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All right. Welcome, everyone to open access week

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at Virginia Tech. We had one event this morning

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. This is our big event, though. Forum

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. We have seven events this week. Thank you

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, Mark. Every year, I think the sixth

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or seventh year that we've had over a week here

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at Virginia Tech. Um, we have a number

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of presentations throughout the week about where you can post

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your publications online. The services that we offer here

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at Virginia Tech, which are on this bookmark that

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you can pick up. And some of those services

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are repository detect works. We also have a data

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repository detect data. We have a open access fund

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that supports open access publishing in those journals that require

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fee, we also publish journals ourselves using it's open

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source software and on our servers. We also provide

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a copyright, uh, guidance in the libraries as

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well. So those are just a few of the

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services that we offer in the libraries to support open

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access of carrot, Virginia Tech. We're also very

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fortunate to have a visiting librarian here from South Africa

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who is going to give a presentation Wednesday about access

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to research in South Africa. um so that would

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be a very interesting perspective. One of the primary

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rationales behind open access is that everyone around the world

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will be able to access research without any barriers.

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Um, and then later in the week, we

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have a presentation on our open access fund. If

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you encounter OA journals that have a fee, most

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do not have a fee, But but some of

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you and you need to meet that feed. Then

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we have a fund that can help you publishing an

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open access journal. So the schedule for the week

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is up here for, uh, faculty who might

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have registered through L. I. We have a

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sign up sheet, and we also have a sign

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up for the open VT email list, which is

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an email list, low volume list where we send

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out notices about events like this about open access,

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open data and open educational resources going on on the

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Virginia Tech campus. So if you'd like to sign

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up for either of those, we have a sign

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up sheet here and the list of library services here

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. So again, welcome. And thank you very

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much for being here. And I'd like to introduce

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Peter Potter, our director of publishing strategy at university

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libraries. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for coming out

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tonight. Um, I know many of you required

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the year, so we have a We have a

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great panel tonight. I'm really happy with the group

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that we have. Um, I'll just quickly mention

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we have, uh, Monty Abbas, associate professor

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of civil engineering. Um, Karen Paula Deen DePaul

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. You all know Brian Whole who is founder and

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CEO of Ubiquity Press, which is an open access

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publisher. And he brings a real practical perspective to

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our discussions tonight. Um, Siddhartha Roy Ghd candidate

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and Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering involved in the

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Flint Water project. And Mohammed, science PhD candidate

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in the Department of Computer Science and coming off a

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year as our graduate student representative on the board of

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visitors. So he's been busy in his time year

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. Um, so tonight, it's I want this

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to be really pretty much open discussion. Um,

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and but to start, I want to give a

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little bit of background my own. My own background

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is in university press publishing. Um, and I've

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been following these developments in areas of scholarly publishing for

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many years, and what I want to give you

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is have a few slides that give you sort of

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the the background. Some of the numbers give you

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a sense of how big an industry scholarly publishing is

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, and some of the numbers around open access so

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that we have some framework with which to have this

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conversation. So, um, I find these numbers

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, um, just sometimes hard to get your head

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around, but, um, you're looking at scholarly

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publishing it globally as a. These numbers are purely

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estimates. But as I read the literature on as

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you see these numbers again and again, we're talking

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about$28 billion business globe globally. You see journals

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makes up 40% of that. Roughly books is still

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a very small part of it, 16% and the

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rest of it, 44% is in all the other

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things around scholarly communication. And if you look at

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market share and you can see the U. S

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. Is still the primary mm as the biggest share

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of the market by far. Um, but China

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, um, is definitely growing. They are the

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largest producer research papers. It's still in terms of

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market share It's still a smaller percent. Mm hmm

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. Um, to give you a sense of that

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$28 billion figure. I always like to use this

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to give you a sense of the U. S

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. Music industry, um, is around six billion

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. The box office sales on a yearly basis is

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around 9 to 10 billion, and you can see

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globally that 28 billion and then the U. S

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share of that is around 14 15 billion. So

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it's a bigger business than almost then Music and movies

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combined. Um, and it's important to understand the

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players in this arena. Um, I'm sure that's

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becoming more and more complicated, and Ryan might have

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ideas. And who else is part of this equation

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now? But do you think the most basic terms

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? We have the researchers you as both the authors

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and the readers of the consumers of the content publishers

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and publishers increasingly varied with scholarly societies, academic,

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university presses, commercial publishers, libraries, our key

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player, and still 68. 75% of journal revenues

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, which is the biggest part of of the business

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, come from library subscriptions and then research funders.

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Which all of you are you familiar with or will

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soon become familiar with. Um, when you look

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at journals, this I find it really interesting.

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So I was trying to figure out how many journals

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are published in the world. And, um,

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there are lots of different estimates about this. But

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the number that you see cited most often now is

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that we passed the 30,000 mark so that those are

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30,000 active scholarly journals in the world. And you

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can see the some of the statistics on revenue the

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number of articles published per year to 2.5 million 5000

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journal publishers. Um, and it's important to see

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of these four publishers account for 40% of that market

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. L Severe Springer, Wiley and Taylor in France's

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. That's a huge, huge monopoly. They have

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, um, and some figures there on a number

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of active researchers and the global spending on R and

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D. Damn, um, again thinking about journals

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, Um, it's interesting to see that, or

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to think about it, that the journal remains the

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primary venue for publishing scholarship, despite the fact that

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it's really a print based medium. And, um

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, in many ways, we're still tied to the

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idea of the journal, as it was originally considered

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originally conceived, and it started with two functions.

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One was a way to disseminate scholarship, and the

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other was a way to register who who discovered something

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. So from the very first journals it was,

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You know, if you if there was a competition

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or any any dispute over who discovered something, whoever

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got into publication first, that's how you would determine

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it. Over time, we've developed quality control in

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the form of peer review, and peer review is

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really a modern, I think, the 20th century

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development. And here I think the fourth one is

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what I think is really the most important factor for

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what we're talking about. Tonight is the key indicator

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for career advancement. That's how you get grants,

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how you get tenure and promotion. And when you

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think about moving from journals from a print environment to

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a digital environment, all of these things dissemination,

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registration of discovery, quality control doesn't matter what format

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you're doing it in. What really holds us back

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is this career advancement that the idea of prestige journals

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that people want to publish him and they are still

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tied to the ideas of subscription based in many cases

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, uh, subscription based journals. Um, I

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put this in here just It's a long slide,

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but for this public good angle. And this is

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for those of you who may not know, Budapest

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Open The access initiative was one of the first early

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statements, perhaps the first early statement on the open

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access move movement from February of 2000 and two.

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And here's the kind of the the high in the

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sky kind of version of Here's what we see as

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what's possible with open access. Why there is an

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argument for open access and every I think we all

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keep coming back to the principles here, Um,

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and in the U. S. I think what

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really got us going, um, was has been

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the question of mandates. And 2013, the White

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House Office of Science and Technology policy, um made

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it a requirement that if you've received federal funding,

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um, to a certain amount, you must make

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your research available, open access or publicly accessible.

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I think it's the term that they use, but

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that really changed the equation. All of a sudden

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, it becomes not just something we might want to

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try to do become something that's required if you're getting

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federal research dollars, Um, and what we're beginning

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to see now is a result of that is the

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beginning of a growing infrastructure for open access to happen

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. So Pub Med Central. It's probably the biggest

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repository right now for biomedical research, primarily. And

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so, if you are doing research and you're getting

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funding from any of these places, they all now

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have open access policies, and many of them for

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if you deposited at that central or public sectoral will

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qualify for meeting the open access requirements of all of

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these places. But in addition, many of these

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have their own their own repositories. We have chorus

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, which is, uh, an attempt. We're

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beginning to see these efforts to create a A some

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structure to make it possible for all of these open

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access repositories to be connected. Um, but as

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we look at it right now, we still have

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a long way to go here again. This is

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it's a little bit hard to define numbers here,

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but to show you roughly about 30% of journal articles

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published right now, or some form of open access

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still over 70% that aren't open access. So,

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um, that's the background I wanted to give you

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. Just leave this up here because this has some

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. I just started jotting down some of the rationales

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for open access that I've been looking at some of

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the barriers. Um, And as you think about

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questions that you want to ask, I'll keep this

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up here when? Now I want to open it

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up to the panel and the questions. But I

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wanted to start with and a friend of you read

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inside Higher ed. Today, every year inside Iraq

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releases a the fact that they survey a survey faculty

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in the U. S. Their attitudes towards technology

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and one of the things that they focus on the

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scholarly publication and the question of open access journals.

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And one in this survey. 50% of the faculty

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surveyed said, but they consider subscription based journals more

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authoritative and open access generals 50%. The other 50%

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see no difference or see that they publish in either

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one 50%. Still seen are skeptical about open access

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. I wanted to open up the question because I

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hear it here on campus quite a bit. There's

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, I think, skepticism in many quarters on open

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access journals is that a justified concerns Whoever wants to

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jump it, I can start by saying that we

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get a lot of advertisements, sometimes from some of

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the open access journals that we don't know if they

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are legitimate. So that's one of the concerns.

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Maybe that feeds in the skepticism and the fact that

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I could counter that a little bit by saying I

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received. I'm a researcher still myself, when I

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receive a lot of emails from subscription journals as well

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, where I'm not sure how much of a leadership

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those journals really have or how legitimate they are as

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well. So there are a lot of people who

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are very actively promote. There's Jeffrey Bill, this

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one who has his Bills list of blacklisted journals,

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and he only concentrates on open access journals. He

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refuses to look equally at this thing. Closed access

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journals mask. Are they behaving ethically as well?

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I think you have to have a balanced view.

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I've had some very bad experiences of subscription publishers in

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the past, from the perspective of those graduate students

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who have talked with back of the their advisors have

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there as the subject come up at all the question

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of publishing and open access journals. What's your sense

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of that? Yeah. So it's actually come up

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and lab meeting is quite a bit, Um,

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there is still this negative oh view of open access

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. And so we want mhm. It's kind of

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a second second round, so we don't get into

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the top tier close. That says journalism. Maybe

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we'll publish it in one of those open access.

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Hard time are open open once at that angle.

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Okay, so it's still kind of look at sort

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of glasses. How many of you have published an

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open access? I wanted you to know that because

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there's some of them are publishing. And it is

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Do you? When doing that? Was that a

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decision that you were? You did that willingly or

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what was your thinking obviously open access? Yeah.

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Yeah. Anyway, it was intentional. What?

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It have the broadest reach for the work that I

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I didn't Okay, um yes, that these microphones

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just help for the students that are in northern Virginia

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and anybody else that's on WebEx. Brian, you

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were mentioning this morning that the issue of quality when

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it comes to open access, it shouldn't have anything

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to do with open access because it's really a question

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of format rather than quality. It's a distribution methods

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. We do exactly the same things with open access

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journals. We peer review content exactly the same way

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we types it and copy of the article is exactly

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the same way. We send them to the same

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indexes, well, even apply for impact factors and

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things like that. Um, there's really no difference

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. The only difference is the business model is a

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bit different. People pay up front for the work

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that's done, but only once and then the contents

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free. And it's more broadly distributed. So the

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big quality difference, really is that you're not.

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You're not limiting the distribution of the work after it's

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been published to me. But as an open access

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publisher, we go out of our way to do

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more than the big legacy publishers do. So we

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, for example, when we publish books, we

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peer review them, whereas companies like Elsevier don't peer

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review their books. So we actually try to go

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a few steps further and we make it really,

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really obvious so that we can try and counter those

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perceptions. And if I can jump in because back

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to this discussion with the advisor when you want to

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publish something in an open access journal and it was

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intentional. But then in the discussion, there were

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two steps. The first step is to to educate

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them about what would happen. Access. Add to

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my research because the counter argument was would be like

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if your committee or even if you're applying for a

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job, they may look down to the open access

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journals. But on the other side, I kept

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talking about how how our work would be more accessible

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so that people can incite it more so that maybe

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the H Index can increase and people and it actually

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gets some numbers about how many people actually saw your

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article, how many people read it and how many

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people downloaded it. So all of these insights are

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more available when you are publishing open access journal.

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So that was the first step. The second step

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after he said okay was okay, but this requires

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us to pay money. So if you don't have

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money to pay for this period to find a source

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. So it was, um my my role,

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actually, to explore the options. And then I

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I knew that President has some funding, so that

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was the next step to tell him. Okay,

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so if you're okay with this, we can get

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some funding from the university. But I'm not sure

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if this is the case with universities to so maybe

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some other institutions don't have this, um, funding

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. Maybe Virginia Tech will need more funding for more

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students to publish an open access journals. So generally

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speaking, as these two steps that for whatever grass

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, she didn't want to have this conversation with your

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advisor. They should be well aware of what advantage

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that they can get from publishing an open access journals

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and how they can fund this, um, publication

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for publishing process. Yeah. Um, um,

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Gale can speak to that. We have the open

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access fund here. You might say how much it

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is now as compared to when we started three years

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ago. Virginia Tech has an open access to pensions

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paid article processing charges, coalition of an access journal

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. And we started this as a pilot podcast about

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four years ago, we had$24,000 for a pilot

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project. This year our funding is$100,000 but that's

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for this fiscal year. That means it started in

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July. We've already allocated 50% of that month.

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What? But at the same time, I want

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to say that we in the past we've been able

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to fund all of the articles that requested funding,

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even though it went beyond what we were. So

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it's really Mm. In fact, Philip and I

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, another colleague, did a survey of research libraries

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in North America to see who had open access funds

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. And what did we find out? That a

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small percentage, 33%. About a third of the

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of the libraries that answered are serving. So we're

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not talking very many. So Virginia Tech is a

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very special place in this regard. Um, what

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? What does everyone think of the? Are you

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familiar with the concept of the article processing charge?

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And I'm curious what people think of that, because

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that is, that's the big difference between you know

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how you fund it is. With open access publishing

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, you have to fund it on the front end

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rather than the back end through subscriptions. So what

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many journals are now doing, They don't all do

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it. But somehow you have to pay the piper

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. And the way it's done typically is through article

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processing charges. And now these charges can be$12,000

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in article. So the idea is, I think

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, supposedly, that if you're getting research dollars in

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many cases you can use money that comes with research

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funding to pay for the article processing charges. But

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that's not always the case, or you're not always

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going to have that access to that money. So

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I have a feeling that is part of what contributes

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to some of the skepticism around. Open access.

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Is this idea of having to pay to get your

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article published? Peter, just say one. Um

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, if you'd like to know more about the fund

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and how you apply for it and he's eligible,

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we're gonna be doing a session on Friday afternoon,

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so it's an open access schedule. If you want

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to come and find out more, you can actually

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bring your laptop. And if you've got an article

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, you want to give it a try or you

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can just kind of do a driver and see what

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? The application process of flight areas, um,

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thoughts about the article processing charges. That's something you're

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familiar with. Or, um, that for those

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of you who have published an open access terms,

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did you pay an author processing? He won.

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The good thing is that you can negotiate the price

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. Um, but again, you do have to

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pay for the thing. And there's no getting around

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the fact, But I think, you know,

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we need to step back for a second and look

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at, uh, the values were investing when we

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put the money in. I mean, not all

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projects need to be open access. Uh, you

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know, and some people might counter that we need

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everything out there. But if their projects are ready

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to public health, for example, of the environment

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, uh, they can I mean, we can

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find either the policy so that those articles, you

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know, get some how we pay less, or

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there's funding allocated for those. Um, so an

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example that I can give is we recently published a

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piece about a month ago in a journal. Uh

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, it wasn't perverse. incentives in academic research.

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So I think you guys talked about it in class

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, and what was amazing is we wanted the article

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to get out as much as possible. So we

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paid the fees upfront, and, uh, we

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I think in about eight days, about 200,000 people

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read it. So it became the number one article

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of 2016 in that journal in eight days. The

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paradox says we were asking people to be skeptical about

412
00:24:48.019 --> 00:24:52.329 A:middle L:90%
metrics. And here I am telling about how great

413
00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:55.309 A:middle L:90%
paper did on on one metric. But I think

414
00:24:55.309 --> 00:24:56.670 A:middle L:90%
, yeah, I mean, if you have a

415
00:24:56.670 --> 00:25:00.559 A:middle L:90%
specific projects that appeal to a large base that can

416
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.380 A:middle L:90%
benefit a large base citizen science projects, for example

417
00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:07.380 A:middle L:90%
, or a variety of defense things. Uh So

418
00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:08.849 A:middle L:90%
the point is, if you have projects that can

419
00:25:08.849 --> 00:25:11.349 A:middle L:90%
benefit a lot of people, it actually makes sense

420
00:25:11.349 --> 00:25:15.339 A:middle L:90%
to actually find the money or find a way to

421
00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:18.440 A:middle L:90%
get those into open access journals. Christine, I'm

422
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.240 A:middle L:90%
I'm interested. Do you? When you think about

423
00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:27.549 A:middle L:90%
the future of of scholarly publishing that the model around

424
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:32.509 A:middle L:90%
paying to publish upfront, do you think that is

425
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.960 A:middle L:90%
a legitimate way to fund publishing in the future.

426
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.450 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, I would like to have no payment,

427
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:47.460 A:middle L:90%
but that is not necessarily the best business model.

428
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:49.359 A:middle L:90%
Uh, so I think we may need to do

429
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.329 A:middle L:90%
that as long as the business model is such that

430
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:57.230 A:middle L:90%
it requires some kind of payment to, um to

431
00:25:57.230 --> 00:26:00.210 A:middle L:90%
get the articles out there. There are other ways

432
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:04.319 A:middle L:90%
, um, and in in the couple thoughts flying

433
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:10.710 A:middle L:90%
through my head is not all scholars have to pay

434
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:14.220 A:middle L:90%
to publish. I mean, that's in certain fields

435
00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.700 A:middle L:90%
. There is the payment. Um uh, and

436
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:18.799 A:middle L:90%
so that is a difference that we need to.

437
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.150 A:middle L:90%
I think you, uh, keep in mind as

438
00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:23.829 A:middle L:90%
well. Um, and there are other ways of

439
00:26:23.829 --> 00:26:27.269 A:middle L:90%
getting some information out. Besides the pay for publishing

440
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:30.869 A:middle L:90%
then. And I I actually I'd like to ask

441
00:26:30.869 --> 00:26:37.509 A:middle L:90%
more about what kind of peer review. How possible

442
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.789 A:middle L:90%
is it to eliminate some of the funding? Um

443
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.650 A:middle L:90%
, what would happen to the quality control? Are

444
00:26:45.650 --> 00:26:48.569 A:middle L:90%
there ways that we can think about still having the

445
00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:51.869 A:middle L:90%
quality control? Um, and I think there are

446
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:52.740 A:middle L:90%
, you know, so that we can, you

447
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:55.890 A:middle L:90%
know, share. You know, the information.

448
00:26:55.900 --> 00:26:56.750 A:middle L:90%
I mean, I would like to have it out

449
00:26:56.750 --> 00:27:02.799 A:middle L:90%
there so people can interact with the data. Um

450
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:03.759 A:middle L:90%
, and the colleague from you, via I think

451
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.309 A:middle L:90%
he is. Maybe somebody could talk a little bit

452
00:27:07.309 --> 00:27:11.710 A:middle L:90%
more about what he's doing over there, because yeah

453
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.170 A:middle L:90%
, prison, right, and and the way some

454
00:27:14.170 --> 00:27:17.349 A:middle L:90%
of that information is being shared as well. Mhm

455
00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:21.269 A:middle L:90%
. I'm Brian. I can defend the A P

456
00:27:21.269 --> 00:27:22.940 A:middle L:90%
. C a little bit well, and I agree

457
00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:26.460 A:middle L:90%
with everything. All that you have said that the

458
00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:27.559 A:middle L:90%
the article processing shows we have, we do exactly

459
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.529 A:middle L:90%
the same thing other publishers do. But our PCs

460
00:27:30.529 --> 00:27:33.319 A:middle L:90%
$400 not 4000. And the difference is we don't

461
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.950 A:middle L:90%
have shareholders who expect us to make 40% profit.

462
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.019 A:middle L:90%
Um, and we'll fire the CEO, which is

463
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:42.990 A:middle L:90%
me if we don't do it. So you know

464
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.180 A:middle L:90%
, those publishers are massively overcharging. That's and so

465
00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:48.680 A:middle L:90%
I don't I can't defend on a PC that's over

466
00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:51.759 A:middle L:90%
$1500 or something like that. Some of them have

467
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:52.890 A:middle L:90%
more legacy costs and things that they have to go

468
00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:56.670 A:middle L:90%
for it. But a PC and principle is probably

469
00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:59.410 A:middle L:90%
the most cost efficient way you can charge for publishing

470
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:02.049 A:middle L:90%
because you're only charging once for what you actually do

471
00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:04.150 A:middle L:90%
So we only spend$400 on managing peer review,

472
00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:07.730 A:middle L:90%
doing the typesetting, editorial support and so forth.

473
00:28:07.730 --> 00:28:11.730 A:middle L:90%
And that's it. Um, after that, everything

474
00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:15.940 A:middle L:90%
is free. So under the current model subscription journals

475
00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:17.410 A:middle L:90%
, it's done for free at first. But then

476
00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:18.779 A:middle L:90%
it sold multiple multiple, multiple times, and it

477
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:22.910 A:middle L:90%
costs us billions of billions of dollars more than it

478
00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:23.960 A:middle L:90%
should. And that's money that's taken out of research

479
00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:26.920 A:middle L:90%
and out of the university budget. So in the

480
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.779 A:middle L:90%
long term, what we should hopefully see as a

481
00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:32.880 A:middle L:90%
switch from funding paying for subscription journals to paying the

482
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.180 A:middle L:90%
A. P. C s up front at a

483
00:28:33.190 --> 00:28:37.960 A:middle L:90%
capped rate, a low rate. It's just getting

484
00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:40.930 A:middle L:90%
getting that switch done so the libraries can stop paying

485
00:28:40.930 --> 00:28:42.210 A:middle L:90%
for the subscription journals. That's really hard. Yeah

486
00:28:42.210 --> 00:28:47.109 A:middle L:90%
, I think that's an important point to emphasize that

487
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:52.440 A:middle L:90%
$28 billion figure that money is still getting paid to

488
00:28:52.450 --> 00:28:53.869 A:middle L:90%
primarily. A lot of it is going to commercial

489
00:28:53.869 --> 00:29:00.130 A:middle L:90%
publishers who are making a big profit on this,

490
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.670 A:middle L:90%
and we as libraries are still paying the subscription costs

491
00:29:04.829 --> 00:29:11.259 A:middle L:90%
. So we're offering this support for off the process

492
00:29:11.269 --> 00:29:15.579 A:middle L:90%
article processing charges. But the hope is eventually our

493
00:29:15.579 --> 00:29:18.000 A:middle L:90%
subscription costs go down as more journals become open access

494
00:29:18.210 --> 00:29:21.670 A:middle L:90%
and that some of that money theoretically could shift.

495
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.460 A:middle L:90%
So that money that that's going to subscriptions Now we

496
00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:27.450 A:middle L:90%
go to paying for for scholarship to be published.

497
00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:33.250 A:middle L:90%
Um, right now we're in this kind of netherworld

498
00:29:33.259 --> 00:29:37.529 A:middle L:90%
where we're stuck still paying exorbitant, um, journal

499
00:29:37.529 --> 00:29:41.880 A:middle L:90%
subscription costs. I mean, our budget here in

500
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.809 A:middle L:90%
the university for for the library is in the millions

501
00:29:44.809 --> 00:29:47.170 A:middle L:90%
of dollars. What we pay in subscription fees,

502
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:51.730 A:middle L:90%
that money could be being used in other ways.

503
00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:52.849 A:middle L:90%
That's a big, big part of the problem.

504
00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:56.769 A:middle L:90%
So question we deal with all the time is how

505
00:29:56.769 --> 00:29:59.150 A:middle L:90%
do we flip the system is something that can be

506
00:29:59.150 --> 00:30:03.130 A:middle L:90%
flipped quickly. I mean, you just rip the

507
00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:03.829 A:middle L:90%
band aid off. If so, how do you

508
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.250 A:middle L:90%
do that? Or is it something that has to

509
00:30:07.250 --> 00:30:10.259 A:middle L:90%
happen over time? And I think in your class

510
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:12.359 A:middle L:90%
here, what you've been talking about is this this

511
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:17.859 A:middle L:90%
idea of preparing faculty for the 21st century and it

512
00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:21.460 A:middle L:90%
is this generation of faculty coming along new faculty.

513
00:30:21.470 --> 00:30:22.910 A:middle L:90%
We're going to have to be the ones who stand

514
00:30:22.910 --> 00:30:26.000 A:middle L:90%
up and say, we're not we're not going to

515
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.960 A:middle L:90%
support this system anymore. Uh huh. So what's

516
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.549 A:middle L:90%
your most expensive journal? Mhm. I have an

517
00:30:34.549 --> 00:30:38.279 A:middle L:90%
idea. Two weeks. Mhm. I'll tell you

518
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:42.019 A:middle L:90%
who the publisher is. A specific term on Taylor

519
00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:47.759 A:middle L:90%
and Francis is probably our most extensive. L severe

520
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:51.130 A:middle L:90%
. There are the last I used to work for

521
00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:57.890 A:middle L:90%
elsewhere. That's extremely expensive, but the most expensive

522
00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:00.589 A:middle L:90%
. A PC. I mean, we don't we

523
00:31:00.589 --> 00:31:04.089 A:middle L:90%
don't. We have a cap at$1500 with ABC

524
00:31:04.099 --> 00:31:07.950 A:middle L:90%
. But we still ask, What is the publisher

525
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.430 A:middle L:90%
charging? And the most expensive charge that we've seen

526
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.160 A:middle L:90%
has been$5200 from nature. Mhm. Uh,

527
00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:21.480 A:middle L:90%
but last I knew there was There were there were

528
00:31:21.490 --> 00:31:23.849 A:middle L:90%
a few journal about a year, but we're a

529
00:31:23.859 --> 00:31:32.230 A:middle L:90%
subscription fee were over 25,000 year. Yeah,$25,000

530
00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:37.220 A:middle L:90%
. 15 years? Yeah, so that I mean

531
00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:38.890 A:middle L:90%
, it doesn't eat, doesn't take a lot of

532
00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:44.869 A:middle L:90%
calculating. Figure out that's unsustainable business model. And

533
00:31:44.869 --> 00:31:48.769 A:middle L:90%
when you see how the percentage of budget that goes

534
00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:52.470 A:middle L:90%
to subscriptions, how that has increased over the last

535
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.130 A:middle L:90%
20 years, it's it's increased way beyond the rate

536
00:31:56.130 --> 00:32:00.680 A:middle L:90%
of inflation. So yeah, the thing I wanted

537
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:01.710 A:middle L:90%
to say is that, uh, it's A.

538
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:06.099 A:middle L:90%
It's a complex system, of course, and what

539
00:32:06.099 --> 00:32:07.920 A:middle L:90%
is going to work for? Some faculty members and

540
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.160 A:middle L:90%
their research group might not work for the others.

541
00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:14.759 A:middle L:90%
Or maybe to some extent, there are faculty members

542
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.779 A:middle L:90%
who publish maybe 10 papers a year and if they

543
00:32:17.789 --> 00:32:21.779 A:middle L:90%
want to pay for publication, is not going to

544
00:32:21.789 --> 00:32:23.490 A:middle L:90%
be sustainable for them. Uh, but maybe they

545
00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:25.390 A:middle L:90%
can start with, you know, one or two

546
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.740 A:middle L:90%
or, you know, whatever is available. But

547
00:32:29.750 --> 00:32:32.000 A:middle L:90%
the counter argument for that would be, um,

548
00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:36.029 A:middle L:90%
some of the grants that they get. They pay

549
00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:37.769 A:middle L:90%
money not to publish, but to travel to conferences

550
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.009 A:middle L:90%
. And so, in a sense, they are

551
00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:43.400 A:middle L:90%
paying for that publication. So it becomes a trade

552
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.450 A:middle L:90%
off between. You want to publish it, or

553
00:32:45.450 --> 00:32:47.369 A:middle L:90%
do you want to go to a conference and interact

554
00:32:47.369 --> 00:32:51.319 A:middle L:90%
with people and talk to them? And I don't

555
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:53.440 A:middle L:90%
think there is a one size fits all and is

556
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.359 A:middle L:90%
that I think it's going to be combination of things

557
00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:01.640 A:middle L:90%
was open access also, I think whenever there is

558
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:05.289 A:middle L:90%
a change in a system that has to be some

559
00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:07.579 A:middle L:90%
, it's like a history. Seize control like there

560
00:33:07.579 --> 00:33:12.559 A:middle L:90%
has to be a a jump in benefits where people

561
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.640 A:middle L:90%
start shifting. Otherwise they will just go whatever that

562
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:20.170 A:middle L:90%
they have been doing. So it takes, takes

563
00:33:20.180 --> 00:33:22.730 A:middle L:90%
effort. I guess this kind of a forum is

564
00:33:22.730 --> 00:33:29.549 A:middle L:90%
something that would help in that direction. Question Michael

565
00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:34.940 A:middle L:90%
. So I have a question about the convention fund

566
00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:38.470 A:middle L:90%
and kind of following a speaker just talking about continuing

567
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:42.750 A:middle L:90%
previous practices as there's new opportunities. So, for

568
00:33:42.750 --> 00:33:44.849 A:middle L:90%
example, in my field, the place that I

569
00:33:44.849 --> 00:33:46.599 A:middle L:90%
might anyways published, too, you know, I

570
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:50.910 A:middle L:90%
can pay something and have this cyber of an access

571
00:33:50.910 --> 00:33:55.130 A:middle L:90%
model where they'll make this publication available. But if

572
00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:59.880 A:middle L:90%
perhaps I my research group, beliefs that may be

573
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:00.960 A:middle L:90%
open access is the way to go for this work

574
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:06.380 A:middle L:90%
by paying this, you know, publisher who doesn't

575
00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:07.969 A:middle L:90%
cut this is part of their policies. Are we

576
00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:12.269 A:middle L:90%
, you know, perpetuating a system that's contrary to

577
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.030 A:middle L:90%
the things that were kind of, you know,

578
00:34:15.300 --> 00:34:17.510 A:middle L:90%
in favor of and supporting them by having the speed

579
00:34:17.539 --> 00:34:22.769 A:middle L:90%
or we perhaps helping them make the transformation open access

580
00:34:22.769 --> 00:34:28.519 A:middle L:90%
journal by showing the viability is approached. Very curious

581
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.199 A:middle L:90%
, especially. Yeah, sure, Yeah, but

582
00:34:31.210 --> 00:34:35.130 A:middle L:90%
what do people think about that? Well, just

583
00:34:35.130 --> 00:34:36.320 A:middle L:90%
very quickly. I mean, there are the whole

584
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:38.179 A:middle L:90%
country is now. They won't. They won't give

585
00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:42.320 A:middle L:90%
funding for hybrid journals. So most of the Scandinavian

586
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.400 A:middle L:90%
countries now refused to pay those fees because their publishers

587
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.099 A:middle L:90%
, first of all, charging a lot They're charging

588
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:50.300 A:middle L:90%
twice. They're charging, people subscribe to the journals

589
00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:52.840 A:middle L:90%
and then they're also charging the authors, so that

590
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:58.909 A:middle L:90%
is called double dipping. So yeah, hybrid journals

591
00:34:58.909 --> 00:35:01.289 A:middle L:90%
are very, very unpopular funders and and so forth

592
00:35:01.289 --> 00:35:05.460 A:middle L:90%
. So if possible, I would go for 100%

593
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:09.769 A:middle L:90%
of access. But we're one of the few institutions

594
00:35:09.769 --> 00:35:14.349 A:middle L:90%
with the suspension from it does on hybrid journalist because

595
00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:20.760 A:middle L:90%
we require that they reduce the subscription unilaterally. Yes

596
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:22.829 A:middle L:90%
, in terms of the number of articles, open

597
00:35:22.829 --> 00:35:27.369 A:middle L:90%
access articles. So we're trying to hold them to

598
00:35:27.369 --> 00:35:29.969 A:middle L:90%
the not, but they have to. They have

599
00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:31.550 A:middle L:90%
to have a very clear policy. You can see

600
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:36.679 A:middle L:90%
that there is this reduced subscription based on open access

601
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:44.289 A:middle L:90%
publishing, and then we'll fund Yes, I believe

602
00:35:44.289 --> 00:35:46.610 A:middle L:90%
, actually, the European Commission, which they found

603
00:35:46.610 --> 00:35:49.659 A:middle L:90%
a large amount of research in Europe, of course

604
00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:51.690 A:middle L:90%
. And they were about to refuse hyper journals as

605
00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:54.500 A:middle L:90%
well. I think the idea are one of the

606
00:35:54.510 --> 00:35:59.059 A:middle L:90%
early ideas about hybrid journalist was that that was kind

607
00:35:59.059 --> 00:36:00.889 A:middle L:90%
of the beginning of a trend. You would go

608
00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:01.599 A:middle L:90%
first to hybrid, and then you would go to

609
00:36:01.610 --> 00:36:07.159 A:middle L:90%
full open access. But we just haven't seen that

610
00:36:07.030 --> 00:36:15.260 A:middle L:90%
mhm. So I'd like to just step back a

611
00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:16.559 A:middle L:90%
little bit. So I bought into this whole transparency

612
00:36:16.570 --> 00:36:22.300 A:middle L:90%
reproducibility idea, and it's great as a graduate student

613
00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:27.400 A:middle L:90%
to see tooling like Evolved. And I think,

614
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:29.110 A:middle L:90%
like a few years ago or a year ago,

615
00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:31.980 A:middle L:90%
like nature, had written a post about everything that

616
00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:34.940 A:middle L:90%
you published needs to come with, like at least

617
00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:37.829 A:middle L:90%
like my python or a book or something where your

618
00:36:37.829 --> 00:36:40.170 A:middle L:90%
code is accessible. So, like one of the

619
00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:43.800 A:middle L:90%
slides said, you know, and including this one

620
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:47.050 A:middle L:90%
like transparency, reproducibility and disseminating of ideas is extremely

621
00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:50.849 A:middle L:90%
important. But what if we go one step before

622
00:36:50.860 --> 00:36:53.289 A:middle L:90%
open access and just have everything open source? Because

623
00:36:53.289 --> 00:36:55.139 A:middle L:90%
if you think about open access, that's really just

624
00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:58.980 A:middle L:90%
like a business model, that's something someone is making

625
00:36:58.980 --> 00:37:01.079 A:middle L:90%
a decision. But if you're doing research and publish

626
00:37:01.090 --> 00:37:05.449 A:middle L:90%
all your code or your lab notebook to, like

627
00:37:05.449 --> 00:37:07.369 A:middle L:90%
get hub, for example, then you know it's

628
00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:10.139 A:middle L:90%
still freely available to everyone else. It's really just

629
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:14.780 A:middle L:90%
the prose text. That's what you're paying for for

630
00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:16.599 A:middle L:90%
people who you know, this abstract is really cool

631
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:20.070 A:middle L:90%
. That's just produces like that's actually as a graduate

632
00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:21.619 A:middle L:90%
student. That's what I care about more. It's

633
00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:22.099 A:middle L:90%
like, Okay, I write this paper, It's

634
00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:24.300 A:middle L:90%
great. How do I extend that? Well,

635
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:27.900 A:middle L:90%
there's no numbers in here. There's some code anywhere

636
00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:30.840 A:middle L:90%
, and that's actually almost feel more problematic. So

637
00:37:30.849 --> 00:37:35.150 A:middle L:90%
I don't know if anyone agrees Headlight. Maybe.

638
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:37.039 A:middle L:90%
Maybe the way that, like nudge the field,

639
00:37:37.050 --> 00:37:37.989 A:middle L:90%
is to, like, just publish everything, make

640
00:37:37.989 --> 00:37:43.159 A:middle L:90%
that available and just have the business people the fallout

641
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:47.750 A:middle L:90%
from here. Alright, I could say the day

642
00:37:47.750 --> 00:37:52.920 A:middle L:90%
open science is, uh, Bryant and and that's

643
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.199 A:middle L:90%
up on the screen on all the scripts now,

644
00:37:57.210 --> 00:38:00.570 A:middle L:90%
Um, or that's that's green. I mean,

645
00:38:00.579 --> 00:38:02.630 A:middle L:90%
I'm not the expert to talk about that, but

646
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:07.480 A:middle L:90%
you want to talk. Share that because it gets

647
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:09.579 A:middle L:90%
at this question. Sure, those of you who

648
00:38:09.579 --> 00:38:13.610 A:middle L:90%
are familiar with the Senate for Open Science based in

649
00:38:13.610 --> 00:38:16.610 A:middle L:90%
Charlottesville, this open science framework, which is really

650
00:38:16.610 --> 00:38:22.329 A:middle L:90%
a it says there are scholarly comments that enables you

651
00:38:22.340 --> 00:38:28.199 A:middle L:90%
to do your research as transparently and it's open as

652
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.099 A:middle L:90%
possible, and I do think it is. This

653
00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:32.949 A:middle L:90%
is the direction things are going. And, um

654
00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:40.489 A:middle L:90%
, I don't know yet how broadly used this is

655
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:43.440 A:middle L:90%
. You might you might have a better sensitive.

656
00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:45.210 A:middle L:90%
It's becoming more and more popular all the time,

657
00:38:45.210 --> 00:38:47.940 A:middle L:90%
and it gives researchers a choice. What to make

658
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:52.190 A:middle L:90%
open when so when they just started pre print service

659
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:53.619 A:middle L:90%
, to which kind of gets to the kind of

660
00:38:53.619 --> 00:38:57.929 A:middle L:90%
opened from start to finish idea as well. So

661
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.590 A:middle L:90%
as soon as you have a first draft, you

662
00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:05.210 A:middle L:90%
put your your first submitted version up there, and

663
00:39:05.210 --> 00:39:07.500 A:middle L:90%
which more and more journals are allowing now for you

664
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:10.010 A:middle L:90%
to just post your first surgeon of the article,

665
00:39:10.010 --> 00:39:14.400 A:middle L:90%
as as it's under review. So I think it

666
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.039 A:middle L:90%
is becoming more and more popular. Well, we

667
00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:21.920 A:middle L:90%
as an institution Virginia Tech are participating in A is

668
00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:24.030 A:middle L:90%
the trial with the Center for Open Science, where

669
00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:30.219 A:middle L:90%
we are an institutional, um, test case for

670
00:39:30.219 --> 00:39:32.079 A:middle L:90%
them. So we'll be because they are opening the

671
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:36.980 A:middle L:90%
center for, uh, open science framework. They're

672
00:39:36.989 --> 00:39:40.599 A:middle L:90%
opening it up now to institutional participation, and we

673
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:45.239 A:middle L:90%
are one of the institutions that will be participating in

674
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.500 A:middle L:90%
that. So we're helping them to get this out

675
00:39:47.510 --> 00:39:53.219 A:middle L:90%
for widely used Oh, at the time so I

676
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:54.969 A:middle L:90%
can I can make a comment on this, and

677
00:39:54.980 --> 00:40:00.739 A:middle L:90%
this is where I'll give you the faculty perspective and

678
00:40:00.750 --> 00:40:02.789 A:middle L:90%
it's not a good thing. I'll tell you from

679
00:40:02.789 --> 00:40:05.929 A:middle L:90%
now, Uh, it's something that we have to

680
00:40:05.929 --> 00:40:08.739 A:middle L:90%
suffer this what we really want to do and what

681
00:40:08.739 --> 00:40:12.610 A:middle L:90%
the system forces us to do. So what we

682
00:40:12.610 --> 00:40:15.639 A:middle L:90%
really want to do is that we want to learn

683
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:16.969 A:middle L:90%
what an advanced science we want to share. That

684
00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:21.019 A:middle L:90%
molecules, everyone, right? And then the reality

685
00:40:21.019 --> 00:40:22.820 A:middle L:90%
is, every faculty member is worried about their students

686
00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:25.789 A:middle L:90%
, they graduate students and their funding, and we're

687
00:40:25.789 --> 00:40:28.889 A:middle L:90%
going to have to go out there and fight for

688
00:40:28.889 --> 00:40:32.800 A:middle L:90%
getting funding. And the more you make your research

689
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.329 A:middle L:90%
available for anyone to just use it right away,

690
00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:40.489 A:middle L:90%
Um, you lose some edge, that you lose

691
00:40:40.489 --> 00:40:44.139 A:middle L:90%
some competition age. It's unfortunate, but that is

692
00:40:44.139 --> 00:40:47.050 A:middle L:90%
what is happening. So the idea of making everything

693
00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:52.170 A:middle L:90%
available to everywhere makes it difficult to sustain the funding

694
00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:53.780 A:middle L:90%
for the graduate students you have. It's not something

695
00:40:53.780 --> 00:40:55.750 A:middle L:90%
that we like, but it is what is happening

696
00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:59.230 A:middle L:90%
. I can make it. Yeah, go ahead

697
00:41:00.210 --> 00:41:02.159 A:middle L:90%
. So we've been having a discussion in our preparing

698
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.030 A:middle L:90%
the story, a class about ethics. And we

699
00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:13.369 A:middle L:90%
had a visitor, the co founder of Retraction Watch

700
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:15.860 A:middle L:90%
. So this brings up being a the issue of

701
00:41:15.869 --> 00:41:19.530 A:middle L:90%
why is there a peer review system to begin?

702
00:41:20.210 --> 00:41:22.019 A:middle L:90%
So I always got to have it back in the

703
00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:24.530 A:middle L:90%
back of my mind. And I can I can

704
00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:28.619 A:middle L:90%
always publish whatever I want on my website. My

705
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:32.260 A:middle L:90%
mom, my dad, will see you. It

706
00:41:32.260 --> 00:41:35.940 A:middle L:90%
won't be peer reviewed, and no, no care

707
00:41:36.610 --> 00:41:37.489 A:middle L:90%
. So I guess part of the system and maybe

708
00:41:37.489 --> 00:41:40.019 A:middle L:90%
you guys can weigh on this is are the system

709
00:41:40.019 --> 00:41:43.820 A:middle L:90%
is that I give it to these publishers open access

710
00:41:43.820 --> 00:41:46.739 A:middle L:90%
or close access or limited access. Um, and

711
00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:52.110 A:middle L:90%
they then have this network of experts that can review

712
00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:54.590 A:middle L:90%
it. Give me comments, right? Make it

713
00:41:54.590 --> 00:41:59.739 A:middle L:90%
better, verify that it. And then. And

714
00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:01.420 A:middle L:90%
so whenever I see something like this, I'm always

715
00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:07.610 A:middle L:90%
leery of that, very wary of where what it

716
00:42:07.610 --> 00:42:12.630 A:middle L:90%
may lead to. So I forgot what they're called

717
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.500 A:middle L:90%
. But there's there's something else where you can kind

718
00:42:15.500 --> 00:42:19.119 A:middle L:90%
of just publish. You can print servers. Put

719
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:23.199 A:middle L:90%
up your preference of your work before it's been yeah

720
00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:28.519 A:middle L:90%
, it's important to realize that archive. The is

721
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:30.550 A:middle L:90%
a pre print server for physicists, and it is

722
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:35.030 A:middle L:90%
the official is the place to go. It's not

723
00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:38.239 A:middle L:90%
that you so you can post their whether it's been

724
00:42:38.250 --> 00:42:42.570 A:middle L:90%
pure and you're not, probably hasn't. But the

725
00:42:42.570 --> 00:42:44.480 A:middle L:90%
idea is, once it's up there, then the

726
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.429 A:middle L:90%
community police is what is available on the site.

727
00:42:47.900 --> 00:42:51.139 A:middle L:90%
Um, and it doesn't prevent you from then going

728
00:42:51.150 --> 00:42:53.079 A:middle L:90%
later on and publishing an article somewhere else. But

729
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.039 A:middle L:90%
it gets it out there, and that is a

730
00:42:55.050 --> 00:42:59.030 A:middle L:90%
that's a That's a model that seems to have worked

731
00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:00.769 A:middle L:90%
very well in certain fields, and it would seem

732
00:43:00.769 --> 00:43:05.260 A:middle L:90%
like that could be applied elsewhere. And I'm a

733
00:43:05.260 --> 00:43:07.769 A:middle L:90%
little surprised that it hasn't. It's starting to more

734
00:43:07.010 --> 00:43:09.369 A:middle L:90%
. They're starting to be humanity's frequent service and social

735
00:43:09.369 --> 00:43:14.449 A:middle L:90%
sciences ones. They're starting to come, but I

736
00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:15.389 A:middle L:90%
think you need all those things. I think they're

737
00:43:15.389 --> 00:43:19.469 A:middle L:90%
all really important. I think peer review and publishing

738
00:43:19.469 --> 00:43:21.090 A:middle L:90%
. It's kind of like it gives you a passport

739
00:43:21.099 --> 00:43:22.929 A:middle L:90%
for your work to be discussed in the scholarly discourse

740
00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:25.739 A:middle L:90%
. People just have that confidence that that work is

741
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:29.429 A:middle L:90%
being filtered and it's ready to be discussed. I

742
00:43:29.429 --> 00:43:30.860 A:middle L:90%
think you should, you know, if I if

743
00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:32.090 A:middle L:90%
I was a young researcher today, I'm I'm still

744
00:43:32.090 --> 00:43:36.230 A:middle L:90%
finishing a PhD, but I'm no longer young.

745
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:38.030 A:middle L:90%
I say. I think you should do all of

746
00:43:38.030 --> 00:43:39.699 A:middle L:90%
those things because it's much to your advantage. You

747
00:43:39.699 --> 00:43:43.400 A:middle L:90%
should release your data and allow other people to validate

748
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:45.260 A:middle L:90%
your work because that's part of the social contract of

749
00:43:45.260 --> 00:43:46.510 A:middle L:90%
science that you let other people validate what you've done

750
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:49.449 A:middle L:90%
, um, and software and so forth helps them

751
00:43:49.449 --> 00:43:52.800 A:middle L:90%
to reproduce it more efficiently. But it's also part

752
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:53.420 A:middle L:90%
of the more you share your work, the bigger

753
00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:55.670 A:middle L:90%
the networks you're going to form in the world,

754
00:43:55.670 --> 00:43:59.519 A:middle L:90%
the more international collaborations you're going to come to and

755
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:00.760 A:middle L:90%
therefore probably the better chances you're going to have a

756
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:02.829 A:middle L:90%
finding grant funding and so forth and future. I

757
00:44:02.829 --> 00:44:06.260 A:middle L:90%
mean, it's a it's a tricky balance, right

758
00:44:06.269 --> 00:44:07.900 A:middle L:90%
? But if I was a younger researcher, I

759
00:44:07.900 --> 00:44:12.019 A:middle L:90%
would be betting on having a strong international network behind

760
00:44:12.019 --> 00:44:14.349 A:middle L:90%
me to build my career with. And then if

761
00:44:14.349 --> 00:44:15.460 A:middle L:90%
I'm going to a university, I'll say, Well

762
00:44:15.460 --> 00:44:17.769 A:middle L:90%
, I can bring these connections which will get me

763
00:44:17.769 --> 00:44:22.110 A:middle L:90%
grant funding. Mm. I'm not saying we should

764
00:44:22.110 --> 00:44:23.090 A:middle L:90%
be judged on grant funding as well as publications,

765
00:44:23.090 --> 00:44:24.920 A:middle L:90%
but You know, I think it's a very sound

766
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:29.199 A:middle L:90%
strategy to have these days. Two things to add

767
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.409 A:middle L:90%
to that. Um, first off, there is

768
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:32.750 A:middle L:90%
the rise of post peer review. I mean,

769
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:37.280 A:middle L:90%
getting everything published. So the retraction watch guy he

770
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:38.639 A:middle L:90%
talked about pop here. And the idea is,

771
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.210 A:middle L:90%
you know, everything is published, everything is out

772
00:44:40.210 --> 00:44:43.610 A:middle L:90%
there. And, uh, people in your field

773
00:44:43.610 --> 00:44:46.539 A:middle L:90%
can still comment and show if there are issues with

774
00:44:46.539 --> 00:44:50.309 A:middle L:90%
your papers. So, uh, that kind of

775
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:52.469 A:middle L:90%
gets into making sure that even if something is out

776
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:55.179 A:middle L:90%
there, uh, if it's substandard, uh,

777
00:44:55.190 --> 00:44:58.530 A:middle L:90%
people will point that out. It would not stay

778
00:44:58.530 --> 00:45:00.570 A:middle L:90%
in the literature forever. Uh, number two is

779
00:45:00.579 --> 00:45:04.019 A:middle L:90%
, uh, you know, we saw on the

780
00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:07.630 A:middle L:90%
slide before that there are 2.5 million articles published each

781
00:45:07.630 --> 00:45:08.719 A:middle L:90%
year. I'm pretty sure a lot of that is

782
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:13.519 A:middle L:90%
crap. Without a doubt. I mean, you

783
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.110 A:middle L:90%
when you you mean looking at papers, writing your

784
00:45:15.110 --> 00:45:17.550 A:middle L:90%
reviews, You see a lot of papers that are

785
00:45:17.550 --> 00:45:20.900 A:middle L:90%
just nonsense, but they're out there. They're published

786
00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:24.059 A:middle L:90%
in respected journals. So as you guys going to

787
00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:27.269 A:middle L:90%
, you know, academia in the future and start

788
00:45:27.269 --> 00:45:30.739 A:middle L:90%
publishing looking at research, uh, the quality of

789
00:45:30.739 --> 00:45:32.360 A:middle L:90%
your work with, uh, if the idea is

790
00:45:32.369 --> 00:45:36.639 A:middle L:90%
, we want to get as many papers, uh

791
00:45:36.650 --> 00:45:37.449 A:middle L:90%
, as possible out there. There'll be a lot

792
00:45:37.449 --> 00:45:39.969 A:middle L:90%
of, uh, you know, the networks would

793
00:45:39.969 --> 00:45:42.610 A:middle L:90%
have a lot of pressure, like, look,

794
00:45:42.619 --> 00:45:45.219 A:middle L:90%
looking at 2.5 million articles every year. That's a

795
00:45:45.219 --> 00:45:46.050 A:middle L:90%
lot of work. So if you guys do a

796
00:45:46.050 --> 00:45:47.820 A:middle L:90%
better job of writing less paper, it's a better

797
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.949 A:middle L:90%
papers. Uh, you know, every everyone would

798
00:45:50.949 --> 00:45:52.230 A:middle L:90%
benefit. But then that comes down to a tenure

799
00:45:52.230 --> 00:45:55.349 A:middle L:90%
and promotion. And if I have only five papers

800
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.590 A:middle L:90%
, uh, would I get tell you? So

801
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:00.929 A:middle L:90%
there's a lot to consider, but I think there

802
00:46:00.929 --> 00:46:02.880 A:middle L:90%
are good practices coming in, like post peer review

803
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.880 A:middle L:90%
that can help a lot of good science stay in

804
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:08.289 A:middle L:90%
place. And just add to this question about,

805
00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:12.260 A:middle L:90%
um, what kind of resources you need to make

806
00:46:12.269 --> 00:46:15.909 A:middle L:90%
open. It's important to notice that Open doesn't me

807
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:20.269 A:middle L:90%
only free, and they'll send these discussions about okay

808
00:46:20.269 --> 00:46:22.460 A:middle L:90%
. We have free access to this article river,

809
00:46:22.460 --> 00:46:23.400 A:middle L:90%
but it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that it's

810
00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:25.929 A:middle L:90%
an open access has to be reducible. It has

811
00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:30.150 A:middle L:90%
been producing. It has to be reusable. Everything

812
00:46:30.150 --> 00:46:32.329 A:middle L:90%
that is related to this paper should be, to

813
00:46:32.329 --> 00:46:37.320 A:middle L:90%
some extent available online, and that's required this whole

814
00:46:37.329 --> 00:46:40.510 A:middle L:90%
ecosystem of peer review and these places that you can

815
00:46:40.510 --> 00:46:45.110 A:middle L:90%
publish your work knowing that people will read it without

816
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.230 A:middle L:90%
, uh, without suspecting as credibility. Uh,

817
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:51.550 A:middle L:90%
so that's why the whole existence should work with us

818
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:52.599 A:middle L:90%
. But again, it's not only about being free

819
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.639 A:middle L:90%
, and it's important to mention to the federal remembering

820
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:06.210 A:middle L:90%
correctly the the federal mandate from the White House was

821
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:10.119 A:middle L:90%
public access and access of data to the data has

822
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:15.989 A:middle L:90%
to be made accessible. But in terms of public

823
00:47:15.989 --> 00:47:19.179 A:middle L:90%
access, it doesn't mean that you can have a

824
00:47:19.190 --> 00:47:21.849 A:middle L:90%
more restrictive license. I think on the work that

825
00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:24.400 A:middle L:90%
you publish in the sense of being able to remix

826
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:29.369 A:middle L:90%
or doesn't doesn't necessarily require the most liberal treatment of

827
00:47:29.380 --> 00:47:34.519 A:middle L:90%
that material. But, um, the question,

828
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.199 A:middle L:90%
I think is as we become more and more and

829
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.929 A:middle L:90%
more people, yeah, and exceed to this idea

830
00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:45.289 A:middle L:90%
that science and research should be open. Is are

831
00:47:45.289 --> 00:47:50.500 A:middle L:90%
we dealing with an inevitable push? Is it going

832
00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:52.519 A:middle L:90%
to be say, in the next generation? Are

833
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:55.349 A:middle L:90%
we going to see the tipping point where we go

834
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:00.860 A:middle L:90%
to, uh, either as a at least a

835
00:48:00.869 --> 00:48:05.329 A:middle L:90%
dominantly open access system. What do people think about

836
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:07.400 A:middle L:90%
that? Is it Is it inevitable? Okay,

837
00:48:10.269 --> 00:48:15.590 A:middle L:90%
yes, I think tipping points very close, very

838
00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:19.500 A:middle L:90%
close, even with 70% still not getting access.

839
00:48:19.969 --> 00:48:22.659 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, but I think there's a lot of policy

840
00:48:22.670 --> 00:48:23.150 A:middle L:90%
starting to come behind it. And now it's a

841
00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:27.289 A:middle L:90%
matter of finding other ways to shift the financial model

842
00:48:27.769 --> 00:48:30.670 A:middle L:90%
. It's really universities need to have the resources to

843
00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:37.429 A:middle L:90%
spend to support open access because it's it. And

844
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.650 A:middle L:90%
it's also things like changing the changing the rules for

845
00:48:39.650 --> 00:48:42.489 A:middle L:90%
tenure and things like that. I think that's the

846
00:48:42.489 --> 00:48:45.320 A:middle L:90%
hardest thing. But I've heard great optimism that it's

847
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.760 A:middle L:90%
possible because in the UK, people will talk about

848
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:50.230 A:middle L:90%
all the time. It's like that's the one thing

849
00:48:50.230 --> 00:48:52.210 A:middle L:90%
we don't know how to change it. It's too

850
00:48:52.210 --> 00:48:54.849 A:middle L:90%
ingrained, so people can start to lobby for that

851
00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:58.400 A:middle L:90%
. That would make a huge difference, I think

852
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:00.949 A:middle L:90%
because there's less pressure to publish and then the subscription

853
00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:05.590 A:middle L:90%
journals will the rules will change a little bit.

854
00:49:06.469 --> 00:49:10.579 A:middle L:90%
I think we need to get back to thinking about

855
00:49:12.570 --> 00:49:20.480 A:middle L:90%
why we do research and it sounds and what why

856
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.340 A:middle L:90%
I think we do research is to share the results

857
00:49:22.340 --> 00:49:25.940 A:middle L:90%
with others. And it's not for tenure and promotion

858
00:49:25.949 --> 00:49:30.010 A:middle L:90%
. And it's not for publication. It is both

859
00:49:30.010 --> 00:49:35.050 A:middle L:90%
of those. But it is really about sharing knowledge

860
00:49:35.050 --> 00:49:37.690 A:middle L:90%
, and that's what higher education should be about.

861
00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:42.010 A:middle L:90%
And so we have. We have to continue to

862
00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:45.210 A:middle L:90%
keep that in the forefront, I believe, Um

863
00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:47.840 A:middle L:90%
, and if that is the case, then I

864
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.130 A:middle L:90%
think we will have open access. I think we're

865
00:49:51.130 --> 00:49:57.079 A:middle L:90%
being pushed, pushed and pulled towards that. We've

866
00:49:57.090 --> 00:50:00.980 A:middle L:90%
got NIH and NSF and you know, our government

867
00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:06.320 A:middle L:90%
talking about it. We've got libraries that are encouraging

868
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:07.260 A:middle L:90%
it. Virginia Tech being one of them. We

869
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:12.139 A:middle L:90%
have classes like this one where we talk about the

870
00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:14.570 A:middle L:90%
, you know, the future and being much more

871
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:17.559 A:middle L:90%
open to sharing in different ways. It is the

872
00:50:17.570 --> 00:50:22.389 A:middle L:90%
faculty, and I'm one of them that created the

873
00:50:22.389 --> 00:50:24.480 A:middle L:90%
tenure promotion system. And we are the ones who

874
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:30.250 A:middle L:90%
can change it if we are willing to give up

875
00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:34.920 A:middle L:90%
a little bit of our power. Um, in

876
00:50:34.929 --> 00:50:38.969 A:middle L:90%
that because we created it. And what happened in

877
00:50:38.969 --> 00:50:42.519 A:middle L:90%
the sixties, I was not 10 years done.

878
00:50:42.530 --> 00:50:45.460 A:middle L:90%
I'm not at all. Uh, but what happened

879
00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:47.710 A:middle L:90%
in the sixties for 10 years? Somebody walked down

880
00:50:47.710 --> 00:50:52.329 A:middle L:90%
the hall and said, You're tendered. That's not

881
00:50:52.329 --> 00:50:55.539 A:middle L:90%
the system now It has evolved over time, and

882
00:50:55.550 --> 00:51:00.369 A:middle L:90%
it can. I'm avoiding devolved. But it can't

883
00:51:00.369 --> 00:51:05.989 A:middle L:90%
evolve in another direction to be much more inclusive,

884
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.829 A:middle L:90%
Um, and making the changes that I think we

885
00:51:07.829 --> 00:51:12.889 A:middle L:90%
need to have in higher education. Brian, it

886
00:51:12.889 --> 00:51:15.440 A:middle L:90%
sounds like you think the tipping point is soon.

887
00:51:15.449 --> 00:51:19.500 A:middle L:90%
I want to share that optimism. I think we

888
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:22.610 A:middle L:90%
have. As I said before when we were talking

889
00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:25.829 A:middle L:90%
up here, Um, we have incoming generations of

890
00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:30.409 A:middle L:90%
faculty who will think differently. And once we retire

891
00:51:30.409 --> 00:51:34.440 A:middle L:90%
, some of us who are in that older generation

892
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.440 A:middle L:90%
and not as willing to change, then I think

893
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:38.440 A:middle L:90%
that's when the tipping point is going to happen.

894
00:51:38.449 --> 00:51:42.679 A:middle L:90%
Generals are going to push a society. Society should

895
00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:45.440 A:middle L:90%
push us and say, and legislators are you know

896
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.119 A:middle L:90%
, they're saying, Where's accountable? I'm spending all

897
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.329 A:middle L:90%
this money and what do I get? Nothing.

898
00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:52.510 A:middle L:90%
I can't subscribed to the Journal. I'm not paying

899
00:51:52.510 --> 00:51:55.840 A:middle L:90%
25,000 with that term. Well, I'm curious,

900
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:59.639 A:middle L:90%
so I'm new. I've been here at Virginia Jack

901
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.639 A:middle L:90%
since January, and I know a number of institutions

902
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:07.570 A:middle L:90%
have instituted open access policies where the back of the

903
00:52:07.570 --> 00:52:12.400 A:middle L:90%
are mandated to publish or to at least do a

904
00:52:12.409 --> 00:52:15.559 A:middle L:90%
green, open access version of their papers. We've

905
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:16.760 A:middle L:90%
not done that at Virginia Tech. Has there been

906
00:52:17.650 --> 00:52:21.969 A:middle L:90%
what has been the conversation around? That is that

907
00:52:21.980 --> 00:52:24.659 A:middle L:90%
Is that a way that we should be going towards

908
00:52:24.869 --> 00:52:30.199 A:middle L:90%
more institutions doing that? No. We haven't done

909
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:35.079 A:middle L:90%
that as tech that I'm aware of any conversation or

910
00:52:35.090 --> 00:52:38.710 A:middle L:90%
open conversation about it. Not that I'm aware of

911
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:42.329 A:middle L:90%
. We should. We should be having the conversation

912
00:52:42.340 --> 00:52:45.170 A:middle L:90%
. I'm sure there's been pockets. Yeah, Mohammed

913
00:52:45.170 --> 00:52:46.400 A:middle L:90%
, you know that there used to be some conversations

914
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:50.230 A:middle L:90%
around the campus and that the library has kind of

915
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:53.929 A:middle L:90%
recommendations for faculty to population to have a copy of

916
00:52:53.940 --> 00:52:57.039 A:middle L:90%
the papers. I think the real story for the

917
00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.630 A:middle L:90%
library. But the thing is, and going back

918
00:52:59.630 --> 00:53:01.480 A:middle L:90%
to what the dean was talking about, that even

919
00:53:01.489 --> 00:53:04.909 A:middle L:90%
if the government is not pushing us through this even

920
00:53:04.909 --> 00:53:06.969 A:middle L:90%
if not, if you're not so close, even

921
00:53:06.969 --> 00:53:08.369 A:middle L:90%
if the faculty are thinking this way about the quality

922
00:53:08.380 --> 00:53:12.329 A:middle L:90%
for But I always go back to Virginia Tech at

923
00:53:12.329 --> 00:53:15.730 A:middle L:90%
this kind of it's one of those institutions who are

924
00:53:15.739 --> 00:53:19.530 A:middle L:90%
Public Land Grant University. Uh, so for the

925
00:53:19.530 --> 00:53:22.269 A:middle L:90%
mission of this institute. It's quite different than some

926
00:53:22.269 --> 00:53:24.559 A:middle L:90%
of the other institutes. Even if we are not

927
00:53:25.150 --> 00:53:28.099 A:middle L:90%
, even if the government is not pushing us to

928
00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:30.030 A:middle L:90%
, it should be us who actually lead the efforts

929
00:53:30.030 --> 00:53:32.329 A:middle L:90%
, because this is our mission, which is to

930
00:53:32.329 --> 00:53:35.780 A:middle L:90%
disseminate knowledge. If you are not doing this,

931
00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:37.139 A:middle L:90%
we are not actually doing the mission of a Land

932
00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:39.489 A:middle L:90%
Grant university. So what I'm thinking about it this

933
00:53:39.489 --> 00:53:43.119 A:middle L:90%
way. It's kind of we are not following what

934
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:45.179 A:middle L:90%
we're supposed to be doing. Regardless, the other

935
00:53:45.179 --> 00:53:47.829 A:middle L:90%
institutes, regardless, the government and the legislation's it

936
00:53:47.829 --> 00:53:51.400 A:middle L:90%
should be asked to move forward would take the first

937
00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:52.480 A:middle L:90%
steps. And that's why I keep thinking about our

938
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:55.400 A:middle L:90%
faculty, maybe to think in a different way than

939
00:53:55.400 --> 00:54:00.849 A:middle L:90%
what faculty members and other private institutes me think about

940
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.030 A:middle L:90%
. So to follow up on that, I think

941
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:06.420 A:middle L:90%
when we talk about faculty, it all boils down

942
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:09.469 A:middle L:90%
to time. And you know, if you want

943
00:54:09.469 --> 00:54:12.789 A:middle L:90%
to do everything that you are supposed to do as

944
00:54:12.789 --> 00:54:15.190 A:middle L:90%
a faculty member, you need 60 to 80 hours

945
00:54:15.190 --> 00:54:19.050 A:middle L:90%
a week and some things that I give you gotta

946
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:23.559 A:middle L:90%
get something go. And as as as long as

947
00:54:24.340 --> 00:54:28.650 A:middle L:90%
the system is not pushing on you, then you

948
00:54:28.650 --> 00:54:30.449 A:middle L:90%
can push in those kinds of directions. So but

949
00:54:30.449 --> 00:54:32.760 A:middle L:90%
I agree with Dean Deep. I think it's a

950
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:37.840 A:middle L:90%
the tenure and promotion pressures that we have right now

951
00:54:37.849 --> 00:54:42.260 A:middle L:90%
probably is not leaving a lot of leeway for faculty

952
00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:45.170 A:middle L:90%
to go into these directions. I don't think faculty

953
00:54:45.170 --> 00:54:46.969 A:middle L:90%
opposed to that. I just think that they have

954
00:54:47.730 --> 00:54:50.900 A:middle L:90%
. They have to, you know, way different

955
00:54:50.900 --> 00:54:53.000 A:middle L:90%
options when they they follow up on things. And

956
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:54.920 A:middle L:90%
again, that does not mean not to do the

957
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:59.239 A:middle L:90%
open access. I just think that it's a you

958
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:00.159 A:middle L:90%
know, some open access. I'm not hoping to

959
00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:07.360 A:middle L:90%
access depending on the time. I'm not academic,

960
00:55:07.369 --> 00:55:12.039 A:middle L:90%
but I'm a little confused. If the money if

961
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:14.909 A:middle L:90%
there were a fun if the Bill and Melinda Gates

962
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:19.059 A:middle L:90%
Foundation said we will provide but$5 billion a year

963
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:22.670 A:middle L:90%
, Um, and I don't think that's funny money

964
00:55:22.670 --> 00:55:23.929 A:middle L:90%
. I'm not saying to do that, but you

965
00:55:23.929 --> 00:55:27.599 A:middle L:90%
know, some kind of public good we would the

966
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.269 A:middle L:90%
faculty then it is that the stumbling block is that

967
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:36.550 A:middle L:90%
the stumbling block that is that it's expensive if you're

968
00:55:36.550 --> 00:55:38.860 A:middle L:90%
producing tent. If you're a professor producing 10 papers

969
00:55:38.860 --> 00:55:43.559 A:middle L:90%
a year that could be$50,000. That's no small

970
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:45.570 A:middle L:90%
thing. And you have hundreds of faculty who are

971
00:55:45.579 --> 00:55:49.199 A:middle L:90%
fighting to produce, right? Or is it the

972
00:55:49.210 --> 00:55:52.880 A:middle L:90%
prestige of the journals themselves? Because you want to

973
00:55:52.889 --> 00:55:55.500 A:middle L:90%
do something that's free is human nature. I think

974
00:55:55.510 --> 00:55:59.989 A:middle L:90%
you're being less valuable unless you can put your finger

975
00:55:59.989 --> 00:56:04.960 A:middle L:90%
on the network effects. What is it that that

976
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:07.530 A:middle L:90%
stands in the way? I realize it's a complex

977
00:56:07.530 --> 00:56:09.750 A:middle L:90%
of different things. It could just be the money

978
00:56:10.329 --> 00:56:12.820 A:middle L:90%
. I don't think it's just the money. I

979
00:56:12.820 --> 00:56:16.210 A:middle L:90%
think well, it's exactly what you said. It's

980
00:56:16.210 --> 00:56:19.130 A:middle L:90%
a complex, you know? It's a complex thing

981
00:56:19.139 --> 00:56:21.619 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, I think a faculty Let's say you

982
00:56:21.619 --> 00:56:23.460 A:middle L:90%
know the tenure track faculty who are going up 14

983
00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:28.579 A:middle L:90%
year in five years when they start for everything they

984
00:56:28.590 --> 00:56:30.630 A:middle L:90%
do, they would be thinking about when my case

985
00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:34.989 A:middle L:90%
comes up for evaluation. How would my committee look

986
00:56:34.989 --> 00:56:37.460 A:middle L:90%
at this? Um, would I get tenure?

987
00:56:37.460 --> 00:56:38.079 A:middle L:90%
And would I be rejected? Tenure? And there

988
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:40.980 A:middle L:90%
are cases where people don't get drafted 10 years,

989
00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:45.269 A:middle L:90%
so that's a that's the real thing that wagons are

990
00:56:45.269 --> 00:56:50.119 A:middle L:90%
afraid of. So the prestige of the journal comes

991
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.050 A:middle L:90%
in as a factor, and of course, If

992
00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:53.780 A:middle L:90%
if there is a way to show that these open

993
00:56:53.780 --> 00:56:59.639 A:middle L:90%
access journals are as prestigious, then I think then

994
00:56:59.650 --> 00:57:01.840 A:middle L:90%
that would be taken out of the equation, because

995
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:06.530 A:middle L:90%
then people are going to go for So if you

996
00:57:06.530 --> 00:57:08.630 A:middle L:90%
could spend money, I'm just talking conceptual. If

997
00:57:08.630 --> 00:57:10.949 A:middle L:90%
you can spend money for the A P C.

998
00:57:12.429 --> 00:57:16.079 A:middle L:90%
And you can spend money for the platform, um

999
00:57:16.090 --> 00:57:22.219 A:middle L:90%
, quality stamp of approval and whether it's an algorithm

1000
00:57:22.230 --> 00:57:24.500 A:middle L:90%
or it's a terrific editorial board or it's this network

1001
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:29.099 A:middle L:90%
effect and maybe because I'm obviously focusing on money because

1002
00:57:29.110 --> 00:57:30.820 A:middle L:90%
money can buy things bad things or buy good things

1003
00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:32.690 A:middle L:90%
. But if you had, but you probably need

1004
00:57:32.690 --> 00:57:35.630 A:middle L:90%
to be able to buy both, you have to

1005
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:38.010 A:middle L:90%
buy the production piece so you get a high quality

1006
00:57:38.019 --> 00:57:40.900 A:middle L:90%
, easy production and you were talking about smoothing Brian

1007
00:57:40.909 --> 00:57:44.750 A:middle L:90%
. But you would also need to have that editorial

1008
00:57:45.329 --> 00:57:46.619 A:middle L:90%
seal of approval, and I don't mean to denigrate

1009
00:57:46.630 --> 00:57:50.730 A:middle L:90%
by acting in Good Housekeeping seal. It's very important

1010
00:57:50.730 --> 00:57:52.639 A:middle L:90%
and difficult because people who do that of other things

1011
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:55.980 A:middle L:90%
to do, like, published their own pictures.

1012
00:57:58.030 --> 00:58:00.090 A:middle L:90%
What one thing people talk about a lot these days

1013
00:58:00.090 --> 00:58:02.190 A:middle L:90%
is the journal is the problem that we, we

1014
00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:05.469 A:middle L:90%
everything is. We judge a piece of work based

1015
00:58:05.469 --> 00:58:07.920 A:middle L:90%
on which journalism so people. A lot of the

1016
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:09.050 A:middle L:90%
papers published in high impact factor journals are not good

1017
00:58:09.050 --> 00:58:12.579 A:middle L:90%
quality either, but they're they're judged to be high

1018
00:58:12.579 --> 00:58:14.449 A:middle L:90%
quality because they got in there. So one of

1019
00:58:14.449 --> 00:58:15.730 A:middle L:90%
the things we could look at is is being judged

1020
00:58:15.739 --> 00:58:19.380 A:middle L:90%
purely on the metrics for your paper. How many

1021
00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:21.599 A:middle L:90%
downloads, How many views, how many citations does

1022
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:23.400 A:middle L:90%
the paper have, rather than which journalists did so

1023
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:25.349 A:middle L:90%
if the Tenure Committee's weren't even able to tell the

1024
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:30.980 A:middle L:90%
generals things that would make it an easy problem?

1025
00:58:30.980 --> 00:58:35.510 A:middle L:90%
In a sense, I mean signal economists information signaling

1026
00:58:35.510 --> 00:58:37.579 A:middle L:90%
effects and that kind of people have done a lot

1027
00:58:37.579 --> 00:58:39.739 A:middle L:90%
of work around the difficulties how to price it created

1028
00:58:39.739 --> 00:58:44.780 A:middle L:90%
incentive structure gets people in a particular environment like this

1029
00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:47.800 A:middle L:90%
, particularly by the whether these complex issues. If

1030
00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:50.889 A:middle L:90%
you wanted money, you wouldn't be fighting for tenure

1031
00:58:50.900 --> 00:58:52.730 A:middle L:90%
. You want to publish if you want to research

1032
00:58:52.730 --> 00:58:54.730 A:middle L:90%
and you want to delete your type. I think

1033
00:58:54.730 --> 00:58:57.909 A:middle L:90%
a big part of the problem in this country is

1034
00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:04.469 A:middle L:90%
the fact that higher education is so decentralized and I

1035
00:59:04.469 --> 00:59:06.969 A:middle L:90%
mean Brian knows this better than I do. But

1036
00:59:06.969 --> 00:59:09.590 A:middle L:90%
in the UK, where you have the the research

1037
00:59:09.590 --> 00:59:12.940 A:middle L:90%
councils of the U. K. Where it's more

1038
00:59:12.940 --> 00:59:15.719 A:middle L:90%
of a top town approaching things, there's no way

1039
00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:16.670 A:middle L:90%
in this country, too. I mean, the

1040
00:59:16.670 --> 00:59:20.739 A:middle L:90%
White House mandated, this is the closest we have

1041
00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:22.409 A:middle L:90%
. But even there it's not. It doesn't.

1042
00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:25.119 A:middle L:90%
It just simply says you have got to do this

1043
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:30.239 A:middle L:90%
. It doesn't implement any structure for it to happen

1044
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:34.309 A:middle L:90%
. And everything has to happen with all these institutions

1045
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:38.250 A:middle L:90%
, many various and different kinds of institutions all buying

1046
00:59:38.250 --> 00:59:42.130 A:middle L:90%
in, and nobody is sort of taking the lead

1047
00:59:42.139 --> 00:59:45.139 A:middle L:90%
. You had attempts by some institutions like Harvard does

1048
00:59:45.150 --> 00:59:50.960 A:middle L:90%
they require. There are gradually to publish open access

1049
00:59:51.110 --> 00:59:54.110 A:middle L:90%
. They have an opt out, but the default

1050
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:58.769 A:middle L:90%
is you opt in. But it's not just Harvard

1051
00:59:58.780 --> 01:00:00.920 A:middle L:90%
University, Kansas, for instance. So another land

1052
01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:04.900 A:middle L:90%
grant institutions. So it can be. I mean

1053
01:00:04.909 --> 01:00:07.590 A:middle L:90%
, there has to be collective will, and unfortunately

1054
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.369 A:middle L:90%
we don't have any way to harness that collective will

1055
01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:16.639 A:middle L:90%
at this point in this country with a you or

1056
01:00:17.010 --> 01:00:21.329 A:middle L:90%
land grant. They failed. You aren't there are

1057
01:00:21.340 --> 01:00:25.780 A:middle L:90%
organizations like that that would be correct system. I

1058
01:00:25.780 --> 01:00:28.230 A:middle L:90%
would think so. but they don't have teeth.

1059
01:00:29.710 --> 01:00:34.340 A:middle L:90%
They can't the members of the au jus. How

1060
01:00:34.340 --> 01:00:37.239 A:middle L:90%
many? How many members? But they're powerful,

1061
01:00:40.110 --> 01:00:44.590 A:middle L:90%
right? But are all those members going to to

1062
01:00:44.590 --> 01:00:46.190 A:middle L:90%
agree? I don't know. It's a good idea

1063
01:00:46.190 --> 01:00:50.840 A:middle L:90%
. Let's assume that what one thing they have to

1064
01:00:50.849 --> 01:00:52.139 A:middle L:90%
be prepared to do is play the lobbying game.

1065
01:00:52.710 --> 01:00:58.920 A:middle L:90%
Because the large publishers are all constantly lobbying Congress for

1066
01:00:58.929 --> 01:01:00.150 A:middle L:90%
against open access, trying to get the mandates shut

1067
01:01:00.150 --> 01:01:05.179 A:middle L:90%
down and so forth to even sometimes when you're defending

1068
01:01:05.179 --> 01:01:07.579 A:middle L:90%
a position, you put more resources into and when

1069
01:01:07.579 --> 01:01:09.829 A:middle L:90%
we want to change things were not prepared to.

1070
01:01:10.210 --> 01:01:12.539 A:middle L:90%
So we have to. We have to be prepared

1071
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:13.940 A:middle L:90%
to play them at their own game this month.

1072
01:01:16.110 --> 01:01:20.380 A:middle L:90%
So I think that there are other kinds of contributions

1073
01:01:20.389 --> 01:01:28.239 A:middle L:90%
besides the the organized collected will. So as graduate

1074
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:30.619 A:middle L:90%
students and future faculty, you will be asked to

1075
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:34.440 A:middle L:90%
review, and you probably already do review articles.

1076
01:01:34.449 --> 01:01:37.130 A:middle L:90%
You might end up being an editor, So the

1077
01:01:37.130 --> 01:01:39.010 A:middle L:90%
decisions that you make as to what you will say

1078
01:01:39.010 --> 01:01:42.670 A:middle L:90%
, yes, I love your view for this journal

1079
01:01:42.690 --> 01:01:45.789 A:middle L:90%
will give my free labor. Um, yes,

1080
01:01:45.789 --> 01:01:47.500 A:middle L:90%
I will serve on an editorial board. I ran

1081
01:01:47.500 --> 01:01:53.280 A:middle L:90%
a journal. Those are also impactful decisions that you

1082
01:01:53.289 --> 01:01:58.750 A:middle L:90%
can make to support or not support what kind of

1083
01:01:58.750 --> 01:02:01.150 A:middle L:90%
reality he went to the future. A good example

1084
01:02:01.150 --> 01:02:05.059 A:middle L:90%
. I'd like Brian to mention he gave this example

1085
01:02:05.059 --> 01:02:08.889 A:middle L:90%
this morning of a journal that his company publishes that

1086
01:02:08.889 --> 01:02:12.920 A:middle L:90%
started as an Elsevier's journal and how that happened just

1087
01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:14.969 A:middle L:90%
to give people a sense of how it works,

1088
01:02:14.969 --> 01:02:19.880 A:middle L:90%
when when there's a rebellion and open rebellion against subscription

1089
01:02:20.050 --> 01:02:22.309 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, there's been a lot of rebellions against

1090
01:02:22.309 --> 01:02:24.110 A:middle L:90%
also because they do fund the fund, these bills

1091
01:02:24.110 --> 01:02:27.809 A:middle L:90%
going before Congress and so forth that are anti away

1092
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:30.139 A:middle L:90%
. So that was the cost of knowledge petition a

1093
01:02:30.139 --> 01:02:32.280 A:middle L:90%
while back, 30,000 signatures saying We will never review

1094
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:35.300 A:middle L:90%
for elsewhere on Reddit for them or anything like that

1095
01:02:35.309 --> 01:02:37.260 A:middle L:90%
. I signed it. So now I I did

1096
01:02:37.260 --> 01:02:37.659 A:middle L:90%
publishing a lot of the journalism, my field,

1097
01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:38.980 A:middle L:90%
even if it's open access, because I said I

1098
01:02:38.980 --> 01:02:43.360 A:middle L:90%
wouldn't do that because that's one. There are large

1099
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:44.989 A:middle L:90%
numbers of people trying to change things, but this

1100
01:02:44.989 --> 01:02:46.150 A:middle L:90%
journal was with with how severe it was called lingua

1101
01:02:46.159 --> 01:02:50.829 A:middle L:90%
linguistics, quite a popular one very, very top

1102
01:02:50.829 --> 01:02:53.489 A:middle L:90%
in its its area of the discipline and they repeatedly

1103
01:02:53.489 --> 01:02:55.599 A:middle L:90%
ourselves severe. They gave them lots of chances.

1104
01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:58.190 A:middle L:90%
They said We want to be open access and they

1105
01:02:58.190 --> 01:03:00.750 A:middle L:90%
said No and they said We want They said eventually

1106
01:03:00.750 --> 01:03:02.980 A:middle L:90%
. Also, they said show that's OK,£3000

1107
01:03:04.510 --> 01:03:06.630 A:middle L:90%
dollar ABC And they said, No, we need

1108
01:03:06.630 --> 01:03:07.590 A:middle L:90%
it to be a fair price that people can afford

1109
01:03:07.590 --> 01:03:09.619 A:middle L:90%
. We don't double nothing else if they said no

1110
01:03:10.099 --> 01:03:13.829 A:middle L:90%
and they have very, very strong contracts and they

1111
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:15.579 A:middle L:90%
really didn't believe that the Journal would leave. But

1112
01:03:15.579 --> 01:03:17.449 A:middle L:90%
what happened in the end was because the Journal didn't

1113
01:03:17.449 --> 01:03:20.449 A:middle L:90%
own it wasn't owned by the editors. So they

1114
01:03:20.449 --> 01:03:23.360 A:middle L:90%
all resigned on Mass that the editor in chief resigned

1115
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.869 A:middle L:90%
. All 31 board members resigned and they founded a

1116
01:03:25.869 --> 01:03:30.119 A:middle L:90%
new journal. Um, and about 100 people withdrew

1117
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:31.019 A:middle L:90%
their papers and moved them to the new journal.

1118
01:03:31.699 --> 01:03:35.449 A:middle L:90%
Um, and that that was really important. But

1119
01:03:35.449 --> 01:03:37.949 A:middle L:90%
what also happened was the large amount of community got

1120
01:03:37.949 --> 01:03:38.809 A:middle L:90%
very active on social media and so forth and said

1121
01:03:38.820 --> 01:03:42.820 A:middle L:90%
encouraged people not to submit to the old elsewhere journal

1122
01:03:42.820 --> 01:03:44.929 A:middle L:90%
because the community was no longer behind it. So

1123
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:46.900 A:middle L:90%
it is really possible for journals now to move and

1124
01:03:46.900 --> 01:03:49.840 A:middle L:90%
now there's a lot of funding coming behind that sort

1125
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:52.440 A:middle L:90%
of activity. So if journals do want to move

1126
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:54.380 A:middle L:90%
away from large publishers, there are funding bodies.

1127
01:03:54.389 --> 01:03:57.389 A:middle L:90%
The Dutch government, for example, is funding a

1128
01:03:57.389 --> 01:04:00.440 A:middle L:90%
lot of this in Europe. Um, they'll say

1129
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:01.019 A:middle L:90%
, Okay, we'll cover all the PCs if you

1130
01:04:01.030 --> 01:04:03.650 A:middle L:90%
if you shift because you know, if you're if

1131
01:04:03.650 --> 01:04:08.219 A:middle L:90%
you're willing to take the plunge. So yeah,

1132
01:04:08.230 --> 01:04:12.050 A:middle L:90%
and I think there's we need more of that happening

1133
01:04:12.050 --> 01:04:14.949 A:middle L:90%
. I think that's and that's where the faculty of

1134
01:04:14.949 --> 01:04:19.110 A:middle L:90%
tomorrow I'm willing to do this, take the risk

1135
01:04:20.690 --> 01:04:24.239 A:middle L:90%
. And once you've seen people take that risk and

1136
01:04:24.250 --> 01:04:28.150 A:middle L:90%
actually achieve the flip, then you realize it's much

1137
01:04:28.150 --> 01:04:31.570 A:middle L:90%
more possible than we thought before, possibly we assumed

1138
01:04:31.730 --> 01:04:36.440 A:middle L:90%
they were just so everybody in this jail, Michael

1139
01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:44.150 A:middle L:90%
and his skills of searching the Internet has something you

1140
01:04:44.150 --> 01:04:49.250 A:middle L:90%
and a pl you. Tracy. It looks like

1141
01:04:49.250 --> 01:04:51.880 A:middle L:90%
they're in favor of a longer embargo. I believe

1142
01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:54.780 A:middle L:90%
faster. It was not a good thing. Yeah

1143
01:04:54.789 --> 01:04:58.800 A:middle L:90%
, it looks like it's something that was that was

1144
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:00.949 A:middle L:90%
one of those pieces of legislation that was put forward

1145
01:05:00.949 --> 01:05:03.909 A:middle L:90%
after the last ones taken down. Does everybody understand

1146
01:05:03.909 --> 01:05:09.389 A:middle L:90%
the concept of embargo? What happens when that some

1147
01:05:09.389 --> 01:05:11.420 A:middle L:90%
journals will say. Okay, well, well,

1148
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:15.460 A:middle L:90%
some publishers say, well, they want to protect

1149
01:05:15.469 --> 01:05:16.809 A:middle L:90%
their journal subscriptions. So what they say? Well

1150
01:05:16.809 --> 01:05:19.289 A:middle L:90%
, go open access, but it will be after

1151
01:05:19.289 --> 01:05:24.329 A:middle L:90%
a period of, say, a year, so

1152
01:05:24.340 --> 01:05:29.099 A:middle L:90%
they protect their subscriptions. But then it goes open

1153
01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:32.039 A:middle L:90%
access later on, and that's maybe find to a

1154
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:34.630 A:middle L:90%
degree. But in some areas of research, it

1155
01:05:34.630 --> 01:05:40.739 A:middle L:90%
is. That year is critical to the distribution of

1156
01:05:40.750 --> 01:05:45.599 A:middle L:90%
that. That work? Mm hmm. It's slowing

1157
01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:47.000 A:middle L:90%
down scientific communication by a year. That's hurtling,

1158
01:05:47.789 --> 01:05:51.579 A:middle L:90%
right? So right. I guess the problem in

1159
01:05:51.579 --> 01:05:56.429 A:middle L:90%
my mind is really he is overcharging and the abuse

1160
01:05:56.429 --> 01:05:58.920 A:middle L:90%
of the system. Right? And, you know

1161
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:00.030 A:middle L:90%
, I'll give a small anecdote. I was at

1162
01:06:00.030 --> 01:06:02.869 A:middle L:90%
a conference. I stopped by a publisher. I

1163
01:06:02.869 --> 01:06:06.750 A:middle L:90%
won't say which one you know, they were talking

1164
01:06:06.750 --> 01:06:11.190 A:middle L:90%
about if you want to publish. And you I

1165
01:06:11.190 --> 01:06:12.780 A:middle L:90%
asked them. So what would the deal B.

1166
01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:15.900 A:middle L:90%
I was just curious as an author. How much

1167
01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:18.000 A:middle L:90%
would I get back from the book? And they

1168
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:20.289 A:middle L:90%
said, Well, you know, it depends.

1169
01:06:20.289 --> 01:06:21.820 A:middle L:90%
And so I said, Okay, just give me

1170
01:06:21.820 --> 01:06:24.960 A:middle L:90%
a number. Said, Well, if the if

1171
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:29.510 A:middle L:90%
the book is sold for$100 you will get back

1172
01:06:29.510 --> 01:06:32.710 A:middle L:90%
$6. Is it really? So you get 94%

1173
01:06:32.710 --> 01:06:36.329 A:middle L:90%
of the of the prophet. It's really an overcharging

1174
01:06:36.340 --> 01:06:39.409 A:middle L:90%
in the system. So in, in in my

1175
01:06:39.409 --> 01:06:41.980 A:middle L:90%
mind. So let me ask this question, uh

1176
01:06:41.989 --> 01:06:45.750 A:middle L:90%
, to me charging up front or charging later on

1177
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:48.429 A:middle L:90%
, it's just the business model, and you could

1178
01:06:48.460 --> 01:06:53.980 A:middle L:90%
potentially overcharge these away. Now the open access folks

1179
01:06:53.980 --> 01:06:56.460 A:middle L:90%
are not doing that. So that's two dedicated.

1180
01:06:56.469 --> 01:06:59.500 A:middle L:90%
But while some of them are, some of them

1181
01:06:59.500 --> 01:07:02.030 A:middle L:90%
are Some of the open access journals are charging.

1182
01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:06.730 A:middle L:90%
As we said,$5000 ABC's. And it's hard

1183
01:07:06.730 --> 01:07:11.610 A:middle L:90%
to justify that, Um and And when you talk

1184
01:07:11.610 --> 01:07:14.360 A:middle L:90%
to the journal publishers, what I what? What

1185
01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:16.010 A:middle L:90%
I hear is these numbers. They didn't come up

1186
01:07:16.019 --> 01:07:19.510 A:middle L:90%
with these numbers by working up a budget. They

1187
01:07:19.510 --> 01:07:23.500 A:middle L:90%
sort of throughout an early number and said, Well

1188
01:07:23.500 --> 01:07:27.559 A:middle L:90%
, let's start with 2500 or 3000 And it wasn't

1189
01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:29.679 A:middle L:90%
based upon, as far as I can tell.

1190
01:07:29.690 --> 01:07:33.079 A:middle L:90%
Any reality they were probably thinking, if I want

1191
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:35.500 A:middle L:90%
to retire by the age is what I need to

1192
01:07:35.510 --> 01:07:39.329 A:middle L:90%
charge every year, they have to charge more because

1193
01:07:39.329 --> 01:07:42.500 A:middle L:90%
their their shareholders insist that they make a bigger profit

1194
01:07:42.500 --> 01:07:45.030 A:middle L:90%
every year, right? So why Why Why aren't

1195
01:07:45.030 --> 01:07:48.619 A:middle L:90%
we trying to figure out a way where, uh

1196
01:07:48.630 --> 01:07:54.000 A:middle L:90%
, this overcharging can be stopped by some kind of

1197
01:07:54.780 --> 01:07:57.409 A:middle L:90%
your? Your studio has one win and insisted they

1198
01:07:57.409 --> 01:08:00.610 A:middle L:90%
kept the, um, the assistance of$1500.

1199
01:08:00.619 --> 01:08:03.559 A:middle L:90%
Well, that's that's a good thing. One thing

1200
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:05.969 A:middle L:90%
I'll point out is from a library perspective. The

1201
01:08:05.969 --> 01:08:12.610 A:middle L:90%
libraries all have to negotiate deals with these publishers and

1202
01:08:12.610 --> 01:08:15.190 A:middle L:90%
the public libraries are not allowed to talk to one

1203
01:08:15.190 --> 01:08:18.420 A:middle L:90%
another. Otherwise, it's collusion so that the system

1204
01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:21.390 A:middle L:90%
is, as Donald Trump would say, rigged.

1205
01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:26.510 A:middle L:90%
Um, yeah, that's the peak. Yeah,

1206
01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:30.880 A:middle L:90%
yeah, because if libraries could all get together and

1207
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:32.029 A:middle L:90%
say, Okay, well, we're not going to

1208
01:08:32.039 --> 01:08:34.789 A:middle L:90%
do this. You can't You can't do that.

1209
01:08:36.170 --> 01:08:38.729 A:middle L:90%
I can't sit here and listen to that. I

1210
01:08:38.729 --> 01:08:43.920 A:middle L:90%
think I'm a lawyer back. So there there's issues

1211
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:46.520 A:middle L:90%
that they have a monopoly position. It's still collusion

1212
01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.359 A:middle L:90%
. The fact they have a monopoly position is the

1213
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:53.149 A:middle L:90%
issue. I think it more than the library should

1214
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:57.420 A:middle L:90%
Glue library shouldn't just get that goodbye, but But

1215
01:08:57.430 --> 01:09:00.560 A:middle L:90%
I mean, the the fundamental question is what is

1216
01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:02.359 A:middle L:90%
it gives them the blocking position that it seems to

1217
01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:06.630 A:middle L:90%
me everybody in this room knows that the blocking position

1218
01:09:06.630 --> 01:09:10.020 A:middle L:90%
is related in some fashion, to the nature of

1219
01:09:10.020 --> 01:09:16.050 A:middle L:90%
which tenure and promotion and research plays into the incentives

1220
01:09:16.050 --> 01:09:21.250 A:middle L:90%
within the academic community and the fact that the publishers

1221
01:09:21.260 --> 01:09:24.090 A:middle L:90%
, I mean this will pass. It always does

1222
01:09:24.090 --> 01:09:27.090 A:middle L:90%
. You know there's a famous but can't keep going

1223
01:09:27.090 --> 01:09:30.359 A:middle L:90%
on period. It does eventually and maybe the tipping

1224
01:09:30.369 --> 01:09:31.949 A:middle L:90%
points here. But it seems to me it is

1225
01:09:31.960 --> 01:09:33.979 A:middle L:90%
. It is that mixture of the signaling, the

1226
01:09:33.989 --> 01:09:36.199 A:middle L:90%
prestige signaling. It's, you know, it's the

1227
01:09:36.210 --> 01:09:40.000 A:middle L:90%
faculty community sites who gets tenure. Nobody is going

1228
01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:42.850 A:middle L:90%
to take the risk to say this is a brilliant

1229
01:09:42.859 --> 01:09:45.229 A:middle L:90%
person, man or woman who was published and and

1230
01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:48.289 A:middle L:90%
And if you go into, uh, call it

1231
01:09:48.289 --> 01:09:51.029 A:middle L:90%
the Internet or whatever, you find that this paper

1232
01:09:51.029 --> 01:09:55.270 A:middle L:90%
is cited and you know that's risky proposition. Next

1233
01:09:55.270 --> 01:09:57.699 A:middle L:90%
year, why not? But it's hard for me

1234
01:09:57.699 --> 01:09:59.449 A:middle L:90%
. I'm a business guy. It's hard for me

1235
01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:00.010 A:middle L:90%
, not. It's hard for me to understand in

1236
01:10:00.010 --> 01:10:06.180 A:middle L:90%
this day and age wise. That's what I was

1237
01:10:06.180 --> 01:10:13.199 A:middle L:90%
saying earlier about the four these four mm services that

1238
01:10:13.210 --> 01:10:16.939 A:middle L:90%
scholarship performed. The journals perform the first three can

1239
01:10:16.939 --> 01:10:19.479 A:middle L:90%
all be done easily in an open access environment.

1240
01:10:19.859 --> 01:10:23.369 A:middle L:90%
I mean, they all can be, but the

1241
01:10:23.369 --> 01:10:26.380 A:middle L:90%
last one is is the biggest hurdle. It's that

1242
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:30.229 A:middle L:90%
how do we get past tenure and promotion and the

1243
01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:34.710 A:middle L:90%
sense of prestige that people will pay? People will

1244
01:10:34.710 --> 01:10:39.909 A:middle L:90%
pay more money than they should. If they're going

1245
01:10:39.909 --> 01:10:43.420 A:middle L:90%
to get a prestige journal, they think it's prestigious

1246
01:10:43.739 --> 01:10:45.789 A:middle L:90%
. They're going to pay more than what market.

1247
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:49.000 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. Uh huh. Partly it's because it takes

1248
01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:53.300 A:middle L:90%
time for journalists to gain prestige in any new journal

1249
01:10:53.300 --> 01:10:55.020 A:middle L:90%
being watched. There should be an open access point

1250
01:10:55.020 --> 01:10:58.930 A:middle L:90%
, really, So eventually they will. In any

1251
01:10:58.930 --> 01:11:00.739 A:middle L:90%
new field, you'll be launching an open access probably

1252
01:11:00.739 --> 01:11:03.720 A:middle L:90%
, and you will gain prestige eventually. That's not

1253
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:05.640 A:middle L:90%
gonna happen quickly, so, but again, to

1254
01:11:05.640 --> 01:11:09.850 A:middle L:90%
get back to that point, it's not open access

1255
01:11:09.850 --> 01:11:12.850 A:middle L:90%
versus not open access. It's a matter of overcharging

1256
01:11:12.850 --> 01:11:15.550 A:middle L:90%
or not overcharging because even if we say open access

1257
01:11:15.550 --> 01:11:17.560 A:middle L:90%
, but all of a sudden we end up with

1258
01:11:17.560 --> 01:11:21.680 A:middle L:90%
open access for charging 5500, then we are back

1259
01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:30.500 A:middle L:90%
at the same problem. So that's one aspect of

1260
01:11:30.510 --> 01:11:33.760 A:middle L:90%
the last comment. You will always have folks gouging

1261
01:11:33.770 --> 01:11:38.300 A:middle L:90%
because it will always be market forces. But let's

1262
01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:43.010 A:middle L:90%
play with the hypothetical that we actually dismantle. How

1263
01:11:43.010 --> 01:11:45.600 A:middle L:90%
10 years treated in academia. Let's just say that

1264
01:11:45.609 --> 01:11:50.659 A:middle L:90%
what Dating spoke about earlier occurs and folks started using

1265
01:11:50.670 --> 01:11:54.319 A:middle L:90%
open access. Maybe you can send a 50 50

1266
01:11:54.319 --> 01:11:57.590 A:middle L:90%
split. It moves to 80 20. Can you

1267
01:11:57.590 --> 01:12:00.340 A:middle L:90%
not see how we would then direct the same power

1268
01:12:00.340 --> 01:12:03.500 A:middle L:90%
structures that we currently have in academia in an open

1269
01:12:03.500 --> 01:12:09.939 A:middle L:90%
access environment? Were simply just transferring our behaviors into

1270
01:12:09.939 --> 01:12:16.140 A:middle L:90%
a different marches to war? It really requires dialogue

1271
01:12:16.149 --> 01:12:18.949 A:middle L:90%
when pressing you guys to talk about is why is

1272
01:12:18.949 --> 01:12:24.119 A:middle L:90%
there not dialogue taking place between academia and the open

1273
01:12:24.119 --> 01:12:27.819 A:middle L:90%
access community so that there could be a strategy towards

1274
01:12:27.829 --> 01:12:31.579 A:middle L:90%
a smart change and not creating a new opportunity to

1275
01:12:31.579 --> 01:12:34.930 A:middle L:90%
simply transfer the power over to the new format?

1276
01:12:35.949 --> 01:12:39.279 A:middle L:90%
Well, I do think that conversation is happening.

1277
01:12:39.289 --> 01:12:44.069 A:middle L:90%
It's just it's building and it's growing over time.

1278
01:12:44.550 --> 01:12:47.460 A:middle L:90%
But I don't again. It's a question of whether

1279
01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:53.989 A:middle L:90%
there is enough. Their structures are in place to

1280
01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:58.380 A:middle L:90%
be able to once that discussion happens to actually make

1281
01:12:58.850 --> 01:13:03.270 A:middle L:90%
a, you know, national or international change that

1282
01:13:03.279 --> 01:13:06.880 A:middle L:90%
is, there. Is there the framework in place

1283
01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:12.520 A:middle L:90%
to be able to actually shift the system. That's

1284
01:13:12.520 --> 01:13:15.109 A:middle L:90%
that's something I just I don't think it's there yet

1285
01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:18.500 A:middle L:90%
. Yes, I think one of the issues and

1286
01:13:18.510 --> 01:13:21.659 A:middle L:90%
this is where you're coming from from someone who's on

1287
01:13:21.659 --> 01:13:27.710 A:middle L:90%
the other side of the graduate student, hopefully a

1288
01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:30.720 A:middle L:90%
future faculty members. I just don't see the incentive

1289
01:13:30.729 --> 01:13:33.649 A:middle L:90%
to go open access because he's talking about price gouging

1290
01:13:33.659 --> 01:13:36.989 A:middle L:90%
. Price gouging? Well, only difference right now

1291
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:42.680 A:middle L:90%
between limited access versus open access. If I go

1292
01:13:42.680 --> 01:13:46.029 A:middle L:90%
on Google Scholar and I search it and its close

1293
01:13:46.029 --> 01:13:49.079 A:middle L:90%
access to copy paste the name of the article Growth

1294
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:53.560 A:middle L:90%
library website and, like search and then have to

1295
01:13:53.569 --> 01:13:55.159 A:middle L:90%
go like I have, like, five or six

1296
01:13:55.159 --> 01:13:59.069 A:middle L:90%
more clicks to get access it right. So the

1297
01:13:59.069 --> 01:14:02.680 A:middle L:90%
institution then fronts the cost and versus open access.

1298
01:14:03.859 --> 01:14:09.170 A:middle L:90%
Okay, pdf comes out. Um, and then

1299
01:14:09.170 --> 01:14:12.489 A:middle L:90%
when publishing obviously has a faculty member or even as

1300
01:14:12.489 --> 01:14:15.060 A:middle L:90%
a grad student publishing, that means I've got to

1301
01:14:15.069 --> 01:14:16.180 A:middle L:90%
pay a front versus I don't have to pay or

1302
01:14:16.180 --> 01:14:19.460 A:middle L:90%
it's a very small fee or something. So the

1303
01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:25.260 A:middle L:90%
the incentive and we're talking about how much how big

1304
01:14:25.270 --> 01:14:29.199 A:middle L:90%
the industry is. The publishers are creating that much

1305
01:14:29.199 --> 01:14:31.340 A:middle L:90%
of an incentive for us to want to go open

1306
01:14:31.340 --> 01:14:35.369 A:middle L:90%
access as as, uh, faculty members. Because

1307
01:14:35.739 --> 01:14:40.880 A:middle L:90%
here it's reducing the upfront cost to stay closed access

1308
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:42.210 A:middle L:90%
. So we don't have to pay as much up

1309
01:14:42.220 --> 01:14:45.489 A:middle L:90%
front to publish the institution, whether it be at

1310
01:14:45.489 --> 01:14:48.659 A:middle L:90%
a national lab or at a company where I was

1311
01:14:48.659 --> 01:14:51.920 A:middle L:90%
working in industry. So the company will pay per

1312
01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:57.050 A:middle L:90%
article or a subscription or the university or the research

1313
01:14:57.050 --> 01:15:00.159 A:middle L:90%
institute. They would pay for the subscription and then

1314
01:15:00.170 --> 01:15:02.810 A:middle L:90%
publish articles, Close access and it's free. Or

1315
01:15:02.819 --> 01:15:06.800 A:middle L:90%
, you know, the incentive. I feel like

1316
01:15:06.810 --> 01:15:11.069 A:middle L:90%
maybe it's on purpose. Maybe they're trying to distance

1317
01:15:11.079 --> 01:15:14.539 A:middle L:90%
to incentivize. Sure. Well, definitely. This

1318
01:15:14.539 --> 01:15:15.949 A:middle L:90%
is what I think should I'm interested with yours.

1319
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:20.760 A:middle L:90%
Your perspective on this Looking at Flint? Mhm.

1320
01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:26.829 A:middle L:90%
All right. There's a community that most people probably

1321
01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:30.960 A:middle L:90%
do not have access to the research, and you've

1322
01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:33.050 A:middle L:90%
seen it firsthand. What? How would you respond

1323
01:15:33.050 --> 01:15:34.970 A:middle L:90%
to that? So, I mean, you were

1324
01:15:34.970 --> 01:15:39.020 A:middle L:90%
right when you said you personally have any incentive to

1325
01:15:39.020 --> 01:15:41.810 A:middle L:90%
go open access or open data and open science or

1326
01:15:41.810 --> 01:15:45.689 A:middle L:90%
open uh, whatever. The point, though,

1327
01:15:45.689 --> 01:15:49.939 A:middle L:90%
is Should you care if your research affects people,

1328
01:15:49.939 --> 01:15:55.329 A:middle L:90%
impacts people changes lives. A big mission statement that

1329
01:15:55.340 --> 01:15:58.720 A:middle L:90%
every university has and most of them don't follow is

1330
01:15:58.729 --> 01:16:00.520 A:middle L:90%
, you know, dissemination of knowledge service to the

1331
01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:03.590 A:middle L:90%
public. It's all great words, but people just

1332
01:16:03.590 --> 01:16:06.619 A:middle L:90%
don't follow it. And the culture that is in

1333
01:16:06.619 --> 01:16:10.560 A:middle L:90%
place currently is says, you know, X amount

1334
01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:12.590 A:middle L:90%
of dollars. Why? Why? Number of papers

1335
01:16:12.590 --> 01:16:14.609 A:middle L:90%
via a number of parents, and that's how I

1336
01:16:14.609 --> 01:16:16.060 A:middle L:90%
move forward. If I don't do that, I

1337
01:16:16.069 --> 01:16:17.819 A:middle L:90%
wouldn't have a job. I won't have 10 years

1338
01:16:17.829 --> 01:16:20.319 A:middle L:90%
. I would not progress. So if academics don't

1339
01:16:20.319 --> 01:16:23.640 A:middle L:90%
talk about it to begin with, nothing is gonna

1340
01:16:23.649 --> 01:16:26.159 A:middle L:90%
change. Open access, closed access. We can

1341
01:16:26.159 --> 01:16:28.399 A:middle L:90%
talk about that later. So first it's the matter

1342
01:16:28.399 --> 01:16:30.470 A:middle L:90%
of institutional cultures. Uh, if all of us

1343
01:16:30.470 --> 01:16:34.409 A:middle L:90%
start talking about how our research can impact, science

1344
01:16:34.409 --> 01:16:38.460 A:middle L:90%
can advance knowledge can change the world. Once we

1345
01:16:38.460 --> 01:16:40.800 A:middle L:90%
get to that point where everyone is interested in actually

1346
01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:43.220 A:middle L:90%
pursuing research as a public good, that's the title

1347
01:16:43.220 --> 01:16:45.649 A:middle L:90%
of, uh, the forum. If all of

1348
01:16:45.649 --> 01:16:48.449 A:middle L:90%
us agree that we can advance knowledge and help the

1349
01:16:48.449 --> 01:16:53.090 A:middle L:90%
public help the scientific community, then we can talk

1350
01:16:53.090 --> 01:16:57.270 A:middle L:90%
about a case like Flint that I mean we,

1351
01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:00.000 A:middle L:90%
I think, broke every rule in the academic rule

1352
01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:01.600 A:middle L:90%
book. Uh, in my opinion, uh,

1353
01:17:01.609 --> 01:17:06.560 A:middle L:90%
because we did what's called citizen Science, where normal

1354
01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.989 A:middle L:90%
citizens, uh, tested, you know, took

1355
01:17:09.989 --> 01:17:12.920 A:middle L:90%
water samples, send them back to us. And

1356
01:17:12.920 --> 01:17:16.029 A:middle L:90%
we published everything online as we got them. Uh

1357
01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:17.550 A:middle L:90%
, so usually, you know, we hold on

1358
01:17:17.550 --> 01:17:19.409 A:middle L:90%
the data that we publish it, and now I

1359
01:17:19.409 --> 01:17:21.710 A:middle L:90%
have a paper. Everyone, please love me.

1360
01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:25.590 A:middle L:90%
I have a paper now. Um, but here

1361
01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.119 A:middle L:90%
, everything was so dire. I mean, the

1362
01:17:28.130 --> 01:17:30.689 A:middle L:90%
consequences of not getting the data out was people would

1363
01:17:30.699 --> 01:17:33.630 A:middle L:90%
be drinking toxic water. So Flint is a great

1364
01:17:33.630 --> 01:17:38.319 A:middle L:90%
example of where you need data. You need information

1365
01:17:38.329 --> 01:17:40.220 A:middle L:90%
. You need a, uh, you know,

1366
01:17:40.229 --> 01:17:44.399 A:middle L:90%
vetted quality scientific information out there that people can look

1367
01:17:44.399 --> 01:17:45.649 A:middle L:90%
at and see. Okay. Should I be worried

1368
01:17:45.649 --> 01:17:49.989 A:middle L:90%
about my my child or my family? So open

1369
01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:53.970 A:middle L:90%
? And we knew going in that this was self

1370
01:17:53.970 --> 01:17:56.470 A:middle L:90%
funded by the way we the group spent over a

1371
01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.439 A:middle L:90%
quarter of a million dollars on this endeavor. Uh

1372
01:17:59.449 --> 01:18:00.970 A:middle L:90%
, no, that really researcher has that kind of

1373
01:18:00.970 --> 01:18:02.920 A:middle L:90%
money. So the structure in place, everything is

1374
01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:05.979 A:middle L:90%
stacked against you. I mean, if a community

1375
01:18:05.979 --> 01:18:08.949 A:middle L:90%
reaches out to you and asks for health. You

1376
01:18:08.949 --> 01:18:12.420 A:middle L:90%
don't have money. You have limited lab resources.

1377
01:18:12.420 --> 01:18:15.899 A:middle L:90%
But I have my research projects, and money is

1378
01:18:15.899 --> 01:18:17.289 A:middle L:90%
scared. NSF want this project, And why should

1379
01:18:17.289 --> 01:18:20.489 A:middle L:90%
I help? So our our incentives are so out

1380
01:18:20.489 --> 01:18:24.319 A:middle L:90%
of place where there is no motive, there is

1381
01:18:24.329 --> 01:18:28.619 A:middle L:90%
where we should be helping society. So I mean

1382
01:18:28.630 --> 01:18:30.760 A:middle L:90%
, And while you said we're talking about open science

1383
01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:32.829 A:middle L:90%
and people are getting on board, but I don't

1384
01:18:32.829 --> 01:18:35.500 A:middle L:90%
think it's fast enough. There is the people of

1385
01:18:35.510 --> 01:18:39.579 A:middle L:90%
the 20th century. Researchers who are sitting on these

1386
01:18:39.579 --> 01:18:42.739 A:middle L:90%
high positions have a vested interest on this continuing,

1387
01:18:42.750 --> 01:18:44.890 A:middle L:90%
uh, that, you know, they are in

1388
01:18:44.890 --> 01:18:47.550 A:middle L:90%
this position because even if they produced scrap science,

1389
01:18:47.560 --> 01:18:51.079 A:middle L:90%
they have an H index of 95. So they

1390
01:18:51.090 --> 01:18:54.439 A:middle L:90%
mean they want the system to be in place.

1391
01:18:54.619 --> 01:18:56.850 A:middle L:90%
And if you and I don't change it, this

1392
01:18:56.850 --> 01:19:00.739 A:middle L:90%
will continue. I had dinner with this great national

1393
01:19:00.739 --> 01:19:02.779 A:middle L:90%
academy, uh, scientists who got a job at

1394
01:19:02.779 --> 01:19:05.149 A:middle L:90%
Berkeley because someone called him and said, Hey,

1395
01:19:05.149 --> 01:19:06.310 A:middle L:90%
do you want to be a professor? And he

1396
01:19:06.310 --> 01:19:09.680 A:middle L:90%
said, Yes. This was in the 19 fifties

1397
01:19:09.689 --> 01:19:12.729 A:middle L:90%
when used to write when you need money for a

1398
01:19:12.739 --> 01:19:15.699 A:middle L:90%
for a research project he would write like one pager

1399
01:19:15.710 --> 01:19:17.359 A:middle L:90%
and he would have money. That's not the structure

1400
01:19:17.359 --> 01:19:20.800 A:middle L:90%
. Now you write 15 pages for a research project

1401
01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:23.800 A:middle L:90%
that you know will get funded. You know,

1402
01:19:23.810 --> 01:19:25.979 A:middle L:90%
if it's brand new or it's exciting, it won't

1403
01:19:25.979 --> 01:19:28.300 A:middle L:90%
get funded. So the point is, our structures

1404
01:19:28.310 --> 01:19:31.239 A:middle L:90%
are culture, and academia is so misplaced that you're

1405
01:19:31.239 --> 01:19:33.189 A:middle L:90%
right. You would not help or you would not

1406
01:19:33.189 --> 01:19:39.909 A:middle L:90%
do anything open. Yeah, let me just add

1407
01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:42.159 A:middle L:90%
a little bit because as I hear all of us

1408
01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:45.939 A:middle L:90%
talking, for the most part, we're talking about

1409
01:19:46.020 --> 01:19:53.670 A:middle L:90%
a product called article. What we should be talking

1410
01:19:53.670 --> 01:19:57.949 A:middle L:90%
about and I think it gets to Henry's point is

1411
01:19:57.949 --> 01:20:02.609 A:middle L:90%
rather than the final product. It's the briefings they

1412
01:20:02.619 --> 01:20:05.760 A:middle L:90%
pay the data that you put out there. So

1413
01:20:05.770 --> 01:20:10.850 A:middle L:90%
I think we need to move away from the product

1414
01:20:10.859 --> 01:20:14.699 A:middle L:90%
of research, the journal article, etcetera and more

1415
01:20:14.710 --> 01:20:19.930 A:middle L:90%
into the process of sharing information, which is not

1416
01:20:20.409 --> 01:20:23.609 A:middle L:90%
just open. Well, it is open access,

1417
01:20:23.609 --> 01:20:25.729 A:middle L:90%
but it's kind of like what our colleagues at U

1418
01:20:25.729 --> 01:20:27.949 A:middle L:90%
V. A are doing. But it is really

1419
01:20:27.960 --> 01:20:33.449 A:middle L:90%
rethinking how we do the scholarship and how we share

1420
01:20:33.449 --> 01:20:36.000 A:middle L:90%
it, and the times when we share it that

1421
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:39.699 A:middle L:90%
is going to change the paradigm. And, Henry

1422
01:20:39.699 --> 01:20:42.890 A:middle L:90%
, I'm hoping that when this paradigm shifts, we

1423
01:20:42.890 --> 01:20:47.689 A:middle L:90%
don't just repeat what we're doing now reproduce that of

1424
01:20:47.699 --> 01:20:50.819 A:middle L:90%
the past, but that we take a whole different

1425
01:20:50.829 --> 01:20:56.539 A:middle L:90%
way of looking at how we, um, share

1426
01:20:57.010 --> 01:20:59.699 A:middle L:90%
and we do our the process. And is there

1427
01:20:59.699 --> 01:21:03.159 A:middle L:90%
something about open access that leads us to think that

1428
01:21:03.270 --> 01:21:08.979 A:middle L:90%
it is inherently less our you know, the power

1429
01:21:08.979 --> 01:21:10.800 A:middle L:90%
structure is different. Going to be different in an

1430
01:21:10.800 --> 01:21:13.180 A:middle L:90%
open access. Well, um, I think it

1431
01:21:13.180 --> 01:21:15.539 A:middle L:90%
can be I think it should be, in fact

1432
01:21:15.539 --> 01:21:16.890 A:middle L:90%
, some of the things that you sent for class

1433
01:21:16.890 --> 01:21:21.500 A:middle L:90%
I'm trying to remember which one had the, uh

1434
01:21:21.510 --> 01:21:26.220 A:middle L:90%
the piece about you can interact with the data and

1435
01:21:26.220 --> 01:21:29.199 A:middle L:90%
searching If you've got open access, you have all

1436
01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:30.770 A:middle L:90%
of these journals. And it's not just cutting and

1437
01:21:30.770 --> 01:21:35.130 A:middle L:90%
pasting and getting it. But open access allows for

1438
01:21:35.130 --> 01:21:40.359 A:middle L:90%
me to sit there with 200 different pieces and do

1439
01:21:40.359 --> 01:21:44.689 A:middle L:90%
some sorting and pulling the information together, which then

1440
01:21:44.689 --> 01:21:46.319 A:middle L:90%
helps me. I can't read all those articles,

1441
01:21:46.510 --> 01:21:49.180 A:middle L:90%
but I can go through and gather all of that

1442
01:21:49.189 --> 01:21:50.829 A:middle L:90%
. That, to me, is part of what

1443
01:21:51.010 --> 01:21:55.909 A:middle L:90%
open access is It's not just a product, it

1444
01:21:55.909 --> 01:21:59.439 A:middle L:90%
is the process by which we gather additional information.

1445
01:21:59.439 --> 01:22:01.739 A:middle L:90%
That's where I say, I think where, when

1446
01:22:01.739 --> 01:22:03.529 A:middle L:90%
I think of it that way, I start to

1447
01:22:03.539 --> 01:22:08.359 A:middle L:90%
think that it's an inevitable thing that it's going to

1448
01:22:08.369 --> 01:22:11.810 A:middle L:90%
happen because the cash is out of the bag.

1449
01:22:11.819 --> 01:22:14.880 A:middle L:90%
It's hard to go back once you start getting a

1450
01:22:14.890 --> 01:22:18.250 A:middle L:90%
taste of what open access allows that access to data

1451
01:22:18.260 --> 01:22:20.350 A:middle L:90%
, the ability. And when we see the immediate

1452
01:22:20.350 --> 01:22:25.689 A:middle L:90%
results of big data and what kinds of advancements we're

1453
01:22:25.689 --> 01:22:28.010 A:middle L:90%
having, it's hard to look back and say that

1454
01:22:28.020 --> 01:22:30.079 A:middle L:90%
the old system is better. So but just to

1455
01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:35.539 A:middle L:90%
comment again, I don't I don't see a contradiction

1456
01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:43.220 A:middle L:90%
between sharing your data or sharing your Jupiter notebook or

1457
01:22:43.229 --> 01:22:45.619 A:middle L:90%
any of that. It was the old system.

1458
01:22:45.699 --> 01:22:47.199 A:middle L:90%
It could still happen. There is nothing that prevents

1459
01:22:48.100 --> 01:22:51.210 A:middle L:90%
. I'm not advocating for it. I'm just saying

1460
01:22:51.390 --> 01:22:58.409 A:middle L:90%
we're kind of confusing some things together here, Uh

1461
01:22:58.420 --> 01:23:01.850 A:middle L:90%
, and again it seems to me like so look

1462
01:23:01.850 --> 01:23:05.319 A:middle L:90%
, I mean human beings, you've got fear.

1463
01:23:05.319 --> 01:23:08.600 A:middle L:90%
You've got agreed. You got survival instincts. You

1464
01:23:08.600 --> 01:23:10.239 A:middle L:90%
put those things together. People are not going to

1465
01:23:10.250 --> 01:23:12.760 A:middle L:90%
change. They're going to be pushing toward what they

1466
01:23:12.760 --> 01:23:15.539 A:middle L:90%
are doing, you know, And it seems like

1467
01:23:15.539 --> 01:23:19.670 A:middle L:90%
the system is already protecting itself by not having libraries

1468
01:23:19.680 --> 01:23:23.909 A:middle L:90%
colluding or talking to each other. Right, Um

1469
01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:29.869 A:middle L:90%
so maybe a competition in place is gonna He's going

1470
01:23:29.869 --> 01:23:32.220 A:middle L:90%
to make people go to over the better system.

1471
01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:35.210 A:middle L:90%
So the question I have is why? Why don't

1472
01:23:35.210 --> 01:23:42.399 A:middle L:90%
universities, Because having their own journals and go for

1473
01:23:42.399 --> 01:23:45.569 A:middle L:90%
that Well, we're trying to do that. We're

1474
01:23:45.569 --> 01:23:46.119 A:middle L:90%
trying to do that, but it's, you know

1475
01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:53.670 A:middle L:90%
, you're finding a big big when 60 or 40%

1476
01:23:53.670 --> 01:23:56.930 A:middle L:90%
of the journals are owned by A by four publishing

1477
01:23:56.930 --> 01:24:00.140 A:middle L:90%
companies. And they, as Brian was saying they

1478
01:24:00.140 --> 01:24:02.520 A:middle L:90%
will sue at every instance they will. They're going

1479
01:24:02.520 --> 01:24:06.840 A:middle L:90%
to the clinic is what they you know, Uh

1480
01:24:06.850 --> 01:24:11.170 A:middle L:90%
, the out of my day and trying to pull

1481
01:24:11.170 --> 01:24:13.279 A:middle L:90%
my gun. You know, that's that's their approach

1482
01:24:13.279 --> 01:24:15.819 A:middle L:90%
to their journals. But we have some strings.

1483
01:24:15.819 --> 01:24:17.680 A:middle L:90%
So, for example, you know, for example

1484
01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:20.640 A:middle L:90%
, Virginia Tech, one of the top 10 in

1485
01:24:20.649 --> 01:24:24.319 A:middle L:90%
engineering or in civil engineering. I'll talk about my

1486
01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:27.579 A:middle L:90%
field, Um, so if if you have a

1487
01:24:27.579 --> 01:24:30.739 A:middle L:90%
journal for civil engineering, you know it's respected,

1488
01:24:30.750 --> 01:24:32.699 A:middle L:90%
it's you're going to have for genetic. You're going

1489
01:24:32.699 --> 01:24:34.619 A:middle L:90%
to have to You're gonna have Berkeley. You're going

1490
01:24:34.619 --> 01:24:38.529 A:middle L:90%
to have Mitt in that field, right? And

1491
01:24:38.529 --> 01:24:41.250 A:middle L:90%
then some other colleges are going to be, uh

1492
01:24:41.260 --> 01:24:45.579 A:middle L:90%
, maybe by some, uh, Virginia attack or

1493
01:24:45.590 --> 01:24:47.149 A:middle L:90%
some other places. So it's not a matter of

1494
01:24:47.149 --> 01:24:48.979 A:middle L:90%
suing. It's not colluding. It's not. It's

1495
01:24:48.979 --> 01:24:53.199 A:middle L:90%
none of that. It's a competitor. That is

1496
01:24:53.210 --> 01:24:56.970 A:middle L:90%
respectful. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. I mean

1497
01:24:56.979 --> 01:25:01.300 A:middle L:90%
, I I get that. Yeah, that has

1498
01:25:01.300 --> 01:25:05.680 A:middle L:90%
to start to be more instances of the of the

1499
01:25:05.689 --> 01:25:08.590 A:middle L:90%
people say Okay, well, we're going to forget

1500
01:25:08.590 --> 01:25:10.689 A:middle L:90%
to provide an alternative. We're going to stop.

1501
01:25:10.699 --> 01:25:13.199 A:middle L:90%
We're going to agree to stop publishing each other.

1502
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:16.420 A:middle L:90%
Journals. You had a question? Yeah. Didn't

1503
01:25:16.420 --> 01:25:21.350 A:middle L:90%
really have a question that I was just hearing multiple

1504
01:25:21.350 --> 01:25:28.710 A:middle L:90%
times that open access and the system which is in

1505
01:25:28.710 --> 01:25:31.170 A:middle L:90%
place right now are very comparable. And actually,

1506
01:25:31.170 --> 01:25:36.619 A:middle L:90%
it's all about overcharging. Um, but I think

1507
01:25:38.189 --> 01:25:42.630 A:middle L:90%
the very important part um, you shouldn't miss is

1508
01:25:42.630 --> 01:25:45.970 A:middle L:90%
that it's much easier in the system right now to

1509
01:25:45.979 --> 01:25:51.329 A:middle L:90%
overcharge because I thought it was like 2.5 million publications

1510
01:25:51.329 --> 01:25:57.130 A:middle L:90%
and 25 billion revenue or something like that. So

1511
01:25:57.130 --> 01:26:00.539 A:middle L:90%
that means for every publication you would have to charge

1512
01:26:00.539 --> 01:26:05.670 A:middle L:90%
10,000 bucks or more to actually achieve the same ballot

1513
01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:11.140 A:middle L:90%
like volume of money. And it's much easier to

1514
01:26:11.149 --> 01:26:14.880 A:middle L:90%
, um, to charge a little more. Uh

1515
01:26:14.890 --> 01:26:18.960 A:middle L:90%
, if it's like a a lot of people having

1516
01:26:18.970 --> 01:26:21.630 A:middle L:90%
having their subscription to a journal to say, Hey

1517
01:26:21.630 --> 01:26:24.770 A:middle L:90%
, you have to pay, like 500 bucks more

1518
01:26:24.779 --> 01:26:28.550 A:middle L:90%
. But like thousands and thousands, people are actually

1519
01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:31.949 A:middle L:90%
having having the subscription, then telling one person,

1520
01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:35.520 A:middle L:90%
Hey, you have to now pay the Piper Bucks

1521
01:26:35.520 --> 01:26:39.560 A:middle L:90%
. I charge 10,000 people. You have to pay

1522
01:26:39.560 --> 01:26:45.109 A:middle L:90%
that because if I multiply 5000 times my 100 bucks

1523
01:26:45.109 --> 01:26:48.109 A:middle L:90%
more or whatever, it's just a number a single

1524
01:26:48.109 --> 01:26:53.670 A:middle L:90%
person could not pay anymore. And so you cannot

1525
01:26:53.680 --> 01:26:59.720 A:middle L:90%
charge a single person as you could abroad abroad membership

1526
01:26:59.729 --> 01:27:01.689 A:middle L:90%
of subscribers. And that's essential difference. And because

1527
01:27:01.689 --> 01:27:05.819 A:middle L:90%
of that, you could never abuse the max system

1528
01:27:05.829 --> 01:27:09.029 A:middle L:90%
as you can. The system, which is in

1529
01:27:09.029 --> 01:27:11.909 A:middle L:90%
place right now. I remember one publisher I used

1530
01:27:11.909 --> 01:27:14.619 A:middle L:90%
to work for There was a journal was the subscription

1531
01:27:14.619 --> 01:27:15.960 A:middle L:90%
price was maybe 30,000 year or something, but it

1532
01:27:15.960 --> 01:27:19.279 A:middle L:90%
made a profit of something like 3.5 million the publisher

1533
01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:25.899 A:middle L:90%
, because they sold it so many times mhm going

1534
01:27:25.899 --> 01:27:28.109 A:middle L:90%
back to what I said. Is there a way

1535
01:27:28.109 --> 01:27:30.689 A:middle L:90%
that the back end and open access system, the

1536
01:27:30.699 --> 01:27:32.789 A:middle L:90%
back end data the you know, all of the

1537
01:27:32.789 --> 01:27:35.609 A:middle L:90%
information about the science itself and how it was done

1538
01:27:35.619 --> 01:27:38.460 A:middle L:90%
? People's ability to use that is that Is there

1539
01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:40.180 A:middle L:90%
a way that that could day the A. P

1540
01:27:40.180 --> 01:27:42.510 A:middle L:90%
. C. S? Because even the University Journal

1541
01:27:42.510 --> 01:27:44.579 A:middle L:90%
somebody's got to pay for or you've got to allocate

1542
01:27:44.590 --> 01:27:47.319 A:middle L:90%
resources are among the groups in the university. So

1543
01:27:47.329 --> 01:27:49.550 A:middle L:90%
in a sense, you you have always had the

1544
01:27:49.550 --> 01:27:55.369 A:middle L:90%
same resources issue gougers. But you have resourcing issues

1545
01:27:55.380 --> 01:27:59.149 A:middle L:90%
nonetheless. Is there a way I mean, alluded

1546
01:27:59.149 --> 01:28:01.100 A:middle L:90%
to something you've been thinking about tickets to this morning

1547
01:28:01.470 --> 01:28:03.180 A:middle L:90%
, Brian. Maybe it's too soon to talk about

1548
01:28:03.189 --> 01:28:06.899 A:middle L:90%
how the kind of network effects among the global users

1549
01:28:06.899 --> 01:28:11.970 A:middle L:90%
and how that may generate, uh, ways,

1550
01:28:11.979 --> 01:28:13.529 A:middle L:90%
you know, money. But I'm not. I

1551
01:28:13.539 --> 01:28:15.140 A:middle L:90%
don't want to have all the money. It is

1552
01:28:15.140 --> 01:28:17.529 A:middle L:90%
the reverse of the problem. This gentleman talked about

1553
01:28:17.539 --> 01:28:20.989 A:middle L:90%
where you have everybody paying a penny rather than the

1554
01:28:20.989 --> 01:28:24.239 A:middle L:90%
individual who wants to publish the article having to pay

1555
01:28:24.250 --> 01:28:27.100 A:middle L:90%
5000 if everybody in the world pays a Penny because

1556
01:28:27.100 --> 01:28:29.770 A:middle L:90%
they all have access to the data which I gathered

1557
01:28:29.770 --> 01:28:31.829 A:middle L:90%
currently under the close system, you've got to have

1558
01:28:31.829 --> 01:28:33.649 A:middle L:90%
a subscription to get the data, and they're not

1559
01:28:33.649 --> 01:28:36.920 A:middle L:90%
making innovative, maybe stale data. I mean,

1560
01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:40.100 A:middle L:90%
is there a way that that works? Mhm.

1561
01:28:40.470 --> 01:28:43.109 A:middle L:90%
It's the vacuum pace for the front end in this

1562
01:28:43.170 --> 01:28:48.600 A:middle L:90%
global users environment. I think that the subscription model

1563
01:28:49.069 --> 01:28:51.289 A:middle L:90%
, well, that's what they have now, obviously

1564
01:28:51.300 --> 01:28:55.270 A:middle L:90%
. But there there's a big there's ways that big

1565
01:28:55.279 --> 01:28:59.189 A:middle L:90%
data in other fields generates enough. Uh, you

1566
01:28:59.189 --> 01:29:01.789 A:middle L:90%
know, it could be subscription or tiered. Decide

1567
01:29:01.789 --> 01:29:06.300 A:middle L:90%
the pricing model. Everybody. We have a model

1568
01:29:06.300 --> 01:29:09.939 A:middle L:90%
we're looking at, which potentially could do that if

1569
01:29:09.939 --> 01:29:12.880 A:middle L:90%
it gets taken up to where grow open access and

1570
01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:14.590 A:middle L:90%
so all our content is free. But we're considering

1571
01:29:14.590 --> 01:29:17.590 A:middle L:90%
selling it to libraries, paradoxically, because libraries can't

1572
01:29:17.600 --> 01:29:20.399 A:middle L:90%
accession content into their collections and pay for it.

1573
01:29:20.970 --> 01:29:23.699 A:middle L:90%
So we're saying okay for a very small amount,

1574
01:29:23.710 --> 01:29:26.739 A:middle L:90%
will sell you a collection will give you mark records

1575
01:29:26.739 --> 01:29:29.050 A:middle L:90%
and special reports. You can measure its use,

1576
01:29:29.050 --> 01:29:31.579 A:middle L:90%
but if every library pays a very small amount collectively

1577
01:29:31.579 --> 01:29:33.069 A:middle L:90%
, that's quite a lot of money, which could

1578
01:29:33.079 --> 01:29:36.029 A:middle L:90%
then be a suspension for the article processing charges.

1579
01:29:36.029 --> 01:29:49.350 A:middle L:90%
Just create an out. I don't see. I

1580
01:29:49.359 --> 01:29:51.470 A:middle L:90%
might I might miss something, but I think I

1581
01:29:51.479 --> 01:29:59.819 A:middle L:90%
don't see where where the funding issue is before.

1582
01:29:59.829 --> 01:30:04.720 A:middle L:90%
Right now, the libraries have millions to to subscribe

1583
01:30:04.729 --> 01:30:10.699 A:middle L:90%
, and we have programs. Exactly. Exactly.

1584
01:30:10.710 --> 01:30:15.989 A:middle L:90%
And we have programs where students who have papers get

1585
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:19.329 A:middle L:90%
sponsored for publishing. So if you wouldn't have to

1586
01:30:19.329 --> 01:30:27.100 A:middle L:90%
subscribe to any of the big, big subscriptions anymore

1587
01:30:27.100 --> 01:30:30.569 A:middle L:90%
, you could use all that money to sponsor students

1588
01:30:30.569 --> 01:30:32.510 A:middle L:90%
. So I have to drop those journals pretty quickly

1589
01:30:32.520 --> 01:30:34.869 A:middle L:90%
. I don't see where, really The funding issue

1590
01:30:34.869 --> 01:30:41.050 A:middle L:90%
is because university allocate a lot for for students and

1591
01:30:41.050 --> 01:30:43.619 A:middle L:90%
not knowledge exchange. Right now, it's just for

1592
01:30:43.619 --> 01:30:45.550 A:middle L:90%
, like, buying all that. But it could

1593
01:30:45.550 --> 01:30:47.739 A:middle L:90%
also just be for Hey, I sponsored my students

1594
01:30:47.739 --> 01:30:51.449 A:middle L:90%
for publishing, um, so I don't see where

1595
01:30:51.449 --> 01:30:54.220 A:middle L:90%
that there any number of ways that the money could

1596
01:30:54.229 --> 01:30:57.300 A:middle L:90%
be redistributed. But who's gonna do the redistributing?

1597
01:30:57.310 --> 01:30:59.840 A:middle L:90%
I mean, there's the instance of archive. So

1598
01:30:59.850 --> 01:31:01.970 A:middle L:90%
I mentioned earlier archive pre print server is, But

1599
01:31:01.979 --> 01:31:04.789 A:middle L:90%
Cornell has been have been paying for that. And

1600
01:31:04.789 --> 01:31:08.829 A:middle L:90%
then they did an open call to institutions, saying

1601
01:31:09.060 --> 01:31:11.819 A:middle L:90%
, Would you consider contributing because you all benefit from

1602
01:31:11.819 --> 01:31:14.579 A:middle L:90%
this and a number of institutions said, Okay,

1603
01:31:14.579 --> 01:31:18.090 A:middle L:90%
well, will$1000 in our lab, you know

1604
01:31:18.100 --> 01:31:20.890 A:middle L:90%
,$5000 a year, so they were able to

1605
01:31:20.890 --> 01:31:25.829 A:middle L:90%
keep it going on that basis. But that kind

1606
01:31:25.829 --> 01:31:30.270 A:middle L:90%
of big sale approach to a scholarship, I don't

1607
01:31:30.270 --> 01:31:32.710 A:middle L:90%
see how that can be. Extend it out without

1608
01:31:32.710 --> 01:31:35.869 A:middle L:90%
some kind of coordination. High level coordination. You

1609
01:31:35.869 --> 01:31:42.159 A:middle L:90%
just You can't keep a that system going on that

1610
01:31:42.159 --> 01:31:45.029 A:middle L:90%
kind of sort of basis. I think on the

1611
01:31:45.029 --> 01:31:48.189 A:middle L:90%
screen, I think it has always been from this

1612
01:31:48.189 --> 01:31:51.380 A:middle L:90%
situation. Where do you copy the link of the

1613
01:31:51.380 --> 01:31:54.039 A:middle L:90%
paper that you want? And then you go to

1614
01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:56.640 A:middle L:90%
your library and you cannot access because your library is

1615
01:31:56.640 --> 01:31:59.250 A:middle L:90%
not subscribing to the I think the field comes from

1616
01:31:59.250 --> 01:32:01.260 A:middle L:90%
this maybe one year or more number of years when

1617
01:32:01.260 --> 01:32:04.689 A:middle L:90%
we decided not to pay these subscriptions until we moved

1618
01:32:04.699 --> 01:32:08.989 A:middle L:90%
to the dolphin access thing. And I've heard this

1619
01:32:08.989 --> 01:32:12.319 A:middle L:90%
a lot from many people here in conversation that you

1620
01:32:12.319 --> 01:32:15.359 A:middle L:90%
cannot handle. I'm talking back about this luxury of

1621
01:32:15.369 --> 01:32:16.920 A:middle L:90%
having of how easy it is to copy the link

1622
01:32:16.920 --> 01:32:19.130 A:middle L:90%
that you want to access where I come from.

1623
01:32:19.130 --> 01:32:21.949 A:middle L:90%
My country Actually, it was actually very hard to

1624
01:32:21.960 --> 01:32:25.149 A:middle L:90%
get access to this article. So you can You

1625
01:32:25.149 --> 01:32:26.779 A:middle L:90%
may not think only about what we have here,

1626
01:32:26.779 --> 01:32:30.310 A:middle L:90%
because your your research can be can be used and

1627
01:32:30.310 --> 01:32:32.109 A:middle L:90%
cited and implemented in many different ways in some other

1628
01:32:32.109 --> 01:32:34.239 A:middle L:90%
countries and places that don't have access to the throne

1629
01:32:34.239 --> 01:32:38.380 A:middle L:90%
. Us. So talking about incentives, maybe some

1630
01:32:38.390 --> 01:32:42.920 A:middle L:90%
incentives that we cannot actually find we don't see here

1631
01:32:42.930 --> 01:32:45.060 A:middle L:90%
. But it's very important for some other people who

1632
01:32:45.060 --> 01:32:46.479 A:middle L:90%
are letting some other place that is very important for

1633
01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:48.829 A:middle L:90%
them. And you can think about it like if

1634
01:32:48.829 --> 01:32:53.350 A:middle L:90%
you're having your Facebook post as like friends only versus

1635
01:32:53.359 --> 01:32:55.250 A:middle L:90%
public. And you can count how many lights you

1636
01:32:55.250 --> 01:32:57.739 A:middle L:90%
can get because your face, you're supposed to see

1637
01:32:57.750 --> 01:33:00.289 A:middle L:90%
my brother like that. So this can just be

1638
01:33:00.289 --> 01:33:03.760 A:middle L:90%
an example. Uh, we have some, uh

1639
01:33:04.149 --> 01:33:06.699 A:middle L:90%
, we have been spoiled. How easy we can

1640
01:33:06.699 --> 01:33:10.279 A:middle L:90%
access the articles and research in general. But if

1641
01:33:10.279 --> 01:33:13.319 A:middle L:90%
we think about some people who don't have this luxury

1642
01:33:13.329 --> 01:33:15.789 A:middle L:90%
, uh, it will be on itself. It

1643
01:33:15.789 --> 01:33:18.649 A:middle L:90%
would be a UN incentive and without without any incentive

1644
01:33:18.649 --> 01:33:21.350 A:middle L:90%
, I keep thinking about if a researcher doesn't believe

1645
01:33:21.350 --> 01:33:26.760 A:middle L:90%
that the mission of research is to be disseminated for

1646
01:33:26.760 --> 01:33:29.020 A:middle L:90%
free. So we have an issue that we need

1647
01:33:29.020 --> 01:33:30.760 A:middle L:90%
to talk about. I mean, usually the open

1648
01:33:30.760 --> 01:33:34.050 A:middle L:90%
access discussions go into the funding models and money issues

1649
01:33:34.060 --> 01:33:38.600 A:middle L:90%
, which keeps us away from from the real issue

1650
01:33:38.609 --> 01:33:41.739 A:middle L:90%
. Because if researchers, grad students and faculty,

1651
01:33:41.739 --> 01:33:44.970 A:middle L:90%
you don't believe that this is what research is here

1652
01:33:45.449 --> 01:33:46.770 A:middle L:90%
. Four. So we'll keep talking about money,

1653
01:33:46.770 --> 01:33:49.229 A:middle L:90%
but we are. We are avoiding the main problem

1654
01:33:49.239 --> 01:33:53.850 A:middle L:90%
that should be discussed. So this can be a

1655
01:33:53.850 --> 01:33:56.979 A:middle L:90%
question, maybe more for the dean and faculty members

1656
01:33:58.149 --> 01:34:00.670 A:middle L:90%
on the channel and with us as an aspiring faculty

1657
01:34:00.670 --> 01:34:02.760 A:middle L:90%
member myself. So he wants to go back.

1658
01:34:04.039 --> 01:34:08.319 A:middle L:90%
Can this be something that you bring up in your

1659
01:34:08.329 --> 01:34:11.000 A:middle L:90%
interviews, something that you bring up in your team

1660
01:34:11.000 --> 01:34:14.630 A:middle L:90%
? P dossier? Something that you say, You

1661
01:34:14.630 --> 01:34:17.500 A:middle L:90%
know, it may appear that my publications are of

1662
01:34:17.510 --> 01:34:21.229 A:middle L:90%
Lower Caliber or X y and Z four, our

1663
01:34:21.239 --> 01:34:26.210 A:middle L:90%
field field specific. You know, the best journals

1664
01:34:26.210 --> 01:34:28.960 A:middle L:90%
are X, Y and Z. These closed access

1665
01:34:28.960 --> 01:34:31.189 A:middle L:90%
whatever. But I have a mission, and I

1666
01:34:31.189 --> 01:34:34.550 A:middle L:90%
have I'm of this philosophy, and so if you

1667
01:34:34.550 --> 01:34:39.819 A:middle L:90%
feel that my papers may are all of you know

1668
01:34:39.829 --> 01:34:41.880 A:middle L:90%
you'll see the theme. They're all in this open

1669
01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:45.420 A:middle L:90%
access journals category. But if you feel that they

1670
01:34:45.430 --> 01:34:49.239 A:middle L:90%
may be inferior, bring them yourself. You can

1671
01:34:49.250 --> 01:34:53.770 A:middle L:90%
you Can you say that having served on committees may

1672
01:34:53.770 --> 01:34:57.529 A:middle L:90%
be yourselves? Would you feel that that would?

1673
01:34:57.539 --> 01:34:59.000 A:middle L:90%
Because, I mean, this is something that's a

1674
01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:00.100 A:middle L:90%
real concern. You know, The reason why I

1675
01:35:00.100 --> 01:35:01.689 A:middle L:90%
asked The question is not because I'm like, you

1676
01:35:01.689 --> 01:35:03.729 A:middle L:90%
know, you know, care all that. But

1677
01:35:03.729 --> 01:35:05.569 A:middle L:90%
this is you have to fight, you know,

1678
01:35:05.579 --> 01:35:08.510 A:middle L:90%
philosophically. And we talk about this all the time

1679
01:35:08.520 --> 01:35:11.529 A:middle L:90%
being an advocate, you know, having a philosophy

1680
01:35:11.539 --> 01:35:15.869 A:middle L:90%
versus the reality of the system and being an academic

1681
01:35:15.439 --> 01:35:17.899 A:middle L:90%
, you know, you have these core beliefs as

1682
01:35:17.909 --> 01:35:21.010 A:middle L:90%
a mentor and as an academic and as a scientist

1683
01:35:21.010 --> 01:35:24.829 A:middle L:90%
and philosopher, and then what the reality is,

1684
01:35:24.829 --> 01:35:27.329 A:middle L:90%
which is you need to get a job to put

1685
01:35:27.340 --> 01:35:29.449 A:middle L:90%
food on the table. You have money in your

1686
01:35:29.460 --> 01:35:30.500 A:middle L:90%
bank account. And if you don't get tenure,

1687
01:35:30.500 --> 01:35:35.039 A:middle L:90%
if you don't get hired, um, then you

1688
01:35:35.039 --> 01:35:38.829 A:middle L:90%
simply can't achieve these goals. And so this is

1689
01:35:38.829 --> 01:35:43.869 A:middle L:90%
the question. Would you be so negative that negatively

1690
01:35:45.300 --> 01:35:46.500 A:middle L:90%
? Okay, So Well, While people that are

1691
01:35:46.510 --> 01:35:50.399 A:middle L:90%
faculty and others who were qualified to answer this.

1692
01:35:50.399 --> 01:35:55.770 A:middle L:90%
Can I throw something else out? Alternatively, what

1693
01:35:57.640 --> 01:36:01.020 A:middle L:90%
wouldn't it be cool if people who are writing really

1694
01:36:01.029 --> 01:36:06.890 A:middle L:90%
fabulous research papers got accepted in the journals and then

1695
01:36:06.890 --> 01:36:10.760 A:middle L:90%
said, You know, sort of in a viral

1696
01:36:10.760 --> 01:36:15.760 A:middle L:90%
campaign My behavior was accepted, and I chose not

1697
01:36:15.770 --> 01:36:18.779 A:middle L:90%
to publish with severe whoever because I'm going to open

1698
01:36:18.779 --> 01:36:21.739 A:middle L:90%
access to what you're saying is I hit the bar

1699
01:36:23.329 --> 01:36:27.970 A:middle L:90%
. I have that problem. I have the email

1700
01:36:30.829 --> 01:36:33.069 A:middle L:90%
on your Facebook and then and then say, But

1701
01:36:33.079 --> 01:36:35.789 A:middle L:90%
I'm going to open access. And then and then

1702
01:36:36.050 --> 01:36:42.090 A:middle L:90%
and then that started to she grew up. The

1703
01:36:42.100 --> 01:36:44.739 A:middle L:90%
problem, though, is those are individual battles.

1704
01:36:45.229 --> 01:36:46.529 A:middle L:90%
The thing is, if you and I acknowledge there's

1705
01:36:46.529 --> 01:36:49.550 A:middle L:90%
a problem. If university leadership acknowledges there is a

1706
01:36:49.560 --> 01:36:55.850 A:middle L:90%
problem in every institution, only then can those discussions

1707
01:36:55.850 --> 01:37:00.279 A:middle L:90%
be welcomed in those interviews. If the powers that

1708
01:37:00.289 --> 01:37:03.140 A:middle L:90%
be do not see any problem with the problem,

1709
01:37:03.829 --> 01:37:08.909 A:middle L:90%
nothing's gonna change. So I mean, I think

1710
01:37:08.920 --> 01:37:10.930 A:middle L:90%
all of us need to have that attitude to it

1711
01:37:10.939 --> 01:37:13.220 A:middle L:90%
research, and then, uh, develop a more

1712
01:37:13.220 --> 01:37:16.149 A:middle L:90%
holistic profile when we go into these interviews of how

1713
01:37:16.159 --> 01:37:19.479 A:middle L:90%
our article or work had an actual impact and was

1714
01:37:19.479 --> 01:37:24.350 A:middle L:90%
not just in a high impact factor journal. Um

1715
01:37:24.829 --> 01:37:28.550 A:middle L:90%
, unless the people at the top acknowledge the problem

1716
01:37:29.229 --> 01:37:30.029 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, the young folk would not be able

1717
01:37:30.029 --> 01:37:32.520 A:middle L:90%
to get in and justify a lot of these open

1718
01:37:32.520 --> 01:37:38.149 A:middle L:90%
access and open endeavors being a question back here.

1719
01:37:39.829 --> 01:37:45.760 A:middle L:90%
Uh huh. Well backwards. Um, so I

1720
01:37:45.760 --> 01:37:47.579 A:middle L:90%
know when you submit a paper, you have to

1721
01:37:47.590 --> 01:37:49.630 A:middle L:90%
do a statement like this. Work has not been

1722
01:37:49.630 --> 01:37:53.829 A:middle L:90%
publishing another journal. Or you're not thinking about publishing

1723
01:37:53.829 --> 01:37:56.050 A:middle L:90%
somewhere else. Doesn't that journal? If they step

1724
01:37:56.050 --> 01:37:59.489 A:middle L:90%
your paper, have the right to publish it after

1725
01:37:59.489 --> 01:38:02.039 A:middle L:90%
that, or you can retract. So they've already

1726
01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:05.159 A:middle L:90%
spent the time sending it out for peer reviewed and

1727
01:38:05.170 --> 01:38:10.539 A:middle L:90%
editor overview. Can you? Well, there's an

1728
01:38:10.550 --> 01:38:13.100 A:middle L:90%
it's more of an ethical issue that you haven't signed

1729
01:38:13.100 --> 01:38:15.369 A:middle L:90%
any contract, so you only sign the contract when

1730
01:38:15.369 --> 01:38:18.140 A:middle L:90%
your paper is accepted and you agree to publish,

1731
01:38:18.140 --> 01:38:20.819 A:middle L:90%
That's the contract. So you could in theory do

1732
01:38:20.819 --> 01:38:26.180 A:middle L:90%
that. But I feel like it's important you get

1733
01:38:26.579 --> 01:38:30.909 A:middle L:90%
your paper. And what if the somebody on the

1734
01:38:30.909 --> 01:38:32.390 A:middle L:90%
board or somebody that was that's on the board of

1735
01:38:32.390 --> 01:38:35.149 A:middle L:90%
the journal says Okay, well, that person work

1736
01:38:35.149 --> 01:38:38.350 A:middle L:90%
out, make sure that they don't do the job

1737
01:38:38.720 --> 01:38:40.670 A:middle L:90%
, that's possible. But you can imagine the kind

1738
01:38:40.670 --> 01:38:44.029 A:middle L:90%
of blackballing that might go on that this will happen

1739
01:38:44.029 --> 01:38:46.079 A:middle L:90%
with the language example. 100 people withdrew their articles

1740
01:38:46.199 --> 01:38:48.149 A:middle L:90%
, but they were doing it on Mass and they

1741
01:38:48.619 --> 01:38:53.800 A:middle L:90%
as a community. Can I say something back to

1742
01:38:53.810 --> 01:38:55.850 A:middle L:90%
the question of, uh, interviews and what it

1743
01:38:55.850 --> 01:38:59.869 A:middle L:90%
should be said? Uh, so that's that's why

1744
01:38:59.880 --> 01:39:01.119 A:middle L:90%
instead of using the impact factor of the journals,

1745
01:39:01.130 --> 01:39:03.470 A:middle L:90%
you need to go to these interviews prepared with some

1746
01:39:03.470 --> 01:39:06.420 A:middle L:90%
other metrics, trying to make it more scientific.

1747
01:39:06.420 --> 01:39:10.590 A:middle L:90%
So we have for most of them the open access

1748
01:39:10.590 --> 01:39:12.380 A:middle L:90%
journals. They have this tool that can get you

1749
01:39:12.380 --> 01:39:15.520 A:middle L:90%
to know how many people actually saw your article,

1750
01:39:15.520 --> 01:39:16.920 A:middle L:90%
how many people not only cited, but how long

1751
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:19.380 A:middle L:90%
they even spent training your article, how many people

1752
01:39:19.390 --> 01:39:23.479 A:middle L:90%
download the article, and even from from which areas

1753
01:39:23.479 --> 01:39:25.569 A:middle L:90%
of the world. So you can know that which

1754
01:39:25.569 --> 01:39:28.350 A:middle L:90%
areas are more impacted with your research. So going

1755
01:39:28.350 --> 01:39:30.310 A:middle L:90%
to interviews not only saying that this is a good

1756
01:39:30.310 --> 01:39:31.409 A:middle L:90%
journal and I'm doing good research, but these are

1757
01:39:31.409 --> 01:39:33.949 A:middle L:90%
some metrics and they're actually evolving. There have been

1758
01:39:33.960 --> 01:39:39.010 A:middle L:90%
many conversations about the metrics on how good your research

1759
01:39:39.020 --> 01:39:41.460 A:middle L:90%
as versus just using an impact factor. And,

1760
01:39:41.470 --> 01:39:45.060 A:middle L:90%
uh, and that's how you are well prepared for

1761
01:39:45.060 --> 01:39:46.420 A:middle L:90%
this kind of questions. That's what I think.

1762
01:39:46.430 --> 01:39:49.590 A:middle L:90%
I believe that some people are doing actually doing this

1763
01:39:49.590 --> 01:39:51.609 A:middle L:90%
in their interviews as a great students, and they're

1764
01:39:51.619 --> 01:39:54.569 A:middle L:90%
applying for jobs. So they are trying to make

1765
01:39:54.579 --> 01:39:57.340 A:middle L:90%
clear in their city that this publication, you can

1766
01:39:57.340 --> 01:39:59.840 A:middle L:90%
click this link and get more information about how it's

1767
01:39:59.840 --> 01:40:01.060 A:middle L:90%
used and how it's being, uh, cited and

1768
01:40:01.060 --> 01:40:04.699 A:middle L:90%
downloaded. So you can add an example from when

1769
01:40:04.699 --> 01:40:08.880 A:middle L:90%
I was, uh, book publishing. I published

1770
01:40:08.880 --> 01:40:15.100 A:middle L:90%
a book by an anthropologist who published his article in

1771
01:40:15.109 --> 01:40:18.090 A:middle L:90%
one of the American Anthropological Association journals they have.

1772
01:40:18.100 --> 01:40:21.149 A:middle L:90%
This one hasn't gone open access yet, but the

1773
01:40:21.159 --> 01:40:27.739 A:middle L:90%
Triple A had on their website statistics on how often

1774
01:40:27.750 --> 01:40:30.199 A:middle L:90%
these articles were downloaded and one of the articles that

1775
01:40:30.210 --> 01:40:33.020 A:middle L:90%
he published that was the basis of the book and

1776
01:40:33.020 --> 01:40:38.920 A:middle L:90%
then the most downloaded article in 2010 or whatever year

1777
01:40:38.920 --> 01:40:41.800 A:middle L:90%
it was. And as a publisher, that was

1778
01:40:41.810 --> 01:40:44.840 A:middle L:90%
like he's got a built in audience for this,

1779
01:40:44.840 --> 01:40:47.210 A:middle L:90%
and it certainly made an impact on me and the

1780
01:40:47.220 --> 01:40:50.130 A:middle L:90%
decision to review that manuscript kind about publishing the book

1781
01:40:50.130 --> 01:40:54.460 A:middle L:90%
and then end up being a successful book so that

1782
01:40:54.470 --> 01:40:57.420 A:middle L:90%
as we build these kind of the metrics that they're

1783
01:40:57.420 --> 01:41:00.100 A:middle L:90%
going to be a more and more important part of

1784
01:41:00.109 --> 01:41:03.399 A:middle L:90%
the decision making process, I give you my point

1785
01:41:03.399 --> 01:41:06.399 A:middle L:90%
of view. I think you can say that.

1786
01:41:06.409 --> 01:41:09.449 A:middle L:90%
But whether you get 10 year after that or not

1787
01:41:09.460 --> 01:41:11.949 A:middle L:90%
, that's a different story. When I was your

1788
01:41:11.949 --> 01:41:15.909 A:middle L:90%
job to continue. So when I was going through

1789
01:41:15.909 --> 01:41:18.229 A:middle L:90%
tenure, we have, uh, annual reviews.

1790
01:41:18.789 --> 01:41:23.520 A:middle L:90%
And every time I get, you know, comments

1791
01:41:23.520 --> 01:41:25.899 A:middle L:90%
back saying that you should be publishing in that journal

1792
01:41:25.899 --> 01:41:28.590 A:middle L:90%
, not in this journal. And I would say

1793
01:41:28.590 --> 01:41:30.390 A:middle L:90%
, But my research is actually in this area,

1794
01:41:30.390 --> 01:41:33.720 A:middle L:90%
not in that area, but so that goes on

1795
01:41:34.409 --> 01:41:36.159 A:middle L:90%
. I think at the end of the day,

1796
01:41:36.159 --> 01:41:39.789 A:middle L:90%
it's a matter of portfolio. And is this the

1797
01:41:39.789 --> 01:41:41.989 A:middle L:90%
same group of people that would be reviewing you for

1798
01:41:41.989 --> 01:41:44.039 A:middle L:90%
tenure? Yeah, that's the same. Yeah,

1799
01:41:44.609 --> 01:41:45.520 A:middle L:90%
uh, it's a matter of portfolio, and you

1800
01:41:45.529 --> 01:41:49.380 A:middle L:90%
you should have a balanced portfolio just like everything else

1801
01:41:49.390 --> 01:41:55.180 A:middle L:90%
. All the metrics is great, but I have

1802
01:41:55.180 --> 01:41:57.829 A:middle L:90%
a paper that has over 100 citations, and that

1803
01:41:57.829 --> 01:41:59.539 A:middle L:90%
is nothing you know, if you look at the

1804
01:42:00.000 --> 01:42:01.909 A:middle L:90%
our vice president for research, for example, she

1805
01:42:01.909 --> 01:42:04.819 A:middle L:90%
has paper that has, like, 1000 citations.

1806
01:42:05.600 --> 01:42:09.180 A:middle L:90%
But when I looked at what metrics I found only

1807
01:42:09.180 --> 01:42:11.949 A:middle L:90%
one guy to eating about one of my neighbors one

1808
01:42:11.949 --> 01:42:14.909 A:middle L:90%
time if I was counting on that for 10 years

1809
01:42:15.100 --> 01:42:17.029 A:middle L:90%
. But is it a bad thing now? It's

1810
01:42:17.029 --> 01:42:20.229 A:middle L:90%
a good thing. So you got to balance your

1811
01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:24.100 A:middle L:90%
your portfolio when you when you're trying to get a

1812
01:42:24.100 --> 01:42:28.109 A:middle L:90%
job to go. And that's the reality department.

1813
01:42:28.800 --> 01:42:32.300 A:middle L:90%
Um, I can answer your questions another time,

1814
01:42:32.310 --> 01:42:36.529 A:middle L:90%
but what I am sitting here thinking is that it

1815
01:42:36.529 --> 01:42:41.539 A:middle L:90%
is in order to make change, the system has

1816
01:42:41.539 --> 01:42:45.079 A:middle L:90%
to change and the individuals have to, so you

1817
01:42:45.079 --> 01:42:47.220 A:middle L:90%
have to do it and the system has to change

1818
01:42:48.300 --> 01:42:51.300 A:middle L:90%
, and that's the way we will affect change.

1819
01:42:51.310 --> 01:42:55.319 A:middle L:90%
And so it's not. And I know it's scarier

1820
01:42:55.329 --> 01:42:58.909 A:middle L:90%
for an individual to stand up. I get that

1821
01:42:59.500 --> 01:43:01.989 A:middle L:90%
I basically have based my life on on that standing

1822
01:43:01.989 --> 01:43:05.439 A:middle L:90%
up, Uh, but then the system has to

1823
01:43:05.449 --> 01:43:09.340 A:middle L:90%
change, so we have to be brave on all

1824
01:43:09.340 --> 01:43:13.189 A:middle L:90%
of those fronts. And so it's not just the

1825
01:43:13.199 --> 01:43:15.300 A:middle L:90%
new folks. The younger ones coming in. It's

1826
01:43:15.300 --> 01:43:16.670 A:middle L:90%
the those of us who have been around who have

1827
01:43:16.670 --> 01:43:20.090 A:middle L:90%
to be willing to go out and they change textbooks

1828
01:43:20.210 --> 01:43:23.510 A:middle L:90%
and we can do it. So I have a

1829
01:43:23.520 --> 01:43:26.039 A:middle L:90%
question. I'm a little disheartening listening all these things

1830
01:43:26.050 --> 01:43:29.359 A:middle L:90%
like Dinosaur, and that's never going to change.

1831
01:43:29.369 --> 01:43:33.260 A:middle L:90%
And everybody has to change. To retire. We

1832
01:43:33.260 --> 01:43:39.050 A:middle L:90%
still have to retire. So aside from as a

1833
01:43:39.060 --> 01:43:42.859 A:middle L:90%
graduate student publishing an open access journals, what are

1834
01:43:42.859 --> 01:43:45.130 A:middle L:90%
some concrete, actionable items that we can take away

1835
01:43:45.130 --> 01:43:46.960 A:middle L:90%
tonight to be like Maybe we can help us report

1836
01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:53.729 A:middle L:90%
labor, But that looks like educating faculty, letting

1837
01:43:53.729 --> 01:43:55.739 A:middle L:90%
them know What does it mean to publish an open

1838
01:43:55.739 --> 01:43:58.699 A:middle L:90%
that situation? Well, I just wonder what what

1839
01:43:58.699 --> 01:44:00.739 A:middle L:90%
are the things we can do here. At an

1840
01:44:00.739 --> 01:44:05.069 A:middle L:90%
intense, higher institutional of other things is the question

1841
01:44:05.069 --> 01:44:12.640 A:middle L:90%
of and open access policy can that be approached even

1842
01:44:12.640 --> 01:44:15.460 A:middle L:90%
if there's an opt out for special cases? Could

1843
01:44:15.460 --> 01:44:18.460 A:middle L:90%
we? Is that something we could push? The

1844
01:44:18.460 --> 01:44:23.399 A:middle L:90%
other thing is, we've got I've mentioned, you

1845
01:44:23.399 --> 01:44:26.810 A:middle L:90%
know, in my comments earlier, beyond boundaries,

1846
01:44:28.489 --> 01:44:32.279 A:middle L:90%
are they thinking about open access issues that these ethical

1847
01:44:32.289 --> 01:44:36.260 A:middle L:90%
issues in those, um, how they're conceived,

1848
01:44:36.260 --> 01:44:40.920 A:middle L:90%
they have how the Beyond Boundaries initiative is being conceived

1849
01:44:41.390 --> 01:44:45.229 A:middle L:90%
. If it isn't baked into the to the you

1850
01:44:45.229 --> 01:44:47.369 A:middle L:90%
know the whole approach from the beginning, it's hard

1851
01:44:47.369 --> 01:44:49.409 A:middle L:90%
to think that it's going to get added on later

1852
01:44:49.789 --> 01:44:53.560 A:middle L:90%
. Are there ways to to start that conversation?

1853
01:44:53.560 --> 01:44:56.579 A:middle L:90%
I guess so. Here at this institution can we

1854
01:44:56.859 --> 01:45:00.250 A:middle L:90%
can we actually begin initiatives that will that will change

1855
01:45:00.250 --> 01:45:05.430 A:middle L:90%
the conversation So I can I can say that from

1856
01:45:05.430 --> 01:45:09.170 A:middle L:90%
the system point of view, I don't believe in

1857
01:45:09.180 --> 01:45:14.310 A:middle L:90%
adding constraints to improve the system performance. I think

1858
01:45:14.890 --> 01:45:16.090 A:middle L:90%
, uh, you know, constraints are never gonna

1859
01:45:16.100 --> 01:45:19.949 A:middle L:90%
make things more optimistic than just constraints. But if

1860
01:45:19.949 --> 01:45:23.970 A:middle L:90%
you have add on values, that would be the

1861
01:45:23.970 --> 01:45:27.210 A:middle L:90%
way to go. I think when I heard from

1862
01:45:27.220 --> 01:45:30.220 A:middle L:90%
Philip the first time that there are some systems that

1863
01:45:30.229 --> 01:45:33.890 A:middle L:90%
the library has to you know, Putin maybe draft

1864
01:45:33.899 --> 01:45:39.039 A:middle L:90%
versions of our manuscript so that people can have access

1865
01:45:39.039 --> 01:45:41.550 A:middle L:90%
to that was very excited and I wanted to know

1866
01:45:41.550 --> 01:45:44.310 A:middle L:90%
more about that and and do more of that.

1867
01:45:44.789 --> 01:45:46.939 A:middle L:90%
So I think having this kind of adult values that

1868
01:45:46.939 --> 01:45:53.689 A:middle L:90%
faculty can can use to publish their work or make

1869
01:45:53.689 --> 01:45:57.409 A:middle L:90%
it more available, they will opt in automatically without

1870
01:45:57.890 --> 01:46:00.470 A:middle L:90%
, but not by forcing them, not by making

1871
01:46:00.470 --> 01:46:04.140 A:middle L:90%
it and institutions, even though other institutions have done

1872
01:46:06.279 --> 01:46:10.869 A:middle L:90%
. I think it will just be some added pressure

1873
01:46:10.880 --> 01:46:13.899 A:middle L:90%
to a group of folks who already are pressure.

1874
01:46:14.880 --> 01:46:16.569 A:middle L:90%
I don't I don't know if anything good is going

1875
01:46:16.569 --> 01:46:19.170 A:middle L:90%
to come out of the University of Lee. Asian

1876
01:46:19.180 --> 01:46:23.189 A:middle L:90%
Belgium is the most extreme one where they say they

1877
01:46:23.189 --> 01:46:27.420 A:middle L:90%
won't even look at any publication for your promotion discussions

1878
01:46:27.430 --> 01:46:30.689 A:middle L:90%
unless it's with access, for example, so that

1879
01:46:30.689 --> 01:46:32.699 A:middle L:90%
they've gone that far and they have something like 95%

1880
01:46:32.699 --> 01:46:36.329 A:middle L:90%
compliance. The question of whether you want to do

1881
01:46:36.329 --> 01:46:42.869 A:middle L:90%
that, the policy as something that the faculty would

1882
01:46:42.869 --> 01:46:46.800 A:middle L:90%
say, We want this not imposed on the faculty

1883
01:46:46.800 --> 01:46:49.159 A:middle L:90%
. I don't think that's good, But having the

1884
01:46:49.170 --> 01:46:53.210 A:middle L:90%
faculty sick, Yeah, we need to make some

1885
01:46:53.220 --> 01:46:55.829 A:middle L:90%
changes, and this is how this is. These

1886
01:46:55.829 --> 01:46:58.680 A:middle L:90%
are the rules by which we want to govern ourselves

1887
01:46:58.689 --> 01:47:01.560 A:middle L:90%
. You always have to centers, but I don't

1888
01:47:01.569 --> 01:47:05.949 A:middle L:90%
think having an externally imposed policies helpful. I wanted

1889
01:47:05.949 --> 01:47:12.279 A:middle L:90%
to also stay the in answer to your question finding

1890
01:47:12.279 --> 01:47:15.390 A:middle L:90%
out what journals are published here, who's on the

1891
01:47:15.390 --> 01:47:18.460 A:middle L:90%
editorial boards? Do they know that these are issues

1892
01:47:18.470 --> 01:47:23.199 A:middle L:90%
. Can they? Are they willing to engage with

1893
01:47:23.210 --> 01:47:26.500 A:middle L:90%
the rest of their boards, too? Talk about

1894
01:47:26.880 --> 01:47:30.109 A:middle L:90%
their options and what the impact of their decisions is

1895
01:47:30.109 --> 01:47:34.210 A:middle L:90%
right now and to look at some smaller options.

1896
01:47:35.380 --> 01:47:38.779 A:middle L:90%
I'd love to see you because I think there's a

1897
01:47:38.779 --> 01:47:41.920 A:middle L:90%
lot of we have top notch people, as you

1898
01:47:41.920 --> 01:47:45.550 A:middle L:90%
mentioned in in engineering and elsewhere, and we obviously

1899
01:47:45.560 --> 01:47:50.600 A:middle L:90%
have some journals being run out of lots of editorial

1900
01:47:50.600 --> 01:47:56.449 A:middle L:90%
board members. And let's talk to and I think

1901
01:47:56.449 --> 01:48:00.579 A:middle L:90%
it's really important going back to your question to Mohammed

1902
01:48:00.590 --> 01:48:03.850 A:middle L:90%
said, Educate the faculty is what he said.

1903
01:48:03.859 --> 01:48:09.100 A:middle L:90%
I would, um, add to that educate ourselves

1904
01:48:09.109 --> 01:48:13.510 A:middle L:90%
to really understand what open access is, Um,

1905
01:48:13.520 --> 01:48:16.250 A:middle L:90%
and something that I haven't seen recently or what,

1906
01:48:16.260 --> 01:48:20.130 A:middle L:90%
uh, dispelling the myths of open access because we

1907
01:48:20.130 --> 01:48:26.189 A:middle L:90%
have a lot of misconceptions. You say open access

1908
01:48:26.189 --> 01:48:29.770 A:middle L:90%
immediately. People think not quality. And so I

1909
01:48:29.770 --> 01:48:32.500 A:middle L:90%
think if we were to and maybe we can do

1910
01:48:32.500 --> 01:48:35.060 A:middle L:90%
this more in class or in a blog or something

1911
01:48:35.060 --> 01:48:38.109 A:middle L:90%
. But talk about what are those myths getting the

1912
01:48:38.109 --> 01:48:45.010 A:middle L:90%
truth of open access out and debunking those and beginning

1913
01:48:45.010 --> 01:48:48.119 A:middle L:90%
the conversation. That's where I think it starts and

1914
01:48:48.119 --> 01:48:50.600 A:middle L:90%
then we take on. We're not going to change

1915
01:48:50.600 --> 01:48:55.479 A:middle L:90%
genuine promotion tomorrow as much as I would have liked

1916
01:48:55.479 --> 01:48:58.300 A:middle L:90%
it yesterday. But I think it is starting with

1917
01:48:58.310 --> 01:49:02.250 A:middle L:90%
debunking the myths. Is there something on the myths

1918
01:49:02.260 --> 01:49:04.939 A:middle L:90%
of open access? Yeah, there's quite a lot

1919
01:49:04.939 --> 01:49:08.369 A:middle L:90%
of resources. Yeah, then we need to get

1920
01:49:08.369 --> 01:49:11.220 A:middle L:90%
that out and start with that conversation and some of

1921
01:49:11.220 --> 01:49:15.939 A:middle L:90%
the videos. The PhD comic one I thought was

1922
01:49:15.949 --> 01:49:19.100 A:middle L:90%
excellent. And that should be broadcast. Why so

1923
01:49:19.569 --> 01:49:21.649 A:middle L:90%
, yeah, I will try to come up with

1924
01:49:21.649 --> 01:49:26.630 A:middle L:90%
something on the myths later, and I'll circulate it

1925
01:49:26.630 --> 01:49:29.880 A:middle L:90%
so that you have for the class. Well,

1926
01:49:29.880 --> 01:49:31.090 A:middle L:90%
on that note, I think unless there any,

1927
01:49:32.270 --> 01:49:35.000 A:middle L:90%
um, specific questions, I think, Well,

1928
01:49:35.229 --> 01:49:38.949 A:middle L:90%
it's just that question because we usually talk about the

1929
01:49:38.949 --> 01:49:41.520 A:middle L:90%
rule of grad students in talking to faculty and stuff

1930
01:49:41.529 --> 01:49:45.439 A:middle L:90%
. So is there any of you had the advisor

1931
01:49:45.439 --> 01:49:48.020 A:middle L:90%
or remember asking you to publish a journal, or

1932
01:49:48.029 --> 01:49:50.920 A:middle L:90%
does it always go from the way the other way

1933
01:49:50.930 --> 01:49:54.180 A:middle L:90%
? Is it all of the grad student talking to

1934
01:49:54.180 --> 01:49:56.739 A:middle L:90%
the faculty about open access? Is there any situation

1935
01:49:56.739 --> 01:50:00.369 A:middle L:90%
where your advisor or your a mentor asks you to

1936
01:50:00.760 --> 01:50:06.430 A:middle L:90%
consider open access Journal for publishing the work. Okay

1937
01:50:06.439 --> 01:50:11.000 A:middle L:90%
, you have questions. See, Muhammad, you

1938
01:50:11.069 --> 01:50:14.210 A:middle L:90%
will work with you. So just just a cheap

1939
01:50:14.210 --> 01:50:15.569 A:middle L:90%
plug for some stuff that we have been doing.

1940
01:50:15.579 --> 01:50:18.750 A:middle L:90%
The idea of open access again, not necessarily in

1941
01:50:18.750 --> 01:50:24.449 A:middle L:90%
contradiction with applications and whether it's in the standard way

1942
01:50:24.449 --> 01:50:26.590 A:middle L:90%
or the new way. You know, we have

1943
01:50:26.590 --> 01:50:30.979 A:middle L:90%
been developing games that help people learn subjects and transportation

1944
01:50:31.359 --> 01:50:33.699 A:middle L:90%
, and we know we make those free on our

1945
01:50:33.699 --> 01:50:38.710 A:middle L:90%
website for anyone to download and play with them.

1946
01:50:38.710 --> 01:50:41.100 A:middle L:90%
And it's not even a matter of publishing them,

1947
01:50:41.159 --> 01:50:43.829 A:middle L:90%
publishing them. So they are. They're so faculty

1948
01:50:43.829 --> 01:50:48.250 A:middle L:90%
members do consider the outreach activities and the value of

1949
01:50:48.260 --> 01:50:51.100 A:middle L:90%
the land grant institutions and all of that. But

1950
01:50:51.100 --> 01:50:55.500 A:middle L:90%
that's not to be mistaken on whether we need to

1951
01:50:55.510 --> 01:51:01.100 A:middle L:90%
publish in which way. Excuse me. I remember

1952
01:51:01.100 --> 01:51:06.289 A:middle L:90%
concern here. Yeah, the open access system.

1953
01:51:06.859 --> 01:51:14.409 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, talk about easy access to information and that

1954
01:51:14.409 --> 01:51:16.600 A:middle L:90%
you can get it without any distinction. But then

1955
01:51:16.609 --> 01:51:19.819 A:middle L:90%
people who are defending the strictest system that we're talking

1956
01:51:19.829 --> 01:51:25.880 A:middle L:90%
about the money he's attacking the work process I am

1957
01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:30.270 A:middle L:90%
seeing a couple of years finding that the cost of

1958
01:51:30.279 --> 01:51:38.390 A:middle L:90%
private market investment disclosed those answers. System so we

1959
01:51:38.399 --> 01:51:41.930 A:middle L:90%
might have you putting money as a non stop.

1960
01:51:41.939 --> 01:51:45.479 A:middle L:90%
This is left to the next. You look ridiculous

1961
01:51:45.489 --> 01:51:48.420 A:middle L:90%
that when you open system open open. It is

1962
01:51:48.420 --> 01:51:53.439 A:middle L:90%
a cheap I think that you're going for So I

1963
01:51:53.449 --> 01:51:56.869 A:middle L:90%
think this thing also need to be met together.

1964
01:51:57.359 --> 01:52:00.989 A:middle L:90%
Managed to be used. The parts that are involved

1965
01:52:00.989 --> 01:52:03.180 A:middle L:90%
in the process of burning should be used. They

1966
01:52:03.189 --> 01:52:09.909 A:middle L:90%
are They are a means of to divert attention of

1967
01:52:09.920 --> 01:52:15.689 A:middle L:90%
people from defend. As far as so one should

1968
01:52:15.689 --> 01:52:19.550 A:middle L:90%
not be attached to these people. Stable, Closed

1969
01:52:19.560 --> 01:52:23.000 A:middle L:90%
after system. Yeah, I don't know. I

1970
01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:28.430 A:middle L:90%
don't mind in accordance. Yeah, I agree.

1971
01:52:28.439 --> 01:52:30.609 A:middle L:90%
I have to wonder days, I think. All

1972
01:52:30.609 --> 01:52:34.329 A:middle L:90%
right. Well, thank you all for for coming

1973
01:52:34.340 --> 01:52:45.239 A:middle L:90%
. Give our panel way. If you'd like to

1974
01:52:45.250 --> 01:52:48.289 A:middle L:90%
be on the email list for open events or if

1975
01:52:48.289 --> 01:52:51.739 A:middle L:90%
you prefer in the line of credit on the rail

1976
01:52:53.060 --> 01:52:56.529 A:middle L:90%
and we have we have remember flyers here for the

1977
01:52:56.529 --> 01:52:58.640 A:middle L:90%
other events during the week. You feel free to

1978
01:52:58.649 --> 01:53:01.479 A:middle L:90%
take lunch. Thanks again, everyone. I'll see

1979
01:53:01.479 --> 01:53:02.260 A:middle L:90%
you next week.