keep an eye on this. But if you want
to, just start by telling me your name and
, uh, where you from? We'll get started
. Should I use Bill Vicars? Saw William Vickers
. Doesn't matter. Sandy Williams. That's fine.
You go by Bill by Bill. What's your full
name? William Deadly Vickers. And can you tell
me a little of your demographic information? Maybe where
you were born when you were born. I was
born in Martinsville, Virginia, October 6, 1940
1940. And today we've established is Do you want
to say what? Let's say, today is February
the 12th. This is February 12, 2015.
Yes. Okay. Uh, so we are going
to talk a little bit about your memories of the
racial integration of the Episcopal Diocese of Southwestern Virginia.
I'm interested in hearing a lot about your life,
but mostly my focus is on the era of integration
in the Episcopal Diocese. So I understand your family
was involved in a ST Paul's Episcopal Church in Martinsville
, Virginia, and you've been a lifelong member of
ST Paul's, so I don't know where you want
to start, Um, but you can start wherever
you like. and I'll pick up with questions.
Um, as as I as I need to do
as you tell your story. So I just like
to hear whatever. Whatever. Starting point you want
to, wherever you want to begin would be interesting
for me. I think I'm an Episcopalian primarily today
because my father was very, very, uh,
infatuated with the Episcopal Church. Uh huh. When
he came to the United States, he came from
Richmond, Barbados, and when the family settled in
Boston, Massachusetts, I thank the Episcopal Church was
very, very cordial to the family. And as
a result of that, I think that is the
church they visited and they chose to stick with.
What year was that? Do you know, or
what? About what year? I think he came
to America when he was about 11 years old.
So he that was about in 1911, 1911 or
12. That he came. Well, he and
his family came to Boston. Was it a particular
Episcopal church in Boston? Or was it Do you
know any more about that history? Or was it
just the Episcopal Church in general, it was probably
the Episcopal Church that was closest to where they live
. And I don't remember the name of the Episcopal
Church in Boston. Um, and he grew up
Episcopalian. And when he came to the margins ville
to set up his practice, I'm thinking that would
have been in the late twenties or early thirties.
The churches, of course, were segregated at that
particular time. And, having been accustomed to the
Episcopal Service, he wasn't as pleased with the services
that he saw. Uh huh, in the other
churches, and he decided to go to the diocese
on Southwest Virginia. Bishop Phillips was the bishop at
that particular time, and he told Bishop Phillips that
he was interested in an Episcopal church being in Martinsville
, and the bishop gave him permission to start a
study session and people who had the same inclinations that
my dad had were invited to come and participate in
. Uh huh, the study of the, uh
, Episcopal traditions and history and so forth. And
I think they started working from homes. And in
the very beginning, my first memory of being in
a church service was that Mrs Mary McDaniels house in
East Martinsville and for several years, we at Sunday
morning worship at her house, and my dad eventually
encourage more people to come to the services and the
numbers increased. And it's my understanding that the first
confirmation they had was December the seventh, 1941.
A lot of things happened during that day, and
eventually they started, um, trying to raise funds
to build the church, and a lot was available
on Fed Street, and my dad found out about
it, and it was in walking distance of our
home. And it was such that people in that
neighborhood could walk to church if they wanted to.
Now there were still people in other parts of town
who would have to drive because of the distance.
And after the lot was purchased, I think the
bishop authorized them to start on the foundation of the
church. And for several years we had service in
the basement of the church and actually wanted hardly no
. It was a church there because the lot slope
down and the top of the church was almost level
with the highway, and people used to refer to
it as a flat top church, and in 1955
they were given permission to complete the the structure.
And I think the church was completed in 55 and
we use the basement of the church two. Establish
a preschool. There were people in the community who
were interested in working, even if it was part
of the day. Oh, all day. But
there were no preschools in West Martinsville at that time
. And the church was able to get Mrs Bessie
Woodward, who had retired from the Martinsville school system
as an elementary teacher. And she was the teacher
and then many of the parents in that community.
We're glad to have a place they could leave the
Children while they earned a few hours working. Um
, so I think from about eight until 12 or
something like that, the preschool was in operation and
it grew, and many Children from all over town
ended up coming. Both black Children and white Children
. At that time, Uh, the white Children
already had preschools, but at this particular time it
was people in the neighborhood primarily, and the neighborhoods
were very segregated at that time. So these were
black Children. That came. However, if someone
had interest in enrolling a white child, that certainly
would not have been a problem with the members of
ST Paul's. And it was noted that those Children
who got that early training and that early familiarity with
letter formations, writing, learning to read and spell
seemed to have had an advantage once they got into
the public school. And it was well noted and
well documented that it made a difference for these Children
to be trained as early as it's possible. And
somebody did a study years later, after the Children
had even going through high school. And it was
revealed that those Children who got that early start seems
to have been well prepared. And they seem to
have scored better. And their academic performance seems to
have been better than Children who did not come to
the preschool. That's interesting. And as a matter
of fact, that pattern followed right on through to
high school and even in college. What years did
the preschool operate? Do you remember? I think
the preschool probably started. I'm thinking around 1940 this
is six or 47 and I know my two younger
sisters changes. You were already in school. Yes
, I was already in school like that. You
said that the church started in at Mrs McDaniels home
. Do you recall what year? That was what
around what year that would have been. I'm thinking
that would have been in the early forties. I'm
thinking probably 19, 41 42 43. Something like
that. I can remember, uh, going out
to church with my dad. And I can remember
stopping at an apartment where the Penis live. And
he would pick her because she would play the piano
at Mrs McDaniels house, and later she would play
at the church. Mhm. And I'm thinking in
the early fight is the preschool started and it was
well on the way. Bye. The mid forward
is, And and and fifties. So did the
preschool continue. Once the church was up and running
and had have been completed, the construction had been
completed that the preschool continue as a function of the
church. It did go well into the fifties.
And when Mrs Woodward decided to retire Uh huh.
Actually, Mrs Woodward wasn't an Episcopalian. Mrs.
Woodward was a member of the Presbyterian Church, and
I think her father had been a Presbyterian minister.
No, some of the people in her family were
Presbyterians. But, um, another lady took over
the preschool when Mrs Woodward retired, and that was
Mrs Miriam Alan and she came in and she picked
up where Mrs Woodward left off, and Mrs Allen
had been a former teacher. Also, what do
you remember about the troublesome years of integration in Martinsville
and the bishop and what Bishop Marmon wanted to do
with integrating the black church and the white church in
Martinsville? And why did ST Paul's maintain its Its
identity in Martinsville is separate from Price Church. Well
, at that particular time, I don't think I
knew of any churches in Martinsville that were integrated.
Um, I don't really know if some of the
members would have been welcome at any of the white
churches at that time, but I do remember that
several of the members of Christchurch would come to ST
Paul's Church to lay read. One was John Schultz
, who owned a radio station in Martinsville, and
one was Paul Zimmerman, who worked at the radio
station as well. And we have ever since I
can remember, there have been individuals from Christchurch who
would come down to ST Paul's church, Joel a
read, and usually to help with anything we asked
them to help with, or if they saw something
that needed to be done and if they felt they
could be a service, Um, did members of
ST Paul's go to Christchurch for any purposes? Or
was it just people from Christchurch coming to ST Paul's
? Well, the people who were coming from Christchurch
to ST Paul's, We're working in a lay reading
capacity. I don't think we had families that were
visiting in the forties and fifties because not because I
think people held hostility for each other. It's just
something that, yeah, the water fountains were segregated
the bus. The buses were segregated, the lunch
counters were segregated. Segregation was so entrenched that at
that particular time, I'm not sure many people in
West End gave much consideration to go into Christchurch.
And I don't think many people in Christchurch gave much
consideration to come to ST Paul's Church. No,
no, no. But they did come there when
, uh, they were asked to come down and
lay read and be a part of the service.
Why would they? Why would they be asked to
lay read what was the function of helping out as
lay readers? Sometimes, if we had a problem
in one of the lay readers at ST Paul's,
couldn't be there. Uh huh. It was just
a question of personnel. If you needed an extra
lay reader, we needed an extra lay reader or
airport. The regular lay readers were out of town
or couldn't function in that capacity. So was ST
Paul's, a smaller congregation than Christchurch? Absolutely much
smaller. Uh, the type of service that takes
place in the Episcopal Church was not one that most
of the black people were familiar with. They dealt
with a more charismatic type service with clapping and shouting
, and, um, some of the gestures and
activities that, um, that the Episcopal Church did
. It was a more calm type service, and
that didn't have as much appeal to some of the
people who had always been brought up in an apostolic
type church. And there were some people who were
members of the Episcopal Church who didn't subscribe to the
type of service that took place in some of the
apostolic churches. Just a difference of, I guess
, preference as well as desire. You had a
priest during this time who was who was leading the
congregation, not at first. But as the group
got larger, the bishop did have a gentleman named
Reverend Summers. Reverend Summers, I think, came
from Lynchburg and he would come down and I can
remember him preaching. And I think he probably went
to churches and maybe Chatham and Lynchburg, where they
were beginning to maybe start an Episcopal church there.
Or it may have been that one already that a
church already existed there and he was serving as a
lay minister. I mean, not but as a
supply minister, Rather mhm. And he was with
you for a number of years. Yes, and
later Ravin Kenny Cornelius Dawson came and he actually moved
to Martinsville. I think he came from South Carolina
. But he moved to Martinsville, and at first
he stayed in an apartment on Barton Street and later
the church was able to secure a house on.
I think it was Fourth Street that was in the
neighborhood, not far from the church. So he
was actually a part of the community as well.
That's what you hoped for, isn't it? Yes
. Did he have a family? Yes, but
his daughters were young women. Uh, he didn't
have any Children our age, I suppose. When
he came to Martinsville, his daughters were in their
twenties and so forth. And how old were you
? Do you remember when he came to Martinsville?
Probably six or seven. So this is before this
would have been before summers. Uh, this was
Reverend Mars. Came after Somer's. Some has never
lived in Martinsville. Traveled, I think, from
Lynchburg or somewhere to Martinsville to serve as a supply
minister for us. So he was in the early
forties? Yes. Okay. And eventually, the
Bishop Phillips, uh, sent Reverend Dawson to us
. And after Dawson, Who was Who was the
priest? You do recall. You probably know them
all. I don't know if you can recall them
off the top of your head and sequence. That
would be a challenge. But after Reverend Dawson,
we had Reverend Mars, and Reverend Morris was here
for several years, and I have forgotten exactly when
Reverend Morris left, but that would have been in
the late fifties. But I remember Boo probably in
high school when he left, because on Sundays.
Martinsville did not have a swimming pool that blacks could
attend at that time. And he would mhm especially
for the young men who came, uh, to
the church. He would offer to take us to
Danville, where they did have a swimming who where
blacks could swim. And we all look forward to
that. And we have fond memories of REV in
Mars doing that. And I think he was the
first to stay in a house that was secured by
the church. That was our first rectory. Well
, really, Our only one. And eventually the
church ended up selling. They directory. Were you
confirmed by during the time that Reverend Morris was the
rector at your church? I was. I think
I was christened at Mrs McDaniels House. But I
believe by the time I was confirmed, we were
at our church on Fair Street. And do you
remember or do you have records of who who confirmed
you with the Bishop Marmion who confirmed you, Bishop
. Mommy. Um, I don't think was in
the diocese when Africa confirmed, but I think Mr
Phillips was probably I don't remember when I do remember
. My father passed when I was nine years old
, so I was too young to have been confirmed
at that point in 1950. But I do remember
Bishop Phillips come into ST Paul's because he did my
father's funeral. Your father was a Was he a
physician in town? He was a dentist. The
dentist tell me a little bit about some of the
other people in the congregation that you remember. A
number of of prominent people in Martin's in Martinsville.
Is that is that accurate? Would you say I
think we kind of covered the spectrum, but I
think a lot of the people who initially came to
ST Paul's were people who my dad was very close
to. Um, one was a Realtor Bill News
. He dealt with real estate, and he also
ran an insurance agency. And he was a very
prominent member, and he was part of the early
group. That work team get the church going,
and Tommy Johnson worked with the newspaper the Bullets and
and Tommy Johnson was very instrumental and getting the church
started and he was very supportive. And if I'm
not mistaken, I think the first altar we had
might have been built by Tommy Johnson and George and
Jean Hairston. Um, Jeanne Hairston was a nurse
, and George was an insurance agent, and he
was very, very mhm prominent in the early development
of the church. And, of course, the
McDaniels were, uh Mrs McDaniel was a teacher,
and I guess she was glad to have us get
our own place, because every Sunday we would be
at her in her living, right. But she
never seemed to have mind that at all. She
was very accommodating. And, uh, there were
a lot of Children in the neighborhood who we're friends
of my family, and they were invited to church
. And many of them came onto church, Uh
, well, to Sunday school and then eventually the
church as well. So it was. It was
an interesting time. And some, even though what
we had was very humble, mhm, many of
us didn't know of the find structures that some of
these other churches had that had been in existence for
years before. One, uh, anybody ever thought
about an Episcopal church in the black community. Oh
, can you talk a little bit about your memories
of the time of integration? Do you remember that
as a time that was fraught or anxiety ridden,
the There are many things that lead to before the
school integration. There were many things that led up
to that. For example, in Weston, when
I was very young, there were no paved streets
and no sidewalks and no curb and gutter. And
my father was very instrumental in getting curb and gutter
and sidewalks in West End. The When you say
West End, that's the neighborhood where the church that
is the neighborhood where the church's Martinsville that was also
the part of town where blacks were more concentrated because
everything was tremendously segregated. God in the forties and
the fifties and so forth. And and one thing
that was an issue when my father came, MM
was very adamant about individuals registering and voting. I
think when he came, I don't think there were
more than about a dozen registered voters in the black
community. And in his practice and in his socialization
, he encouraged more people to go up to register
, which they did. And of course, that
was very helpful. I think you have some voice
when you have a vote, and if you don't
have a vote, then you accept what you get
. And I can remember when they start when they
put sidewalks in front of our house in Western as
well as the pave streets. Um, I can
remember when that back door Third Street was a dirt
road, and when it was rain, Children would
be walking to school and so forth in the mud
. And my father didn't really appreciate the fact that
his Children and their contemporaries we're dealing with conditions that
were more primitive than what he grew up with as
a child. And he did a lot to make
a lot of changes in terms of not just bringing
more people into the church, but also in support
and voter registration, and having the city to do
more in terms, a curb and gotta and pay
your streets and so forth mhm and also to have
it so that buses could come and pick up Children
in Western to take them to school to take into
school. Yes, they would have bus stops.
And before they had the buses when I started school
, they didn't have buses and and then people,
especially after they start voting and after they got more
politically involved and so forth. Um, some changes
came about for the better. But this business of
everything being segregated, it was something that people had
gotten accustomed to. And they just figured that this
this is the way it's supposed to be. And
I think it took some people who came from different
places. Do let them understand. No, this
is not the way it's supposed to be. This
is the way it is. But this is not
the way it's supposed to be. And they started
to become more aggressive about voting and asking for one
. I think accommodations that we're conspicuous by their absence
, and this continued for a long time. But
I think some of my proudest moments of Martinsville came
in 1968. I finished high school in 1958 and
at that time all of the schools were segregated,
and that was just a way of life, that
that's just the way it was. And so forth
. 1968 The city decided to build a new high
school, and there was a lot of discussion as
to whether or not this would be an integrated high
school or a segregated high school. And many of
the individuals just assumed that well, since the high
school Martinsville High School prior to 1968 was a building
that was starting to age. It was considerably better
than Albert Harris was at that particular time, but
the high school was. It was really expected to
be just a new Martinsville High School with the same
practices Air Force and people in West ends. We're
paying taxes to and so forth, and I think
there was a lot of encouragement from a number of
people that this would just be a new high school
. But it would be a white school, just
a new, uh, rendition of the old.
And there was some conversation back and forth and so
forth and towards the and it was decided that,
well, we will. I think the powers that
be in the city decided that it would be a
freedom of choice with, I think, the expectation
being that well, they knew that the white students
would choose the new high school, and I think
many thought that the black Children who had always been
in a segregated situation would be a part of Albert
Harris. But when they finished looking at the votes
, they just had a handful of people in the
black community that with freedom of choice, voted to
stay and Albert Harris. And that is the high
school aspect of it. Yeah, Albert Harris did
have a yeah, elementary school that was not too
old, but the high school was. Well,
when I graduated, it was the same building that
had been there, I guess. In the thirties
and so forth, and once the votes were county
, they only had a handful. Who blacks who
said they wanted to be in the old Albert Harris
building. And many people were very apprehensive about bringing
black and white students together. And some of the
individuals in the black community and in the white community
and many of the ministers got together and formed a
human relations committee. Mm. And one of the
individuals who really took a leading role in trying to
work with some of the students before they actually got
over to the high school was a member of Christchurch
and and she is a member over their name,
and she changed her membership from Baptists to the Episcopal
Church, and I don't remember whether she was in
the Baptist church at that time or whether she was
in the Episcopal Church at that particular time. But
she's a member of the Christ Episcopal Church now what's
her name and Wales mhm. And she's She's a
most exceptional person because the thing I always liked about
her, you never have to worry about who's gonna
show up. She was an independent thinker, and
you didn't have to wonder about what she's thinking,
because if she thought it, she said. And
she meant what she said and said what you meant
. And she, along with some of the other
ministers with different churches, actually got a core of
students together. And it allowed some of these students
to have some type, uh, communications, an
association with each other before they walked into the high
school for the first time. So once they opened
the doors, all right, so once, once
they went into Martinsville High School, once the Children
got over to Martin's will ask who because of the
intervention of Anibal Whales and Dr Chavez Horn, who
was passed at another church, and several of the
churches got together Well, the ministers got together,
and I think they had some discussions with these Children
, some black and some white. And one of
the most miraculous things happened when many schools all around
Martinsville, we're going up in flames by bringing the
black kids and the white kids together. The kids
at Martinsville, from the black community and from the
white community they came in, and from the looks
of things, one would have thought, Well,
they've been here all the time. But some of
the adults who formed a human relations group, um
, I think we're able to talk to a lot
of the young people. And some of these Children
already had some relationship with each other before they got
there. And once they got to the high school
, the administrators at the high school new that one
of the things that could cause things to go up
in flames, you have to have student council officers
. You have to have class officers. Yeah,
well, you have cheerleaders and major threats. And
these in many instances, and especially at that time
, these were voted on by the student body and
the black students. We're at a minority in terms
of voting. But when the kids came in and
voted for student council officers, they had a very
healthy representation of ethnicity. Mm. When they voted
for student for class or class officers and student council
representatives, people could see that it was a mixed
a group of individuals. Even when the cheerleaders were
voted on, there were black and white cheerleaders.
If it had been just the opposite, if it
had been a situation where that was a heavy concentration
of one group or the other, that would have
caused, I think, great concern. But the
Children voted and they voted very wisely, and they
were liberal in terms of their votes. And you
know what you're talking about because you spent your career
. Would you like to talk about that for a
moment? For me, as a as an educator
? Well, I started in a segregated school,
Albert Harris, just as about any school I knew
of at the time. I started in 1964 1
, and at that time, most all of the
schools, especially in this area, were segregated.
And when we got to the high school, and
you were when you say you started. You started
. I started in 1964 teaching. I started teaching
in 1964 and in in an all black school.
Yes, And in 68 when we combined the two
schools, I was asked to be one of the
student council advises, and I worked with. At
that time it was Mary Jane Powell who was a
teacher there, and later Denise Morrison and Barbara up
early, and we felt that we needed a human
Relations Council and on this on student council, we
had a human relations committee and these Children would meet
and we would discuss ways that we could facilitate.
Uh, the activities and the course of action of
the students and the Children were very mature in terms
of how to do these things. And this was
a human relations committee from the student council. And
then we thought, Well, we need a student
. We need a human relations committee where people don't
have to be voted into. So we started another
human relations group in addition to the one we already
had. We call it Project Understanding where anybody in
the school could come in and be a part of
that particular group, and I had a pretty good
size room because I taught science. And in the
first part of the room we had desk and in
the back of the room we had tables and stools
and so forth, so the science rooms were larger
than the average room there. So when we announced
we were going to have a human relations group that
any of the students could be a part of who
wanted to be a part of the human relations group
, we've just about fill the room up. And
that was a good situation because the kids got a
chance to know each other better. And I think
some bonding took place. And it was a case
where some of the white students could say, Well
, why is it you all do such and such
a thing and the black students because, well,
this is how that happens, and this is why
we do such and such a thing, and then
they would reverse it. The white Children would ask
about certain things, and the black Children would ask
about certain things, and I think they got a
chance to understand each other better. And then when
we had different activities with the student council and with
the student population, um, kids would be working
together who ordinarily would not have been working together.
For example, we had paper drives where we would
collect papers, newspapers and bundle them and put them
in a tutorial on and they go off to be
recycled. Then we did glass drives where people would
bring glass in and we would get those get the
glass. Sometimes we had instruments where we had to
stand up and we had to crunch. But we
had protection that there were long handles and the glass
would be way below. But it was a situation
where the kids were saved, but the glass could
be taken off to be recycled. But we were
teaching them something about, in addition to human relations
. Were teaching them something about ecology as well.
Sure, and one of the blessings that we had
also, um, I mentioned an elbow Wells,
who was always a person who was interested in equity
and interested in what's right and what's question, and
her daughter, Natalie, was in that first group
as well, and I think Natalie inherited a lot
of her mother's concerns, and Natalie was very good
at working with different people. Didn't matter what religion
, what ethnicity, what economic she could work with
everybody to. And then we had an individual who
had a very, very important role to fulfill.
And I think he might have been a member of
Christ's Church at that time, and his name was
Bradley Johnson, and he was in charge of the
election committee. He, um, would work to
make sure people were registered to vote. And when
you came to vote, you voted properly and it
wouldn't be a situation where somebody could vote more than
once or anything like that. And once the ballots
were placed into the box, it was a locked
box and he had a key to it, and
I had a key to it, and that was
so much of that really is contributed to his organization
and his savvy in terms of how it should be
done. And Bradley is a good friend even today
, and today he is. He has Children in
the Martinsville City school system, and he's an attorney
left that Let me get you to move over here
because the sun is not cooperating with this. And
and I'm gonna ask you, uh, I've promised
that we wouldn't go over 90 minutes. So we're
winding close to our time. Um, and I
want to ask you just another question about maybe your
memories of, um, do you remember any any
any discussion over Bishop Marmi in wanting? I'm interested
in two things. I want to know your memories
of Bishop Marmi in. And I'm interested in any
discussions that may have occurred at the church about possible
, um, mergers between ST Paul's and Christchurch or
discussions about integration that may have occurred. Um,
and and then tangentially discussions about the conference center him
lock haven that you may recall from the era of
the sixties, the early sixties. I remember at
a very early age, my younger sisters being in
attendance at him like haven and I think that was
encouraged. And I think that was supported. And
do you remember what year that would have been?
Well, she graduated in 1965 so it would have
been prior to 1965 bad things. Okay. And
, uh, so would it have been when she
was in high school. How much prior to 65
. 64 or 55 or Well, it wasn't purchased
until 57. I think so. I would think
in the early sixties, early sixties. Says she
would have been a teenager. Yes, all right
. And she went to some of the, um
, conferences and some of the things they had that
previously there was no, um, variety and ethnicity
. Okay, the thing that took place, I
think some people in the diocese we're not in favor
of it being opened on an integrated basis, and
I think I think that changed for the better.
Do you have any memory of why that changed or
how that changed? Um, I think my research
bears you out that it absolutely was, uh,
controversy in the diocese and a struggle. Uh,
and I'm interested in hearing your your views on that
. Well, I really think there are where they
were. A lot of conservative people in the diocese
. There were also some individuals who were very liberal
and the thing that I believe took place, some
of the people who had been so very, very
conservative eventually started to change. And I think one
individual who had been very, very adamant about being
opened on a segregated basis later ended up telling the
church and maybe people in the diocese that he made
a mistake. Do you remember who that was?
I think it was Francis West, but it was
very refreshing to see that he had changed his mind
. And and that's it. Publicly, that that
was a mistake. Yeah. What are your memories
of what was going on during that time in Martinsville
where, you know, you have a historical memory
of it. Now you've heard the stories about Francis
West and his public apology about that and, you
know, some of the historical transition that occurred.
Do you remember any of that in the moment?
Do you remember being aware of it at the time
? The thing that I have a greater recall for
is to be able to observe, I think positive
evolution. Um, some of the individuals who were
totally in favor of segregation to see some of them
turned the corner, and this is black and white
. And when some of the individuals some admitted that
that wasn't the way they should be thinking, and
some never said But they showed by action that that
had a change of hard and mine and the thing
that stands out so much in my mind right now
. I remember Look magazine coming to Martinsville, and
they made several observations of what was taking place in
Martinsville, and they even came to the schools.
And when they came to the schools, they saw
Children going to school and working together and getting along
. And and they knew that these kids had come
from totally segregated societies. And they interviewed teachers.
They interviewed principles. They interviewed students, and they
let us know that they were very impressed. What
year was this? I think this might have been
in the I'd have to check that, to be
sure. Late sixties? No, this was later
than that. Okay, because it would be easy
to check out, because soon after they left,
Martinsville was noted as an all American city. And
I'm not saying all of this happened because of the
integration in the positive integration in high school, but
I'm sure it didn't hurt either. Right? Uh
, in other parts of the diocese, Bishop Marmi
in who I think was in favour, was widely
in favor of integration to promote integration, closed small
black Episcopal churches and encouraged the congregants to become members
of the larger white Episcopal churches. Why do you
think he did not close ST Paul's and encourage the
congregants to become members of Christ? I really don't
no, exactly what influenced his thinking on that.
But, um, I think he probably felt that
in certain populations. Yeah, there was dwindling populations
in both churches that it would make sense to have
the congregations come back. And I've never had a
discussion with him in regards to that. But one
of the things as it related to ST Paul's Church
, ST Paul's, as for such a long time
, had a number of activities that took place in
West End that probably may not have been able to
materialize. Yeah, it hadn't been there. Now
it was the meeting place for a long time.
For the Boy Scouts, it was a meeting place
for the Girl Scouts. It was a meeting place
for a learning center. Some of the kids in
West End didn't have as much parental support as they
may have had in other sections of town. And
when a Learning Center was created. Kids could come
in and get help with their homework. They could
get help in there reading and mad skills. And
that may have that might have been part of his
thinking. I don't know, and I think he
was aware of some of the community activities that ST
Paul's was involved with, and some people could walk
to say Paul's from their homes. We're walking from
ST Paul's over to Christchurch may have been more on
difficult. Do you think if ST Paul's had closed
, members of ST uh of ST Paul's would have
been welcome at Christchurch? Um, I'm sure they
would have been welcomed by many at Christchurch. I
know that whenever I have been over there, I've
always been treated very cordially in the 19 sixties.
Would this have been the case? I think there
may have been more conservative people, and their ideas
at the time may have been more conservative. But
the thing that has happened since school integration, many
people from the black community and the white community have
had opportunities to work together on certain things, whether
it's a community function or something else. But they've
had a chance to enjoy, uh, and get
to know each other through the job situation and through
other things that have brought people together a lot of
times people prejudice against and an apprehensive about things they
don't know. But once they find out and get
to know people better, the attitude changes. It
sounds like the schools in Martinsville were a real leader
in shaping the attitudes of towards integration. I think
so. I think I think there were people on
both sides who found people in the opposite ethnicity.
Once they got to know certain people, they found
out. Wait a minute. I've got more in
common with. So and so then I do.
Somebody is of my own ethnicity, and it gives
people a chance to really get to know each other
, as opposed to just saying that because that person
is white or that person is black. They have
to think a certain way or whatever. But what
about Bishop Marmee? And did you know him well
? Yes, I know. District mama. Uh
, actually, I go back all the way to
Bishop Phillips. I was very young, but I
remember him preaching my father's funeral. Uh, can
you tell me any any specific memories of Bishop Marmee
and that you might have and I've got about five
or 10 minutes before we have to stop. But
anything of that you can recall about Bishop Marmi in
? I think Bishop Mommy in was always supportive of
ST Paul's Church. He was very cordial, and
I think we could talk to him about anything that
we needed more clarification on. And he did.
He was involved in sending some ministers to us who
were a very good fit. For instance, um
, it starts to run together a little bit.
We've had several, but, um, we have
had I don't remember any bad ministers we've ever had
that any of the bishops sent. That's good,
but I think sometimes one can remember a positive gesture
. Mhm. And then as the years go by
, you have to say, Well, now who
did that? Was Bishop mommy on or was it
Bishop Light? Or that's all right. But there
have been some tremendous ministers who have come to us
and Bishop Well, the bishop sent us Reverend Carol
Brooke and Carol Brooke was an exceptional individual and see
along with him his wife, Mrs Brooke, who
was an outstanding musician. Nice. And actually,
I think the Brooks were responsible for the piano that
we have in the church now. And Mrs Brooke
was a concert pianist and Jim Welch I came down
and Jim Welch was a good fit with us.
And then would Wells was a good fit with us
. I remember from one of his sermons, he
mentioned. Sometimes when things look hard, sometimes you
can take on a little bit more responsibility and the
load gets lighter, he said. When he was
a youngster, they had to transport water either from
the spring or from the whale up to the house
. And he noticed that when he Phil the bucket
up to the brim when he got to the house
about half of it, he had lost through spillage
. And he noticed that when he started filling up
to buckets, it provided better equilibrium, and he
could carry twice as much water with less village.
When he carried both that appealed to the science teacher
and you Well, that's that's it's good and and
I think I mentioned this, um, earlier.
But Linwood last concern about the same time I was
losing my wife, But just a few hours before
she actually passed, he was up in the hospital
room trying to comfort us and and praying for badly
. That's remarkable. It really is. And just
an exceptional person. And when, uh and with
both of them departing about the same time, I
remember him showing up at the door one day and
said, Bill, um, let's go to the
hospital They having Greece sessions And they had individuals who
were trained to help people with the loss of a
loved one. And the two of you went together
. We went together and we met somebody else over
there. Who whose wife actually talked with us with
me at the high school. And he was over
there. And I think all of us benefited from
Yeah, they're training. That's nice. Nice.
Alright, we're at our time limit. Um,
so I'm gonna stop. Is there anything else that
I haven't asked that you that you need to?
If you'd like to add? I just like to
make it perfectly clear, even though we have two
churches here, I think, for the most part
, the people who come from Christchurch sometimes in worship
with us. I think they feel welcome. And
I've always felt welcome when I went over there,
and sometimes we do loaves and fishes together. I
haven't been over two loaves and fishes much this year
because I've had a lot going on. I've had
a few deaths in my family and illnesses and so
forth. But when I go over at lows and
fishes, I see so many of my former students
. I see a lot of people coming in.
Two get a meal that I knew from the high
school. But also I have a chance to work
with when we're doing when we're over there serving the
people who come in, it's a chance for me
to have kind of a reunion with a lot of
my old students, uh, many of them who
are members of Christchurch and who are there helping as
well. That's great. Well, I hope I
can come over and worship with you all one