Welcome to the History makers Project. Could you please
introduce yourself? Yeah, I'm Rita Richie, mm
from Wayne State in Detroit. Right. And can
you tell us a little bit about your career path
from where you started and how you got to win
state? Okay. Um, well, I started
off like many people teaching school. I requested something
I requested middle school. They weren't called middle schools
in junior eyes. Um, and so I was
three years in a junior high, a year in
high school. And at that point I'd gone into
reading and was working with secondary reading work. And
I then went to a local community college when they
were building a new campus. And I went there
and they were looking for a secondary reading person,
which was at that time pretty unusual. And so
I was in charge of setting up what we then
called a remedial program that's not acceptable language today.
Um, so I did that when I finished my
PhD, I went to Wayne State 1971 Stayed there
until I retired in 2008. Excellent. So wonderful
. They were lucky to have you, I'm sure
. What is the primary focus of your research?
Well, it was always instructional design and especially designed
research in theory. And as you know, I've
done some other work in terms of competency development.
Perfect. Early on I did that before the working
hip stiffy that we were talking about. But it's
always been research and theory and instructional design. Please
talk a little bit more about your work with the
sticky stands for what? Oh, Internet is the
world's worst acronym. International Board of Standards for Training
. Performance and instructions Get an eight because I remember
what it stands for. Um So when it's to
be started, it had membership specifically from people in
the business community. Um large corporations, usually consultants
and then higher ed. And there were uh sort
of official representatives from each of these areas. So
I was asked to be a higher representative and was
on the board for 10 years, maybe long time
, a long time. But um the work on
competency development then and it has started early with some
instructive design competences that they mhm developed in the uh
huh eighties and they were they were pretty out of
date. And so the first thing I worked on
was the new instruct the instructional design confidences. In
fact they're just coming out with third set of design
competencies. But I worked on that and with the
board and also it was really through pipes to be
that. I edited the book on bob, can
you? Yeah but you know the competency development process
and all the research that went into it was huge
process. So putting the book together with just kind
of the icing on the cake. And you said
that was a combination of american society training and development
esteve and National Society of Forms and instructions and FBI
. Although I think back then it was called programmed
instruction. They changed their name. And then was
there a third O E C T. What was
the 3rd organization? Yeah. You came up with
it now, I can't remember. Okay, we'll
S T D O A S T D and S
P I and A CT. Okay. So those
are the original. Oh, impetus for it.
And of course, originally the the thing was it
was really exploring the idea of certification and was the
whole thought of competency knew at that point or some
sectors were using it well, you know, Not
really. I mean the first, the first work
I ever did with, you know, like a
job where they pay me in higher ed Was in
71 and I was in charge of the development of
instructional system when they were designing competency based teacher ed
systems. And so it was really the teacher at
work that was some of the early forerunners of competency
development and we did a was with a vocational education
program that at Wednesday and it was it was really
very interesting because you know, what was new was
criterion referenced testing and but we designed actually, even
writing objectives for classes was fairly new at that point
, people just have been doing that for a few
years. And so the competency movement really came out
of the teacher ed work that had been going on
fascinating. I don't know that too many people know
that well, yeah, it's probably lost because there's
a there's a fascinating piece of literature on that you
know, and chris with all of the discussion now
about you know, teacher effectiveness and all this stuff
that's in the paper, you know, I sort
of laughed thinking back because we had like part of
that program um well part of it was not only
writing objectives but writing test items for everything throughout the
program, including student teaching. So there was all
performance testing that went on in the field experiences in
the pre student teaching as well as the student teaching
and before you know it was so people talk about
things now did that four years ago, if you
don't know history you are doing to think you're reinventing
. Right? Well tell me a little bit more
about the book that you and they did on not
that kind oh don Gonyea. Well if you know
, how did you get to know him and well
, you know, I um I knew I'm sort
of like everybody knew I read his books because I
had not been a florida state student, so I
read his books and study things and see them at
conferences. And so it was just the, it
seemed to me that he was so pivotal in the
field. I said, how come No 1's ever
taught this? Oh and it was sort of interesting
because the book has a section with reprints of pieces
that represent his major contributions um as well as people
doing it then following up with analysis, parts about
the impact on mhm. On learning on military work
, not that different kind of feels. So it
was sort of interesting. Um he was he was
still alive when that was when that was done and
I did, I sent him, I sent him
the outline and because it's hard when someone's written a
lot of books, you can't report the book.
So you need journal articles really. And so I
wanted to make sure the ones I picked out were
the ones that he thought were really getting, you
know, the real core of his contributions which he
said, yeah, he said you're right, those
are those are all on, he added one which
was interesting and I don't know if people are reading
that a lot now it was it was one of
the last pieces that he did with Dave mural.
And it was where they were really adding on another
layer of learning in terms of I mean now it's
probably what people will be calling complex learning. Um
but so we added, we added that piece in
. Tell me a little bit more about your work
with instructions design some of the things that you that
influenced you and then what you think you have actually
contributed. No, it, well, I don't
know. Well the original, how I got interested
instructional design. Um It was perhaps interesting. Um
I've mentioned that I had started off working in reading
and my masters was in psychology of reading and working
with Don smith at the University of michigan. Now
that was in the mid-60s. Nobody, nobody had
the true instructional design them. So that sort of
appeared somewhere in the seventies. But don, you
know, if you go back to the mid sixties
behaviorism was sort of the hot new thing on the
block. And Don did what was called discrimination programming
, a type of programmed instruction. And had the
reading clinic there. They had devised um really we'd
say now a very systematic set of programs, materials
for teaching basic skills and they taught them to low
IQ Children. They had adult programs, adult literacy
programmes. I mean it was really very interesting,
but so in my work with him, what I
really got interested in it was we'd say instructional design
, although no one said it, but you,
yeah, you learned really task analysis, writing objectives
, task analysis, writing, programmed instruction, things
like that. So I decided that I wanted to
go on with that area. And if you were
going to do being probably a lot of people started
off with degrees in its sight. If I continued
at michigan, it would have been an exciting degree
because they don't, they really still don't pay them
. I can see a program in our area.
Um But Don thought he was going to leave and
he took a leave for a year or two.
And so I said, well I'll wait and see
in the meantime. And that's about when I started
at this community college and the instructional technology program at
Wayne had when they were devising an entirely new curriculum
, had doctoral students out working with faculty, um
designing their forces. And so I was assigned to
someone and we sat down and he said, he
said, you already know all this stuff, don't
you think, oh this is all that I'm not
gonna teach. So, but we got to talking
about the program and I said, well, I
was right on the verge of wanting to go into
a doctoral program and holding off at that point.
So I talked to Jack Gordon? Who really is
out of the field now. But um I almost
I almost gave up on the task because he said
, well, people that get doctorates in this field
, if they're men, they go on to higher
education and if they're women they stay in the public
schools. Yes. Oh sorry that's what I was
thinking doing Iran. You know in fact I was
the first female. I mean it was a very
male program all over the country then I was the
first female that got a PhD in a I.
T. Wayne. That's exciting. Well it was
I mean it was it was all mad and um
in all white men. Yeah. And what's that
difficult was it? Yeah I'm oh not really.
I guess I just don't pay any attention to it
. Uh huh. But I was interested in design
. Jack was because of where I started with the
reading with the reading and and it was hard to
find programs that really work programs around that. Did
that I mean that was programs were still moving out
of the old audiovisual orientation. I remember when I
said, well if I get a degree in this
field, do I have to learn how the threat
of film projector? They said no. And I
said okay. Because I'm not, I'm not a
techie. Um, but what I was interested in
doing was going into teacher education and designing instructional programs
for teacher ed, which is a pretty your own
thing. Um, very important. Well, I
thought it was, plus I wasn't really mobile.
I was married and I mean it was very fortunate
that I ended up with a job doing exactly what
I wanted to do. So, So I was
really a teacher ed for 10 years because I went
into, I got this job at Wayne where I
got my degree, which you know, but because
I moved into teacher Ed and was tenured originally in
teacher Ed, I sort of went in the back
door, back Deputy X Well, can you share
some of the major ideas and approaches and people that
have stimulated your work? Well, I'll tell you
know, I talked about don smith who was an
early person in terms of uh huh really, learning
about design. The other one that was really important
was Leonard Silver and which is a name that I
imagine a lot of people don't don't know if you
talked about bob Hynek asked him about Leonard Silver because
he was not an old friend of his. But
when I had started at work at this community college
, which was a wonderful experience and I knew at
the time that was probably the only time in my
career where you go in with really a blank slate
and be able to design an entire curriculum exactly the
way you wanted with nobody saying but we've always done
it this way and so forth. Well part of
the thing is they brought in for Leonard Silver and
gave a little talk you know and he was one
of the early systems people So I was I don't
know 25 or something. I tried it myself up
to the Dean of the Liberal arts school and I
said what you ought to do is send me out
to California so I can go to war training with
this guy. And he said okay so Silver had
a course that you could have gotten U. C
. L. A. Credit for it, I
didn't do that But it was eight hours of instruction
the day for a week. And before you went
you got sent this literally a stack of books like
this and you were supposed to have read them all
and done all of his stuff and so like a
good girl, I did all my homework without and
sat there and then um so you sat in class
all day long, you know eight hours a day
. And then he would give you homework at night
, you know about Wednesday? He says well have
you been seeing Los Angeles? And I thought when
did I have time to do this? This is
oh I'll show you the city. And so I
thought well I was going to see Hollywood or something
and what he showed me is he took me to
L. A. And I got to see the
IBM 3 60 90 computer which was one of the
early computers where you walked in and it was a
room bigger than this one and it was all the
computers took up the whole room. I thought well
no that wasn't my, no, Hollywood five.
What Silver taught was systems analysis and introduce the whole
idea of systems. And that was a different approach
for me and but obviously is very critical to design
. And so I think I have to put him
down as one of the people that sort of got
me going in the right direction, but his work
was phenomenal. It was quite a character, but
but Hynek, Hynek knows him well. Mm And
so I think Silver was really a an important person
in terms of early thinking that center on the things
. So that was the systems part and the analysis
and the behavioral approach and stuff. Originally came from
Don Smith. Mhm. In another area. But
that was you think that the first dick and carry
book came out in 78. So this was this
was I had that first work from cell Vernon 60
68, I believe. So that was 10 years
before you even had a textbook on that. So
it was really scraping together a lot of when you
were trying to work with faculty and teach people how
to put things together, you were some some good
materials came from the military. Did silver and have
some experience with the military or was he did,
he did, he did work with military, he
did industrial work, was involved in, in corporate
training and had done, but he taught us,
you know, and doing systems and now it's a
different kind of flow charting. I mean, this
was back when everybody had the IBM templates for the
flow charts that would get your things up the arrows
, in the boxes and all of those different pieces
, and he had a different flow charting language.
But so it was a matter of, it was
really a wonderful thing because you went into either an
existing thing or you devised and you by looking at
the whole system and devising and thinking of the,
the components and the sub components and the relationships between
and drew pictures of it. And uh, you
know, it really helped the thinking process. I
think when I was doing my early design work,
as I would be talking with people, I would
sort of in order to understand what they were seeing
, sit and flow chart and then you can see
where the holes were and what your questions had to
be. It's almost like mind mapping today and how
teachers using mapping. Soon point out misconceptions your client
could see where you were wrong and they were excellent
. Are there other pieces of history like that you
think people don't know today that they should? Well
, I think, I mean, one of the
other pieces, I haven't done that. I keep
saying I'm going to I don't know if I will
is to write and intellectual history of the field,
a history of the ideas. Because I think a
lot of that is lost. Um I mean including
when the field start, because if you lined up
a bunch of people and say when do the field
start or when the design start, they talk to
you about World War Two, you know, and
give you the thing about the training in World War
Two and all of that. Well, if you
go back into the early word, I mean,
I could show you books where people were writing that
based on World War One training materials and they were
really writing objectives. They were designing train. I
mean, it was much the same thing and when
it came out and for much the same reason why
they started in World War Two. They had done
that in World War. And it influenced a lot
of the early curriculum thinking it was it was really
sort of a systematic approach even though people were using
that. But they they were writing objectives. They
were doing job analysis I think you know it's it's
really much longer and I think I think that's missed
the the roots go back a lot four 1941.
Oh but you know and then when you look at
academic programs oh you know there were really very few
programs early on and some of the very earliest programs
as you know it's easier to tear program apart than
it is to build one. Mhm. And you
know the U. S. C. Program is
gone. The program that Jim Finn was at in
at Northern colorado disappeared for a long time and then
re emerge. So there's a Northern colorado program now
. But oh the Pittsburgh program has has really been
lost. You know it's so programs programs change and
they grow but you know, I suppose that's part
of the history but I think that a lot of
important people like what people are still studying Edgar dale
, they have kind of experiencing right now. Incidentally
when I first met Edgar Dale. Edgar Deal was
also a reading specialist and there was the dales chal
readability formula and that was but my first introduction to
Edgar Dale and this is all this nance done.
So he was he was considered a giant in the
reading field. Yes, he's a giant in all
these other fields. Um Barb seals, who I
worked with on the definition book was Edgar deals Last
Graduates isn't that fast? So she has some interesting
Edgar dale stories that are, you know. Mhm
. Really? Something are there others like Edgar dale
that have impacted? Well, yeah, he chris
he died, I think he died in 68 was
Jim Finn and he's hit. I mean he's really
responsible for this organization, for abc t starting and
for setting up academic programs. And so I think
we all lot to jump in boom in terms of
some of the ideas you have to recognize God.
And I think the thing about bob gone, yes
, is that when you read his stuff, most
of it seems, you know, okay, right
, it's pretty straightforward, got that and so forth
. And I think the more you study it,
the more you understand the complexity and I know it
wasn't a The first book I did the 86 theoretical
conceptual basis of instructional design. I remember distinctly writing
this stuff on Gonyea and going through this and it's
so true when you're writing you have to really after
I wrote that section all of a sudden I thought
I think I really understand him, I thought I
did before, I thought I was a hotshot but
I didn't, you know, I think that's very
true that he makes it simple, but it's so
complex. Yeah, that's the beauty of what he
does, that he is able to make it understandable
to everyone else. Yes, that's fascinating. Tell
us a little about your the books that you have
Henry. Well the first one was this theoretical and
conceptual basis of instructional design and uh that started off
I was going to write a Systems book and wrote
the Systems chapter first and then I I said no
this is just piece of it, you need to
do the other pieces to And uh of course that
one is people's first books are always interesting because nobody
ever wants to publish the first remember a rejection I
got that said well you don't have a big enough
name to write on this topic. Another one was
what we're only publishing books that have the word computer
in the top in the title. Mhm we'll pull
you. So anyway, that was That was my
1st 1. And what I was really trying to
do with that was to come up with a structure
of they were really taxonomy of the critical variables that
impacted design and what I wanted to do then which
I did was collect data on all of those variables
because there really was you know, we had learning
research but there hasn't wasn't that much studying design so
that this gets around to the next book. But
I did a series of evaluations is what I did
for ford motor company for their health and safety.
Uh huh. Programs related topics. I didn't know
diddly about but you know, but I had structured
the evaluation so I was also collecting Dina useful variables
that I wanted and that provided the basis for my
second book which probably is the least influential by I
thought it was good. Um And that was on
a systemic approach to adult learning. And what I
was really doing is presenting the data from all of
those forward studies in looking at adult learners. And
part of my my thing on that is everybody had
always said, well adult learning is very different from
when Children which partly there's some differences but you know
you really look at the data and Mhm learning is
learning and most of the key things were saying things
going on. But you know, people say,
oh it has to be relevant to adults and We
talked to a 10 year old, they say why
do I have to learn this? So anyway,
that that was my my second book, which was
in 91. Thanks. Mhm. And then shortly
after that, I we got involved with the definition
and terminology work here at Act, which came out
with the book that I did with Barbs Nielsen that
94 definition, What was the title of that one
? Definition and domains of the instructional technology. The
definition in domains of the field. Um Now that
sounds like it was a jump, but it really
it really wasn't because I really see the definition work
as sort of establishing the theoretical boundaries of the field
. So I think it's still saying what's our practice
space, what's our theory base, what's what's us
and what's not us. Um so, and then
shortly after that I moved into the ip sticky thing
, worked on the design competency project, the,
the gagne book and then the Training manager competency projects
and those books that came out of that. Um
Yes, trying to think if that goes up to
the design and development. Oh well, you know
, at this, around in that time the started
the handbooks and Dick johnson asked me if he says
could you, would you be interested in writing a
chapter on developmental research? And I said sure,
I'd be happy to do that. And so I
said, yeah, yeah, I mean that was
said that the term isn't commonly used and so it
was as much a matter of defining the concept as
it was describing the research and giving examples of the
research so done several. One of the controversies with
that is that some people and bob fraser was one
, he said, I don't like that term developmental
research, Why did you, why did you do
that? And I said, well because I was
given a jail. Yeah, so we've, we've
since really switched to design and development research, but
it's sort of an evolution of the need um what
happened and various people would say it's very interesting,
but no one says, how do you do it
? So that was the book that Jim Klein and
I did the design and development research and it was
really a methodology report. I'm how do you do
it Book that did that came out in 2008 is
the instructional design knowledge base that I did with Jim
klein and Monica Tracy And that really started off and
as sort of an update of that first book,
theoretical and conceptual basis. Oh, and you know
, I said, well this won't be too hard
, we're just going to be updating as well.
It's all sorts of things you had to put in
and obviously it turned out to be a bigger project
. What else is new? There are always bigger
projects. And then the last piece that I just
turned in at the end of august where I was
editing is the definition and terminology committee has been finishing
a project where we are concentrating not on definitions but
on the terminology piece. And so there's going to
be an encyclopedia of terminology in the field that's,
that's coming out and supposedly that should be out early
next year. So that's excellent. That will be
a big help to the field. It sounds like
in a lot of ways that you have been sort
of an analyzer and a synthesizer for the field as
a whole, would you say that's an accurate portrayal
? I think a lot of the work has,
but yeah, I mean, I don't, I
think I started off saying that's what I was going
to do, but, but I think a lot
of that has been fits into. That's excellent.
This what are some of the most important trends in
the field during your career and where you see things
going now? Well, you mentioned systems. Yeah
. I mean things sound looking back now. They
sound sort of obvious, but behaviorism was the big
thing when I started, which obviously we've gone into
cognitive and constructive and the whole systems notion and of
course technology. I mean, I can remember when
was this? Maybe early too Mid 90s, one
of the PDT meetings when they were in Bloomington,
someone came in with a little demonstration of this brand
new thing called the internet. It was really sad
, amazed and look at it. And I remember
the first time at a meeting, someone came and
demonstrate, demonstrated this word processing machine. I again
, these make you sound very old, but so
when you see what's happened to technology, uh huh
. You know where I started saying, do I
have to learn how to thread a film projector?
Um and I think the difference was if somebody wanted
to do instructional design today and said, you know
, I'm not a techie, do I have to
do that part? I think today the answer would
be yes, you have to do something, you
may not have to get into coding. I don't
know how you feel about that, but it's so
integrated into not only is our tools, but how
it affects the thinking and what you're doing is I
don't know how you you do a devoid of having
some understanding of the technology. Yes, that's and
do you see any trends now that excites you as
far make you think while we're well, just as
an example, I remember when I first started years
ago individualized instruction, but it wasn't really individualized instruction
. Do you think we're getting closer to the okay
? Or are there other trends that you are excited
by? Well, I mean the whole topic of
individualized instruction is interesting. I did my dissertation around
individualized instruction and around persistence and what keeps someone going
, which is still a issue right now and online
learning and how do you keep people going? And
I can remember when you almost had to apologize if
you were doing group instruction. So I know I
really should be individualizing, but you know, and
then it sort of went away from that and now
we're we really are moving back two various types of
individualized instruction. See that's it sort of what I
was talking about about the development of ideas in the
field and see all of the manifestations, the development
and growth some pretty basic ideas that I think are
interesting. You don't the whole thing on constructivism which
you know, it was sort of the politically correct
thing to do. I don't I don't know about
I people are there's one thing of talking about self
directed learning. Uh huh Individual development. Mm Used
to call it discovery learning. You know, some
of those things. But whether you really I mean
, he was a true constructivist, you wouldn't you
you wouldn't be giving objectives, our goals or whatever
you wanna call them. And I don't think I
think that we're emphasizing um a lot of personal involvement
and learning which is important but. Uh huh.
I don't know how much of it is true constructivism
if you go back to the ideas but that certainly
has affected how instructions being put together. I hope
I hope a trend is to put a lot more
emphasis on getting databases. Think data based rationales for
some of the design work we do. Um Our
work has been much of it has been very much
without a database. You know there was the learning
, the strategy selection, parts had databases but I
did some work on validation of instructional design models.
Remember talking to walt Dick and I said well you've
got longest model out. You know if there's any
validation data, has anybody ever done that with your
model? And he said, he said, they
just try it and say, well works so that's
it. But to really validate our models or to
have data saying that the same instructional design procedures are
appropriate regardless of the content area or the age group
or you know, the, you know, we
teach those things. These are the procedures and you
can then take it and use it in all these
different settings. We don't have any basis for saying
that. I mean we have a logical basis but
we don't have data for that. And I think
some of the what I call designer decision making research
where people have been going in and lot of its
qualitative talking to people about how they design and what
the rationale and what the thinking is and all of
that, they're finding that classroom teachers do. You
do some different things certainly than a corporate trainer.
You know, you know, there may be some
some different models very generally that have some of the
same principles. What I don't, you know,
I think that's the kind of thing that I think
we need to be doing is doing with that data
validating and coming up with mob data to support new
models are more than just don't logical intuit wrestling.
What do you think was the greatest accomplishment of your
? Oh, that's, that's the hardest question on
the West. I don't know. I suppose.
I'll tell you I Completed over 100 doctoral students.
Yes. So I suppose if, you know,
hopefully the things I've written added something to the field
, but I think they work with all of those
people is probably the now, I don't know you've
talked to all the 100 see if yeah, what
they learned from that from me beating up. But
you have a teacher's heart. That's great. Um
And let's see then how would you like to be
remembered? Yes. Hopefully not losing it. Um
I I'd like to I suppose it would be nice
to be remembered as someone who put some emphasis on
data. I that's that's a hard that's a hard
thing to do because the best data in the field
comes from the actual projects which means you have to
get into somebody else's work. Mhm. That we
had proprietary, you know, implications with it.
But I think that's the that's the kind of thing
and and it can be done. There are people
that are are willing to you can make deals.
Didn't get that data. Sure. I mean it's
like when I did the evaluations with Ford Motor Company
, I gave them evaluation reports, they're happy for
that and they said do whatever you want with so
it can be done well. Thank you very much 633 --> A:middle L:90% .