alright, we're recording and just so you know any
anything it's totally safe environment so if you say something
and go get use that right, we will use
it um and you can solve the wreck or anything
like that just just say so. Okay. Okay
. Okay. Okay. Okay. Very good.
So this is kind of fun for me because a
lot of people have interviewed, I've known for a
long time or known at least for a while and
I don't know you very well so um they know
the answer is I mean it's quite uh so what
when did you come Came here in early to mid
70s, but I came here as a student.
Right, So that's when you came here and um
Spring of 67 as a student. Yeah. So
Talk to me about summer of 67 that spring.
Okay. So you came here as an undergrad as
an underground trip. Okay. So what brought you
, what brought you to take? Um I had
been interested in architecture from an early age, but
I as young people do they find out about different
career choices. And I rode away to the area
and received a brochure and in the brochure it said
this field is not recommended for women, wow.
So I thought, well, Mhm. What?
So I didn't think too much about that, except
it wasn't. So I thought, well I had
been directed in this way because enjoying mathematics and enjoying
art, you know, so you're directed and I've
studied frank Lloyd wright. But anyway, so I
just looked in another direction and I went I started
in a school in ST louis actually Columbia Missouri and
then I thought that wasn't quite a fit and then
came here in the summer program, not as an
official student but as a summer student. So you
actually chose tech basically be right back. Okay.
So um it's my fault. That is so you
can protect not because you were in Virginia and it
just worked out, but because of the reputation of
the school, oh, person who knew our family
knew of the summer program. And so Donna might
be interested in this. And so just tried it
. I was thinking to go to another institution actually
in the fall, but after the summer program and
I thought this could be a way and I'd forgotten
this business about not recommended for women, Although there
were a few women in my group, it didn't
seem to be an issue as far as I was
concerned. And you've been teaching the summer studio.
We teach. I've taught in the summer school.
Yeah. In the first year and second year and
some of the upper I've taught mainly across the board
. But because you came here in this, I'm
just curious to that, Was that something that,
that was exciting for you to think about, you
know, teaching in the summer. Uh, it's
a different pace, so it's totally different. It's
exciting both ways. I don't make a distinction.
Yeah. So you're here as a student and then
you graduated in, stay on the teacher. Did
you go work and then come back, graduated and
went to Denver colorado to practice and practice there for
a number of years and then came back here to
work on a masters without particular notion about teaching.
Just that there might be some teaching along with that
work. And one thing followed another and here I
am. That's interesting because that seems to be a
number of people came here for masters. So is
it different where you expected to teach as a graduate
student? I had a teaching assistantship. So I
yanked out with fourth year group. I got to
know with students of course. So when did you
involve me in? Is that part of the,
did you guys meet here? We met here,
We met here students. Yeah. Time to meet
a lot of different people from all over. So
that's where we met. You can see people producing
work and that's always informative to see how they work
and what they do in a given situation. Okay
. Um, well, so this is the focus
of the film is really on, it's gonna broken
into three parts. The way I see it,
this sort of pre Bircher Ferrari days, sort of
the inception of coming out of the School of Engineering
and becoming its own school, then sort of that
hey day, it seems to me of Berkshire Ferrari
and that whole game, which your party, you
can certainly speak to that and then, okay,
post that period, the current thing. Um,
so what can you tell me about the, I
guess what I'm particularly interested in is how the educational
model here was so different and so sort of almost
maybe not revolutionary, but yeah, it was,
it was a different way of teaching architecture and it
seems like a really exciting time to, uh,
it was an exciting time. It is an exciting
time presently. That's where the, no looking forward
and looking back at a certain point, they're almost
the same. You know, there's this present that
keeps on moving. Um, and you're immersed in
something and it's exciting and it keeps on going and
that's what you realize, find like keeps on going
and, and you keep on going with it because
you find out more and more and I think that's
how it was, how it is now. So
do you see at least maybe compared to other schools
that what was happening here was special was different than
other? I can't say that because I was familiar
with a few other programs, but I didn't look
at programs and then decided to come here. I
was in a totally different field and switched into architecture
now as I visit schools a lot and I can
see there are some differences. So do you think
that so my understanding talking, doing these interviews is
that this school was just sort of a typical coming
out of engineering kind of a program. And then
then the merchant came and Yeah, yeah. Uh
T marshall on President on, I told him do
whatever you need to do. I want to top
architecture probably. He he had launched to do whatever
he wanted to do. And then he brought Ferrari
, Ferrari brought in people that he brought in encouraging
people like that we're here. Um and it,
from what I've heard is they really just, you
know, well, Ferrari taking the sort of bauhaus
, uh huh model, uh huh And it just
it seems like that was that was the found the
formation of what the school was now. So,
I guess what I'd like for the film is sort
of an idea of how that legacy continues and how
, you know, the school is, I guess
maybe if you can talk to some of those ideas
that may be different from, from either traditional study
of architecture that we are using, those kinds of
models. Well, I think 11 difference that you
might say, um although one similarity to start out
with the similarity, I think in all schools,
the faculty are always questioning what's going on to some
extent and they're questioning even if they repeat uh huh
of course, or a syllabus, they might do
that. I think the questions still arise. I
think the questions here arose and were expected to be
there always as a part of what was going on
. Questions of the curriculum. Questions of the nature
of the school on a day to day basis.
I think this was a large question. What's the
school on a day to day basis? The legacy
of the bauhaus? Some people will say this is
about how school? Well, not exactly. Or
is it an old school? No, not exactly
. But I think what is carried over from those
places, those places were trying to define themselves in
their time and that's what's persistent here. This place
is trying to find itself in its time and say
what an architect designer needs to know, what do
they need to know and how are they in that
world and when do they graduate into the room?
And that time hopefully is before graduation, Although for
some it's after graduation, maybe they come to understand
what is here after they graduate rather than before.
So I think that's the excitement of the place to
see that graduation occur prior to the, The schematics
of when you graduate in five or 4 years,
depending on a design or architecture program. So it
sounds like what you're saying is it's the school itself
is constantly, is constantly changing and re asking that
question of what, what, what should we be
now, what do we need to be now?
I think it's persistently active and of course, there
with different individuals, there comes this another possibility,
another set of possibilities. But I think we're always
interested or curious what the situation is now. You
don't give away the past necessarily, but you don't
give away the future. That's great. Yeah,
But we do still have. And uh one of
the things that I I just I didn't know anything
about architecture when I came here when I was 18
, and one of the things that I immediately just
fell in love with it was so excited by was
finding out that there is this multi disciplinary approach where
I didn't I didn't know much about film before I
came to architecture. My love of film came out
of architecture. I to me that maybe it's not
unique here, but that was something that was so
special that I found when I was here was just
, you know, whether it's weaving or film or
carpentry or you know, there's pottery, there are
all these things that that you haven't healed. Remember
, talk to my mom on the phone and tell
you what she's like, What does that have to
do with architecture? It's like, that's the thing
, that's the thing to find out the kind of
person that you want to be to find out the
direction or, or the kind of person you are
, are you a good person? Are you a
paper person or you film person and then to remain
open? Hopefully to be challenged by the thought of
this other person. It could be. So you
think that's the idea behind the I just, I'd
love to hear you talk to wait to that approach
. And what do you think that does for a
student? Well, it's a it's a, it's
a world, it's a place certainly. And I
think if you want to draw distinctions among schools,
it's the school that can remain vital No. over
a 24 hour cycle and what that 24 hour cycle
is now, Most schools find themselves in the home
of the university and the university has its, its
pace and what it does, but it's always important
to develop beyond that and to see what is the
life of the school and is the life beyond a
given class. We expect our students to know each
other to know all the faculties and all the faculty
or their facts. This is a difficult idea for
a student to grasp, hold off. And how
do you, how do you foster that as a
possibility? Because it's unfortunate if you have all these
faculty and the students don't have the possibility to take
advantage of, not that they have to take a
course and it hopefully becomes a habit or curiosity about
the rest of the university, that you don't have
to have a course with the faculty to get to
know them and get to know what they know.
How do you foster, Well, I think this
building, in a sense, we've been very fortunate
that the building is an open building and you probably
show images. There really aren't walls. So it's
possible to Make note of something that's five ft away
or 50 ft away or 75 ft away or one
floor down. And I think it's, it's more
of a habit of the faculty to engage the whole
of the enterprise, not simply be bounded by a
glass and every, I think everyone's always encouraged to
leave things out things up on the laws and leave
on every desk. You see, you see a
life at work. Yeah. And that's an advantage
. Even even today with all the digital technology,
all of our students, each one has a desk
and you see the life that's there and then it's
exciting because it's the thing you really want to have
happen where one student has the opportunity to get to
know another student because they are thinking in the same
pathways but may not realize that each other exists stuff
. It's possible to let them get to know another
person or another way of work and also the students
helping students, there's certain things that, you know
, you just, I think you take for granted
I did before I left here, one of them
is the 24 hour built Cooper Union shutdown at one
a.m. you were kicked out and I just couldn't fathom
that we used to stay here until you stay here
all night working. Uh huh. There's things like
that that I think just make this school exactly what
you're talking. Yeah, there's something going on all
the time. That's where it's challenging, particularly in
the studio because the building is filled and that lobby
in particular on a daily basis is filled with things
that can be part of the conversation. And I
think that's really what we try to do here is
to construct a conversation at the end of the day
. What was the conversation like today? Do you
see any difference over the years with? I think
one of the interesting things now for me being a
little bit older is seeing how and I think we
all wax nostalgic our time. Everybody is so into
the computer and so into their devices. It seems
like it would be much, it seems like it
would be harder to foster that. Would you that
openness, that environment you're talking. Is that do
you find that or is it not the game?
No, not so much. Um Uh huh Maybe
it will grow that way. But I think we'll
work with that. I think the computer, the
digital world is simply another media. The dark room
was the media. Is the media. We still
have an operational darker shop is loaded with media.
We have a pottery and a printmaking studio. So
it's more to see that as the possibility of an
evolving practice certainly. But to also see it in
the instance of it being a media. So when
is the media necessary? When can a print from
the print lab challenge A three dimensional model or when
can it challenge a cab driver? It's an easy
it's an easy challenge actually. Uh huh. But
to illuminate that possibility for the students so that they
realize they're the media world is wide open and digital
. It has encompassed certain schools. Certainly there are
paperless studios. That's that's a possibility. But we
would like our students to have the possibility to know
more things. It's exciting to see when people do
. Do you know, I think embrace both things
. Like I sat next to Maria lash and it
was wonderful to see him doing things that he was
doing in the computer. But then also he had
his prints and he had things that he was doing
outside. He I really enjoyed watching him work and
seeing how he sort of okay can embrace all of
it and use all of it because sometimes maybe there's
more architecture in the Prince than and in the architectural
project and the Prince need to challenge the project and
a student can get a grasp of it more directly
because they are building those things. Now. This
is I'm going to ask you this because the answers
I've gotten to this question of, it's so fascinating
and very different. Um where do you see the
role of architecture education in terms of preparing somebody for
practice? Do you think that that is something that
if somebody lives here unprepared for practice, then then
that's a bad thing or is that irrelevant? Has
nothing to do with? I'm sure you get all
kinds of answers to that question. You can't be
irrelevant, but in a certain way, the architect
needs to be larger than the world of practice.
So how do you get to that place? Uh
it seems it has seemed in different periods of time
. Clearly the students leaving in a way where larger
could offer the practices more? Not less, wow
. And that's exciting when that happens, when the
practices see that, and we have that happening even
today, where there will be a practice, there
will be an office that realizes the students can bring
something to the office that that office has a hard
time to achieve on its own. So I would
say the students are always ready. It's it's whether
the practice is open to receive what the students have
to offer, man, I think that's that aspect
of the answer has been consistent. I think that
that when you got a practice that has is open
to it, you know, the best possible outcome
is students come out and push practice. Mm But
but I think our students have shown great success where
they enter typical practices and have significant impacts. I
spoke to Ray caliber a while back, I interviewed
her for for practice and he had wonderful things to
say. Yeah. And I think, you know
, when you see that somebody who who comes out
, I mean he's obviously an incredibly hard work but
just, you know, rises to level so quickly
in a firm like like palm springs Key Jackson.
To me, that's just I think that says a
lot. He credits the school endlessly for preparing.
No, well, if you have more dimensions,
it perhaps it's not a guarantee, but perhaps it
paves the way for more opportunity. You have more
alternatives that sometimes helpful to have more alternative. Yeah
. So I'm I would like to turn if you're
willing or you can think of any just some stories
that you have uh stories. You know, whether
they're stories about uh yeah, Olivia or lucy or
you and bob anything that you want to share that
you think might be a story. Mhm. No
, not really stories. I mean, I have
stories, but not really. No. There there
are so many stories, it's hard to identify the
story actually, whether it's student, each student is
a story that's um each student has their own story
. And when you have the opportunity to be in
a school where it's possible to look beyond and through
where you're teaching at that particular moment, you have
the opportunity to know that student through their whole time
here and that is significant. I would say there
are so many stories, it's hard to choose one
or two. It's uh this is the side of
it, is that your favorite thing about teaching?
It seems to me like to see what the students
do. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing what
they do. I'm constantly surprised. Well, if
you think it almost couldn't get better, if you
think so, you have 20 students in a given
lab and you're working on one kind of thing or
another, they veer off and it doesn't matter.
But just to have that much creative activity and questioning
and not not every student is running on all cylinders
. This is part of it so that they can
get to the point where their curiosity takes care of
them that they don't need to rely on us.
But anyway to have 20 students all working on things
, it's amazing to see how they progress. Let's
see what they do converse with them. Are you
always trying to um encourage economy? Innocent for?
Oh no, no. The students work separately.
They work together. Uh huh. I think they're
very empathetic. Although not in all cases there are
individuals that are by themselves and but there's an empathy
oftentimes for those students to remain autonomous. Yeah,
respect of the so there's a full range I guess
what I meant is in terms of uh, your
role in their work. Are you pushing for a
sort of self directed discovery? Are you, is
that I know that's not always possible. I'm just
curious if that's if that's something that's exciting for you
and that. Well, what's exciting that they start
to realize what it takes to have a discovery?
You can have discoveries by accident, which that's okay
of and you can have discovery, can't order up
a discovery, You can have a discovery that occurs
because the ground has been prepared and you have been
diligent in that preparation. They've been diligent in that
preparation and together you you can talk about situations both
in their projects, but that's where having the whole
of the school to draw upon to show them what
can happen a discovery elsewhere. They oftentimes see their
own work better through the work of another student or
an instance in the world, then they understand.
Yeah. Okay, well, quite happy with,
I guess you've already kind of spoken to this,
but I where do you see the school in the
future? Do you think it's just this constant reinvention
? And it's impossible to say because it'll be what
it needs severe. I think it's it's important for
to keep the conversation going. Oh, that's not
so easy to do. Uh huh. You need
to kind of have a full commitment that this proceeds
. It's very easy for these things to decline.
Uh huh. Little things can cause it to decline
. So it takes a group of people who are
interested. Two have a place where curiosity, Oh
, curiosity is alive and well, right. So
, yeah, ask your migration. So when,
when you have, because clearly there's been this history
with the school of hiring people who went to the
school. And I think for a continuity of education
, I think that makes perfect sense. Um,
for for that there's a lot of new hires and
there's a lot of change over. How do you
, how do you do that? How do you
maintain that you're speaking to? Because it seems to
me like that has to come from faculty obviously.
And well, a conversation, you know, it
always takes too. So part of the conversation is
listening. I don't think a conversation works if one
is telling another one. Right? So it's,
uh, curiosity, curiosity is a two way street
. You need to maintain a curious, curious stance
according to what's going on and what that new person
knows whether they are here or coming from some other
place. So that's part of that constant evolution of
the uh huh because I think, uh, oh
, recently we've had, well, we have a
lot of new people here and they have not had
prior connections, but that happens quite frequently that we
have people coming. And you know what, what
transpires, what they bring to the table, what
we bring to the table. Yeah. Okay.
Anything else you want to? No, you did
. Great. Thank you so much. Okay.
Okay, Good.