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Good afternoon. My name is Jim Collier. I'm

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welcome to the Carol Newman Library at Virginia Tech.

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The library holds a special place in the history of

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social epistemology. In the 19 sixties, the noted

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librarian Jesse Sheriff coined the term social epistemology and forwarding

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a proposal for studying and developing construction environment information sharing

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throughout society. Thank you for attending our future fundamentals

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of social epistemology. The first conference held by the

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Social Epistemology Review and Reply Collective and thank you.

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Especially participating in Steve Keynote address, Social epistemology.

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The future of an unfulfilled promise. I have tapped

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this event a D i Y Do it yourself Conference

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. Given our limited resources, given our limited means

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, the resources we enjoy are all the more significant

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. Without the support of Skip Furman and Department of

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Science and Technology and Society, this conference simply does

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not happen. Thank you, Skip. I also

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want to thank Carolyn Mayer, the first your experience

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librarian at Newman and Joe s co chair of the

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English Department for giving us a place to come to

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and without the technical prowess of Trevor Croker and Adam

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Smith, our conference would not exist beyond these walls

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and without the time and effort of our wonderful STS

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graduate students, some of you might still be lounging

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in the Roanoke airport. Allow me to acknowledge the

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immeasurable contributions of my partner we need before she baked

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for us this morning to the collective, especially as

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she completes and defends her dissertation within the month.

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Finally, many of our conference Panelists have come here

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on their own dime or with limited support. We

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should and will remember. Sounds a bit like remunerated

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, but not quite. Yeah. Steve Fuller launched

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the journal Social Epistemology in 1987. He published the

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first of his 20 books, entitled Social Epistemology,

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in 1988. In a statement of purpose for the

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journal, Steve opens. What is knowledge? Philosophers

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have defined it as truths that are believed for the

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right sort of reasons. In contrast, the more

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energetic members of the sciences have taken knowledge to be

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whatever allows us to control more of the world more

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reliable. Despite this discrepancy, these accounts are nevertheless

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about roughly the same thing. A set of texts

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that are produced so that when read in the right

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way, before human beings, greater understanding of their

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world being as sure as they are about what knowledge

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is. Both the philosophers and the scientists try to

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come up with ways of increasing the production of these

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knowledge bearing texts, usually under the rubric of methodology

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. This part of the story is familiar to the

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practitioners of many disciplines. Social epistemology is founded in

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part on the idea that much of this story,

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as has traditionally been told, seriously misrepresents the nature

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of our knowledge enterprises. We in the Social Epistemology

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Review reply Collective in part from the Journal are online

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scholarship, and our new book series joined Steve and

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telling truthfully the story of knowledge as a comprehensive,

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vital, shared endeavor. Steve Fuller is the August

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professor of social psychology at the University of Work because

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a member of the UK Academy of Social Sciences and

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the European Academy of Sciences and Arts, July 16th

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saw the release of the paperback of Steve's most recent

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book, co authored with Veronica Le Pen, SCCA

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Pro Action Very Imperative and Foundation for Trans Humanism,

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published by Cal Grave McMillan. Much like Steve's book

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, today's keynote addresses the challenges for social epistemology as

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we regard the future, the future of humanity two

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point. Oh, the university two point. Oh

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, and society two point. Oh, please welcome

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Steve Fuller. Well, first of all, let

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me think, Jim Collier, most of all here

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, Um, in a sense, this whole,

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the whole infrastructure that we see here that's responsible for

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this conference, uh, is made possible by him

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. Uh, and I think it is worth saying

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that, uh, it was alluded to in the

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introduction, but I was, uh, an assistant

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associate professor here, Uh, 20 or more years

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ago, Uh, and it was during this period

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that a lot of the sort of germinal ideas of

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social epistemology were, in fact, incubated very often

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in graduate seminars. Uh, and this was a

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very contested period in the history of Virginia Tech with

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regard to the future of science and technology studies.

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Um, and in a way, uh, one

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of the lessons that I've taken from it is that

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you actually need a certain amount of pressure to be

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able to be clear about what it is you actually

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believe and why you believe it. And for that

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reason, if only for that reason alone, but

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maybe for others, Virginia Tech has always been a

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very important part of my career development. Yeah,

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uh, so and I do think social epistemology just

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before we get into the those of you who are

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here in the audience and maybe watching online, uh

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, there is actually a text that's available, uh

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, in the social Epistemology Review and Reply collective website

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. Um, Jim didn't require this of me.

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He just required an abstract. But I felt I

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felt so moved, Uh, by the whole idea

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of thinking about future fundamentals of social epistemology that I

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actually spent 5000 words on the topic. I'm not

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going to repeat them to you today. You can

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read them. I am going to go over things

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that I think are kind of salient and maybe my

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galvanized people in the room here. And I see

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I see quite a few younger people in the room

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. And there is a sense in which where we

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are now is not exactly what I expected, where

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we would be 25 years ago. And and so

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I do think that some of that aspect of the

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story needs to be articulated in terms of how social

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epistemology relates to philosophy and sociology and and probably most

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importantly in the context of Virginia Tech, which still

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has one of the best science and technology studies programs

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in the world. Uh, that field and and

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I just wanna acknowledge right now that the president of

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the major Society for Science Technology studies the four s

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the Society for Social Studies Science is sitting in the

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room, My former colleague Gary Downey, and perhaps

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he will have a question at the end of this

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session. I don't I don't I don't mean to

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put you under any pressure, but I very appreciate

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your your showing up. Uh, as far as

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I know, he's the only faculty member from the

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time I was here. That's actually in the audience

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now, and it's not because they've all left.

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Um, So, uh so, uh, so

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I I just want and I do think that also

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, um, with regard to the book series and

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the online presence those of you who are interested in

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social epistemology in general from a broad range of perspectives

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basically addressing the question that that Jim when he was

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citing my my first book from should actually look it

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up and and and and check out the various things

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that people are saying because this is not some kind

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of fan club thing for me or anything like that

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. But I do think that there are certain kinds

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of general issues with regarding to the nature of knowledge

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, especially where knowledge is going and understanding normative itty

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in that way as a kind of future oriented project

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. I mean, if I have to say that

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, you know, in terms of because one of

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the things that make social epistemology different from, let's

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say, sociology of knowledge and sociology is the fact

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that we're still concerned with normative issues. That is

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to say what knowledge ought to be right, how

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it ought to be produced, how it ought to

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be distributed. All those original questions from 1988 are

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still very much with us today. Okay, um

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and and I do think that if we're thinking we

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should be thinking about this is at multiple levels at

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once. We should be thinking about this from the

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standpoint of some kind of ideal world sort of classical

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normative position that philosophers have addressed in the past,

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you know, almost a platonic position. But we

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also should be thinking about it from the standpoint of

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where do we get from here to there? Right

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from where we are now to where we ought to

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be. And certainly in the early parts of my

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work. And this was reflecting, I think,

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uh, the way in which the term was understood

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at the time. Um, I have thought of

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myself as a naturalist, and this issue came up

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, uh, this morning, this conference has now

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been going on for a couple of days. Uh

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, and this morning, part of the things one

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of the things that was discussed was the idea of

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the role of naturalism. And what does that mean

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? Because typically, when you're in philosophy, you

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think that there is a big gap between the is

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and the ought and naturalism stands for the is in

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that context, right? Naturalism describes how the world

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is, how knowledge is normally, uh, pursued

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right, you know, and and what? Maybe

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even what are the empirical capacities that we have for

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pursuing knowledge, but it doesn't by itself, address

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where we ought to go with this. And social

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epistemology from the very beginning had both of these elements

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in it And so there is a question about how

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do you square the is in the art? And

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it's been one of the things that's made it difficult

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for social epistemology to establish a clear identity because we

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clearly have one field called Philosophy that is concerned about

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knowledge under its ideal conditions. Justified true belief is

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often the mantra that still used within an Alec epistemology

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, which is the dominant school of thinking about knowledge

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. Um, but in sociology, we also have

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the sociology of knowledge and, to a large extent

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, STS, which is mainly concerned with what people

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regard as knowledge, you know, and as it

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were, suspending any kind of further judgments with regard

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to whether it's true or false or good or bad

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or anything of that kind. Okay, and social

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epistemology from the very beginning was designed to bridge that

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gap. That's certainly how I came into the field

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, because in the 19 eighties, um, both

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, you know, everything that I've just laid out

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already existed. Okay, Analytical epistemology had already been

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a fairly recognized subject for at least a generation.

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Okay, and STS was was grad was rather rapidly

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making its presence felt for about 10, 15 years

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or so. Okay, but what was clear was

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that there was a kind of impasse between the two

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, and this was very much manifested in whenever you

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had programs like at Virginia Tech, where you tried

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to get the philosophers and sociologists to be part of

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a common curriculum. Okay, which was that?

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You know, the there there would there, the

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sociologists would say, But knowledge isn't as you guys

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are pretending it to be, and all the stuff

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you're talking about doesn't correspond to anything in the world

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. So why should we take you seriously? But

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the point was, of course, that the philosophers

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were pointing to very important kinds of goals, aims

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and even regulatory principles with regard to the pursuit of

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knowledge that even if they were not realized in the

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world in which we live, were nevertheless quite valuable

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. And then the question becomes, How could you

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realize them? Because the philosopher's clearly don't have a

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clue about it. Okay. And that's kind of

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how I entered into the subject was very much like

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that, right? Where there was a sense in

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which the philosophers were actually addressing the right questions.

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There's no doubt about it. There is a question

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of what's the point of knowledge, right? And

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so there's this quick asking, fundamental questions is it

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is fine, right? But then the issue is

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, how do you answer them? How do you

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answer that, Right. And what sort of constraints

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do you put in? What counts as an appropriate

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answer? And here I think both history and sociology

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have a lot to contribute to this enterprise. Okay

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, um, so what, you know, in

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terms of my own intellectual development, a very important

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, uh, kind of point is the response that

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can't gave to David Human, Hume said. You

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cannot derive an art. Furman is, Khan says

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. Well, an art always implies a can.

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Okay, and that's the sense of naturalism. That's

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the sense of the history and sociology of science,

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of the empirical disciplines that's relevant with regard to the

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ends of knowledge. As far as I've always thought

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about social epistemology, namely, that there are empirical

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constraints on the conditions under which we can pursue knowledge

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regardless of what the ends are, I mean,

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if you want to be crashed, it's like living

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within your means. It's a bit like that Okay

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, Um and this is one reason, by the

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way, and some people don't like this aspect of

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my thinking that I have not been antagonistic to economists

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because economists understand, I think this point constrained maximization

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, optimization, all these kinds of notions. This

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has also been very much part of the way I've

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thought about social epistemology from the beginning as well.

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Okay, so there's definitely an empirical and naturalistic component

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, but it's in terms of giving you a realistic

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sense of the conditions under which you're trying to pursue

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the ends, which really believe ought to be realized

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. I mean, it makes no sense to articulate

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ends that nobody is going to be persuaded to do

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. Nobody's going to want to do. Nobody has

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the capacity physically to do like, no, all

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the truths in your own mind. Okay, that

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is off the table. But there's still a lot

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on the table as a result. Now, if

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I had to say how my thinking has changed in

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the way I've interpreted this over the last 25 years

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and and and this is where you know, Jim

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alluded to the humanity two point oh, stuff which

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I've been working on, um, is that if

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you look at constant victim, what implies can,

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um the normal way of reading that is in a

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very straight, naturalistic way, which is to say

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that you sort of look at what the creatures are

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capable of doing, and then you decide what it

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is you can you can demand of them. But

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now I've got a sort of somewhat different view,

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which is that you can actually mess with the can

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, right? In other words, that can is

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not necessarily a limited term. Just because it is

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naturalistic, it doesn't mean you can't expand it or

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you can't change it in some substantial way, right

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? So if it turns out that you actually want

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people to behave in a certain way or no certain

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things that they're not normally capable of doing, given

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what they've got, then you, of course,

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have the option of expanding those capacities in some way

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. Okay. And and and I and you know

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, if there's been a shift in my thinking over

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the last 25 years with regard to this point,

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it's this right, and this is why I've been

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open to a lot of the trans humanist stuff.

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And I'm now even endorsing a certain kind of version

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of trans humanism. Okay, because I actually see

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, here's where I'm very much. Still a philosopher

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actually think this idea of trying to under getting a

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maximally comprehensive understanding of reality, what philosophers in the

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past have called by shorthand. Truth is not a

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bad thing, okay? It is not a bad

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thing, right? But one has to be realistic

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about the terms under which this kind of thing is

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pursued, right? And that involves probably changing people

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quite a lot. And the question is, what

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kinds of changes are we willing to undergo and impose

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on others and still retain our basic humanity? In

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a sense, I think this is where the question

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of social epistemology starts moving into what nowadays is fashionably

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called the ontological dimension. Right? In other words

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, who are the appropriate agents as no hours?

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Okay. And that's kind of where I am at

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the moment. I'm on that point. Um,

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and and here we have to sort of, you

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know, people will have many different views about how

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far we should go and so forth. Um,

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but I do think that that this is, You

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know, if you want to understand my intellectual trajectory

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, especially within the context of naturalism, Um,

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this is kind of where I have gone on this

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. It's come about that way. But let me

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so people can ask questions about this in the future

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. This is a This is an issue that is

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about my personal intellectual trajectory. But now, with

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regard to, uh, how social epistemology relates to

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the development of science, technology studies and the various

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issues coming from that in the 19 eighties and how

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we've moved forward, I want to say a little

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bit about the history of this because I think this

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is kind of, in a way, a bit

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of a didactic story. Um, I think the

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first way to the first thing you have to keep

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in mind here. For those of you, especially

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those who who are too young to actually have experienced

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this, uh, is that starting with, uh

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, actually starting with Popper? But certainly by the

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time we get to Thomas Kuhn, um, we

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start to get a much more self critical understanding of

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science within philosophy. Okay, Um, and that

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and that self critical understanding uh, is very much

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informed by historical knowledge and that historical knowledge is often

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being presented at the time in the 19 sixties and

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19 seventies and into the 19 eighties, as in

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some way falsifying the philosophical ideals. Okay, so

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my first visit to Virginia Tech in 1986 where I

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wanna dance contest at the holiday on prices work Road

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, Um, was run by Larry Loud, who

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is, uh, illustrious, uh, professor here

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in science and technology studies. Perhaps the first one

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I maybe Gary knows. I mean, but but

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but okay, but But what? Okay. Okay

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, Well, Larry Loudon was a very important figure

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. He was the main man. Okay. Okay

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, Well, the thing about Larry Loudon was when

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he convened this conference in 1986 right, Uh,

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which was then subsequently published as a collection of papers

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by, uh, by by what's now known as

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Kluwer. I guess if if that's still around,

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unless it's been eaten up by Springer, I always

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forget. Um, it was called scrutinizing Science.

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And Arthur Donovan, who was a historian of science

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here, was also the co editor of this volume

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. Um and and and the thing about this what

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this conference was about that this volume was based on

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were people coming up with case studies trying to show

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whether philosophical norms about scientific rationality, uh, were

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actually born out in the history of science. So

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is this kind of mass kind of empirical test and

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so loud himself had laid out all the all the

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claims being made by all the normative philosophers from the

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positiveness on cocoon LaTasha all the rest of them,

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right. And then people would be volunteering their case

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studies showing, Yes, this shows lack of Tosh

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is right or this shows poppers or something like this

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. And this was the book. Now the reason

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why I bring this up is because there was already

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within philosophy and there continues to be within philosophy,

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right? A substantial amount of criticism, self criticism

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, skepticism about whether the most high flown philosophical norms

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about knowledge are really adequate to understanding the nature of

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science. And so that kind of empirical, that

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desire for empirical testing, right actually opened the door

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for the sociology and history of science to be incorporated

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within the philosophy of science, which I certainly think

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with an institution like this help STS to flourish because

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STS is a philosophy based thing. As far as

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I understand, at least my understanding historically of it

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is a philosophy was always kind of a strong player

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. Um uh, and and this is this is

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not a trivial point, because I sort of come

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from that as well, right? I'm a kind

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of philosopher who, you know, who said Well

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, uh, you know, we're concerned about the

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nature of knowledge and all the rest of it,

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But, God, all these norms of these philosophers

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are promoting, right? Like, you should know

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all you should know that all the implications of all

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the of all the beliefs that your theories say are

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true this kind of stuff, right? This is

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ridiculous. No human being can be like this.

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We can't have our norm stated in this fashion.

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Okay, um and and so I was part of

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that as well. But my view was that the

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historical and sociological corrective to the philosophy of science that

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we were already seeing very much in the 19 seventies

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and eighties would be, as it were, a

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second moment of a dialectic right where the first moment

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you might say was the philosopher's putting out these norms

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of what science is about and then having a lot

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of gullible sociologists like Robert Merton believing them, right

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, Because, you know, Robert Merton, he

410
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.019 A:middle L:90%
basically just swallows the whole thing. And if you

411
00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:08.930 A:middle L:90%
look at, you know, Robert Merton, not

412
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:11.319 A:middle L:90%
, you know, obviously a very significant respect,

413
00:22:11.329 --> 00:22:14.670 A:middle L:90%
respectable kind of guy. But nevertheless, if you

414
00:22:14.670 --> 00:22:17.789 A:middle L:90%
look at the evidence for the so called norms of

415
00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:21.990 A:middle L:90%
science that he talks about their basically statements of philosophers

416
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.869 A:middle L:90%
or scientists about how science is done, it is

417
00:22:23.869 --> 00:22:26.369 A:middle L:90%
not actually how science is done. It is not

418
00:22:26.369 --> 00:22:30.259 A:middle L:90%
actually reporting how science is done. What is what

419
00:22:30.269 --> 00:22:33.049 A:middle L:90%
various important scientific type people say about how science is

420
00:22:33.049 --> 00:22:37.450 A:middle L:90%
done. And that was the basis for Mertens Sociology

421
00:22:37.450 --> 00:22:40.900 A:middle L:90%
of science. This doesn't mean it's wrong, but

422
00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:42.359 A:middle L:90%
it means it does have a kind of evidence problem

423
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:47.059 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, And so this See, this is

424
00:22:47.059 --> 00:22:48.730 A:middle L:90%
where it throws the normative question back at you,

425
00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:52.289 A:middle L:90%
right? Because if you're somewhat attracted, you know

426
00:22:52.289 --> 00:22:55.910 A:middle L:90%
, to what Merton was saying or what Popper was

427
00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:57.190 A:middle L:90%
saying or any of those big guys, the logical

428
00:22:57.190 --> 00:23:00.329 A:middle L:90%
positives were saying and he said, Yeah, you

429
00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:03.059 A:middle L:90%
know that is a kind of interesting model of rationality

430
00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:06.150 A:middle L:90%
. But now you've got all these other guys coming

431
00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:07.799 A:middle L:90%
in, these historians and sociologists saying this is not

432
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.599 A:middle L:90%
how science is actually done. Then what do I

433
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.269 A:middle L:90%
make of it? That's your normative problem, right

434
00:23:15.269 --> 00:23:17.869 A:middle L:90%
? And that's where the Soc Social epistemology enters the

435
00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:19.559 A:middle L:90%
scene because the social epistemology has to figure out.

436
00:23:19.569 --> 00:23:22.359 A:middle L:90%
Okay, what do I do about this? Is

437
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.920 A:middle L:90%
it simply a matter that science is not living up

438
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.980 A:middle L:90%
to its own hype? In which case, then

439
00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:32.269 A:middle L:90%
the norms might be worth pursuing. But we need

440
00:23:32.269 --> 00:23:34.619 A:middle L:90%
to find different social arrangements for them to be pursued

441
00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.390 A:middle L:90%
to enable them to be pursued. We might need

442
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.849 A:middle L:90%
greater regulation, better pedagogy, something like that.

443
00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:45.599 A:middle L:90%
Or do we say those norms just shows we falsified

444
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:47.940 A:middle L:90%
them? They're false. They're wrong. Get rid

445
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:49.670 A:middle L:90%
of them. Science is no different than anything else

446
00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:52.660 A:middle L:90%
, right? And this is kind of the fork

447
00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.079 A:middle L:90%
on the road. I don't know how much you

448
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:56.059 A:middle L:90%
younger people see this fork on the road, but

449
00:23:56.059 --> 00:23:57.529 A:middle L:90%
this was certainly the fork in the road. And

450
00:23:57.529 --> 00:24:00.410 A:middle L:90%
then in the late 19 eighties, okay, because

451
00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:03.349 A:middle L:90%
it's pretty clear what was going on. Okay,

452
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.329 A:middle L:90%
Um and social epistemology was meant to address that kind

453
00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:08.910 A:middle L:90%
of issue and my own personal view about this.

454
00:24:08.910 --> 00:24:11.160 A:middle L:90%
And this has been very much the way I've thought

455
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:17.740 A:middle L:90%
about things since, uh is that philosophy needs to

456
00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:21.089 A:middle L:90%
be needs to really take on board just about every

457
00:24:21.089 --> 00:24:23.329 A:middle L:90%
empirical thing that the history and sociology of science has

458
00:24:23.329 --> 00:24:26.960 A:middle L:90%
said. Take it on board, swallow it,

459
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:30.910 A:middle L:90%
suck it in. But then still stay with the

460
00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:37.470 A:middle L:90%
project of normative itty right. Um, you know

461
00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.960 A:middle L:90%
, So in other words, there is nothing wrong

462
00:24:41.539 --> 00:24:44.619 A:middle L:90%
with the with the principle of shooting for the skies

463
00:24:44.630 --> 00:24:45.920 A:middle L:90%
with regard to trying to come up with a maximum

464
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.319 A:middle L:90%
comprehensive view of the world. But it doesn't make

465
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:52.759 A:middle L:90%
any sense from a practical standpoint or a theoretical standpoint

466
00:24:52.769 --> 00:24:56.259 A:middle L:90%
, if you are not fully armed, knowing all

467
00:24:56.269 --> 00:24:59.430 A:middle L:90%
of the things that are problematic about the way it

468
00:24:59.430 --> 00:25:03.059 A:middle L:90%
is currently pursued. And that's why I see the

469
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:06.170 A:middle L:90%
second moment of a dialectic typically is the critical moment

470
00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:07.880 A:middle L:90%
. And what I saw Science and technology studies as

471
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.519 A:middle L:90%
being primarily was a critical foil, but not a

472
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:18.269 A:middle L:90%
thing unto itself. And this is the problem,

473
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.880 A:middle L:90%
right? Um, because what you now have with

474
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:23.859 A:middle L:90%
science and technology studies, which is, I think

475
00:25:23.869 --> 00:25:26.230 A:middle L:90%
, uh, in a way, in its own

476
00:25:26.230 --> 00:25:29.509 A:middle L:90%
kind of crazy way, I would say, uh

477
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:32.819 A:middle L:90%
, sort of very well institutionalized in the neoliberal environment

478
00:25:32.829 --> 00:25:34.569 A:middle L:90%
, because the neoliberal environment is very anti institutional,

479
00:25:34.579 --> 00:25:37.819 A:middle L:90%
and science and technology studies kind of rolls with the

480
00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:41.369 A:middle L:90%
flow very well in this environment, right? But

481
00:25:41.369 --> 00:25:44.480 A:middle L:90%
what you end up having, um, is a

482
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.930 A:middle L:90%
situation where the science technology studies person can always come

483
00:25:48.930 --> 00:25:53.140 A:middle L:90%
in and say where things are falling short, where

484
00:25:53.140 --> 00:25:56.740 A:middle L:90%
the norms and the claims aren't being met, right

485
00:25:56.750 --> 00:26:00.670 A:middle L:90%
, bringing in the other voices that demonstrate that fact

486
00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.109 A:middle L:90%
but never taking a position on their own part and

487
00:26:03.109 --> 00:26:06.180 A:middle L:90%
just sort of moving from client to client as a

488
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:11.470 A:middle L:90%
kind of perennial troubleshooter. And God knows there are

489
00:26:11.470 --> 00:26:12.680 A:middle L:90%
so many people who are interested in controlling the flow

490
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.670 A:middle L:90%
of knowledge in the world today, quite rightly.

491
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.559 A:middle L:90%
But this kind of ability, this kind of skill

492
00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:22.640 A:middle L:90%
, is very valuable, right? It is a

493
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.869 A:middle L:90%
very valuable skill, not denying this, But certainly

494
00:26:26.869 --> 00:26:30.059 A:middle L:90%
this is not why I thought the field was attractive

495
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:33.210 A:middle L:90%
in the first place. I thought of it as

496
00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:36.470 A:middle L:90%
basically just a critical foil for a project where we

497
00:26:36.470 --> 00:26:37.890 A:middle L:90%
would come up with this kind of larger, more

498
00:26:37.890 --> 00:26:41.779 A:middle L:90%
comprehensive picture of knowledge which everybody would be involved in

499
00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:45.970 A:middle L:90%
would be kind of the ultimate kind of resolution of

500
00:26:45.970 --> 00:26:48.549 A:middle L:90%
the project of humanity. This is one of the

501
00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:51.660 A:middle L:90%
reasons why my professorship in Warrick is called bogus concept

502
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:52.859 A:middle L:90%
, because I sort of believe this crazy stuff.

503
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.140 A:middle L:90%
But I don't think I was the only one of

504
00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:56.880 A:middle L:90%
the Karl Marx sort of believe this. I think

505
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.039 A:middle L:90%
a lot of people, certainly in the 19th century

506
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:00.880 A:middle L:90%
, maybe that shows my age more than I would

507
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.839 A:middle L:90%
like to. But But the point is that that

508
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.289 A:middle L:90%
that I believe that that that is kind of what

509
00:27:07.289 --> 00:27:10.019 A:middle L:90%
I thought was going on there. And so then

510
00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:11.680 A:middle L:90%
, um, see, at the time I was

511
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.049 A:middle L:90%
writing something like social epistemology and then a lot of

512
00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:15.849 A:middle L:90%
the early works, including philosophy rhetoric. In the

513
00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:18.079 A:middle L:90%
end of knowledge, which I wrote, I was

514
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:23.670 A:middle L:90%
here, Um, the question there was, um

515
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:30.369 A:middle L:90%
is science or knowledge production to limited because it has

516
00:27:30.369 --> 00:27:33.670 A:middle L:90%
this kind of false self understanding of itself, because

517
00:27:33.670 --> 00:27:36.680 A:middle L:90%
these scientists kind of buy into what all these,

518
00:27:36.690 --> 00:27:40.230 A:middle L:90%
you know, philosophers say that knowledge is justified.

519
00:27:40.230 --> 00:27:42.059 A:middle L:90%
True, belief and we've got the monopoly on it

520
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.779 A:middle L:90%
. And then we have these disciplines that can endlessly

521
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:49.349 A:middle L:90%
reproduce themselves in universities that therefore we are the Vanguards

522
00:27:49.349 --> 00:27:52.349 A:middle L:90%
of humanity. And I was, of course,

523
00:27:52.349 --> 00:27:53.289 A:middle L:90%
very critical of that. This But this was the

524
00:27:53.289 --> 00:27:56.250 A:middle L:90%
19 eighties and early 19 nineties. This was before

525
00:27:56.259 --> 00:28:00.960 A:middle L:90%
the end of the Cold War and the neoliberal experience

526
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.450 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, And the point about the point to

527
00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:07.769 A:middle L:90%
make here is for me somebody like Thomas Kuhn,

528
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.250 A:middle L:90%
who I'm sure you'll all know about, right.

529
00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:14.769 A:middle L:90%
He was always kind of the enemy because he had

530
00:28:14.769 --> 00:28:18.009 A:middle L:90%
this very insular view about knowledge, right? He

531
00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:19.000 A:middle L:90%
had this view about knowledge. That's only the knowledge

532
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.700 A:middle L:90%
producers to determine what knowledge is, and and they're

533
00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:25.029 A:middle L:90%
kind of an elite club in a way, um

534
00:28:25.029 --> 00:28:26.130 A:middle L:90%
, and and then whatever impact they have on the

535
00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:30.240 A:middle L:90%
rest of society is determined once they've defined, once

536
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.730 A:middle L:90%
they've decided that they have a mature kind of knowledge

537
00:28:33.730 --> 00:28:36.380 A:middle L:90%
base, right, a kind of normal science that

538
00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:37.559 A:middle L:90%
is pursued on a regular basis, but before then

539
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.920 A:middle L:90%
, they don't act. So it was presuming a

540
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.779 A:middle L:90%
very strong boundary between the academic knowledge production and the

541
00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.829 A:middle L:90%
larger society and from my standpoint, if we're talking

542
00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:51.230 A:middle L:90%
about something that's going to empower all of humanity,

543
00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.690 A:middle L:90%
that seemed incredibly limited. But again, that was

544
00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:56.720 A:middle L:90%
during a time when there was a clear boundary between

545
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:02.079 A:middle L:90%
the university and the rest of society. Okay,

546
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:03.609 A:middle L:90%
I mean, I think that's a very important point

547
00:29:03.609 --> 00:29:04.269 A:middle L:90%
here, right when we talk, you know,

548
00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:07.789 A:middle L:90%
those of you still study the history and philosophy of

549
00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:07.920 A:middle L:90%
science. I don't know if this is kind of

550
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.259 A:middle L:90%
an antique subject or not, but the point is

551
00:29:11.269 --> 00:29:11.990 A:middle L:90%
that if you still study it there, there there

552
00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:14.819 A:middle L:90%
is in the in the literature, this distinction,

553
00:29:14.859 --> 00:29:17.730 A:middle L:90%
internal and external history of science. This, in

554
00:29:17.730 --> 00:29:19.039 A:middle L:90%
a way betrays the age of the of the issue

555
00:29:19.049 --> 00:29:22.589 A:middle L:90%
. Right, because that was a really clear distinction

556
00:29:22.589 --> 00:29:27.269 A:middle L:90%
to make when you actually had these relatively insulated,

557
00:29:27.289 --> 00:29:32.950 A:middle L:90%
self sustaining knowledge communities typically subsidized by the state without

558
00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:36.650 A:middle L:90%
question, being able to reproduce themselves indefinitely. And

559
00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:37.720 A:middle L:90%
so if they change their mind about something, they

560
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:40.680 A:middle L:90%
would do it on their own terms and not from

561
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.119 A:middle L:90%
anything from the outside. Okay, with the Cold

562
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.099 A:middle L:90%
War, believe it or not, for you,

563
00:29:48.099 --> 00:29:51.369 A:middle L:90%
young people was the Golden Age. For this view

564
00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:52.039 A:middle L:90%
, you might think of a cold War as this

565
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.420 A:middle L:90%
enormously politicized kind of worldview that we all lived through

566
00:29:56.430 --> 00:29:59.309 A:middle L:90%
. But that was actually a point where science was

567
00:29:59.309 --> 00:30:04.190 A:middle L:90%
most protected now when the Cold War ended. Now

568
00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:07.319 A:middle L:90%
what was the reason for that were largely because in

569
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.109 A:middle L:90%
the Cold War, people were thinking in terms of

570
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.789 A:middle L:90%
indefinite long term threats, and that then actually inspired

571
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:18.400 A:middle L:90%
a lot of blue skies thinking problem is, once

572
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:19.779 A:middle L:90%
that ended and nobody believed any longer that Russia was

573
00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:22.319 A:middle L:90%
going to throw a nuclear bomb at the United States

574
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.190 A:middle L:90%
. Then people retreated and their imaginations retreated. And

575
00:30:26.190 --> 00:30:29.250 A:middle L:90%
then we had much more short term ist vision.

576
00:30:29.259 --> 00:30:30.849 A:middle L:90%
Uh, and this then kind of market ties the

577
00:30:30.849 --> 00:30:33.779 A:middle L:90%
science environment. In other words, unless you can

578
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:37.099 A:middle L:90%
show over a relatively short period of time that your

579
00:30:37.099 --> 00:30:38.200 A:middle L:90%
your science is going to be able to produce results

580
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.299 A:middle L:90%
that is a benefit to the client, then you

581
00:30:41.299 --> 00:30:44.349 A:middle L:90%
know, we you know we won't fund you.

582
00:30:45.339 --> 00:30:45.839 A:middle L:90%
And one of the things that you can see over

583
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:49.250 A:middle L:90%
the last 25 years is marked decline in physics research

584
00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:53.650 A:middle L:90%
and the mark uprise in biomedical research. And that

585
00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:56.559 A:middle L:90%
reflects the kind of tendency I'm talking about here okay

586
00:30:57.140 --> 00:31:00.460 A:middle L:90%
. And the state has kind of retreated as a

587
00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:02.269 A:middle L:90%
major player. It's still a player, of course

588
00:31:02.269 --> 00:31:03.519 A:middle L:90%
, an important player. But But it's been opened

589
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.920 A:middle L:90%
up to larger market forces and not only has been

590
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:08.650 A:middle L:90%
opened up, the larger market forces a greater tolerance

591
00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:12.549 A:middle L:90%
for market forces. So the words people are complaining

592
00:31:12.549 --> 00:31:15.170 A:middle L:90%
as much as they might have 25 years ago.

593
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.059 A:middle L:90%
Okay, so all of this is this ends up

594
00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:22.240 A:middle L:90%
then changing what social epistemology can be okay, because

595
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.700 A:middle L:90%
back in 1988 I had this kind of view.

596
00:31:26.740 --> 00:31:30.049 A:middle L:90%
I was alluding to it this morning that, uh

597
00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:30.700 A:middle L:90%
, you know, if you got a social epistemology

598
00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:33.630 A:middle L:90%
ist whispering in the ear of the Minister of higher

599
00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:36.420 A:middle L:90%
Education in some developed country, that could sort it

600
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:41.730 A:middle L:90%
out because knowledge production was pretty much a state monopoly

601
00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:45.710 A:middle L:90%
. Right? And even and even the private enterprises

602
00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:48.369 A:middle L:90%
that produce knowledge were very much oriented toward these kind

603
00:31:48.369 --> 00:31:52.900 A:middle L:90%
of state subsidized pure review panels and the National Science

604
00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:53.450 A:middle L:90%
Foundation. Because, of course, the National Science

605
00:31:53.450 --> 00:31:56.720 A:middle L:90%
Foundation has never had a monopoly on funding. But

606
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.589 A:middle L:90%
nevertheless, it is always set a kind of gold

607
00:31:59.589 --> 00:32:01.289 A:middle L:90%
standard that people really respected. And so they would

608
00:32:01.289 --> 00:32:04.009 A:middle L:90%
be looking to that as a way to orient their

609
00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:05.720 A:middle L:90%
own activities. All this is gone. It seems

610
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:07.759 A:middle L:90%
to me now, because the National Science Foundation is

611
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.690 A:middle L:90%
not funding people, but I just don't think the

612
00:32:10.690 --> 00:32:14.319 A:middle L:90%
same levels of respect, deference, whatever you want

613
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:15.380 A:middle L:90%
to call it, the normative structure. In other

614
00:32:15.380 --> 00:32:17.759 A:middle L:90%
words, of knowledge, production has changed very radically

615
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:21.059 A:middle L:90%
, right? Even if the numbers on the ground

616
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:23.900 A:middle L:90%
don't look so obviously changed. Okay, um,

617
00:32:23.910 --> 00:32:27.240 A:middle L:90%
and this then puts the social epistemology is in a

618
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.950 A:middle L:90%
rather difficult, different kind of problem. Okay,

619
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.509 A:middle L:90%
um, because there does then become a kind of

620
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:37.980 A:middle L:90%
open question about all right, um, we are

621
00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:39.859 A:middle L:90%
now living in a world that, in a sense

622
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.099 A:middle L:90%
, is much less centralist in terms of its political

623
00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:47.170 A:middle L:90%
focus than it had been in the past. Okay

624
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.740 A:middle L:90%
, And I think that's a really important point because

625
00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:54.000 A:middle L:90%
all of these arguments about we should be pursuing a

626
00:32:54.009 --> 00:33:00.049 A:middle L:90%
maximally comprehensive view of reality and the truth and all

627
00:33:00.049 --> 00:33:02.390 A:middle L:90%
this, uh, really presupposed that there is a

628
00:33:02.390 --> 00:33:06.210 A:middle L:90%
way of ensuring that everyone can get on the same

629
00:33:06.210 --> 00:33:08.609 A:middle L:90%
page with this project. Right? So they all

630
00:33:08.609 --> 00:33:10.450 A:middle L:90%
have a kind of common sense of what's good and

631
00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:14.970 A:middle L:90%
bad knowledge and all the rest of that. I

632
00:33:14.970 --> 00:33:15.210 A:middle L:90%
think at the end of the Cold War, we

633
00:33:15.210 --> 00:33:19.269 A:middle L:90%
sort of lost that, Um and and so now

634
00:33:19.269 --> 00:33:22.039 A:middle L:90%
there's a sense in which, more than ever,

635
00:33:22.049 --> 00:33:24.910 A:middle L:90%
anyone who wants to practice social epistemology has has got

636
00:33:24.910 --> 00:33:30.259 A:middle L:90%
to be in the business of constructing those larger aims

637
00:33:30.309 --> 00:33:35.579 A:middle L:90%
. Those larger goals, those more comprehensive understandings of

638
00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:39.119 A:middle L:90%
reality that people who otherwise would have radically different interests

639
00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:43.319 A:middle L:90%
could mobilize around. Because in the past the state

640
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.349 A:middle L:90%
kind of readily manufactured that through the maintenance of university

641
00:33:46.349 --> 00:33:50.180 A:middle L:90%
systems and and, you know, through maintenance of

642
00:33:50.190 --> 00:33:53.150 A:middle L:90%
by setting the standards for research and everybody respected right

643
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:54.519 A:middle L:90%
. There was a sense in which it was easy

644
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.720 A:middle L:90%
to think about heading toward the truth because because,

645
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:00.829 A:middle L:90%
in a sense, all the power and the resources

646
00:34:00.829 --> 00:34:04.460 A:middle L:90%
were kind of being channeled in the same direction,

647
00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:07.000 A:middle L:90%
so that that, in fact, fueled that sort

648
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:08.860 A:middle L:90%
of imagination. Right after all, the Cold War

649
00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:13.530 A:middle L:90%
was about competing aims for humanity. That was the

650
00:34:13.530 --> 00:34:15.750 A:middle L:90%
bottom line, right? It would either be a

651
00:34:15.750 --> 00:34:19.289 A:middle L:90%
capitalist future or a socialist future, and it was

652
00:34:19.289 --> 00:34:21.940 A:middle L:90%
about ultimate aims. And this is why the nuclear

653
00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:24.550 A:middle L:90%
thing was always such a vivid player in the imaginations

654
00:34:24.550 --> 00:34:28.510 A:middle L:90%
of anyone who talked about this stuff. Okay.

655
00:34:28.510 --> 00:34:29.829 A:middle L:90%
And for those of you who are too young to

656
00:34:29.829 --> 00:34:31.670 A:middle L:90%
remember, this is true. This is really true

657
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:35.400 A:middle L:90%
. And it all sort of disappeared when the Soviet

658
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.630 A:middle L:90%
Union collapsed. Okay, Um, and and so

659
00:34:38.630 --> 00:34:42.000 A:middle L:90%
what this means, then, is that anyone who

660
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.889 A:middle L:90%
wants to have this kind of universal, comprehensive view

661
00:34:44.889 --> 00:34:46.840 A:middle L:90%
of, you know, humanity and knowledge and so

662
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:51.059 A:middle L:90%
forth actually has to make the argument from scratching away

663
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:53.929 A:middle L:90%
, right? In this sense, the kinds of

664
00:34:53.929 --> 00:34:58.369 A:middle L:90%
skills that science and technology studies are undoubted masters in

665
00:34:58.610 --> 00:35:00.750 A:middle L:90%
that is to say, social construction of reality.

666
00:35:00.139 --> 00:35:02.530 A:middle L:90%
Okay, to use Peter burgers term, right.

667
00:35:02.539 --> 00:35:06.639 A:middle L:90%
This is what's needed now. And what we need

668
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.739 A:middle L:90%
to do is to manufacture this kind of larger global

669
00:35:08.739 --> 00:35:13.059 A:middle L:90%
vision because it's no longer always already available to us

670
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.630 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, um, and this and this is

671
00:35:16.630 --> 00:35:20.030 A:middle L:90%
why I would say one of the constants in my

672
00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.250 A:middle L:90%
thinking has been that I've always been a very,

673
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.289 A:middle L:90%
very strong social constructivist. But also I've been a

674
00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:30.050 A:middle L:90%
Universalist and that but But I've never had any illusions

675
00:35:30.050 --> 00:35:32.010 A:middle L:90%
that universalism was somehow a priority or something you can

676
00:35:32.010 --> 00:35:34.969 A:middle L:90%
take for granted or anything of that sort. It

677
00:35:34.969 --> 00:35:37.000 A:middle L:90%
has to be actively constructed now, the most natural

678
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.570 A:middle L:90%
place for this act of construction to occur, right

679
00:35:40.579 --> 00:35:45.079 A:middle L:90%
? In terms of sociology, is the university okay

680
00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:47.739 A:middle L:90%
? The university being a place where you have an

681
00:35:47.739 --> 00:35:52.750 A:middle L:90%
institution that is actually explicitly dedicated to the pursuit of

682
00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:54.659 A:middle L:90%
all forms of knowledge that are worth pursuing right and

683
00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:57.900 A:middle L:90%
historically being subsidized by the state. So in a

684
00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:00.750 A:middle L:90%
sense, it's on behalf of all of humanity,

685
00:36:01.030 --> 00:36:05.309 A:middle L:90%
okay? And it's in this context, and this

686
00:36:05.309 --> 00:36:07.340 A:middle L:90%
is why I have always been very much a very

687
00:36:07.349 --> 00:36:09.150 A:middle L:90%
interested in the history of the university, has been

688
00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:14.010 A:middle L:90%
very, very much active in defending academic freedom and

689
00:36:14.019 --> 00:36:15.909 A:middle L:90%
and defending the integrity of the university as an institution

690
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.400 A:middle L:90%
that is separable from other kinds of institutions that pursue

691
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.719 A:middle L:90%
knowledge as well. I'm not saying it's wrong for

692
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:23.469 A:middle L:90%
other institutions to pursue knowledge, but I do think

693
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:28.110 A:middle L:90%
that the university really requires a privileged position. If

694
00:36:28.110 --> 00:36:30.449 A:middle L:90%
we're if, from a sociologically realistic standpoint, we're

695
00:36:30.449 --> 00:36:34.489 A:middle L:90%
going to have any kind of chance of thinking about

696
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:37.760 A:middle L:90%
some kind of universal progressive standpoint that all of humanity

697
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:42.469 A:middle L:90%
could line up behind. This doesn't necessarily require that

698
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.900 A:middle L:90%
everyone be part of a university. That's, I

699
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.530 A:middle L:90%
think, at a very important point. It doesn't

700
00:36:47.530 --> 00:36:51.389 A:middle L:90%
require that, but it does require that the university

701
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.119 A:middle L:90%
is very well connected institutionally with the other sectors of

702
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:59.679 A:middle L:90%
society, including secondary and primary school level. Okay

703
00:36:59.690 --> 00:37:00.599 A:middle L:90%
, I mean, I do think that there's a

704
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:04.090 A:middle L:90%
sense in which one needs a very joined up education

705
00:37:04.090 --> 00:37:07.349 A:middle L:90%
policy in order to enable this to happen. And

706
00:37:07.349 --> 00:37:08.179 A:middle L:90%
one of the problems that I think we see today

707
00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:12.420 A:middle L:90%
with regard to the university, um, is first

708
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:14.480 A:middle L:90%
of all, the distinctiveness of the university as a

709
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.059 A:middle L:90%
corporate entity and one of the original corporate entities from

710
00:37:16.059 --> 00:37:20.409 A:middle L:90%
the Middle Ages has been this idea of teaching and

711
00:37:20.409 --> 00:37:22.960 A:middle L:90%
research as being integral to each other. Okay.

712
00:37:23.329 --> 00:37:25.769 A:middle L:90%
Research, of course, is always by definition,

713
00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:29.110 A:middle L:90%
a kind of elite activity in so far as one

714
00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.159 A:middle L:90%
does it privately and does it through one's own resources

715
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:35.090 A:middle L:90%
and maybe with grants and so forth, but usually

716
00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:37.750 A:middle L:90%
at some imagined cutting edge. But the teaching function

717
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:43.840 A:middle L:90%
actually brings the research back to the people and universities

718
00:37:43.949 --> 00:37:45.679 A:middle L:90%
, the great genius of the universities and one of

719
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.869 A:middle L:90%
the reasons why universities are rightly seen as democratizing institutions

720
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:52.480 A:middle L:90%
in the modern period is because by requiring that those

721
00:37:52.489 --> 00:37:53.920 A:middle L:90%
who do the research actually teach it to others who

722
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:57.369 A:middle L:90%
have nothing to do with its production or will be

723
00:37:57.369 --> 00:38:00.699 A:middle L:90%
likely to actually contribute to its further production, right

724
00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:04.690 A:middle L:90%
is a very important moment in the general humanization of

725
00:38:04.690 --> 00:38:07.760 A:middle L:90%
society. And this was certainly the vision of Bill

726
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:09.409 A:middle L:90%
Ham von Humboldt in the beginning of the 19th century

727
00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:13.630 A:middle L:90%
, with the ideal of the of the of the

728
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:15.409 A:middle L:90%
modern university, as rector of the University of Berlin

729
00:38:15.409 --> 00:38:20.230 A:middle L:90%
and minister for higher Education and pressure, and I

730
00:38:20.230 --> 00:38:22.250 A:middle L:90%
think we're in the process of losing that and losing

731
00:38:22.250 --> 00:38:24.789 A:middle L:90%
it largely to what in In a In a book

732
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.030 A:middle L:90%
? Uh, I, I wrote now about a

733
00:38:28.030 --> 00:38:30.199 A:middle L:90%
dozen years ago called Knowledge Management Foundations, is we're

734
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:35.920 A:middle L:90%
getting the desegregation of functions from the university very similar

735
00:38:35.929 --> 00:38:38.800 A:middle L:90%
to the kind of desegregation that we see in business

736
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:40.539 A:middle L:90%
generally, right? So, in other words,

737
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.070 A:middle L:90%
if a business is going to run efficiently, you

738
00:38:44.070 --> 00:38:45.900 A:middle L:90%
can't have them doing too many things at once or

739
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:49.630 A:middle L:90%
certainly not requiring that your staff do too many things

740
00:38:49.630 --> 00:38:51.690 A:middle L:90%
at once. You have to have people playing to

741
00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:52.699 A:middle L:90%
their strengths, which means in the case of a

742
00:38:52.699 --> 00:38:55.159 A:middle L:90%
university, you'll have a class of people doing research

743
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:59.190 A:middle L:90%
and glass of people doing doing teaching, and there

744
00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:02.719 A:middle L:90%
is no special obligation or requirement that they combine the

745
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.139 A:middle L:90%
two functions. And, of course, if you

746
00:39:06.139 --> 00:39:08.380 A:middle L:90%
take this logic to its conclusion, right, you

747
00:39:08.380 --> 00:39:12.760 A:middle L:90%
end up getting on the one hand universities of Phoenix

748
00:39:12.769 --> 00:39:15.449 A:middle L:90%
and all these kind of credentials mills as they've been

749
00:39:15.449 --> 00:39:19.070 A:middle L:90%
called diploma mills, which are basically in the teaching

750
00:39:19.070 --> 00:39:22.949 A:middle L:90%
business, aiming to certain kinds of demand niches.

751
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:24.260 A:middle L:90%
Right. On the other hand, you get the

752
00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:29.269 A:middle L:90%
science parks right, which are often on university campuses

753
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.869 A:middle L:90%
but are pretty much operating on the behest of corporate

754
00:39:31.869 --> 00:39:35.340 A:middle L:90%
investors and other people like that. And there's no

755
00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:37.440 A:middle L:90%
guarantee whatsoever that whatever is produced in that environment is

756
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:39.010 A:middle L:90%
going to be made part of the public good of

757
00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:43.989 A:middle L:90%
knowledge. So this desegregation of the university that we're

758
00:39:43.989 --> 00:39:46.949 A:middle L:90%
seeing at an institutional level is one of the hallmarks

759
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.630 A:middle L:90%
of this kind of post Cold War period that we

760
00:39:50.630 --> 00:39:54.360 A:middle L:90%
live in and is, in fact very much encouraged

761
00:39:54.369 --> 00:39:58.750 A:middle L:90%
and encouraged, not just by nefarious factors, but

762
00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:00.260 A:middle L:90%
I think actually encouraged by even some of the good

763
00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:02.889 A:middle L:90%
guys, I mean, so it's generally encouraged thing

764
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.280 A:middle L:90%
. And so social epistemology, if it's really concerned

765
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.530 A:middle L:90%
with knowledge, is a public good understood as some

766
00:40:09.530 --> 00:40:14.019 A:middle L:90%
kind of universal, comprehensive understanding of reality that is

767
00:40:14.019 --> 00:40:16.469 A:middle L:90%
, in principle, something that everyone who considers themselves

768
00:40:16.469 --> 00:40:19.539 A:middle L:90%
a human being ought to be entitled to. We

769
00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:23.190 A:middle L:90%
have our work cut out, okay, Because the

770
00:40:23.190 --> 00:40:27.420 A:middle L:90%
university is from our standpoint, if we're social epistemology

771
00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:31.570 A:middle L:90%
disintegrating before our eyes. Okay, um, and

772
00:40:31.570 --> 00:40:37.059 A:middle L:90%
I do think and and you know, so if

773
00:40:37.059 --> 00:40:37.869 A:middle L:90%
I if I may get a little bit practical here

774
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:40.329 A:middle L:90%
, Uh, and I was talking to Adam,

775
00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:44.130 A:middle L:90%
the driver, Adam Smith. I'm not the Economist

776
00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:45.980 A:middle L:90%
. We haven't gotten that bad in our neoliberal era

777
00:40:45.989 --> 00:40:47.969 A:middle L:90%
where we've reduced, uh, great economist drivers.

778
00:40:47.969 --> 00:40:52.280 A:middle L:90%
But but the 0.1 of the things that I was

779
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.030 A:middle L:90%
saying to him was that that the one thing that

780
00:40:55.030 --> 00:40:57.690 A:middle L:90%
we ought to keep you know, if we if

781
00:40:57.690 --> 00:41:00.500 A:middle L:90%
we want to reverse the situation, one of the

782
00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:06.260 A:middle L:90%
things that we should do is to actually encourage intelligent

783
00:41:06.269 --> 00:41:08.429 A:middle L:90%
, academically committed people who understand what the nature of

784
00:41:08.429 --> 00:41:15.329 A:middle L:90%
the university is to go into administration to become administrators

785
00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:17.909 A:middle L:90%
, the people responsible for the institution, because what

786
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:22.070 A:middle L:90%
we're because the real problem that I see and I

787
00:41:22.070 --> 00:41:24.219 A:middle L:90%
think this is really a problem with the younger generation

788
00:41:24.219 --> 00:41:27.130 A:middle L:90%
, to be perfectly honest, because the younger generation

789
00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:29.630 A:middle L:90%
basically the people who've lived with Thatcher and Reagan and

790
00:41:29.630 --> 00:41:30.719 A:middle L:90%
neoliberalism and all the rest of it, you know

791
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.539 A:middle L:90%
, and think that marks, you know, people

792
00:41:32.539 --> 00:41:35.500 A:middle L:90%
who think that Marxism is the Frankfurt school. I

793
00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.280 A:middle L:90%
laugh, right? I mean, you know,

794
00:41:37.289 --> 00:41:37.429 A:middle L:90%
because there's a sense in which, by the time

795
00:41:37.429 --> 00:41:39.239 A:middle L:90%
you get to the Frankfurt school has already failed.

796
00:41:39.309 --> 00:41:43.530 A:middle L:90%
I mean, right, Frankfurt school is Marxism for

797
00:41:43.530 --> 00:41:44.949 A:middle L:90%
losers. I mean, I think that's the way

798
00:41:44.949 --> 00:41:46.429 A:middle L:90%
to put it. Um, but the point is

799
00:41:46.429 --> 00:41:50.880 A:middle L:90%
that for people who have only lived right during this

800
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.329 A:middle L:90%
period from the late night from the 19 eighties onward

801
00:41:52.349 --> 00:41:54.659 A:middle L:90%
, um, I think there is a sense in

802
00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:59.610 A:middle L:90%
which no one feels particular people. Younger people will

803
00:41:59.610 --> 00:42:01.050 A:middle L:90%
see this kind of neoliberal world, this free market

804
00:42:01.050 --> 00:42:04.940 A:middle L:90%
environment as a place where they can be very imaginative

805
00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:06.539 A:middle L:90%
, very creative. They can do lots of things

806
00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:07.570 A:middle L:90%
for themselves. They can hook up with all kinds

807
00:42:07.570 --> 00:42:10.440 A:middle L:90%
of interesting people they might not otherwise do. But

808
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:14.079 A:middle L:90%
there is no kind of commitment to long term projects

809
00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:17.760 A:middle L:90%
, let alone institution building. Okay, but this

810
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:22.480 A:middle L:90%
whole idea of knowledge that that social epistemology, at

811
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.590 A:middle L:90%
least in my conception, has been defending and which

812
00:42:23.590 --> 00:42:28.570 A:middle L:90%
I share with the philosophical tradition, um, is

813
00:42:28.570 --> 00:42:31.469 A:middle L:90%
at risk is very much at risk under these circumstances

814
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:34.219 A:middle L:90%
. Because where are you going to get the next

815
00:42:34.219 --> 00:42:36.699 A:middle L:90%
generation of people who are going to try to put

816
00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:39.440 A:middle L:90%
forward a vision of a university? That doesn't sound

817
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:42.809 A:middle L:90%
just like 1/19 century version of the university. And

818
00:42:42.809 --> 00:42:45.010 A:middle L:90%
this is the problem, right? So all those

819
00:42:45.010 --> 00:42:49.260 A:middle L:90%
old fusty humanists who bemoan everything that I'm talking about

820
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:51.789 A:middle L:90%
now, right? Those guys are lethal from a

821
00:42:51.789 --> 00:42:52.989 A:middle L:90%
public relations standpoint, no doubt about it, cause

822
00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:55.380 A:middle L:90%
you all know the English teachers, all these people

823
00:42:55.389 --> 00:42:58.210 A:middle L:90%
, right? I'm no disrespected, Jim. Of

824
00:42:58.210 --> 00:43:00.320 A:middle L:90%
course, But But you know, all these people

825
00:43:00.329 --> 00:43:04.360 A:middle L:90%
who you know who who sort of say, Matthew

826
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.260 A:middle L:90%
Arnold. And, you know, they start conjuring

827
00:43:06.260 --> 00:43:08.739 A:middle L:90%
up all these kind of 19th century models of what

828
00:43:08.739 --> 00:43:10.309 A:middle L:90%
a real university ought to be like. And we're

829
00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:13.179 A:middle L:90%
not like that anymore. That's lethal, because we're

830
00:43:13.179 --> 00:43:15.599 A:middle L:90%
not going to go back to that period. Forget

831
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:19.050 A:middle L:90%
about it. What we need is actually a university

832
00:43:19.289 --> 00:43:23.239 A:middle L:90%
that actually reinvents the Humboldt Ian spirit of the unity

833
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.929 A:middle L:90%
of teaching and research. But for the 21st century

834
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:30.079 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, now in, uh, in this

835
00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:35.670 A:middle L:90%
keynote address I gave, um wrote rather, the

836
00:43:35.670 --> 00:43:37.329 A:middle L:90%
one I'm giving is now, um I talked about

837
00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:40.210 A:middle L:90%
the idea I talked about Go to write the great

838
00:43:40.219 --> 00:43:45.219 A:middle L:90%
German polymath, right, who lived before Humboldt but

839
00:43:45.219 --> 00:43:47.440 A:middle L:90%
nevertheless was kind of the model of the sort of

840
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:51.820 A:middle L:90%
person that humble thought the university ought to be producing

841
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:53.570 A:middle L:90%
. And this was a guy who studied many different

842
00:43:53.570 --> 00:43:59.329 A:middle L:90%
subjects and integrated them into his own being. And

843
00:43:59.329 --> 00:44:05.119 A:middle L:90%
so he then made these very original distinctive contributions in

844
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.940 A:middle L:90%
lots of areas, some regarded by history more,

845
00:44:07.949 --> 00:44:10.460 A:middle L:90%
more favorably than others, to be sure, but

846
00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:15.550 A:middle L:90%
never nevertheless, seeing that there was all this knowledge

847
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.070 A:middle L:90%
, it was all part of the legacy of humanity

848
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:20.800 A:middle L:90%
. And it was, in a sense, his

849
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:23.699 A:middle L:90%
job, his duty, you might say to actually

850
00:44:23.710 --> 00:44:27.989 A:middle L:90%
bring it into his person and then come up with

851
00:44:27.989 --> 00:44:31.849 A:middle L:90%
something new. Okay? And I think this and

852
00:44:31.849 --> 00:44:37.849 A:middle L:90%
so the idea here and you know, the when

853
00:44:37.849 --> 00:44:42.159 A:middle L:90%
when universities were thought of as relatively elite institutions where

854
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.219 A:middle L:90%
people didn't have to worry about jobs at the end

855
00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:45.139 A:middle L:90%
of the day because in some sense the job was

856
00:44:45.139 --> 00:44:47.230 A:middle L:90%
already there or they need to have a job.

857
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:50.809 A:middle L:90%
This was kind of easy idea to realize. I

858
00:44:50.809 --> 00:44:52.739 A:middle L:90%
realize now people are thinking of universities as places to

859
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:54.219 A:middle L:90%
get jobs from, and so this is kind of

860
00:44:54.219 --> 00:44:57.480 A:middle L:90%
a difficult story. And that's why there's always been

861
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.260 A:middle L:90%
this struggle in the history of the modern university between

862
00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:01.440 A:middle L:90%
education and liberal arts, which would give you the

863
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:05.010 A:middle L:90%
kind of girl to like figures and the more professional

864
00:45:05.010 --> 00:45:07.489 A:middle L:90%
, vocational Italian training right which might get you into

865
00:45:07.489 --> 00:45:10.260 A:middle L:90%
a job specifically. Okay, so clearly there was

866
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:13.719 A:middle L:90%
a sense in which the elite that kind of elitism

867
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:16.119 A:middle L:90%
is hanging over this idea. But the general principle

868
00:45:16.130 --> 00:45:19.340 A:middle L:90%
, it seems to me, is worth reinventing today

869
00:45:19.349 --> 00:45:22.929 A:middle L:90%
, especially in the current economic climate. Um,

870
00:45:22.929 --> 00:45:23.960 A:middle L:90%
and and the reason why I say that is because

871
00:45:23.969 --> 00:45:25.829 A:middle L:90%
, uh, we all know we live in this

872
00:45:25.829 --> 00:45:29.610 A:middle L:90%
capitalist culture and everybody's bemoaning it, you know,

873
00:45:29.610 --> 00:45:31.679 A:middle L:90%
And but this is a very distinctive kind of capitalist

874
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:34.400 A:middle L:90%
culture. Uh, we are, you know,

875
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.230 A:middle L:90%
any kind of, um, we're in a very

876
00:45:37.230 --> 00:45:39.869 A:middle L:90%
fluid capitalist culture. In other words, the issue

877
00:45:39.869 --> 00:45:44.539 A:middle L:90%
here is not simply that we are money or business

878
00:45:44.550 --> 00:45:46.280 A:middle L:90%
oriented. I think people who reduce the problem to

879
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:51.010 A:middle L:90%
this are just being very unsophisticated about what's happening today

880
00:45:51.389 --> 00:45:53.039 A:middle L:90%
. This is not rather what we're living in a

881
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.750 A:middle L:90%
period where, frankly, if you're smart, you

882
00:45:55.750 --> 00:46:00.420 A:middle L:90%
realize that there is no particular set of skills given

883
00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:02.940 A:middle L:90%
your capacities that can ensure you will get a job

884
00:46:02.949 --> 00:46:05.510 A:middle L:90%
at the end of your degree. That will last

885
00:46:05.510 --> 00:46:08.199 A:middle L:90%
until you retire. Okay, so in other words

886
00:46:08.210 --> 00:46:10.710 A:middle L:90%
, we are living in a period where the idea

887
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:14.539 A:middle L:90%
of getting a degree to get a career so that

888
00:46:14.550 --> 00:46:16.130 A:middle L:90%
the job you begin in is the job you end

889
00:46:16.130 --> 00:46:21.809 A:middle L:90%
in at 65. That is history. We live

890
00:46:21.809 --> 00:46:23.590 A:middle L:90%
in a very fluid, fluctuating capitalism, So the

891
00:46:23.590 --> 00:46:28.320 A:middle L:90%
idea of having a specific set of skills can almost

892
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:30.130 A:middle L:90%
give you five years. And then what happens?

893
00:46:30.139 --> 00:46:35.659 A:middle L:90%
You'll go on the treadmill of lifelong learning, continuing

894
00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:38.809 A:middle L:90%
education, right. And hopefully this will be turned

895
00:46:38.809 --> 00:46:42.300 A:middle L:90%
into some sort of, you know, genetic therapy

896
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:44.269 A:middle L:90%
after a while, so we can eliminate a lot

897
00:46:44.269 --> 00:46:46.409 A:middle L:90%
of the middlemen from this. Okay, but that's

898
00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:51.400 A:middle L:90%
that's where that goes, right? And so what

899
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:53.079 A:middle L:90%
you need if you actually want to survive in this

900
00:46:53.090 --> 00:46:58.710 A:middle L:90%
highly fluctuating capitalist culture is you need to develop more

901
00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.079 A:middle L:90%
substantial capacities that will remain relevant even as you go

902
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:07.489 A:middle L:90%
through one job after another. And so, in

903
00:47:07.489 --> 00:47:07.829 A:middle L:90%
a sense, if we can, if we can

904
00:47:07.829 --> 00:47:12.239 A:middle L:90%
start thinking interestingly and get interesting people involved in stuff

905
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.420 A:middle L:90%
like critical thinking, right, you know, or

906
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:20.369 A:middle L:90%
even technical writing, Jim shouldn't be the only interesting

907
00:47:20.369 --> 00:47:22.079 A:middle L:90%
person involved in this, right? In other words

908
00:47:22.090 --> 00:47:27.289 A:middle L:90%
, those sorts of areas are the areas that are

909
00:47:27.289 --> 00:47:30.210 A:middle L:90%
likely to sustain you through your entire life in terms

910
00:47:30.210 --> 00:47:34.539 A:middle L:90%
of skills and so forth. Okay. And it's

911
00:47:34.539 --> 00:47:38.039 A:middle L:90%
through this that you can start to begin to develop

912
00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:42.070 A:middle L:90%
a new conception of liberal arts. Okay, taking

913
00:47:42.070 --> 00:47:45.059 A:middle L:90%
advantage of the fact that anyone who says, Hey

914
00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.730 A:middle L:90%
, I'm taking this degree because it will get me

915
00:47:45.730 --> 00:47:47.309 A:middle L:90%
a job and you say Yeah, and you'll be

916
00:47:47.309 --> 00:47:50.590 A:middle L:90%
unemployed in three years if you look at the statistics

917
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:53.849 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, I think this is a very important

918
00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:58.159 A:middle L:90%
because and this is not an issue against business per

919
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:01.190 A:middle L:90%
se. It is an issue about the nature of

920
00:48:01.190 --> 00:48:04.340 A:middle L:90%
the kind of capitalist culture that we live in now

921
00:48:04.349 --> 00:48:07.639 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, Um, and I think people often

922
00:48:07.650 --> 00:48:10.219 A:middle L:90%
, and so these old fashioned ideas that you know

923
00:48:10.230 --> 00:48:13.989 A:middle L:90%
, it's either we're talking about business or we're talking

924
00:48:13.989 --> 00:48:15.409 A:middle L:90%
about knowledge for its own sake. I don't think

925
00:48:15.409 --> 00:48:16.739 A:middle L:90%
this is really quite what's at play here. It's

926
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:20.199 A:middle L:90%
a different ballgame, okay, But it's one where

927
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.090 A:middle L:90%
I think people who want to reassert traditional academic values

928
00:48:23.469 --> 00:48:27.380 A:middle L:90%
can really play a very, very substantial role in

929
00:48:27.380 --> 00:48:30.460 A:middle L:90%
training the person. Okay, and let me just

930
00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:31.170 A:middle L:90%
say one more thing, because then I'll open it

931
00:48:31.170 --> 00:48:32.969 A:middle L:90%
up to questions, um, to go back to

932
00:48:32.969 --> 00:48:36.030 A:middle L:90%
this business of the trans humanism stuff that I've been

933
00:48:36.030 --> 00:48:38.789 A:middle L:90%
working on recently. Um, one of the things

934
00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:42.230 A:middle L:90%
that's very striking about all these people who talk about

935
00:48:42.230 --> 00:48:43.889 A:middle L:90%
the future and saying, You know, we're heading

936
00:48:43.889 --> 00:48:45.530 A:middle L:90%
into this humanity two point Oh, and all the

937
00:48:45.530 --> 00:48:47.110 A:middle L:90%
rest of it, uh, is that these people

938
00:48:47.110 --> 00:48:51.719 A:middle L:90%
have no conception of the unified person. There's no

939
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:54.309 A:middle L:90%
sense of this kind of self that somebody like Humboldt

940
00:48:54.309 --> 00:48:57.670 A:middle L:90%
, eager to, would be very much concerned about

941
00:48:57.670 --> 00:49:00.190 A:middle L:90%
what the university's liberal arts curriculum was traditionally involved in

942
00:49:00.769 --> 00:49:04.070 A:middle L:90%
Right. Rather, what the trans humanists are primarily

943
00:49:04.070 --> 00:49:09.429 A:middle L:90%
concerned about is extending people's abilities along certain dimensions that

944
00:49:09.429 --> 00:49:13.150 A:middle L:90%
are considered to be valuable, for whatever reason,

945
00:49:13.329 --> 00:49:15.630 A:middle L:90%
right? So even if you look at somebody like

946
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:17.190 A:middle L:90%
Ray Kurtz file with regard to the pursuit of the

947
00:49:17.190 --> 00:49:20.739 A:middle L:90%
singularity, what are we talking about? At the

948
00:49:20.739 --> 00:49:22.789 A:middle L:90%
end of the day, we're talking about computational powers

949
00:49:22.789 --> 00:49:27.550 A:middle L:90%
King, right? That basically, you know,

950
00:49:27.550 --> 00:49:29.480 A:middle L:90%
if we get to a you know, if we

951
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:32.190 A:middle L:90%
develop machines that can out compute us in some way

952
00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:34.780 A:middle L:90%
, then we ought to become part of them.

953
00:49:34.789 --> 00:49:37.159 A:middle L:90%
And that's then the next stage of human evolution.

954
00:49:37.170 --> 00:49:39.199 A:middle L:90%
End of story. So in other words, we're

955
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:44.570 A:middle L:90%
taking one dimension of the human being. And it's

956
00:49:44.570 --> 00:49:45.699 A:middle L:90%
not just that dimension. Trans humanists have their own

957
00:49:45.789 --> 00:49:49.559 A:middle L:90%
. Lots of them have different favorite dimensions, and

958
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.369 A:middle L:90%
they project them indefinitely. And of course, there

959
00:49:51.369 --> 00:49:52.500 A:middle L:90%
are lots of ways of projecting these things indefinitely.

960
00:49:52.869 --> 00:49:54.079 A:middle L:90%
But what you don't get at the end of the

961
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:58.030 A:middle L:90%
day is any kind of sense of a new,

962
00:49:58.039 --> 00:50:00.179 A:middle L:90%
unified person. Now, I think one of the

963
00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:02.639 A:middle L:90%
reasons why this has not been noticed more widely is

964
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:05.809 A:middle L:90%
of course, we live in the postmodern condition.

965
00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:07.400 A:middle L:90%
And of course we don't believe in unified Selves and

966
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:09.349 A:middle L:90%
all of this, and so this keeps the door

967
00:50:09.349 --> 00:50:13.409 A:middle L:90%
wide open for all of this trans humanist stuff to

968
00:50:13.409 --> 00:50:16.300 A:middle L:90%
kind of have fair play. Okay, because we

969
00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:19.170 A:middle L:90%
, in a sense, have not come back to

970
00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:21.619 A:middle L:90%
the idea which was very central to the idea of

971
00:50:21.619 --> 00:50:23.429 A:middle L:90%
modernity and very much central to what the modern university

972
00:50:23.429 --> 00:50:29.019 A:middle L:90%
about which was the training of the person Autonomous agent

973
00:50:29.030 --> 00:50:30.889 A:middle L:90%
, right, who is more than just the sum

974
00:50:30.889 --> 00:50:35.190 A:middle L:90%
of the jobs or some or some of the experiences

975
00:50:35.260 --> 00:50:37.829 A:middle L:90%
or the some of the relations that the person has

976
00:50:38.059 --> 00:50:40.610 A:middle L:90%
? Okay. And this is the thing that,

977
00:50:40.610 --> 00:50:43.420 A:middle L:90%
in a sense, that we really do need to

978
00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:45.710 A:middle L:90%
recover, and in a sense, social epistemology is

979
00:50:45.710 --> 00:50:49.170 A:middle L:90%
very much about that. And so while it is

980
00:50:49.170 --> 00:50:52.090 A:middle L:90%
very important to take on board all of the economic

981
00:50:52.090 --> 00:50:55.699 A:middle L:90%
and social and historical and whatever changes have taken place

982
00:50:55.699 --> 00:51:00.579 A:middle L:90%
over 25 years, there is still this basic point

983
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:02.420 A:middle L:90%
that needs to be pursued. It seems to me

984
00:51:02.420 --> 00:51:06.969 A:middle L:90%
from the normative standpoint of social epistemology, and it

985
00:51:06.969 --> 00:51:09.860 A:middle L:90%
may really just boil down to getting people to be

986
00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:13.260 A:middle L:90%
able to come up with a kind of coherent notion

987
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:15.949 A:middle L:90%
of the South that enables them to be autonomous in

988
00:51:15.949 --> 00:51:21.000 A:middle L:90%
a world that is subject to constant flux where there's

989
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:23.190 A:middle L:90%
very little incentive for people to think that way.

990
00:51:24.460 --> 00:51:27.769 A:middle L:90%
Right? And I'll stop there and open it up

991
00:51:27.769 --> 00:51:36.050 A:middle L:90%
to discussion. Thank you. So how do you

992
00:51:36.050 --> 00:51:37.179 A:middle L:90%
want to or in terms of so people can be

993
00:51:37.179 --> 00:51:39.380 A:middle L:90%
heard? How? How does that work? You

994
00:51:39.380 --> 00:51:40.800 A:middle L:90%
have the microphone. Okay, So people want to

995
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:47.210 A:middle L:90%
speak. Here's the microphone. Maybe you shouldn't.

996
00:51:47.300 --> 00:51:49.829 A:middle L:90%
People might not be able to see you say who

997
00:51:49.829 --> 00:51:52.489 A:middle L:90%
you are. I am very Downey. Um,

998
00:51:57.260 --> 00:52:01.269 A:middle L:90%
this is the president of Forest we're talking to here

999
00:52:01.650 --> 00:52:05.860 A:middle L:90%
. As always, it's joyful to listen to read

1000
00:52:07.650 --> 00:52:10.050 A:middle L:90%
half a dozen questions, but I'm trying to sort

1001
00:52:10.050 --> 00:52:15.409 A:middle L:90%
them out. I think reduce them to one has

1002
00:52:15.409 --> 00:52:21.679 A:middle L:90%
to do with the because the linear model, a

1003
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:28.409 A:middle L:90%
dominant model of knowledge creation, diffusion utilization. I've

1004
00:52:28.420 --> 00:52:30.769 A:middle L:90%
been frustrated myself in SCS with the fact that,

1005
00:52:31.449 --> 00:52:36.710 A:middle L:90%
in a way, STS developed gain legitimacy by critiquing

1006
00:52:36.710 --> 00:52:40.739 A:middle L:90%
linear model and knowledge production and then in its actual

1007
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:47.170 A:middle L:90%
practice, performing exactly that what's celebrated at annual meetings

1008
00:52:47.179 --> 00:52:52.280 A:middle L:90%
we celebrate books and celebrate particles. We hide all

1009
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:58.769 A:middle L:90%
of these other practices that involved um, such things

1010
00:52:58.769 --> 00:53:05.250 A:middle L:90%
as whispering in the year Minister a number of ways

1011
00:53:05.250 --> 00:53:10.789 A:middle L:90%
you spoke toward alluded to describe practices, things that

1012
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.530 A:middle L:90%
we need to do beyond in a way formulating ideas

1013
00:53:15.530 --> 00:53:20.929 A:middle L:90%
that we hope will scale up. So my first

1014
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:24.980 A:middle L:90%
question is about social epistemology and the linear model.

1015
00:53:25.650 --> 00:53:31.360 A:middle L:90%
How can the the future future fundamentals of social technology

1016
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:37.059 A:middle L:90%
include practices that go beyond reproducing the linear model?

1017
00:53:37.070 --> 00:53:39.840 A:middle L:90%
Or and this is already I just heard about a

1018
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:43.639 A:middle L:90%
book series. I'm curious about that. The second

1019
00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:45.590 A:middle L:90%
question. Then I'll require it has to do with

1020
00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:47.570 A:middle L:90%
the university as you presented it, and the call

1021
00:53:47.570 --> 00:53:52.260 A:middle L:90%
for unity, unity, reinventing Hamilton Spirit of Unity

1022
00:53:53.949 --> 00:53:58.500 A:middle L:90%
. Is it fair to claim that the university ever

1023
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:02.050 A:middle L:90%
was unified, even if it was the case that

1024
00:54:02.059 --> 00:54:07.929 A:middle L:90%
in every sector of the university scholars were operating with

1025
00:54:07.929 --> 00:54:13.300 A:middle L:90%
an image or a desire to achieve might have been

1026
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:20.420 A:middle L:90%
at the university has always been, in a way

1027
00:54:20.429 --> 00:54:23.849 A:middle L:90%
, a collection the diverse collection of Let us Say

1028
00:54:24.739 --> 00:54:30.239 A:middle L:90%
, the epistemological cultural and archaeological projects, each of

1029
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:35.800 A:middle L:90%
which having a constituency or constituencies outside the university in

1030
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:40.039 A:middle L:90%
which the competition can be about being conceptualized competition to

1031
00:54:40.050 --> 00:54:45.650 A:middle L:90%
to articulate the kind of unity that you're calling for

1032
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:51.159 A:middle L:90%
are asking social technology to be you re imagined.

1033
00:54:51.539 --> 00:54:54.679 A:middle L:90%
in the midst of that was the competition was actually

1034
00:54:54.690 --> 00:54:58.199 A:middle L:90%
involved, maybe more importantly, or at least at

1035
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:01.469 A:middle L:90%
the same time, involved competitions to make a difference

1036
00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:05.539 A:middle L:90%
beyond the boundaries of the universe. In other words

1037
00:55:05.539 --> 00:55:09.739 A:middle L:90%
, the university always was disaggregated. And from that

1038
00:55:09.739 --> 00:55:13.820 A:middle L:90%
point of view, then the challenges of the last

1039
00:55:13.829 --> 00:55:17.690 A:middle L:90%
25 30 years or not about the challenges of disaggregated

1040
00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:23.050 A:middle L:90%
per se but of a particular kind of are scaling

1041
00:55:23.050 --> 00:55:27.780 A:middle L:90%
up of a new kind of dominance or a disproportionate

1042
00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:31.369 A:middle L:90%
attention to, um, what's called New York Tokyo

1043
00:55:31.369 --> 00:55:37.250 A:middle L:90%
literalist objectives. So two questions. One ambassador epistemology

1044
00:55:37.250 --> 00:55:39.099 A:middle L:90%
and linear model. Exactly. One about one of

1045
00:55:39.110 --> 00:55:44.570 A:middle L:90%
the university never works. All right? Okay.

1046
00:55:44.579 --> 00:55:49.409 A:middle L:90%
Case and social epistemology and trying to re articulate and

1047
00:55:49.420 --> 00:55:53.010 A:middle L:90%
an image of the unified human both kind of missing

1048
00:55:53.010 --> 00:55:58.159 A:middle L:90%
the point and yet reproducing the linear model over.

1049
00:55:58.539 --> 00:56:00.940 A:middle L:90%
Okay, I think the business about the university being

1050
00:56:00.940 --> 00:56:05.659 A:middle L:90%
dis unified, um, in a sense, is

1051
00:56:06.230 --> 00:56:08.489 A:middle L:90%
kind of been there certain. Well, maybe even

1052
00:56:08.489 --> 00:56:09.909 A:middle L:90%
from the beginning of the university. I mean,

1053
00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:15.269 A:middle L:90%
in fact, Humboldt's conception of the university as this

1054
00:56:15.269 --> 00:56:19.869 A:middle L:90%
kind of unifying institution where philosophy would play the important

1055
00:56:19.869 --> 00:56:22.760 A:middle L:90%
role as the unifier of all knowledge, right?

1056
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:23.690 A:middle L:90%
If you think about the idea of tradition, right

1057
00:56:23.690 --> 00:56:27.030 A:middle L:90%
was largely made in response to, you know,

1058
00:56:27.030 --> 00:56:29.239 A:middle L:90%
Kant wrote this famous essay towards, you know,

1059
00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:30.969 A:middle L:90%
the contest of the faculties. Right? So if

1060
00:56:30.969 --> 00:56:32.090 A:middle L:90%
you go back to the late 18th century, you

1061
00:56:32.090 --> 00:56:36.320 A:middle L:90%
have theology and medicine, right? Uh, and

1062
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.119 A:middle L:90%
law all saying they're the top dogs. They're the

1063
00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:39.750 A:middle L:90%
ones that should be running things. All the rest

1064
00:56:39.750 --> 00:56:44.349 A:middle L:90%
of it. Um, and, you know,

1065
00:56:44.349 --> 00:56:46.920 A:middle L:90%
cons view was that lost in this kind of internecine

1066
00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:51.150 A:middle L:90%
strife was the potential power that the university could have

1067
00:56:51.150 --> 00:56:53.239 A:middle L:90%
as a leader of society if it actually had some

1068
00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:57.639 A:middle L:90%
kind of organizational principle behind it. And this,

1069
00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:00.760 A:middle L:90%
then, is what inspired Humboldt to come up with

1070
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:02.659 A:middle L:90%
the idea of philosophy as the organizing principle. And

1071
00:57:02.659 --> 00:57:06.070 A:middle L:90%
if you see the history of German idealism fixed a

1072
00:57:06.070 --> 00:57:08.409 A:middle L:90%
shelling, Hagel all these people and well, not

1073
00:57:08.409 --> 00:57:10.289 A:middle L:90%
just no, but but but But the point is

1074
00:57:10.289 --> 00:57:13.650 A:middle L:90%
, I mean, even the logical positivism as well

1075
00:57:13.650 --> 00:57:14.739 A:middle L:90%
, right? I mean, if you go into

1076
00:57:14.739 --> 00:57:16.820 A:middle L:90%
the 20th century as well the whole idea of philosophy

1077
00:57:16.820 --> 00:57:20.809 A:middle L:90%
as the unifier of knowledge, right? And what

1078
00:57:20.809 --> 00:57:22.989 A:middle L:90%
was the value of that? Well, the value

1079
00:57:22.989 --> 00:57:24.530 A:middle L:90%
was. Organization provides you a certain kind of strength

1080
00:57:24.530 --> 00:57:28.300 A:middle L:90%
, a certain kind of power so that when academic

1081
00:57:28.300 --> 00:57:31.579 A:middle L:90%
knowledge actually dealt with society and there was nobody saying

1082
00:57:31.579 --> 00:57:35.329 A:middle L:90%
that academic knowledge should deal with society, it should

1083
00:57:35.329 --> 00:57:37.250 A:middle L:90%
deal with it on its own terms, not just

1084
00:57:37.250 --> 00:57:39.449 A:middle L:90%
as a servant, but it should be leading,

1085
00:57:39.460 --> 00:57:44.510 A:middle L:90%
not just simply following. Okay, Um and and

1086
00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:45.369 A:middle L:90%
because if you look at the kind of contest the

1087
00:57:45.369 --> 00:57:49.369 A:middle L:90%
faculties that existed right in the period that count was

1088
00:57:49.369 --> 00:57:52.260 A:middle L:90%
writing, these were all faculties that obviously had very

1089
00:57:52.260 --> 00:57:54.739 A:middle L:90%
important kind of strongholds within the society at large legal

1090
00:57:54.739 --> 00:57:59.389 A:middle L:90%
profession, the medical profession, the church, right

1091
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:00.360 A:middle L:90%
, and and And, you know, the point

1092
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.199 A:middle L:90%
of contact Humboldt was the university has to stand up

1093
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:05.860 A:middle L:90%
for itself. And what does it stand up for

1094
00:58:05.869 --> 00:58:07.269 A:middle L:90%
? It stands up for knowledge, understood as some

1095
00:58:07.269 --> 00:58:10.670 A:middle L:90%
kind of universal human empowering thing. But the only

1096
00:58:10.670 --> 00:58:14.090 A:middle L:90%
way you can do that is if it organizes itself

1097
00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:16.219 A:middle L:90%
and it retains its own sense of autonomy. And

1098
00:58:16.219 --> 00:58:20.250 A:middle L:90%
the idea of academic freedom which comes from this tradition

1099
00:58:20.260 --> 00:58:22.449 A:middle L:90%
, was built on the back of that. So

1100
00:58:22.449 --> 00:58:24.070 A:middle L:90%
the point here was you're absolutely right. The university

1101
00:58:24.070 --> 00:58:27.610 A:middle L:90%
has always been dis unified thing. That's why you

1102
00:58:27.610 --> 00:58:30.519 A:middle L:90%
actually need to have movements to unify the university and

1103
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:32.550 A:middle L:90%
to enforce that. And that's one of the reasons

1104
00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:36.239 A:middle L:90%
why I say that we continue to need to have

1105
00:58:36.250 --> 00:58:38.550 A:middle L:90%
administrators with vision who are willing to push the project

1106
00:58:38.550 --> 00:58:49.469 A:middle L:90%
forward. Please don't hear me. Are you rather

1107
00:58:49.469 --> 00:58:59.750 A:middle L:90%
margin remote? Yeah. Order in a way.

1108
00:59:00.219 --> 00:59:02.250 A:middle L:90%
Embedded in the question is, Are you for the

1109
00:59:02.260 --> 00:59:13.590 A:middle L:90%
value? Has actual reforms that actually takes I'll tell

1110
00:59:13.590 --> 00:59:15.889 A:middle L:90%
you the way. The best way to interpret what

1111
00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:19.150 A:middle L:90%
you're saying childhood standpoint. Okay, So taking you

1112
00:59:19.150 --> 00:59:21.530 A:middle L:90%
at face value what you're saying I do think it's

1113
00:59:21.530 --> 00:59:23.019 A:middle L:90%
fair to say, especially in the United States,

1114
00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:25.610 A:middle L:90%
which I would say for those of you who don't

1115
00:59:25.610 --> 00:59:28.789 A:middle L:90%
realize that the Americans probably don't realize this. But

1116
00:59:28.789 --> 00:59:30.599 A:middle L:90%
everybody else around the world probably realize that America has

1117
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:36.920 A:middle L:90%
the best track record of visionary academic leaders in terms

1118
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.679 A:middle L:90%
of university presidents who write books and big ideas,

1119
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:43.059 A:middle L:90%
influence society and so forth. It's been the United

1120
00:59:43.059 --> 00:59:44.769 A:middle L:90%
States because the United States, in the way it

1121
00:59:44.769 --> 00:59:46.489 A:middle L:90%
has really taken up the humble thing much more than

1122
00:59:46.489 --> 00:59:49.179 A:middle L:90%
it was ever taken up in Europe, where became

1123
00:59:49.179 --> 00:59:52.210 A:middle L:90%
very quickly dominated by state bureaucracies. Okay, so

1124
00:59:52.210 --> 00:59:52.579 A:middle L:90%
I think that's an important point. Now, if

1125
00:59:52.579 --> 00:59:54.309 A:middle L:90%
you look at a lot of these university president of

1126
00:59:54.309 --> 00:59:55.730 A:middle L:90%
the United States and let's say, in the 20th

1127
00:59:55.730 --> 00:59:59.130 A:middle L:90%
century, James Bryan coded, you know, at

1128
00:59:59.130 --> 01:00:00.369 A:middle L:90%
Harvard, we have Robert Maynard Hutchins at the University

1129
01:00:00.369 --> 01:00:04.119 A:middle L:90%
of Chicago. These are guys with very different normative

1130
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:07.360 A:middle L:90%
visions. Okay, very different normative visions, but

1131
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:09.710 A:middle L:90%
nevertheless defending a very coherent notion of university under those

1132
01:00:09.710 --> 01:00:12.960 A:middle L:90%
different visions. So I'm agreeing with. So there

1133
01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:14.949 A:middle L:90%
is an example. There is an example. There's

1134
01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:16.780 A:middle L:90%
examples from history to justify what you're saying. I

1135
01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:22.389 A:middle L:90%
do not think the present climate actually fosters this kind

1136
01:00:22.389 --> 01:00:23.980 A:middle L:90%
of normative plurality, but you're absolutely right. In

1137
01:00:23.980 --> 01:00:27.429 A:middle L:90%
20th century in the United States, you can find

1138
01:00:27.429 --> 01:00:31.039 A:middle L:90%
visionary university presidents presenting alternative visions of the university all

1139
01:00:31.050 --> 01:00:35.239 A:middle L:90%
about the autonomy of the university. That's all true

1140
01:00:35.710 --> 01:00:37.949 A:middle L:90%
, but I don't think we're in a climate that

1141
01:00:37.949 --> 01:00:39.289 A:middle L:90%
actually allows that to happen very easily. I'm arguing

1142
01:00:39.289 --> 01:00:46.260 A:middle L:90%
that disciplines always happen. Mhm separate disciplines have justifying

1143
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:52.710 A:middle L:90%
themselves, have made qualitatively different kinds of claims and

1144
01:00:52.710 --> 01:00:54.920 A:middle L:90%
have qualitatively different kinds of. This is where universities

1145
01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:57.650 A:middle L:90%
are important, right, And this is where something

1146
01:00:57.650 --> 01:01:00.000 A:middle L:90%
like liberal arts curriculum are very important because one of

1147
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.139 A:middle L:90%
the things that the idea of having a common curriculum

1148
01:01:02.510 --> 01:01:05.789 A:middle L:90%
right that everybody, regardless of their major has to

1149
01:01:05.789 --> 01:01:07.230 A:middle L:90%
pursue, is it forces you to think at a

1150
01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:12.510 A:middle L:90%
very fundamental level about what knowledge worth having. Even

1151
01:01:12.510 --> 01:01:14.719 A:middle L:90%
if you're not a specialist, right? What is

1152
01:01:14.730 --> 01:01:16.880 A:middle L:90%
knowledge worth having just being a citizen or a human

1153
01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:20.730 A:middle L:90%
being or something like this? And and so it

1154
01:01:20.730 --> 01:01:22.639 A:middle L:90%
seems to be it's at the liberal. You know

1155
01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:23.699 A:middle L:90%
, you look at the liberal arts curriculum at the

1156
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:25.260 A:middle L:90%
university that gives you a sense of the soul of

1157
01:01:25.260 --> 01:01:28.530 A:middle L:90%
the university. Okay, of course, when we're

1158
01:01:28.530 --> 01:01:31.489 A:middle L:90%
talking about majors, different disciplines will justify the fact

1159
01:01:31.489 --> 01:01:34.179 A:middle L:90%
that you should be majoring in them in different ways

1160
01:01:34.179 --> 01:01:36.170 A:middle L:90%
because they offer different skills and all that. But

1161
01:01:36.170 --> 01:01:37.829 A:middle L:90%
the point is, if you have a common curriculum

1162
01:01:37.510 --> 01:01:39.050 A:middle L:90%
and this is what the great thing about the United

1163
01:01:39.050 --> 01:01:43.019 A:middle L:90%
States is again different from Europe is that people only

1164
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:44.929 A:middle L:90%
specialized right at the end of the second year,

1165
01:01:45.309 --> 01:01:49.920 A:middle L:90%
right? People can change their majors in Europe.

1166
01:01:49.929 --> 01:01:53.929 A:middle L:90%
You come in having taken exams, right? You

1167
01:01:53.929 --> 01:01:57.619 A:middle L:90%
come in specialized. You don't actually have the liberal

1168
01:01:57.619 --> 01:02:00.059 A:middle L:90%
arts moment that you have in the United States.

1169
01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:02.340 A:middle L:90%
Okay, um and in a sense, what I'm

1170
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:06.480 A:middle L:90%
trying to do here is to get people to not

1171
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:07.219 A:middle L:90%
take this regretted. This is, in fact,

1172
01:02:07.219 --> 01:02:09.489 A:middle L:90%
where the soul of the university is. Isn't this

1173
01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:12.920 A:middle L:90%
kind of process? Okay, It's not about,

1174
01:02:12.929 --> 01:02:15.739 A:middle L:90%
Of course, different disciplines justify themselves different. The

1175
01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:17.670 A:middle L:90%
question is, what's the university's attitude toward that fact

1176
01:02:17.670 --> 01:02:20.519 A:middle L:90%
? What does the university do with that fact?

1177
01:02:20.900 --> 01:02:22.050 A:middle L:90%
And the whole idea of having a common curriculum is

1178
01:02:22.050 --> 01:02:23.809 A:middle L:90%
to put those disciplines in the room and say,

1179
01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:27.230 A:middle L:90%
Okay, how do we fit this all together?

1180
01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:30.570 A:middle L:90%
Because we all believe you're producing valuable knowledge. But

1181
01:02:30.570 --> 01:02:31.840 A:middle L:90%
how does it all fit into a curriculum that you'd

1182
01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:35.860 A:middle L:90%
want anyone, even somebody not specialising in your field

1183
01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:37.679 A:middle L:90%
to take forward? And that's where I think the

1184
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:39.480 A:middle L:90%
issue of the university life. Because if you just

1185
01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:43.489 A:middle L:90%
talk about disciplines, disciplines, pursuing your own stuff

1186
01:02:43.489 --> 01:02:46.590 A:middle L:90%
that don't really require university, a discipline could exist

1187
01:02:46.590 --> 01:02:51.730 A:middle L:90%
by itself without a university, I don't agree,

1188
01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:57.559 A:middle L:90%
but Syria. Hi. Uh, introduce yourself.

1189
01:02:57.570 --> 01:03:00.050 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. My name is David Peterson. I'm from

1190
01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:01.300 A:middle L:90%
University of Copenhagen. Actually, I guess one of

1191
01:03:01.300 --> 01:03:06.840 A:middle L:90%
the rare socialist apologists that has been working for a

1192
01:03:06.849 --> 01:03:08.530 A:middle L:90%
Danish government and also part of the European Commission for

1193
01:03:08.530 --> 01:03:12.429 A:middle L:90%
now, more than eight years. So I'm quite

1194
01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:15.250 A:middle L:90%
acquainted with the problems that you mentioned in your in

1195
01:03:15.250 --> 01:03:17.730 A:middle L:90%
your timely and inspiring talk. Steve and I wanted

1196
01:03:17.730 --> 01:03:20.469 A:middle L:90%
to push a little bit, I guess in the

1197
01:03:20.469 --> 01:03:22.880 A:middle L:90%
same direction as the former question, but but probably

1198
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.929 A:middle L:90%
on a putting emphasis on another part of what you

1199
01:03:25.929 --> 01:03:29.969 A:middle L:90%
said. So I was wondering and having observed myself

1200
01:03:29.980 --> 01:03:32.429 A:middle L:90%
working in, Let's say, European science policy circles

1201
01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:37.110 A:middle L:90%
that the kind of instrumentalists and constructed is stamps that

1202
01:03:37.110 --> 01:03:40.110 A:middle L:90%
are so pavilion in in STS studies has actually spilled

1203
01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:44.860 A:middle L:90%
over into policy making. So I would kind of

1204
01:03:44.860 --> 01:03:46.289 A:middle L:90%
try to push a little bit on the idea that

1205
01:03:46.300 --> 01:03:50.019 A:middle L:90%
the fact that we have such a, you know

1206
01:03:50.019 --> 01:03:54.019 A:middle L:90%
, strong view about the social plasticity of scientific institutions

1207
01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:58.070 A:middle L:90%
within STS has been a very timely kind of social

1208
01:03:58.070 --> 01:04:00.039 A:middle L:90%
technology for a lot of policymakers. So the fact

1209
01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:02.420 A:middle L:90%
that we go in deconstruct look at how things are

1210
01:04:02.420 --> 01:04:05.550 A:middle L:90%
so fluid as they are and like say, we

1211
01:04:05.550 --> 01:04:09.670 A:middle L:90%
can redesign these institutions without having to care much about

1212
01:04:09.670 --> 01:04:14.119 A:middle L:90%
ontology or like disciplinary knowledge production, because basically,

1213
01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:15.800 A:middle L:90%
in the end of the day, it's all just

1214
01:04:15.809 --> 01:04:18.630 A:middle L:90%
ideology or interest or power struggles or networks. I

1215
01:04:18.630 --> 01:04:20.940 A:middle L:90%
mean, those ideas are perfectly, you know,

1216
01:04:20.949 --> 01:04:26.039 A:middle L:90%
fitting into the current Let's say, imagine areas of

1217
01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:28.840 A:middle L:90%
techno scientific new liberalism. So in that sense,

1218
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:30.300 A:middle L:90%
I would say Yes. Of course, there is

1219
01:04:30.300 --> 01:04:32.219 A:middle L:90%
some degree of social plasticity and social. Let's say

1220
01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:35.940 A:middle L:90%
Constructivism, especially what returns to the social world.

1221
01:04:35.949 --> 01:04:39.309 A:middle L:90%
But I think it it has become kind of a

1222
01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:43.780 A:middle L:90%
perverse, you know, unintended consequence of Constructivism.

1223
01:04:43.809 --> 01:04:46.730 A:middle L:90%
Instrumental is that it leads to those policy frameworks.

1224
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.780 A:middle L:90%
And then again, if you go into political science

1225
01:04:48.780 --> 01:04:50.800 A:middle L:90%
and look where a lot of my colleagues and science

1226
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:54.960 A:middle L:90%
policy has been educated and what kind of theory they

1227
01:04:54.969 --> 01:04:58.050 A:middle L:90%
read in political science that, you know they don't

1228
01:04:58.050 --> 01:05:00.969 A:middle L:90%
recover anymore, they barely Rick Kuhn, you know

1229
01:05:00.969 --> 01:05:03.500 A:middle L:90%
, they do read science and technology started no philosophy

1230
01:05:03.510 --> 01:05:05.800 A:middle L:90%
, no theory of science anymore. So in that

1231
01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:09.309 A:middle L:90%
sense, also had a very practical kind of textbooks

1232
01:05:09.309 --> 01:05:14.079 A:middle L:90%
, and the kind of fluidity or plasticity of Constructivism

1233
01:05:14.079 --> 01:05:15.039 A:middle L:90%
has kind of spilled over into policy. And I

1234
01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:17.849 A:middle L:90%
think that's a real challenge also in what you're saying

1235
01:05:17.849 --> 01:05:20.400 A:middle L:90%
starting out thinking, you know, Amazon constructive.

1236
01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:23.349 A:middle L:90%
If I used to be one, so perhaps you

1237
01:05:23.349 --> 01:05:24.730 A:middle L:90%
could expand a little bit of that. Well,

1238
01:05:24.730 --> 01:05:26.719 A:middle L:90%
look, I don't think Constructivism is really the problem

1239
01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:28.809 A:middle L:90%
here. I think it's Constructivism without a name,

1240
01:05:29.190 --> 01:05:30.530 A:middle L:90%
Okay? I mean, I mean, one of

1241
01:05:30.530 --> 01:05:32.730 A:middle L:90%
the things that makes, uh, one of the

1242
01:05:32.730 --> 01:05:36.139 A:middle L:90%
things that that I think made Social Constructivism a kind

1243
01:05:36.139 --> 01:05:39.809 A:middle L:90%
of radical position back in the sixties, seventies and

1244
01:05:39.809 --> 01:05:43.079 A:middle L:90%
eighties, Uh, was the idea that you didn't

1245
01:05:43.090 --> 01:05:45.789 A:middle L:90%
when you were studying the agents, you didn't presume

1246
01:05:45.789 --> 01:05:47.789 A:middle L:90%
that they all had some ideal of truth or some

1247
01:05:47.789 --> 01:05:51.250 A:middle L:90%
kind of common thing common epistemological norm that they were

1248
01:05:51.250 --> 01:05:55.469 A:middle L:90%
all working toward, Uh, but rather you imagine

1249
01:05:55.469 --> 01:05:57.920 A:middle L:90%
that each bunch of agents had kind of their own

1250
01:05:57.920 --> 01:06:00.739 A:middle L:90%
designs, they were doing their own thing, and

1251
01:06:00.739 --> 01:06:02.019 A:middle L:90%
and in a sense, that from an empirical standpoint

1252
01:06:02.019 --> 01:06:05.429 A:middle L:90%
, that's fine. But then we and maybe this

1253
01:06:05.429 --> 01:06:08.429 A:middle L:90%
is kind of the reflexive move that needs to be

1254
01:06:08.429 --> 01:06:10.719 A:middle L:90%
taken. We need to be clear about what we're

1255
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:13.769 A:middle L:90%
about in doing this. Okay, Uh, and

1256
01:06:13.769 --> 01:06:15.210 A:middle L:90%
and this morning, when we had the session this

1257
01:06:15.210 --> 01:06:18.559 A:middle L:90%
morning, we talked about this emerging part of science

1258
01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:23.030 A:middle L:90%
technology studies which I think actually has a lot in

1259
01:06:23.030 --> 01:06:26.099 A:middle L:90%
common with social epistemology, which is the anticipatory governance

1260
01:06:26.099 --> 01:06:29.849 A:middle L:90%
business. Okay, um, and I've been quite

1261
01:06:29.849 --> 01:06:31.130 A:middle L:90%
critical of this largely because these people are just up

1262
01:06:31.139 --> 01:06:33.780 A:middle L:90%
for higher. Right? And this is in case

1263
01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:39.219 A:middle L:90%
you aren't familiar. Anticipatory governance is this form of

1264
01:06:39.230 --> 01:06:41.889 A:middle L:90%
STS research where you have, let's say, the

1265
01:06:41.889 --> 01:06:45.670 A:middle L:90%
National Science Foundation of European Union funding researchers to check

1266
01:06:45.670 --> 01:06:49.960 A:middle L:90%
to see how ordinary people are responding to anticipated innovations

1267
01:06:49.969 --> 01:06:54.610 A:middle L:90%
in science and technology. Nanotechnology, biotechnology, and

1268
01:06:54.610 --> 01:06:56.480 A:middle L:90%
trying to figure out what kinds of things are you

1269
01:06:56.480 --> 01:06:58.860 A:middle L:90%
looking forward toward, what sorts of things frighten them

1270
01:06:58.869 --> 01:07:00.880 A:middle L:90%
. And then this would be fed in to the

1271
01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:02.750 A:middle L:90%
way in which these techniques, sciences and technologies are

1272
01:07:02.750 --> 01:07:06.300 A:middle L:90%
then marketed and presented once they actually come on stream

1273
01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:10.070 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, and this is called anticipatory governance.

1274
01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:13.150 A:middle L:90%
It's a big bloom area. Um, it's basically

1275
01:07:13.150 --> 01:07:15.780 A:middle L:90%
public relations, I think, uh, in its

1276
01:07:15.780 --> 01:07:18.239 A:middle L:90%
current form. But this is but but there's nothing

1277
01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:20.739 A:middle L:90%
wrong, actually, with engaging with people about the

1278
01:07:20.739 --> 01:07:23.150 A:middle L:90%
future and all the rest of it. So it's

1279
01:07:23.150 --> 01:07:25.130 A:middle L:90%
not the activity itself. That's the problem. The

1280
01:07:25.130 --> 01:07:29.099 A:middle L:90%
problem is the lack of personal responsibility for the outcome

1281
01:07:29.179 --> 01:07:30.039 A:middle L:90%
. That's the problem in the way you were bringing

1282
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:32.510 A:middle L:90%
this up yourself, right? Namely that if signs

1283
01:07:32.510 --> 01:07:35.380 A:middle L:90%
of technology, it's so if the social system ologists

1284
01:07:35.389 --> 01:07:39.369 A:middle L:90%
were to say, Look, you know, um

1285
01:07:39.380 --> 01:07:42.900 A:middle L:90%
, we actually think that in a sense, you

1286
01:07:42.900 --> 01:07:45.940 A:middle L:90%
ought to be interested and concerned about these things that

1287
01:07:45.940 --> 01:07:46.980 A:middle L:90%
are happening. Um, and we want to know

1288
01:07:46.980 --> 01:07:49.579 A:middle L:90%
what you think, and we're in a way pushing

1289
01:07:49.579 --> 01:07:53.150 A:middle L:90%
it, and we have to take some responsibility for

1290
01:07:53.150 --> 01:07:55.900 A:middle L:90%
it. That wouldn't be a problem. Okay,

1291
01:07:55.909 --> 01:07:58.940 A:middle L:90%
I think the problem My problem with STS social constructivist

1292
01:07:58.940 --> 01:08:00.400 A:middle L:90%
type people on this matter is a refusal to take

1293
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:03.199 A:middle L:90%
responsibility and just acting as if there are tools,

1294
01:08:04.570 --> 01:08:06.199 A:middle L:90%
right, Because the people who do this kind of

1295
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:08.719 A:middle L:90%
research will next. We do some other kind of

1296
01:08:08.719 --> 01:08:10.820 A:middle L:90%
research, and they'll just say, You know,

1297
01:08:10.829 --> 01:08:13.050 A:middle L:90%
I'm just revealing what the people think when we give

1298
01:08:13.050 --> 01:08:15.800 A:middle L:90%
them these weak, immediate things or, you know

1299
01:08:15.809 --> 01:08:18.079 A:middle L:90%
, consensus conferences or whatever, but I have nothing

1300
01:08:18.079 --> 01:08:20.479 A:middle L:90%
to do with what you guys do with it or

1301
01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:24.600 A:middle L:90%
anything like that. I'm just being paid to facilitate

1302
01:08:24.609 --> 01:08:27.319 A:middle L:90%
, essentially right. And so the social Constructivist side

1303
01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:30.289 A:middle L:90%
of STS then becomes very good in enabling voices that

1304
01:08:30.289 --> 01:08:32.609 A:middle L:90%
would otherwise be suppressed to be voiced but they take

1305
01:08:32.609 --> 01:08:35.680 A:middle L:90%
no responsibility for the consequences of that, right?

1306
01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:39.039 A:middle L:90%
They just move onto the next project. My view

1307
01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:41.640 A:middle L:90%
is, social epistemology actually should be interested in this

1308
01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:44.170 A:middle L:90%
kind of activity, but should take some responsibility for

1309
01:08:44.170 --> 01:08:45.779 A:middle L:90%
it. And in a sense, say, Well

1310
01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:48.029 A:middle L:90%
, look, if we do endorse the stuff right

1311
01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:49.579 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we should be more on board

1312
01:08:49.579 --> 01:08:54.140 A:middle L:90%
with it. We should be actually using this material

1313
01:08:54.149 --> 01:08:56.090 A:middle L:90%
to actually advocates. At least that's a little bit

1314
01:08:56.090 --> 01:08:58.550 A:middle L:90%
more socially responsible, because I think at the moment

1315
01:08:58.550 --> 01:09:00.689 A:middle L:90%
STS is kind of just like a wild card,

1316
01:09:00.470 --> 01:09:02.970 A:middle L:90%
right that you can hire to get people to reveal

1317
01:09:02.970 --> 01:09:05.460 A:middle L:90%
things about other people and then use it to however

1318
01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:09.289 A:middle L:90%
you want. Now I realize this kind of view

1319
01:09:09.289 --> 01:09:11.979 A:middle L:90%
it is a controversial one, but I think that

1320
01:09:11.979 --> 01:09:14.250 A:middle L:90%
in a sense, this is what social epistemology demands

1321
01:09:14.260 --> 01:09:15.590 A:middle L:90%
, that if your social Constructivist you have to make

1322
01:09:15.590 --> 01:09:17.920 A:middle L:90%
your ends explicit, you have to make your aims

1323
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:21.439 A:middle L:90%
explicitly. You cannot just be a tool, and

1324
01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:23.989 A:middle L:90%
I think that's the problem. You're pointing to its

1325
01:09:23.989 --> 01:09:28.329 A:middle L:90%
social Constructivism social Constructivism. Basically, let's the people

1326
01:09:28.329 --> 01:09:30.689 A:middle L:90%
you're looking at, the people you're studying, set

1327
01:09:30.689 --> 01:09:32.359 A:middle L:90%
the aims and you yourself are just as it were

1328
01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:34.899 A:middle L:90%
, the medium through which all of that is reflected

1329
01:09:35.770 --> 01:09:38.659 A:middle L:90%
. And I think that's a real problem from the

1330
01:09:38.659 --> 01:09:41.739 A:middle L:90%
standpoint of any kind of integrity, as far as

1331
01:09:41.739 --> 01:09:43.550 A:middle L:90%
the skills. And that's why I compared it to

1332
01:09:43.550 --> 01:09:48.000 A:middle L:90%
public relations this morning. Mhm. Yeah, right

1333
01:09:50.569 --> 01:09:57.640 A:middle L:90%
. Come on. Hmm. Okay. We'll continue

1334
01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:00.529 A:middle L:90%
the, uh You hear me? Yeah. We'll

1335
01:10:00.529 --> 01:10:04.510 A:middle L:90%
continue the company. You can introduce yourself. Yes

1336
01:10:04.579 --> 01:10:08.039 A:middle L:90%
. So I'm Thomas bastard, and I'm a writing

1337
01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:10.609 A:middle L:90%
coach. Independent. Have been for a while.

1338
01:10:10.609 --> 01:10:13.710 A:middle L:90%
I'll be starting at the Copenhagen Business School library.

1339
01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:17.670 A:middle L:90%
Uh, next month. Um And, uh,

1340
01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:21.140 A:middle L:90%
So I think my question is also that the university

1341
01:10:21.140 --> 01:10:23.039 A:middle L:90%
of what you do and I want to get back

1342
01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:25.020 A:middle L:90%
to this research and teaching thing is the essence of

1343
01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:27.880 A:middle L:90%
the university. Because it seems to me that,

1344
01:10:27.890 --> 01:10:32.720 A:middle L:90%
um if the university is some distinctive institution, that

1345
01:10:32.729 --> 01:10:35.310 A:middle L:90%
tells us a little bit about what knowledge is and

1346
01:10:35.310 --> 01:10:40.119 A:middle L:90%
especially ought to be, um Then the most interesting

1347
01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:44.470 A:middle L:90%
thing about it might not be, uh, mhm

1348
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:48.079 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, actually, the most interesting about it

1349
01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:51.350 A:middle L:90%
might be the way that we pass on knowledge through

1350
01:10:51.350 --> 01:10:56.109 A:middle L:90%
the institution. So this whole story I have,

1351
01:10:56.119 --> 01:10:59.800 A:middle L:90%
um there was a symposium method company in business school

1352
01:10:59.810 --> 01:11:01.449 A:middle L:90%
a few years ago on engaged scholarship This whole idea

1353
01:11:01.449 --> 01:11:03.310 A:middle L:90%
of how do we get, uh, scientists,

1354
01:11:03.310 --> 01:11:05.880 A:middle L:90%
researchers, scholars to engage with and, of course

1355
01:11:05.960 --> 01:11:09.649 A:middle L:90%
, business, school with business? How do we

1356
01:11:09.649 --> 01:11:11.960 A:middle L:90%
get the knowledge from the university is being produced in

1357
01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:15.090 A:middle L:90%
research out into practice? How do we get that

1358
01:11:15.100 --> 01:11:19.289 A:middle L:90%
communication going? Um, and so one of the

1359
01:11:19.300 --> 01:11:25.220 A:middle L:90%
Panelists and this discussion was from a consulting a large

1360
01:11:25.229 --> 01:11:29.010 A:middle L:90%
major consulting house. And she said, Um,

1361
01:11:29.020 --> 01:11:30.960 A:middle L:90%
she said, You have to understand your researchers that

1362
01:11:30.960 --> 01:11:33.130 A:middle L:90%
we have certain needs in the way you package and

1363
01:11:33.130 --> 01:11:40.119 A:middle L:90%
present this information, um, and and and so

1364
01:11:40.130 --> 01:11:42.189 A:middle L:90%
first of all, we needed to go fast and

1365
01:11:42.189 --> 01:11:45.119 A:middle L:90%
we don't need 110% solutions. We need 90% solutions

1366
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:47.510 A:middle L:90%
or whatever, she said. And then she said

1367
01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:51.289 A:middle L:90%
, What you need, scholars is a product launch

1368
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:54.500 A:middle L:90%
, right? You need to find a way of

1369
01:11:54.500 --> 01:11:58.350 A:middle L:90%
packaging your ideas and and and sell them to us

1370
01:11:58.350 --> 01:12:00.109 A:middle L:90%
so that we know what you've got and we can

1371
01:12:00.109 --> 01:12:01.729 A:middle L:90%
put it into a fact. And my response to

1372
01:12:01.729 --> 01:12:03.909 A:middle L:90%
that was I said, Listen, we have a

1373
01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:10.100 A:middle L:90%
product watch at the university it's called graduation. Alright

1374
01:12:10.109 --> 01:12:15.789 A:middle L:90%
, we produce continuously knowledgeable people, and then you

1375
01:12:15.789 --> 01:12:17.779 A:middle L:90%
are you know you're welcome to pay them. We

1376
01:12:17.789 --> 01:12:20.340 A:middle L:90%
There's not even really any great mystery about what the

1377
01:12:20.350 --> 01:12:24.550 A:middle L:90%
right fair just crisis because there's, you know,

1378
01:12:24.550 --> 01:12:27.020 A:middle L:90%
starting salary, depending on which institution you come out

1379
01:12:27.020 --> 01:12:29.130 A:middle L:90%
of. What kind of grades you got so forth

1380
01:12:29.140 --> 01:12:31.989 A:middle L:90%
easy to determine. But but the difference between those

1381
01:12:31.989 --> 01:12:33.949 A:middle L:90%
two kinds of knowledge is one of them says knowledge

1382
01:12:33.949 --> 01:12:36.250 A:middle L:90%
is the thing we produce these ideas that we come

1383
01:12:36.250 --> 01:12:39.760 A:middle L:90%
up with at the university, and then we have

1384
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:42.489 A:middle L:90%
to distribute the ideas. But if knowledge is this

1385
01:12:42.500 --> 01:12:46.229 A:middle L:90%
other thing which goes into students and it takes four

1386
01:12:46.229 --> 01:12:50.640 A:middle L:90%
or five years or more, um so the sense

1387
01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:55.279 A:middle L:90%
of discipline gets this literal sense of it's actually a

1388
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:58.680 A:middle L:90%
training of bodies so forth. And that's where I

1389
01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:01.439 A:middle L:90%
think this whole idea of of We need a notion

1390
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:04.340 A:middle L:90%
of personhood, a notion of self and I,

1391
01:13:04.350 --> 01:13:06.140 A:middle L:90%
you know, frankly, and we've talked about this

1392
01:13:06.140 --> 01:13:09.350 A:middle L:90%
before, I'm a little bit worried about the trans

1393
01:13:09.350 --> 01:13:12.060 A:middle L:90%
humanist kind of two point oh mode because it seems

1394
01:13:12.069 --> 01:13:16.789 A:middle L:90%
disembodied, the knowledge competence, the episode says we

1395
01:13:16.789 --> 01:13:19.630 A:middle L:90%
can upload it to something back that we have Google

1396
01:13:19.630 --> 01:13:21.760 A:middle L:90%
meets. We don't really need universities any more of

1397
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:24.850 A:middle L:90%
this kind of thing. So I think the idea

1398
01:13:24.850 --> 01:13:30.560 A:middle L:90%
of a slow four year training program in composing yourself

1399
01:13:30.569 --> 01:13:33.670 A:middle L:90%
as a intelligence, I think it's worth defending that

1400
01:13:33.750 --> 01:13:39.380 A:middle L:90%
in a really old school almost 19th century. This

1401
01:13:39.380 --> 01:13:41.300 A:middle L:90%
is where we disagree. But otherwise we agree.

1402
01:13:41.310 --> 01:13:43.789 A:middle L:90%
I mean, I think where we disagree is simply

1403
01:13:43.789 --> 01:13:45.489 A:middle L:90%
in the means. But I think in terms of

1404
01:13:45.489 --> 01:13:46.539 A:middle L:90%
the ends and the concerns, you have exactly share

1405
01:13:46.539 --> 01:13:49.579 A:middle L:90%
that with you. Okay, Um but, uh

1406
01:13:51.149 --> 01:13:54.060 A:middle L:90%
, to be honest with you, I don't know

1407
01:13:54.550 --> 01:13:56.590 A:middle L:90%
, I do think I mean one point. I

1408
01:13:56.590 --> 01:13:58.689 A:middle L:90%
think take home point from what you're saying I think

1409
01:13:58.689 --> 01:14:00.890 A:middle L:90%
is worth pointing out is if we want to talk

1410
01:14:00.890 --> 01:14:05.430 A:middle L:90%
about whether degree programs are successful. Uh, we

1411
01:14:05.430 --> 01:14:08.840 A:middle L:90%
shouldn't be looking in terms of what the job you

1412
01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:11.750 A:middle L:90%
get Six months after graduation, we should be looking

1413
01:14:11.750 --> 01:14:14.729 A:middle L:90%
at a longer time frame and asking people kind of

1414
01:14:14.729 --> 01:14:17.340 A:middle L:90%
more probing questions. Okay, so So that's one

1415
01:14:17.340 --> 01:14:19.789 A:middle L:90%
thing. Uh, and I certainly agree with you

1416
01:14:19.800 --> 01:14:23.460 A:middle L:90%
, by the way, that the university's biggest product

1417
01:14:23.460 --> 01:14:25.399 A:middle L:90%
is not the papers and publishers, but it's the

1418
01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:28.539 A:middle L:90%
students I agree with you 100% on that, okay

1419
01:14:28.550 --> 01:14:30.909 A:middle L:90%
? And what we need to do those of us

1420
01:14:30.909 --> 01:14:32.460 A:middle L:90%
who are interested in the future of the university is

1421
01:14:32.460 --> 01:14:39.510 A:middle L:90%
to figure out a kind of rhetorically acceptable and verifiable

1422
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.550 A:middle L:90%
way of saying we're doing a good job at this

1423
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:45.180 A:middle L:90%
. That's the challenge. It seems to me,

1424
01:14:45.189 --> 01:14:46.659 A:middle L:90%
okay, I don't think we should take granted that

1425
01:14:46.659 --> 01:14:49.729 A:middle L:90%
just because we like this idea. And we were

1426
01:14:49.739 --> 01:14:51.939 A:middle L:90%
, you know, talking a lot about it for

1427
01:14:51.949 --> 01:14:55.979 A:middle L:90%
hundreds of years means that we're any good at it

1428
01:14:55.989 --> 01:14:57.520 A:middle L:90%
. And so we need to come up with some

1429
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:01.279 A:middle L:90%
kind of metrics on this point. Okay, So

1430
01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:02.640 A:middle L:90%
this is where I think we need to be very

1431
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:05.250 A:middle L:90%
much in 21st century about this, But the values

1432
01:15:05.250 --> 01:15:09.100 A:middle L:90%
that are being defended through these metrics should indeed be

1433
01:15:09.100 --> 01:15:12.060 A:middle L:90%
the classical values. I don't think these things are

1434
01:15:12.060 --> 01:15:14.960 A:middle L:90%
mutually exclusive. Okay, So I I just think

1435
01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:15.680 A:middle L:90%
that the people who are on your side, you

1436
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:17.659 A:middle L:90%
know, on our side in this regard tend to

1437
01:15:17.659 --> 01:15:21.699 A:middle L:90%
be so quanta phobic, right, that you end

1438
01:15:21.699 --> 01:15:24.930 A:middle L:90%
up not wanting to really deal with the argument as

1439
01:15:24.930 --> 01:15:27.390 A:middle L:90%
it presents itself to us. And so as a

1440
01:15:27.390 --> 01:15:30.569 A:middle L:90%
result, you end up contributing to making the university

1441
01:15:30.569 --> 01:15:32.970 A:middle L:90%
look like an old fashioned, obsolete institution. No

1442
01:15:32.970 --> 01:15:41.609 A:middle L:90%
, Fitz. Mhm. Uh, I don't know

1443
01:15:41.619 --> 01:15:44.079 A:middle L:90%
if you remember or aware of this, There's there

1444
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:45.670 A:middle L:90%
was a study came out a few years ago called

1445
01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:48.670 A:middle L:90%
Academically Adrift. Harriman. Rogue. So, uh

1446
01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:53.560 A:middle L:90%
, and which studied raised this question? Do students

1447
01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:56.500 A:middle L:90%
get smarter by going to university? Do they actually

1448
01:15:56.510 --> 01:15:59.010 A:middle L:90%
improve their? And I believe it was analytical reasoning

1449
01:15:59.010 --> 01:16:00.529 A:middle L:90%
and critical thinking with the two categories they were looking

1450
01:16:00.539 --> 01:16:03.329 A:middle L:90%
for separate from the question of, you know,

1451
01:16:03.340 --> 01:16:06.220 A:middle L:90%
Are they becoming more knowledgeable and sort of fast dates

1452
01:16:06.220 --> 01:16:09.920 A:middle L:90%
figures, that kind of thing. Um And so

1453
01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:12.369 A:middle L:90%
they, of course, predictably found out that in

1454
01:16:12.369 --> 01:16:15.750 A:middle L:90%
fact, after two years of college, nobody's smarter

1455
01:16:15.779 --> 01:16:18.420 A:middle L:90%
. People don't appreciate get smarter by going to college

1456
01:16:18.779 --> 01:16:23.449 A:middle L:90%
and there, which is a disturbing result in itself

1457
01:16:23.449 --> 01:16:25.270 A:middle L:90%
. There was some. There was some. There's

1458
01:16:25.270 --> 01:16:27.069 A:middle L:90%
something more they learned from this. One of them

1459
01:16:27.069 --> 01:16:31.720 A:middle L:90%
was they discovered that group work had a negative effect

1460
01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:36.520 A:middle L:90%
on critical thinking. So the way I always present

1461
01:16:36.520 --> 01:16:40.300 A:middle L:90%
that to when I talk about this, especially not

1462
01:16:40.300 --> 01:16:44.149 A:middle L:90%
as an argument for libertarianism. So when I talked

1463
01:16:44.149 --> 01:16:45.939 A:middle L:90%
to when I talk to undergraduates and I tell them

1464
01:16:45.939 --> 01:16:47.250 A:middle L:90%
about this study. Uh, I say, you

1465
01:16:47.250 --> 01:16:48.890 A:middle L:90%
know, just keep this in mind. There are

1466
01:16:48.890 --> 01:16:51.720 A:middle L:90%
good reasons to engage in group work because it teaches

1467
01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:54.289 A:middle L:90%
you how to work in groups. Right? And

1468
01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:56.619 A:middle L:90%
this is an important skill, and it will just

1469
01:16:56.619 --> 01:16:58.310 A:middle L:90%
don't think it's going to make you smarter. The

1470
01:16:58.310 --> 01:17:00.359 A:middle L:90%
opposite is true, right? It's going to make

1471
01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:01.949 A:middle L:90%
you dumber, so you'll have to do something else

1472
01:17:02.329 --> 01:17:04.920 A:middle L:90%
that's gonna make you smarter. They'll compensate for that

1473
01:17:04.930 --> 01:17:06.829 A:middle L:90%
, right? Um and then, of course,

1474
01:17:06.829 --> 01:17:10.649 A:middle L:90%
the study also identified exactly what that is, which

1475
01:17:10.649 --> 01:17:13.399 A:middle L:90%
is regular reading and regular writings. They found that

1476
01:17:13.399 --> 01:17:15.470 A:middle L:90%
the liberal arts programs that had a high reading component

1477
01:17:15.470 --> 01:17:19.020 A:middle L:90%
and I writing component actually made people perform better on

1478
01:17:19.020 --> 01:17:21.090 A:middle L:90%
these tests. And so what are people doing?

1479
01:17:21.090 --> 01:17:25.770 A:middle L:90%
If they're reading and writing well, they're just interpreting

1480
01:17:25.779 --> 01:17:29.689 A:middle L:90%
and composing prose. That's all they're doing, right

1481
01:17:29.699 --> 01:17:31.409 A:middle L:90%
? And I mean, I guess we can quantify

1482
01:17:31.409 --> 01:17:33.119 A:middle L:90%
in some sense, you know, how many paragraphs

1483
01:17:33.119 --> 01:17:35.109 A:middle L:90%
will they write in the course of you know,

1484
01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:39.390 A:middle L:90%
we can be much more clever than that. But

1485
01:17:39.399 --> 01:17:42.569 A:middle L:90%
the worry is that any other kind of metric that

1486
01:17:42.569 --> 01:17:45.079 A:middle L:90%
we could put on it. Uh, is likely

1487
01:17:45.079 --> 01:17:46.510 A:middle L:90%
to forget about that. That sort of that really

1488
01:17:46.510 --> 01:17:53.100 A:middle L:90%
old school kind of compositional that, um But look

1489
01:17:53.100 --> 01:17:55.310 A:middle L:90%
, you've already begun to give a kind of metric

1490
01:17:55.319 --> 01:17:57.020 A:middle L:90%
for what you want to get at. It's just

1491
01:17:57.020 --> 01:17:59.350 A:middle L:90%
we need to get a little more involved in the

1492
01:17:59.350 --> 01:18:00.949 A:middle L:90%
project of trying to come up with sophisticated metrics.

1493
01:18:00.949 --> 01:18:03.890 A:middle L:90%
But you've already suggested direction with your example, right

1494
01:18:03.899 --> 01:18:05.920 A:middle L:90%
? But that's what I'm saying. I'm saying,

1495
01:18:05.930 --> 01:18:11.579 A:middle L:90%
um uh, we don't have to get into something

1496
01:18:11.579 --> 01:18:14.569 A:middle L:90%
terribly new, right? So the idea of saying

1497
01:18:15.149 --> 01:18:17.069 A:middle L:90%
people like me are old fashioned and afraid of metrics

1498
01:18:17.069 --> 01:18:24.829 A:middle L:90%
, right? Okay, I'm I'm certainly very able

1499
01:18:24.829 --> 01:18:26.699 A:middle L:90%
to say I know exactly what I want people to

1500
01:18:26.710 --> 01:18:30.800 A:middle L:90%
be doing for exactly how many hours a day I

1501
01:18:30.810 --> 01:18:32.229 A:middle L:90%
can set the whole training regimen. Right? But

1502
01:18:32.229 --> 01:18:34.590 A:middle L:90%
that's the thing that's become unfashionable. See, this

1503
01:18:34.590 --> 01:18:38.159 A:middle L:90%
is something for the professional society of social system.

1504
01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:40.369 A:middle L:90%
Ology to address is actually this point we're talking about

1505
01:18:40.369 --> 01:18:42.239 A:middle L:90%
right now. This is something where we can actually

1506
01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:44.340 A:middle L:90%
say something significant. Collectively, I would have thought

1507
01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.970 A:middle L:90%
exactly that's where knowledge actually happened. But the thing

1508
01:18:48.970 --> 01:18:51.220 A:middle L:90%
that I'd like you to address that is Isn't it

1509
01:18:51.220 --> 01:18:54.210 A:middle L:90%
true that it's kind of a spinning cystic? I

1510
01:18:54.210 --> 01:18:57.340 A:middle L:90%
guess. Uh, ethics, Uh, that what

1511
01:18:57.340 --> 01:18:59.729 A:middle L:90%
? We need to just figure out what the as

1512
01:18:59.729 --> 01:19:00.760 A:middle L:90%
far as knowledge goes, we need to figure out

1513
01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:04.250 A:middle L:90%
what the body can do, right? Not and

1514
01:19:04.319 --> 01:19:08.210 A:middle L:90%
not how we can get rid of the body and

1515
01:19:08.210 --> 01:19:10.210 A:middle L:90%
leave it. But this is right. But we

1516
01:19:10.210 --> 01:19:13.180 A:middle L:90%
have actually trained the human body that we have.

1517
01:19:13.189 --> 01:19:15.729 A:middle L:90%
That's what Intellectual person. Yes. Yes, I

1518
01:19:15.729 --> 01:19:16.409 A:middle L:90%
understand. But this is why I said the very

1519
01:19:16.409 --> 01:19:18.560 A:middle L:90%
beginning of the talk about the naturalism, right?

1520
01:19:18.569 --> 01:19:21.409 A:middle L:90%
Ought implies, can write. And the way my

1521
01:19:21.409 --> 01:19:25.390 A:middle L:90%
view about can has changed is the idea that can

1522
01:19:25.390 --> 01:19:27.729 A:middle L:90%
is no longer just a fixed, natural thing.

1523
01:19:27.739 --> 01:19:29.939 A:middle L:90%
But it's something that can, in fact be enhanced

1524
01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:32.430 A:middle L:90%
, transformed. You want to say something more?

1525
01:19:32.439 --> 01:19:38.960 A:middle L:90%
One more thing. So we know what we know

1526
01:19:38.960 --> 01:19:41.119 A:middle L:90%
to a certain extent. What? The body is

1527
01:19:41.119 --> 01:19:45.130 A:middle L:90%
capable of knowledge wise because of the humble fashion model

1528
01:19:45.140 --> 01:19:46.289 A:middle L:90%
. Because we've had people through the old school way

1529
01:19:46.289 --> 01:19:49.279 A:middle L:90%
of getting an education. We know also for the

1530
01:19:49.279 --> 01:19:54.949 A:middle L:90%
fact that we're not training the body. Currently student

1531
01:19:54.949 --> 01:19:57.270 A:middle L:90%
body, is it worth, uh, to do

1532
01:19:57.270 --> 01:20:00.260 A:middle L:90%
? Everything is capable of already. And so I

1533
01:20:00.260 --> 01:20:03.069 A:middle L:90%
think that the idea of augmenting or enhancing or extending

1534
01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:05.199 A:middle L:90%
, uh is kind of. It's kind of a

1535
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:10.380 A:middle L:90%
bad excuse for the negative direction that university education has

1536
01:20:10.380 --> 01:20:12.270 A:middle L:90%
taken over the last 20 or 30 years, as

1537
01:20:12.270 --> 01:20:15.920 A:middle L:90%
if because Google was invented. Suddenly the university was

1538
01:20:15.930 --> 01:20:17.630 A:middle L:90%
became irrelevant. Now we have to learn something new

1539
01:20:17.710 --> 01:20:20.640 A:middle L:90%
, and it might be easier just to actually implant

1540
01:20:20.640 --> 01:20:23.850 A:middle L:90%
something or whatever, right? So I think what

1541
01:20:23.850 --> 01:20:25.539 A:middle L:90%
we should have done is said, No, look

1542
01:20:26.579 --> 01:20:30.310 A:middle L:90%
, these new technologies, these new capacity is these

1543
01:20:30.310 --> 01:20:32.579 A:middle L:90%
new possibilities. This new extension of can, if

1544
01:20:32.579 --> 01:20:36.670 A:middle L:90%
you will right, is actually just forgetting everything that

1545
01:20:36.670 --> 01:20:40.050 A:middle L:90%
we can do. So there's a really classical kind

1546
01:20:40.050 --> 01:20:43.739 A:middle L:90%
of concept to the argument against the printing press,

1547
01:20:43.750 --> 01:20:46.539 A:middle L:90%
right? This is the argument against the printing press

1548
01:20:46.810 --> 01:20:56.000 A:middle L:90%
. I wouldn't exactly Yes, it would only if

1549
01:20:56.010 --> 01:20:59.840 A:middle L:90%
it would only by a slower uptake of technology,

1550
01:20:59.840 --> 01:21:00.479 A:middle L:90%
right? I think. I mean, I think

1551
01:21:00.489 --> 01:21:03.199 A:middle L:90%
we really have to recognize that if it's true that

1552
01:21:03.199 --> 01:21:08.460 A:middle L:90%
a four year degree program is kind of reasonable,

1553
01:21:08.460 --> 01:21:09.800 A:middle L:90%
I mean, we can argue about whether it should

1554
01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:12.470 A:middle L:90%
be longer shorter, but there's so many years in

1555
01:21:12.470 --> 01:21:15.750 A:middle L:90%
Europe. But there's, but there's some temporal kind

1556
01:21:15.750 --> 01:21:17.399 A:middle L:90%
of range that's kind of a reasonable for serious,

1557
01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:20.609 A:middle L:90%
knowing to kind of get in cocaine. Um,

1558
01:21:20.619 --> 01:21:24.779 A:middle L:90%
Then there is also and there's simply there's some there's

1559
01:21:24.779 --> 01:21:27.670 A:middle L:90%
such a thing is going too fast. You can

1560
01:21:27.680 --> 01:21:30.770 A:middle L:90%
you can simply go to friends. And so and

1561
01:21:30.770 --> 01:21:32.890 A:middle L:90%
I think that that's the trends. The two point

1562
01:21:32.890 --> 01:21:35.819 A:middle L:90%
oh, transform this kind of suggestion. The university

1563
01:21:36.090 --> 01:21:40.109 A:middle L:90%
is just an attempt to go so fast, Uh

1564
01:21:40.119 --> 01:21:41.619 A:middle L:90%
, that we don't really have to know you,

1565
01:21:42.109 --> 01:21:45.899 A:middle L:90%
but yeah, okay. Okay. No. Okay

1566
01:21:45.909 --> 01:21:46.170 A:middle L:90%
. This is a conference. This is actually a

1567
01:21:46.170 --> 01:21:51.630 A:middle L:90%
very worthwhile conversation to have many occasions in the future

1568
01:21:53.510 --> 01:22:05.520 A:middle L:90%
. Joan has her hands. Yeah. Introduce yourself

1569
01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:11.029 A:middle L:90%
. I'm I'm connected. Gregory Sense from European Humanities

1570
01:22:11.029 --> 01:22:14.869 A:middle L:90%
University. And with Wayne. I want to continue

1571
01:22:14.869 --> 01:22:17.180 A:middle L:90%
that on this naturalism just back. But you also

1572
01:22:17.189 --> 01:22:20.970 A:middle L:90%
brought up the topic of humanism, at least in

1573
01:22:20.979 --> 01:22:27.439 A:middle L:90%
the humanists. And I could go a little humanist

1574
01:22:27.439 --> 01:22:29.850 A:middle L:90%
. Super mon. The situation of the university.

1575
01:22:29.859 --> 01:22:35.840 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, like Thomas, all those Matthew ardent fans

1576
01:22:35.840 --> 01:22:40.869 A:middle L:90%
out there. You started by saying I have considered

1577
01:22:40.869 --> 01:22:44.779 A:middle L:90%
myself a naturalist. And but yet over 25 years

1578
01:22:44.789 --> 01:22:47.229 A:middle L:90%
, some things have changed, and I wonder if

1579
01:22:47.239 --> 01:22:51.010 A:middle L:90%
or how you put together naturalism and humanism. Now

1580
01:22:51.399 --> 01:22:56.010 A:middle L:90%
, um, such that we're We can no longer

1581
01:22:56.020 --> 01:23:00.359 A:middle L:90%
have to bemoan the situation of the university. Have

1582
01:23:00.359 --> 01:23:05.260 A:middle L:90%
you transformed into a non natural throughout that process?

1583
01:23:05.270 --> 01:23:09.930 A:middle L:90%
Before it was on your It's not yours, but

1584
01:23:09.939 --> 01:23:13.899 A:middle L:90%
the Wikipedia page is definitely not much, right?

1585
01:23:13.909 --> 01:23:16.819 A:middle L:90%
Right. Uh, you were called by introduced Career

1586
01:23:16.819 --> 01:23:20.380 A:middle L:90%
a secular humanist, but that seems to have changed

1587
01:23:20.380 --> 01:23:21.890 A:middle L:90%
over the years as well. And I wonder if

1588
01:23:21.890 --> 01:23:26.000 A:middle L:90%
you could address that the the naturalism. Humanism?

1589
01:23:26.010 --> 01:23:28.789 A:middle L:90%
Because it does seem to come across this issue of

1590
01:23:28.789 --> 01:23:32.550 A:middle L:90%
social. I wanted to address to the new extension

1591
01:23:32.550 --> 01:23:35.829 A:middle L:90%
of Can that Thomas Brown. Wasn't that what Obama

1592
01:23:35.829 --> 01:23:39.680 A:middle L:90%
was promising? Yes, we can extension of,

1593
01:23:40.630 --> 01:23:47.800 A:middle L:90%
uh, there's a story currently on the BBC website

1594
01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:51.899 A:middle L:90%
about how Obama is being blamed for every world problem

1595
01:23:51.899 --> 01:23:56.789 A:middle L:90%
that's taken place over the last five years. So

1596
01:23:56.789 --> 01:24:00.229 A:middle L:90%
I don't want to. That's what happens when you

1597
01:24:00.229 --> 01:24:03.710 A:middle L:90%
get a Nobel Prize for peace. Uh, but

1598
01:24:04.689 --> 01:24:08.329 A:middle L:90%
no, look, I am not secular humanism.

1599
01:24:08.340 --> 01:24:11.390 A:middle L:90%
I mean, I think there's some terminal logical issues

1600
01:24:11.390 --> 01:24:13.970 A:middle L:90%
here, and I just clarified when I was when

1601
01:24:13.970 --> 01:24:15.550 A:middle L:90%
I was talking about humanism in that the moment sense

1602
01:24:15.550 --> 01:24:19.060 A:middle L:90%
that Thomas is part of. I was actually talking

1603
01:24:19.060 --> 01:24:24.810 A:middle L:90%
about people who still see a kind of classical humanities

1604
01:24:24.810 --> 01:24:27.500 A:middle L:90%
as the foundation of university. That was what I

1605
01:24:27.500 --> 01:24:30.640 A:middle L:90%
was talking about. Um, what I wasn't talking

1606
01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:33.750 A:middle L:90%
about specifically was this other more general view about humanism

1607
01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:38.359 A:middle L:90%
as a kind of human centered worldview. Okay.

1608
01:24:38.369 --> 01:24:41.109 A:middle L:90%
And that's the sense in which I'm a secular humanist

1609
01:24:41.119 --> 01:24:44.229 A:middle L:90%
. Now, naturalism has a very kind of,

1610
01:24:44.239 --> 01:24:49.880 A:middle L:90%
uh, peculiar relationship to this because of people who

1611
01:24:49.880 --> 01:24:54.670 A:middle L:90%
call themselves secular humanists. Um, part of what

1612
01:24:54.670 --> 01:24:59.119 A:middle L:90%
they're trying to do is to distance themselves from any

1613
01:24:59.119 --> 01:25:03.710 A:middle L:90%
kind of theological understanding of the human being. And

1614
01:25:04.189 --> 01:25:06.199 A:middle L:90%
in that respect, I'm not. I'm not quite

1615
01:25:06.210 --> 01:25:09.550 A:middle L:90%
a secular humanist in that sense, Okay? But

1616
01:25:09.550 --> 01:25:12.869 A:middle L:90%
I do distinguish I'm not a churchgoer or a church

1617
01:25:12.869 --> 01:25:15.680 A:middle L:90%
person, okay? But I do think that the

1618
01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:20.609 A:middle L:90%
point about the naturalism is that, um that naturalism

1619
01:25:20.619 --> 01:25:23.819 A:middle L:90%
in a way forces you to think about the human

1620
01:25:23.819 --> 01:25:25.829 A:middle L:90%
being kind of the way that that that that Thomas

1621
01:25:25.829 --> 01:25:27.789 A:middle L:90%
was saying right in the sense of, you know

1622
01:25:27.800 --> 01:25:30.520 A:middle L:90%
, the human being as Homo SAPIENs as the biological

1623
01:25:30.520 --> 01:25:32.550 A:middle L:90%
creature that has certain kind of capacities. Uh,

1624
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:36.069 A:middle L:90%
and obviously capacities I'm quite happy to grant are formed

1625
01:25:36.069 --> 01:25:39.850 A:middle L:90%
as a product of evolution and social arrangements and all

1626
01:25:39.850 --> 01:25:42.279 A:middle L:90%
the rest of it. And then the question becomes

1627
01:25:42.289 --> 01:25:45.300 A:middle L:90%
, Is that all there is right And so that

1628
01:25:45.300 --> 01:25:46.340 A:middle L:90%
when we talk about what a human being can be

1629
01:25:46.350 --> 01:25:49.300 A:middle L:90%
, are we pretty much just limiting ourselves to that

1630
01:25:49.300 --> 01:25:53.920 A:middle L:90%
kind of understanding of the human being which Thomas I

1631
01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:57.270 A:middle L:90%
take it to be saying Yes, but I don't

1632
01:25:57.279 --> 01:26:00.479 A:middle L:90%
. Okay, Um and so there is this possibility

1633
01:26:00.479 --> 01:26:01.779 A:middle L:90%
for extensions, and we can have arguments about what

1634
01:26:01.779 --> 01:26:04.310 A:middle L:90%
sorts of extensions are permissible or not. Is it

1635
01:26:04.310 --> 01:26:06.760 A:middle L:90%
permissible to be able to take a drug to replace

1636
01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:10.250 A:middle L:90%
reading a book? It's an interesting argument to have

1637
01:26:10.260 --> 01:26:12.710 A:middle L:90%
, and I don't think it's I don't have a

1638
01:26:13.479 --> 01:26:15.390 A:middle L:90%
I can see why you disagree. Okay? I'm

1639
01:26:15.390 --> 01:26:17.430 A:middle L:90%
not gonna I'm not gonna completely deny that, um

1640
01:26:17.439 --> 01:26:19.609 A:middle L:90%
, but I do think there's a further issue.

1641
01:26:19.619 --> 01:26:21.539 A:middle L:90%
And maybe this is what you're getting at. As

1642
01:26:21.539 --> 01:26:26.500 A:middle L:90%
why would one want to think about extending the can

1643
01:26:26.979 --> 01:26:28.500 A:middle L:90%
, right? In other words, why would one

1644
01:26:28.500 --> 01:26:30.159 A:middle L:90%
want to think about a human being as an extended

1645
01:26:30.159 --> 01:26:33.770 A:middle L:90%
entity, right? Because human being as an extended

1646
01:26:33.770 --> 01:26:38.130 A:middle L:90%
entity then causes all kinds of problems with regard to

1647
01:26:38.130 --> 01:26:40.609 A:middle L:90%
the environment. I mean, all the attempts of

1648
01:26:40.609 --> 01:26:44.539 A:middle L:90%
human extension from an environmental standpoint, right and lead

1649
01:26:44.539 --> 01:26:46.130 A:middle L:90%
to all kinds of ecological dislocations and all the rest

1650
01:26:46.130 --> 01:26:48.520 A:middle L:90%
of it. Okay. And this is where I

1651
01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:51.600 A:middle L:90%
think that a more theological dimension comes in because naturalism

1652
01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:54.310 A:middle L:90%
alone is not going to justify that. If you

1653
01:26:54.310 --> 01:26:58.380 A:middle L:90%
were straight naturalist with regard to human capacities, right

1654
01:26:58.380 --> 01:26:59.989 A:middle L:90%
, you'd stick with humanity. One point. Oh

1655
01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:01.090 A:middle L:90%
, right. You stick with Homo SAPIENs and you

1656
01:27:01.090 --> 01:27:04.329 A:middle L:90%
would say, have Homo SAPIENs live in their environments

1657
01:27:04.340 --> 01:27:08.189 A:middle L:90%
, right? Compatible with other Homo SAPIENs and other

1658
01:27:08.189 --> 01:27:11.699 A:middle L:90%
creatures in a way that is ecologically stable as possible

1659
01:27:12.479 --> 01:27:14.069 A:middle L:90%
. Now, my view about this and this is

1660
01:27:14.069 --> 01:27:15.229 A:middle L:90%
where I become a trans humanist is I think if

1661
01:27:15.229 --> 01:27:17.359 A:middle L:90%
we actually took that advice seriously over the centuries,

1662
01:27:17.359 --> 01:27:20.300 A:middle L:90%
we'd never be where we are today. We'll be

1663
01:27:20.300 --> 01:27:23.960 A:middle L:90%
much more backward by by the standards that we have

1664
01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:27.189 A:middle L:90%
today. We would be much for that. But

1665
01:27:27.189 --> 01:27:29.020 A:middle L:90%
in fact, what has actually led us to be

1666
01:27:29.020 --> 01:27:30.729 A:middle L:90%
where we are today to be as advanced as we

1667
01:27:30.729 --> 01:27:33.659 A:middle L:90%
regard ourselves to be today is because we have not

1668
01:27:33.670 --> 01:27:36.310 A:middle L:90%
believed this idea that were just limited to our physical

1669
01:27:36.310 --> 01:27:39.649 A:middle L:90%
bodies that we have capacities that go beyond it.

1670
01:27:39.659 --> 01:27:41.600 A:middle L:90%
And we just need to explore how to get there

1671
01:27:41.609 --> 01:27:44.159 A:middle L:90%
. And this is where technology and medicine and and

1672
01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:45.779 A:middle L:90%
, you know, social engineering. And all the

1673
01:27:45.779 --> 01:27:47.649 A:middle L:90%
rest of it have played a very important pope role

1674
01:27:47.649 --> 01:27:50.859 A:middle L:90%
in extending the human condition. And that's what you

1675
01:27:50.859 --> 01:27:54.399 A:middle L:90%
mean by intelligent design. As I understand as well

1676
01:27:54.409 --> 01:27:55.979 A:middle L:90%
, so that yeah, I mean, I have

1677
01:27:55.979 --> 01:27:58.489 A:middle L:90%
some reservations in the audience about that, I think

1678
01:27:58.500 --> 01:27:59.949 A:middle L:90%
. No, no, no, but but I

1679
01:27:59.949 --> 01:28:00.159 A:middle L:90%
see that as all part of the people. We

1680
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:01.529 A:middle L:90%
could have a discussion about that if you want.

1681
01:28:01.529 --> 01:28:03.130 A:middle L:90%
But it seems to me that that is all very

1682
01:28:03.130 --> 01:28:06.439 A:middle L:90%
much part of peace. The people, people who

1683
01:28:06.439 --> 01:28:10.060 A:middle L:90%
believe in intelligent, you know, it's that it

1684
01:28:10.060 --> 01:28:12.899 A:middle L:90%
isn't simply intelligent design, but it's the idea that

1685
01:28:12.899 --> 01:28:15.770 A:middle L:90%
the universe as a whole is intelligible, right?

1686
01:28:15.770 --> 01:28:16.159 A:middle L:90%
In other words, because, look, if you're

1687
01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:19.329 A:middle L:90%
if you're if you're a Darwinist or a strict naturalist

1688
01:28:19.340 --> 01:28:21.659 A:middle L:90%
, right, What is the kind of knowledge that

1689
01:28:21.659 --> 01:28:25.119 A:middle L:90%
is appropriate to you is the kind of knowledge that

1690
01:28:25.130 --> 01:28:27.270 A:middle L:90%
enables you to survive in the environment in which you

1691
01:28:27.270 --> 01:28:30.560 A:middle L:90%
normally live right? That's the story, right?

1692
01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:33.409 A:middle L:90%
And so there we take into account, You know

1693
01:28:33.420 --> 01:28:35.319 A:middle L:90%
, the way in which we came into existence.

1694
01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:36.829 A:middle L:90%
We look at the, you know, we look

1695
01:28:36.829 --> 01:28:40.590 A:middle L:90%
at the restrictions on the on the capacities of the

1696
01:28:40.590 --> 01:28:43.010 A:middle L:90%
human body, as it's, you know, biologically

1697
01:28:43.010 --> 01:28:45.600 A:middle L:90%
born, and we kind of limit ourselves to death

1698
01:28:45.869 --> 01:28:48.289 A:middle L:90%
. But human beings are clearly much more than that

1699
01:28:48.770 --> 01:28:50.750 A:middle L:90%
. And the question. And not only have we

1700
01:28:50.750 --> 01:28:53.699 A:middle L:90%
tried to be much more than that, we succeeded

1701
01:28:53.699 --> 01:28:56.069 A:middle L:90%
in being much more than that. And the question

1702
01:28:56.069 --> 01:28:58.359 A:middle L:90%
is why, right? Why have we done this

1703
01:28:58.359 --> 01:29:00.350 A:middle L:90%
? And what does this reflect? So, for

1704
01:29:00.350 --> 01:29:02.010 A:middle L:90%
example, are most prestigious forms of knowledge on which

1705
01:29:02.020 --> 01:29:04.180 A:middle L:90%
, on the basis of which we judge everything else

1706
01:29:04.189 --> 01:29:06.750 A:middle L:90%
tend to be about knowledge about far away places to

1707
01:29:06.750 --> 01:29:09.920 A:middle L:90%
which we have. No very little contact tends to

1708
01:29:09.920 --> 01:29:12.329 A:middle L:90%
be mathematics, physics. Things of that kind were

1709
01:29:12.329 --> 01:29:14.090 A:middle L:90%
talking about the cosmos and all the rest of it

1710
01:29:15.770 --> 01:29:16.899 A:middle L:90%
. Why is this the most prestigious form of knowledge

1711
01:29:16.899 --> 01:29:20.510 A:middle L:90%
has nothing to do with humans, right? In

1712
01:29:20.510 --> 01:29:21.989 A:middle L:90%
fact, the people who are most concerned about knowledge

1713
01:29:21.989 --> 01:29:26.000 A:middle L:90%
of human survival often they're regarded as not light rates

1714
01:29:27.270 --> 01:29:30.380 A:middle L:90%
, Okay. And nevertheless, regardless of what we

1715
01:29:30.380 --> 01:29:31.350 A:middle L:90%
think. This is a just situation. Not nevertheless

1716
01:29:31.350 --> 01:29:34.979 A:middle L:90%
, we have succeeded this way. Okay, so

1717
01:29:34.979 --> 01:29:36.829 A:middle L:90%
this is the kind of thing that I'm talking about

1718
01:29:36.840 --> 01:29:39.470 A:middle L:90%
. And and this goes, I think, beyond

1719
01:29:39.479 --> 01:29:42.979 A:middle L:90%
what naturalists normally are willing to contemplate. But,

1720
01:29:42.989 --> 01:29:44.319 A:middle L:90%
you know, if you look at the degree to

1721
01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:45.720 A:middle L:90%
which we have kind of really, you know,

1722
01:29:45.729 --> 01:29:49.390 A:middle L:90%
shot out of our natural ecological niches over the past

1723
01:29:49.399 --> 01:29:53.390 A:middle L:90%
40,000 years, right? You you kind of wonder

1724
01:29:53.390 --> 01:29:55.840 A:middle L:90%
. Why is this just a lucky break? What's

1725
01:29:55.840 --> 01:29:58.180 A:middle L:90%
going on here? And maybe it is just a

1726
01:29:58.180 --> 01:30:00.000 A:middle L:90%
lucky break. Its global warming will share within a

1727
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:05.930 A:middle L:90%
couple of days. Yeah, I've already asked University

1728
01:30:05.930 --> 01:30:10.880 A:middle L:90%
of Queensland in Australia. Yes, it again.

1729
01:30:11.460 --> 01:30:13.850 A:middle L:90%
Alright. University of Queensland, Australia. I want

1730
01:30:13.850 --> 01:30:16.229 A:middle L:90%
to come back to the question of knowledge, and

1731
01:30:16.229 --> 01:30:19.060 A:middle L:90%
I want to come back to Gary Donnie's first question

1732
01:30:19.060 --> 01:30:23.350 A:middle L:90%
that you kind of never returned to and that I

1733
01:30:23.359 --> 01:30:26.010 A:middle L:90%
wasn't quite sure what Maybe you can tell me the

1734
01:30:26.279 --> 01:30:30.430 A:middle L:90%
question. Um, so this the linear knowledge that

1735
01:30:30.859 --> 01:30:33.609 A:middle L:90%
many, many of the disciplines points to reproduce themselves

1736
01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:39.050 A:middle L:90%
. Um, and so there is alternative formulations of

1737
01:30:39.050 --> 01:30:44.710 A:middle L:90%
this things like, uh, there's a problem in

1738
01:30:44.710 --> 01:30:46.399 A:middle L:90%
the sense in your view of the university, so

1739
01:30:46.409 --> 01:30:49.899 A:middle L:90%
medieval university did not exist to produce good citizens.

1740
01:30:49.899 --> 01:30:51.789 A:middle L:90%
It is not a cicerone, ian sort of place

1741
01:30:51.960 --> 01:30:54.890 A:middle L:90%
. It was much more of an elite sort of

1742
01:30:54.890 --> 01:30:57.659 A:middle L:90%
place. The 20th century university, however, is

1743
01:30:57.659 --> 01:30:59.529 A:middle L:90%
when we get mass education, etcetera, etcetera.

1744
01:30:59.529 --> 01:31:01.270 A:middle L:90%
You start producing a population of people to go out

1745
01:31:01.270 --> 01:31:04.539 A:middle L:90%
and do something else with knowledge. Um, now

1746
01:31:04.550 --> 01:31:06.060 A:middle L:90%
I want to bring this back to our own turf

1747
01:31:06.060 --> 01:31:10.460 A:middle L:90%
and what social festive ology should be doing in relation

1748
01:31:10.460 --> 01:31:13.680 A:middle L:90%
to its own disciplinary formation. Or maybe in relation

1749
01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:15.140 A:middle L:90%
to science and technology studies. Um, that seems

1750
01:31:15.140 --> 01:31:18.050 A:middle L:90%
to me with my first got, the technology becomes

1751
01:31:19.109 --> 01:31:24.140 A:middle L:90%
, But when I first got involved the President,

1752
01:31:25.159 --> 01:31:31.569 A:middle L:90%
it just a social construct, anything. That's why

1753
01:31:31.569 --> 01:31:35.819 A:middle L:90%
I had to run. Because one of the things

1754
01:31:35.819 --> 01:31:38.979 A:middle L:90%
that was always very interesting to me is that,

1755
01:31:39.159 --> 01:31:44.729 A:middle L:90%
um and why I do social epistemology occasionally teach it

1756
01:31:44.739 --> 01:31:46.300 A:middle L:90%
. Um and I do have PhD students, but

1757
01:31:46.310 --> 01:31:48.590 A:middle L:90%
the most the biggest thing that I do, um

1758
01:31:48.600 --> 01:31:50.600 A:middle L:90%
, is I talked to groups that are not going

1759
01:31:50.600 --> 01:31:55.060 A:middle L:90%
to be social system ologists. They are not going

1760
01:31:55.060 --> 01:31:57.329 A:middle L:90%
to study science and technology studies. Now they're going

1761
01:31:57.329 --> 01:32:00.489 A:middle L:90%
to be people who are talking with maybe David policy

1762
01:32:00.489 --> 01:32:01.930 A:middle L:90%
format or they're going to be doing this. And

1763
01:32:01.930 --> 01:32:04.460 A:middle L:90%
I think that is the most important. Um,

1764
01:32:04.470 --> 01:32:11.000 A:middle L:90%
not necessarily reproducing kind of disciplinary formation or attitude about

1765
01:32:11.000 --> 01:32:14.359 A:middle L:90%
Social Constructivism or even, you know, a strong

1766
01:32:14.359 --> 01:32:16.550 A:middle L:90%
commitments about knowledge is true. Believer otherwise so.

1767
01:32:16.560 --> 01:32:19.180 A:middle L:90%
I guess I'm calling you just a little bit on

1768
01:32:19.180 --> 01:32:21.750 A:middle L:90%
your view of the university, and social epistemology is

1769
01:32:21.750 --> 01:32:25.369 A:middle L:90%
placed within that university. And what the social what

1770
01:32:25.380 --> 01:32:28.659 A:middle L:90%
the attitude the social epistemology should be running the university

1771
01:32:28.659 --> 01:32:30.239 A:middle L:90%
should be a discipline in the universe. This is

1772
01:32:30.239 --> 01:32:31.079 A:middle L:90%
the bottom line with what I'm saying, okay?

1773
01:32:31.090 --> 01:32:33.050 A:middle L:90%
Because it's gonna be the social system ologists who is

1774
01:32:33.050 --> 01:32:36.590 A:middle L:90%
going to have the dynamic vision right, which I

1775
01:32:36.590 --> 01:32:40.689 A:middle L:90%
think Humboldt had about How should all these configuration of

1776
01:32:40.689 --> 01:32:44.149 A:middle L:90%
knowledge is that otherwise we just reproduce themselves mindlessly elected

1777
01:32:44.149 --> 01:32:45.590 A:middle L:90%
their own devices should in fact, be engaged with

1778
01:32:45.590 --> 01:32:47.460 A:middle L:90%
each other in a way, they can actually empower

1779
01:32:47.460 --> 01:32:50.319 A:middle L:90%
the citizenry of the future. That's what the social

1780
01:32:50.319 --> 01:32:51.880 A:middle L:90%
system. This is why I made the point about

1781
01:32:51.949 --> 01:32:55.189 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we need people in administration and

1782
01:32:55.189 --> 01:32:58.550 A:middle L:90%
university administration. You know, it's a social epistemology

1783
01:32:58.550 --> 01:33:00.600 A:middle L:90%
is not not having departments of social epistemology case you

1784
01:33:00.609 --> 01:33:02.319 A:middle L:90%
want to know? Uh, there is a department

1785
01:33:02.319 --> 01:33:05.130 A:middle L:90%
of social epistemology in the Russian Academy of Sciences I'm

1786
01:33:05.130 --> 01:33:08.470 A:middle L:90%
very pleased to see, but the point is,

1787
01:33:08.470 --> 01:33:10.449 A:middle L:90%
that's not where the action is. The action would

1788
01:33:10.449 --> 01:33:13.920 A:middle L:90%
be but a social anthropologist to be running the university

1789
01:33:13.930 --> 01:33:15.869 A:middle L:90%
. So it's not to reproduce the discipline, but

1790
01:33:15.869 --> 01:33:18.279 A:middle L:90%
is to organize. And Dina Mayes, a bunch

1791
01:33:18.279 --> 01:33:20.850 A:middle L:90%
of knowledge producers who left to their own devices would

1792
01:33:20.850 --> 01:33:25.470 A:middle L:90%
just be reproducing themselves. So I agree with you

1793
01:33:25.479 --> 01:33:28.590 A:middle L:90%
, I guess. Yeah. Okay, so is

1794
01:33:28.590 --> 01:33:30.460 A:middle L:90%
that sort of the third moment of the dialectic?

1795
01:33:30.470 --> 01:33:31.090 A:middle L:90%
Well, that's what I would say. Look,

1796
01:33:31.100 --> 01:33:33.789 A:middle L:90%
you know, I'm in the same situation as you

1797
01:33:33.789 --> 01:33:35.399 A:middle L:90%
are, frankly, in terms of what my students

1798
01:33:35.399 --> 01:33:38.770 A:middle L:90%
do, Okay? It's not like I'm reproducing people

1799
01:33:38.770 --> 01:33:41.500 A:middle L:90%
to do what I'm doing, but I do get

1800
01:33:41.500 --> 01:33:43.199 A:middle L:90%
people who do go out and do interesting things.

1801
01:33:43.199 --> 01:33:45.039 A:middle L:90%
Nevertheless, um, and it seems to me that

1802
01:33:45.039 --> 01:33:48.960 A:middle L:90%
that's exactly the ideal student of social epistemology. Would

1803
01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:53.340 A:middle L:90%
go into university administration, you know, and would

1804
01:33:53.340 --> 01:33:56.279 A:middle L:90%
actually kind of think this is the thing. I

1805
01:33:56.279 --> 01:34:00.609 A:middle L:90%
really I mean, this is where you know what

1806
01:34:00.619 --> 01:34:01.989 A:middle L:90%
? No, no, that's Okay. Okay.

1807
01:34:02.000 --> 01:34:03.239 A:middle L:90%
No, no, no. Okay, well,

1808
01:34:03.250 --> 01:34:12.350 A:middle L:90%
you're a proud success story, but yeah. No

1809
01:34:12.350 --> 01:34:14.119 A:middle L:90%
, no, no. But so I don't know

1810
01:34:14.119 --> 01:34:15.060 A:middle L:90%
. I don't think you disagree. Yeah, bro

1811
01:34:17.739 --> 01:34:20.760 A:middle L:90%
, I agree that social system ologists should be in

1812
01:34:20.770 --> 01:34:25.460 A:middle L:90%
university administrations and pretty much everywhere else. That knowledge

1813
01:34:26.140 --> 01:34:29.550 A:middle L:90%
is produced because it calls attention to normative dimensions that

1814
01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:33.550 A:middle L:90%
so many others failed to address. I mean,

1815
01:34:33.560 --> 01:34:36.930 A:middle L:90%
what I would like to come back is the where

1816
01:34:36.939 --> 01:34:41.239 A:middle L:90%
question about linear. Can you explain what this linear

1817
01:34:41.239 --> 01:34:42.460 A:middle L:90%
? I mean, I understand the model. How

1818
01:34:42.460 --> 01:34:46.640 A:middle L:90%
does it relate to the social? But a few

1819
01:34:46.640 --> 01:34:49.109 A:middle L:90%
minutes ago, you said we need new metrics,

1820
01:34:49.119 --> 01:34:56.140 A:middle L:90%
right? Okay. Um, establishing and building metrics

1821
01:34:56.140 --> 01:35:00.960 A:middle L:90%
involves a variety of practices that might be highly localized

1822
01:35:01.640 --> 01:35:06.520 A:middle L:90%
, very much situated, involve all sorts of practical

1823
01:35:06.529 --> 01:35:13.800 A:middle L:90%
judgments and may not be built necessarily from a starting

1824
01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:17.500 A:middle L:90%
point that consists of a a well articulated model that

1825
01:35:17.500 --> 01:35:23.350 A:middle L:90%
includes clear and distinct ideas. My point is that

1826
01:35:23.350 --> 01:35:25.880 A:middle L:90%
it seems that what I'm hearing is, in a

1827
01:35:25.880 --> 01:35:29.960 A:middle L:90%
way, you are reproducing the persona of the philosopher

1828
01:35:30.840 --> 01:35:32.829 A:middle L:90%
of the of the Let's say, the early 20th

1829
01:35:32.829 --> 01:35:42.569 A:middle L:90%
century analytical philosopher, uh, who has reinterpreted Cambodian

1830
01:35:42.579 --> 01:35:50.789 A:middle L:90%
German model that once the philosophers just to occupy a

1831
01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:57.029 A:middle L:90%
positions of authority by virtue of their abilities to articulate

1832
01:35:57.029 --> 01:36:00.250 A:middle L:90%
, to clarify, to articulate the clear and distinct

1833
01:36:00.250 --> 01:36:00.949 A:middle L:90%
ideas. This is Gary down again, by the

1834
01:36:00.949 --> 01:36:05.109 A:middle L:90%
way of your, uh and, uh and so

1835
01:36:05.109 --> 01:36:09.529 A:middle L:90%
in your talk here and in your work, you

1836
01:36:09.529 --> 01:36:12.760 A:middle L:90%
know, you're calling for a new kind of articulation

1837
01:36:12.760 --> 01:36:14.420 A:middle L:90%
, a new kind of articulation, and, you

1838
01:36:14.420 --> 01:36:16.500 A:middle L:90%
know, and I get that and it's it's achievable

1839
01:36:16.510 --> 01:36:19.329 A:middle L:90%
. Great. At the same time. I mean

1840
01:36:19.340 --> 01:36:23.479 A:middle L:90%
, there's a journal called social epistemology that has him

1841
01:36:23.479 --> 01:36:27.449 A:middle L:90%
at the word policy. Um, I mean,

1842
01:36:27.930 --> 01:36:30.729 A:middle L:90%
would it be a fair set of practices for the

1843
01:36:30.739 --> 01:36:35.819 A:middle L:90%
field of social epistemology to get down and dirty in

1844
01:36:35.829 --> 01:36:43.560 A:middle L:90%
all kinds of arenas of knowledge, production and expression

1845
01:36:43.729 --> 01:36:45.590 A:middle L:90%
? Um, include, building metrics happens all the

1846
01:36:45.590 --> 01:36:47.159 A:middle L:90%
time. Well, the metric stuff, this is

1847
01:36:47.159 --> 01:36:48.779 A:middle L:90%
the thing. Metrics is a kind of a taboo

1848
01:36:48.779 --> 01:36:50.659 A:middle L:90%
subject with a lot of people, But but Francis

1849
01:36:50.659 --> 01:36:55.359 A:middle L:90%
is part of that culture. I'm the metrics guy

1850
01:36:55.369 --> 01:36:58.300 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, for the court 12 bird. I

1851
01:36:58.310 --> 01:37:01.319 A:middle L:90%
know lots of metrics. I cognos the bill metrics

1852
01:37:01.539 --> 01:37:05.529 A:middle L:90%
dashboard kpi dashboards. Look, I don't know.

1853
01:37:05.529 --> 01:37:10.060 A:middle L:90%
I mean, I don't know what you would social

1854
01:37:10.060 --> 01:37:13.069 A:middle L:90%
system ologists. Aren't these ivory tower philosophers? I

1855
01:37:13.069 --> 01:37:14.930 A:middle L:90%
think you should, in terms of the people who've

1856
01:37:14.930 --> 01:37:16.670 A:middle L:90%
been responding here who have been among the most kind

1857
01:37:16.670 --> 01:37:20.029 A:middle L:90%
of energetic members of this field, none of them

1858
01:37:20.029 --> 01:37:24.300 A:middle L:90%
are. Even though we all have philosophical trading,

1859
01:37:24.300 --> 01:37:28.350 A:middle L:90%
none of us are conventionally philosophers at all. But

1860
01:37:28.350 --> 01:37:31.449 A:middle L:90%
the way the rhetorical structure of your argument, in

1861
01:37:31.449 --> 01:37:35.329 A:middle L:90%
a way was was philosophical in content. It was

1862
01:37:35.329 --> 01:37:42.319 A:middle L:90%
a call for for reimagining, uh, the develop

1863
01:37:42.319 --> 01:37:45.449 A:middle L:90%
a new conception of the local arts. Yes,

1864
01:37:45.460 --> 01:37:49.970 A:middle L:90%
Um, and with the eye, with a kind

1865
01:37:49.970 --> 01:37:56.960 A:middle L:90%
of pre supposition that once conceptualized, it will diffuse

1866
01:37:57.930 --> 01:37:59.920 A:middle L:90%
. No, we don't. We don't consider that

1867
01:37:59.920 --> 01:38:00.819 A:middle L:90%
is obvious at all. In fact, that this

1868
01:38:00.819 --> 01:38:02.899 A:middle L:90%
is where SPS does make a difference, right?

1869
01:38:02.909 --> 01:38:06.229 A:middle L:90%
I mean the question. Look again, Let's go

1870
01:38:06.229 --> 01:38:09.260 A:middle L:90%
through the dialectic one more time, right? The

1871
01:38:09.260 --> 01:38:12.449 A:middle L:90%
philosophers put forward all these kinds of pie in the

1872
01:38:12.449 --> 01:38:14.680 A:middle L:90%
sky norms that might be very attractive, but nobody

1873
01:38:14.680 --> 01:38:16.340 A:middle L:90%
actually enforces them. STS comes along and says nobody's

1874
01:38:16.340 --> 01:38:19.029 A:middle L:90%
enforcing them. Their bullshit, right? What's our

1875
01:38:19.029 --> 01:38:21.390 A:middle L:90%
response? Our response is well, we actually think

1876
01:38:21.390 --> 01:38:25.880 A:middle L:90%
a lot of these norms are worth we're enforcing or

1877
01:38:25.890 --> 01:38:28.279 A:middle L:90%
implementing in some way But now we have to think

1878
01:38:28.279 --> 01:38:30.770 A:middle L:90%
about a clever way of doing it, okay?

1879
01:38:30.779 --> 01:38:31.710 A:middle L:90%
And this is why, for example, a lot

1880
01:38:31.710 --> 01:38:33.409 A:middle L:90%
of us who are in social epistemology and I think

1881
01:38:33.409 --> 01:38:35.220 A:middle L:90%
this is true of most people in the room are

1882
01:38:35.220 --> 01:38:39.409 A:middle L:90%
very keenly instant rhetoric, for example. Okay,

1883
01:38:39.420 --> 01:38:41.699 A:middle L:90%
rhetoric, cause you got to persuade people, right

1884
01:38:41.699 --> 01:38:44.000 A:middle L:90%
? It's not just I mean, I think it's

1885
01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:45.359 A:middle L:90%
the abstraction, the abstract, this of your characterization

1886
01:38:45.359 --> 01:38:47.930 A:middle L:90%
of social epistemology is the problem here. Okay,

1887
01:38:47.930 --> 01:38:49.380 A:middle L:90%
Because in fact, if you look at what social

1888
01:38:49.380 --> 01:38:51.779 A:middle L:90%
system ologists do in practice, right, we are

1889
01:38:51.779 --> 01:38:55.529 A:middle L:90%
constantly in the business, dealing with multiple audiences,

1890
01:38:55.539 --> 01:38:58.560 A:middle L:90%
trying to, as it were, sort of tailor

1891
01:38:58.569 --> 01:39:01.470 A:middle L:90%
these larger visions to particular context. Right? And

1892
01:39:01.470 --> 01:39:03.939 A:middle L:90%
we're doing and we're doing that right. What we're

1893
01:39:03.939 --> 01:39:08.399 A:middle L:90%
not doing is we're not denying the possibility of doing

1894
01:39:08.399 --> 01:39:09.890 A:middle L:90%
it. Okay, which is what S T.

1895
01:39:09.890 --> 01:39:11.979 A:middle L:90%
S. I think it often does. Namely saying

1896
01:39:11.989 --> 01:39:13.720 A:middle L:90%
that doesn't make any sense if you're dealing in a

1897
01:39:13.720 --> 01:39:15.989 A:middle L:90%
local context, to bring in a big idea and

1898
01:39:15.989 --> 01:39:17.170 A:middle L:90%
try to persuade people, but rather you should be

1899
01:39:17.170 --> 01:39:19.529 A:middle L:90%
catering to what the people on the ground already think

1900
01:39:19.539 --> 01:39:21.359 A:middle L:90%
. I'm going to argue that what you just said

1901
01:39:21.359 --> 01:39:27.609 A:middle L:90%
is true for relatively small coterie, uh, elite

1902
01:39:27.619 --> 01:39:30.890 A:middle L:90%
as T. S, um, theorists and their

1903
01:39:30.890 --> 01:39:33.390 A:middle L:90%
followers. But it's not an accurate description of the

1904
01:39:33.390 --> 01:39:39.369 A:middle L:90%
vast majority of STS practitioners take a poll. And

1905
01:39:39.380 --> 01:39:43.449 A:middle L:90%
, uh, well, we're trying to make such

1906
01:39:43.449 --> 01:39:45.760 A:middle L:90%
folks more visible and the work that they do more

1907
01:39:45.760 --> 01:39:48.159 A:middle L:90%
visible. And in that sense, then there is

1908
01:39:48.170 --> 01:39:53.350 A:middle L:90%
a much greater overlap between the actual work being done

1909
01:39:53.350 --> 01:39:56.369 A:middle L:90%
by the vast majority of people who claim the label

1910
01:39:56.369 --> 01:39:59.010 A:middle L:90%
of STS and those who claim the label of social

1911
01:39:59.020 --> 01:40:00.350 A:middle L:90%
system. Well, that's how it started. I

1912
01:40:00.350 --> 01:40:01.869 A:middle L:90%
mean, it did start that way. I mean

1913
01:40:01.869 --> 01:40:04.800 A:middle L:90%
, nobody denies that STS was a very important formative

1914
01:40:04.800 --> 01:40:08.470 A:middle L:90%
factor. In fact, this morning the presentation wasn't

1915
01:40:08.470 --> 01:40:10.689 A:middle L:90%
yours. Your strength. I think it was yours

1916
01:40:10.699 --> 01:40:13.680 A:middle L:90%
that that actually made this very explicit right? In

1917
01:40:13.680 --> 01:40:16.210 A:middle L:90%
the beginning, we were sort of overlapping communities.

1918
01:40:16.220 --> 01:40:18.760 A:middle L:90%
And then the great divide curd right? And you

1919
01:40:18.760 --> 01:40:26.770 A:middle L:90%
guys went into the darkness way. Uh, it

1920
01:40:26.770 --> 01:40:30.939 A:middle L:90%
was like an eclipse followed philosophers into the darkness or

1921
01:40:30.109 --> 01:40:31.289 A:middle L:90%
No, no, no. I'm just saying that

1922
01:40:31.289 --> 01:40:33.140 A:middle L:90%
there was a party of the ways in substance.

1923
01:40:33.699 --> 01:40:35.720 A:middle L:90%
Let's put it that way. Nothing. Question.

1924
01:40:39.590 --> 01:40:45.630 A:middle L:90%
That's good. Thanks. Um, well, talking

1925
01:40:45.630 --> 01:40:47.439 A:middle L:90%
about exactly the same. Yeah, this is David

1926
01:40:47.439 --> 01:40:50.329 A:middle L:90%
Peterson from coming again, Um, touching upon the

1927
01:40:50.329 --> 01:40:51.609 A:middle L:90%
same discussion, I think, of course, we

1928
01:40:51.609 --> 01:40:54.359 A:middle L:90%
can't blame, you know, all bad things in

1929
01:40:54.359 --> 01:40:57.329 A:middle L:90%
the world, too. On STS scholarship, I

1930
01:40:57.340 --> 01:41:06.060 A:middle L:90%
think I think we shouldn't anyway. And that was

1931
01:41:06.060 --> 01:41:10.529 A:middle L:90%
very instructive to paint a couple of years back in

1932
01:41:10.529 --> 01:41:13.609 A:middle L:90%
one of the last journals between Villanova me and Andrew

1933
01:41:13.640 --> 01:41:15.869 A:middle L:90%
Webster brand win on but what they called entering the

1934
01:41:15.869 --> 01:41:18.010 A:middle L:90%
policy room. And some of these people actually had

1935
01:41:18.010 --> 01:41:21.520 A:middle L:90%
a quiet, reflective discussion that I think what what

1936
01:41:21.520 --> 01:41:25.239 A:middle L:90%
he has been doing in Europe has been extremely instrumental

1937
01:41:25.239 --> 01:41:28.670 A:middle L:90%
and actually pushing some of the bootstrapping exercises on really

1938
01:41:28.670 --> 01:41:31.399 A:middle L:90%
understanding how to promote good basic size without actually buying

1939
01:41:31.399 --> 01:41:33.840 A:middle L:90%
in at at all to the linear model. Because

1940
01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:36.010 A:middle L:90%
health care was very instrumental at the beginning of the

1941
01:41:36.010 --> 01:41:40.109 A:middle L:90%
nineties, actually of kind of deconstructing the linear bottle

1942
01:41:40.109 --> 01:41:43.300 A:middle L:90%
but still going into the European Research Council and giving

1943
01:41:43.300 --> 01:41:45.800 A:middle L:90%
voice to some of the extremely necessary kind of knowledge

1944
01:41:45.810 --> 01:41:48.829 A:middle L:90%
generating, you know, exercises that needs to take

1945
01:41:48.829 --> 01:41:53.600 A:middle L:90%
place even within a group of finance ministers or,

1946
01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:56.880 A:middle L:90%
you know, research ministers. So that that discussion

1947
01:41:56.880 --> 01:42:00.939 A:middle L:90%
was extremely helpful. But going to from that reflectivity

1948
01:42:00.939 --> 01:42:03.090 A:middle L:90%
that they were able to display in in in that

1949
01:42:03.090 --> 01:42:05.430 A:middle L:90%
discussion and that some of them also brand win and

1950
01:42:05.430 --> 01:42:09.279 A:middle L:90%
others has done, I mean, yeah, I

1951
01:42:09.279 --> 01:42:11.390 A:middle L:90%
can go on there. I mean, another good

1952
01:42:11.390 --> 01:42:14.699 A:middle L:90%
friend is Alan Alan Irvine, who is now the

1953
01:42:14.710 --> 01:42:16.180 A:middle L:90%
device you know, the D M. Actually in

1954
01:42:16.180 --> 01:42:18.399 A:middle L:90%
in cognition of the research school who has also done

1955
01:42:18.399 --> 01:42:21.409 A:middle L:90%
a tremendous job and kind of bootstrapping dynamiting What's your

1956
01:42:21.409 --> 01:42:24.920 A:middle L:90%
word? Uh, like, you know, sustain

1957
01:42:24.920 --> 01:42:27.090 A:middle L:90%
good good signs in a way, whatever. We

1958
01:42:27.090 --> 01:42:30.260 A:middle L:90%
wanna whatever we mean with that. But so if

1959
01:42:30.260 --> 01:42:32.640 A:middle L:90%
social epistemology is going to kind of have a voice

1960
01:42:32.649 --> 01:42:35.039 A:middle L:90%
in a policy community, I think it's quite important

1961
01:42:35.039 --> 01:42:38.699 A:middle L:90%
to be aware of where the funding is coming from

1962
01:42:38.710 --> 01:42:41.319 A:middle L:90%
and kind of being also much aware of the kind

1963
01:42:41.319 --> 01:42:44.210 A:middle L:90%
of conflict of interest that might be. I see

1964
01:42:44.210 --> 01:42:45.569 A:middle L:90%
that that's one of the big problems about my young

1965
01:42:45.569 --> 01:42:48.930 A:middle L:90%
colleagues and in some branches of STS that they go

1966
01:42:48.930 --> 01:42:51.130 A:middle L:90%
into L C programs. They have a lot of

1967
01:42:51.130 --> 01:42:55.979 A:middle L:90%
funding coming from the same programs that front biotic,

1968
01:42:55.989 --> 01:42:59.619 A:middle L:90%
uh, you know, neurotic by do engineering and

1969
01:42:59.619 --> 01:43:02.039 A:middle L:90%
When you are kind of a an auxiliary scholar to

1970
01:43:02.039 --> 01:43:05.569 A:middle L:90%
a large scale technology program and you get your funding

1971
01:43:05.569 --> 01:43:08.210 A:middle L:90%
from the same program, there is a tendency,

1972
01:43:08.210 --> 01:43:11.539 A:middle L:90%
and I understand that of not biting the hand that

1973
01:43:11.550 --> 01:43:13.960 A:middle L:90%
feeds to. And I think there's a real kind

1974
01:43:13.960 --> 01:43:15.890 A:middle L:90%
of not only like a large scale new, liberal

1975
01:43:15.890 --> 01:43:19.020 A:middle L:90%
kind of conspiracy, but that's just basic human nature

1976
01:43:19.399 --> 01:43:21.770 A:middle L:90%
. And in that way it's It's quite important that

1977
01:43:21.770 --> 01:43:24.609 A:middle L:90%
if you want to do like a good program in

1978
01:43:24.609 --> 01:43:27.880 A:middle L:90%
science policy or, let's say, science organization of

1979
01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:30.380 A:middle L:90%
science governance, it should be kind of set up

1980
01:43:30.390 --> 01:43:32.920 A:middle L:90%
or decide in a way that makes it trust policy

1981
01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:35.770 A:middle L:90%
, and that makes people keep that integrity. And

1982
01:43:35.770 --> 01:43:39.079 A:middle L:90%
it should be also about setting up some ethical rules

1983
01:43:39.079 --> 01:43:41.600 A:middle L:90%
. You just mentioned that some code of conduct of

1984
01:43:41.600 --> 01:43:44.289 A:middle L:90%
disclosing interests of you know like we do like we

1985
01:43:44.289 --> 01:43:46.029 A:middle L:90%
have recently begun to do when we publish articles like

1986
01:43:46.029 --> 01:43:47.979 A:middle L:90%
where you can get your money from, How did

1987
01:43:47.979 --> 01:43:50.319 A:middle L:90%
that money influence the research you have done? And

1988
01:43:50.319 --> 01:43:53.569 A:middle L:90%
I think there's two STS could learn much more of

1989
01:43:53.579 --> 01:43:56.359 A:middle L:90%
doing that, and I think I believe that social

1990
01:43:56.359 --> 01:43:59.109 A:middle L:90%
epistemology could be the kind of exception that you know

1991
01:43:59.109 --> 01:44:00.439 A:middle L:90%
. As you said earlier, this is a do

1992
01:44:00.439 --> 01:44:04.039 A:middle L:90%
it yourself conference. It's crowd sourced by all ourselves

1993
01:44:04.039 --> 01:44:06.050 A:middle L:90%
. That might be a bad thing in big science

1994
01:44:06.050 --> 01:44:08.750 A:middle L:90%
today. Why don't we have a research brand of

1995
01:44:08.760 --> 01:44:11.720 A:middle L:90%
$100,000 to put us all in a nice you know

1996
01:44:11.720 --> 01:44:14.350 A:middle L:90%
, location in the Caribbean? Not to complain about

1997
01:44:14.359 --> 01:44:16.619 A:middle L:90%
? Wait a minute, not from late about lodging

1998
01:44:16.630 --> 01:44:20.380 A:middle L:90%
. So in that sense, I think it's quite

1999
01:44:20.380 --> 01:44:24.640 A:middle L:90%
important to be aware of those constituencies and the way

2000
01:44:24.640 --> 01:44:28.479 A:middle L:90%
we are also kind of material independent, another very

2001
01:44:28.479 --> 01:44:31.100 A:middle L:90%
good insight from STS scholarship itself and that you can

2002
01:44:31.100 --> 01:44:33.149 A:middle L:90%
spill over into the way. You would then design

2003
01:44:33.149 --> 01:44:35.840 A:middle L:90%
the role of associative entomologist in the future, because

2004
01:44:35.840 --> 01:44:40.439 A:middle L:90%
just going into government just going into the Dean's office

2005
01:44:40.449 --> 01:44:43.420 A:middle L:90%
does not necessarily make a big difference because the world

2006
01:44:43.430 --> 01:44:45.460 A:middle L:90%
is full of, uh, you know, uh

2007
01:44:45.470 --> 01:44:48.920 A:middle L:90%
, power relations. I understand that, and I

2008
01:44:48.920 --> 01:44:53.119 A:middle L:90%
think you're absolutely right. I do think, though

2009
01:44:53.590 --> 01:44:55.340 A:middle L:90%
, that it really helps to come in with a

2010
01:44:55.340 --> 01:44:58.069 A:middle L:90%
kind of vision of what you want to accomplish and

2011
01:44:58.069 --> 01:45:00.909 A:middle L:90%
a kind of enough of a kind of, uh

2012
01:45:00.689 --> 01:45:04.840 A:middle L:90%
, expansive rhetorical imagination to be able to understand multiple

2013
01:45:04.840 --> 01:45:09.710 A:middle L:90%
ways in which that vision could be realized. Okay

2014
01:45:09.720 --> 01:45:11.220 A:middle L:90%
, I think that's the kind of thing, in

2015
01:45:11.220 --> 01:45:13.529 A:middle L:90%
a sense, that I actually think that those of

2016
01:45:13.529 --> 01:45:15.189 A:middle L:90%
us here in this room who have been involved with

2017
01:45:15.189 --> 01:45:18.699 A:middle L:90%
the rhetorical side of social epistemology, I think are

2018
01:45:18.710 --> 01:45:21.159 A:middle L:90%
actually quite good in training people in, right.

2019
01:45:21.170 --> 01:45:24.210 A:middle L:90%
So in other words, you don't It doesn't need

2020
01:45:24.210 --> 01:45:26.310 A:middle L:90%
to be so either or, you know, you

2021
01:45:26.310 --> 01:45:27.609 A:middle L:90%
know, if you have a big vision, stay

2022
01:45:27.609 --> 01:45:29.439 A:middle L:90%
away from government because you won't be able to do

2023
01:45:29.439 --> 01:45:31.270 A:middle L:90%
anything, but rather you gotta understand, you gotta

2024
01:45:31.279 --> 01:45:34.510 A:middle L:90%
be rhetorically flexible, which means you have to be

2025
01:45:34.510 --> 01:45:38.600 A:middle L:90%
really clear about what you think is absolutely important.

2026
01:45:38.609 --> 01:45:40.239 A:middle L:90%
And what sorts of things do you think could be

2027
01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:43.079 A:middle L:90%
subject to trade offs and negotiation? Right. And

2028
01:45:43.079 --> 01:45:44.840 A:middle L:90%
we don't and you know that needs to be made

2029
01:45:44.840 --> 01:45:46.800 A:middle L:90%
much more explicit as part of the training, it

2030
01:45:46.800 --> 01:45:48.430 A:middle L:90%
seems to me. But at the end of the

2031
01:45:48.430 --> 01:45:51.239 A:middle L:90%
day, because look, politicians do succeed at this

2032
01:45:51.239 --> 01:45:55.039 A:middle L:90%
kind of stuff. The great ones do. I

2033
01:45:55.039 --> 01:45:57.710 A:middle L:90%
don't see why this can happen in the knowledge business

2034
01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:09.550 A:middle L:90%
. Mhm, Thomas Best Thomas desperately again, governing

2035
01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:11.050 A:middle L:90%
. So I'd like to take up this idea of

2036
01:46:11.050 --> 01:46:14.539 A:middle L:90%
progress that you have a favorable view of human progress

2037
01:46:14.619 --> 01:46:21.430 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, Sorry. I realized a very you're

2038
01:46:21.439 --> 01:46:25.090 A:middle L:90%
very enthusiastic about the active, all the things we

2039
01:46:25.090 --> 01:46:27.270 A:middle L:90%
can do in the activities, I think. I

2040
01:46:27.270 --> 01:46:29.789 A:middle L:90%
mean, Pascal has a great, uh, that

2041
01:46:29.789 --> 01:46:32.199 A:middle L:90%
great aphorism that all the evil in the world results

2042
01:46:32.199 --> 01:46:34.170 A:middle L:90%
from people being able to sit still in a room

2043
01:46:34.180 --> 01:46:36.569 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, which, uh, which, you

2044
01:46:36.569 --> 01:46:39.229 A:middle L:90%
know, a culture person would be able to do

2045
01:46:39.229 --> 01:46:43.170 A:middle L:90%
it just kind of enjoy being themselves. And,

2046
01:46:43.180 --> 01:46:45.619 A:middle L:90%
uh, you know, if nothing important needs to

2047
01:46:45.619 --> 01:46:46.909 A:middle L:90%
get done, then why rush off and do a

2048
01:46:46.909 --> 01:46:49.119 A:middle L:90%
which is not right. And I think that's kind

2049
01:46:49.119 --> 01:46:51.210 A:middle L:90%
of where this comes from. But wouldn't you agree

2050
01:46:51.210 --> 01:46:54.689 A:middle L:90%
? I mean, hard enough of a Marxist to

2051
01:46:54.699 --> 01:47:00.100 A:middle L:90%
agree that the history of industrial progress, right,

2052
01:47:00.109 --> 01:47:04.090 A:middle L:90%
this is isn't just a wonderful story of success.

2053
01:47:04.090 --> 01:47:08.560 A:middle L:90%
And it is the story of exploiting and where exactly

2054
01:47:08.569 --> 01:47:11.189 A:middle L:90%
you look at why we got there and then and

2055
01:47:11.189 --> 01:47:14.609 A:middle L:90%
then casting it into obsolescence. Right? You take

2056
01:47:14.609 --> 01:47:15.979 A:middle L:90%
certain take, you take craft skill. You turn

2057
01:47:15.979 --> 01:47:19.329 A:middle L:90%
it into labor, right? And then you wear

2058
01:47:19.329 --> 01:47:21.880 A:middle L:90%
out the labor and then you replace it with automation

2059
01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:27.000 A:middle L:90%
. And then and then the people involved after generations

2060
01:47:27.000 --> 01:47:29.359 A:middle L:90%
of being formed in that way to simply become obsolete

2061
01:47:29.359 --> 01:47:30.750 A:middle L:90%
. And then we don't worry too much about that

2062
01:47:30.760 --> 01:47:33.409 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, now isn't the same thing. Are

2063
01:47:33.409 --> 01:47:36.149 A:middle L:90%
we looking at the same kind of thing in the

2064
01:47:36.149 --> 01:47:38.989 A:middle L:90%
intellectual world? Are we taking the mind of the

2065
01:47:38.989 --> 01:47:42.159 A:middle L:90%
intellectual? And then first? And this is the

2066
01:47:42.170 --> 01:47:44.050 A:middle L:90%
period. We're probably now we're coming to the end

2067
01:47:44.050 --> 01:47:47.050 A:middle L:90%
of of completely destroying it, wearing it out over

2068
01:47:47.060 --> 01:47:50.239 A:middle L:90%
over standing it within its own current capacity over standing

2069
01:47:50.239 --> 01:47:55.859 A:middle L:90%
. It's actual brain capacity. So we have depression

2070
01:47:55.859 --> 01:47:58.600 A:middle L:90%
. We have stress. We have, you know

2071
01:47:58.979 --> 01:48:01.329 A:middle L:90%
, wide range of issues there. Exactly. And

2072
01:48:01.329 --> 01:48:03.409 A:middle L:90%
then But then hey, great. It doesn't matter

2073
01:48:03.409 --> 01:48:04.859 A:middle L:90%
, because at some point, we won't even need

2074
01:48:04.859 --> 01:48:08.359 A:middle L:90%
those brains. Uh, we'll just, you know

2075
01:48:08.369 --> 01:48:10.909 A:middle L:90%
, automate them out of and then cast all those

2076
01:48:10.909 --> 01:48:15.800 A:middle L:90%
brain Having things often tops isn't that man speaks,

2077
01:48:15.810 --> 01:48:21.670 A:middle L:90%
uh, mhm. Fuck. But this is you

2078
01:48:21.670 --> 01:48:24.800 A:middle L:90%
have to defend. You kinda have to defend the

2079
01:48:24.800 --> 01:48:27.069 A:middle L:90%
vision in those terms. You have to say no

2080
01:48:27.079 --> 01:48:29.090 A:middle L:90%
. We're getting We've gotten smarter. So we're not

2081
01:48:29.100 --> 01:48:30.840 A:middle L:90%
going to do the same thing. Yes, and

2082
01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:34.239 A:middle L:90%
I don't think that's so unreasonable, actually. Okay

2083
01:48:34.250 --> 01:48:35.979 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, in other words, I do believe

2084
01:48:35.979 --> 01:48:39.189 A:middle L:90%
that it is possible to learn from the past,

2085
01:48:39.670 --> 01:48:41.279 A:middle L:90%
right? And in fact, I think we're gonna

2086
01:48:41.279 --> 01:48:43.329 A:middle L:90%
have a greater capacity in the future to learn from

2087
01:48:43.329 --> 01:48:45.829 A:middle L:90%
the past, right? If we actually organize our

2088
01:48:45.829 --> 01:48:48.159 A:middle L:90%
knowledge gathering systems in the right way, which is

2089
01:48:48.159 --> 01:48:50.489 A:middle L:90%
a big if, but we're beginning to get them

2090
01:48:50.869 --> 01:48:53.760 A:middle L:90%
so we can do this, Okay? I mean

2091
01:48:53.760 --> 01:48:56.659 A:middle L:90%
, I think it's I mean, this issue is

2092
01:48:56.659 --> 01:49:00.100 A:middle L:90%
really hard to kind of judge from a historical standpoint

2093
01:49:00.109 --> 01:49:03.340 A:middle L:90%
, because it's something that I I talked about very

2094
01:49:03.340 --> 01:49:06.579 A:middle L:90%
early on, even in my PhD about adaptive preference

2095
01:49:06.579 --> 01:49:10.449 A:middle L:90%
formation in social psychology. It's been a theme kind

2096
01:49:10.449 --> 01:49:12.220 A:middle L:90%
of undercurrent, a lot of my work. And

2097
01:49:12.220 --> 01:49:15.010 A:middle L:90%
this is the idea from social psychology Leon testing or

2098
01:49:15.010 --> 01:49:16.899 A:middle L:90%
people like this, right? It's the idea that

2099
01:49:16.909 --> 01:49:20.289 A:middle L:90%
people end up seeing what is most likely to happen

2100
01:49:20.300 --> 01:49:21.989 A:middle L:90%
as the thing that ought to happen, and so

2101
01:49:21.989 --> 01:49:25.579 A:middle L:90%
they're quite happy when it happens. Okay, so

2102
01:49:25.579 --> 01:49:28.640 A:middle L:90%
in other words, all of these prognostications that the

2103
01:49:28.649 --> 01:49:30.729 A:middle L:90%
few people in the future will not be able to

2104
01:49:30.729 --> 01:49:31.649 A:middle L:90%
live the same kind of vibes that we can live

2105
01:49:31.649 --> 01:49:33.539 A:middle L:90%
today. Well, that's bullshit, because people in

2106
01:49:33.539 --> 01:49:35.229 A:middle L:90%
the future will not even know who the hell we

2107
01:49:35.229 --> 01:49:36.829 A:middle L:90%
are. And they'll be happy to live the lives

2108
01:49:36.829 --> 01:49:40.279 A:middle L:90%
they already have, because that's the only ones they

2109
01:49:40.279 --> 01:49:43.789 A:middle L:90%
know. Okay. And this happens over and over

2110
01:49:43.789 --> 01:49:45.390 A:middle L:90%
again. So, for example, if you look

2111
01:49:45.390 --> 01:49:45.739 A:middle L:90%
at the I mean, this is this is one

2112
01:49:45.739 --> 01:49:47.310 A:middle L:90%
of this is one of the issues that comes out

2113
01:49:47.310 --> 01:49:49.500 A:middle L:90%
very strong when you look at the history of technology

2114
01:49:49.500 --> 01:49:53.680 A:middle L:90%
adoption. So the automobile, lots of complaints about

2115
01:49:53.680 --> 01:49:57.340 A:middle L:90%
the environment being destroyed, pollution in the air.

2116
01:49:57.350 --> 01:50:00.000 A:middle L:90%
We're gonna lose our touch to lose our contact with

2117
01:50:00.000 --> 01:50:01.279 A:middle L:90%
nature. Of course, all those things were true

2118
01:50:01.859 --> 01:50:03.680 A:middle L:90%
, right? But by nine by you know,

2119
01:50:03.689 --> 01:50:06.539 A:middle L:90%
by 1960 when we actually started suffering those problems,

2120
01:50:06.609 --> 01:50:11.149 A:middle L:90%
the advantages of the automobile had provided We seem to

2121
01:50:11.149 --> 01:50:12.909 A:middle L:90%
outweigh these. And so we end up coming with

2122
01:50:12.909 --> 01:50:15.109 A:middle L:90%
some technological fixes to deal with the matter. And

2123
01:50:15.109 --> 01:50:17.489 A:middle L:90%
this is human history. Now, you might say

2124
01:50:17.489 --> 01:50:19.180 A:middle L:90%
, Oh, my God, we shouldn't have introduced

2125
01:50:19.180 --> 01:50:23.699 A:middle L:90%
the car. Well, I'm sorry, but in

2126
01:50:23.699 --> 01:50:25.619 A:middle L:90%
a sense, you know, if you want to

2127
01:50:25.619 --> 01:50:27.510 A:middle L:90%
talk, if we're talking about what it means to

2128
01:50:27.510 --> 01:50:30.180 A:middle L:90%
be a human being, okay, then I'm afraid

2129
01:50:30.180 --> 01:50:32.319 A:middle L:90%
I would say that being a human being is to

2130
01:50:32.319 --> 01:50:35.090 A:middle L:90%
be a being of this kind of the one who

2131
01:50:35.090 --> 01:50:39.430 A:middle L:90%
actually goes through this kind of success with adaptive preference

2132
01:50:39.430 --> 01:50:43.880 A:middle L:90%
formation in a way that actually enables it to flourish

2133
01:50:43.890 --> 01:50:46.250 A:middle L:90%
over the planet. Maybe even in the cosmos.

2134
01:50:46.250 --> 01:50:48.770 A:middle L:90%
Mo generally. And And then you have to say

2135
01:50:48.770 --> 01:50:51.170 A:middle L:90%
, Why is this why does this strategy work?

2136
01:50:51.180 --> 01:50:57.770 A:middle L:90%
Because by your lights, it shouldn't work that we

2137
01:50:57.770 --> 01:51:01.430 A:middle L:90%
don't We don't disagree about the the the accomplishments as

2138
01:51:01.430 --> 01:51:03.289 A:middle L:90%
a war, right? Like I agree that there's

2139
01:51:03.300 --> 01:51:05.819 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we re who has dominated what

2140
01:51:05.819 --> 01:51:09.439 A:middle L:90%
has dominated. What is one hour what is lost

2141
01:51:09.449 --> 01:51:11.789 A:middle L:90%
? Um, I mean, I would challenge you

2142
01:51:11.789 --> 01:51:14.199 A:middle L:90%
. See, I just, uh I don't think

2143
01:51:14.199 --> 01:51:17.520 A:middle L:90%
it's immediately apparent that world full of cars the way

2144
01:51:17.520 --> 01:51:23.149 A:middle L:90%
it is now is aesthetically immediately pleasing, you know

2145
01:51:23.149 --> 01:51:26.250 A:middle L:90%
, And and I think this is what we forgot

2146
01:51:26.250 --> 01:51:28.359 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, I think we've led technology is

2147
01:51:28.359 --> 01:51:30.909 A:middle L:90%
an old Norman Mailer point. We've led technology,

2148
01:51:30.909 --> 01:51:33.289 A:middle L:90%
give us much more power and much less pleasure,

2149
01:51:33.659 --> 01:51:36.390 A:middle L:90%
right? So I think I think we are,

2150
01:51:36.399 --> 01:51:39.569 A:middle L:90%
and I think that's a question that freedom of the

2151
01:51:39.569 --> 01:51:41.569 A:middle L:90%
roads, people a lot of people look, I

2152
01:51:41.569 --> 01:51:42.899 A:middle L:90%
mean, one of the things from the standpoint of

2153
01:51:42.899 --> 01:51:45.539 A:middle L:90%
selling cars was the idea of the freedom that one

2154
01:51:45.539 --> 01:51:46.680 A:middle L:90%
had by being able to just go. I speak

2155
01:51:46.680 --> 01:51:48.119 A:middle L:90%
as someone who never learned how to drive. I

2156
01:51:48.130 --> 01:51:53.710 A:middle L:90%
have no particular actually right about bicycle. I never

2157
01:51:53.710 --> 01:51:55.149 A:middle L:90%
learned how to ride a bicycle. You know,

2158
01:51:55.159 --> 01:52:01.550 A:middle L:90%
I understand. I'm speaking from a touch I marking

2159
01:52:01.550 --> 01:52:03.520 A:middle L:90%
start. But, I mean, we would also

2160
01:52:03.520 --> 01:52:05.670 A:middle L:90%
, you know, we love watching movies, eating

2161
01:52:05.680 --> 01:52:08.340 A:middle L:90%
ice cream with, you know, all this kind

2162
01:52:08.340 --> 01:52:11.859 A:middle L:90%
of sugars pleasant, pleasant in that way. And

2163
01:52:11.859 --> 01:52:14.909 A:middle L:90%
not in a rich, deep, long term humanistic

2164
01:52:14.920 --> 01:52:16.609 A:middle L:90%
Pascal Ian kind of boy, right? And so

2165
01:52:16.619 --> 01:52:19.420 A:middle L:90%
my point is, you begging the question, I

2166
01:52:19.430 --> 01:52:21.770 A:middle L:90%
understand that, but But my point is just I

2167
01:52:21.770 --> 01:52:24.819 A:middle L:90%
mean, wouldn't because I don't think I don't know

2168
01:52:24.829 --> 01:52:28.779 A:middle L:90%
. My aesthetics obviously aren't the only ones account on

2169
01:52:28.779 --> 01:52:32.430 A:middle L:90%
suggesting is could social epistemology and a university administered by

2170
01:52:32.430 --> 01:52:36.220 A:middle L:90%
social system ologists not maybe slow down the process enough

2171
01:52:36.229 --> 01:52:42.369 A:middle L:90%
to at least allow alternatives that aren't so, uh

2172
01:52:42.380 --> 01:52:45.479 A:middle L:90%
, for a very small class of people, lucrative

2173
01:52:45.489 --> 01:52:45.600 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, I think one of the reasons

2174
01:52:45.600 --> 01:52:48.569 A:middle L:90%
to one of the reasons to sort of be suspicious

2175
01:52:48.579 --> 01:52:53.710 A:middle L:90%
of the progress that you're celebrating is that it's all

2176
01:52:53.710 --> 01:52:57.550 A:middle L:90%
progress that that is highly modified. And so there's

2177
01:52:57.550 --> 01:53:00.770 A:middle L:90%
a lot of profit extraction. Whereas, uh,

2178
01:53:00.779 --> 01:53:03.239 A:middle L:90%
you know, other pleasures which are much less,

2179
01:53:03.250 --> 01:53:06.920 A:middle L:90%
um modifiable, are getting crowded out by, for

2180
01:53:06.920 --> 01:53:10.359 A:middle L:90%
example, the pleasure of the freedom of the road

2181
01:53:10.359 --> 01:53:13.149 A:middle L:90%
, which yeah, right. Maybe there's other things

2182
01:53:13.149 --> 01:53:15.270 A:middle L:90%
that would make skill just as free and would be

2183
01:53:15.649 --> 01:53:19.779 A:middle L:90%
so cheap or completely free, completely free. Uh

2184
01:53:19.789 --> 01:53:23.250 A:middle L:90%
, that, uh, that there would be no

2185
01:53:23.250 --> 01:53:25.630 A:middle L:90%
profit in. And so because as soon as you

2186
01:53:25.630 --> 01:53:28.029 A:middle L:90%
have something that was profit and then you have interest

2187
01:53:28.029 --> 01:53:31.430 A:middle L:90%
groups that will lobby for certain forms of patrol in

2188
01:53:31.430 --> 01:53:35.529 A:middle L:90%
it and that's really what's pushing these certain kinds of

2189
01:53:35.539 --> 01:53:39.010 A:middle L:90%
progress, this is look to the forefront. I

2190
01:53:39.010 --> 01:53:43.649 A:middle L:90%
think this is true to a certain extent, but

2191
01:53:43.649 --> 01:53:45.640 A:middle L:90%
the degree to which you can lay it all on

2192
01:53:45.640 --> 01:53:48.590 A:middle L:90%
the doorstep of big business over the years diminishes as

2193
01:53:48.590 --> 01:53:50.930 A:middle L:90%
more and more people quite voluntarily buy into it for

2194
01:53:50.930 --> 01:53:55.630 A:middle L:90%
their own reasons. Okay. And this is where

2195
01:53:55.630 --> 01:53:58.180 A:middle L:90%
I think you know, one has to be kind

2196
01:53:58.180 --> 01:54:02.760 A:middle L:90%
of a little open minded about people's abilities to make

2197
01:54:02.760 --> 01:54:06.050 A:middle L:90%
decisions for themselves. Okay? It may be true

2198
01:54:06.060 --> 01:54:09.350 A:middle L:90%
that it was a very strong initial push from the

2199
01:54:09.350 --> 01:54:12.649 A:middle L:90%
corporate sector that got the cars all on the road

2200
01:54:12.649 --> 01:54:15.039 A:middle L:90%
and everything. Um, but after a while,

2201
01:54:15.039 --> 01:54:17.109 A:middle L:90%
when it becomes normalized and people take it up for

2202
01:54:17.109 --> 01:54:19.600 A:middle L:90%
their own reasons and things like this, I don't

2203
01:54:19.600 --> 01:54:23.119 A:middle L:90%
think you can quite blame it on just the profit

2204
01:54:23.119 --> 01:54:25.430 A:middle L:90%
motive of the corporation. Some other things that come

2205
01:54:25.430 --> 01:54:27.600 A:middle L:90%
into play at that point where it's become kind of

2206
01:54:27.600 --> 01:54:30.680 A:middle L:90%
integral to people's lives. Tobacco, right to bet

2207
01:54:30.680 --> 01:54:32.819 A:middle L:90%
. Well, tobacco. Yeah, actually, that's

2208
01:54:32.829 --> 01:54:35.869 A:middle L:90%
a controversial, but it might be a good example

2209
01:54:36.039 --> 01:54:40.270 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, I mean, and so now again

2210
01:54:41.340 --> 01:54:43.789 A:middle L:90%
, you know your alternative views of where we should

2211
01:54:43.789 --> 01:54:46.909 A:middle L:90%
be getting pleasure from It seems to me it's perfectly

2212
01:54:46.920 --> 01:54:51.439 A:middle L:90%
you're perfectly free to try to promote these ideas and

2213
01:54:51.449 --> 01:54:55.130 A:middle L:90%
organize people and try to get the corporate interests involved

2214
01:54:55.130 --> 01:54:58.930 A:middle L:90%
that could actually destabilize whatever the automobile industry and tobacco

2215
01:54:58.930 --> 01:55:01.640 A:middle L:90%
. Nobody's stopping that actually take tobacco and marijuana.

2216
01:55:01.649 --> 01:55:05.520 A:middle L:90%
I mean, those are two related sets of sure

2217
01:55:05.529 --> 01:55:09.350 A:middle L:90%
, obviously interests, corporate interests. And I don't

2218
01:55:09.359 --> 01:55:11.750 A:middle L:90%
I don't I don't deny the initial causes. I'm

2219
01:55:11.750 --> 01:55:14.050 A:middle L:90%
just saying I'm not quite sure what point you're making

2220
01:55:14.060 --> 01:55:16.000 A:middle L:90%
other than just complaining, right? Because if you

2221
01:55:16.000 --> 01:55:18.369 A:middle L:90%
really want to change the balance, if you really

2222
01:55:18.369 --> 01:55:20.449 A:middle L:90%
want to change the balance, that it seems to

2223
01:55:20.449 --> 01:55:23.149 A:middle L:90%
be there, you know? Look, one of

2224
01:55:23.149 --> 01:55:24.439 A:middle L:90%
the things that you you know, one of the

2225
01:55:24.439 --> 01:55:26.909 A:middle L:90%
things that they say the military is you can learn

2226
01:55:26.909 --> 01:55:28.930 A:middle L:90%
from the winners, right? And so you look

2227
01:55:28.930 --> 01:55:31.270 A:middle L:90%
and see how exactly did the automobile industry managed to

2228
01:55:31.340 --> 01:55:32.880 A:middle L:90%
get to where it is? How did the tobacco

2229
01:55:32.880 --> 01:55:34.590 A:middle L:90%
industry gets and where it is? And if you've

2230
01:55:34.590 --> 01:55:39.699 A:middle L:90%
got some competitor that can compete on that front right

2231
01:55:39.699 --> 01:55:41.680 A:middle L:90%
, then you should think about how you can organise

2232
01:55:41.680 --> 01:55:44.630 A:middle L:90%
yourselves to actually deal with them at that level,

2233
01:55:44.640 --> 01:55:45.960 A:middle L:90%
Not just to regret the fact that what you want

2234
01:55:45.960 --> 01:55:53.300 A:middle L:90%
it to happen, I go, I get the

2235
01:55:53.300 --> 01:56:00.750 A:middle L:90%
mic. I would argue, uh, I mean

2236
01:56:01.430 --> 01:56:03.920 A:middle L:90%
, yeah, the reason the reason I brought up

2237
01:56:03.930 --> 01:56:09.380 A:middle L:90%
as an example the tobacco marijuana kind of issue is

2238
01:56:09.380 --> 01:56:11.939 A:middle L:90%
that obviously, um, in that case, we're

2239
01:56:11.939 --> 01:56:14.689 A:middle L:90%
not talking about making a free choice. We're talking

2240
01:56:14.689 --> 01:56:18.029 A:middle L:90%
about a radically uneven playing field between two sources of

2241
01:56:18.029 --> 01:56:20.840 A:middle L:90%
pleasure, and most people look into this. You

2242
01:56:20.850 --> 01:56:24.529 A:middle L:90%
realize that you know, one of them is really

2243
01:56:24.529 --> 01:56:28.319 A:middle L:90%
easy to make yourself right, and it really it

2244
01:56:28.329 --> 01:56:30.909 A:middle L:90%
? Yeah, yeah, you can have it in

2245
01:56:30.909 --> 01:56:33.579 A:middle L:90%
their backyard. It's a It's a really simple weed

2246
01:56:33.579 --> 01:56:36.420 A:middle L:90%
and so forth. So it's very hard to extract

2247
01:56:36.420 --> 01:56:40.979 A:middle L:90%
profit from that pleasure right where there's this other pleasure

2248
01:56:40.989 --> 01:56:43.899 A:middle L:90%
, which you have to have industrial production to give

2249
01:56:43.899 --> 01:56:45.789 A:middle L:90%
to people. And so now why it was one

2250
01:56:45.789 --> 01:56:46.819 A:middle L:90%
of them favored by the legal framework and the other

2251
01:56:46.819 --> 01:56:48.550 A:middle L:90%
one not right. That's I mean, I give

2252
01:56:48.560 --> 01:56:50.729 A:middle L:90%
, you know, leave aside all the other industries

2253
01:56:50.729 --> 01:56:57.229 A:middle L:90%
that have profited off Prohibition, right? So I

2254
01:56:57.239 --> 01:56:59.399 A:middle L:90%
would just say it's not just because it's not just

2255
01:56:59.399 --> 01:57:00.729 A:middle L:90%
looking to see how they do, because the way

2256
01:57:00.729 --> 01:57:01.670 A:middle L:90%
the winners did it was they took control of the

2257
01:57:01.670 --> 01:57:09.579 A:middle L:90%
policy, right? Well, that's what it is

2258
01:57:09.579 --> 01:57:11.069 A:middle L:90%
. That's true. Then that is what I'm suggesting

2259
01:57:11.069 --> 01:57:12.810 A:middle L:90%
, right? So I'm looking at the winners and

2260
01:57:12.810 --> 01:57:14.510 A:middle L:90%
how do they do? And what do we need

2261
01:57:14.510 --> 01:57:16.670 A:middle L:90%
to do to make knowledge in the old school?

2262
01:57:16.670 --> 01:57:19.859 A:middle L:90%
Kind of writing a paragraph a day kind of possible

2263
01:57:19.859 --> 01:57:21.350 A:middle L:90%
again. And that is we have to take control

2264
01:57:21.350 --> 01:57:25.289 A:middle L:90%
of the policy. Yes. There you go.

2265
01:57:25.300 --> 01:57:29.890 A:middle L:90%
Thank you. Thank you. Can I make a

2266
01:57:29.899 --> 01:57:33.149 A:middle L:90%
comment? Sure. I just wanted to make this

2267
01:57:33.149 --> 01:57:35.479 A:middle L:90%
scary down again. I wanted to make a last

2268
01:57:35.479 --> 01:57:42.220 A:middle L:90%
comment about anyway. Yes, here it is.

2269
01:57:42.229 --> 01:57:45.250 A:middle L:90%
Um, there's in my judgment. There is social

2270
01:57:45.250 --> 01:57:53.180 A:middle L:90%
epistemology building the practices of STS scholars of all strikes

2271
01:57:53.180 --> 01:57:57.479 A:middle L:90%
and at all levels. It might not live in

2272
01:57:57.479 --> 01:58:02.609 A:middle L:90%
the what gets published in leading journals or in prominent

2273
01:58:02.609 --> 01:58:06.560 A:middle L:90%
books, but that is not the sum total of

2274
01:58:06.560 --> 01:58:12.060 A:middle L:90%
what STS scholars do. You mentioned the production of

2275
01:58:12.069 --> 01:58:17.039 A:middle L:90%
students being a key product. This STS scholars involved

2276
01:58:17.050 --> 01:58:21.270 A:middle L:90%
in teaching have to figure out how to reach audiences

2277
01:58:21.270 --> 01:58:25.649 A:middle L:90%
, just as you described earlier how you reach reach

2278
01:58:25.659 --> 01:58:30.600 A:middle L:90%
audiences. And so I mean, I share a

2279
01:58:30.600 --> 01:58:35.670 A:middle L:90%
similar dissatisfaction with some say, self characterizations that live

2280
01:58:35.670 --> 01:58:43.170 A:middle L:90%
in in STS. But maintain that what is celebrated

2281
01:58:43.170 --> 01:58:45.470 A:middle L:90%
, let's say, in the most common and professional

2282
01:58:45.470 --> 01:58:50.439 A:middle L:90%
spaces, captures only a small portion of what STS

2283
01:58:50.439 --> 01:58:56.229 A:middle L:90%
scholars actually do. And so this is now a

2284
01:58:56.239 --> 01:58:59.930 A:middle L:90%
description of what I'm trying to accomplish this current president

2285
01:58:59.939 --> 01:59:02.619 A:middle L:90%
of the forest to make more visible. Those practices

2286
01:59:02.619 --> 01:59:08.850 A:middle L:90%
that include calling attention to our hearts are taking on

2287
01:59:08.850 --> 01:59:16.229 A:middle L:90%
board um, facing an articulating normative question. Thank

2288
01:59:16.229 --> 01:59:18.850 A:middle L:90%
you. I appreciate that. It's good that you

2289
01:59:18.850 --> 01:59:27.640 A:middle L:90%
have it on tape. I'll be saying that.

2290
01:59:28.020 --> 01:59:31.039 A:middle L:90%
Mhm. Yeah, so presses videos independent researcher.

2291
01:59:31.420 --> 01:59:34.890 A:middle L:90%
I want to bring this this discussion back to the

2292
01:59:34.890 --> 01:59:38.659 A:middle L:90%
issue of knowledge and knowledge production, Especially now in

2293
01:59:38.659 --> 01:59:42.109 A:middle L:90%
the days of Google YouTube, everybody can learn all

2294
01:59:42.109 --> 01:59:45.609 A:middle L:90%
sorts of things. Um, David Weinberger wrote a

2295
01:59:45.619 --> 01:59:47.510 A:middle L:90%
book titled His book Is Too Big to Know.

2296
01:59:47.520 --> 01:59:51.239 A:middle L:90%
Rethinking Knowledge. Now that the facts are the facts

2297
01:59:51.250 --> 01:59:54.800 A:middle L:90%
, experts everywhere and as far as person in the

2298
01:59:54.810 --> 01:59:59.920 A:middle L:90%
group is the That's Not like Google. Yeah,

2299
01:59:59.930 --> 02:00:03.229 A:middle L:90%
So how does how does the social epistemology is Differentiate

2300
02:00:03.239 --> 02:00:06.829 A:middle L:90%
him or herself from something like that? Right where

2301
02:00:06.829 --> 02:00:11.680 A:middle L:90%
you have the road? That's the knowledge expert as

2302
02:00:11.680 --> 02:00:15.300 A:middle L:90%
well. Thanks for coming guard. Appreciate you in

2303
02:00:15.300 --> 02:00:23.090 A:middle L:90%
Buenos Aires. Um, look, I I think

2304
02:00:23.100 --> 02:00:25.319 A:middle L:90%
look, I mean, I think the most the

2305
02:00:25.329 --> 02:00:27.539 A:middle L:90%
most direct way. I mean, some of the

2306
02:00:27.539 --> 02:00:29.819 A:middle L:90%
issues that we were talking about this morning with regard

2307
02:00:29.819 --> 02:00:31.630 A:middle L:90%
to designing smart environments, which you you brought up

2308
02:00:32.109 --> 02:00:34.090 A:middle L:90%
, I think, tries to give us kind of

2309
02:00:34.090 --> 02:00:38.649 A:middle L:90%
social epistemology spin. And, uh, Laura Cabrera

2310
02:00:38.659 --> 02:00:41.739 A:middle L:90%
, who's his name, was mentioned this morning with

2311
02:00:41.739 --> 02:00:44.810 A:middle L:90%
regard to the vision hearing stuff. Her work actually

2312
02:00:44.810 --> 02:00:47.729 A:middle L:90%
is about, you know, smart environments and trying

2313
02:00:47.729 --> 02:00:49.569 A:middle L:90%
to set up situations where people can be made more

2314
02:00:49.569 --> 02:00:53.529 A:middle L:90%
knowledgeable. But she has a much, uh,

2315
02:00:53.539 --> 02:00:56.390 A:middle L:90%
this is where Thomas would have problems because she's willing

2316
02:00:56.390 --> 02:01:00.479 A:middle L:90%
to contemplate all kinds of strategies for designing smart environments

2317
02:01:00.489 --> 02:01:03.390 A:middle L:90%
, including things like smart dust. She's into smart

2318
02:01:03.390 --> 02:01:06.850 A:middle L:90%
dust, right? Well, we'll dust is everywhere

2319
02:01:06.850 --> 02:01:09.390 A:middle L:90%
, right? And we can actually pick up a

2320
02:01:09.390 --> 02:01:12.680 A:middle L:90%
lot of data, potentially from dust, right on

2321
02:01:12.680 --> 02:01:14.949 A:middle L:90%
people and things and what they use and so forth

2322
02:01:14.960 --> 02:01:16.399 A:middle L:90%
. And if this were kind of organized and,

2323
02:01:16.409 --> 02:01:18.689 A:middle L:90%
you know, I read in some sophisticated big data

2324
02:01:18.689 --> 02:01:20.729 A:middle L:90%
kind of way, right, we might be able

2325
02:01:20.729 --> 02:01:24.800 A:middle L:90%
to then provide adequate feedback, too, you know

2326
02:01:24.800 --> 02:01:28.729 A:middle L:90%
, enable people to improve their behavior in certain environments

2327
02:01:28.739 --> 02:01:30.159 A:middle L:90%
, right? So she's willing to go the whole

2328
02:01:30.159 --> 02:01:31.760 A:middle L:90%
gamut right from the normal ways in which we design

2329
02:01:31.760 --> 02:01:34.680 A:middle L:90%
smart environments to this kind of stuff. But I

2330
02:01:34.680 --> 02:01:36.750 A:middle L:90%
think that's kind of weird, but But again,

2331
02:01:36.760 --> 02:01:40.170 A:middle L:90%
it seems to be the social epistemology what, what

2332
02:01:40.180 --> 02:01:41.439 A:middle L:90%
, what they will try to do. And this

2333
02:01:41.439 --> 02:01:44.430 A:middle L:90%
is why there is an argument here for professionalization,

2334
02:01:44.439 --> 02:01:46.670 A:middle L:90%
namely, that we will be much more explicit about

2335
02:01:46.670 --> 02:01:48.960 A:middle L:90%
the ends to which this is done. Because,

2336
02:01:48.960 --> 02:01:51.470 A:middle L:90%
of course, designing smart environments and all the things

2337
02:01:51.470 --> 02:01:54.680 A:middle L:90%
that people fear about Silicon Valley has to do with

2338
02:01:54.680 --> 02:01:56.819 A:middle L:90%
the fact that we just feel that they're manipulating us

2339
02:01:57.109 --> 02:01:58.710 A:middle L:90%
, right? And if we get involved with any

2340
02:01:58.710 --> 02:02:00.680 A:middle L:90%
of those kinds of projects that they're involved and we'll

2341
02:02:00.680 --> 02:02:02.550 A:middle L:90%
just be one of the manipulators and this is the

2342
02:02:02.550 --> 02:02:06.229 A:middle L:90%
fear about the anticipatory governance stuff in STS as well

2343
02:02:06.810 --> 02:02:09.579 A:middle L:90%
. But I think this is where social system ologists

2344
02:02:09.579 --> 02:02:11.500 A:middle L:90%
need to have as we're codes. You know,

2345
02:02:11.500 --> 02:02:12.819 A:middle L:90%
where it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be a bad

2346
02:02:12.819 --> 02:02:15.840 A:middle L:90%
idea. Codes of professional conduct, things like this

2347
02:02:15.850 --> 02:02:16.710 A:middle L:90%
. I realize it's kind of a difficult thing to

2348
02:02:16.710 --> 02:02:19.529 A:middle L:90%
kind of hammer out, but I would have thought

2349
02:02:19.539 --> 02:02:23.039 A:middle L:90%
that we should be very much in this kind of

2350
02:02:23.310 --> 02:02:24.750 A:middle L:90%
. So this book you're talking, we should be

2351
02:02:24.750 --> 02:02:26.850 A:middle L:90%
very much in there. But we should be in

2352
02:02:26.850 --> 02:02:30.840 A:middle L:90%
there as autonomous people, not as hired guns.

2353
02:02:30.850 --> 02:02:32.869 A:middle L:90%
But that means we have to define ourselves more clearly

2354
02:02:32.880 --> 02:02:34.739 A:middle L:90%
. And this is where you know the history of

2355
02:02:34.739 --> 02:02:38.739 A:middle L:90%
professionalization does Give us some clues and you are alluding

2356
02:02:38.739 --> 02:02:40.800 A:middle L:90%
to them this morning, Francis, about what we

2357
02:02:40.800 --> 02:02:45.640 A:middle L:90%
need to do. Thank you all for him.

2358
02:02:45.649 --> 02:02:48.819 A:middle L:90%
Well, thank you, everybody. Thank you.