Austin Council  0:00  
Welcome students and listeners to "Leadership Untangled," a podcast series I've started for the leadership classes I teach at Virginia Tech. In this series we explore, untangle, and deconstruct what leadership means and how we can use it to affect social change in the world. I'm your host, Dr. Austin Council, and in today's episode, we will be untangling leadership education, what teaching leadership hopes to achieve, and why it is important to learn leadership in an educational setting. Joining me today is Dr. Eric Kaufman, an expert in the field. Dr. Kaufman is a mentor, a friend, and colleague of mine who serves as a professor of leadership in the Department of Agricultural, Leadership, and Community Education at Virginia Tech. Dr. Kaufman, welcome to the show.

Eric Kaufman  0:49  
Thanks, Austin. Glad to join you.

Austin Council  0:52  
So, I want to give our listeners a little bit of a background for how we met. I believe the first time we met was at ALE -- Association of Leadership Educators -- and Eric was assigned as my mentor. I believe, I want to say, it was the Chicago conference.

Eric Kaufman  1:06  
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I knew your academic advisor at University of Florida. And so I think she might have even told me first that we had been paired up for the conference. And she was really excited about that possibility for the two of us to connect.

Austin Council  1:21  
Dr. Kaufman and I both did our graduate work at University of Florida. So there's some there's some connections there. I want to start by just kind of getting to know you a little bit for our listeners and students. So maybe tell us a little bit about your journey into leadership education and what brought you to Virginia Tech.

Eric Kaufman  1:38  
Sometimes I'm not sure how much detail to offer. But I grew up in rural Ohio and was really not quite sure what sort of what the future held. I found myself sort of stunted, sometimes with opportunities growing up because of sort of my overall sort of approach and personality, I'm more introverted, but I did have some opportunities to sort of expand into some leadership roles in particular through the National FFA Organization, a youth organization connected with agriculture education, and some other things as well. But that really gave me some self confidence in terms of being able to engage in this space. But I never really thought of leadership education as a career. There were opportunities for me to engage in agriculture, education and sort of help the community that I was familiar with, that I grew up into. And so I started out a career in agriculture education and teaching high school agriculture and found some of the things that I enjoyed more was working with students in the youth development activities, sort of weekends and evening activities that were beyond the classroom. And then when I went to graduate school at the University of Florida, it really sort of opened up this possibility that leadership education was a thing and that somebody could pay me to do more of that work. I started working with an adult leadership program for Florida's Agriculture and Natural Resources community and serving in that sort of program coordinator role opened up some other opportunities. I wrote some curriculum for both youth and adults for nonprofit leadership and started out then, after finishing my PhD, my first faculty job was here at Virginia Tech, and really had the opportunity to sort of grow and expand what was taking place already at Virginia Tech, and certainly within the department and sort of move more into that, that space and, and sort of expand opportunities for students, but also do some community education work as well. And so a lot of it for me is just figuring out, you know, ways that I can help other people achieve their goals; and leadership education has been a space that has allowed me to do that.

Austin Council  3:36  
I want to go back to when you talked about how you describe yourself as being introverted. For our students, this will be maybe their first leadership class that they have taken or first exposure to learning about leadership. I think there are a lot of messages that say leadership is really reserved for more extroverted people. What would you say to a statement like?

Eric Kaufman  3:56  
Yeah, I think that's often assumed, and in fact, if you get into the research, there's things that suggest that Oh, somehow leadership is associated with extraversion. Well, coming at it from a more introverted, you know, sort of perspective. I took some offense initially, but I'm not doubting the research so much in terms of what's already been put out there. But it's important to know is that extraversion is more affiliated with leader emergence -- to be identified as a leader. People are more likely to identify as a leader someone who's extroverted. Part of that makes sense. An extroverted person, being more gregarious sort of getting to know lots of different people, they're more likely to be voted into a leadership role, because when the question comes up, "well, who do you want to be your leader?," more people would identify that person. There's not nearly as much evidence that suggests extraversion is associated with leadership effectiveness. And to the degree that it is, I would argue that has more to do with someone getting more practice. If someone is regularly identified as a leader, that they get more practice in a leadership role. So I think that's sometimes that is appropriate. And for certain contexts, you know, I've wondered about politics. And I don't know if I'd be so successful because there are politicians who, who are more introverted, but some of that is even more historically. I mean, as we get into what, what is expected of a politician, part of that role, maybe is more on the extroverted side. But there are other aspects of leadership that I think are not at all connected with extraversion. And there's not a reason to think that that someone who's introverted is going to be less effective as a leader. In fact, depending on what you're looking for, there are some key advantages that the more introverted folks, you know, have in leadership because of sort of the focus on some deeper relationships and, and listening processes and some deliberation that they might be more inclined to then than someone who's on the more extroverted side of the scale. 

Austin Council  6:02  
I appreciate how you said, that you made the distinction between, okay, so the research is saying extraversion is more towards leader emergence, differing from leadership effectiveness, because I think that's an it's an important distinction to make. It reminds me of, I know you and I have talked about Revisionist History before -- the Malcolm Gladwell podcast. He just did this episode on basically a kind of reframing how we look at elections and campaigning and make like the idea is there's to introduce like a lottery system where maybe people put their name in the hat and then or, you know, people vote for a certain number. And then from there, it's it's at random, and it was really cool to hear the stories of how you know, there were the the folks that emerged as like the charismatic type, but then they found that some of those folks did not last their whole term because they realized that it required a lot more than that.

Eric Kaufman  6:59  
I really I enjoyed that that podcast as well that Malcolm Gladwell did. I mean, it was it had to do more with sort of this sense of democracy being sort of a representative, you know, sort of government. I'm not saying, you know, extroverts make for bad leaders, I want people who are more extroverted to be in leadership roles. But I also don't want it to be biased towards that I think we really sort of exclude the potential for leadership. If, if we really believe that, you know, part of our challenges today relate to a deficit in leadership, then we need to not be ruling people out or suggesting that someone is, you know, can't be effective as a leader. And if half the population is on the more introverted side of that scale, we need to figure out ways that we're engaging and tapping into that leadership potential. I think that's really important. You know, it's, it's not something that I'm championing all the time, but it is something I'm conscious of because I feel like I am more on interest inside and it took a little while to sort of gain, you know, my own self confidence. And to be able to, to know that no, I can be successful in that those roles. And so I also want to empower and encourage others.

Austin Council  8:13  
Yeah, that's important to be more equitable with how we are presenting leadership, if we really believe that it's accessible to everyone, we need to we need to practice that and believe that, could you tell us what your personal definition of leadership is?

Eric Kaufman  8:27  
Yeah. So for me, leadership is a process of inspiring vision and hope. And it took me a while to come to that definition. But part of the reason why I sort of landed there is a recognized, we're gaining leadership from people who we've never met, that, you know, maybe have passed on, I think of Martin Luther King Jr. And from my perspective, I wonder, did we gain more leadership from him after his assassination, then even when he was alive and leading the civil rights era, I mean, people are continue need to look to him for, you know, some source of leadership. But I think it is a process. And my point there is leadership can sort of emerge in a lot of different ways. It's a process of inspiring vision and hope, a vision for where we might go, we think of, you know, his I Have a Dream speech, it was a vision for what the potential is, but also a hope that we can achieve that. And so, I mean, even thinking about just recently, john lewis is passing. I mean, if we're, if we're talking about sort of civil rights sort of things, what I really appreciated, john lewis seemed to always keep an optimistic, you know, sort of approach there and I think that's, that's hard to do. But to me, that that sense of hope is a key aspect of leadership as well. And it's a process and interaction between people, you know, that that we're, we're gaining from that it's, it's not a particular role, we can we can gain leadership From an experience, and that can really propel us to possibilities in a way, you know, that we didn't imagine before.

Austin Council  10:08  
I want to maybe talk a little bit about how that definition has evolved for you. Was there a, you know, a time when, when your definition did not include vision and hope? And what does that process look like for you to kind of develop that.

Eric Kaufman  10:23  
So, that definition for me this idea that that leadership is a process of inspiring vision and hope, brilliant, merged in, in graduate school in my PhD program. That was one of the things that my academic committee sort of challenged me to have a clear definition, and I thought it was appropriate. There are some leadership scholars that refuse to define leadership, which boggles my mind. I think look, if you're going to write about it make a clear definition. I needed to come up with I needed to come up with a clear definition that could be all encompassing. And so I had to think about Okay, where did where do we think you know, when people talk about leadership. What are they talking about? Where does it come from? How do we sort of put some bounds on that? Some people seem to oversimplify it. I mean, some I think even maybe this is john Maxwell has said leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less, sort of, as I talked to students about that, I might like push over a chair and say, Okay, I just influenced that chair, that leadership. Well, no. And so then they Well, what do you mean by influence? Look, there's a danger of oversimplifying it, there's a risk of over complicating it and sort of putting things on that don't sort of fit, you know, all the different scenarios. And so I tried to sort of fit that, you know, gaining this middle ground, my personal evolution, and part of this goes back to there's a leadership identity development model that really talks about sort of how we, you know, in our own sort of maturity sort of grow into sort of different levels of thinking about, you know, what it means to be a leader, which is not actually the same thing as leadership, but it's useful to sort of think about that, and I do think early on It was an idea that probably to begin with the thought of being very positional, that, you know, leadership had to do with people that are in specific roles. And they were selected for that. And that's what made it leadership because it came from those people in those roles. I think it probably then shifted a little bit more into sort of motivational speakers sort of thing that you know, something inspiring, but there is this notion that, okay, just because you've got people excited, doesn't mean that you've actually accomplished anything. And so I think the definition that I've settled on, people have sort of challenged it as being a little too flowery, not having enough substance. But I think from there from that definition, then we can talk about leadership in specific contexts and what leadership is needed, and how can we sort of foster the environment that makes that possible and can move us in a practical way. I didn't want to define leadership in a way that made it seem inaccessible to me that was a key part, I didn't want to define leadership that sort of suggested Well, some people can engage in leadership. But until you're one of those people, you're sort of on the outside. 

Austin Council  13:09  
Like, it's reserved for some kind of upper echelon tier. 

Eric Kaufman  13:12  
Yeah, yeah. This is a bit of an aside, but I've just in the last few weeks was thinking and part of it is because I've, I've done some surveys and things, you know, to gain input from people. And some of those are anonymous surveys. And I've even had the thought, gee, you know, someone can engage in this leadership process, even in responding to an anonymous survey. And I don't know if that's helpful for people or not. But you know, there's so often that people sort of blame others for the lack of leadership. And what I want people to think about is, how can all of us contribute leadership, instead of just assuming that the problem is those who are elected into a role or I can't actually until someone puts me into a position of power, it's not my fault, that there's not leadership. And I think no, if you start thinking of yourself as a leader, and you start thinking about that possibility of engaging in this leadership process, I think all of us benefit.

Austin Council  14:11  
Yeah. And I think people tend to think talking about power I think people tend to think, you know, when it comes to like national elections and things like that, that they kind of put all their eggs in that basket of like this national big level, but they fail to see how important local elections are and local community efforts and creating change in your neighborhood or your your school or the place that you work. Leadership seems to be advertises this like big huge thing. And I want students to kind of wrestle with the idea that it you know, it can be bad, but it's also, you know, very accessible, very relatable to you and the person that you're talking to right in front of you. So I want to shift gears a little bit to the leadership education piece. What do you think leadership education in a formal educational setting seeks to accomplish?

Eric Kaufman  14:58  
Well, I think part of that is drawing attention, you know, to those possibilities in leadership and drawing attention in a way that allows it to flourish. I think leadership can occur without leadership education. But I think it gives people a sense of what some possibilities are, and allows people to be more intentional in that process. Oftentimes, people that have had successful careers a successful life. Sometimes it's a little hard to know why, you know, lots of people write biographies, and you know, autobiographies, yet they they sometimes struggle to sort of understand, you know, what was it that allowed them to be successful, they'll offer some things, but leadership education starts to surface some sort of common structures and themes, you know, that we can sort of know what that is, and it can accelerate that process. You know, someone can be start thinking about how can they move in that space more quickly. I think there are aspects of it that that are about just sort of the education side, understanding it, but it's in the same way of understanding it so that you can appreciate it more. I've never been very good at athletics. 

Austin Council  16:07  
I'm with you on that one.

Eric Kaufman  16:09  
In eighth grade, I was on the basketball team, but a third string to set the bench. There are some things I did play golf in high school, but it was, you know, in high school, you didn't have to compete to make the team. You just had to express interest in show up. And so that's sort of the level that was there. I never played football, but I've come to really appreciate a college football in particular. So I've been in football schools. My undergraduate degree was in Ohio State graduate degree at the University of Florida and now Virginia Tech, big football powerhouses. Yeah, we've got three different conferences. I really enjoy that. Me learning more about football allows me to appreciate football more. And doing that doesn't actually make my teams better because I'm not on the field playing. But I can appreciate it more. So part of leadership education is a time Sort of appreciating, had a greater appreciation for coaches and the role that they play. I think in high school, my thought was Gio is just about, you know, whoever was sort of bigger and stronger, and you know, maybe faster they were the ones that won. And as I learned more, I've grown to appreciate sort of the nuances of that. And I think leadership education can serve the same purpose. Even if someone is never in a leadership role. Even if they never actually engage in leadership, they can't appreciate what makes it effective. That's that in itself is not so exciting. But I think it's important to recognize just because someone graduated from leadership education program, doesn't necessarily, you know, mean that they're going to be more effective in their leadership. But they might be able to appreciate they might be able to identify others who you know, are going to be effective in that they know what's necessary. The hope is that as we have more people that are familiar with that, we can foster that environment. So it doesn't feel like there's a leadership deficit, but instead, we've empowered a Lot of people just sort of CO create leadership in a way that otherwise might not have happened.

Austin Council  18:07  
I like how you mentioned creating the environment, I think that's a tremendous piece of learning leadership education is for the, you know, the professor and the students to have a really conducive environment to learn about themselves and how to relate to other people. It seems like leadership programs, I, you know, I did my PhD and one like you did, and it seems like they are becoming more and more popular nowadays. I remember talking to someone who didn't even know that you could get a higher education degree and leadership. And it seems like it's been, you know, kind of coming down the pipeline frequently in recent years. Why do you think it's kind of exploded in the past like 10 to 20 years?

Eric Kaufman  18:47  
Well, I think it's a variety of factors. You know, part of it is, you know, there was a period of time that it, you know, surfaced as a buzz word, you know, particularly in sort of for profit business that, you know, leadership was identified is really important. And so people that are trying to move into that space, you know, how can we? Well, people were were sort of attracted to classes or programs that might help them with that, you know, from a self centered standpoint as well. But I think there's aspects of that that have evolved over time. A lot of the early research on leadership really was more focused on identifying leaders, you know, this idea that if we just identify the right people, and we choose them to be our leaders, it solves everything. Right. As that evolved over time, they realized, hmm, we haven't really been able to pinpoint what are those traits that people have. It's not consistent traits. And so it's not consistent traits. There may be sort of a learned approach to it. And so then that started open up space and say, Okay, well, if it's a learned approach to leadership, and it's not just choosing the right people to be our leaders, then how do we go about learning that approach? I'm not saying that we've arrived And we've got it perfect. But I think that really did sort of spark some ideas and created this this opportunity for people to say, Okay, how might we do that? And colleges and universities have been one space that they've been able to sort of try that out, especially separate from sort of the the role specific things. We've been doing leadership training in sort of businesses for a while, as from a hierarchy perspective, how do we prepare you for this leadership role? That's sort of the next level up but in in higher education, we've been able to start open up some space and say, it's not about specific roles. There's broader things that we can be working on and doing. And so I think, you know, that's that sort of surface, in part because of this shift in this recognition that it's not about just identifying the right people. But there's actually a lot of opportunity if we think about sort of preparing, you know, a larger group of people for effectiveness and leadership

Austin Council  20:58  
in my conversations with students at I think one of the first things I do in class is have them draw a picture of what they think a leader is. And I remember there's been several instances where you will kind of go around and share and and I always will have some students that are very adamant on saying, you know, there's a picture of like a maybe a military leader or like the head of a wolf pack or something like that. And then they will explain their drawing by saying, well, that person or that whatever figure in the picture was a born leader, and that, you know, leaders are born not made. So how would you react to that, to that statement? I mean, similar to our conversation about introversion and extraversion, even though a lot of leadership programs are we're really trying to kind of unravel and deconstruct what leadership means. I think there is still a lot of messaging that says, leaders are born. So could you expand on with that?

Eric Kaufman  21:58  
So gee, we could go a lot different directions. I do think that's a reality that we, you know, we continue to have some of that idea that, you know, a leader is born, I think probably the biggest thing to keep in mind. One thing we know is that all leaders were born. Okay. So you're gonna call someone a leader? They were born. We know that to be true. Okay. How much of them being born with particular traits related to them being a leader is probably a bit more of a challenge or you know, where I might sort of question that. I do think there are aspects that make it more likely for someone to emerge as a leader. extraversion is one that we talked about, right? I believe I you know, I think of extraversion as a trait. You know, that's that sort of inborn. And that's going to result in leader emergence. We also continue to see things related to you know, physical characteristics, you know, height is something you know that if you're standing above the crowd, more people are going to notice you Yeah, that's gonna cause you to emerge as a leader, perhaps more than, you know, someone who's shorter, and you know, not going to be as noticed. That still doesn't relate to effectiveness. And I think also in the end, this is, you know, the fact that someone is identified as a leader, maybe creates opportunity for potential, but then we have to sort of think about, you know, how do they grow into that potential, right. And some people, they were identified as a leader, and very quickly, people realized that was a mistake. They didn't they didn't sort of fit what we were expecting. Other people have an option for sort of trial and error and to be successful. The other thing that I would highlight is I really think there's too much focus on the individuals in sort of this leadership equation, and instead recognizing action for the space between people. So in the last few weeks, I was thinking about sort of what sort of metaphors you know we might be able to think about this and Oreo cookie has been Successful since 1912, I think is when it's very, very successful Mike. Yeah. I think their latest slogan is it's milk's favorite cookie I think for a while it was America's favorite cookie but they're worldwide. Now. What makes the Oreo cookie successful it's a lot of different things. You know there's a lot of possibilities there but it has to do with a cream between the cookies. That is really where a lot of the emphasis lies. Okay, I think you know, the cook itself has a lot of value in there. But no one buys just the cookies. They do buy you know varying levels of cream, you can get sort of the standard, you can get double stuff, you can get mega stuff. There's different flavors of cream, you know, the things that go in there. You know, there's some people that they eat the Oreo cookie, just the cream, they just, you know, twist it apart and lick off the cream set aside the you know, the cookies, but you can't actually buy the cream by itself. You do need the cookies. If we have the cookies as sort of a leader follower relationship and the leadership is the cream. between them, we've got to have sort of solid cookies to work with. Or we don't really sort of have identifiable leaders and followers. I mean, there's cookies and cream ice cream, I mean, sort of the crumble sort of thing. But it's if we overemphasize the individuals, it's like having an Oreo cookie, that's just those cookie wafers and not have any cream between them. You also can't get an Oreo cookie, that's just one cookie, like just the leader with the cream on top. You have to have both. It's that space between people. That is really where the leadership occurs. I think we get caught up in the individuals. And if we would think more about that space between people and and what possibilities there are for leadership there. I think there would be a lot of value in that.

Austin Council  25:50  
I really like that illustration. And I like that the language you use with the space between people because if we really believe that it is a process then you You can't have one of those things without the other you need the leaders you need the followers you need. The environment that they're in the gold are working towards the vision, the hope all of those things. In my grad program, I did a lot of research and writing around humility and virtue and also narcissism. And it does feel like we do have a fascination with leaders and wanting to know more about well, what makes you know, the key ingredients into a good leader. And well look at all these leaders, you know, these larger than life figures, but we fail to see that process that space between you and others have seen and I don't know if you've seen the movie, Steve Jobs with Michael Fassbender, and there's a scene I use it in my class when I'm teaching about melody, but the scene is him and Steve Wozniak, the you know, the guy that helped found apple and Steve Jobs is on the stage and was niak is up and they're like prepping for a show or a conference or a display of some new technology and more Wozniak is up in the seat, and Steve Jobs. And I don't know how accurate if this really happened, or you know, they're just making it into a drama scene, but they are talking about this new product. And I don't think Steve Wozniak in the movie was getting credit for helping with this new product. And he said, Steve, just acknowledged that you weren't the only person in the room when we came up with this idea, acknowledged that there were others involved, and he essentially wouldn't do it. Like he said, "no, no." And Wozniak was like, "people live and die by your praise, just acknowledge that there was something other than you that did this." I just say that because it makes me think when you were talking about the focus on the individual, I do feel like we do that. There are great individuals that have moved mountains in the world and done wonderful things, but they there was a process there. Yeah, definitely.

Eric Kaufman  27:56  
I also think, for me, it's useful to recognize that work. differently for different people. I mean, there's Oreos are now in 100 different countries. And there's there's over 100 different flavors you can get green tea Oreos in, and I think Japan and China. And so recognizing sort of what works for different people in different spaces, I think is as relevant. I think we there is substance that we're sort of working with. But I think it varies and we have to be comfortable with some of the messiness and that space between and not make it so much on just an individual or even individuals but to say look, there's there's a there's a process, it's the space between It is really the leadership that that we're that we're wanting and is going to be effective and necessary.

Austin Council  28:46  
So thinking about leadership, education classes and leadership education programs, what do you think are some important things that need to be in place for students to learn about how to be effective leaders how to have effective leadership? What are some key ingredients there.

Eric Kaufman  29:01  
So a colleague at the University of Southern Maine, Dan Jenkins did some great research on signature pedagogies. And sort of what what would be the signature pedagogy? pedagogy is sort of the this teaching process, right? You know, we've got if you take a chemistry class, or if you're learning about chemistry lab is a signature pedagogy that you're going to have these sort of labs and have these experiments that you sort of work with and learn from, and for for leadership, it's discussion. And so if you're going to have an effective leadership education program, discussion is going to be a key ingredient with that. I do think it's important to sort of recognize different theories and approaches, some of that's going to evolve over time when we continue to learn. I mean, it's a relatively young field, and we could talk about ones that I think are particularly impactful and important, but I think regardless of the content, I think the opportunity for discussion, they relate to in that space between, it's not about having the perfect instructor. It's not about having the right sort of textbooks. It's about that discussion, because it's that space between that we can really sort of benefit from discussion can look different ways. I think, you know, people talk about case studies and so forth. But it's a matter of, you know, getting some of the right questions that encourage discussion. And I think that's what's going to be most effective for a leadership education program. 

Austin Council  30:28  
I think that's what sets it apart from other disciplines. I know there's this there's discussion and discourse and other disciplines too. But the most gratifying experiences I've had with my students when teaching leadership is in the discussion in the you know, the Socratic method, the just the process of talking through and wrestling with some of these things that we're talking about today and how these topics and things affect you know, students lives and how they how this thing plays out on on a daily basis. You know, we encounter leadership scenarios. We can encounter leadership in a zoom meeting or, you know, when we're going to Kroger for groceries, you know, so it's really important to talk about that having a leadership class would look really good on a resume. It would look good for an employer to see that what do you think employers have to gain from students who complete maybe a leadership minor or they have on their resume? You know, I took a class on leadership and social change or organizational leadership or business leadership, what do you think students have to gain from taking these classes? And what employers maybe gain as well?

Eric Kaufman  31:35  
Yeah, I think the, the experience can be very empowering for the student. And I think there's benefits for the employer that way. And it doesn't have to be just, you know, formal classes. I think I said in the past, one of the most impactful things, the leadership program a leadership development program does is actually identify participants and Select people into the program, because all of a sudden someone shifts in their mind into thinking of themselves as a leader and responsible for leadership in a way that they didn't before. And so an employer, generally they want someone who is going to be proactive, that's going to engage in problem solving, and not be just a passive participant. So I think the leadership education program in that experience, can help that individual sort of feel more empowered to engage in a problem solving process, to engage in that space of inspiring vision and hope and really be an optimistic force and what the potential of the organization can be and do, as opposed to just sort of passively fulfilling a role and waiting their time maybe for a promotion. But instead you have an engaged workforce, then that engaged workforce, if you look at the research, there's a lot of benefits that employers have when it Employees are feeling more engaged and empowered, as opposed to sort of being disengaged and sort of doing just the minimum or even at times pushing against creating more of a toxic environment. And the hope is that, you know, the students who complete the leadership education coursework and program that they're taking that to not only recognize the potential, but they themselves are actually taking on some responsibility for helping to fulfill that potential and allowing leadership to flourish in the organization.

Austin Council  33:30  
I like the personal responsibility thing. I think that's really important thing to say. Because if you are empowered in a leadership program that you understand you understand these concepts and you've gone through the discussions and and now you have a responsibility in whatever job you have, or if you're, you know, still at Virginia Tech and you're in a club or a student organization or working on campus, or you're mentoring someone these tools, this new knowledge you have you have a responsibility to carry out to create that flourishing. Like you mentioned. So final question. We're in a crazy time, we're in a very ambiguous, just volatile, really difficult time. What advice do you have for students who are about to go back to school in the fall and are taking leadership classes? general advice you have for moving forward right now?

Eric Kaufman  34:23  
Yeah, that's hard. I, I know that I've got the perfect advice. I wish I had the right formula. I do think trying to remain optimistic, I think is really helpful because it forces us to look for possibilities. You know, I've felt anxiety struggled with sort of, you know, how to keep keep looking at things in a way that, you know, surfaces possibilities, and I think trying to be optimistic about that is helpful. I think also not putting too much pressure on ourselves. I tend to be a little bit of a perfectionist and when we don't have all the information that we want, I mean, there's so much uncertainty about the future. No one has All the information they would like to have to make decisions or move forward. Also sort of creating this space to recognize, look, we're not going to be perfect. There is an aspect of good enough. And even if we think about it, you know, different perspectives, the good enough, in some cases really seems you're failing much of the time, but that's okay. If we look at sort of a baseball analogy, the best baseball players, the ones who in the major leagues getting paid the most money, their batting average, you think, how often are they successful, and they go up to bat 30% of the time, 70% of the time, they're not getting a hit. And that's, and that's when they go up to bed. That's not even at the number of pitches, if you think okay, how many you know, what percent of time it actually actually hit a pitch and say, Well, okay, well, some of those are balls. Okay, well, let's do they're still probably like 15% of strikes that are thrown at them, do they actually hit and that's a hit. To get on base, that's not a home run. And these are the people that are being paid, sometimes millions of dollars. So we put pressure on ourselves to have the right answer all the time. And I think we have to recognize, no, we don't have to be perfect. We do have to, you know, do what we can to be successful. But we don't want to be paralyzed, and not sort of show up and do our part. Because we don't know we're not sure how we're going to be successful. I think you show up at the plate, you do your best, you don't have to swing every pitch, but you do have to, you know, make good attempts to be successful. And to recognize that sometimes you won't be and that's okay.

Austin Council  36:38  
Yeah, I appreciate the when you talking about perfectionism, I identify with that as well. And I do think pushing yourself to be perfect and perfectionist in certain areas is a paralyzing process because you're crippled with the fear of failure. But we know from your analogy and other writings and research around leadership that accepting difficulty and failure is actually very beneficial in the longer journey of developing, you know, effective leadership and influencing others. So, well thank you for your advice. And thank you for our conversation today.

Eric Kaufman  37:14  
Oh, glad to I appreciate you holding the podcast and the space for the conversation. 


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