline that's not pre-print heavy if your  

00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:12.640
you and your research group has a target journal 
you should look at their policies first because  

00:59:12.640 --> 00:59:16.080
when you post a pre-print you just rule 
yourself out of publishing in that journal  

00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:22.720
if they have a no preprints policy so 
but um like kalin said um it does tend to  

00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:27.760
flip the discipline so journals see all 
these great preprints out there and they  

00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:33.280
realize they have no pre-print policy they're 
going to change their policy because they see  

00:59:34.080 --> 00:59:39.520
how much great work is out there and they say it's 
okay to pre to post a pre-print and then you can  

00:59:39.520 --> 00:59:44.800
submit to us and uh seems like researchers 
are doing um sometimes they're just putting  

00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:49.440
a preprint out there and at other times they're 
submitting a pre-print at the same time they  

00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:54.640
submit to a journal so um i don't know if you 
have any thoughts on that you put pre-prints  

00:59:54.640 --> 01:00:00.240
out well before you submit to a journal um so 
well the the situation with the undergrad thesis  

01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.960
we don't know where that's going to go but for 
the other ones there's no formatting requirements  

01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:08.400
and so you basically format your paper to whatever 
journal you're going to send it to and at the same  

01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:14.400
time you just upload it to bio archive and that's 
great so yeah i know there's earth archive now  

01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:20.400
in the geosciences that's really starting to take 
off um one other thing that i wanted to mention  

01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:26.320
is that i think there are some journals when 
bioarchive really took off started recruiting  

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:32.800
from pre-print servers so this really flips things 
so instead of researchers hunting for journals  

01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:37.280
that'll publish their work the journals are 
using preprint servers to find articles that are  

01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:43.600
appropriate for their journals and sending you an 
invitation to submit and that that did happen to  

01:00:43.600 --> 01:00:50.000
me for um a special issue and a computer science 
an article as a co-author on we got the editors  

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:55.840
contacted the corresponding author and then 
that went into a special issue of a journal so

01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:05.840
yes i don't know how to ask this question 
necessarily but um the free printing thing like  

01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:13.120
how does that work with plagiarism and not having 
her articles out there in multiple courts because  

01:01:13.120 --> 01:01:18.960
i thought you were not supposed to do that like 
ethically or been part of like the irv process  

01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:27.360
i thought my training said but it could be wrong 
so does that make sense yes yeah i mean it's it  

01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:36.800
there actually my my uh my daughter actually in 
college published something in a pre-print server  

01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:43.360
and then she submitted a paper later based upon it 
and they accused her of plagiarism but she had to  

01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:51.440
she had to go through this whole appeal process 
but it was wrong and she was clear but that that  

01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:59.680
there was there's something that could happen 
but preprint it's different than publication in a  

01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:08.240
term it's what you publish or when you post online 
to a pre-print that's why it's called pre-print  

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:14.720
server it is considered pre-publication 
right so it's a different different category  

01:02:16.240 --> 01:02:20.480
yeah i think this gets back to our previous 
question we were talking about journals that had a  

01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:26.080
no preprint policy basically that policy is saying 
your work should not have appeared anywhere else  

01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:36.240
yeah right so journals are gradually changing 
those policies you know in computer science  

01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:42.480
physics astronomy they all accept preprints now 
because everyone puts it on the archive and it's  

01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:50.560
in the process of flipping for life sciences and 
people who post on bio archive so i don't know  

01:02:50.560 --> 01:02:58.800
that it's quite so much a matter of plagiarism as 
it is journals wanting to kind of have a monopoly  

01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:02.720
on that on that work and make sure it wasn't 
published somewhere else in another journal

01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:05.460
yes

01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:15.920
this might be a naive question but if if i 
become a professor in 15 years and i decided  

01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:24.400
to write a book why would i not like what would 
hold me back to have it open to everyone like  

01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:29.200
if i'm publishing with a certain publishing 
house do they have right to tell me okay you  

01:03:29.200 --> 01:03:34.560
cannot share this book you have to make this book 
super expensive like why books are so expensive

01:03:38.080 --> 01:03:42.880
well yeah it's a very good question because i 
mean and i'll let derrick weigh in on this but  

01:03:43.600 --> 01:03:49.760
i'm from the book publishing world and um the 
whole book publishing industry is based upon  

01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:58.560
sales recouping the cost of publishing the book 
so a book costs typical book if you're going to  

01:03:58.560 --> 01:04:05.040
publish a book with a publisher or that's a an 
academic book it costs when you add in all of the  

01:04:05.040 --> 01:04:12.240
expenses of the editors and the production people 
and the paper and the printing and everything  

01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:21.120
it can cost as much as 25 30 000 for a single 
book so publishers have been reluctant many of  

01:04:21.120 --> 01:04:25.840
the book publishers are reluctant to go 
to open access because they lose their  

01:04:26.640 --> 01:04:33.200
their money source that's understandable 
because that's their business model but  

01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:41.440
derek actually has an interesting experience 
of how his book did sales wise as well as  

01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:49.120
uh open downloads yeah i mean this this book it's 
called network sense and it's and it's really um  

01:04:49.120 --> 01:04:54.160
it's a series of sort of uh attempts to kind 
of use data visualization to understand a vast  

01:04:55.200 --> 01:05:00.080
sort of disciplinary network all this kind of 
activity that constitutes an academic discipline  

01:05:00.080 --> 01:05:04.960
so there's topic modeling with um sort of 
some keyword analysis and 25 years worth of  

01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:09.760
publications there's some stuff that uh looks 
at bibliometrics like citation frequency and  

01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:17.120
and sort of a growing range of who's cited in five 
year increments um all along i was committed to  

01:05:17.120 --> 01:05:20.960
interactive data visualizations that 
would be published online and it would be  

01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:27.120
part of the book and so so the problem with the 
printed page was that it wouldn't do things that  

01:05:28.080 --> 01:05:31.200
that i wanted that i felt like 
were foundational to the project  

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:37.120
my commitment to that essentially is what led 
me to a series and an editor who i felt i could  

01:05:37.120 --> 01:05:41.200
sponsor that work and walk it along so that 
it would so that it would be published online  

01:05:43.040 --> 01:05:49.200
the full monograph with these interactive digital 
elements and that it would also then a year later  

01:05:49.200 --> 01:05:54.480
actually roll out as a as a um a physical book 
that you could hold in your hand and that would  

01:05:54.480 --> 01:06:00.880
have that would have essentially screenshots with 
captions for the the interactive elements um those  

01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:05.200
were all things that mattered to me and what i 
learned is that actually i just checked in on the  

01:06:05.200 --> 01:06:10.560
the sort of the sales of the paper copies and the 
number of downloads just a little over a week ago  

01:06:10.560 --> 01:06:16.640
after we had a session um on etheneum uh maybe 
two weeks ago with someone who's sort of an open  

01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:23.840
access advocate too and and what i what i learned 
from both the entity uh the the colorado state um  

01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:28.640
system that's sort of a consortium of people 
who are handling the print side of publishing  

01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:34.480
is that it's not quite up to 200 um print 
versions sold which in the humanities is  

01:06:35.120 --> 01:06:40.800
i mean it's you know if you sell 200 copies you're 
doing all right but the online version has been  

01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:49.360
downloaded 7 400 times in 130 countries so so i 
could be i could be the kind of you know i could  

01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:54.480
go to my you know go by myself to the garrett 
where i write and just sort of work in isolation  

01:06:55.040 --> 01:07:00.560
and not have anyone ever see or hear about this 
book or i could make the choice right to have  

01:07:00.560 --> 01:07:04.880
it drop online it's not making anybody 
it's not making me any money it's not  

01:07:05.680 --> 01:07:10.320
but i feel like i'm a public employee i worked for 
university of michigan for a long time i've been  

01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:16.560
here for not quite two years i consider myself 
as a as a as a university a public university  

01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:22.320
employee i consider myself as a public employee 
right i don't care if i make a dollar out of that  

01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:26.720
project and that's maybe that's a distinction i 
think in the humanities and some of the social  

01:07:26.720 --> 01:07:34.560
sciences as compared to certain other fields um 
it was all about circulation so so the choice to  

01:07:34.560 --> 01:07:39.600
not really i don't know to make sure it was just 
uh accessible was that was the priority all along  

01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:45.040
that quite answers your question um 
i'm sorry a follow-up question so  

01:07:45.680 --> 01:07:53.040
uh for our for a reader like for for someone like 
me who doesn't know a lot of about these things  

01:07:53.040 --> 01:07:57.600
if i see two books one of them is open 
access and the other is from a reputed  

01:07:57.600 --> 01:08:01.920
publisher is there a general trend 
to go for the recruited publisher one  

01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:09.280
like generally you mean to publish with no or 
not for leaders or for someone who's trying to  

01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:14.800
access those books or to phrase it otherwise does 
people usually think that open access books are  

01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:22.720
lesser of a quality than uh reputed publishers 
sometimes that's an issue but it's if it's a book  

01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:28.640
that you're you're using for a class or you're 
assigned to students or you're using for your  

01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:35.440
research it's really on the reader or on the 
reviewer to determine what kind of quality it is  

01:08:37.360 --> 01:08:42.640
we've had this question with regard to our 
textbooks and to our other open educational  

01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:48.720
resources what are you doing for peer review 
and we do peer review with external reviewers  

01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:56.480
from other research institutions we do in-class 
field studies to get student feedback and find  

01:08:56.480 --> 01:09:01.520
out what students think of the work so there's 
a there's a lot of work that goes into it but  

01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:06.560
it honestly depends on who's producing it and how

01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:14.560
yeah there's i mean there is i think there's a 
lot of attachment to um sort of inherited prestige  

01:09:15.120 --> 01:09:19.040
that's assigned to these presses and because 
they're long-standing there's a lot of legacy  

01:09:19.040 --> 01:09:24.640
weight to that um i think we're finally in the 
academy beginning to see maybe it's a generational  

01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:29.760
shift i mean folks who are who are receiving 
or earning tenure who have taken some of these  

01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:35.600
chances to publish where does the quality rating 
come from really like if you do good work and the  

01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:43.840
work stands let that show i mean i i've never 
really been so fond of deference to the press  

01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:49.360
as the press is where the quality comes from the 
quality the quality comes from the work right and  

01:09:49.360 --> 01:09:54.800
and i guess in my case at least i've been i've 
been very fortunate um because over the past year  

01:09:54.800 --> 01:10:00.480
my books won two awards that are bigger sort of 
disciplinary recognitions of the quality of the  

01:10:00.480 --> 01:10:06.800
work that that didn't precede the book that didn't 
come from the press it was very much more just  

01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:11.920
sort of like a jury appears kind of thing so do 
good work i think is always the first answer and  

01:10:11.920 --> 01:10:18.720
i think because open access is still new inside 
the book publishing world it's it's it's still  

01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:24.640
a lot of people just there's there's not as much 
open access literature in book form as there is  

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:32.080
printed the book industry is still very much print 
oriented so we're still sort of figuring it out  

01:10:32.080 --> 01:10:37.360
and there's a lot of misconceptions around what 
open access means and that will change over time  

01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:45.360
you had a question so i'm funded through extension 
which extension has part of its mission as  

01:10:45.360 --> 01:10:51.280
creating um programming educational programming 
that is all required to be open access educational  

01:10:51.280 --> 01:10:57.040
programming are there any like i've never heard 
that anything we publish needs to be open access i  

01:10:57.040 --> 01:11:02.480
think it's a great idea um but are there certain 
fields that that are starting to go to like an  

01:11:02.480 --> 01:11:07.200
actual demand or a preference for open access 
because of the public implication not the academic  

01:11:07.200 --> 01:11:13.200
implication i think in some medical fields yes for 
sure and i think that's i mean that's a matter of  

01:11:13.200 --> 01:11:17.520
urgency for trials and whatnot and that's really 
been pushing the field at least in biology  

01:11:19.040 --> 01:11:26.320
yeah i think we saw the chart that biomedicine was 
by the highest to have open access certainly when  

01:11:26.320 --> 01:11:35.280
certain diseases like zika and ebola are coming 
out it's sort of verboten to put that oracle mind  

01:11:35.280 --> 01:11:40.800
at paywall because there's so many groups 
who want access to that almost right away  

01:11:41.360 --> 01:11:46.640
like i talked about non-governmental organizations 
needing assets so properties about borders and  

01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:51.520
lots of other groups you're going to want 
access to that research right away and so  

01:11:52.400 --> 01:11:57.920
people doing research in those areas 
just open access is something that you do

01:12:00.480 --> 01:12:03.040
so but it does vary tremendously by discipline

01:12:07.040 --> 01:12:16.480
you can just talk this time i think it will work 
yeah hi um so i am based in uh engineering um and  

01:12:16.480 --> 01:12:23.360
i do robotics work and so there's elements to 
publications where um a lot of the existing ways  

01:12:23.360 --> 01:12:28.560
we write our publications um like you can 
talk about the math involved in something  

01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:34.320
but not sure the code and call it open access 
but like nobody can actually do it unless they  

01:12:34.320 --> 01:12:43.040
do a full phd all over again um and so like is 
there sort of open access journals that require  

01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:50.240
open source in addition to that or open design in 
addition to that like genuinely whole open access  

01:12:50.240 --> 01:12:55.920
for the entirety of the project in an engineering 
kind of like engineering endeavor kind of sense  

01:12:57.360 --> 01:13:02.560
philippines might have the answer to that i think 
there are some a couple of years ago we had lorena  

01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:08.400
barba here from george washington university she's 
an engineer there and she's on the editorial board  

01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:15.360
of the journal of open source software i believe 
and so i believe all of their works and they  

01:13:15.360 --> 01:13:19.920
expect the software to be available to people 
but yeah that's a really great point and that's  

01:13:21.040 --> 01:13:25.360
there's a lot of people talking now about open 
science or open scholarship that it's not just  

01:13:25.360 --> 01:13:31.360
about open access which is the article for 
the open data it's about everything together  

01:13:31.360 --> 01:13:36.080
that you needed to put that research and then 
include software then that software should be  

01:13:36.080 --> 01:13:42.560
available to folks too um so that's one journal 
i can think of there are probably others that  

01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:50.480
do require the the code to go along with an 
article um would you talk about um open science  

01:13:50.480 --> 01:13:58.960
the uva center for open science at some 
point oh sure yeah i mean because caitlyn

01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:06.560
is that some of our journals require the code in 
regards and also in the data and so there's two  

01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:11.680
ways of handling that one is publishing your code 
with the data as metadata in the repository which  

01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:16.560
you're depositing whatever your data set is and 
the other is is that there's specific repositories  

01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:22.160
for code specifically um and then the second 
thing is as i've spent a lot of time recently  

01:14:22.160 --> 01:14:25.760
because i've been working on some software 
and we're trying to figure out the license  

01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:30.960
that should be attached to that and so um one 
of the great resources that i've found is github  

01:14:31.760 --> 01:14:38.080
you can set what type of license you want when you 
make that public and they have some really awesome  

01:14:38.080 --> 01:14:42.880
options you now have to specify that in your 
grant proposals for the science directorate um  

01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:50.160
and the mit license is the one that is generally 
the most used of my circle yeah i think it's going  

01:14:50.160 --> 01:14:54.960
to get this is going to become more and more of an 
issue because of the problems of reproducibility  

01:14:54.960 --> 01:15:00.800
that is that we're seeing more and more evidence 
that as more of this as more scientific research  

01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:07.280
becomes available and the code is available 
and the data that people can't reproduce those  

01:15:07.280 --> 01:15:10.640
experiments so that's going to become i 
think more and more of an issue in the future  

01:15:12.320 --> 01:15:17.840
yes um just kind of going off of that like 
reproducibility um one of the journals i've  

01:15:17.840 --> 01:15:23.520
like read and i actually wrote a post about 
open science or open access and i've talked  

01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:29.440
about plots the public library of science and 
i find that class has really um questionable  

01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:38.320
articles at least in my field um where the data is 
not reproducible um and it's like found on the doj  

01:15:38.320 --> 01:15:45.600
or whatever that was um as like a reputable site 
but i find the review process is not uh stringent  

01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:51.600
enough we need like it so like it's in the method 
it's like you read it and you're like i don't  

01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:57.360
even know what like salvage they use or like 
things like that where you could never go back  

01:15:57.360 --> 01:16:04.240
um so how do you trust an open access 
journal like that if that's the case for  

01:16:05.040 --> 01:16:11.200
not all but like some of the science papers that 
have been out there so is everybody familiar with  

01:16:11.200 --> 01:16:17.200
public library science applause um yeah it's 
a that's a really good question and i've been  

01:16:17.200 --> 01:16:22.160
following some of the reading some of the stories 
about claus and they're they're they're actually  

01:16:23.360 --> 01:16:28.240
um the number of articles they're publishing 
and decreasing significantly there seems to be  

01:16:28.240 --> 01:16:36.080
a concern about floss and what plos did was they 
developed this model this they're called mega  

01:16:36.080 --> 01:16:41.680
journal and there's there's real issues around if 
you're going to do a mega journal like that where  

01:16:43.600 --> 01:16:49.680
the quality control becomes an issue if you're 
publishing so much material that comes into you  

01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:56.000
so i i have concerns about that with plos and 
i that's why i've been sort of following when i  

01:16:56.000 --> 01:17:01.840
see a story about anybody else um have you seen 
anything about loss or do you have an opinion  

01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:11.120
of it i published several articles in the class 
one um and these are tend to be interdisciplinary  

01:17:11.120 --> 01:17:16.480
papers where there's not a good home in like a 
disciplinary journal and that i know that people  

01:17:16.480 --> 01:17:22.000
can access it a lot of people in my field are 
also you work a lot with community science data  

01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:26.160
for example we have you know 100 000 observations 
of someone on their app taking a picture of a lake  

01:17:26.160 --> 01:17:31.120
and it shows an algal bloom and so we want to 
make the data accessible and the those products  

01:17:31.120 --> 01:17:36.880
accessible so that journal seems to have been a 
home for these kind of studies in my field um and  

01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:41.280
i feel like those it's really important that you 
make sure that the people that you're suggesting  

01:17:41.280 --> 01:17:46.320
for peer review you give a long list because i 
think that's important in terms of the comment  

01:17:46.320 --> 01:17:50.480
you made about the data repositories though my 
experience has been is that there's very different  

01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:58.320
levels of stringency for metadata in different 
repositories and so um and something that  

01:17:58.320 --> 01:18:02.320
i've seen recently is that nsf is now making 
recommendations for which repositories they want  

01:18:02.320 --> 01:18:07.280
you to deposit your data in um and so at least in 
my field they specify which ones are accepted and  

01:18:07.280 --> 01:18:11.360
those tend to have much more stringent things 
like naming your solvents and how much was you  

01:18:11.360 --> 01:18:15.360
know pipetted in so that's something just to be 
mindful of what are some of the ones that they  

01:18:15.360 --> 01:18:21.280
recommend so knowledge base um the one that my the 
division environmental biology is recommended is  

01:18:21.280 --> 01:18:26.160
edi the environmental data initiative um who's 
partnered and actually brought sent people to  

01:18:26.160 --> 01:18:31.040
virginia tech to run workshops here um jonathan 
petters would be the person to ask about this  

01:18:31.040 --> 01:18:34.720
for which discipline would be the specified 
one but i've been really impressed with that

01:18:37.520 --> 01:18:39.840
yes

01:18:44.560 --> 01:18:51.760
hi um so i've heard i guess a bit of grant writing 
and how this relates to publications kind of  

01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:56.320
mentioned briefly but maybe our professors can 
kind of touch on that even if you need it to  

01:18:56.320 --> 01:19:03.680
include fees for publishing open access if that's 
a requirement so we'll make apps on that please

01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:09.520
do you mind repeating the question 
i'm sorry i didn't hear all of it

01:19:15.120 --> 01:19:22.000
i was asking about publications and 
grant writing including this funding  

01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:27.040
for publications and if you have to include 
some type of access you can just touch on that  

01:19:28.320 --> 01:19:36.960
yeah so i generally have to budget somewhere 
between 10 to 15 000 per nsf proposal for  

01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:44.560
open access fees that's really low that does not 
cover everything um that is needed um i've from  

01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:53.200
my experience serving on nsf panels um you will it 
comments will be made as to how large that budget  

01:19:53.200 --> 01:19:57.440
is um typically that's one of the things that gets 
trimmed when you're trying to get down behind you  

01:19:57.440 --> 01:20:05.200
know less than some thresholds but you can't get 
funded at least in my kind of division without  

01:20:05.200 --> 01:20:10.080
having that be at least 10k with the expectation 
that each journal will probably be around 2 000  

01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:17.840
to get one article published what does 
it cost to publish in print journals

01:20:20.400 --> 01:20:26.000
i mean i'm trying to i mean you're 
saying 10 to 15 000 for open access  

01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:31.840
what would you have had to budget 
if you were not doing open access

01:20:34.160 --> 01:20:40.400
nothing nothing no perfect no do 
they pay charges charges anymore  

01:20:41.120 --> 01:20:44.960
so some disciplines will have 
a trunk per page depending

01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:01.040
my colleagues that are more on 
the computational modeling side  

01:21:01.040 --> 01:21:07.040
their budgets are much more in the range of like 
30k per proposal for a million dollar grant sorry  

01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:16.400
yes uh so dr young talked a little bit earlier 
on about some of the good things about open  

01:21:16.400 --> 01:21:20.960
access and talk to some of the issues 
with it like like the taxpayer principle  

01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:26.640
and also the oligopoly issues 
i was wondering it seems to me  

01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:31.680
like there's a couple of disincentives 
for like we're just talking about one  

01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:35.920
uh public publishing open access i was wondering 
if you guys could expand on that a little bit  

01:21:35.920 --> 01:21:44.160
things like them not having as high impact factors 
things like the fees that you guys were just  

01:21:44.160 --> 01:21:50.080
talking about and then so what type of things 
would need to be changed like what mechanisms

01:21:52.160 --> 01:21:55.680
need to happen for those types of 
things incentives to be changed  

01:21:55.680 --> 01:22:01.120
and then also is there a conflict of in 
potential conflict of interest with open access  

01:22:01.120 --> 01:22:06.000
journals in the sense that um traditional 
journals are getting revenue based off of  

01:22:07.120 --> 01:22:11.520
subscriptions so if the journal's publishing 
really quality work they're going to get  

01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:16.640
really wide subscriptions uh whereas um 
if it's based off of the fee that people  

01:22:17.280 --> 01:22:23.040
are paying with each uh with each publication 
and it seems like they the journal will have an  

01:22:23.040 --> 01:22:27.760
incentive to publish as many papers as possible 
as opposed to the highest quality ones thanks

01:22:37.200 --> 01:22:41.520
model subscribe into being 
i think around 2000 or so

01:22:44.480 --> 01:22:49.040
but typically the peer review process 
and the payment process are independent  

01:22:49.760 --> 01:22:57.040
and so i've never seen any evidence 
that that there's a conflict in fact so  

01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:02.800
you're still sending it out for peer review and 
people are either accepting it or rejecting it  

01:23:04.160 --> 01:23:09.680
based on the merits of the article and then 
it goes to the editor and says this article is  

01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:16.160
accepted and then you go into the um but yes that 
was a concern that was raised early on with that  

01:23:16.160 --> 01:23:23.040
and it seems to have kind of died out um i don't 
know that that's talked about too much um anymore  

01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:28.960
um then response to the other issues you know 
one is perceived that we already heard earlier  

01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:32.720
um journal titles that you've 
heard of and know in your field  

01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:39.120
maybe all subscription journals and people have 
heard of the open access journal so that's a  

01:23:39.120 --> 01:23:44.960
really naughty issue the issue of prestige a 
lot of people are kind of pushing back on that  

01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:53.360
you might have seen that one of the recent 
nobilis posted or someone posted a rejection  

01:23:53.360 --> 01:24:00.480
letter from nature from one of the folks who 
won the nobel he published in another journal  

01:24:01.120 --> 01:24:04.080
there's actually quite a bit of 
research out there now showing that

01:24:06.480 --> 01:24:12.080
that you don't necessarily need to publish in a 
high prestige journal to get lots of citations  

01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:20.000
so that's becoming more and more spread out and 
actually the the fellow who runs google scholar  

01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:24.160
has actually published on this as well that 
they've found that citations are becoming more  

01:24:24.160 --> 01:24:30.080
and more distributed and i guess a little bit 
more democratic in the digital era and it's not  

01:24:30.080 --> 01:24:35.280
quite so much about the title of the journal 
that you published in and so there's publish  

01:24:35.280 --> 01:24:42.640
there's sort of pushback on is it all about the 
title of the journal that you published in and  

01:24:42.640 --> 01:24:47.120
the impact factor of that journal because there's 
lots of problems with the impact factor as well  

01:24:48.080 --> 01:24:56.000
it's not a very great metric because it's 
an average um it's very citations are very  

01:24:56.000 --> 01:25:01.600
skewed in journals you can have one or 
two articles that get 100 500 citations  

01:25:02.240 --> 01:25:08.080
and all the rest might have 10. well what's the 
average so you get a high if for that journal  

01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:12.720
so you should be taking the median not the mean 
of those journals so this is just a fundamental  

01:25:12.720 --> 01:25:17.440
problem with the iaf but everyone talks about 
the impact factor just because it's a phrase that  

01:25:17.440 --> 01:25:23.280
rolls off everyone's tongue what's the impact so 
um impact factor definitely has some big problems  

01:25:23.280 --> 01:25:28.640
when it's used in evaluation of researchers yep 
the other thing i the point i'd make is that  

01:25:30.080 --> 01:25:36.000
open access when you talk about open access 
versus subscription that is simply a delivery  

01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:41.520
method and it's a business model it has nothing 
inherently to do with quality and that's where  

01:25:42.400 --> 01:25:47.200
the sometimes these things get confused because 
when you publish in an open access journal  

01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:54.240
open access doesn't mean that that journal is 
any less rigorous than another journal and you  

01:25:54.240 --> 01:25:57.920
can also make the case like elsevier one of 
the things that the big publishers have done  

01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:03.520
why those costs are going up is because they 
keep starting new journals and new journals  

01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:09.440
and forcing the libraries to subscribe we 
pay that big bundled fee and so there's all  

01:26:09.440 --> 01:26:14.960
these journals that nobody wants they get 
or a lot of people don't want um thrown in  

01:26:14.960 --> 01:26:22.320
to the mix and they may or may not be high quality 
journals but elsevier will live off of the overall  

01:26:23.920 --> 01:26:31.360
prestige that they they carry so i think over time 
these kinds of issues will will play out and will  

01:26:31.360 --> 01:26:40.800
have a more i hope a more balanced view of what 
that means can i add something else um one of  

01:26:40.800 --> 01:26:46.000
the factors that you did not mention that i think 
is an important barrier to acknowledges inertia  

01:26:46.880 --> 01:26:53.200
the way that we have always done things 
and this is something i think that i see in  

01:26:53.200 --> 01:26:59.520
the open educational resources adoption 
or non-adoption that i think is probably  

01:26:59.520 --> 01:27:07.200
typical also with regard to journal publishing 
how have we done things our traditions so there  

01:27:07.200 --> 01:27:14.880
there's some cultural change that that needs to 
happen could happen is happening in some corners  

01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:22.400
of and and some mainstream areas as well but i 
think that's also a significant factor i just  

01:27:22.400 --> 01:27:28.080
feel like the current model is so unsustainable 
like that's going to force things to change and  

01:27:28.080 --> 01:27:34.880
i see it like just in my experience of you know 
from the past 15 years in which i've been doing  

01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:40.880
science of just how rapidly the past few years 
there is now this real emphasis on open access and  

01:27:40.880 --> 01:27:45.920
i predict that over the next five years it's going 
to change even more rapidly and for all of you  

01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:52.720
pursuing careers in academia and publishing that 
it's going to be very different than as it is now  

01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:59.840
and did you have one follow-up question um 
yeah i really agree with what you're saying i i  

01:28:00.640 --> 01:28:07.760
was wondering so maybe from a mechanistic 
standpoint should it come from the  

01:28:07.760 --> 01:28:15.040
university what from the professors and maybe 
in their evaluation of new hires or something  

01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:22.480
maybe they're not paying as much maybe they're 
not putting as much weight into the impact factors  

01:28:23.200 --> 01:28:26.880
that these these assistant professors 
are publishing it seems to me like  

01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:33.680
they're still evaluating based off of the impact 
factor and what you're publishing in but uh it's  

01:28:33.680 --> 01:28:39.360
a great question and um people have a lot of 
thoughts about that there's there's an article  

01:28:39.360 --> 01:28:45.360
that was just published on the bio archive within 
the past few weeks of a survey of all of the hires  

01:28:45.360 --> 01:28:52.560
and life sciences of 900 hires in the 2010-2019 
academic year who got faculty positions at any  

01:28:53.760 --> 01:28:58.320
kind of positions across the u.s uh the 
majority of them had preprints posted  

01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:05.360
and the majority of them did not have kind of 
a high prestige cell science nature article so  

01:29:05.360 --> 01:29:09.920
that might be a good place to look for data 
on that and their data are public yeah i  

01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:15.680
also wanted to point out the um that there's 
actually a research declaration now that  

01:29:16.240 --> 01:29:20.800
universities in europe are signing on to now it's 
called the san francisco declaration on research  

01:29:20.800 --> 01:29:28.560
assessment and it is highly critical of the impact 
factor and the use of metrics to to evaluate  

01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:34.240
researchers so um that's one thing that i think 
everyone should look at i think it's just that  

01:29:35.120 --> 01:29:38.560
sfdora.org that you can look 
up door admit that factor  

01:29:39.200 --> 01:29:44.640
and probably find it i don't know that many u.s 
universities have signed on yet but i know many  

01:29:44.640 --> 01:29:49.920
in the uk and throughout europe have signed 
on and said yes we're not going to evaluate  

01:29:51.120 --> 01:29:57.440
people based on this job applicants or people 
who are already on the tenure track based on the  

01:29:57.440 --> 01:30:03.920
iaf of the journals that they publish in because 
that's really just not a good way to to evaluate  

01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:10.400
folks i also wanted to follow up a little bit on 
your previous question about how things should be  

01:30:12.160 --> 01:30:21.200
and i think what everyone would like to see is no 
fees for readers and no fees for authors that's  

01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:26.560
the perfect world that we're trying to move 
towards and there's some examples out there  

01:30:27.120 --> 01:30:31.840
and hopefully this would be subsidized 
by finders to be subsidized by libraries  

01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:36.000
so that there's no charge for 
readers and no charge for authors  

01:30:36.000 --> 01:30:41.440
because you know these open access fees are now 
another thing that authors have to think about  

01:30:41.440 --> 01:30:47.040
if you want to publish in a journal without those 
fees so there's one initiative called scope 3 it's  

01:30:47.040 --> 01:30:53.280
in particle physics where a number of journals 
i'm not sure how many terms it is i think it's at  

01:30:53.280 --> 01:30:59.600
least a dozen maybe 20 journals where libraries 
have come together to fund these journals  

01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:04.320
behind the scenes there were existing journals 
subscription journals that flipped open access  

01:31:05.120 --> 01:31:10.080
and so they're free to read and authors don't have 
to pay anything to get those published open access  

01:31:10.960 --> 01:31:15.520
and so there are other initiatives like this 
in humanities called open library of humanities  

01:31:15.520 --> 01:31:21.040
based in the uk that hosts a number of journals 
and humanities no charge for readers no charge  

01:31:21.040 --> 01:31:27.280
for authors so that's what we're trying to work 
towards but it's a big collaboration problem  

01:31:27.280 --> 01:31:32.640
with funders and universities to fund these 
journals behind the scenes but i think that's  

01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:36.800
sort of the perfect world that we'd like to see 
where authors don't have to worry about this  

01:31:36.800 --> 01:31:40.560
i mean it's a lot of money but when you 
look at how much money is in the system  

01:31:41.520 --> 01:31:48.800
it there's enough to make this happen it's just a 
matter of flipping the system so that that money  

01:31:48.800 --> 01:31:54.240
that we're paying what is our scale our 
journal subscription the library budget  

01:31:54.240 --> 01:32:00.240
is about 10 million and we pay about eight 
million for journal subscriptions and vehicles

01:32:03.120 --> 01:32:05.360
eight tenths of that is going to just the euro  

01:32:06.320 --> 01:32:11.840
yes um i'm curious about the el 
severe negotiation that's covered

01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:22.800
are we prepared to i don't know we as a virginia 
tech prepared to go toe-to-toe like california did  

01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:28.240
um or like i guess the game plan 
when it comes around for negotiation

01:32:30.480 --> 01:32:36.720
so yes we so as i said the there are seven 
research universities in virginia that have  

01:32:36.720 --> 01:32:45.440
collectively negotiated the most recent deals um 
so we got together recently to talk about this  

01:32:45.440 --> 01:32:50.480
and what our strategy is going to be 
and what we what we want in an agreement  

01:32:51.280 --> 01:32:57.760
but there are it's still early so we have 
basically another two almost two years so we  

01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:02.560
want to see what happens with california because 
that we have the advantage of being able to  

01:33:03.120 --> 01:33:09.120
we hope see some progress there but then 
there's one of the challenges for us is  

01:33:10.160 --> 01:33:13.760
unlike the university of california 
where it's a 10 campus system that  

01:33:13.760 --> 01:33:18.560
they have to be together we're seven different 
universities and we all have different ideas  

01:33:19.280 --> 01:33:25.760
so we have to be careful about how we approach 
this because some universities may want to take  

01:33:25.760 --> 01:33:32.000
more of a hard line than others florida state 
university recently pulled out they were part of  

01:33:32.560 --> 01:33:40.160
the florida-wide system and they pulled out and 
what they did was they said okay well we're gonna  

01:33:40.160 --> 01:33:47.840
put x amount of dollars that maybe a half of 
what they were spending for for the elsevier deal  

01:33:48.640 --> 01:33:52.240
and they said we're just going to pick the 
top journals and we're going to get as many  

01:33:52.240 --> 01:33:59.600
of them as we can for the amount we want to pay 
that's one strategy that a university has taken  

01:34:00.560 --> 01:34:04.960
by going outside of the the consortium 
modeling so we're going to see a lot  

01:34:04.960 --> 01:34:11.120
of these experiments and it's it's unclear 
what's going to happen here but that's what  

01:34:11.120 --> 01:34:18.960
where we will be talking a lot about that the next 
two years and our head of our library dean walters  

01:34:18.960 --> 01:34:26.560
will be doing all meetings and getting community 
feedback about that because we were very concerned  

01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:34.080
about we don't want to just pull the rug out from 
under our faculty and students on the other hand  

01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:42.480
we can't accept a deal where it goes up another 
20 and then you just simply can't afford it so  

01:34:42.480 --> 01:34:47.280
how do we manage that so there are a lot 
of conversations that still have to happen

01:34:50.880 --> 01:34:57.440
yeah so i had going back to that open access going 
back to the open access general question a lot of  

01:34:57.440 --> 01:35:02.560
the open access journals that i was finding 
are subsidiaries of those big five and when  

01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:08.080
we talk about inertia it seems like you 
want to support the little guys and but  

01:35:08.080 --> 01:35:12.000
you know even though you had said that the 
quality of these journals the peer review process  

01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:17.760
separate from that i i think that's got to be true 
to some extent but some of these smaller journals  

01:35:17.760 --> 01:35:23.760
like you know is there some inferiority and in 
terms of like how is like what's the best way  

01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:29.280
to pick an open access journal i'm just curious 
how you all feel about that if you should avoid  

01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:33.280
going to one journal that's you know 
within those big five because those profits  

01:35:34.080 --> 01:35:40.400
you know yeah that's part of the reason why the 
hyper journals i mean elsevier is now one of the  

01:35:40.400 --> 01:35:46.480
largest perhaps the largest publisher-level access 
journals but they are open access content i should  

01:35:46.480 --> 01:35:53.680
say um so there they know how to make money 
off of it and that there was a question as to  

01:35:53.680 --> 01:35:59.040
whether that's sustainable and that was part of 
the reason behind why with hybrid journals why  

01:35:59.040 --> 01:36:05.040
we didn't want to continue to support the 
elseviers and the springers with that money  

01:36:07.040 --> 01:36:12.160
philip you might have other advice just 
i mean he mentioned the various places  

01:36:12.160 --> 01:36:16.480
that you can go to look and find out are they 
reputable the directory of open access journals  

01:36:17.280 --> 01:36:22.000
um i mean you do have to do research you really 
do because there are a lot of there are a lot  

01:36:22.000 --> 01:36:30.160
of bad journals out there but um you know i think 
in the early days of of journal publishing print  

01:36:30.160 --> 01:36:35.600
journal publishing there were bad journals and 
good journals it's it's like this we have to  

01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:42.320
figure out how to make this new system work and as 
caitlin is saying i think we are at a point where  

01:36:42.320 --> 01:36:48.960
the current system is is unsustainable so it's 
going to have to change whether we like it or not  

01:36:50.720 --> 01:36:55.840
okay go ahead one thought that came into my 
mind of course checking the indexes that we  

01:36:55.840 --> 01:37:02.080
mentioned is important um director of open 
access journals um looking to see if people  

01:37:02.080 --> 01:37:08.880
in your field are publishing their people that 
you know are publishing there um but one thing  

01:37:08.880 --> 01:37:17.600
that came up that's sort of um i guess a little 
revolutionary and hasn't quite quite taken over  

01:37:17.600 --> 01:37:25.360
yet is open peer review and so there are a 
few journals uh open access journals that are  

01:37:26.720 --> 01:37:34.080
posting the peer review of the articles 
online with the article and so that is one  

01:37:34.080 --> 01:37:38.960
way of radical openness uh for you to check 
the peer reviews and see what people said  

01:37:39.760 --> 01:37:46.480
um i know the journal pure j which publishes a 
lot of life science and paleontology has gone to  

01:37:46.480 --> 01:37:52.320
this model and it's uh i forget exactly how it 
works but it's a matter of choice on both both  

01:37:52.320 --> 01:37:59.280
the author's side and their viewers side i believe 
the authors have the choice whether or not to have  

01:37:59.280 --> 01:38:04.080
open peer review or have it have their reviews 
posted or not and the reviewers have the choice  

01:38:04.080 --> 01:38:11.040
whether to attach their names to their reviews or 
not um and so i think they had maybe 40 take up  

01:38:11.040 --> 01:38:18.080
something like that there's another journal f-1000 
research that basically posts the after an initial  

01:38:18.080 --> 01:38:23.920
check basically post the article online like a 
preprint while it's being sent out for review  

01:38:23.920 --> 01:38:28.720
and then the reviews um are posted openly and 
the names are posted openly of their viewers  

01:38:29.520 --> 01:38:34.880
so that's one way of kind of radical openness 
where you can like just read the reviews and  

01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:39.680
see what people said about the article is this so 
what would happen in that instance if the reviews  

01:38:39.680 --> 01:38:44.800
come in and they're bad the paper gets rejected it 
gets rejected so it gets pulled down do they keep  

01:38:44.800 --> 01:38:50.960
it even the the pre-print wouldn't stay up 
or would they just for f-1000 i'm not sure i  

01:38:50.960 --> 01:38:55.920
think they stay up so the way that the so 
that european geophysical union which is  

01:38:55.920 --> 01:39:00.480
um publishes in a journal which i've published in 
called biogeosciences where they do this and you  

01:39:00.480 --> 01:39:05.600
when you submit your article it gets published 
and gets a doi in biogeosciences discussions  

01:39:06.240 --> 01:39:10.960
and then that's where it's open and that will stay 
up but then if it goes through peer review and  

01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:17.680
it's required that the reviewers um are 
public so you put your name on it and then um  

01:39:17.680 --> 01:39:22.800
if it the edit there's an editor and it values 
it just as it would for a normal journal and then  

01:39:22.800 --> 01:39:29.280
um if it gets accepted then it goes into biogene 
sciences as the like the flagship journal so  

01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:35.680
um but i want to comment just on your point sam 
one approach i've taken for finding open access  

01:39:35.680 --> 01:39:41.040
journals is that there's a lot of society journals 
um that have published or kind of societies that  

01:39:41.040 --> 01:39:46.880
published now um journals that have open access 
that just kind of inherent to that journal  

01:39:46.880 --> 01:39:50.160
and i feel like that's a really nice 
way of supporting your home society  

01:39:50.160 --> 01:39:55.600
um such as like ecosphere um and oh no letters um 
and so that they're generating revenue that goes  

01:39:55.600 --> 01:40:00.160
back to your society because that's where that's 
supporting but then it also um i find that because  

01:40:00.160 --> 01:40:07.840
it's within that umbrella of journals that the 
the quality of the peer review tends to be higher  

01:40:09.280 --> 01:40:16.160
i would just add that if you um don't find a 
journal or if you want to evaluate a journal  

01:40:16.160 --> 01:40:19.440
and you don't find it someplace like 
the directory of open access journals  

01:40:21.280 --> 01:40:28.960
there are two organizations um open access 
scholarly publishing association and a committee  

01:40:28.960 --> 01:40:34.960
on publishing ethics that if i was evaluating 
a journal i would go and see if the publishers  

01:40:34.960 --> 01:40:40.240
aren't members of those organizations and even if 
they're not members they have a code of conduct  

01:40:40.880 --> 01:40:45.600
and so i would evaluate the journal 
along the lines of that code of conduct  

01:40:45.600 --> 01:40:50.240
and basically what you're looking for is 
how transparent are they with their policies  

01:40:50.240 --> 01:40:54.480
do they tell you who's on their editorial 
journal do they tell you if there's a fee  

01:40:54.480 --> 01:40:58.080
before you submit your article so you 
kind of know what you're getting into

01:41:01.600 --> 01:41:10.000
yes so uh in an ideal world um say we get rid of 
the day five or they all switch to open access and  

01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:14.800
now we're looking at okay who's going to bear 
the cost for for the open access publishing  

01:41:15.360 --> 01:41:24.480
um who who should vary the cost so you mentioned 
funding agencies uh for example and if a lot of  

01:41:24.480 --> 01:41:31.760
the funding agencies are taxpayer funded um is it 
right for the taxpayers to bear the cost of the  

01:41:31.760 --> 01:41:38.080
research and also the cost of the publishing 
or should because i think about it from my  

01:41:38.080 --> 01:41:43.600
family's perspective i'm probably the only person 
in my immediate family that gives two cents about  

01:41:43.600 --> 01:41:50.240
the published literature um so uh you know is 
it right for the taxpayers period that cost or  

01:41:50.800 --> 01:41:55.200
should universities still bear that cost this 
university is the ones that are predominantly  

01:41:55.200 --> 01:42:02.400
using the literature um but we obviously just 
wouldn't have the oligopoly huge profit charges

01:42:04.640 --> 01:42:11.520
you really want to take that one out i mean i 
i have thoughts about it i mean again as i said  

01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:17.440
there's so much money in the system right now i 
mean we libraries are paying huge amounts of money  

01:42:18.160 --> 01:42:22.960
billions of dollars to pay for 
subscription journals that's money that  

01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:28.640
could go towards paying on the front end 
for works that you publish open access  

01:42:29.920 --> 01:42:36.000
that so that's money that the universities and 
colleges are already putting into the system that  

01:42:37.120 --> 01:42:40.800
i don't it's there's a question as to whether 
there's enough money there to cover it  

01:42:41.360 --> 01:42:50.400
when you combine funding agencies and 
government support and university money  

01:42:50.400 --> 01:42:56.000
already that the universities are paying 
that you can get pretty far along towards  

01:42:57.280 --> 01:43:01.520
towards making that possible will 
elsevier will the big five go away  

01:43:01.520 --> 01:43:07.520
i don't think so i don't think they're going 
away anytime soon because they know how to

01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:16.640
i mean they they're they're very shrewd and 
they know how to manage any kind of it that if  

01:43:16.640 --> 01:43:19.920
the writing handwriting is on the wall and 
they're gonna have to change an open access  

01:43:19.920 --> 01:43:26.800
they will find a way to make money off of it so i 
think that's that's a question to me that i think  

01:43:27.840 --> 01:43:34.960
a lot of the people um currently negotiating 
these agreements with elsevier think somehow  

01:43:34.960 --> 01:43:39.200
that elsewhere is going to go away and i just 
don't think that's going to happen myself  

01:43:40.160 --> 01:43:43.440
so so i wanted to say two things one

01:43:46.400 --> 01:43:52.160
i don't know what the answer is and in part 
because there are scholars around the world  

01:43:52.160 --> 01:43:57.600
for whom two thousand dollars 
and that's not a lot of money um  

01:43:58.640 --> 01:44:03.840
whereas other scholars would say two thousand 
dollars is a ton of money we want to hear from  

01:44:03.840 --> 01:44:09.760
those people too we want to hear from people 
who whose universities don't have a lot of money  

01:44:10.720 --> 01:44:17.200
and in places where the exchange rate is 
not favorable um i forgot my other point  

01:44:19.200 --> 01:44:22.480
i had a couple of thoughts 
on that the first is that  

01:44:23.040 --> 01:44:28.640
some people have pushed back on that taxpayer 
argument to say that it never should have been  

01:44:28.640 --> 01:44:33.040
truncated this truncation between doing 
the research and publishing the results  

01:44:33.040 --> 01:44:36.720
never should have been there in the first place 
because publishing results is part of the research  

01:44:37.440 --> 01:44:41.920
so it always should have been 
open and funded by the taxpayers

01:44:44.240 --> 01:44:54.080
and now i'm forgetting in terms of openness 
we have uh i think what we're finding is that  

01:44:54.080 --> 01:45:00.080
the articles get a remarkable amount of use when 
they're open we have an increasingly educated  

01:45:00.080 --> 01:45:06.800
populace um it's often surprising to people how 
many downloads how many views that they get when  

01:45:06.800 --> 01:45:14.160
their articles are open and it's really hard to 
predict who might find use in that work so that's  

01:45:14.160 --> 01:45:19.840
another thing that's come out of the open access 
movement as well i remember with this mistake  

01:45:21.200 --> 01:45:28.480
there is a movement to hold publishers to 
pay for to be paid for their services period  

01:45:29.360 --> 01:45:37.600
um and to define what those are um so 
i think that benefits there is a big  

01:45:37.600 --> 01:45:43.840
pushback on abc's right now though particularly 
with scholars in the developing world article  

01:45:44.640 --> 01:45:50.960
yeah article processing charges right so this is 
the charge that you uh pay uh when your article  

01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:56.320
is accepted in an open access term not all of them 
but a good number of them do have these charges so  

01:45:57.280 --> 01:46:00.560
if you're a scholar in the developing 
world and you get an article accepted  

01:46:00.560 --> 01:46:05.520
in one of these journals then you know 
two thousand dollars is insurmountable  

01:46:06.080 --> 01:46:13.360
for a lot of these scholars so some open access 
journals do have waivers so if you're from a  

01:46:13.360 --> 01:46:19.920
certain group of countries defined by unesco 
then you might get a waiver for that article  

01:46:20.720 --> 01:46:26.000
but it raises abc's for everyone else because 
you still have to pay for the articles published  

01:46:26.000 --> 01:46:33.040
but there is a significant i think pushback for 
abcs because now things have flipped if more  

01:46:33.040 --> 01:46:37.920
things are open access more people around the 
world can read those articles but then you're  

01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:43.200
putting up a barrier to publish for a lot of these 
open access journals so if you're a scholar in  

01:46:43.200 --> 01:46:48.160
developing world suddenly you can read a lot of 
stuff but now you can't publish your research  

01:46:48.160 --> 01:46:56.480
so because of the open access fees so again the 
ideal is to try to make it free for both sides

01:46:58.800 --> 01:47:08.000
um so um two questions one hopefully quotes um 
the first one being um what so we talk about  

01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:15.200
like the uh charge associated with open access on 
for an open access journal like especially like  

01:47:15.200 --> 01:47:21.040
a non-profit open access journal what is that 
money actually going to in the first place are  

01:47:21.040 --> 01:47:27.440
they seriously still printing off physical paper 
copies when it's all available publicly online  

01:47:28.240 --> 01:47:33.680
like uh just like what is that money actually 
going to do is it all just server hosting costs

01:47:44.560 --> 01:47:50.560
not peer review but um the editorial process and 
you still have type setting layout you just don't  

01:47:50.560 --> 01:47:58.320
have the printing pause which is small printing is 
now a small portion of overall cost okay um and so  

01:47:58.320 --> 01:48:06.000
then a bulk of that work is in the way could there 
be the editing from a content perspective and also  

01:48:06.000 --> 01:48:11.680
the editing from a formatting perspective with the 
formatting being like a standardization sort of  

01:48:12.240 --> 01:48:16.640
okay cool awesome thank you very much and there's 
like a lot of expertise that goes into that and  

01:48:16.640 --> 01:48:24.240
it gets it's sometimes under appreciated that 
publishers are there for a reason when they  

01:48:24.240 --> 01:48:30.160
do they perform a service and if that all fell on 
the shoulders of academics that we all had to then  

01:48:30.160 --> 01:48:36.720
edit our own work we'd be in a very different 
world there is very little transparency  

01:48:37.360 --> 01:48:44.640
on apc costs for sure that's a huge gap and 
i might only know like a handful of journals  

01:48:44.640 --> 01:48:49.440
who have tried to be transparent on that ubiquity 
is one which is a service that we use to publish  

01:48:49.440 --> 01:48:53.760
journals here in the library we have several 
journals including some graduate student journals  

01:48:54.320 --> 01:48:59.280
they're pretty transparent on what each step costs 
and that sort of thing and there's a few other  

01:48:59.280 --> 01:49:04.480
journals that have done it but in general there's 
very little transparency and they tend to scale  

01:49:04.480 --> 01:49:13.840
with prestige so like nature communications is 
5200 now which is a ridiculous apc for all of us  

01:49:14.880 --> 01:49:19.360
but you know for some of these publishers make 
i don't know what their acceptance rate is  

01:49:20.000 --> 01:49:25.760
but some of it is taken up by just the amount 
of papers they have to reject their editorial  

01:49:25.760 --> 01:49:30.480
costs they're managing if you're only accepting 
10 percent of your papers or something can they  

01:49:30.480 --> 01:49:37.680
pay their reviewers though well they'll pay 
an editorial manager to you know oversee the  

01:49:38.400 --> 01:49:42.880
editorial process and peer review sending things 
out for peer review and that sort of thing and  

01:49:42.880 --> 01:49:48.080
a lot of the money that they're paying the other 
part of it that's would go away is there's a lot  

01:49:48.080 --> 01:49:54.320
of money that goes into access control so making 
sure that that you know the subscriptions are paid  

01:49:54.880 --> 01:49:59.680
that people can't get in or i mean that is 
hugely expensive so that that's hard to tell  

01:49:59.680 --> 01:50:05.040
how much of the of that goes into it but it's 
a big big expense so that would be a savings  

01:50:06.080 --> 01:50:08.800
so this is the case also 
with textbooks as you know

01:50:12.160 --> 01:50:16.400
i have a feeling there's many of us not just 
me in here who would be first-time publishers  

01:50:16.400 --> 01:50:23.840
any advice for getting the first article out there

01:50:29.120 --> 01:50:35.280
um the beneficiary of you know i did my phd 
at syracuse and i was in a culture there  

01:50:35.280 --> 01:50:38.800
it was very much encouraging 
me to look at independent  

01:50:38.800 --> 01:50:42.720
independent publishers smaller 
journals lesser known journals  

01:50:42.720 --> 01:50:49.360
open access journals and in my field book reviews 
were a really good first choice for publication  

01:50:50.480 --> 01:50:56.400
but i also i also started my career at an r2 
uh and so i was surrounded by colleagues there  

01:50:56.400 --> 01:51:02.400
was a culture there that was actually quite 
encouraging about risk um this is really just  

01:51:02.400 --> 01:51:06.480
a sort of a footnote maybe to your question 
but it's like to take the temperature of the  

01:51:06.480 --> 01:51:11.600
departments that you perspectively foresee trying 
to become a part a part of assuming you foresee  

01:51:11.600 --> 01:51:16.320
an academic future right like kind of gauging 
what are what are these institution types how

01:51:16.320 --> 01:51:19.680
different