WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:13.970 A:middle L:90% Right then, it's me. Hello there, morning 2 00:00:13.970 --> 00:00:18.809 A:middle L:90% everybody. I apologize for the croaky voice. But um, maybe we'll be able to battle through 3 00:00:18.809 --> 00:00:22.120 A:middle L:90% that. Um, so I'm Neil Grindley and I 4 00:00:22.129 --> 00:00:26.059 A:middle L:90% work in an organization called JISC in the UK. And 5 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:29.699 A:middle L:90% so we're gonna run a panel now. So uh, 6 00:00:29.710 --> 00:00:32.479 A:middle L:90% can I invite my panel members to please come 7 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.750 A:middle L:90% up and take your seats and I shall reposition myself to another microphone. 8 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.619 A:middle L:90% Mm hmm. So let's check these microphones. 9 00:00:53.619 --> 00:00:58.329 A:middle L:90% Yes, they seem to be working. So thanks very 10 00:00:58.329 --> 00:01:03.500 A:middle L:90% much Aaron for that wrap up yesterday. Also useful 11 00:01:03.500 --> 00:01:08.260 A:middle L:90% points that Uh huh. Mm hmm, mm hmm, Tom is 12 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:15.370 A:middle L:90% veering away and didn't catch anything thing. Okay 13 00:01:15.379 --> 00:01:19.030 A:middle L:90% So lovely to see you all here in Barcelona. 14 00:01:19.030 --> 00:01:21.689 A:middle L:90% Come to Barcelona they said, the weather's gonna 15 00:01:21.700 --> 00:01:26.629 A:middle L:90% be lovely. I think the weather does look like 16 00:01:26.629 --> 00:01:30.060 A:middle L:90% it's improving so it's a good sign. It's a good omen, good omen for 17 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:34.430 A:middle L:90% today's conversation. Um, so I'm gonna let 18 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.560 A:middle L:90% my panel introduce themselves actually just to test their voices 19 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:38.730 A:middle L:90% and their microphones. So you've heard from me. 20 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:42.780 A:middle L:90% Good morning. My name is Tom Cramer. 21 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:45.959 A:middle L:90% I'm the Chief Technology Strategist from Stanford University Libraries 22 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:47.730 A:middle L:90% Do you want us to say more than that? 23 00:01:47.739 --> 00:01:52.590 A:middle L:90% Yes. Why don't you say one thing that 24 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.049 A:middle L:90% has relevance to the conversation we're about to have? 25 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.430 A:middle L:90% We are going to talk about efficiency of solutions and 26 00:01:59.430 --> 00:02:01.299 A:middle L:90% I think I am a technical idealist. I don't know if 27 00:02:01.299 --> 00:02:05.230 A:middle L:90% I'm the technical idealist or a technical idealist 28 00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:07.560 A:middle L:90% on the panel. Um, but as part of that I will 29 00:02:07.569 --> 00:02:10.180 A:middle L:90% be talking I guess to some of the community based 30 00:02:10.189 --> 00:02:14.259 A:middle L:90% initiatives that I've been involved in. I'm a board 31 00:02:14.259 --> 00:02:15.669 A:middle L:90% member of DuraSpace, which is a stewardess stewardship 32 00:02:15.669 --> 00:02:20.509 A:middle L:90% organization for the DSpace and Fedora. I'm a founder 33 00:02:20.509 --> 00:02:22.639 A:middle L:90% of the Hydra Collaborative and I'm a member of the 34 00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:24.479 A:middle L:90% Fedora steering group. So all initiatives that in some 35 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:35.289 A:middle L:90% way touch on digital preservation. Thanks Tom, Is 36 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.400 A:middle L:90% that alive? Hey oh, I'm alive! Um My name is Tom 37 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.180 A:middle L:90% Wilson also probably some confusion amongst the Toms here, 38 00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:47.710 A:middle L:90% but um I'm an Associate Dean at the University 39 00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:52.550 A:middle L:90% Libraries from the University of Alabama in the state of 40 00:02:52.550 --> 00:02:55.090 A:middle L:90% Alabama in the U.S. Um I'm also 41 00:02:55.090 --> 00:03:01.259 A:middle L:90% here representing the Alabama Digital Peservation Network um and I 42 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:07.610 A:middle L:90% might be the crank on the panel. We'll see how it goes. 43 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.900 A:middle L:90% Okay. Um so my name is Sabine Schrimpf, I 44 00:03:16.909 --> 00:03:21.830 A:middle L:90% work at the German National Library in Frankfurt as a 45 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:27.340 A:middle L:90% Digital Preservation Officer and I'm involved in the daily activities 46 00:03:27.340 --> 00:03:31.050 A:middle L:90% of the German Network of Expertise in Digital Preservation, called Nestor, which 47 00:03:31.050 --> 00:03:38.539 A:middle L:90% is a community driven initiative where most of the organizations in Germany 48 00:03:38.550 --> 00:03:46.009 A:middle L:90% that are active in digital preservation come together to share knowledge and expertise, share 49 00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:51.659 A:middle L:90% worries and questions and try to find common solutions or 50 00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:53.259 A:middle L:90% maybe also different solutions but they make sure they talk about their problems [inaudible]. 51 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:05.759 A:middle L:90% So, that's the perspective I bring to the panel, I guess. I'm also involved in the most 52 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:11.719 A:middle L:90% wonderful project for you by the cost 53 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:14.969 A:middle L:90% of curation. Um well we also that's not very 54 00:04:14.969 --> 00:04:19.680 A:middle L:90% long. Yeah. Okay, thanks, Sabine, 55 00:04:19.689 --> 00:04:24.930 A:middle L:90% thanks for plugging the project. She says I'm cool 56 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:27.199 A:middle L:90% later on and I probably should have mentioned that in 57 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.240 A:middle L:90% relation to my interest in the discussion we're about to 58 00:04:30.250 --> 00:04:33.050 A:middle L:90% have um we're looking better about trying to think about 59 00:04:33.050 --> 00:04:40.079 A:middle L:90% the economics of digital preservations. Um so let me 60 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.810 A:middle L:90% just briefly introduce the topic that we're about to talk 61 00:04:42.810 --> 00:04:45.170 A:middle L:90% about, we have to do any kind of a 62 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:47.939 A:middle L:90% big presentation before and wanted sort of diet strange discussion 63 00:04:47.949 --> 00:04:51.589 A:middle L:90% if possible, or into a discursive mode. I 64 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:55.060 A:middle L:90% suspect that we could probably the four of us would 65 00:04:55.060 --> 00:05:02.399 A:middle L:90% probably talk for the next hour, but but we 66 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:03.600 A:middle L:90% would like to hear from you as well. Of 67 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:09.139 A:middle L:90% course, that's that's that's wrong in this discussion up 68 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:12.939 A:middle L:90% quite quickly. Um but the reason we're here on 69 00:05:12.939 --> 00:05:16.069 A:middle L:90% this panel for this hour is to think how how 70 00:05:16.069 --> 00:05:18.660 A:middle L:90% can we employ the resources that we have available to 71 00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:23.860 A:middle L:90% us most economically to achieve our digital preservation objectives? 72 00:05:24.939 --> 00:05:27.290 A:middle L:90% So that's a question that, you know, all 73 00:05:27.290 --> 00:05:30.459 A:middle L:90% sorts of ways. Um we can we can talk 74 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:32.500 A:middle L:90% from our experience, I care about a range of 75 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:38.160 A:middle L:90% initiatives, um some some well funded initiatives, some 76 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:44.079 A:middle L:90% some kind of grassroots initiatives, um that's uh what 77 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.019 A:middle L:90% we're going to try and do. Is it possible 78 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:47.689 A:middle L:90% that I don't know how many of these principles we 79 00:05:47.689 --> 00:05:50.319 A:middle L:90% might get to, but I'm gonna try and scribbled 80 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.959 A:middle L:90% down some things as we talk and perhaps a riot 81 00:05:54.970 --> 00:05:57.379 A:middle L:90% , a few, a few principles that we might 82 00:05:57.389 --> 00:06:01.920 A:middle L:90% use for discussion uh continuing this conference. And perhaps 83 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.670 A:middle L:90% we only if we can um about this question, 84 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:11.069 A:middle L:90% how can we most economically and efficiently go about this 85 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:15.509 A:middle L:90% business digital preservation, because we're all engaged in and 86 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:20.290 A:middle L:90% and why might assess principles help? Well, if 87 00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:23.660 A:middle L:90% we're talking about collaboration here, we're talking about alignment 88 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:30.149 A:middle L:90% and collaboration cooperation and shared understanding of this process is 89 00:06:30.149 --> 00:06:33.040 A:middle L:90% clearly uh it's a very good thing if we wish 90 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:38.519 A:middle L:90% to have this collaborative principles. Um so and a 91 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:42.189 A:middle L:90% set of principles might lead to share ideas about strategy 92 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.959 A:middle L:90% and strategy, share strategy might lead, tactics and 93 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:46.019 A:middle L:90% tactics might lead to policy that I think I think 94 00:06:46.029 --> 00:06:48.610 A:middle L:90% you know, we might cascade down if we're gonna 95 00:06:48.610 --> 00:06:55.420 A:middle L:90% write these kind of principles. Um So right. 96 00:06:55.420 --> 00:06:57.879 A:middle L:90% I'm making assumptions here from the very start in this 97 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.589 A:middle L:90% panel is about questioning assumptions and checking that assumptions. 98 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.759 A:middle L:90% And the 1st 1 is about the notion of collaboration 99 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:13.610 A:middle L:90% . Um So collaboration, international collaboration films ensures it 100 00:07:13.629 --> 00:07:15.259 A:middle L:90% feels like it's a good and positive thing but of 101 00:07:15.259 --> 00:07:18.350 A:middle L:90% course it comes with a cost. Um You can't 102 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:25.509 A:middle L:90% you can't put effort into partnership building without actually putting 103 00:07:25.509 --> 00:07:29.259 A:middle L:90% that effort in and it costs money. So brings 104 00:07:29.259 --> 00:07:30.589 A:middle L:90% us to this first question. This first assumption. 105 00:07:30.589 --> 00:07:33.379 A:middle L:90% That might be worth checking. I don't care. 106 00:07:33.389 --> 00:07:38.259 A:middle L:90% Um Is it right to assume that generally speaking, 107 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:46.910 A:middle L:90% um what is it with you collaboration question. I'm 108 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:48.550 A:middle L:90% just gonna take a step back there and just say 109 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:56.459 A:middle L:90% cough as well. Um This is actually assumption I'm 110 00:07:56.459 --> 00:08:00.220 A:middle L:90% making there about. Um can we afford to do 111 00:08:00.230 --> 00:08:03.310 A:middle L:90% the preservation? Can we afford to do as much 112 00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:05.269 A:middle L:90% preservation as we want? Um So let's get to 113 00:08:05.269 --> 00:08:07.850 A:middle L:90% this first question is it right to assume. Generally 114 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:11.170 A:middle L:90% speaking that we can't afford to do as much digital 115 00:08:11.170 --> 00:08:15.089 A:middle L:90% preservation as we think we need to, but that's 116 00:08:15.089 --> 00:08:18.970 A:middle L:90% who tom is closest. Oh this problem. So 117 00:08:18.970 --> 00:08:20.689 A:middle L:90% I'm actually gonna let the top to my left hand 118 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.459 A:middle L:90% first because whatever he says, I'm gonna disagree with 119 00:08:22.459 --> 00:08:33.940 A:middle L:90% that discussing story so. Well probably first things first 120 00:08:33.950 --> 00:08:39.159 A:middle L:90% , I never believed that it's correct to assume anything 121 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.230 A:middle L:90% but in this particular case, but I think this 122 00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:48.909 A:middle L:90% is a is a much more complex issue. But 123 00:08:48.909 --> 00:08:54.559 A:middle L:90% let me let me lay some personal groundwork here 1st 124 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.820 A:middle L:90% my background is in ancient history and from that background 125 00:08:58.830 --> 00:09:05.559 A:middle L:90% I've learned and you're still that things will be lost 126 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:13.600 A:middle L:90% and humanistic inquiry amazingly still going even with those lost 127 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.480 A:middle L:90% items. Um So I'm less inclined to say that 128 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:26.480 A:middle L:90% it's realistic that we can preserve everything. I think 129 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.720 A:middle L:90% this is the main economist, your idealism might come 130 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.029 A:middle L:90% out here. I don't think that it's an effective 131 00:09:33.029 --> 00:09:37.769 A:middle L:90% strategy to start with the assumption that we can preserve 132 00:09:37.779 --> 00:09:39.919 A:middle L:90% everything. So I'm okay with losing some things. 133 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:45.169 A:middle L:90% Having said that, I don't mean that um I'm 134 00:09:45.169 --> 00:09:52.950 A:middle L:90% interested in losing voices in the record that we preserving 135 00:09:52.809 --> 00:09:56.950 A:middle L:90% . I'm just saying that I don't an effective strategy 136 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.259 A:middle L:90% to assume that we must come up with a solution 137 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:03.830 A:middle L:90% that allows us to preserve everything because I think that's 138 00:10:03.830 --> 00:10:11.720 A:middle L:90% terribly unrealistic. Having said that however um I do 139 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:18.960 A:middle L:90% think that it's important that we understand the preservation gains 140 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:24.379 A:middle L:90% value and strength and robustness from hetero, I mean 141 00:10:24.379 --> 00:10:31.159 A:middle L:90% that in every layer of preservation stack hardware, software 142 00:10:31.169 --> 00:10:35.070 A:middle L:90% process procedure etcetera. So any international effort that we 143 00:10:35.070 --> 00:10:39.580 A:middle L:90% have. I don't think the goal of that should 144 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:41.889 A:middle L:90% be that everybody everybody does things the same way. 145 00:10:41.889 --> 00:10:50.950 A:middle L:90% I think that preservation strategy thanks tom so I'm starting 146 00:10:50.950 --> 00:10:54.240 A:middle L:90% to try and formulate my principal and you should be 147 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.000 A:middle L:90% comfortable with loss and we'll work on this as we 148 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.230 A:middle L:90% go along. Um So I disagree, I do 149 00:11:03.230 --> 00:11:05.659 A:middle L:90% think it's safe to assume some things. Um You 150 00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:11.669 A:middle L:90% know the I would say that preservation it was interested 151 00:11:11.669 --> 00:11:13.250 A:middle L:90% in running through his cliff was running through aligning national 152 00:11:13.250 --> 00:11:16.720 A:middle L:90% approaches to digital preservation. He talked I think greatly 153 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:20.029 A:middle L:90% about alignment and he talked about national approaches and he 154 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.009 A:middle L:90% didn't talk about digital preservation from Aaron summary. I 155 00:11:22.009 --> 00:11:24.200 A:middle L:90% think there was another track that got into that a 156 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:28.870 A:middle L:90% little bit yesterday. Um I think we can afford 157 00:11:28.870 --> 00:11:31.960 A:middle L:90% to do digital preservation on everything as has been traditionally 158 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:35.179 A:middle L:90% imagined. I think that's absolutely true. I also 159 00:11:35.179 --> 00:11:37.299 A:middle L:90% think that that's probably a very good thing because if 160 00:11:37.299 --> 00:11:39.029 A:middle L:90% we could but I question I would highly questionable that 161 00:11:39.029 --> 00:11:41.759 A:middle L:90% you want the actual investment that will be making in 162 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.879 A:middle L:90% those phases. I would like to see um uh 163 00:11:46.889 --> 00:11:52.019 A:middle L:90% the ongoing demonstrated value of preservation and preservation related activities 164 00:11:52.029 --> 00:11:54.289 A:middle L:90% . And I think that mechanism is probably the single 165 00:11:54.289 --> 00:11:56.870 A:middle L:90% best investment that we can make is defining. Why 166 00:11:56.870 --> 00:11:58.529 A:middle L:90% do you preserve things who's going to pay for it 167 00:11:58.529 --> 00:12:01.100 A:middle L:90% and that value moving forward of course we can preserve 168 00:12:01.100 --> 00:12:03.350 A:middle L:90% more things. Of course we could get more content 169 00:12:03.350 --> 00:12:05.750 A:middle L:90% and of course we could get bigger storage rates and 170 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:07.309 A:middle L:90% pay more people to curation. But I'm not sure 171 00:12:07.309 --> 00:12:11.889 A:middle L:90% that's really the question at this point. I'm not 172 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:13.889 A:middle L:90% sure you probably don't think that that disagrees with you 173 00:12:13.899 --> 00:12:20.750 A:middle L:90% . But this is my question, assumptions. Okay 174 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:26.460 A:middle L:90% . Don't I don't I don't disagree either. I 175 00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:31.570 A:middle L:90% think um I um I also see that digital preservation 176 00:12:31.570 --> 00:12:37.139 A:middle L:90% always requires choices because of the different to animal preservation 177 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:43.460 A:middle L:90% . The objects don't just sit there and oh yeah 178 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.210 A:middle L:90% , attacked for years, decades and centuries. So 179 00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:54.350 A:middle L:90% digital preservation requires measures. Whenever we make a decision 180 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.980 A:middle L:90% for an active measure, it's a decision against something 181 00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:58.309 A:middle L:90% else. So we need to decide which connection to 182 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.559 A:middle L:90% three. First with which strategy started to treat it 183 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.590 A:middle L:90% . Most institutions won't invest in migration emulation at a 184 00:13:07.590 --> 00:13:11.769 A:middle L:90% time. So we need to make sure the decision 185 00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:24.820 A:middle L:90% the greatest portion from an origin institutions don't make the 186 00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:28.860 A:middle L:90% same choices. Please try again something else at a 187 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:39.659 A:middle L:90% very large scale execution. Most valuable. For example 188 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:50.330 A:middle L:90% . Cold things are okay, that sounds like a 189 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:52.840 A:middle L:90% strategic approach. Um Can I just sort of ask 190 00:13:52.990 --> 00:13:56.490 A:middle L:90% more directly if you have more money than three of 191 00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:01.149 A:middle L:90% you, would you preserve more? I know, 192 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.850 A:middle L:90% thanks. No, there was a bottleneck and stuff 193 00:14:07.940 --> 00:14:11.860 A:middle L:90% . So even if we have Mhm. Um was 194 00:14:11.860 --> 00:14:16.919 A:middle L:90% that I couldn't Mhm. At this point I'm going 195 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:18.960 A:middle L:90% to try and get the audience involved a little bit 196 00:14:20.019 --> 00:14:22.470 A:middle L:90% of a show of hands um gonna ask three questions 197 00:14:22.470 --> 00:14:24.000 A:middle L:90% here. If you have more money, would you 198 00:14:24.009 --> 00:14:30.039 A:middle L:90% deserve more um or well that's our show. And 199 00:14:30.049 --> 00:14:33.570 A:middle L:90% if you have more resources available to you in your 200 00:14:33.570 --> 00:14:39.419 A:middle L:90% organization, would you do more digital preservation? Right 201 00:14:39.429 --> 00:14:41.799 A:middle L:90% , okay. There's quite a lot of bands actually 202 00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:46.990 A:middle L:90% . So um next question, the same hands got 203 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:48.330 A:middle L:90% a little bit, I don't know if um mm 204 00:14:48.330 --> 00:14:56.570 A:middle L:90% hmm is your is your current digital preservation strategy enough 205 00:14:56.580 --> 00:15:01.649 A:middle L:90% for you in terms of what you're capable? The 206 00:15:01.649 --> 00:15:05.570 A:middle L:90% capacity that you have a moment? Very good question 207 00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:11.629 A:middle L:90% . No, that's not going to that. Which 208 00:15:11.629 --> 00:15:15.759 A:middle L:90% was actually what will happen. Okay, so let 209 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:16.889 A:middle L:90% me get back to that question kind of confused about 210 00:15:16.889 --> 00:15:20.070 A:middle L:90% to start with terms of collaboration with very poor here 211 00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:22.389 A:middle L:90% and it was all over the place. Um This 212 00:15:22.389 --> 00:15:28.649 A:middle L:90% is not this collaboration. Um so as I said 213 00:15:28.649 --> 00:15:33.639 A:middle L:90% before, collaboration intuitively feels positive. Um but is 214 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.840 A:middle L:90% it genuinely a cost effective use of resources? It's 215 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:43.279 A:middle L:90% the safest it takes a lot of effort putting this 216 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.580 A:middle L:90% thing together. Um Is it worthwhile actually trying to 217 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:52.759 A:middle L:90% reach out internationally to collaborate. Digital preservation, savina 218 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.179 A:middle L:90% ? Um depends on the case that you are collaborating 219 00:15:58.190 --> 00:16:06.200 A:middle L:90% on. Um I don't think that generation in itself 220 00:16:06.210 --> 00:16:08.149 A:middle L:90% just for the same. Um it depends on the 221 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.960 A:middle L:90% Yeah, um there are certain, I think you 222 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.370 A:middle L:90% need a business case for color marriage and just making 223 00:16:15.429 --> 00:16:19.379 A:middle L:90% the business case for everything for anything else? Um 224 00:16:19.389 --> 00:16:23.110 A:middle L:90% maybe that would remind yourself important motivations that led to 225 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:26.960 A:middle L:90% the foundation of the Digital Preservation Coalition in the UK 226 00:16:30.139 --> 00:16:34.490 A:middle L:90% . It was found that institutions needed a collaborative effort 227 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:41.090 A:middle L:90% to get digital preservation on the agenda, which is 228 00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:44.639 A:middle L:90% successful Over the last 10 years. And at this 229 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.720 A:middle L:90% point on the other hand, it was felt that 230 00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:52.639 A:middle L:90% despite central differences, most of the institutions shared the 231 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:59.879 A:middle L:90% same technical, many organizations problems something multiplied in joining 232 00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:06.240 A:middle L:90% forces. So in these areas, collaboration is perfectly 233 00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:11.359 A:middle L:90% better. They're making Yes. Without me bringing examples 234 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:22.849 A:middle L:90% where the cost maybe higher. Right, thanks. 235 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:26.980 A:middle L:90% I will excuse me. I would I would agree 236 00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:30.569 A:middle L:90% with that general. I think there are issues Sort 237 00:17:30.569 --> 00:17:33.650 A:middle L:90% of two in my mind to categories of issues about 238 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:41.460 A:middle L:90% evaluating the value of international collaboration really any collaboration. 239 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:48.559 A:middle L:90% Um one category has to do with finding metrics for 240 00:17:48.569 --> 00:17:56.009 A:middle L:90% measuring outcomes because I think to be very blunt this 241 00:17:56.019 --> 00:18:00.500 A:middle L:90% collaboration is really, I mean there's a feel good 242 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:03.490 A:middle L:90% sense about this, but ultimately what we're after is 243 00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:07.240 A:middle L:90% mutual benefit and not just feel good benefit, but 244 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:12.900 A:middle L:90% we have rubber on the road can Mhm. The 245 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:17.710 A:middle L:90% other category, I think has to do with scoping 246 00:18:17.740 --> 00:18:22.390 A:middle L:90% what the expectations are any kind of collaboration. I 247 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:27.269 A:middle L:90% think that it may have been in Clifford yesterday. 248 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.339 A:middle L:90% You know, we've had a lot of talk how 249 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:37.490 A:middle L:90% about some action that in order to facilitate action we 250 00:18:37.490 --> 00:18:41.960 A:middle L:90% need to be very clear about what expectations we have 251 00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:44.759 A:middle L:90% . So that going into a collaboration, all the 252 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:48.579 A:middle L:90% parties involved. You know, it's sort of a 253 00:18:48.589 --> 00:18:52.680 A:middle L:90% shared understanding of where, where we're heading, what 254 00:18:52.690 --> 00:18:59.960 A:middle L:90% what's our our ultimate outcome from this class? I'm 255 00:18:59.960 --> 00:19:06.640 A:middle L:90% loving that, scooping the expectations around. Um yeah 256 00:19:06.650 --> 00:19:08.730 A:middle L:90% , so I I I'd spend probably half of my 257 00:19:08.730 --> 00:19:12.680 A:middle L:90% time orchestrating these kinds of collaborations and seeking out partners 258 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.630 A:middle L:90% to work with at stanford or outside of stanford for 259 00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:18.230 A:middle L:90% stanford to engage with. And I have to say 260 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:19.559 A:middle L:90% that working with other people is really a pain. 261 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.109 A:middle L:90% Yes, that's what they all have their own ideas 262 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:25.839 A:middle L:90% . They all have their own politics. There's an 263 00:19:25.849 --> 00:19:27.359 A:middle L:90% enormous amount of overhead. I mean, it's just 264 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:30.759 A:middle L:90% it's it's a terrible thing to do on the hydro 265 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.849 A:middle L:90% project Anyway, I'm saying, which is if you 266 00:19:33.849 --> 00:19:36.130 A:middle L:90% want to go fast, go alone, if you 267 00:19:36.130 --> 00:19:37.029 A:middle L:90% want to go far go together. This is something 268 00:19:37.029 --> 00:19:41.019 A:middle L:90% that al gore popularized Late 90s, early 2000s as 269 00:19:41.019 --> 00:19:45.039 A:middle L:90% it was quoted as an African proper um uh and 270 00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:48.890 A:middle L:90% we've certainly found that actually true is that the problem 271 00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:49.690 A:middle L:90% space is too big to be able to solve by 272 00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:52.849 A:middle L:90% yourself. So collaborating is actually the less painful option 273 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.019 A:middle L:90% then right in your own or buying something that you 274 00:19:56.029 --> 00:19:59.549 A:middle L:90% can't really understand or before you maintain the literature. 275 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.420 A:middle L:90% I think the I would just echo what said is 276 00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:06.319 A:middle L:90% the there has to be alignment, there has to 277 00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:08.140 A:middle L:90% be a common purpose and a mutual benefit that underlie 278 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:11.190 A:middle L:90% underpins the collaboration. I think too often in our 279 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:14.220 A:middle L:90% space that that gets to double its sort of money 280 00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:15.630 A:middle L:90% . The collaborators all agreed that what they want is 281 00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:18.289 A:middle L:90% money. Um And so that doesn't lead to an 282 00:20:18.289 --> 00:20:22.930 A:middle L:90% effective or sustained collaboration. So I think that's problematic 283 00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.559 A:middle L:90% . I also think within our space we're actually not 284 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:26.480 A:middle L:90% very good at collaborating, we're good at, we're 285 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:29.319 A:middle L:90% pretty good at cooperating in some cases, we're good 286 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.470 A:middle L:90% at coordination. Um But in terms of coming together 287 00:20:32.470 --> 00:20:37.079 A:middle L:90% to accomplish joint objectives with a combined team were not 288 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.329 A:middle L:90% that it's hard to do and I think it's something 289 00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:44.190 A:middle L:90% where we need to work on ourselves before we can 290 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.240 A:middle L:90% work with other people. Um So at this point 291 00:20:48.250 --> 00:20:48.609 A:middle L:90% , but one of the things that we have found 292 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:51.529 A:middle L:90% though is if you can sustain a collaboration over a 293 00:20:51.529 --> 00:20:53.079 A:middle L:90% long time, I think you can invert that equation 294 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.259 A:middle L:90% , whereas if you want to go far together, 295 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:56.980 A:middle L:90% if you want to go fast jump on what other 296 00:20:56.990 --> 00:20:59.500 A:middle L:90% people have already done and we've certainly seen that in 297 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:02.349 A:middle L:90% a number of success stories in this community. Mhm 298 00:21:07.339 --> 00:21:10.369 A:middle L:90% . Crankiness, competition going on. So I'm getting 299 00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:11.630 A:middle L:90% the networking with people as a pain. But collaborating 300 00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:15.769 A:middle L:90% is the less painful option. I ain't got on 301 00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:19.200 A:middle L:90% there, so um any views from the audience about 302 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.259 A:middle L:90% successful collaboration, anybody prepared to put their hand in 303 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:26.019 A:middle L:90% the air and say, well actually I think this 304 00:21:26.029 --> 00:21:30.259 A:middle L:90% thing that I'm about to say very successful international collaboration 305 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:38.680 A:middle L:90% , Yes, okay, so we're gonna sort of 306 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:44.559 A:middle L:90% drill down but some more detail here about the economic 307 00:21:44.569 --> 00:21:47.529 A:middle L:90% , Don't forget we're talking through very much economic lens 308 00:21:47.529 --> 00:21:51.329 A:middle L:90% on the whole of this conversation here. Um so 309 00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:55.509 A:middle L:90% I'll sort of think about how we get digital preservation 310 00:21:55.509 --> 00:21:59.069 A:middle L:90% and actually noticed within the organization or actually funded or 311 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.349 A:middle L:90% sustainably funded. We've spoken to Aaron said this morning 312 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.500 A:middle L:90% some of yesterday's commentary about, and we wonder whether 313 00:22:07.509 --> 00:22:11.450 A:middle L:90% funding are drying up here for for visual presentation activity 314 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:15.359 A:middle L:90% . So there's a sort of often stated ideal that 315 00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:21.240 A:middle L:90% digital preservation should be integrated into the mindset and the 316 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:23.269 A:middle L:90% culture of of our organizations to the extent that it 317 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.339 A:middle L:90% becomes a kind of accepted budget line within our core 318 00:22:27.339 --> 00:22:32.539 A:middle L:90% funding. Um so is this actually realistic? Can 319 00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:34.869 A:middle L:90% we get our financial officers in our organizations to actually 320 00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:40.200 A:middle L:90% criticized the budget for digital preservation? Will they even 321 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:44.420 A:middle L:90% know what it is? Tom listen, I will 322 00:22:44.430 --> 00:22:48.440 A:middle L:90% . Yes. So we've got a uh, the 323 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:49.700 A:middle L:90% university library in its name, from Michael Keller had 324 00:22:49.710 --> 00:22:53.180 A:middle L:90% kind of a mini state of library session two weeks 325 00:22:53.180 --> 00:22:56.730 A:middle L:90% ago and he said two things that were kind of 326 00:22:56.730 --> 00:23:00.059 A:middle L:90% surprising to meet someone from the audience Aston, what 327 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:02.440 A:middle L:90% do you think is the single most important initiative that 328 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.299 A:middle L:90% you're engaged in library calling on these everywhere all at 329 00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:08.390 A:middle L:90% the same time doing lots of things. Um, 330 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.049 A:middle L:90% and uh, the first thing he said is our 331 00:23:11.059 --> 00:23:15.509 A:middle L:90% number one top priority is to spend out with the 332 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:17.730 A:middle L:90% money that we have received from the provost that we 333 00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:19.299 A:middle L:90% call the digital library to build up program. Is 334 00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:22.450 A:middle L:90% that the head of the new buildings ahead of getting 335 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:23.839 A:middle L:90% grants from getting anything else that we, we promised 336 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:26.049 A:middle L:90% to build a digital library for stanford and that's, 337 00:23:26.059 --> 00:23:27.950 A:middle L:90% that's the number one and then we need to invest 338 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:30.869 A:middle L:90% . There's a following for that. He said, 339 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.869 A:middle L:90% I'm actually worried that in 10 years or 15 years 340 00:23:33.869 --> 00:23:36.650 A:middle L:90% it's gonna be hard to justify the physical library because 341 00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:38.140 A:middle L:90% the president and professor at Stanford already think the library's 342 00:23:38.140 --> 00:23:41.799 A:middle L:90% digital, that Stanford's a technology school. Both of 343 00:23:41.809 --> 00:23:45.450 A:middle L:90% these men have strong technology backgrounds. They don't understand 344 00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:47.500 A:middle L:90% why we need so many buildings and so much storage 345 00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:49.119 A:middle L:90% space. Um now I think that's kind of funny 346 00:23:49.130 --> 00:23:52.059 A:middle L:90% because we have 40 or 50 people working on the 347 00:23:52.069 --> 00:23:56.809 A:middle L:90% digital library, quote unquote and we probably have 300 348 00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:57.980 A:middle L:90% people, 200 to 300 people that are working on 349 00:23:57.990 --> 00:24:02.109 A:middle L:90% kind of the physical or the traditional library. But 350 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:03.529 A:middle L:90% I think that argument has already been made. And 351 00:24:03.529 --> 00:24:07.490 A:middle L:90% I think mentally at Stanford at least that shift has 352 00:24:07.490 --> 00:24:10.730 A:middle L:90% happened. Um I don't think though that we'll ever 353 00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:14.200 A:middle L:90% get um 200 people working in digital preservation. We 354 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:15.450 A:middle L:90% have a preservation group now which is somewhat smaller. 355 00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:18.359 A:middle L:90% They would love to have more resources. I don't 356 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:19.539 A:middle L:90% think the digital preservation group, if we ever got 357 00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:22.599 A:middle L:90% any group by that name would be much bigger. 358 00:24:22.609 --> 00:24:26.440 A:middle L:90% I think digital library operations or adjust operations is going 359 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:27.210 A:middle L:90% to be quite sizable and we see a shift in 360 00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:30.579 A:middle L:90% actually with the roles and capacity of the staff of 361 00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:37.150 A:middle L:90% groups of uranium. It's very organizational specific I suppose 362 00:24:37.569 --> 00:24:41.710 A:middle L:90% in Alabama. I mean you've made great strides in 363 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.190 A:middle L:90% getting your digital preservation sustainable. Well here, here's 364 00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:48.269 A:middle L:90% where perhaps some of my comments might have been controversial 365 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.990 A:middle L:90% . On the one hand, my first reaction to 366 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:59.279 A:middle L:90% the question of, do we think it's possible or 367 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.220 A:middle L:90% likely that um we're going to move part of our 368 00:25:03.220 --> 00:25:10.529 A:middle L:90% operational budget paraphrasing here into the support of digital preservation 369 00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:11.359 A:middle L:90% . My response is, well, we already have 370 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:15.230 A:middle L:90% , I mean now that there is important, I 371 00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:18.759 A:middle L:90% think distinction here that I want to pull out and 372 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:26.549 A:middle L:90% underscore um, in library in, in the library 373 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:33.150 A:middle L:90% culture, I think it's very common to define things 374 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:40.450 A:middle L:90% in terms of departments or units that have specific sets 375 00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:44.589 A:middle L:90% of responsibilities and the people in them have certain tasks 376 00:25:44.589 --> 00:25:48.140 A:middle L:90% and professional judgments that they make about those areas of 377 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:53.109 A:middle L:90% responsibility increasingly, what I'm seeing is that our organizations 378 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.519 A:middle L:90% need to have blurred boundaries and that's nothing to be 379 00:25:56.529 --> 00:26:00.480 A:middle L:90% scared of. And it's simply, that's the way 380 00:26:00.490 --> 00:26:04.589 A:middle L:90% we need to move in order to be more responsive 381 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:11.660 A:middle L:90% more agile organizations. So in my university library, 382 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:17.579 A:middle L:90% um, we don't really have a preservation group now 383 00:26:17.589 --> 00:26:21.420 A:middle L:90% . We have several people including myself who have parts 384 00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:25.950 A:middle L:90% of our responsibilities are related to either the Alabama digital 385 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.829 A:middle L:90% preservation network and our investments, our sweat equity if 386 00:26:30.829 --> 00:26:33.119 A:middle L:90% you will in that environment, we have a couple 387 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:38.779 A:middle L:90% of people in special collections and archives that have responsibilities 388 00:26:38.789 --> 00:26:45.069 A:middle L:90% for more traditional preservation activities. But that's not the 389 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.329 A:middle L:90% only thing that they do. Um, some people 390 00:26:48.329 --> 00:26:52.160 A:middle L:90% might respond to that and say, oh poor Alabama 391 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:53.589 A:middle L:90% . Um, you know, someday, maybe you'll 392 00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:56.920 A:middle L:90% have enough resources to do that. And this is 393 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.630 A:middle L:90% an example of if I had more money, I 394 00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:06.390 A:middle L:90% wouldn't invest more in creating asylum of expertise but I 395 00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:08.769 A:middle L:90% don't invest in is making sure that the people we 396 00:27:08.779 --> 00:27:12.559 A:middle L:90% have have the appropriate training, uh, the appropriate 397 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:15.480 A:middle L:90% understanding. There's an education role. I think it's 398 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.660 A:middle L:90% very important to hear. Um, and I, 399 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:22.769 A:middle L:90% and I'll go as far out on stick here saying 400 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:26.359 A:middle L:90% , you know, another aspect of this education is 401 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:29.920 A:middle L:90% we need to make sure that other administrators in our 402 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.400 A:middle L:90% larger organizations understand things. But I'll go as far 403 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:34.880 A:middle L:90% as to say that it is not up to the 404 00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:40.710 A:middle L:90% financial person to make a decision about where strategic funds 405 00:27:40.710 --> 00:27:45.390 A:middle L:90% are are investing. Those are things that get made 406 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.029 A:middle L:90% . Those are decisions that get made through lots of 407 00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:52.440 A:middle L:90% input from throughout the organization. And financial person is 408 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.859 A:middle L:90% simply the person who makes sure that, you know 409 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.619 A:middle L:90% , monetary obvious get moved into the right thing in 410 00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:07.210 A:middle L:90% the building. Hey, so the german National Library 411 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:11.670 A:middle L:90% undoubtedly has a large budget line dedicated to digital preservation 412 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:15.160 A:middle L:90% . Actually, yes, we do. Um actually 413 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.170 A:middle L:90% we were in the lacking position that the expedition. 414 00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:26.839 A:middle L:90% No, the german expanding our amendment two digital publications 415 00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.390 A:middle L:90% and together with this. Um, should the law 416 00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:37.240 A:middle L:90% , our budget we're friendly new staff positions and the 417 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:41.049 A:middle L:90% budget to build up a digital preservation system. So 418 00:28:41.049 --> 00:28:45.380 A:middle L:90% there is a significant portion of money and staff resources 419 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:56.059 A:middle L:90% dedicated to this task um providing access to the digital 420 00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.049 A:middle L:90% . So these 20 new staff posts, they are 421 00:29:00.049 --> 00:29:07.269 A:middle L:90% actually apartments in the library. The acquisition departed. 422 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:10.519 A:middle L:90% Some of them sit in the reading rooms providing users 423 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:15.430 A:middle L:90% services. Great. Some of those that in the 424 00:29:15.430 --> 00:29:22.430 A:middle L:90% I. T. Department in solution. Um So 425 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:27.160 A:middle L:90% all kinds of barriers. Okay positions and then review 426 00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:37.650 A:middle L:90% I think the financial department to untangle where in the 427 00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:45.269 A:middle L:90% library resource. Right. And that's again strategy reads 428 00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:56.849 A:middle L:90% to build their next decisions on date. Yeah husband 429 00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:06.000 A:middle L:90% the season and some what I'm here and there. 430 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.119 A:middle L:90% And answer my question is that it's actually not that 431 00:30:07.130 --> 00:30:11.769 A:middle L:90% realistic to expect digital preservation to appearance budget line. 432 00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:17.950 A:middle L:90% Um And if you have comments, opinions you want 433 00:30:17.950 --> 00:30:19.180 A:middle L:90% to offer then just put it in the air and 434 00:30:19.190 --> 00:30:27.670 A:middle L:90% come in at any time. It's not. Um 435 00:30:30.339 --> 00:30:33.559 A:middle L:90% So I'm Vicki right Schwartz program at stanford University. 436 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:42.690 A:middle L:90% Um Probably thinking about all the players in the changes 437 00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:48.549 A:middle L:90% following communication and their investment in digital preservation. Ah 438 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:57.680 A:middle L:90% The large publishers now pay money to clocks. Portobello 439 00:30:57.750 --> 00:31:00.559 A:middle L:90% . They are taking care of their own electronic assets 440 00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:07.980 A:middle L:90% and I wonder ah how much so of from from 441 00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:12.670 A:middle L:90% elsevier's point of view they're spending tiny probably what they 442 00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:17.660 A:middle L:90% spend on lunch in a month. Digital reservation. 443 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:25.660 A:middle L:90% Do not write this down. But so they're spending 444 00:31:25.660 --> 00:31:26.640 A:middle L:90% very little and I wonder what their motivation is. 445 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:32.430 A:middle L:90% But I wonder if The four C group are looking 446 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:37.450 A:middle L:90% at the various sectors of the digital scholarly communication chain 447 00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:41.759 A:middle L:90% . Who is spending what and what percentage of it 448 00:31:41.769 --> 00:31:45.569 A:middle L:90% and what percentage of their total budget is getting spent 449 00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:53.430 A:middle L:90% on digital preservation. And um yes. Um is 450 00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:56.619 A:middle L:90% the project looking at that? Um Not specifically in 451 00:31:56.619 --> 00:31:59.400 A:middle L:90% terms of trying to break it down in that way 452 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:04.099 A:middle L:90% but thanks for that. That's it's an interesting idea 453 00:32:04.099 --> 00:32:07.549 A:middle L:90% in terms of relative spend in particular areas. Mhm 454 00:32:10.430 --> 00:32:15.430 A:middle L:90% . And it's so bad to tom's comment about um 455 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.029 A:middle L:90% stanford. We're so so I think what seems to 456 00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:27.279 A:middle L:90% me to be true is that organizations will spend money 457 00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:31.509 A:middle L:90% to preserve content that has this is very cynical and 458 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:37.990 A:middle L:90% I apologize for this but it's worth preserving content that 459 00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:39.759 A:middle L:90% is tied to how money flows in the door. 460 00:32:39.769 --> 00:32:45.670 A:middle L:90% So publishers it's worth spending money on digital preservation because 461 00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:47.799 A:middle L:90% the librarians expect them to or because it really is 462 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:57.569 A:middle L:90% an important asset. And they believe that ah actions 463 00:32:57.569 --> 00:33:00.309 A:middle L:90% that locks clocks particle are taking on this content really 464 00:33:00.309 --> 00:33:04.160 A:middle L:90% will help it preserve, preserve it for the future 465 00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:06.579 A:middle L:90% . And they you know this will help them make 466 00:33:06.589 --> 00:33:09.509 A:middle L:90% more money from it. Or libraries will invest in 467 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:15.150 A:middle L:90% digital preservation because they own materials that they need to 468 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:20.839 A:middle L:90% keep for to satisfy their clientele to get more money 469 00:33:20.849 --> 00:33:24.109 A:middle L:90% from programs. But I wonder if there's a way 470 00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:31.460 A:middle L:90% to um was this Watergate follow the money I mean 471 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:37.470 A:middle L:90% literally take an extremely cynical view the problem just not 472 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:39.660 A:middle L:90% because it's right but just to try to highlight what 473 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:46.480 A:middle L:90% the motivations are and really follow funding change for every 474 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:58.009 A:middle L:90% family. Mhm. Sacramento I think I think there's 475 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:02.079 A:middle L:90% there's a we can move on and start focusing on 476 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:08.969 A:middle L:90% contact. He was talking about um communications chain and 477 00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:13.059 A:middle L:90% what we're actually focusing on within that chain. Um 478 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.110 A:middle L:90% So one of the things that we're talking about enforcing 479 00:34:16.110 --> 00:34:20.519 A:middle L:90% project, one of the sort of terminology that we're 480 00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:22.429 A:middle L:90% trying to use in front of bushes, this notion 481 00:34:22.429 --> 00:34:28.090 A:middle L:90% of digital assets um digital objects thinking of themselves, 482 00:34:28.539 --> 00:34:32.550 A:middle L:90% they're actually visit value. Um So if can we 483 00:34:32.550 --> 00:34:36.599 A:middle L:90% think about these digital objects in terms of digital assets 484 00:34:36.610 --> 00:34:39.530 A:middle L:90% and conversely digital liabilities. If these things aren't of 485 00:34:39.530 --> 00:34:45.190 A:middle L:90% value to us and we can regard those liabilities. 486 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:50.159 A:middle L:90% What does this mean? This change in terminology to 487 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:55.539 A:middle L:90% us and on this ship, this kind of financial 488 00:34:55.539 --> 00:35:01.639 A:middle L:90% language if you like anybody wants that express some opinions 489 00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:08.030 A:middle L:90% on that. Yes you are enforcing project and we're 490 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:10.179 A:middle L:90% trying to take a sort of financial view of things 491 00:35:12.340 --> 00:35:19.989 A:middle L:90% . Thanks. I um answer yes from from the 492 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:27.539 A:middle L:90% forest point of view I see the digital assets and 493 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:36.849 A:middle L:90% Mhm um from a national library, it doesn't help 494 00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:46.889 A:middle L:90% because we have anyway if they are related business opportunities 495 00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:54.909 A:middle L:90% . Um So okay, so I mean this is 496 00:35:54.909 --> 00:35:58.260 A:middle L:90% sort of trying to get to this notion of um 497 00:35:59.139 --> 00:36:00.849 A:middle L:90% value which I think is actually critical in terms of 498 00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:06.269 A:middle L:90% selection and appraisal. We didn't project question project in 499 00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.690 A:middle L:90% just a few years ago trying to sort of get 500 00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:13.400 A:middle L:90% this notion of um was actually to do with Green 501 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:17.130 A:middle L:90% , his digital preservation and and whether going through President 502 00:36:17.130 --> 00:36:21.719 A:middle L:90% of selection and appraisal, trying to reduce the amount 503 00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:23.829 A:middle L:90% of things that we're trying to look out. We 504 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:30.579 A:middle L:90% actually have much financial um him apparent very quickly that 505 00:36:30.590 --> 00:36:34.960 A:middle L:90% the consultants went around asking organizations, is it possible 506 00:36:34.969 --> 00:36:36.849 A:middle L:90% for you to look through your digital assets and sort 507 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.500 A:middle L:90% them out? And um and they were met with 508 00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:45.329 A:middle L:90% sort of bank branch. We haven't got time for 509 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.900 A:middle L:90% doing any of that, which seems to suggest to 510 00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:52.719 A:middle L:90% me that organizations have a tough time trying to decide 511 00:36:52.730 --> 00:37:00.019 A:middle L:90% which which things are valuable on the job um that 512 00:37:00.030 --> 00:37:04.889 A:middle L:90% you're kind of yeah, has triggered something in my 513 00:37:04.889 --> 00:37:08.539 A:middle L:90% mind. Okay. We've certainly had and and my 514 00:37:08.929 --> 00:37:13.869 A:middle L:90% that the University of Alabama's approach to digital preservation at 515 00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:21.780 A:middle L:90% this time has focused almost exclusively our digitization projects for 516 00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:27.849 A:middle L:90% special collections materials. So this there may be entirely 517 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:32.309 A:middle L:90% different issues that come up even if you're working here 518 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:37.280 A:middle L:90% either data sense or published literature and those kinds of 519 00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:42.519 A:middle L:90% things. But on the issue of duplicates, we're 520 00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.550 A:middle L:90% still going through some growing pains in terms of trying 521 00:37:45.550 --> 00:37:52.690 A:middle L:90% to understand where in the workflow process are duplicates actually 522 00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:54.599 A:middle L:90% identified and of course, what is doing, what 523 00:37:54.599 --> 00:38:00.980 A:middle L:90% do you mean? And I'm actually we have some 524 00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:09.449 A:middle L:90% cases where in our archives. Yeah. Um photographs 525 00:38:09.449 --> 00:38:15.630 A:middle L:90% where literally there are duplicates. Um, and in 526 00:38:15.630 --> 00:38:20.900 A:middle L:90% some cases early on in our digitization process, those 527 00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:29.150 A:middle L:90% things were viewed as unique items. And therefore we 528 00:38:29.150 --> 00:38:31.949 A:middle L:90% have since been going back and trying to understand really 529 00:38:32.469 --> 00:38:36.719 A:middle L:90% is that is there, is that what's the incremental 530 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:42.969 A:middle L:90% value of having if something is truly a on more 531 00:38:42.969 --> 00:38:45.699 A:middle L:90% recent things, we try to identify duplicates going into 532 00:38:45.699 --> 00:38:49.849 A:middle L:90% the process. So they don't even get digitized because 533 00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:54.969 A:middle L:90% you know, one of the overarching here here and 534 00:38:54.969 --> 00:38:59.019 A:middle L:90% touched on on this. And I made some comments 535 00:38:59.019 --> 00:39:00.610 A:middle L:90% yesterday about this about I still think we're at a 536 00:39:00.619 --> 00:39:06.539 A:middle L:90% point where we need to define what is digital preservation 537 00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:08.119 A:middle L:90% ? I don't mean that it's some simplistic thing, 538 00:39:08.130 --> 00:39:12.550 A:middle L:90% but I mean, what are we including in tricks 539 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.230 A:middle L:90% ? What are the pieces parts of them? Yeah 540 00:39:16.420 --> 00:39:21.260 A:middle L:90% , it seems to me I haven't necessarily fully thought 541 00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:22.539 A:middle L:90% this out but that there are a lot of pieces 542 00:39:22.539 --> 00:39:25.250 A:middle L:90% of digital preservation and it's going to be very difficult 543 00:39:25.820 --> 00:39:30.460 A:middle L:90% just separate them from other works and duplicates are a 544 00:39:30.469 --> 00:39:32.679 A:middle L:90% good example. If you get to the point where 545 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:37.019 A:middle L:90% you're actually in the preservation workflow, then Yes. 546 00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:42.230 A:middle L:90% There's a digital preservation. How many pieces dealing with 547 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.269 A:middle L:90% . However, if you put that into the workflow 548 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:50.590 A:middle L:90% of civilization? Yes. Is that actually part of 549 00:39:50.590 --> 00:39:52.059 A:middle L:90% digital preservation? Or is that part of this other 550 00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:57.949 A:middle L:90% workflow that actually mitigates an additional cost in digital preservation 551 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.440 A:middle L:90% . Were to do the de duplication. All right 552 00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:19.730 A:middle L:90% . Considering millions. Mm hmm. Maybe I agree 553 00:40:19.730 --> 00:40:22.929 A:middle L:90% with you tom But you can disagree with them. 554 00:40:23.409 --> 00:40:30.440 A:middle L:90% Can I speak with this perspective as an administrator always 555 00:40:30.010 --> 00:40:35.300 A:middle L:90% budgets and and my you know, I was listening 556 00:40:35.300 --> 00:40:37.739 A:middle L:90% to, you know, this there is things around 557 00:40:38.110 --> 00:40:40.829 A:middle L:90% . We asked the new money for digital preservation. 558 00:40:42.170 --> 00:40:45.599 A:middle L:90% Digital preservation. And I would absolutely say no because 559 00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:50.940 A:middle L:90% I don't want to itemize anything in my budget than 560 00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:53.530 A:middle L:90% some higher industry come and say the cherry pick out 561 00:40:54.409 --> 00:40:57.980 A:middle L:90% . I want to, you know, put forward 562 00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:00.389 A:middle L:90% a comprehensive budget that, you know, it has 563 00:41:00.389 --> 00:41:07.679 A:middle L:90% lots of justification knowing that benefit constituency clientele when I 564 00:41:07.690 --> 00:41:13.190 A:middle L:90% get that line item detail on a major on things 565 00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:15.239 A:middle L:90% that we need. We just need to do just 566 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:21.239 A:middle L:90% one whether, you know, administrators are not understand 567 00:41:21.909 --> 00:41:25.329 A:middle L:90% digital conservation of the need for changing lands. And 568 00:41:25.710 --> 00:41:29.019 A:middle L:90% do we really want them to do we want to 569 00:41:29.019 --> 00:41:30.829 A:middle L:90% spend the time to bring them up to speed and 570 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:35.530 A:middle L:90% we want them to trust us. So I would 571 00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:37.170 A:middle L:90% argue, you know, we need to sell them 572 00:41:37.170 --> 00:41:39.829 A:middle L:90% on the benefits and the importance of but not like 573 00:41:40.610 --> 00:41:45.230 A:middle L:90% they fall apart. Things have rest and fun but 574 00:41:45.610 --> 00:41:53.559 A:middle L:90% rather overall importance of cultural memory, institutional memory missions 575 00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:58.900 A:middle L:90% that we're trying to carry forward when they also, 576 00:41:58.909 --> 00:42:01.000 A:middle L:90% you know, it's I kind of was puzzling over 577 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:05.039 A:middle L:90% the question few minutes ago Neil, you know, 578 00:42:05.050 --> 00:42:07.559 A:middle L:90% major examples of success in the international arena. The 579 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:10.230 A:middle L:90% I I P. C I think is a good 580 00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:15.750 A:middle L:90% example of a successful collaboration and one that didn't necessarily 581 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:22.530 A:middle L:90% the FTC. International reservation, it does largely gets 582 00:42:22.530 --> 00:42:29.409 A:middle L:90% focused around national when harvesting and preservation with lots of 583 00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:35.820 A:middle L:90% players aspects never. And most of the I just 584 00:42:35.889 --> 00:42:38.420 A:middle L:90% don't know what Catholics here, we have something representatives 585 00:42:38.650 --> 00:42:44.289 A:middle L:90% of BC. No the audience so I almost speak 586 00:42:44.300 --> 00:42:45.500 A:middle L:90% for them but I know that many of those I 587 00:42:45.500 --> 00:42:49.300 A:middle L:90% . V. C. Efforts were not, you 588 00:42:49.300 --> 00:42:51.730 A:middle L:90% know, they didn't get huge amounts of new fun 589 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:54.280 A:middle L:90% go for it. National Library, I just did 590 00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:58.449 A:middle L:90% it because it was important as part of their overall 591 00:42:58.449 --> 00:43:00.929 A:middle L:90% mission and they understood, you know, without ever 592 00:43:02.900 --> 00:43:05.849 A:middle L:90% thinking that they were going to first go to there 593 00:43:05.860 --> 00:43:07.800 A:middle L:90% before they did anything that they were going to go 594 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.059 A:middle L:90% to their government authorities and ask for new money to 595 00:43:10.070 --> 00:43:13.320 A:middle L:90% do it. It was just hard. Exactly. 596 00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:19.090 A:middle L:90% And I think ultimately that it is just part of 597 00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:20.489 A:middle L:90% what we do, you know, it's not quite 598 00:43:20.489 --> 00:43:22.510 A:middle L:90% as part of the mission of the library in the 599 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:30.119 A:middle L:90% digital age to preserve things, martin welcome those general 600 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:31.429 A:middle L:90% comments about any of the questions that we've covered from 601 00:43:31.429 --> 00:43:35.809 A:middle L:90% anybody. Um my question, I just wanted to 602 00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:42.230 A:middle L:90% make him Alex official and one of the things that 603 00:43:44.190 --> 00:43:54.519 A:middle L:90% language funding for preservation initiatives um that the notion that 604 00:43:55.500 --> 00:44:02.019 A:middle L:90% digital stuff is different, quite understood always people who 605 00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:09.840 A:middle L:90% hold the budget and stuff very often founded, it 606 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:15.159 A:middle L:90% comes down to and that's the language of business, 607 00:44:15.510 --> 00:44:20.789 A:middle L:90% the language of business and policy decisions, this convention 608 00:44:20.789 --> 00:44:24.159 A:middle L:90% institutions by creating this, so on the areas that 609 00:44:24.170 --> 00:44:27.079 A:middle L:90% we've been looking at. And I think it's useful 610 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:32.900 A:middle L:90% language is not the risks and consequences. So you 611 00:44:32.900 --> 00:44:37.489 A:middle L:90% can find the risk it should right. Risk of 612 00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:44.449 A:middle L:90% loss, put a consequence against loss. Also the 613 00:44:44.449 --> 00:44:50.519 A:middle L:90% visual asset. That's great. We get those hold 614 00:44:50.530 --> 00:44:53.159 A:middle L:90% budgets and it becomes, there's also one of the 615 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:59.239 A:middle L:90% comments on which is the insurance industry understands this. 616 00:44:59.269 --> 00:45:01.530 A:middle L:90% Insurance has been around a long time, knows what 617 00:45:01.539 --> 00:45:06.809 A:middle L:90% the risks of things going wrong. And we as 618 00:45:06.820 --> 00:45:21.809 A:middle L:90% consumers insurance watching, do it consequences loss. Um 619 00:45:22.389 --> 00:45:23.409 A:middle L:90% , that might be a good model for us to 620 00:45:23.420 --> 00:45:27.909 A:middle L:90% look at. This is insurance. This is not 621 00:45:28.989 --> 00:45:34.610 A:middle L:90% something different. We need to look at consequences. 622 00:45:35.789 --> 00:45:37.550 A:middle L:90% Thanks. Thanks very much for that. Let me 623 00:45:37.550 --> 00:45:40.409 A:middle L:90% just have a comment on mike's comment there. Um 624 00:45:40.420 --> 00:45:44.099 A:middle L:90% , that's actually very pragmatic way. That's how we 625 00:45:44.110 --> 00:45:47.000 A:middle L:90% have marketed in peanut, the elephant digital preservation homework 626 00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:52.289 A:middle L:90% um, is not so much on this notion of 627 00:45:52.300 --> 00:45:53.820 A:middle L:90% , wouldn't it be great if we would preserve these 628 00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:57.190 A:middle L:90% cultural assets? I mean, that's part of the 629 00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.010 A:middle L:90% message. Another part of it is okay if you've 630 00:46:00.010 --> 00:46:04.179 A:middle L:90% invested some effort, you've already decided X, y 631 00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:07.929 A:middle L:90% and Z are worthwhile. Worthwhile enough that I'm going 632 00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:13.159 A:middle L:90% to digitize. Don't you want to then make some 633 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:16.199 A:middle L:90% investment and assure you don't won't have to go back 634 00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:22.800 A:middle L:90% digitize them. So there's a very pragmatic workflow based 635 00:46:22.579 --> 00:46:30.380 A:middle L:90% understand of that process. Um, so this, 636 00:46:30.389 --> 00:46:32.510 A:middle L:90% this um, this is a question of what, 637 00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:36.289 A:middle L:90% what you say first or where the emphasis lies in 638 00:46:36.289 --> 00:46:38.809 A:middle L:90% there because to your point about it might be a 639 00:46:38.809 --> 00:46:42.889 A:middle L:90% better idea to talk about risk and consequences of loss 640 00:46:42.889 --> 00:46:46.039 A:middle L:90% , but facts that depend on a man understood emotional 641 00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:50.159 A:middle L:90% value in the first place. And so this notion 642 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.050 A:middle L:90% of a return on investment that this is financial speak 643 00:46:52.050 --> 00:46:57.210 A:middle L:90% again. And there's, there's no question and how 644 00:46:57.219 --> 00:47:00.030 A:middle L:90% far down this financial speak terminology line we want to 645 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:06.070 A:middle L:90% go with digital preservation, but some put it to 646 00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:09.000 A:middle L:90% the panel and the audience is this notion of return 647 00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:16.500 A:middle L:90% on investment worth. I think it's too difficult. 648 00:47:16.510 --> 00:47:20.150 A:middle L:90% Yes and no. So it's a great library answer 649 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.730 A:middle L:90% . Yes. It depends. I mean, I 650 00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:23.760 A:middle L:90% think yes, where you can do it and then 651 00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:27.389 A:middle L:90% no. For areas where you're preserving things for the 652 00:47:27.389 --> 00:47:29.599 A:middle L:90% next generation of scholars, part of our mission. 653 00:47:29.610 --> 00:47:32.710 A:middle L:90% It's a mission based preservation is a mission based activity 654 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.880 A:middle L:90% . And to define that as return on investment. 655 00:47:35.889 --> 00:47:37.949 A:middle L:90% Well, we've been, I've been in the library 656 00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:40.690 A:middle L:90% for 10 years. This comes up frequently. I've 657 00:47:40.690 --> 00:47:43.710 A:middle L:90% still never seen a good answer. So maybe we'll 658 00:47:43.710 --> 00:47:45.969 A:middle L:90% get smarter or someone will articulate it better. But 659 00:47:45.980 --> 00:47:49.969 A:middle L:90% I, I think that's fundamental challenging. I do 660 00:47:49.969 --> 00:47:52.190 A:middle L:90% think Vicky's I think Vicky's point is right in terms 661 00:47:52.190 --> 00:47:54.579 A:middle L:90% of if you can quantify, we spent next to 662 00:47:54.590 --> 00:47:58.150 A:middle L:90% digitize this, we spend wide to license it or 663 00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.500 A:middle L:90% we spend ze uh, to produce it in the 664 00:48:00.510 --> 00:48:05.380 A:middle L:90% first powerful. I know there was a uh like 665 00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:07.940 A:middle L:90% organization in the bay area that collects a lot of 666 00:48:07.940 --> 00:48:12.590 A:middle L:90% legacy software. Um They're institute and they've been pushing 667 00:48:12.590 --> 00:48:15.809 A:middle L:90% to get a digital locals digital preservation system in because 668 00:48:15.820 --> 00:48:19.099 A:middle L:90% this software is interesting cultural artifacts by themselves. I 669 00:48:19.110 --> 00:48:20.889 A:middle L:90% haven't been able to get the funding. This is 670 00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:22.309 A:middle L:90% a group that also has a communications department which produces 671 00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:27.480 A:middle L:90% really expensive videos um and which are really quite big 672 00:48:27.489 --> 00:48:30.389 A:middle L:90% and administration said those are expensive. We should make 673 00:48:30.389 --> 00:48:31.190 A:middle L:90% sure that we still have those so we can remixed 674 00:48:31.190 --> 00:48:34.860 A:middle L:90% and remastered and distribute them in the future. Um 675 00:48:34.869 --> 00:48:37.320 A:middle L:90% They bought a digital asset management system that corporate enterprise 676 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:39.650 A:middle L:90% digital asset management for media management. And then they 677 00:48:39.659 --> 00:48:43.340 A:middle L:90% just suck the software in there. So I do 678 00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:45.760 A:middle L:90% think there's, they couldn't make the case based on 679 00:48:45.769 --> 00:48:47.449 A:middle L:90% cultural uh cultural heritage or values in other words, 680 00:48:47.449 --> 00:48:51.320 A:middle L:90% their mission. They could do it because there was 681 00:48:51.329 --> 00:48:52.789 A:middle L:90% the risk of loss was something that resonated with the 682 00:48:52.789 --> 00:48:55.349 A:middle L:90% administration. And I know actually, I think there 683 00:48:55.349 --> 00:48:58.030 A:middle L:90% might be something of a trend in that in north 684 00:48:58.030 --> 00:49:00.480 A:middle L:90% America. At least I know of at least half 685 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:06.150 A:middle L:90% a dozen institutions where the upper administration says we need 686 00:49:06.150 --> 00:49:08.300 A:middle L:90% to do something about our asset management systems. Uh 687 00:49:08.309 --> 00:49:12.489 A:middle L:90% Enterprise wide. So our videos from university videos are 688 00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:15.630 A:middle L:90% images from the athletics department. The things that are 689 00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:15.719 A:middle L:90% in the library of the things that are in the 690 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.329 A:middle L:90% music department figure out what we're gonna do and we're 691 00:49:19.329 --> 00:49:22.699 A:middle L:90% only gonna have one system, not for. So 692 00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:30.860 A:middle L:90% coming back, sorry, I'm university. Um I 693 00:49:30.869 --> 00:49:32.610 A:middle L:90% want to walk this back just a little bit because 694 00:49:32.610 --> 00:49:36.960 A:middle L:90% I'm in an institution that The scope of this group 695 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.599 A:middle L:90% was about 10 to 15 years. This is this 696 00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.530 A:middle L:90% is just category, that's that's where we are infrastructural 697 00:49:44.170 --> 00:49:46.340 A:middle L:90% . Um we have a long legacy of pilot projects 698 00:49:46.349 --> 00:49:50.699 A:middle L:90% on soft funding that don't have any coherence to them 699 00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:53.380 A:middle L:90% . Yeah. Are scattered across our campus. On 700 00:49:53.389 --> 00:49:57.860 A:middle L:90% the left hand, the other advantages are doing um 701 00:49:57.869 --> 00:50:00.639 A:middle L:90% we're at the point now where we're just beginning to 702 00:50:00.650 --> 00:50:04.900 A:middle L:90% make an argument for actual comprehensive on our campus. 703 00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:07.440 A:middle L:90% Use the effort, the new Ceo we have a 704 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:12.849 A:middle L:90% new president. We're trying to figure out how to 705 00:50:12.860 --> 00:50:16.239 A:middle L:90% take advantage of that leadership. At the same time 706 00:50:16.250 --> 00:50:20.900 A:middle L:90% we have the staffing legacy of large percentage of people 707 00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:23.079 A:middle L:90% that currently in the but that's not my job category 708 00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:25.900 A:middle L:90% because their paper based, that's what they do and 709 00:50:25.900 --> 00:50:29.960 A:middle L:90% when you explain that this digital stuff is also their 710 00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:34.190 A:middle L:90% problem. They kind that are you kidding? Um 711 00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.710 A:middle L:90% so we're starting with this between a rock and a 712 00:50:36.710 --> 00:50:39.889 A:middle L:90% hard place because we have a percentage of of staff 713 00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:45.650 A:middle L:90% with professional impaired professionals that are not to speak technically 714 00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:49.070 A:middle L:90% by any stretch of the imagination and infrastructure on our 715 00:50:49.070 --> 00:50:52.420 A:middle L:90% campus campuses because I'm part of it grand group that's 716 00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:54.280 A:middle L:90% still being in this for smaller less resource places. 717 00:50:54.289 --> 00:50:58.090 A:middle L:90% Um our infrastructure is also lacking. We have one 718 00:50:58.090 --> 00:51:00.679 A:middle L:90% member of our grand group that's still basically on dialogue 719 00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:01.610 A:middle L:90% . Like they don't have a T one line for 720 00:51:01.610 --> 00:51:05.489 A:middle L:90% their campus. It's, you know, the best 721 00:51:05.489 --> 00:51:07.210 A:middle L:90% way to get digital assets from them to us is 722 00:51:07.210 --> 00:51:10.159 A:middle L:90% for them to mail us a hard time. That's 723 00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:13.610 A:middle L:90% the level of infrastructure we're talking about in some cases 724 00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:17.019 A:middle L:90% . So how do we move from that to even 725 00:51:17.030 --> 00:51:22.570 A:middle L:90% approaching something comprehensive and cohesive, had an opportunity to 726 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:28.690 A:middle L:90% further ahead and started making these arguments. Yeah, 727 00:51:28.699 --> 00:51:35.619 A:middle L:90% let me offer a couple, a couple of comments 728 00:51:35.630 --> 00:51:39.000 A:middle L:90% related directly to that. Um first of all, 729 00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:44.300 A:middle L:90% I think we need to step back from this notion 730 00:51:44.309 --> 00:51:51.340 A:middle L:90% of comprehensive. I understand your situation about it doesn't 731 00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:54.269 A:middle L:90% sound like they're necessarily dealing just with a resource issue 732 00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:58.489 A:middle L:90% that you're talking about, dealing with the installed base 733 00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:04.139 A:middle L:90% and infrastructural issues from years past. And that's not 734 00:52:04.139 --> 00:52:06.880 A:middle L:90% uncommon. We all have some aspect of that, 735 00:52:07.150 --> 00:52:15.630 A:middle L:90% but by viewing things as if I need to have 736 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:21.210 A:middle L:90% a comprehensive approach, I'm not saying I have philosophically 737 00:52:21.210 --> 00:52:23.130 A:middle L:90% , I'm against what that might mean. I'm saying 738 00:52:23.130 --> 00:52:28.500 A:middle L:90% sometimes that becomes a stumbling block for making the pragmatic 739 00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:31.039 A:middle L:90% steps forward that we can make. I don't need 740 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:36.110 A:middle L:90% to know, I really don't need to Where I'm 741 00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:37.349 A:middle L:90% going to be in 50 years, but I know 742 00:52:37.349 --> 00:52:42.559 A:middle L:90% where I'm gonna be 50 years, but uh huh 743 00:52:43.050 --> 00:52:44.320 A:middle L:90% , You know, I really don't need to know 744 00:52:44.329 --> 00:52:46.800 A:middle L:90% where we're going to be as an organization for us 745 00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:50.840 A:middle L:90% as a global initiative are gonna be in 50 years 746 00:52:50.849 --> 00:52:52.949 A:middle L:90% in order for me to say, tomorrow, I 747 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:57.369 A:middle L:90% need to do this. And then next week I'm 748 00:52:57.369 --> 00:53:00.230 A:middle L:90% going to follow that this and this and this and 749 00:53:00.230 --> 00:53:01.690 A:middle L:90% move forward in that fashion. I'd also like to 750 00:53:01.690 --> 00:53:05.570 A:middle L:90% come back and I disagree with tom simply because I 751 00:53:05.570 --> 00:53:08.179 A:middle L:90% don't think we've had enough disagreement here. Mm hmm 752 00:53:08.550 --> 00:53:10.780 A:middle L:90% . I would challenge all of us to be very 753 00:53:10.789 --> 00:53:14.380 A:middle L:90% careful and you can kind of think of this as 754 00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:20.480 A:middle L:90% watching our assumptions are unspoken, unacknowledged assumptions in our 755 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:25.019 A:middle L:90% thinking about one solution, Whether that one solution is 756 00:53:25.019 --> 00:53:30.170 A:middle L:90% a particular technology towards a particular procedure or process or 757 00:53:30.170 --> 00:53:34.920 A:middle L:90% in a particular way. I was thinking that we 758 00:53:34.929 --> 00:53:39.239 A:middle L:90% really need to step back from a lot of the 759 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:45.070 A:middle L:90% issues we're talking and make sure that anything that looks 760 00:53:45.070 --> 00:53:47.920 A:middle L:90% like, well this is naturally the decision of the 761 00:53:47.929 --> 00:53:52.940 A:middle L:90% answer. Step back from that and make sure what's 762 00:53:52.940 --> 00:53:55.269 A:middle L:90% the, what's pushing me in that direction somewhere. 763 00:53:55.949 --> 00:53:59.860 A:middle L:90% The other thing of her pragmatic level that, and 764 00:53:59.860 --> 00:54:02.559 A:middle L:90% I spent a lot of time trying probably mostly unsuccessful 765 00:54:04.340 --> 00:54:07.510 A:middle L:90% um, in my home institution of helping people to 766 00:54:07.510 --> 00:54:13.349 A:middle L:90% understand that there was a big distinction between an asset 767 00:54:13.349 --> 00:54:17.360 A:middle L:90% management system and digital preservation, an asset management system 768 00:54:17.369 --> 00:54:22.929 A:middle L:90% . By definition, it's a simple what you do 769 00:54:22.929 --> 00:54:27.130 A:middle L:90% with the back end could be digital preservation, but 770 00:54:27.139 --> 00:54:32.980 A:middle L:90% just because you have your assets organized doesn't necessarily mean 771 00:54:32.989 --> 00:54:36.829 A:middle L:90% they're preserved. And I would argue in my experience 772 00:54:36.829 --> 00:54:40.900 A:middle L:90% dealing with three very large public institutions in the United 773 00:54:40.900 --> 00:54:46.150 A:middle L:90% States that when people start talking particularly people from the 774 00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:52.969 A:middle L:90% financial side of the house or from purchasing or units 775 00:54:52.969 --> 00:54:57.639 A:middle L:90% that have a lot of sort of admissions have a 776 00:54:57.639 --> 00:55:00.869 A:middle L:90% lot of paper to deal with information to kind of 777 00:55:00.869 --> 00:55:01.449 A:middle L:90% manage and they want to track and be able to 778 00:55:01.449 --> 00:55:06.869 A:middle L:90% understand what relates to what they're very interested in a 779 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:13.969 A:middle L:90% digital asset management system because it helps them today do 780 00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:16.480 A:middle L:90% their work and make sense and tracking and it's important 781 00:55:16.489 --> 00:55:20.710 A:middle L:90% . There's nothing nothing wrong with that. But they 782 00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:24.559 A:middle L:90% may actually not be interested in longer term preservation. 783 00:55:24.940 --> 00:55:29.449 A:middle L:90% In some cases they might be in other cases they 784 00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:30.670 A:middle L:90% might not know that they are or that they should 785 00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:34.969 A:middle L:90% . And and in some cases they simply honor because 786 00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:37.860 A:middle L:90% all they're dealing with is with today's information. They 787 00:55:37.860 --> 00:55:40.659 A:middle L:90% couldn't care less About 10 years to 15 years ago 788 00:55:42.670 --> 00:55:47.980 A:middle L:90% . So I think arguing there for some focus on 789 00:55:47.989 --> 00:55:51.010 A:middle L:90% the problem, what the problem actually is and what 790 00:55:51.019 --> 00:55:52.369 A:middle L:90% time scales that you need to solve over. We 791 00:55:52.369 --> 00:55:57.920 A:middle L:90% should respect your point back capability within an organization and 792 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:00.670 A:middle L:90% you know, what's achievable. I think that's a 793 00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:02.059 A:middle L:90% great intervention. Thank you very much for getting us 794 00:56:02.059 --> 00:56:06.460 A:middle L:90% focused on on what organizations can do what they can 795 00:56:06.460 --> 00:56:10.610 A:middle L:90% do what they can do. You've got, you've 796 00:56:10.610 --> 00:56:19.480 A:middle L:90% got to say something right? Yes. My name 797 00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:23.699 A:middle L:90% is ruined from party Barson excellence. I will try 798 00:56:23.699 --> 00:56:27.900 A:middle L:90% to bring another point of view with respect to your 799 00:56:27.900 --> 00:56:30.960 A:middle L:90% question, Well we're done investing. Yes or no 800 00:56:31.329 --> 00:56:37.289 A:middle L:90% . And we my answer. Yes. On top 801 00:56:37.300 --> 00:56:43.119 A:middle L:90% of all in kind of other considerations. Let's see 802 00:56:43.400 --> 00:56:46.699 A:middle L:90% early this morning somebody the person who started talk about 803 00:56:46.710 --> 00:56:51.800 A:middle L:90% neglected communities, the storage, the storage, right 804 00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:53.780 A:middle L:90% ? It's not only the administrators, it's all your 805 00:56:53.780 --> 00:56:59.340 A:middle L:90% suppliers, your suppliers talk about business case. Simeone 806 00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:00.980 A:middle L:90% was talking about the business case, 17 was talking 807 00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:07.130 A:middle L:90% about assets and liabilities. So perhaps we are not 808 00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:08.809 A:middle L:90% comfortable. It's not the kind of language we would 809 00:57:08.809 --> 00:57:15.610 A:middle L:90% love to speak. I'm afraid that we have any 810 00:57:15.610 --> 00:57:19.969 A:middle L:90% choice about this. We need that language about returning 811 00:57:19.969 --> 00:57:22.940 A:middle L:90% investment for example, to use the value that we 812 00:57:22.940 --> 00:57:29.460 A:middle L:90% get out of preserving assets to help us to fund 813 00:57:29.469 --> 00:57:34.050 A:middle L:90% to finance the preservation of liabilities and to reduce liability 814 00:57:35.130 --> 00:57:37.960 A:middle L:90% . Let's see you started with the strategic approach. 815 00:57:37.969 --> 00:57:42.019 A:middle L:90% Let's see recurrence. Let's move is part of that 816 00:57:42.019 --> 00:57:46.050 A:middle L:90% strategic approach that goes on top of all when we 817 00:57:46.059 --> 00:57:51.650 A:middle L:90% talk about digital preservation, digital preservation is not an 818 00:57:51.659 --> 00:57:53.250 A:middle L:90% end in itself. And I think that everybody's scared 819 00:57:53.250 --> 00:57:57.739 A:middle L:90% about this. So getting into work jobs, all 820 00:57:57.739 --> 00:58:00.750 A:middle L:90% this kind of stuff but it's part of our day 821 00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:05.039 A:middle L:90% patient. And let's see, let's face it, 822 00:58:06.019 --> 00:58:10.360 A:middle L:90% Digital reality digital code is here to stay, it's 823 00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:13.460 A:middle L:90% not going to dimension next year. We will have 824 00:58:13.469 --> 00:58:17.809 A:middle L:90% more reserved so we better get more resources if we 825 00:58:17.809 --> 00:58:20.809 A:middle L:90% have no money will preserve more. It's not a 826 00:58:20.820 --> 00:58:24.190 A:middle L:90% choice. This is for the choice. We will 827 00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:28.369 A:middle L:90% have even to spend much more money led by the 828 00:58:28.369 --> 00:58:31.619 A:middle L:90% way what to preserve because okay, so I mean 829 00:58:31.630 --> 00:58:36.110 A:middle L:90% you have to preserve everything that you're getting close to 830 00:58:36.110 --> 00:58:38.960 A:middle L:90% humanity. But there is a lot of things that 831 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:42.019 A:middle L:90% are not even in the mandate that we have to 832 00:58:42.030 --> 00:58:45.449 A:middle L:90% make choices. So yes sir. As I said 833 00:58:45.820 --> 00:58:49.449 A:middle L:90% , the answer is yes. And we have the 834 00:58:49.449 --> 00:58:52.510 A:middle L:90% guys that are comfortable speaking with that language and the 835 00:58:52.510 --> 00:58:55.130 A:middle L:90% others take care of the important things. Okay, 836 00:58:55.139 --> 00:58:59.250 A:middle L:90% that's a vote for using original investment. Okay, 837 00:58:59.250 --> 00:59:12.019 A:middle L:90% so let's go questions back first. The question of 838 00:59:12.019 --> 00:59:15.699 A:middle L:90% course, in the to rent an opinion, anything 839 00:59:15.699 --> 00:59:19.260 A:middle L:90% you like. I'm jeremy york from a hockey trust 840 00:59:19.269 --> 00:59:22.150 A:middle L:90% . It seems to me that the the kind of 841 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:24.380 A:middle L:90% focus of the question of return on investment. It 842 00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:28.460 A:middle L:90% just in my experience that there's no question in higher 843 00:59:28.460 --> 00:59:31.210 A:middle L:90% education about the value of preserving the assets and the 844 00:59:31.210 --> 00:59:34.449 A:middle L:90% value of scholarship. That doesn't seem to be the 845 00:59:34.460 --> 00:59:37.300 A:middle L:90% question to anyone. The question seems to be why 846 00:59:37.300 --> 00:59:38.570 A:middle L:90% it costs so much when you can go to the 847 00:59:38.579 --> 00:59:42.630 A:middle L:90% best buy, you can buy however many terabytes. 848 00:59:42.630 --> 00:59:44.650 A:middle L:90% Why can't we just throw the stuff on the amazon 849 00:59:45.320 --> 00:59:45.829 A:middle L:90% ? And I think that's where the question, I 850 00:59:45.829 --> 00:59:47.789 A:middle L:90% think it's right, it's right for them to do 851 00:59:47.789 --> 00:59:51.079 A:middle L:90% that. Why does it cost so much? Why 852 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:52.949 A:middle L:90% do we need to set up this infrastructure? And 853 00:59:52.949 --> 00:59:54.360 A:middle L:90% I think that's really where the question of efficiency and 854 00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:58.039 A:middle L:90% collaboration comes in, how can we do this in 855 00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:00.099 A:middle L:90% a way that's more efficient so that people don't say 856 01:00:00.099 --> 01:00:01.369 A:middle L:90% well why why don't we just rely on google and 857 01:00:01.369 --> 01:00:04.340 A:middle L:90% have all the content? They're doing all this. 858 01:00:04.349 --> 01:00:06.139 A:middle L:90% Why why do we need to do it at all 859 01:00:06.909 --> 01:00:08.130 A:middle L:90% ? Um So I think really it's about that efficiency 860 01:00:08.130 --> 01:00:13.619 A:middle L:90% and cost really important. Thank you very much. 861 01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:15.429 A:middle L:90% Does it cost so much? One more question. 862 01:00:15.909 --> 01:00:24.550 A:middle L:90% Mhm. I don't like that stuff and then I 863 01:00:24.730 --> 01:00:30.969 A:middle L:90% don't think so much awesome. A little bit into 864 01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:36.730 A:middle L:90% that discussion. David probably in the room and counting 865 01:00:36.730 --> 01:00:37.750 A:middle L:90% on that as well. But but tossing it into 866 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:45.079 A:middle L:90% amazon necessarily not because I have a long term story 867 01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:51.869 A:middle L:90% in your life. Yeah. Beautiful calculation in terms 868 01:00:51.869 --> 01:01:00.050 A:middle L:90% of some portions. So I wanted to everything's all 869 01:01:00.050 --> 01:01:04.219 A:middle L:90% right. So what is about sort of extending? 870 01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:08.940 A:middle L:90% Sure. Yeah. Anyone. Mhm. To reinforce 871 01:01:10.110 --> 01:01:15.650 A:middle L:90% what any of us who are spending money to ensure 872 01:01:15.650 --> 01:01:21.920 A:middle L:90% that Yeah, securely stored content for years. Right 873 01:01:22.130 --> 01:01:24.739 A:middle L:90% . We're spending on this. Whether it's useful for 874 01:01:24.739 --> 01:01:30.090 A:middle L:90% us argument a separate line lighting, it's a different 875 01:01:30.090 --> 01:01:38.710 A:middle L:90% story. Internal legend. Sorry if there are reasons 876 01:01:38.710 --> 01:01:43.000 A:middle L:90% for them. He is a whole and say how 877 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:47.019 A:middle L:90% much are organizations have despised content. Also an interesting 878 01:01:47.030 --> 01:01:52.860 A:middle L:90% discussion but it's not that I think all of us 879 01:01:52.860 --> 01:02:04.460 A:middle L:90% were restoring the first the second one is I have 880 01:02:04.460 --> 01:02:10.409 A:middle L:90% a sometimes we think digital in many ways but there 881 01:02:10.409 --> 01:02:15.340 A:middle L:90% are also ways. So you think about the preservation 882 01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:21.519 A:middle L:90% conservation animal and material. The same properties. Three 883 01:02:22.699 --> 01:02:23.500 A:middle L:90% three good examples. I've got a score of my 884 01:02:23.510 --> 01:02:27.860 A:middle L:90% treatment. Okay. So I can't just leave them 885 01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:30.159 A:middle L:90% on the shelf actually after one. They're more diversity 886 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.420 A:middle L:90% of flames and burning light. Okay. And then 887 01:02:35.420 --> 01:02:38.440 A:middle L:90% your preservation issues are all gone. Thanks. Thanks 888 01:02:38.449 --> 01:02:43.519 A:middle L:90% . And especially when you have multiple sites. Um 889 01:02:43.530 --> 01:02:45.090 A:middle L:90% , so we have to take active steps to preserve 890 01:02:45.099 --> 01:02:47.929 A:middle L:90% that material and put it into it. Working by 891 01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.829 A:middle L:90% other examples of audio tapes. As many of the 892 01:02:51.829 --> 01:02:57.070 A:middle L:90% same properties. Additional tapes. One material, that's 893 01:02:57.340 --> 01:03:01.730 A:middle L:90% another good example. It's important. Algy times longer 894 01:03:01.730 --> 01:03:06.429 A:middle L:90% than the design. Sure. The active step. 895 01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:10.289 A:middle L:90% So the physical material. Well, it's truly stick 896 01:03:10.289 --> 01:03:14.230 A:middle L:90% it on the shelf for quite a while. Great 897 01:03:14.699 --> 01:03:22.510 A:middle L:90% isn't as different initial to me at the british library 898 01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:36.420 A:middle L:90% for easter. Somewhere too together with here. Really 899 01:03:37.099 --> 01:03:47.820 A:middle L:90% sure person. The last thing I wanted to just 900 01:03:50.099 --> 01:04:01.550 A:middle L:90% why walter white regiments. Congress 142, like for 901 01:04:01.550 --> 01:04:06.719 A:middle L:90% the rams. You get the stronger your assumptions and 902 01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:19.449 A:middle L:90% yes. Mm hmm. Material. The british library 903 01:04:19.460 --> 01:04:21.920 A:middle L:90% often lagged by a couple of decades. I'm starting 904 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:26.809 A:middle L:90% to see lots and lots of users. Mm hmm 905 01:04:28.590 --> 01:04:34.949 A:middle L:90% levels have been foreseen nine years ago. Kind of 906 01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:40.099 A:middle L:90% hard to predict. We should. I'm sure you 907 01:04:40.099 --> 01:04:48.420 A:middle L:90% understand forms that moral right? Why? That's it 908 01:04:49.989 --> 01:04:54.590 A:middle L:90% . They have a really crisp on the line and 909 01:04:54.599 --> 01:05:03.150 A:middle L:90% we've seen fast, very fear. Commercial arguments about 910 01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:08.460 A:middle L:90% life. I want to make a certain I love 911 01:05:08.460 --> 01:05:15.199 A:middle L:90% you college today. I think there's a time frames 912 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:21.820 A:middle L:90% that are make that kind of clear. No are 913 01:05:21.829 --> 01:05:32.840 A:middle L:90% always the ones. Okay, let me just one 914 01:05:32.840 --> 01:05:35.599 A:middle L:90% comment to that illustrates something else that I've been thinking 915 01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:39.710 A:middle L:90% about. This conversation is going and that is that 916 01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:43.389 A:middle L:90% we need to stop thinking about single arguments. We 917 01:05:43.389 --> 01:05:45.320 A:middle L:90% didn't have language to talk about a variety of different 918 01:05:45.329 --> 01:05:48.650 A:middle L:90% perspectives. Not only you know, 50,000 ft level 919 01:05:48.650 --> 01:05:55.000 A:middle L:90% of conversation with the higher ups but also looking at 920 01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.280 A:middle L:90% what the audience is for and what the time the 921 01:05:58.289 --> 01:06:00.840 A:middle L:90% temporal framework is. In terms of right now, 922 01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:05.519 A:middle L:90% my argument might be primarily based in caramelized what if 923 01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:09.079 A:middle L:90% I'm talking to a different audience for it's a different 924 01:06:09.090 --> 01:06:11.969 A:middle L:90% time. I'm not talking about a different kind of 925 01:06:11.969 --> 01:06:15.269 A:middle L:90% argument. So we need to be more fluent in 926 01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:18.849 A:middle L:90% multiple languages as it were to make these arguments. 927 01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:21.710 A:middle L:90% Uh huh That's a very good point. Yeah. 928 01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:25.679 A:middle L:90% Mhm We've only got a few minutes left I'm afraid 929 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:29.050 A:middle L:90% we probably there was one more kind of concept if 930 01:06:29.050 --> 01:06:34.539 A:middle L:90% you like. Just stronger. Yes, this is 931 01:06:34.539 --> 01:06:38.230 A:middle L:90% a bit from the background of our beginning, our 932 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:42.199 A:middle L:90% powers and on sustainability. And I want to pick 933 01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:44.440 A:middle L:90% up some statements that we have on the one hand 934 01:06:44.449 --> 01:06:46.809 A:middle L:90% from Sabine which said it's very hard to untangle where 935 01:06:46.809 --> 01:06:50.460 A:middle L:90% in the library the costs appear to support the preservation 936 01:06:50.469 --> 01:06:55.110 A:middle L:90% then in addition you said and it's very hard to 937 01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:59.710 A:middle L:90% identify generally within such workflows where they appear. I 938 01:06:59.710 --> 01:07:03.730 A:middle L:90% think this is also a bit about externalization cost because 939 01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:09.789 A:middle L:90% when it ends up in the library, the library 940 01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.889 A:middle L:90% has to do a lot of repairs to some content 941 01:07:12.900 --> 01:07:16.690 A:middle L:90% which needs to be preserved simply because the producers did 942 01:07:16.690 --> 01:07:20.940 A:middle L:90% not have the discipline to do it properly from the 943 01:07:20.940 --> 01:07:24.099 A:middle L:90% start. So I want to give them another tree 944 01:07:24.579 --> 01:07:27.579 A:middle L:90% . Just imagine that the library would receive a paper 945 01:07:27.579 --> 01:07:30.170 A:middle L:90% without the awesome or without data, data about the 946 01:07:30.170 --> 01:07:34.320 A:middle L:90% affiliation or about the publisher about cross cross references. 947 01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:39.670 A:middle L:90% Nobody would accept it because it's simply managed by our 948 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:45.059 A:middle L:90% culture of future dividing and establishing. So that means 949 01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:46.679 A:middle L:90% the library doesn't have to repair it when it gets 950 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:49.760 A:middle L:90% it. As a deposit object doesn't have to create 951 01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:54.360 A:middle L:90% a classification because it already exists in the digital preservation 952 01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:57.659 A:middle L:90% were in a totally different situation. All the costs 953 01:07:57.670 --> 01:08:00.550 A:middle L:90% which should have been spent during the production process by 954 01:08:00.550 --> 01:08:04.000 A:middle L:90% the scientific writers and all those who produce the content 955 01:08:04.010 --> 01:08:08.150 A:middle L:90% they have externalized from this process into the library or 956 01:08:08.150 --> 01:08:12.050 A:middle L:90% whoever becomes in the end responsible for taking care of 957 01:08:12.050 --> 01:08:15.519 A:middle L:90% the preservation. Which means that actually we really have 958 01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:18.800 A:middle L:90% to change our culture in scientific writing and scientific production 959 01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:21.220 A:middle L:90% of material or any kind of material that we want 960 01:08:21.220 --> 01:08:26.550 A:middle L:90% to preserve because you can no longer accept that you're 961 01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.460 A:middle L:90% working in such a sloppy way. Just putting the 962 01:08:29.470 --> 01:08:31.560 A:middle L:90% bill in the person or the institution which is the 963 01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:33.869 A:middle L:90% last one in the value chain. I think that's 964 01:08:33.869 --> 01:08:38.380 A:middle L:90% really a big problem where we are talking about business 965 01:08:38.380 --> 01:08:42.000 A:middle L:90% models which are driven by funding another opportunities of, 966 01:08:42.069 --> 01:08:44.420 A:middle L:90% because if you don't drive the business model by funding 967 01:08:44.420 --> 01:08:46.670 A:middle L:90% , but I reuse and really identify what is the 968 01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:49.189 A:middle L:90% value of it, but that's another discussion I think 969 01:08:49.770 --> 01:08:51.829 A:middle L:90% . Thank you very much for that and there's lots 970 01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:55.180 A:middle L:90% of discussion that we could have, we could go 971 01:08:55.180 --> 01:08:58.909 A:middle L:90% on for and so I think I actually wanted to 972 01:08:58.909 --> 01:09:01.619 A:middle L:90% come back to the point of if an organization is 973 01:09:01.689 --> 01:09:05.470 A:middle L:90% at the stage of to do this kind of work 974 01:09:05.470 --> 01:09:06.880 A:middle L:90% they want to do and how they hand it off 975 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:11.739 A:middle L:90% to others or offering services to others. We know 976 01:09:11.739 --> 01:09:14.640 A:middle L:90% more about the cost and presumably we have more effectively 977 01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:19.750 A:middle L:90% office services to others discussions go, it's gone half 978 01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:24.100 A:middle L:90% past. I saw one last word from each analyst 979 01:09:24.569 --> 01:09:28.250 A:middle L:90% um, why does it cost so much? Can 980 01:09:28.250 --> 01:09:30.050 A:middle L:90% it be cheaper? What's the one thing we can 981 01:09:30.060 --> 01:09:38.130 A:middle L:90% do to make this thing cheaper? I think a 982 01:09:38.130 --> 01:09:39.829 A:middle L:90% lot of the costs right now will start up costs 983 01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:41.550 A:middle L:90% , that's a function of the immaturity. I think 984 01:09:41.550 --> 01:09:44.109 A:middle L:90% as we get the workflows coming in, it takes 985 01:09:44.109 --> 01:09:45.840 A:middle L:90% so much to establish a workflow if you want the 986 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:49.890 A:middle L:90% turbine three versus under turtles through the because of my 987 01:09:49.890 --> 01:10:06.439 A:middle L:90% flask, any other thoughts, the same stimulus means 988 01:10:06.449 --> 01:10:10.119 A:middle L:90% so much cutting edge r and D. I think 989 01:10:10.130 --> 01:10:12.569 A:middle L:90% it always will do certain things, but at some 990 01:10:12.569 --> 01:10:17.180 A:middle L:90% point it starts being crossed this. All right, 991 01:10:23.149 --> 01:10:26.229 A:middle L:90% I want to say that yes, this can be 992 01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:34.079 A:middle L:90% done more cheaply than what some options about the original 993 01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:40.890 A:middle L:90% our agree that there is a service level of scalability 994 01:10:40.890 --> 01:10:45.479 A:middle L:90% , that's always question. Um but I also think 995 01:10:45.489 --> 01:10:47.479 A:middle L:90% we need to be looking at the flip of that 996 01:10:48.260 --> 01:10:50.369 A:middle L:90% . Yeah of the, you know, what does 997 01:10:50.369 --> 01:10:53.619 A:middle L:90% this cost so much? And I've spent lots of 998 01:10:53.630 --> 01:10:56.340 A:middle L:90% time talking with people about the difference between the best 999 01:10:56.350 --> 01:11:00.880 A:middle L:90% buy two terrifying drive in a storage system. Um 1000 01:11:01.460 --> 01:11:03.859 A:middle L:90% but I think we as as libraries, we also 1001 01:11:03.859 --> 01:11:09.180 A:middle L:90% need to look at something that we, you know 1002 01:11:09.189 --> 01:11:12.060 A:middle L:90% , really do in other areas and that is that 1003 01:11:12.069 --> 01:11:15.039 A:middle L:90% we need to start looking at other things. Are 1004 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:19.640 A:middle L:90% there services and other activities that actually done for a 1005 01:11:19.649 --> 01:11:21.939 A:middle L:90% period of time And they have, you know, 1006 01:11:21.939 --> 01:11:25.949 A:middle L:90% if you're talking about value propositions, then we need 1007 01:11:25.949 --> 01:11:30.069 A:middle L:90% to bring into the discussion value propositions of other things 1008 01:11:30.069 --> 01:11:33.890 A:middle L:90% we're doing so that we can look at realigning alignment 1009 01:11:33.899 --> 01:11:43.810 A:middle L:90% , your realigning what our priorities are reassigned people technologies 1010 01:11:43.810 --> 01:11:45.729 A:middle L:90% and so forth to assist us in dealing with digital 1011 01:11:45.729 --> 01:11:48.979 A:middle L:90% preservation, which I think will ultimately drive the cost 1012 01:11:49.460 --> 01:11:51.260 A:middle L:90% . Okay, great. Thank you. So, 1013 01:11:51.270 --> 01:11:56.069 A:middle L:90% we're getting into our break time Catherine looks like. 1014 01:11:58.350 --> 01:12:00.250 A:middle L:90% Yeah. Okay. So I haven't got time to 1015 01:12:00.260 --> 01:12:02.600 A:middle L:90% sort of reiterate some of these principles that I dropped 1016 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:05.170 A:middle L:90% it down trouble and I was trying to frame my 1017 01:12:05.180 --> 01:12:10.039 A:middle L:90% questions that I frame my principles so we can deal 1018 01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:12.800 A:middle L:90% with those in the action session. Um Just a 1019 01:12:12.810 --> 01:12:15.430 A:middle L:90% quick word about the action sessions. We've got some 1020 01:12:15.430 --> 01:12:17.640 A:middle L:90% parallel sessions here, I would just say that two 1021 01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:19.729 A:middle L:90% of them look quite similar, but if you want 1022 01:12:19.729 --> 01:12:25.449 A:middle L:90% to perhaps take at active part and do some exercises 1023 01:12:25.449 --> 01:12:27.850 A:middle L:90% and help foresee project, think through some of the 1024 01:12:27.850 --> 01:12:30.130 A:middle L:90% issues that we've talked about. I belong to myself 1025 01:12:31.260 --> 01:12:32.829 A:middle L:90% . If you prefer to have a sort of more 1026 01:12:32.829 --> 01:12:36.000 A:middle L:90% discursive approach to talking about costs and cost, spectrum 1027 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:40.640 A:middle L:90% and then you might want to go to paul says 1028 01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:45.430 A:middle L:90% he invited Greatest Center as well. Thanks very much 1029 01:12:45.470 --> 01:12:49.680 A:middle L:90% . Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.