we are recording. All right. So, um
, tell me your relationship to the to the college
of Okay, I I had gone to school.
Yeah. Corcoran Art School of Art University in the
in university. Then I studied with all subside.
Keen in Paris for a year. Met my wife
on the way to Paris On the boat on the
way of Yeah. So we we caught it.
We didn't live together. We caught it in Paris
. And so then, uh, proposed or in
Paris Anyway, she accepted. So But she said
we can't get married until you have a job.
My father would not approve of me. Married somebody
without a job. So I started writing, setting
off those days that gobs and gobs of schools because
I knew it had to teach in a college anyway
, So we, uh, I was actually offered
a job in New Hampshire, but she didn't want
to live in New England. She did. She's
a southern, and she just didn't think she'd like
living in New England, which I'll be lovely to
live, but she did. So I was offered
this job here at Okay. We call it V
P. R. At that Virginia Polytechnic Institute.
And so I got the job and came down here
. We stayed, and every time I would get
nibbles to go other places I had a father in
law said, Oh, Dean, you don't want
to move He said, This campus is so beautiful
. He said, I just loved it. Now
that's the father in law persuaded me not to leave
Blacksburg. So I never did take any of the
job office I had outside of Blacksburg. So we
stayed here. I thought we had 42 years,
and I was brought here to teach sculpture to architects
. I was the first person to teach sculpture tech
. I'm using tech. Thank you, everybody and
so. And my My first boss loved our click
Kogel alcohol is named for clinical anyway, and we
just got along nicely, you know? And he
can, uh, he had me teaching everything on
earth. I mean, I taught art history,
and I talked basic design and architecture. He was
really trying to turn into an arc tape. I
wouldn't turn so and I thought drawing you name it
. And so then, uh, then we got
another department head. Who was Lynn Curry and Lynn
just loved art. He would have loved being a
painter. He loved art. So he pushed.
I was doing all getting all these art courses going
because people around the campus that want special art courses
for their students, a lot of people home economics
and whatever anyway, so I would create these and
you courses and had no problem in getting them through
because Lynn Curry just loved all the new articles is
being offered, and at one time, Lynn was
out of town or something. I know somebody was
temporarily running the pop, and I won't use names
, but he said, We'll just call everything architecture
. We don't own art in the catalog. So
Lynn came in just at that time this got He
said, We are going to have art in the
catalog. We're not gonna name articles, his architecture
. So that saved art at that point was art
Art was under the umbrella. Art was just that
art was taught in architecture. There were four of
us that thought are all the architects that have joy
, basic draw a year of drawing and then they
took water color and they you know they the early
on the department here that the architectural heads thought it
was important that they have art. And that was
written in the crapper. Anyway, Uh, Lynn
Curry left. I went to Chicago and let's say
you should never left. But he he was trying
to get moved too fast. As soon as he
left, we became a college of architecture because he
had pushed. Leonard pushed it that way. The
department that way. And then he recommend Charles Purchase
. Coming Charles Perch. It was a very fine
dean, but all for architecture, just and he
was, uh, he was a delightful person anyway
, he and so we had all these guys.
I built this curriculum and I said, Well,
let's give a degree in art. Well, he
didn't want to give it in architecture. I had
to give it in the arts and sciences, So
it really meant a lot stiffer course with the kids
because the students, because they had to take all
these basic arts and science courses that they would not
have to take if we'd had it in architecture anyway
. So that's when there was moved, and for
a while I was under I was under two deans
in architecture and also in arts and Sciences. And
then and then I guess he really did want art
and architecture. And so they found some more space
over and coins dining hall underneath, and at one
point he thought he abused that for basic design.
But then he said no. He would take the
R studios in Cobo Hall for basic design and put
me in my program over and Owens, which we
did. At that point, I moved into arts
and Sciences. The problem when into our sense.
And we we kept we did very well in arts
and sciences as an art department, and it's so
interesting that when they broke up arts and Sciences,
that fact and I was no longer teaching. I
retired in 92 but anyway, they voted to go
into uh huh back into architecture, and Jack had
given him the invitation. And so I was real
pleased. A lot of people think I had something
to do with that, didn't but I'm glad to
take the other because I was just thrilled that they
went back into architects because I think it's a good
a combination. Yeah, I agree. And I
think I guess this will be my next question.
It seems from the research that I've done and talking
to people, that when Burchard came in and he
brought in Ferrari and they really changed the program,
that the focus on things like drawing, being,
being part of the curriculum went away and just sort
of That's there. If you want it, you
should seek it. But it was, and that
seems like maybe well, he, Charles Birch had
actually wanted me to create art at the junior level
and just have art to be available. Well,
I didn't feel like that was any kind of a
program, so let's really kept them. I got
all trouble getting a real program. A real degree
started, and I just wanted to keep it and
that we have a the school arts under Architects for
Salads Group. Yeah, I think that it makes
sense. I talked to Ray Cats as well about
this, and, uh, he did a lot
for the department. He raised her unusual person,
I'll tell you, but he really did a lot
for the park. He did a lot of people
, outstanding artists and stuff. And when when we
had programs, he would bring in some of these
people. And so he really a lot of other
people just wasn't interested in teaching their classes and doing
their own work and not not push the problem,
right? It a lot to push the program.
And it seems like he's, um, seems like
he would have fit in with that idea. Those
ideas that were brought in by virtue or Ferrari seems
like he would have been a good partner to that
. But one thing he did say that I definitely
felt going through the program was that there was no
what I think what ended up happening, especially when
it moved out. Architecture was that it just became
prohibitive for architecture students to study art, which is
so seemingly so, Yeah, which was really wrong
. But it happened. And, uh, let's
see, where are we? Um, Well,
tell me about So you were hired under under Kogel
. Tell me about that. Well, it was
a very formal department at that time, All right
? There were, You know, it was there
were four people in mechanical equipment for people in design
for four people in our you know, it was
a very And then, uh, they had building
heat also introduced building instructions. But I only had
one person for years in building construction that was built
Favreau and he just loved it. He loved his
build construction program. And but then Birch it brought
in a friend of his into building instruction which upset
fibre because fibre really didn't have anything to do.
You don't really have to know all this. It's
all interesting. I warn everybody that we're doing probably
a 30 to 40 minute film, and I'm interviewing
probably 20 people. So, you know, a
couple of minutes, you'll get a pop. Maria
. Yeah, exactly. But it's for me.
It's fascinating. I mean, I've done so much
and it's been it's, you know, it's funny
. I find that, you know, life just
sort of seems to give you what you need when
you need it. And I got really a lot
of support for art during my career, which was
wonderful. You know, you still have I had
to fight for certain things, but you still got
from people from, you know, like our new
people. And they were very supportive and the dean
of home economics, Lara Harper, at one point
really saved our programs. We had a big meeting
about our court system. She told the president right
at lad. And no uncertain terms. She needed
art for her students and that we had a good
program going in. No way it should be done
away with. But it was nice to have champions
because I feel like a missioner being here in a
again engineering school when I had been in, you
know, little arts now, did you Did you
find that? I guess that's a really good point
. And I hadn't really thought about so were you
surprised? I mean, tell me about being hired
. Well, as an artist under architecture. Well
, Mr Kogel, Clint Kabul loved our. So
it was He was really supportive. So in and
I had to make a living. So that was
the main reason I was here. Was that like
, 11? Because I wanted to marry my wife
, didn't marry and and then we and and Blacksburg
is a lovely town for Children. Are kids just
got they had good schools and, uh, met
bright people, you know, and it's and kind
of he thought sculpture should be taught to architects.
Yeah, but it was, you know, and
then Lynn Curries, I said, was real supportive
of army. He just loved the fact that we
have the art program and Charles person. Never.
I mean, I like Charles Burton, but he
didn't want he didn't want the He wanted to have
a bar house, school. He did more traditional
school. Yeah, and that's what they got,
right? I mean, that's really what I mean
. And it seems like now things are kind of
coming maybe a little bit full circle, I think
so. I think it's getting a little more formal
again, which I think at the college level is
good. And, uh but But I did like
Charles Burns. It's like, you know, I
didn't he he was an enemy by enemy. And
but that's what happened. So that's life. Tell
me about how you feel about that interdisciplinary approach to
architecture that the importance of sculpture and drawing I'm curious
to hear. Oh, uh, uh huh.
So many architects are knew personally that we're still we're
a bid here. Take like the paint like they
are like to do so I mean, but,
uh, to me, like a friend of mine
called the other day John Taylor Call me and cut
. He gave me a little piece of sculpture and
heat. He was an Arctic, but he'd love
sculpture and this call to them looked a lot like
that. And he called Riesling and was just so
complimentary. And he's kept. He's had an architectural
practice, but he's kept doing sculpture and he's teaching
sculpture in the community college and that we'll see.
I mean, it means that I really hadn't influenced
. Well, let's talk about that. You started
talking about that before we started filming, and I'm
very interested in that. Tell me about teaching.
I mean, it would have rewarding, you know
? Well, at the time I started, I
was There were a lot of X g is here
, So a lot of us, some of our
students were a year older than I was. And
that was interesting because, you know, I was
only 28 when I started teaching here, and I
had a lot of students that were a little older
when I first came here and they were just great
, you know? And they have been in the
service and I've been in the service, you know
? And so we had a really, you know
, in fact, went by Squires Hall when I
was first here and I heard the thing I like
. I like dancing. My wife likes dancing,
and I heard that they invited faculty to these dances
they had. So I went up to this German
desk and Squires Hall. I said, You know
, I'd like you to invite me towards one of
your dances or some of your dances, and this
young man said, Well, we can't have all
freshmen. We can invite all freshmen to our dancers
. That's what I'm teaching, but also looked young
. I was blonde. Yeah, and slide.
You know, that makes you look young. Opinion
28 young to be. It's funny, I think
. I think you know, like what? You
know what my grandfather did by 28 inches? You
know what, people? It's a different different mindset
, right? 28 was You were You were an
adult. You're right. Well, you don't have
. You know, I've had a lot of education
and three years in the army in C B,
I and Indian China, which I love being an
Indian and loving and China and wonderful. I would
think as an artist for yeah, I just But
I didn't like being in the Army. I mean
, that's like being a slave. I mean,
you have. No, I mean, you're not
. I mean, yeah, yeah. No,
I I I respect. I respect people deserve a
great deal, but I can't imagine, you know
, But I like I like the cadet corps.
I like the cadets. And because I had when
I first came here, all of the students work
. It is. And, uh, except for
those GS had come back and and always, And
then, you know, they were nice and polite
and very good. Dude, I mean, just
very, very never miss clients, you know?
I mean, uh, and it was almost an
old boy's school when I came here, But where
some girls always an architecture, there were some girls
. One of the things I'm curious about since I
think, you know, you're uniquely uniquely in a
position to talk about really a nice span of time
, the through the through the program and you've already
touched on some of these things But I'm really curious
how, through your eyes how you view the the
changes over the years through the program through art and
architecture. Well, like even though the program changed
, I could tell you to have friends who architects
. So, uh, you know, and we
would have some good architects that came into our to
take art. Oh, they're all so we still
had We were still in touch with architectural students,
which was nice, but do you feel like the
the the inclusion of art in the curriculum produce better
architects? I mean, are you willing to say
something like that? Or how do you How do
you view that? I thought, well, the
in and teaching art when you had architectural students,
you didn't have to inspire them. Our temple students
had this real nice design since so that just made
wonderful art students because you didn't have to teach them
, designed you to stop them. Whatever it was
, you know, sculpture. And but you didn't
have to, uh, pump ideas into them at
all. I mean, architects, basically a very
idea ridden. They can't happen. I mean,
they just full of ideas, and so, you
know, I mean, I've always I've always had
a finest. And of course, I had out
there in the world. Kids and students. I
taught that we're architects, and a lot of them
got me commissions. That's what things. It's just
been wonderful relationship. Yeah, and And my very
best friends are architects. Yeah, well, I
know. I mean, I can tell you Go
ahead. No, that's I was gonna say,
from from people I've spoken to and things I've read
sculpture in particular for architects is a big thing.
I think. You know, what I've heard is
that what is three dimensional and its buildings or three
dimensional or should be there. And they always talked
about an architect of all time, but architects being
paper architects or or real architects. And yeah,
I think you know, I think a lot of
architects who just know about elevations and that's all that
I mean, they can, but a real good
architects next three dimensionally like, you know, like
, that beautiful thing that Frank all right, did
the museum in New York. It's just I mean
, that's just a gym Google, huh? Yeah
. Well, I think that's really right. I
mean, I think that it's interesting, too,
because I think that's come full circle. I was
talking to two the guy who runs a firm in
Maine, and he said that they've had a lot
of trouble getting hiring people who can think three dementia
. But he said he sees that sort of the
newer hires. The younger people seem to be able
to do it again. And so it's interesting how
that seems to be well, at one time.
Even here, Technic almost quit doing models, and
then it came back, fortunately and right, you
know it began to have, because without model building
, you can't see the three dimensional. They're just
drawings. And they were all flat. Pretty much
, yeah, yeah, I think there's still a
lot of that. So how about this, Um
, can you since you've known all these people,
are there any real personalities that really stand out?
Anybody that you just got a big kick out of
or people you found really fascinating cold? There's been
so many that yes, it's like, say,
who's your favorite artist? People ask me who's my
favorite, who's You can't do that because I just
uh oh, I've had over the years, I
had so many good students, both in art and
architecture. I mean, just just excellent students and
what I really enjoy. I enjoyed the students.
All my life has to do I enjoy have a
young man that works for me. Now, as
in building construction, Well, he's just a gym
, just, you know, Uh huh. I
like young people and, uh, young people who
will work. I don't like lazy young people,
but in general, we didn't have lazy students in
architecture. You're not a few, but not many
, cause it just doesn't work. They've got to
produce, so they can't do it. Yeah.
Yeah, I think I learned that in film school
, this idea that, you know, somehow you're
going to be inspired, and it's just going to
come out and yeah, you got to put in
the hours. Well, I'm trying to think of
anything else. You know, I guess the main
thing that I'm really interested in Is this those earlier
years where that you were really helping to create the
program. Ah, so maybe can you talk a
little bit about your collaboration with with COBOL and your
collaboration with Curry to sort of help shape. Well
, then I think about, you know, there
are other department heads they want certain courses for.
I can't begin to tell you all the things I
had to teach. I mean, it's unreal.
Uh, like I had to create an industrial design
course and for one of the great ones and Mm
. And that was fun to do because I had
always I loved all those, you know, the
Raymond Loewy period and that kind of thing. And
I had grown up with that, and I grew
up in Washington, D. C. So I
had a cosmopolitan life. I mean, and teachers
I had We're just wonderful because they had been uh
huh. In all these various things. So I
really I was you know, I came up When
you in sculpture, we're supposed to do everything in
sculpture. So you did clay sculpture by some sculpture
card. Well, you know, you had to
do everything. And now people specialized. You know
, the big thing there is no How about someone
? So I just I only do this only,
but I didn't come up that way, which was
really lucky for me because I could do some of
these other courses and enjoy them. Like, you
know, you're still you're still sculpting. Still sculpts
piddling. But I love it. Go to my
studio every day and just do a little something Feed
my cats And like that, I love this country
. I have 60 acres down in Valladolid. Wow
, It's a beautiful piece of property. Yeah,
well, one thing that's become very clear to me
, they're all the people I've interviewed over the years
, and people I've spoken to is Children very important
in life having something that you absolutely love to do
. Oh, I feel blessed that because, you
know, I know so many people when they were
tired. When they have to get out of that
job, they don't have anything to do. But
that creates activity. We've got an artist or even
Arthur. You're just an artist forever. I mean
, you can to think about it. It's just
our Did you say anything about the C. CAC
for the people who came right? Well, what
about it? We we we belong, uh,
aren't part belong to Southeastern College Heart Conference and we
gave we actually hosted that at one point and no
, you know, on this. And they came
to the campus. And often these people tell me
it's the best conference we ever had. And now
we could go to cities for the most part because
I was one of the ones that said, I'm
a past president of C. K. I said
, you know, I'm in the account in the
country, and I think we ought to have these
meetings in in a city. So you see,
museums, the real art and not just campus are
, you know, And so we started going more
to cities. Fuck. A big Don't know anything
about the Francis Collection. That was That was broken
. I mean, they end up going bankrupt,
but it was a bit, but who came?
Fine. Came Clement Greenberg was here. No.
Well, Ray cast had a lot to do with
that conference. It had a lot to bringing people
in. And that's one reason was such a class
. What the hell was close here? I don't
think so. You know, who are the two
or three artists that came that did have national?
Uh, Adam, that's antique. I mean,
that's all right. Today, Ray can tell you
a lot. Yeah. You better be careful.
I can tell you. Mhm. Yeah, when
I'm off camera, I'll tell you a story.
Okay. Uh, so are you. So Yeah
, so you never You never preferred a medium for
sculpture. You sort of kept. Well, I've
always done a little bit of remember things. You
can look around this out of the sea. Uh
, I love carving. I like carving. And
I, President Fraser was in the art department,
and he got me to do these realistic sculptures of
these athletes that he was interested in. So I
did a lot of them. And so I kept
that realism going through because of that of that sort
of pushed by Fraser to do these and but the
other side key and I really learned to do Portrait
is I mean, he really as abstract as he
was, he still wants you to know how to
see and create from line. So he was I
did a portrait of Rosina when I was his student
, but he really pushed you into Ah, you're
seeing you know, And I had and I had
all through from grade school always have wonderful our teachers
just and I had from the time I was in
the first grade, I had teachers who recognized that
I was going to be a lot. I mean
, recognized I had some talent, so always got
pushed. And it was wonderful, you know,
and helped. That is wonderful, because I think
, yeah, not to get off on a tangent
. And education in this country has changed a great
deal. I mhm You're very lucky to have that
experience. Yeah, I don't I think there's so
many people that, as I said, they don't
want to have anything to do with something other than
one little thing. And that's made education a little
more narrow. You're right. They get to be
solved. Two special on. And you you carved
co goal. Right? Uh, I did a
sculpture of kogel and sculpture. Lynn Curry and I
did a sculpture of castles and castle Palestinians and,
well, you did the Walter Gropius, and supposedly
he never he never sat by any other sculpture or
any other or any paint. Sculpt or not Sculpture
. Yeah, well, he, uh Gropius was
fascinating. President Fresh got me to go up to
and they asked us out to the house and we
have a picture of us in the five Children on
their outside upstairs. Cambridge, Cambridge. Anyway,
so prince and end, I took that sculpture stand
. I took the clay and took everything, too
. And I had photographs of groping. So I
got a I got a start on from the photographs
, but I like to work from the river.
So I met with him. He took one of
his that is studio. He took one of the
rooms and made that into my sculptures video Just cleaned
it out. And I had to stand in the
end, my claim and he sat for me and
it was it was fascinating because I would I worked
hard on that portrait, but I really should have
kept the dire. But I just couldn't, right
. I was tired. I went interested and for
the stories he told me you were just a life
about his boyhood and I had had a rather large
problem. It knows that I had I had a
fairly prominent and his wife and he got me too
. Take it down. Something he thought was too
large. So I took it down and his wife
came in and she said, Oh, you know
, for final critiques, catch to his nose is
too small. She is that you've got to make
that big nose. I was so pleased. I
redid the nose to the the proportion that it was
. And he didn't say a word when she mhm
and they had a guest book and he had to
sign the guest book and all the page opposite my
page was Miro's pain. Yeah, signed right next
to Mr Miro. Is that interesting? That's amazing
. What I'll tell you for me. Making film
, making documentaries. The best part of it is
the people that I've gotten to meet like you.
Well, uh, cold will. Also, uh
, there was a desire. Uh huh. Comforts
of designs. Design school outside in Aspen, Colorado
. And Koga warned me to go. So I
did go out there, and, uh, it
was for our He really wanted me to be an
architect. Way I was, but so I went
out because I did teach basic design. So you
want me to have some design experiences? The doctor
was the one I selected to be with. Oh
, it was a joy. Yeah, the Arctic
and, you know, to have a class with
him every day and and I just love his work
. Anyway, I'm just crazy about his work.
And you can tell this house has a touch of
offer in. And it was just a joy.
Just the sheer joy. 10 days, a class
with Lord. And then I met fascinating people,
you know, they're architects, for the most part
, but from all of the countries that were there
. And it was a wonderful experience, and we
stayed and I fell in love with the area.
So we spent two something. Santa Fe. Okay
. I looked around Aspen. Couldn't find anything very
suitable for family on within my me and Sylvia Raney
. So when I went over to Santa Fe and
found a house in Santa Fe and Rosina came out
with two Children was three Children anyway, and we
lived in center site for summer. That was a
wonderful experience. Okay, I have to hear more
about this because nature is one of my one of
my favorite architects. He's inspired me a great deal
, so Oh, my God. I just love
. I mean, I just see him right now
. and, uh, I just fell in love
with it. So what can you share any?
This is for me. Can you share anything?
Did you recall from lessons things that he told you
that we're really stick with you? Well, the
main thing I remember is the sliding glass doors,
but, you know, he promoted and the idea
of a lot of light and sing out, you
know, having outside Come in. He promoted that
kind of thing. What? This house. It
was as a result, any. But it was
just a joy getting to know this great architect,
and he was just a trash. I had studied
with Zach King in Paris, and that was a
wonderful experience because he's a very famous stopped, But
then to have this class with this very famous architect
and whose whose work I just adored, I think
, uh, Frank Lloyd Wright I liked, but
I didn't adore Frank Lloyd Wright, like our door
door, a daughter in his clean lines and and
I just I mean, he just wow, and
he had a marvelous personality. I mean, just
, you know, he could He could just get
you to do anything he wants you to do.
I mean, he just just a pleasure. They
were really seminars that he was giving to us.
And we had a very small group, and it
was just wonderful. That was the best part of
living in Los Angeles for me was getting to see
his work. I mean, he I think he
captured an idea of modernity better than Oh, I
do too. Yeah, well, I'm glad you
like my my friend Arthur. I used I used
to a lot of landscape lectures to landscape groups and
a lot of them. I did, you know
, sculpture in the landscape. And then, you
know, that would be a target in general,
with the culture. I used a lot of North
Korea in it to say, You know, that
you could just have grass is designed and steps could
be designed and you know you can getting from the
grass into the house and going up and not just
little steps with realm but long steps. And oh
, I just love. Doctor used them constantly when
I talked to these women about landscape. That's great
. Wow, that's a nice, wonderful experience.
We'll see. And Cole gave me that experience he
woman and we drove. I drove out there.
I didn't have I mean, fly man anyway.
And I think getting much money for cooking there anyway
, Uh, the attack was never affluent in the
early years. Maybe they got a little more fluent
now, but it's it's hard to get grants and
art. It's hard to get any kind of grand
, and they weren't any many grants and art.
I mean, there were, You know, it's
not a grant world, but we're like the scientists
, you know, just not. Yeah, I
think that's the push now towards more research and in
architecture or about, you know, technology. Well
, anything else you want to. I mean,
I don't know. I've had such a full life
. That's why it's it's hard that it's hard to
. It's hard to stop, you know, there's
so many things like that, Um, but specifically
I guess, you know, for the for the
film about the 50th anniversary of the college, um
, anything else you want to add about how it's
evolved or changed, or I like the fact that
it's coming back more like the architectural program I was
in that is returning, believing that it is,
You know, because Birgit was of internationalist, shall
we say, if you want. I mean,
and he had a lot of foreign people come in
to teach in architecture, and a lot of egos
got involved in his program, You know, the
drill. And it was it was interesting. And
but he was a very dynamic person. And when
? Because when the building was being designed by Henry
Shriver Birch, it took over, and he made
it a virtual building. You don't have to touch
anything you don't want me to use. Just say
I should tell you that that's interesting. Yeah,
but I would want people seeing me. All right
, then I won't use. That's all You gotta
say anything you don't really use to say mhm,
don't use that. But you're a very attractive young
man, and you have a very nice way of
interviewing and you make me want it. Tell you
things I shouldn't tell. Let's see it. Mhm
. Yeah, well, you know, that's a
that's the people don't understand that there is a art
. The documentary filmmaking and the key is being interested
in the people that your interview I couldn't make a
film about about the subject that I wasn't extremely interested
in people who I wasn't thrilled to meet. I
mean, it's wonderful to meet you and talk to
you about that. And so you made me think
of a question, though. Um, so in
your opinion, um, because I I've studied the
history now, too, a great deal. And
there's a lot of people who feel that those burchard
Ferrari days we're really the heyday of the architecture program
. And you can see why, because of the
people, it was exactly and it was the change
in the curriculum. But I'm what I'm very curious
about is sort of these eternal truths of architecture and
art. So in your opinion, do you think
that because you said that he goes and I think
that's really a good way of saying it, that
it becomes somehow becomes about you're a student of a
particular teacher versus your student of the discipline. And
do you think that there's just so truths that need
to be taught versus you know? Well, I'll
I can tell you some stuff and you cut that
off. I'm not okay at all. The shadows
. Okay. Well, if you don't have anything
else you want to add to the well, I
think I think that there when I came here,
there were certain architects that were hired to teach architecture
and they had started with certain architects and they wanted
That could be it. I can tell you that
way I can tell you some other stuff. I'm
happy to cut it if you're happy to be done
. I don't think I've talked to love. Like
I said, you know, I can see you're
all things.