WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.940 --> 00:00:07.299 A:middle L:90% today, we're here in Fairfield California with Dr Jerrold 2 00:00:07.309 --> 00:00:11.830 A:middle L:90% Kemp and it's june 14th 2000 and 12 and welcome 3 00:00:11.830 --> 00:00:14.369 A:middle L:90% jerry, thank you so much for participating in the 4 00:00:14.369 --> 00:00:17.030 A:middle L:90% history makers project. Thank you for this opportunity. 5 00:00:17.030 --> 00:00:19.519 A:middle L:90% Barbara, this has been a great field for me 6 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.670 A:middle L:90% to work. Why don't you begin by telling us 7 00:00:22.670 --> 00:00:25.960 A:middle L:90% a little bit about what you're doing now, where 8 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:28.410 A:middle L:90% you're living and what you've been up to. Okay 9 00:00:28.410 --> 00:00:31.839 A:middle L:90% , my wife Edith and I live in a retirement 10 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:36.289 A:middle L:90% senior retirement community that has been burned by the, 11 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:41.799 A:middle L:90% by retired military people here. There are 23 apartment 12 00:00:41.810 --> 00:00:46.700 A:middle L:90% buildings and about 40 homes. So There are about 13 00:00:46.710 --> 00:00:51.020 A:middle L:90% over 300 people living in this area and they provide 14 00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:55.969 A:middle L:90% a very good services which included assisted living nursing care 15 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:59.799 A:middle L:90% as necessary. We're getting along pretty well yet. 16 00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:03.439 A:middle L:90% But those times to come and I discovered this by 17 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:11.319 A:middle L:90% reading an advertisement in the retired military offices, magazine 18 00:01:11.329 --> 00:01:15.530 A:middle L:90% , monthly magazine and we wanted something in northern California 19 00:01:15.530 --> 00:01:19.319 A:middle L:90% near Berkeley where my wife's daughter lives and this was 20 00:01:19.329 --> 00:01:22.390 A:middle L:90% the best and we checked it out, checked some 21 00:01:22.390 --> 00:01:26.040 A:middle L:90% others out and that's fine. So we're happy to 22 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:29.409 A:middle L:90% be here. I'm not involved in education stuff at 23 00:01:29.409 --> 00:01:32.439 A:middle L:90% this time very much. You have other interests I 24 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:34.439 A:middle L:90% pursue and we'll mention those as we go ahead. 25 00:01:34.650 --> 00:01:38.450 A:middle L:90% Okay, great. Thank you. Tell us a 26 00:01:38.450 --> 00:01:42.650 A:middle L:90% little bit about your your work history where you began 27 00:01:42.650 --> 00:01:45.959 A:middle L:90% and and a little bit about your career. Okay 28 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.129 A:middle L:90% . My work history in our field, which was 29 00:01:49.129 --> 00:01:53.239 A:middle L:90% known as the audio visual field, came about after 30 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:57.159 A:middle L:90% I left the military during the Second World war. 31 00:01:59.019 --> 00:02:01.129 A:middle L:90% I had been a chemistry major at the at the 32 00:02:01.129 --> 00:02:10.449 A:middle L:90% university of of florida Gainesville before the war and I 33 00:02:10.460 --> 00:02:14.030 A:middle L:90% studied chemistry there as I say. And when I 34 00:02:14.030 --> 00:02:16.319 A:middle L:90% came back after the service I very much wanted to 35 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.949 A:middle L:90% teach, I like kids very much and I wanted 36 00:02:20.949 --> 00:02:25.319 A:middle L:90% to teach science two Children. And I applied for 37 00:02:25.449 --> 00:02:30.659 A:middle L:90% a teaching position at a junior high school in Miami 38 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:36.219 A:middle L:90% which had a very nice american name known as the 39 00:02:36.219 --> 00:02:38.590 A:middle L:90% robert E lee junior high school. And I use 40 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:42.750 A:middle L:90% films a great deal because I love the idea of 41 00:02:42.750 --> 00:02:45.419 A:middle L:90% not just talking as I had. Teachers would say 42 00:02:45.419 --> 00:02:49.430 A:middle L:90% to me once in a while that I remember a 43 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:55.889 A:middle L:90% history teacher teaching of course to the students on the 44 00:02:55.900 --> 00:03:01.460 A:middle L:90% revolutionary days as America was forming. And I said 45 00:03:01.460 --> 00:03:05.139 A:middle L:90% , hey, there's a new film in the library 46 00:03:05.150 --> 00:03:07.689 A:middle L:90% on the revolution. Oh, she says that sounds 47 00:03:07.689 --> 00:03:10.599 A:middle L:90% interesting. She says, well, as soon as 48 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.550 A:middle L:90% I get done my lecture, I'll consider using it 49 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:16.189 A:middle L:90% . And I said to myself, wouldn't it be 50 00:03:16.189 --> 00:03:19.900 A:middle L:90% good for her to use that before the lecture? 51 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.900 A:middle L:90% So the students would know more what this subject is 52 00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:27.449 A:middle L:90% about rather than go through the verbal work that she's 53 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:30.620 A:middle L:90% doing in her lecture and that way. And I 54 00:03:30.620 --> 00:03:34.379 A:middle L:90% became more interested in helping teachers to look at the 55 00:03:34.389 --> 00:03:38.520 A:middle L:90% contributions that audiovisual made. So that's where I got 56 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.710 A:middle L:90% started. I tried, I took my master's degree 57 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.759 A:middle L:90% at the University of Miami in florida and there was 58 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:53.750 A:middle L:90% one course on audiovisual education and it was of course 59 00:03:53.759 --> 00:04:00.270 A:middle L:90% that was mainly offered by the salesman from the film 60 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:03.979 A:middle L:90% projectors and slide projector companies for the students there. 61 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:06.509 A:middle L:90% And I learned how to run the projectors in that 62 00:04:06.509 --> 00:04:11.629 A:middle L:90% way. But also the interesting thing was that there 63 00:04:11.629 --> 00:04:14.789 A:middle L:90% was a textbook used in the course And it was 64 00:04:14.789 --> 00:04:16.720 A:middle L:90% a book some of you may have been familiar with 65 00:04:16.730 --> 00:04:19.420 A:middle L:90% from a long distance, it was done in the 66 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:27.329 A:middle L:90% 1940s 46. It's Baker Dale audio visual methods of 67 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:31.959 A:middle L:90% teaching and this is really a fascinating thing to read 68 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.209 A:middle L:90% even today to to look at this. I marked 69 00:04:35.209 --> 00:04:40.170 A:middle L:90% one page in here, which is which is what's 70 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:46.850 A:middle L:90% called the cone of experience. Moving from the most 71 00:04:46.939 --> 00:04:53.600 A:middle L:90% communicative forms of technology. Down at the bottom, 72 00:04:53.649 --> 00:04:59.889 A:middle L:90% direct purposeful experiences, contrived experience, dramatic participation, 73 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:02.750 A:middle L:90% where you're all doing things, demonstrations, field trips 74 00:05:02.750 --> 00:05:06.399 A:middle L:90% , exhibits, and then those are the doing and 75 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:12.000 A:middle L:90% then on the second level are the observing and these 76 00:05:12.009 --> 00:05:17.410 A:middle L:90% are with motion pictures, Radio and recordings. Remember 77 00:05:17.410 --> 00:05:23.060 A:middle L:90% , this was written in 1946 visual symbols, and 78 00:05:23.060 --> 00:05:25.449 A:middle L:90% then there's the top of it, which is the 79 00:05:25.449 --> 00:05:30.860 A:middle L:90% symbolizing the verbal symbols, the voice and so forth 80 00:05:30.339 --> 00:05:34.949 A:middle L:90% . So we're going from direct experiences to the media 81 00:05:35.339 --> 00:05:41.360 A:middle L:90% which an intermediate type experience to the verbal levels dealing 82 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.310 A:middle L:90% in lectures and so forth. And Edward L just 83 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:46.519 A:middle L:90% did a great thing. And he was at Ohio 84 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.839 A:middle L:90% State and I admired him for many ways and kept 85 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.449 A:middle L:90% in touch with him later on because he made me 86 00:05:54.449 --> 00:05:57.930 A:middle L:90% think about this field in new ways. So that's 87 00:05:57.930 --> 00:06:00.449 A:middle L:90% how I got started in the profession. That's wonderful 88 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.740 A:middle L:90% . And tell us about the primary focus of your 89 00:06:04.750 --> 00:06:08.850 A:middle L:90% work during your career. Well, when I when 90 00:06:08.850 --> 00:06:11.709 A:middle L:90% I started working in the audio visual field, it 91 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:16.230 A:middle L:90% interested me greatly because it was learning things that you 92 00:06:16.230 --> 00:06:23.439 A:middle L:90% could participate in. It wasn't a textbook, particularly 93 00:06:23.449 --> 00:06:27.500 A:middle L:90% verbal learning the top of the tail cone in that 94 00:06:27.500 --> 00:06:30.759 A:middle L:90% sense at all. It was hands on in a 95 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:34.819 A:middle L:90% large extent. And I had experiences as a as 96 00:06:34.819 --> 00:06:39.430 A:middle L:90% a young kid going to a boy's summer camp in 97 00:06:39.430 --> 00:06:43.220 A:middle L:90% Connecticut. And it was fascinating to me because the 98 00:06:43.230 --> 00:06:47.920 A:middle L:90% director was just just a very good teacher, but 99 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:51.610 A:middle L:90% his teaching was that you the student had to be 100 00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:56.939 A:middle L:90% able to do it or or discuss it or understand 101 00:06:56.939 --> 00:07:00.050 A:middle L:90% it and illustrate that. And we would do things 102 00:07:00.050 --> 00:07:02.680 A:middle L:90% about, learning about plants and the difference leaves on 103 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:08.209 A:middle L:90% trees and things and we would have to identify and 104 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:12.250 A:middle L:90% relate them ourselves rather than just hearing about them. 105 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.279 A:middle L:90% And that started me out thinking about if you're in 106 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.560 A:middle L:90% education you would want the students to be a participatory 107 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:27.139 A:middle L:90% resource in the process of learning rather than sitting back 108 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:29.819 A:middle L:90% and verbalizing about it, which is how it so 109 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:32.379 A:middle L:90% often happens. So the audio visual field for me 110 00:07:32.389 --> 00:07:35.550 A:middle L:90% was the way to get out into that. And 111 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:39.350 A:middle L:90% and that got me going when I finished my degree 112 00:07:39.350 --> 00:07:45.079 A:middle L:90% at the University of Miami the Master's degree and I 113 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:47.509 A:middle L:90% still have Gi Bill left, I talked to the 114 00:07:47.509 --> 00:07:54.410 A:middle L:90% audio visual director at the film library in the county 115 00:07:54.420 --> 00:07:57.379 A:middle L:90% and I said you know where can you go to 116 00:07:57.379 --> 00:07:59.480 A:middle L:90% get a doctor degree? I still have G. 117 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:01.269 A:middle L:90% I. Bill so I wouldn't have to be paying 118 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.649 A:middle L:90% for my education. And I would like to study 119 00:08:03.649 --> 00:08:07.750 A:middle L:90% somewhere where I would learn the practical things dealing with 120 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.379 A:middle L:90% audio vision. He says the best one in the 121 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:16.399 A:middle L:90% country is Indiana University. I said in indiana. 122 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:18.040 A:middle L:90% Yeah. I said oh that's interesting. And I 123 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.399 A:middle L:90% contacted them and I found out that they teach you 124 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:26.720 A:middle L:90% how to film production. How did you slide and 125 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:31.199 A:middle L:90% record with tapes and you can make little strips, 126 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:33.899 A:middle L:90% which we called filmstrips and put sound on them and 127 00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:37.759 A:middle L:90% those can be used for students to study by themselves 128 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.259 A:middle L:90% . I said this sounds fascinating, it's practical. 129 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:46.480 A:middle L:90% I was also learning about running film libraries and the 130 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.029 A:middle L:90% theories of of communication and all and you need to 131 00:08:50.029 --> 00:08:52.169 A:middle L:90% learn on the doctoral level. So I went to 132 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:56.549 A:middle L:90% Indiana University and I was there about two years working 133 00:08:56.549 --> 00:09:01.360 A:middle L:90% on my on my doctoral degree and I learned wonderful 134 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.679 A:middle L:90% things from a faculty and a staff that were most 135 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.700 A:middle L:90% remarkable. I wrote down on paper here some of 136 00:09:09.700 --> 00:09:15.750 A:middle L:90% the some of the take the people boy, I 137 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:18.059 A:middle L:90% didn't have that guy's name down that ran the show 138 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:20.360 A:middle L:90% . But there was a fellow in production harvey fry 139 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:24.559 A:middle L:90% who taught graphics and all. And there was a 140 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.669 A:middle L:90% fellow named Denny Pet who taught the motion picture techniques 141 00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:31.919 A:middle L:90% and it was just awful. You really got to 142 00:09:31.929 --> 00:09:35.620 A:middle L:90% do it and became so good at it that you'll 143 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:37.210 A:middle L:90% be able to work with it as you did it 144 00:09:37.220 --> 00:09:39.929 A:middle L:90% . And that got me into the field that way 145 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:43.389 A:middle L:90% very much. And after I finished my work in 146 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:48.419 A:middle L:90% indiana, the interest now was to find a job 147 00:09:48.429 --> 00:09:52.009 A:middle L:90% I could work in and apply this stuff. And 148 00:09:52.019 --> 00:09:56.129 A:middle L:90% I was told that at a place called and it 149 00:09:56.129 --> 00:10:01.429 A:middle L:90% was actually san Jose college In the late 50s, 150 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.330 A:middle L:90% which was in California in the bay area, relatively 151 00:10:05.330 --> 00:10:09.059 A:middle L:90% near San Francisco. And they were setting up an 152 00:10:09.070 --> 00:10:13.330 A:middle L:90% audiovisual center with a film library and so forth, 153 00:10:13.340 --> 00:10:16.080 A:middle L:90% primarily for resources for the faculty. And they did 154 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.470 A:middle L:90% have what we know what we used to call. 155 00:10:20.470 --> 00:10:24.580 A:middle L:90% They still do except they're retired overhead projectors and opaque 156 00:10:24.580 --> 00:10:30.169 A:middle L:90% projective that faculty members could use in their teaching to 157 00:10:30.169 --> 00:10:35.009 A:middle L:90% illustrate things and the audio visual center, in addition 158 00:10:35.009 --> 00:10:39.639 A:middle L:90% to having the film library had staff members who could 159 00:10:39.649 --> 00:10:43.649 A:middle L:90% help the faculty members to use this stuff and also 160 00:10:43.649 --> 00:10:48.470 A:middle L:90% produce it. We had a film production man that 161 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:50.610 A:middle L:90% worked with me in film production. I had a 162 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:56.059 A:middle L:90% graphic artist, I had a recording technician and these 163 00:10:56.059 --> 00:11:00.220 A:middle L:90% old could work with faculty and meat and I was 164 00:11:00.220 --> 00:11:03.659 A:middle L:90% doing scripts and doing storyboards for faculty on things they 165 00:11:03.659 --> 00:11:07.899 A:middle L:90% wanted to illustrate and that was a great come on 166 00:11:07.909 --> 00:11:11.450 A:middle L:90% . And it got things very interested in. Faculty 167 00:11:11.450 --> 00:11:15.889 A:middle L:90% members became very active with this and it satisfied me 168 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:18.120 A:middle L:90% , excuse me, because I could see things that 169 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.549 A:middle L:90% they would want to do. I still remember an 170 00:11:20.549 --> 00:11:26.429 A:middle L:90% instructor in the art, art department who taught art 171 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:30.860 A:middle L:90% history and this was general education. So she had 172 00:11:30.860 --> 00:11:33.620 A:middle L:90% students that came to our history who came from Business 173 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:39.200 A:middle L:90% and Engineering and the sciences, history, language and 174 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.080 A:middle L:90% they have to take a general education class. And 175 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.980 A:middle L:90% they picked the one in art history And she said 176 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:48.129 A:middle L:90% they would sit and she had about 60 of them 177 00:11:48.129 --> 00:11:52.830 A:middle L:90% in a lecture hall and she would show slides and 178 00:11:52.830 --> 00:11:58.169 A:middle L:90% lecture about historical topics and she could see they were 179 00:11:58.169 --> 00:12:01.049 A:middle L:90% born by this sort of thing to do. And 180 00:12:01.049 --> 00:12:03.320 A:middle L:90% as she said at the end of the course, 181 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:07.659 A:middle L:90% when they took the final exam and they were leaving 182 00:12:07.669 --> 00:12:09.480 A:middle L:90% , one guy would say to another one as he 183 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.190 A:middle L:90% left through the doorway, he'd say, boy, 184 00:12:11.190 --> 00:12:15.309 A:middle L:90% that's the last art class I ever take. He 185 00:12:15.309 --> 00:12:16.210 A:middle L:90% said, that was just boring. She said, 186 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:18.409 A:middle L:90% I want to make it more interesting. I said 187 00:12:18.409 --> 00:12:20.399 A:middle L:90% , well can't we get them to learn some of 188 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.610 A:middle L:90% the stuff on their own by having the visuals you 189 00:12:24.610 --> 00:12:28.299 A:middle L:90% show and talk about and ask them questions that would 190 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:33.120 A:middle L:90% get them involved. And then instead of your lecturing 191 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.059 A:middle L:90% , they could study this stuff in a layout with 192 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:39.960 A:middle L:90% filmstrips or slide tape or whatever we can provide. 193 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:43.799 A:middle L:90% And you and I could script those together and then 194 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:46.039 A:middle L:90% you would present and they would have time and we 195 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.549 A:middle L:90% could set up a lab where we have this whole 196 00:12:48.549 --> 00:12:52.659 A:middle L:90% series of film strips set up and it would be 197 00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:56.490 A:middle L:90% open. We could get graduate students in art who 198 00:12:56.490 --> 00:13:00.850 A:middle L:90% could run it there for you. And then you 199 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:03.909 A:middle L:90% would meet them three times a week for three hours 200 00:13:03.909 --> 00:13:09.610 A:middle L:90% of classes and have them meet with you and discuss 201 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:13.960 A:middle L:90% these things and review questions before you test it all 202 00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:15.740 A:middle L:90% . And I said you might even be able to 203 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:18.429 A:middle L:90% take field trips to museums and art galleries that they 204 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.860 A:middle L:90% could see the artists and what you're talking about. 205 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.750 A:middle L:90% And she was very open to this sort of thing 206 00:13:26.139 --> 00:13:28.240 A:middle L:90% . And that became a big deal. And that 207 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:31.639 A:middle L:90% got me started. I'm thinking about teaching in new 208 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:33.529 A:middle L:90% ways with the media and all sort of things. 209 00:13:33.529 --> 00:13:37.419 A:middle L:90% So that that, that worked with me at SAN 210 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:39.779 A:middle L:90% Jose state and uh, and as a matter of 211 00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:43.679 A:middle L:90% fact, the word got out with her and I 212 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.980 A:middle L:90% had a fellow in science doing this also with his 213 00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:50.259 A:middle L:90% labs and so forth. And, and, and 214 00:13:50.269 --> 00:13:54.259 A:middle L:90% , and work have the students studying this stuff ahead 215 00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:58.309 A:middle L:90% of time and prepare to meet in the class with 216 00:13:58.309 --> 00:14:01.860 A:middle L:90% the instructor and go over reviews and so forth. 217 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:05.200 A:middle L:90% And we even had people from the chancellor's office and 218 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:07.460 A:middle L:90% what are these people doing there? That's so different 219 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.580 A:middle L:90% we could hear. And I used to go down 220 00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:11.679 A:middle L:90% into the lab of the uh, of the art 221 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:16.629 A:middle L:90% teacher and into the, into the, where the 222 00:14:16.629 --> 00:14:18.450 A:middle L:90% students were studying by themselves and they used to be 223 00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:22.220 A:middle L:90% people coming in and looking around and the, and 224 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.370 A:middle L:90% the graduate student who sort of, we asked, 225 00:14:24.370 --> 00:14:26.190 A:middle L:90% excuse me, uh, you're not in the class 226 00:14:26.190 --> 00:14:28.940 A:middle L:90% . So you know, he says, brace took 227 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:31.320 A:middle L:90% the course last semester and I wanted to see what 228 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.379 A:middle L:90% you're doing different now. So it's just a whole 229 00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:39.879 A:middle L:90% series of beliefs in that and professionally that got me 230 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:45.309 A:middle L:90% starting to think more and more about the need for 231 00:14:45.309 --> 00:14:48.019 A:middle L:90% getting us to use the audio visuals, not as 232 00:14:48.029 --> 00:14:52.190 A:middle L:90% assistance for the lecture, but for student learning that 233 00:14:52.190 --> 00:14:56.700 A:middle L:90% they can pace themselves on at their own time and 234 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.509 A:middle L:90% then move on to it. So that was my 235 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.679 A:middle L:90% background, so to speak. As I moved into 236 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.340 A:middle L:90% this sort of thing, I was having contacts with 237 00:15:05.350 --> 00:15:11.389 A:middle L:90% other leaders in the field and I can convention some 238 00:15:11.389 --> 00:15:13.950 A:middle L:90% of them, pardon me for putting my head down 239 00:15:13.950 --> 00:15:16.259 A:middle L:90% for a moment. I wanted to get a book 240 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:20.720 A:middle L:90% here. Uh for example, a fellow named Jim 241 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.629 A:middle L:90% Finn James Finn at USC did a book on extending 242 00:15:24.629 --> 00:15:31.610 A:middle L:90% education through technology, which my colleague at san Jose 243 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:37.860 A:middle L:90% state, Ron Macbeth was the was published all the 244 00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:41.899 A:middle L:90% he was sort of the editor he was edited by 245 00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:45.950 A:middle L:90% , but this was this was James Jim Finn. 246 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:48.759 A:middle L:90% It was a very good theorist in the field. 247 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.659 A:middle L:90% He didn't ever make audio visuals himself, never made 248 00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:54.529 A:middle L:90% a film or anything, but he did the theory 249 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:58.970 A:middle L:90% behind it, a white man and I would read 250 00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:02.230 A:middle L:90% that and others would read it and we feel this 251 00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:04.279 A:middle L:90% sort of thing is so, so valuable. And 252 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.529 A:middle L:90% I'll mention some others that were very important here. 253 00:16:07.529 --> 00:16:14.429 A:middle L:90% I mentioned Edgar Dale Jim Finn fellow at Penn State 254 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.649 A:middle L:90% charlie open there. There was a fellow in And 255 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:22.039 A:middle L:90% by the way, as a side issue when I 256 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.659 A:middle L:90% went to San Jose in 1958, uh huh. 257 00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:29.700 A:middle L:90% What was happening in the early 60s? Many of 258 00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:33.120 A:middle L:90% you know about the Silicon Valley was being started in 259 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.059 A:middle L:90% that area and there were a great number of companies 260 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:41.070 A:middle L:90% that were forming to deal with computers, Apple intel 261 00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:45.059 A:middle L:90% , you would pack it and go on and on 262 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.059 A:middle L:90% . And they were running into interesting problems they were 263 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.480 A:middle L:90% teaching, they had to they had to provide instruction 264 00:16:53.879 --> 00:17:00.159 A:middle L:90% for their employees and the engineers were developing the components 265 00:17:00.409 --> 00:17:04.150 A:middle L:90% of computers that would be necessary developed here and that 266 00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:10.140 A:middle L:90% was going to cause training for the people who assembled 267 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:11.890 A:middle L:90% made the equipment, put it together, those who 268 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:17.069 A:middle L:90% sold salesman out in the field and many others in 269 00:17:17.069 --> 00:17:21.380 A:middle L:90% the company to understand what the computers are and what 270 00:17:21.380 --> 00:17:23.269 A:middle L:90% they would be doing, how they should be put 271 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.490 A:middle L:90% manufactured and so forth. And they were lectured to 272 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:32.170 A:middle L:90% by engineers and as one of the companies Hewlett package 273 00:17:32.740 --> 00:17:34.559 A:middle L:90% give us a call one day and said and said 274 00:17:34.569 --> 00:17:37.859 A:middle L:90% Dr kEMP, we have a problem. We have 275 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:42.750 A:middle L:90% engineers giving lectures to our employees so they understand what 276 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:47.289 A:middle L:90% they have to do in their operational footwork or in 277 00:17:47.289 --> 00:17:52.089 A:middle L:90% the sales work. And and the employees tell us 278 00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:55.880 A:middle L:90% that they don't understand what the engineers are talking about 279 00:17:55.890 --> 00:17:57.849 A:middle L:90% because they're giving them election. As one said to 280 00:17:57.849 --> 00:18:02.440 A:middle L:90% him, the manager said, we're giving, it 281 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.940 A:middle L:90% sounds like one engineer lecturing to another engineer and they're 282 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.569 A:middle L:90% not communicating to average people. So we took the 283 00:18:08.569 --> 00:18:14.569 A:middle L:90% engineers and we gave courses where they would make visual 284 00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:18.750 A:middle L:90% materials, they can make videos if necessary or 16 285 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:22.369 A:middle L:90% millimeter in the early days and slides and use these 286 00:18:22.380 --> 00:18:26.240 A:middle L:90% along with handouts for the employees. And they describe 287 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.640 A:middle L:90% them and the staff started to learn this stuff and 288 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.799 A:middle L:90% they thanked us profusely and I said, you know 289 00:18:33.809 --> 00:18:36.170 A:middle L:90% , we don't only have to train our teachers and 290 00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:38.700 A:middle L:90% professors, but we've got to help the engineering and 291 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:44.630 A:middle L:90% the manufacturing company to understand and training their audiovisual has 292 00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:47.549 A:middle L:90% a key role to play. So I had people 293 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:52.089 A:middle L:90% some of you may remember the name robert meager bob 294 00:18:52.089 --> 00:19:00.119 A:middle L:90% maker today in a very nice book and he remembers 295 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.750 A:middle L:90% something called programmed instruction that went on in the early 296 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.950 A:middle L:90% days, which, which was pages in a book 297 00:19:07.990 --> 00:19:11.119 A:middle L:90% , which were, which was just questions with some 298 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.380 A:middle L:90% information. And you have to pick an answer to 299 00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:15.910 A:middle L:90% the question and go to another page. Either a 300 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.450 A:middle L:90% right yes, I would, no, I wouldn't 301 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.170 A:middle L:90% . And you pick the right page and say, 302 00:19:22.180 --> 00:19:23.960 A:middle L:90% Oh no, you're wrong. You have to learn 303 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.009 A:middle L:90% more about that. Go back and read it again 304 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:29.509 A:middle L:90% or something or yes, you did. If so 305 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.049 A:middle L:90% , now turn to page 37. So you go 306 00:19:32.049 --> 00:19:34.730 A:middle L:90% all over the place. And publishers were very upset 307 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:37.579 A:middle L:90% because you're only writing a little bit on a piece 308 00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:40.480 A:middle L:90% of paper when you're doing the book. But mega 309 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:44.660 A:middle L:90% did a book on preparing objectives for programmed instruction. 310 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:47.799 A:middle L:90% And he started to teach me about things that I 311 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.579 A:middle L:90% wasn't thinking about initially here. So there are a 312 00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:55.440 A:middle L:90% lot of people in industry, robert gagne at florida 313 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.009 A:middle L:90% state was into the theory for some of these sorts 314 00:19:59.009 --> 00:20:06.180 A:middle L:90% of things. Yeah. Roger Kaufman at Foreign State 315 00:20:06.190 --> 00:20:08.539 A:middle L:90% also, I think was in that Dave Merrill who 316 00:20:08.539 --> 00:20:11.849 A:middle L:90% was in our field either Davey, I have a 317 00:20:11.849 --> 00:20:15.009 A:middle L:90% number of people that are listed down here, be 318 00:20:15.009 --> 00:20:18.960 A:middle L:90% of Skinner, I mentioned also, they were into 319 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.829 A:middle L:90% this sort of thing in new way. Now what 320 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:26.769 A:middle L:90% this did to me was to think of doing beyond 321 00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:30.549 A:middle L:90% what we were originally doing and what I was doing 322 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.400 A:middle L:90% was dealing with the audiovisual material stuff. And I 323 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:37.609 A:middle L:90% have then said, I'm going to make some text 324 00:20:37.609 --> 00:20:41.369 A:middle L:90% books about this that people will understand. And I 325 00:20:41.380 --> 00:20:48.630 A:middle L:90% first started my textbooks Where was 63 planning and producing 326 00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:52.750 A:middle L:90% audiovisual material. I had a graphic artist when a 327 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.140 A:middle L:90% photographer that worked with me. And you can just 328 00:20:56.140 --> 00:21:00.990 A:middle L:90% see on pages there are photographs are things trying to 329 00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:03.420 A:middle L:90% tell people when you talk about a camera shooting a 330 00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:07.990 A:middle L:90% long shot through the lens. What does that mean 331 00:21:07.289 --> 00:21:10.960 A:middle L:90% ? Well you can see what different you have a 332 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.160 A:middle L:90% long shot medium shot close up and so forth. 333 00:21:14.539 --> 00:21:17.109 A:middle L:90% And it's all explained in the book. And this 334 00:21:17.109 --> 00:21:18.819 A:middle L:90% was a great book because I ended up with about 335 00:21:18.829 --> 00:21:22.859 A:middle L:90% eight editions. And there was a fellow from Utah 336 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:26.799 A:middle L:90% State University. I'll get it right don smelly who 337 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.500 A:middle L:90% became a co author with me because I wasn't up 338 00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:33.650 A:middle L:90% on some of the new technologies anymore now. And 339 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:36.289 A:middle L:90% we did great on that. Ah we made a 340 00:21:36.289 --> 00:21:41.500 A:middle L:90% thing for toastmaster people who give talks and so it's 341 00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:45.970 A:middle L:90% great that they would use audiovisual Toastmasters international and audiovisual 342 00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:49.109 A:middle L:90% Handbook that a colleague of mine at san Jose state 343 00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:53.230 A:middle L:90% critic louis louis did. We did it together with 344 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:57.750 A:middle L:90% an artist that he illustrated how things could be explained 345 00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:00.940 A:middle L:90% . Very nice. I noticed the very beginning they 346 00:22:00.940 --> 00:22:08.140 A:middle L:90% had a great a great deal of people seated sleeping 347 00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:14.119 A:middle L:90% with intellectual holes at all. Yeah, it wasn't 348 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:17.920 A:middle L:90% working. And then it was so interesting that we 349 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.720 A:middle L:90% prepared a guide for educational media from McGraw Hill, 350 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:26.069 A:middle L:90% which talked about what these media are and how they 351 00:22:26.069 --> 00:22:30.359 A:middle L:90% are. And then we did a kid, we 352 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.819 A:middle L:90% produced a whole series of visual material that could be 353 00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:37.259 A:middle L:90% used by teachers to learn more about this. And 354 00:22:37.269 --> 00:22:41.849 A:middle L:90% this was our contribution and the productivity of us and 355 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.400 A:middle L:90% got our name into many people. And then when 356 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:51.269 A:middle L:90% I was doing all this, I became president sheikh 357 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:56.450 A:middle L:90% in the afternoon, I became president of act in 358 00:22:56.450 --> 00:23:00.329 A:middle L:90% 1973. And guess what year that was? That 359 00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:07.339 A:middle L:90% was the 50th anniversary of the CTT and AV It's 360 00:23:07.339 --> 00:23:11.720 A:middle L:90% forerunner, which started in 1923. And now it 361 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:17.170 A:middle L:90% was 73, our 50 years in a V. 362 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:22.269 A:middle L:90% We did a commemorative booklet on this sort of thing 363 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:26.940 A:middle L:90% . And and I was, I was president and 364 00:23:26.950 --> 00:23:34.119 A:middle L:90% bob Jarecki was the president elect from sacramento. Howard 365 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:40.880 A:middle L:90% Hitchens was executive director And Dick nine Bec It was 366 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:42.309 A:middle L:90% a deputy executive. These are going back to the 367 00:23:42.309 --> 00:23:45.240 A:middle L:90% 70s, there's a copy of this around, I 368 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:51.349 A:middle L:90% know, put this out of how it worked and 369 00:23:51.349 --> 00:23:55.359 A:middle L:90% all that. It's fascinating. All the folks that 370 00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:57.890 A:middle L:90% I talked with, I can mention names like charlie 371 00:23:57.890 --> 00:24:03.769 A:middle L:90% shaw from michigan state, Ray Wyman from central Washington 372 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.859 A:middle L:90% and and all those my colleague Ron with Beth Phil 373 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:12.000 A:middle L:90% Lewis, he was a president of a company in 374 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:18.359 A:middle L:90% Chicago and so forth. It was Jim here was 375 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:23.559 A:middle L:90% uh huh. I mean I don't change name Jim 376 00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:29.359 A:middle L:90% Finn here, Donald healey from Syracuse. So these 377 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.450 A:middle L:90% were all people participating and we were getting well known 378 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:37.519 A:middle L:90% and as this as they moved on my feelings started 379 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.880 A:middle L:90% to change in the field also. I said you 380 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.970 A:middle L:90% know it isn't just audiovisual that's important when we talk 381 00:24:45.970 --> 00:24:49.180 A:middle L:90% of technology and I was learning from the people in 382 00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:53.990 A:middle L:90% industry is in Silicon Valley that the terms technology is 383 00:24:53.990 --> 00:24:56.769 A:middle L:90% a process, not just how to do it. 384 00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:03.299 A:middle L:90% And I started to think about other ways we can 385 00:25:03.309 --> 00:25:10.569 A:middle L:90% do things that a hey a company that is inventing 386 00:25:10.569 --> 00:25:15.710 A:middle L:90% something is helping to design And I think today about 387 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:19.829 A:middle L:90% the space vehicle and all the advanced stuff that they're 388 00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:25.369 A:middle L:90% dealing with has got a lot of elements of technology 389 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:29.269 A:middle L:90% to put together and how may the supply and Jim 390 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.250 A:middle L:90% Jim Finn talked about this theoretical and not get into 391 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:36.250 A:middle L:90% the guts of it. And what happened was I 392 00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:41.720 A:middle L:90% said you know it deals with planning and I are 393 00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:45.569 A:middle L:90% how you plan instruction. So if you're going to 394 00:25:45.569 --> 00:25:48.910 A:middle L:90% make a film, there should be some objective that 395 00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:52.049 A:middle L:90% relate to what the film is going to be doing 396 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.269 A:middle L:90% and then how that fits into the subject area, 397 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.349 A:middle L:90% science teacher and you're going to make a film about 398 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.670 A:middle L:90% birds and how they're able to fly and so forth 399 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:06.349 A:middle L:90% . You want to say no, what do you 400 00:26:06.349 --> 00:26:08.220 A:middle L:90% want the students to learn about that? So I 401 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:11.359 A:middle L:90% said there ought to be someone I call. I 402 00:26:11.369 --> 00:26:14.460 A:middle L:90% came up with the word instructional design And this was 403 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:21.529 A:middle L:90% in 19 19 71. My first book entitled instructional 404 00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:26.569 A:middle L:90% design, a plan for unit and course development and 405 00:26:26.569 --> 00:26:32.000 A:middle L:90% the format I had was very had my blinkers on 406 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:37.569 A:middle L:90% pretty much it had the whole series of steps I 407 00:26:37.569 --> 00:26:40.930 A:middle L:90% started from, you picked the topic in general purpose 408 00:26:40.930 --> 00:26:41.990 A:middle L:90% . Do you want to deal with? You look 409 00:26:41.990 --> 00:26:47.019 A:middle L:90% at the students as to their characteristics, which means 410 00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:49.349 A:middle L:90% which means the preparation for it? What are the 411 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.480 A:middle L:90% objectives you want to teach? What is the subject 412 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:59.049 A:middle L:90% content for the objectives? Pretest to give. So 413 00:26:59.059 --> 00:27:02.769 A:middle L:90% students will test, the teacher would test the students 414 00:27:03.210 --> 00:27:04.680 A:middle L:90% and the students would say, see I know all 415 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.849 A:middle L:90% that stuff. What do I have to study it 416 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.190 A:middle L:90% or these are the parts? I don't know and 417 00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:14.549 A:middle L:90% I need to now study that and fit them in 418 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.200 A:middle L:90% . And then what we call the teaching learning activities 419 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.859 A:middle L:90% and resources. And you think about what the teacher 420 00:27:21.869 --> 00:27:25.710 A:middle L:90% could present, what the students can learn by him 421 00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:30.769 A:middle L:90% or herself and what projects that students can have and 422 00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:33.359 A:middle L:90% in activities, problem solving applications and so forth. 423 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.190 A:middle L:90% I call that teaching learning activities and resources and the 424 00:27:38.190 --> 00:27:41.900 A:middle L:90% resources you need with it, what films, what 425 00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:45.750 A:middle L:90% places in the community and so on. And then 426 00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:49.990 A:middle L:90% evaluation and it was a linear list you come down 427 00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:52.460 A:middle L:90% and then isn't right. You keep coming back. 428 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.500 A:middle L:90% And I did that. And when I called the 429 00:27:56.509 --> 00:28:00.579 A:middle L:90% instructional design process in those days and as I worked 430 00:28:00.579 --> 00:28:06.740 A:middle L:90% with this, I came across a a person who 431 00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:11.549 A:middle L:90% is very thoughtful Canadian. The name was Marshall McLuhan 432 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:17.849 A:middle L:90% who came from Canada into the field of media and 433 00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:22.329 A:middle L:90% he had a a statement he made many times in 434 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:26.799 A:middle L:90% presentations at our national convention and elsewhere and he said 435 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:32.150 A:middle L:90% , we move into the future looking in a rear 436 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.769 A:middle L:90% view mirror. People have to think a moment. 437 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:37.880 A:middle L:90% What do you see when you look in the rear 438 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.690 A:middle L:90% view mirror where, where, where I've been, 439 00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:45.339 A:middle L:90% what I've done before. So old habits don't change 440 00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:48.960 A:middle L:90% easily. And people who are used to giving lectures 441 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:53.059 A:middle L:90% as professors are changing is quite different. I, 442 00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:57.980 A:middle L:90% I ran across an article from a recent paper and 443 00:28:57.990 --> 00:29:02.849 A:middle L:90% you folks have made many of you possibly heard record 444 00:29:02.849 --> 00:29:07.920 A:middle L:90% created the film name Salt. Com, K H 445 00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:14.289 A:middle L:90% A N, who he has has quote has a 446 00:29:14.299 --> 00:29:18.910 A:middle L:90% labor of love is sparking a revolution in online education 447 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:22.369 A:middle L:90% and he was in my son's a area of mountain 448 00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:27.589 A:middle L:90% view and so forth. Uh, uh, he 449 00:29:27.589 --> 00:29:36.579 A:middle L:90% is dealing primarily with students taking online courses, most 450 00:29:36.579 --> 00:29:40.420 A:middle L:90% of which are set up for self paced learning on 451 00:29:40.420 --> 00:29:48.670 A:middle L:90% their own and then and being done by technology and 452 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:53.380 A:middle L:90% he has 100,000 students around the world taking this and 453 00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:56.789 A:middle L:90% getting getting credits for it to, it's debatable. 454 00:29:56.789 --> 00:30:00.849 A:middle L:90% Some of the things he does. I wonder whether 455 00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:04.309 A:middle L:90% it's lecture and looking at videos and filling out of 456 00:30:04.309 --> 00:30:08.579 A:middle L:90% forms and so forth. And interestingly when I started 457 00:30:08.789 --> 00:30:15.339 A:middle L:90% teaching my instructional design class at SAN Jose State the 458 00:30:15.339 --> 00:30:18.700 A:middle L:90% students, it was a graduate course in our Construction 459 00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:22.579 A:middle L:90% Technology Master's Program And we would, we would meet 460 00:30:22.579 --> 00:30:26.470 A:middle L:90% from 7-10 on Monday nights for 15 weeks of the 461 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.160 A:middle L:90% semester. And the first night we got together, 462 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.200 A:middle L:90% students all came in and they got notebooks out and 463 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:33.690 A:middle L:90% when the right stuff professor tells him and I told 464 00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:37.480 A:middle L:90% him, I said, now this is the textbook 465 00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:38.559 A:middle L:90% we're going to use and it's in the book store 466 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:45.250 A:middle L:90% to get and we're going to spend the first five 467 00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:48.960 A:middle L:90% weeks of the semester or six weeks of the semester 468 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.569 A:middle L:90% studying the text and we're not gonna meet in class 469 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:57.160 A:middle L:90% at all. What what kind of course is that 470 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.480 A:middle L:90% ? I said you've got a responsibility student And this 471 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.220 A:middle L:90% could be 20 students and maybe a third of them 472 00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:08.220 A:middle L:90% are people training people from industry. We're taking the 473 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:12.230 A:middle L:90% master's program there and I said, Your job in 474 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.740 A:middle L:90% five weeks Is to study the 1st 10 chapters in 475 00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:19.960 A:middle L:90% the book, which are explaining what the instructional design 476 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:23.549 A:middle L:90% processes, how it works, what the elements are 477 00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:27.869 A:middle L:90% , how you can apply and you are to go 478 00:31:27.869 --> 00:31:30.980 A:middle L:90% through the book. And there are the end of 479 00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:33.750 A:middle L:90% each chapter. There are a whole series of review 480 00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:41.269 A:middle L:90% question and I said, and and they're just questions 481 00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:45.660 A:middle L:90% there. Now with each, with each for each 482 00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.430 A:middle L:90% of you, I'm going to give you a set 483 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.740 A:middle L:90% of six or 8, I can't remember six, 484 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:57.450 A:middle L:90% I think six or 8 audio cassettes which are audio 485 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:02.160 A:middle L:90% guides for you for those chapters you're really dealing with 486 00:32:02.539 --> 00:32:07.410 A:middle L:90% . You should listen to each chapter, start listening 487 00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:10.049 A:middle L:90% to the beginning tape on that chapter. Before you 488 00:32:10.049 --> 00:32:14.279 A:middle L:90% read the chapter, then it tells you to read 489 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.450 A:middle L:90% certain pages in the chapter from First pages to the 490 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:22.579 A:middle L:90% 1st 10 or 12 of the 20 pages and then 491 00:32:22.589 --> 00:32:25.000 A:middle L:90% do the review question and then come back to the 492 00:32:25.009 --> 00:32:28.660 A:middle L:90% tape. What's going to happen? I'm going to 493 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:30.920 A:middle L:90% give you feedback on the review question and you can 494 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:35.200 A:middle L:90% check your answer if you weren't right, review for 495 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.019 A:middle L:90% yourself, check the questions again and then check the 496 00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:39.619 A:middle L:90% answer to see if it comes out better And you 497 00:32:39.619 --> 00:32:43.450 A:middle L:90% will have five weeks to do this and I will 498 00:32:43.460 --> 00:32:46.160 A:middle L:90% be here in the classroom all of those five weeks 499 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:50.630 A:middle L:90% from 7-10. And if you can't make it, 500 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.359 A:middle L:90% if you're working and so forth, call me and 501 00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:54.910 A:middle L:90% we'll set an appointment up sometimes come to my office 502 00:32:54.910 --> 00:32:58.809 A:middle L:90% and work and you've got to do that and then 503 00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:00.440 A:middle L:90% guess what? You're going to take an exam from 504 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:05.170 A:middle L:90% me on those 10 chapters and you know what? 505 00:33:05.539 --> 00:33:07.269 A:middle L:90% You've got to get 90 on the exam to pass 506 00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:10.930 A:middle L:90% . And some students would say, And if we 507 00:33:10.930 --> 00:33:14.700 A:middle L:90% get 90 of the exam said, I said, 508 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:16.369 A:middle L:90% well give it a try and if you go through 509 00:33:16.369 --> 00:33:19.660 A:middle L:90% the review questions and they're not coming out right, 510 00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:22.720 A:middle L:90% do come in and visit with me and let's talk 511 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.119 A:middle L:90% about. And we started this and I said now 512 00:33:27.130 --> 00:33:29.609 A:middle L:90% after the five weeks we're all going to meet again 513 00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:34.250 A:middle L:90% And I'm hopefully that 90 of you have Got the 514 00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:37.400 A:middle L:90% 90 great on it. Some of you are going 515 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:38.819 A:middle L:90% to be going to drop outs. I know you're 516 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:40.940 A:middle L:90% not going to enjoy this. I don't want that 517 00:33:40.950 --> 00:33:44.640 A:middle L:90% pressure and so forth, but give it a good 518 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.490 A:middle L:90% try and let's go on. Then we're going to 519 00:33:45.490 --> 00:33:52.150 A:middle L:90% apply this. You're going to become a resource subject 520 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:53.200 A:middle L:90% . You want to take a subject that's important to 521 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:57.160 A:middle L:90% you that you know about and you're going to work 522 00:33:57.170 --> 00:34:00.490 A:middle L:90% with one of your colleagues here and do the instructional 523 00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:04.690 A:middle L:90% design process to develop instruction for that topic. You 524 00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:07.400 A:middle L:90% got the subject expert now and the other person is 525 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.530 A:middle L:90% the instructional designer and show us how it works. 526 00:34:10.530 --> 00:34:14.440 A:middle L:90% And then you come back in together and we present 527 00:34:14.449 --> 00:34:17.110 A:middle L:90% these to class and discuss and go on and realize 528 00:34:17.300 --> 00:34:21.150 A:middle L:90% you're not just giving lectures. You're dealing with self 529 00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:24.280 A:middle L:90% paced learning by students and interactive activities among students and 530 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:30.150 A:middle L:90% instructor. And so so go to work and it 531 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:31.940 A:middle L:90% worked fine and that students used to come in and 532 00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:36.460 A:middle L:90% tell me this is wonderful. I can get this 533 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:38.289 A:middle L:90% and I can study this myself at my pace. 534 00:34:38.739 --> 00:34:42.369 A:middle L:90% I can review it and I have questions I can 535 00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:45.239 A:middle L:90% ask you or ask another student who would help me 536 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:47.920 A:middle L:90% . And it went on like this just fine and 537 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:51.440 A:middle L:90% someone would say to me which I kept smiling when 538 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.489 A:middle L:90% they said this, they said you know in my 539 00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:57.960 A:middle L:90% instruction that I'm giving a course I would like to 540 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.920 A:middle L:90% use. Mhm. Where I can have a reference 541 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:02.690 A:middle L:90% guy here in texas but I want to call it 542 00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:07.389 A:middle L:90% a textbook and have them study this and review and 543 00:35:07.389 --> 00:35:09.380 A:middle L:90% then work on it And then we would help them 544 00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:12.750 A:middle L:90% and they would get it because you know, you 545 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.090 A:middle L:90% deal with people that are in the manufacturing so you 546 00:35:15.090 --> 00:35:17.889 A:middle L:90% don't want them to create 80 answering the question when 547 00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:22.659 A:middle L:90% you're 100%. So people would start doing this more 548 00:35:22.690 --> 00:35:25.230 A:middle L:90% and it caught on more and more and that's where 549 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.949 A:middle L:90% we got out to do it more. That's a 550 00:35:28.949 --> 00:35:32.280 A:middle L:90% terrific overview of uh your contributions to the field dairy 551 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:37.670 A:middle L:90% and a real treasure trove of publications you've assembled there 552 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.030 A:middle L:90% . And so you really helped initiate the whole concept 553 00:35:42.030 --> 00:35:45.510 A:middle L:90% of instructional design. I hope so. There were 554 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:47.449 A:middle L:90% people we're doing and I told you Jim Finn, 555 00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:52.159 A:middle L:90% he wrote about it. But he always gave Jim 556 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.550 A:middle L:90% never went into the technology in an application sort of 557 00:35:55.550 --> 00:35:59.170 A:middle L:90% way. But we like to hear from him, 558 00:35:59.739 --> 00:36:02.019 A:middle L:90% but the fellas who picked it up and applied it 559 00:36:02.019 --> 00:36:05.690 A:middle L:90% at florida state, uh, did I mentioned roger 560 00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:07.949 A:middle L:90% coffee. He was a name I had on my 561 00:36:07.949 --> 00:36:12.539 A:middle L:90% list who applied this stuff so well in his way 562 00:36:12.929 --> 00:36:16.940 A:middle L:90% his way there too. So they yes, they 563 00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:19.980 A:middle L:90% picked it up for me and I'm just pleased to 564 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:23.010 A:middle L:90% see it move, keep moving around. And so 565 00:36:23.019 --> 00:36:25.920 A:middle L:90% what do you think was the greatest accomplishment of your 566 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:30.599 A:middle L:90% career and why? Well, it's really that instructional 567 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:36.199 A:middle L:90% design to the instructional design process that that that picked 568 00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.550 A:middle L:90% up and came about and people saw the way to 569 00:36:38.550 --> 00:36:43.659 A:middle L:90% apply it and they were able to use the marshal 570 00:36:44.030 --> 00:36:46.699 A:middle L:90% , not use his but understand that you don't look 571 00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:49.670 A:middle L:90% in the rear view mirror when you're teaching, you 572 00:36:49.670 --> 00:36:52.960 A:middle L:90% look in the future, the world has changed and 573 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.449 A:middle L:90% right now, you know, I feel like the 574 00:36:55.449 --> 00:36:59.969 A:middle L:90% guy that used to run something and ran it and 575 00:36:59.969 --> 00:37:02.539 A:middle L:90% other people took over and advanced it and all the 576 00:37:02.539 --> 00:37:05.119 A:middle L:90% guy keeps running and say, wait, wait, 577 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.579 A:middle L:90% I'm your leader, wait for me. And that's 578 00:37:07.579 --> 00:37:08.570 A:middle L:90% where I am. Now when I when I think 579 00:37:08.570 --> 00:37:15.630 A:middle L:90% about that that Kangai who's who's got his his stuff 580 00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:19.159 A:middle L:90% now online, I'd like to look at some of 581 00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:21.980 A:middle L:90% his courses and see how they run. And are 582 00:37:21.980 --> 00:37:23.320 A:middle L:90% we? Are we Is this the guy that talk 583 00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:27.429 A:middle L:90% at the convention that we're having? I would think 584 00:37:27.699 --> 00:37:30.289 A:middle L:90% and talk about his approach to it because that's where 585 00:37:30.289 --> 00:37:31.480 A:middle L:90% the world's gone. I mean, it's coming to 586 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.389 A:middle L:90% the point where where schools are not going to be 587 00:37:35.389 --> 00:37:37.650 A:middle L:90% needed period, we've said that before way many years 588 00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:40.440 A:middle L:90% ago, but it isn't happened, but now it's 589 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:44.869 A:middle L:90% happening with online and opening it up in all sorts 590 00:37:44.869 --> 00:37:49.280 A:middle L:90% of ways. So I feel I'm I'm lucky to 591 00:37:49.289 --> 00:37:52.840 A:middle L:90% be early leader and there are many others, but 592 00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:59.130 A:middle L:90% from here on it's it's stand back and get out 593 00:37:59.130 --> 00:38:00.449 A:middle L:90% of the way and let the world change and it's 594 00:38:00.449 --> 00:38:04.599 A:middle L:90% going to change more and more in our business. 595 00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:07.239 A:middle L:90% Well, speaking of online education and future trends, 596 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:13.510 A:middle L:90% what do you think future professionals could learn from a 597 00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:15.489 A:middle L:90% look in the rear view mirror at the history of 598 00:38:15.489 --> 00:38:20.369 A:middle L:90% some of the trends and issues that you've discussed, 599 00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:22.260 A:middle L:90% You know, I think, and I think I'm 600 00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:24.369 A:middle L:90% just I'm just a piece of that process. Uh 601 00:38:24.369 --> 00:38:29.320 A:middle L:90% huh. See, I have to say say this 602 00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:32.099 A:middle L:90% , Mhm. When we when we when we got 603 00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:35.809 A:middle L:90% started with this, and I have to say charlie 604 00:38:35.809 --> 00:38:37.539 A:middle L:90% rangel of another one, some of the indiana folks 605 00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:42.639 A:middle L:90% and others that came about and charlie and I worked 606 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.010 A:middle L:90% together in my experience, I applied this stuff, 607 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:50.429 A:middle L:90% this is what I was doing. And a lot 608 00:38:50.429 --> 00:38:52.730 A:middle L:90% of my colleagues I found out we're on the talking 609 00:38:52.730 --> 00:38:57.559 A:middle L:90% level about and I don't know, I asked, 610 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.139 A:middle L:90% charlie is just kiddingly charlie, do you teach all 611 00:39:00.150 --> 00:39:02.909 A:middle L:90% in lectures in your class? What we have discussions 612 00:39:02.909 --> 00:39:06.619 A:middle L:90% too, you know? But he doesn't say anything 613 00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:09.269 A:middle L:90% about technology in what's happening. So I don't know 614 00:39:09.269 --> 00:39:13.539 A:middle L:90% where folks are going in the future that way. 615 00:39:13.550 --> 00:39:19.619 A:middle L:90% Because we had set up the the division of systemic 616 00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:23.489 A:middle L:90% , systemic change in the field and all, but 617 00:39:23.489 --> 00:39:29.090 A:middle L:90% I don't hear much of that happening that way people 618 00:39:29.090 --> 00:39:31.070 A:middle L:90% are applying things, but I don't and I don't 619 00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:35.400 A:middle L:90% see again, I'm out, I'm out of circulation 620 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.389 A:middle L:90% pretty much. But what impact is act having another 621 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:45.440 A:middle L:90% national and international organizations in what we do. And 622 00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:49.849 A:middle L:90% from a research standpoint, they are because 86 emphasis 623 00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:53.019 A:middle L:90% in so many ways is on graduate students and their 624 00:39:53.019 --> 00:39:58.230 A:middle L:90% research and I re tech trends. It's really graduate 625 00:39:58.230 --> 00:40:01.489 A:middle L:90% student articles dealing with their dissertation on what they've been 626 00:40:01.489 --> 00:40:06.929 A:middle L:90% doing and how it can affect education and so, 627 00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:07.940 A:middle L:90% But I want to see I want to see the 628 00:40:08.309 --> 00:40:13.440 A:middle L:90% the real stories of how we have affected it, 629 00:40:13.809 --> 00:40:17.940 A:middle L:90% where we have impact on the Department of Education. 630 00:40:19.409 --> 00:40:22.230 A:middle L:90% You know, the no child left behind concept, 631 00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:25.119 A:middle L:90% which doesn't deal with what we're dealing with. We're 632 00:40:25.130 --> 00:40:30.579 A:middle L:90% here at all. They don't think of, it's 633 00:40:30.579 --> 00:40:32.590 A:middle L:90% the rear view mirror stuff. It's the same old 634 00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:36.940 A:middle L:90% practices, but you've got to speak louder to them 635 00:40:37.409 --> 00:40:39.670 A:middle L:90% or run faster and it isn't it isn't doing it 636 00:40:39.940 --> 00:40:43.739 A:middle L:90% . I don't have enough knowledge about some of the 637 00:40:43.750 --> 00:40:47.139 A:middle L:90% technologies now to be able to help people. But 638 00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:51.690 A:middle L:90% all right, I have been asked to meet with 639 00:40:51.690 --> 00:40:55.929 A:middle L:90% any and and throw out questions that could stimulate some 640 00:40:55.940 --> 00:41:01.469 A:middle L:90% rethinking where we should be part of the the changes 641 00:41:01.469 --> 00:41:07.110 A:middle L:90% in technology, changing impacts of technology within this. 642 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:12.869 A:middle L:90% You listen to an interview on the news hour on 643 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:20.269 A:middle L:90% PBS Bye Education. Mhm. What's his name in 644 00:41:20.269 --> 00:41:22.139 A:middle L:90% the Department of Education? Can't think of it. 645 00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:25.650 A:middle L:90% That runs things. And what he discusses is never 646 00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:30.659 A:middle L:90% everything dealing with this kind of media change and how 647 00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:35.280 A:middle L:90% how you can change away from the teacher in control 648 00:41:35.809 --> 00:41:37.440 A:middle L:90% to where the students control much of their learning. 649 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.730 A:middle L:90% And the teacher performs another function. We don't hear 650 00:41:40.730 --> 00:41:46.579 A:middle L:90% that in the education involved here. You know, 651 00:41:46.670 --> 00:41:53.559 A:middle L:90% there was the convention before, during or after mine 652 00:41:53.940 --> 00:42:00.420 A:middle L:90% in which we try to take the conventions away from 653 00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:06.019 A:middle L:90% from from lecture presentations at the convention to have some 654 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:13.119 A:middle L:90% uh video that set up that the attendees could review 655 00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:17.429 A:middle L:90% before the presentation was scheduled and they would get the 656 00:42:17.429 --> 00:42:22.480 A:middle L:90% message that the presenter has to offer and then presents 657 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:27.139 A:middle L:90% his job was to form small groups of discussion and 658 00:42:27.139 --> 00:42:30.179 A:middle L:90% then come back, present their summaries on his topic 659 00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:32.360 A:middle L:90% . And so and let him talk about how effective 660 00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:36.019 A:middle L:90% and so forth. We tried that, we tried 661 00:42:36.019 --> 00:42:38.280 A:middle L:90% that in California a couple of times with film strips 662 00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:45.480 A:middle L:90% that people would look at beforehand sound filmstrips and and 663 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:50.050 A:middle L:90% see how that would affect the changes in the in 664 00:42:50.050 --> 00:42:55.420 A:middle L:90% the in the programs. And there was interest shown 665 00:42:55.900 --> 00:43:00.619 A:middle L:90% , but not much pick up after whoever was running 666 00:43:00.619 --> 00:43:04.550 A:middle L:90% in charge of the convention director would do this. 667 00:43:04.550 --> 00:43:06.630 A:middle L:90% And the next time the guy didn't care about doing 668 00:43:06.630 --> 00:43:08.420 A:middle L:90% it a he or she at all. And I 669 00:43:08.420 --> 00:43:13.099 A:middle L:90% still say we're still in some of those areas jerry 670 00:43:13.099 --> 00:43:16.349 A:middle L:90% , that was a fantastic review of your career path 671 00:43:16.349 --> 00:43:21.239 A:middle L:90% and you're amazing contributions to our field. Tell us 672 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:22.119 A:middle L:90% a little bit about what you've been doing recently. 673 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.210 A:middle L:90% Well as you get older, you've got to think 674 00:43:28.219 --> 00:43:30.289 A:middle L:90% more about what's going to happen with your life and 675 00:43:30.289 --> 00:43:34.030 A:middle L:90% what you need to do if you're interested in keeping 676 00:43:34.030 --> 00:43:38.179 A:middle L:90% it going. And mhm as I said earlier, 677 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:45.199 A:middle L:90% I've been thinking about well living For many years and 678 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:49.900 A:middle L:90% there are three components of healthy living. One is 679 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.630 A:middle L:90% exercise, which we tell people you got to do 680 00:43:52.889 --> 00:43:58.030 A:middle L:90% not just sit and watch television. Secondly, you've 681 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:00.030 A:middle L:90% got to eat properly, good nutrition and third, 682 00:44:00.030 --> 00:44:04.920 A:middle L:90% you've got to keep an active mind which is, 683 00:44:05.389 --> 00:44:08.010 A:middle L:90% is helping you keep away from Alzheimer's and that sort 684 00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:12.079 A:middle L:90% of stuff. One last question, how would you 685 00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:15.849 A:middle L:90% like to be remembered within the profession of instructional design 686 00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:19.920 A:middle L:90% and technology? I can only say you have to 687 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:24.380 A:middle L:90% look at my, my, my publications and those 688 00:44:24.610 --> 00:44:30.159 A:middle L:90% that are of the later dates dealing from When I 689 00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.710 A:middle L:90% say the way the dates because I retired in 88 690 00:44:32.829 --> 00:44:37.269 A:middle L:90% , so dealing with the 70s and 80's knows that 691 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:42.829 A:middle L:90% seem to apply and that our people in the field 692 00:44:42.829 --> 00:44:49.889 A:middle L:90% can see efforts to include in the new technology theory 693 00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:53.309 A:middle L:90% as well as the operations would feel that I've contributed 694 00:44:53.309 --> 00:44:59.340 A:middle L:90% something to them that for the with those resources that 695 00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:01.769 A:middle L:90% can still be applied today, I feel thank you 696 00:45:01.769 --> 00:45:05.510 A:middle L:90% so much during our pleasure to be with you.