thank you. This is quite an honor um,
to be in your presence. And especially since you
have the honor of being the only person to serve
as AECT president twice. That's right. That's
right. Okay. You know how that happened?
No. Tell me we had a big convention in
Detroit and I was not on the tab on the
ballot and there was a big argument over where's your
three candidates they should support. They got into a
bay rhubarb and they finally said, Rock, we
haven't heard from you. What should we do?
Take a vote, Take a poll of this gang
here and see who the islands for the right president
. And that's how I got to be president the
second time. Uh, didn't know something. That
is something that is, well, you must have
done a good job the first time. Oh,
I wouldn't say that. I had lots of help
. Did you? Oh yes highlight and all that
game. I almost visited myself around to make all
the states probably didn't quite million. Okay. All
the states, wow. Let me ask you a
little bit about how you got started in our field
. What what? Okay, interesting. Well first
of all my first degrees in money and banking.
Oh, I come from a family of teachers and
they're all teachers who were While off, there were
heads of departments and 200. But I always looked
at them as sort of a tight money game.
And I said to myself when I get to be
in the graduate school, I'm going to enroll in
money and banking. I want to break this chain
. Then in 19 32 when I entered the university
again, I was expected to respond by being another
teacher and I said, no way I'm going to
now change my major. And my parents said you
can't do that. We paid for one education for
you, you're not going to go into money and
banking, that's too expensive. I said, that's
all right, I'll take care of it. And
I worked my way through the college at that time
and I graduated with my degree. It's a masters
title. Had Money and Bank 19 34 right in
the middle of the Depression. But to make a
long story short, I spent two years And bankruptcies
in five different banks. Well after you majored in
money and banking and you've worked a little bit after
the Great Depression, did you go to get a
degree and in our field and audiovisual communication? No
, I got my my my next degree was and
Educational Administration. That was that nobody quite knows what
that is. You can do anything as you know
, and that's where I did. I never had
less than two jobs because I was raising my family
. Have they all like to have fur coats to
keep up with the girls? You know? So
they gave me hubby. Yeah. But I never
missed. I have nothing to say about my past
accepting. I wouldn't dare to try to live it
again. Very brave. And if you haven't read
my memoirs while you're here, I wish you would
take the time out and spend an evening looking at
what? All right, thank you. Now um
you worked at the University of Wisconsin, is that
right? I started out and cash as a classroom
teacher working. I thought to make myself get in
through the graduate school when I got to graduate school
. They say you know, you want to change
your pony and banking. We can't we can't put
any of these credits in but we'll send you into
one of our young professors who was looking for students
. He said we're looking for students around here.
And if and if you'd like to come back in
, we'll help you because we're looking for a student
That was in 1934. Well, that put me
in touch with a guy by the name of john
guy fellas who was young with kids from Colombia.
Well, got his master's degree and early on 1919
62. So he and I made attack. If
I would work out On 20 credits a semester in
their major for two years. And if I would
get through that with all age, they would guarantee
me a degree, wow. And that's what I
did. That's how we got into this field.
Okay. And one of the first people I met
with Dragon Ball how to handle was a guy in
Ohio. He was state director of video in Ohio
. Did you run across him all those from the
dim dark days? But he was a guy who
invented the quick communication. You will call up who
will cause those are. And he was at the
University of Ohio. He says, you call us
in our audiovisual department And we will guarantee them overnight
delivery of any one of our 5000 times. And
that's the story I took back to Wisconsin. Okay
. And that became a brass between one guy who
is now dead. He was at Ohio. But
from there I was in this, in this field
. Okay. And I was, I was given
a short shift by all the old gang because they
thought that this was a guy who got bounced out
of the university. Of course not making a money
and day. Tell me a little bit about your
first job. My first job was when I decided
to go back to school and my wife said,
well don't help, we'll both work, but we're
not married yet. But we make arrangements to.
And after that was complete, I got my by
decree as a master's level from the University of Wisconsin
School of Education and from there on it was all
the way up because this young guy was a real
genius. He decided to be my caregiver. It
is my, what I call him. See your
advisor. No, he was born in that.
What do we call them mentor? He was a
real mentor and all the ones he made life miserable
for me. No, I always carrying 20 credits
and he was watching that Freddy fred and nothing but
Hey is all the way through and that's where I
got started. And that's how I met my first
audio visual guy. He was running the bureau at
the university. And when I graduated, Mhm,
ran away with the office secretary and all the money
he could take in from the film library and go
to florida. And my mentor said now we're going
to see that man and we're going to sell them
on the job because they're not hiring any t shirt
, but they want to hire you. We'll make
him a deal. Well, I won't go into
the details of them, but that's how I started
at the University of Wisconsin and I took over,
ultimately I took over his job because they never did
come back and they ran run the shop from the
University of Wisconsin, Audiovisual Education Center. Quite lucky
. What, what were some of your responsibilities there
? Well, first of all, I was running
the film library and it was in bad shape.
They had about 1000 films and they're struggling along.
They were limited, but and by the time I
got done with that, had an agreement with them
through this mentor. He's a real politician as well
as a good teacher. Had a good friend rather
than my first job, but I only got it
because my father was the chairman of the Department of
Physical Education for the University of Wisconsin. Was he
? And he thought, he said you can do
anything you want. But first you're going to get
one of our two year degrees in men's physical education
. So I got that in a semester at a
summer session. Oh and that's how I got continue
university. That's how I got the job. My
first being job was out of the university into central
high school where they were having an uprising among students
who were not going knocking themselves out busting up women's
game. This is one of the first, sorry
, one of the first rumbles of student uprising at
Wisconsin 1964. The only reason they hired me was
because I had gone to the school of education and
I had learned one of the courses that my father
taught was self defense and I went through all the
, all the regimen rose problem from the, from
the colonial ones to the european ones, to the
american ones, including all the albumin names, all
those things. And I couldn't, I could handle
myself very well because by that time I had a
white belt And I got the job because I guaranteed
to take care of that gang of 25 kids in
the classroom had already knocked into hospital care of the
two nurses teachers that I took over for. That
was my first job. Sounds tough. How would
you characterize our field when you first entered it?
How would you describe? Mhm. Was it audiovisual
communications? No. What was it? Go away
. They didn't have any names for it. They
started hitting in the schools of education, just judge
, there's there's a helper group, you know,
we've got these guys that know how to operate for
them in the right department. And who was,
that's how we started with only there and we had
a bunch of old timers who would meet periodically in
Chicago And they invited, I got myself invited down
there and I met about 15 All the old gang
, all from 1920 on and then knowing them was
very good, had I not had any money,
but by the time I got done I had got
my mentor you and help. And without that mentor
, I wouldn't be here today. He did everything
, he pointed out the way to go and he
loaded me up and put me on the dead.
He said do it and you did. Yeah.
Our field at the time that you entered it was
primarily focused on using media to support learning. What's
that? Right. No, no, no tell
me a little more about it. It was a
very rudimentary, slowly starting under paid gang of people
. The first thing I did well I said look
over the situation as Wisconsin and I got to deal
with them to send me to the to the Department
of Agriculture. And I went down there and I
found out all the books that they were publishing and
circulating. I'm not doing a very good job.
And I said look if you put those books with
me in Wisconsin we opened up the department of Educational
Communications and Technology right away and we'll get we'll get
all your books distribution centers and they all had a
bunch of that will take over the whole process.
But we will charge 50 cents providing that he will
provide us with a little feed money here. But
allow us to collect all of that and put it
into the development of this embryo department. And pretty
soon we had the largest university of films outside of
indiana. It's impressive. I can't think of the
guy's name. There is a power but It was
clear gaining. I soon had a staff of 25
people. They're all paid for out of rentals to
the schools. I was going to the school in
the summer and I would show them what can be
done by properly introducing a study, a study approach
to using good work, well care, selection,
films. And I also made a deal with encyclopedia
Britannica. After a while I was I was elected
to the, to the staff of the university in
return for certain things that I would do at the
University of Wisconsin. But also with the help of
encyclopedia Britannica and I began making demonstrations all over Wisconsin
on how to intelligently revived the hawking face tradition with
a new look in encyclopedia Britannica picture Now. They
never paid me, but they did provide me out
of bed early where they where they uh huh.
I'll pass with United United Films, which I could
carry anything with me and using at my own discretion
to go anywhere in the United States. As long
as I would take along a couple of films from
encyclopedia Britannica. And that worked out. I I
also was a member of their border Directors. Okay
. And they paid me very well and they soon
we're sending me out on all sorts of talking steps
with, uh, with their, with their students
. I had a rich experience there. Did you
work with? Was it Charles benton? It was
at the encyclopedia Britannica. The buttons. I knew
them very well. They were man and wife.
Okay. They would entertain me in their home and
they were the ones who finally got me this patch
. He said, we like what you're doing for
us, but you're not getting paid. I mean
I can't pay you, but we will do this
. We will give you an unlimited tasks. First
class to go anywhere in the United States where you
wanted to put on a demonstration of how to use
films in the classroom and you use film. Now
that may sound you is such a tricky sort of
thing to do, but it wasn't, they always
decided that I find I finally had to put myself
on a half scheduled with the University of Wisconsin to
quit. I thought on monday, Wednesday and monday
Tuesday and Wednesday and on thursday I could go out
and visit. Okay. So do you travel,
did you travel around the country? Well, I
meet people that we can't conventions. There is a
, wow, we'd like you to come and spend
a summer session with us. We can't pay you
. I said, well what can you do?
Well, we could put, put you up at
our summer session and pay for your room and board
. And then I said, well that take care
of my family and it said sure. So every
summer for about 20 years as my family was growing
up from little kids, we spend the summer on
another campus. It's all of them both. Okay
, Don't you say? Yes, that sounds interesting
. So was filmed primarily the medium that you worked
with? No, I started out with filmstrips.
Did you? Big ones, the kind that you
knocked into a big box and sent out with all
sorts of stickers. That was what I had to
work with when I got took over that department at
Wisconsin. But they were the ones who said,
if you can get all those books in there and
if you can play your own way, we would
allow you to keep all that money, not for
you, but for developing with That. I was
soon on a budget of around 50,000 years and had
a great sport because we can spend that what we
wanted to. I got none of it, but
I got what I wanted. And you began the
department there at Wisconsin. Oh, I didn't know
it was already going. It was, it was
a film department, but the men who ran it
would take the pictures for the campus and that was
it. That was what I I made a deal
with them. That everything we took in, we
would call call right back in in films. And
that ingratiated me to some of the film producers because
they would come to Wisconsin and I will send out
their films for evaluation from a team of teachers who
would review that in Wisconsin. And they say this
is agreement, We'll put it here. And pretty
soon we had a film library of about 5000 titles
. Yes. And the second largest in the United
States indiana was the only one that has a bigger
one. And that guy is, no doubt he
must have known him. Uh, one of the
, that was that the gentleman that started the department
there, was it? Howard Levy pushes back in
19 30, 19 1930, 38. I've been
around here a long time. No, that has
been very successful and it's been a pleasure. That's
fantastic. How would you describe exactly when you were
first president? Well, it was a big guitars
lot about whether we should give it, give it
a front seat to, uh, filmstrips. Are
these new things that were coming in computers? And
I said, both of us, by the time
we were done, that's what we were doing.
Yes. Now, I have to say that Wisconsin
has sort of lost its place in that. I
see your years or so in the field. They
haven't some of my successors, uh, didn't produce
. What were some of the courses you talk we
all had to do with, there were the improving
instruction I had when I went back to the,
I had retired from Wisconsin 1960. And from there
I went immediately to the same kind of a job
at the University of Wisconsin of how are you?
And they created this job for me and gave me
six professions that I could hire from anywhere in the
United States to make this department. And they're still
making tracks. Where in Hawaii was that, where
in Hawaii? Well, the whole thing, the
University of Hawaii is right in the center of the
capital city. What, what's the name? But
that's where you are? Yeah. At the university
there. Hello. Did you stay there a long
time? How is there until the retired name Again
? I retired the first time from Wisconsin a little
ahead of time and then they finally kept me on
for overtime with a, until I was there for
15 years. Okay, So by that time I
had revised their whole system and they're still using it
and it put it put the teacher in the driving
suit, we got a catalogue. We got a
catalogue each year With approximately 3000 films had on the
first day of september. There was that catalog for
, to get you there. All right there.
Care that uh, every teacher in Wisconsin had that
catalog on her desk by the open school Heavy.
We're off to a bank up, sir. It's
all very shrewd. What were some of the major
changes that you saw in the field during your time
when I came in? And he said, oh
yeah, you're showing moving pictures. We don't know
if we're ready for that yet. That's where I
started. I go out there. The University of
Wisconsin has nine branches. And when I first went
in there, I organized a class in audiovisual in
such and I would go out at night. That's
where I went out. I went out as an
evening for every hard on the family. Yeah,
yeah. But, but we may track, it's
on you can, you can eyeball that. Okay
. Okay. And so you worked with films and
film strips for another media. Did you work?
Well, we brought our way into computers. I
had a computer early on. I never could really
operate it wrong. When did you get your first
computer? Do you remember? Yeah, my kids
bought it for me. Was that actually retired in
19 70 78? By that time I was already
retired. He had born in 1910. Have 100
years later, I was ready. You were at
the forefront of educational media. Oh, absolutely,
yeah. You bet. And I was, well
, I was well reimbursed for it. Yeah.
What were some of the other trends that you saw
during your, your career? Well, you see
this textbook I had, which is a national celery
Title in four different languages and I got a copy
of it. I can show you a copy of
that. The Russians wrote in for a copy.
Have they said they guy called me and said,
shall we send the book? Yeah, well,
they don't want to pay for it and send it
to a charge to me. Well, here is
the only, the first one is that was in
Russia a year later. They sent me a copy
of my book in Russian. What do you feel
like we're some of your major accomplishments during your career
? My first accomplishment was marrying my wife. Oh
, she is a wonderful woman. She was an
only child. And when we decided to get married
to say now on I marry you on one condition
I'm not going to raise an only child. Uh
huh. I said what do you want to do
? I want at least six kids. And we
didn't get that far. Tell me a little bit
more about some of your accomplishments during your career.
What were some of your your major contributions to the
field? Well first of all I was there when
they were fumbling with what their names should be and
I couldn't hold up my grandchildren shut up! When
my term came I said this has got to be
something larger than a tagalog. It's got to be
a central activity and it's got to be called a
degree corollary wherever we can sell now that's happened.
Well my major accomplishments. Mhm. Well I have
a lot of friends, a lot of them still
write to me at christmas, but I can't answer
it now because I can't write that, I cannot
write a readable why it anymore. I can't either
walt. I have had my daughters do it for
me. Oh, very good. Can you talk
a little bit about what were some of the activities
in a ct when you were president? What kinds
of interests and activities did act have at the time
you were president? Well they all looked at a
lot of the people that looked at their jobs as
a sort of a relaxation at all, put a
film in the classroom and turn it on and you
could be free to go down do what you want
to do. Well, everybody had their chance to
come in and demonstrate, including me and marry sort
was to invite a trance room of teachers that come
in And bring in 6th grade students had. And
I would, I would introduce myself as a teacher
for the day and we will, I'll show you
what I would do if I were using Vidia.
Well, we always had a high point demonstration,
usually had one of my own. I would,
I would kick up kids in here and we would
work out how we would very my opening question was
that a good teacher turns on saying we're going to
study this now. And the first thing we're going
to do is to find out what you want to
learn about. And that took a couple of days
and after that happened, then I would then come
back and say, now we're going to do all
of this. In the meantime, I had talked
to the filmmakers, how about having born films.
I will talk about people who have maps, scopes
and charts and they would provide us with those things
to put in their classroom. And we got panel
my results through all those people who were coming together
to see what was this all about and taking a
big chance. Thank you so much. Well,
thank you for your time again.