WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:05.759 A:middle L:90% many individuals have been involved in our field from the 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:09.359 A:middle L:90% beginning and have witnessed firsthand its growth and the impact 3 00:00:09.369 --> 00:00:12.890 A:middle L:90% on what we do in training and in education. 4 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:15.759 A:middle L:90% In this program. We'll be talking with Dr Ivor 5 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:19.019 A:middle L:90% Davies, who is a faculty member At Indiana University 6 00:00:19.030 --> 00:00:22.350 A:middle L:90% for over 30 years. Welcome Dr Davies, thank 7 00:00:22.350 --> 00:00:25.050 A:middle L:90% you. I'd like to begin by asking you what 8 00:00:25.050 --> 00:00:28.269 A:middle L:90% created your interest and motivated you to pursue a career 9 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:33.229 A:middle L:90% in this field. I didn't start off thinking of 10 00:00:33.229 --> 00:00:35.950 A:middle L:90% having a career in the field. Uh I was 11 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:39.060 A:middle L:90% trained as a psychologist and had worked for a number 12 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:45.329 A:middle L:90% of years uh concerned with a concept acquisition and that 13 00:00:45.329 --> 00:00:49.899 A:middle L:90% was my area of interest in psychology and I was 14 00:00:49.899 --> 00:00:54.649 A:middle L:90% invited here at Indiana University to give a lecture an 15 00:00:54.649 --> 00:00:59.170 A:middle L:90% international series. I was in the indian ocean during 16 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:00.299 A:middle L:90% some work in the Maldives at that time, and 17 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:03.370 A:middle L:90% my wife sent me a telegram saying you've got this 18 00:01:03.370 --> 00:01:06.950 A:middle L:90% invitation and I would accept it if you can. 19 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.480 A:middle L:90% I was in mind not to accept it having been 20 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.810 A:middle L:90% away, I wanted to get back home. But 21 00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:19.359 A:middle L:90% anyway, I came out here one November and gave 22 00:01:19.370 --> 00:01:25.760 A:middle L:90% a lecture on structure and strategy in valentine. And 23 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:27.620 A:middle L:90% as a result of that, they asked me to 24 00:01:27.620 --> 00:01:30.700 A:middle L:90% stay on a few more days. By the way 25 00:01:30.700 --> 00:01:33.859 A:middle L:90% , the funding for the lecture was was coming from 26 00:01:33.859 --> 00:01:37.329 A:middle L:90% the United States government in terms of an interest in 27 00:01:37.329 --> 00:01:41.609 A:middle L:90% community colleges. And so I gave a lecture in 28 00:01:41.609 --> 00:01:44.019 A:middle L:90% valentine and they asked me to stay on a few 29 00:01:44.019 --> 00:01:46.579 A:middle L:90% more days, which I did. The weather was 30 00:01:46.579 --> 00:01:49.560 A:middle L:90% wonderful. It was an indian summer and I went 31 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:52.129 A:middle L:90% back home that as far as I was concerned was 32 00:01:52.129 --> 00:01:57.890 A:middle L:90% the end of the matter of both indiana uh and 33 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:00.530 A:middle L:90% of talking to people who were in a field which 34 00:02:00.530 --> 00:02:07.299 A:middle L:90% they nervously called instructional development at that time. Then 35 00:02:07.989 --> 00:02:10.939 A:middle L:90% I received a telephone call which was placed by Tom 36 00:02:10.939 --> 00:02:19.120 A:middle L:90% Sharpe, sorry Tom Schwinn um an early pioneer in 37 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.039 A:middle L:90% our field who was then a graduate student in the 38 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:27.120 A:middle L:90% program and asked if I would be interested in talking 39 00:02:27.129 --> 00:02:30.599 A:middle L:90% to Gene Farris, who had then been just appointed 40 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:34.219 A:middle L:90% as dean of Learning resources in valentine. Previous to 41 00:02:34.219 --> 00:02:38.849 A:middle L:90% that, he had been associate executive director of the 42 00:02:38.849 --> 00:02:43.840 A:middle L:90% Audiovisual Center. And I said yes, and jean 43 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:46.169 A:middle L:90% asked me if I was interested perhaps of thinking of 44 00:02:46.169 --> 00:02:51.680 A:middle L:90% coming here. I said uh yeah, I've always 45 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:53.830 A:middle L:90% had an idea that you should never close down on 46 00:02:53.830 --> 00:03:00.310 A:middle L:90% any interview or any job opportunities until they got serious 47 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.229 A:middle L:90% . And I said, okay, we'll write to 48 00:03:04.229 --> 00:03:07.060 A:middle L:90% you and then you you can think about what we're 49 00:03:07.060 --> 00:03:12.280 A:middle L:90% proposing. So he wrote to me. Um and 50 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:14.960 A:middle L:90% the result of that was I came for what I 51 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:21.169 A:middle L:90% thought was an interview um for an appointment in a 52 00:03:21.169 --> 00:03:23.530 A:middle L:90% new field which had been created here by changing the 53 00:03:23.530 --> 00:03:29.680 A:middle L:90% name of a department which was basically audiovisual um to 54 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:36.689 A:middle L:90% instructional systems technology. That sort of intrigued me though 55 00:03:36.689 --> 00:03:39.699 A:middle L:90% , I saw it very narrowly. Um So I 56 00:03:39.699 --> 00:03:44.330 A:middle L:90% came here um and in the course of the interview 57 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:47.000 A:middle L:90% , I was very uncomfortable because they seem to be 58 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:52.870 A:middle L:90% asking me questions uh about why I wasn't asking them 59 00:03:52.870 --> 00:03:58.830 A:middle L:90% questions and I suddenly realized that this was not an 60 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:01.020 A:middle L:90% interview that had already offered me the job, I 61 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:03.159 A:middle L:90% was interviewing them to see if I was willing to 62 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:08.759 A:middle L:90% come. Mhm. Which sort of threw things anyway 63 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:13.189 A:middle L:90% towards the end of the afternoon, on the second 64 00:04:13.189 --> 00:04:15.659 A:middle L:90% set of conversations we had uh I said that I 65 00:04:15.659 --> 00:04:17.639 A:middle L:90% would be willing to come because at that time my 66 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:19.949 A:middle L:90% Children were young and I was thinking I was doing 67 00:04:19.949 --> 00:04:21.699 A:middle L:90% more and more work in the United, in the 68 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:25.529 A:middle L:90% United States and he seemed to be a good time 69 00:04:25.529 --> 00:04:28.540 A:middle L:90% if I was ever going to move physically uh to 70 00:04:28.540 --> 00:04:32.500 A:middle L:90% move when they were young. Um And they said 71 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:33.930 A:middle L:90% , well, when would you be willing to come 72 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:34.910 A:middle L:90% ? I said, well, it couldn't come for 73 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:40.810 A:middle L:90% two years. Their faces dropped. Uh They saw 74 00:04:40.810 --> 00:04:43.129 A:middle L:90% that as presenting, you know, enormous problems. 75 00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:46.220 A:middle L:90% Um and so they said, why? And I 76 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:47.899 A:middle L:90% said, well, I have a project which I 77 00:04:47.899 --> 00:04:51.439 A:middle L:90% have to complete and so two years, the first 78 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:55.360 A:middle L:90% time I don't be able to come, so jean 79 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.589 A:middle L:90% was asked to take me to see um the little 80 00:04:58.589 --> 00:05:00.430 A:middle L:90% library. And so they got me out of the 81 00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:02.389 A:middle L:90% room, which was a brian hall and the Dean 82 00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:06.439 A:middle L:90% of faculties office and ultimately came back and they said 83 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.389 A:middle L:90% , well, here's a proposal. Well, a 84 00:05:09.389 --> 00:05:15.769 A:middle L:90% point you um as professor uh tenure on the first 85 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:17.579 A:middle L:90% day of the new semester in the academic year, 86 00:05:17.589 --> 00:05:19.639 A:middle L:90% we'll give you a leave of absence for two years 87 00:05:19.649 --> 00:05:24.410 A:middle L:90% on the next day, but we'll pay you a 88 00:05:24.420 --> 00:05:28.050 A:middle L:90% podium uh, per diem rate for all the time 89 00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:30.360 A:middle L:90% that you were able to come during the two years 90 00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:32.019 A:middle L:90% . So I arrived as it were to two years 91 00:05:32.019 --> 00:05:38.800 A:middle L:90% late, bob Hynek had been the man who proposed 92 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.990 A:middle L:90% the name change, instructional systems technology only. Larson 93 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.899 A:middle L:90% was then, um, uh, he had the 94 00:05:46.910 --> 00:05:49.399 A:middle L:90% title from a previous role he had of Dean Dean 95 00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:54.509 A:middle L:90% Holy Larson. Uh, he was chairman of, 96 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:58.579 A:middle L:90% uh, of the department. He saw it as 97 00:05:58.579 --> 00:06:00.870 A:middle L:90% being too narrow a definition of the field, but 98 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.519 A:middle L:90% bob really drove it. He'd been appointed about two 99 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:09.149 A:middle L:90% years previous and he's been pointed again as a, 100 00:06:09.149 --> 00:06:14.550 A:middle L:90% as a senior professor and with a publishing background. 101 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:20.360 A:middle L:90% And so instructional systems technology was what it became. 102 00:06:21.339 --> 00:06:24.350 A:middle L:90% Um, if I can interrupt, you know, 103 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.750 A:middle L:90% you were involved. I know at least you have 104 00:06:26.750 --> 00:06:29.610 A:middle L:90% one well cited article Jim Hartley on programmed instruction. 105 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:31.980 A:middle L:90% So in some ways you had some contact with the 106 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:36.680 A:middle L:90% field before really instructions, I became formula for formal 107 00:06:36.689 --> 00:06:40.970 A:middle L:90% and uh, instructional technology. What kind of shift 108 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:43.550 A:middle L:90% did that indicate when we switched from? Well, 109 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:46.000 A:middle L:90% here it was, I think audiovisual communications to instructional 110 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.740 A:middle L:90% systems technology. What do we a paradigm shift? 111 00:06:48.750 --> 00:06:50.500 A:middle L:90% What what kind of, how would you characterize that 112 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.149 A:middle L:90% shift? And we picked up this new term, 113 00:06:54.439 --> 00:07:00.300 A:middle L:90% the new term, the term instructional design as used 114 00:07:00.300 --> 00:07:05.060 A:middle L:90% within the department, um which resulted in an article 115 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:08.829 A:middle L:90% written by Gene Farris, which is really the the 116 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.660 A:middle L:90% most historical article because he's concerned with defining the nature 117 00:07:12.660 --> 00:07:15.529 A:middle L:90% of instructional design and development. Is that the one 118 00:07:15.529 --> 00:07:17.759 A:middle L:90% was an avian structure? Yes, Yes. Um 119 00:07:17.769 --> 00:07:21.600 A:middle L:90% and the department was founded on that article or it 120 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.089 A:middle L:90% was in their minds and Gene Farris wrote it as 121 00:07:26.089 --> 00:07:30.449 A:middle L:90% an article, but the even the coursework reflected the 122 00:07:30.449 --> 00:07:35.069 A:middle L:90% boxes within that linear program. Okay. And that 123 00:07:35.069 --> 00:07:39.829 A:middle L:90% was much richer than just defining things in terms of 124 00:07:39.829 --> 00:07:45.389 A:middle L:90% instructional technology. That I think that the instructional technology 125 00:07:45.389 --> 00:07:48.120 A:middle L:90% piece was driven by a significant change in the technology 126 00:07:48.129 --> 00:07:51.899 A:middle L:90% that the department saw as the future, which was 127 00:07:51.910 --> 00:07:57.149 A:middle L:90% that film would be only part of the future. 128 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:01.629 A:middle L:90% Not in fact the mainstay, but the film library 129 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.389 A:middle L:90% would found the change in the department through the use 130 00:08:05.389 --> 00:08:07.930 A:middle L:90% of new technology. And of course, part of 131 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.279 A:middle L:90% that new technology was this enormous creative, if any 132 00:08:11.290 --> 00:08:16.019 A:middle L:90% , fantastic creation called the overhead projector. Uh, 133 00:08:16.029 --> 00:08:22.360 A:middle L:90% and the overhead projector really uh, drove that because 134 00:08:22.649 --> 00:08:24.529 A:middle L:90% it's surprised, I remember how many people were surprised 135 00:08:24.529 --> 00:08:28.019 A:middle L:90% when someone arrived with an overhead projector and switched it 136 00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:31.879 A:middle L:90% on and the writing on the wall. Uh they 137 00:08:31.889 --> 00:08:35.000 A:middle L:90% took them back to the old testament and the pharaohs 138 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.980 A:middle L:90% and everywhere else. Um and so, um and 139 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:41.379 A:middle L:90% then photography became a much more important part of the 140 00:08:41.379 --> 00:08:46.440 A:middle L:90% field. Um The design part was what harvey fry 141 00:08:46.450 --> 00:08:50.750 A:middle L:90% had always been interested in even in the days of 142 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:56.320 A:middle L:90% um of the old audiovisual department, but he took 143 00:08:56.330 --> 00:09:03.090 A:middle L:90% photography and graphics and design and that became an important 144 00:09:03.090 --> 00:09:05.649 A:middle L:90% part of the new department. So that's where the 145 00:09:05.649 --> 00:09:07.789 A:middle L:90% design portion of the program, which was a master's 146 00:09:07.789 --> 00:09:11.799 A:middle L:90% program for the most part of that time. Then 147 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:15.610 A:middle L:90% came the development of developing materials for that, which 148 00:09:15.610 --> 00:09:18.769 A:middle L:90% was the instruction. The technology merely reflected what everybody's 149 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:22.320 A:middle L:90% saying. Isn't this interesting technology, the world's change 150 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.480 A:middle L:90% , We've got a new industrial revolution um but we 151 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:35.649 A:middle L:90% never really um defined ourselves other than using technology until 152 00:09:35.730 --> 00:09:39.000 A:middle L:90% the days of the Foundation, if you like, 153 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.549 A:middle L:90% of Microsoft. Okay, what was your professional preparation 154 00:09:43.549 --> 00:09:50.799 A:middle L:90% for entering the field? Um So if we define 155 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.470 A:middle L:90% , I enter in the field on the first day 156 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:54.009 A:middle L:90% that I came here before I was given leave of 157 00:09:54.009 --> 00:10:00.029 A:middle L:90% absence one day on that one day. Um I 158 00:10:00.029 --> 00:10:03.960 A:middle L:90% suppose it was that I had just published a book 159 00:10:03.990 --> 00:10:05.860 A:middle L:90% which was called The Management of Learning from McGraw Hill 160 00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:11.320 A:middle L:90% . Um which about said it all, I was 161 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.840 A:middle L:90% interested in learning concepts is a subset of all of 162 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:20.690 A:middle L:90% that program. Learning uh was something that was implementing 163 00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:22.559 A:middle L:90% that, because B. F. Skinner at that 164 00:10:22.570 --> 00:10:26.860 A:middle L:90% time as a psychologist interested me greatly. I knew 165 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:31.440 A:middle L:90% Skinner slightly personally, both in europe. The time 166 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:33.429 A:middle L:90% is spent in europe as well as the time that 167 00:10:33.429 --> 00:10:39.509 A:middle L:90% he uh was here um because Skinner was originally chairman 168 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.990 A:middle L:90% of the psychology department here at Iu and he went 169 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:46.690 A:middle L:90% to Harvard where I met him again on the monday 170 00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:50.779 A:middle L:90% after JFK's funeral when Harvard and everywhere else in the 171 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:52.980 A:middle L:90% United States shut down. And I arrived that day 172 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:56.190 A:middle L:90% for an interview with Skinner. Uh but he still 173 00:10:56.190 --> 00:11:01.029 A:middle L:90% met me. Um and he's uh remember that his 174 00:11:01.029 --> 00:11:05.690 A:middle L:90% office was Rome in the football stadium, which rather 175 00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:07.559 A:middle L:90% puzzled me. That is such a distinguished man, 176 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.429 A:middle L:90% would have an office in the football stadium in the 177 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.460 A:middle L:90% in the basement of the football stadium. But anyway 178 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:18.720 A:middle L:90% , uh and so I think that that really was 179 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.669 A:middle L:90% the start of extended interest in what I was really 180 00:11:22.669 --> 00:11:26.649 A:middle L:90% about. Um was interested in how you manage learning 181 00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:31.149 A:middle L:90% , so that learning uh Mhm. Takes place and 182 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:35.679 A:middle L:90% looking uh huh mentally back of the chapters in that 183 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:41.200 A:middle L:90% book, I think that they neatly fit what the 184 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:46.330 A:middle L:90% idea was in redefining the field. And I always 185 00:11:46.330 --> 00:11:50.629 A:middle L:90% imagined that only lasted. Had seen the proposal for 186 00:11:50.629 --> 00:11:52.169 A:middle L:90% that book, which is quite possible. Hynek might 187 00:11:52.169 --> 00:11:54.879 A:middle L:90% have got him through his publishing contact with McGraw Hill 188 00:11:54.889 --> 00:11:56.759 A:middle L:90% . And so that was one of the reasons that 189 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:01.440 A:middle L:90% I was invited uh for that international series. Okay 190 00:12:01.450 --> 00:12:05.559 A:middle L:90% . You mentioned your backgrounds in psychology and your dissertation 191 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.639 A:middle L:90% was on concept learning concept attainment. Uh but it 192 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.830 A:middle L:90% was from a psychology standpoint as opposed to a constructive 193 00:12:13.830 --> 00:12:16.389 A:middle L:90% design standpoint at that time, if you were directing 194 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.009 A:middle L:90% a student's dissertation, they are still working with students 195 00:12:20.009 --> 00:12:22.389 A:middle L:90% instructional design. And a student came to you and 196 00:12:22.389 --> 00:12:24.720 A:middle L:90% said I would like to either replicate your study or 197 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:26.950 A:middle L:90% to act on one of the recommendations you made. 198 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:30.840 A:middle L:90% Would that still be relevant, a relevant study for 199 00:12:30.850 --> 00:12:35.860 A:middle L:90% research for our field today? Yes, because uh 200 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:39.960 A:middle L:90% right, first of all, the instrument of that 201 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:45.190 A:middle L:90% , I used uh for my study which was an 202 00:12:45.190 --> 00:12:52.460 A:middle L:90% experiment With 110 people um who were technical people, 203 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:58.120 A:middle L:90% was a program learning text because that enabled me, 204 00:12:58.129 --> 00:13:01.409 A:middle L:90% I had no particular interest in it other than the 205 00:13:01.409 --> 00:13:05.500 A:middle L:90% fact that the program learning text gave me a standard 206 00:13:05.500 --> 00:13:09.350 A:middle L:90% instrument That could be used for people in different situations 207 00:13:09.590 --> 00:13:11.049 A:middle L:90% . 110 people, a lot of people to manage 208 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:20.250 A:middle L:90% . Um and I was interested in answering the question 209 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:24.210 A:middle L:90% basically of whether concept acquisition was all or none or 210 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:30.659 A:middle L:90% was incremental. That argument still exists within the field 211 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.580 A:middle L:90% . Um because of the I was able to use 212 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:39.179 A:middle L:90% what we would then call what we would now call 213 00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:45.929 A:middle L:90% a supercomputer in those days, which was american military 214 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:52.850 A:middle L:90% british military um uh defense Computer for the purpose of 215 00:13:52.850 --> 00:13:56.159 A:middle L:90% the study, because it was interested the british government 216 00:13:56.149 --> 00:14:00.840 A:middle L:90% . And and so I was able to do extraordinary 217 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.759 A:middle L:90% things in terms of the analysis of the data. 218 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.470 A:middle L:90% And we knew everything about the 110 people from their 219 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:13.320 A:middle L:90% religious status, uh, how many Children they had 220 00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:15.960 A:middle L:90% when they were born, where they were born, 221 00:14:16.409 --> 00:14:20.190 A:middle L:90% the health. And we didn't use all those variables 222 00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:22.570 A:middle L:90% . But I'm simply saying we had enormous data in 223 00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:24.269 A:middle L:90% terms of the background of those people. And the 224 00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:31.169 A:middle L:90% study became well known only because it was regarded as 225 00:14:31.169 --> 00:14:39.570 A:middle L:90% one of the five best studies in comparative um experimental 226 00:14:39.570 --> 00:14:43.759 A:middle L:90% work because of the design and the analysis. Okay 227 00:14:43.769 --> 00:14:48.129 A:middle L:90% , what did I find? I found that in 228 00:14:48.129 --> 00:14:52.350 A:middle L:90% this particular instance that concept acquisition was all or none 229 00:14:52.940 --> 00:14:54.940 A:middle L:90% that you either got the concept of us. You 230 00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:58.059 A:middle L:90% didn't get the concept if you didn't get the concept 231 00:14:58.059 --> 00:15:03.450 A:middle L:90% , what you got was a knowledge chain. Um 232 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.750 A:middle L:90% so often a verbal chain, but it could be 233 00:15:05.750 --> 00:15:09.090 A:middle L:90% a motor chain, but people would still say I 234 00:15:09.090 --> 00:15:09.970 A:middle L:90% got the concept, but it wasn't a concept, 235 00:15:09.970 --> 00:15:15.200 A:middle L:90% it was a motor chain in using gardeners terms. 236 00:15:15.210 --> 00:15:18.139 A:middle L:90% Okay, well you told us about your gestation, 237 00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:20.399 A:middle L:90% that very understanding and so viable today. So let's 238 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.480 A:middle L:90% go back to the time period right after you graduated 239 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.840 A:middle L:90% in, what were your aspirations and uh your interest 240 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:31.289 A:middle L:90% when when you started your first job? After your 241 00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:35.460 A:middle L:90% doctor? Okay. I had been educated in europe 242 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:41.950 A:middle L:90% , I've been in Germany, had been educated in 243 00:15:41.950 --> 00:15:45.809 A:middle L:90% the United Kingdom and I had been educated at the 244 00:15:45.809 --> 00:15:50.110 A:middle L:90% university of Illinois where I have a master's degree in 245 00:15:50.110 --> 00:15:58.440 A:middle L:90% psychology. Um And so my aim always after The 246 00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:02.919 A:middle L:90% my 18 months in Havana Champagne was to come back 247 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:10.460 A:middle L:90% to the United States. Um I was um intrigued 248 00:16:10.940 --> 00:16:14.759 A:middle L:90% uh coming back for you know, maybe four or 249 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.000 A:middle L:90% five years and then going back to europe, but 250 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.759 A:middle L:90% I enjoyed what I have done a barn, a 251 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.950 A:middle L:90% champagne, uh the reason I chose a bottle of 252 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:30.059 A:middle L:90% champagne, I could use any choose any university uh 253 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:33.450 A:middle L:90% in the United States, uh was that there was 254 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:41.399 A:middle L:90% a british uh faculty member um at Havana, who's 255 00:16:41.409 --> 00:16:45.960 A:middle L:90% who's area was personality and I was at that time 256 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:51.009 A:middle L:90% particularly interested in personality as a graduate student. And 257 00:16:51.009 --> 00:16:52.820 A:middle L:90% I arrived in Havana and I found out that he 258 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:56.629 A:middle L:90% was going to be on sabbatical leave for the next 259 00:16:56.629 --> 00:17:00.889 A:middle L:90% year. So that killed my interesting in personality. 260 00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:07.759 A:middle L:90% And that led me basically into area particularly of of 261 00:17:07.769 --> 00:17:11.609 A:middle L:90% of training, and I began to get interested in 262 00:17:11.609 --> 00:17:14.259 A:middle L:90% this literature that couldn't answer a basic question of what 263 00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:18.430 A:middle L:90% was the concept of the concept? Okay, all 264 00:17:18.430 --> 00:17:23.609 A:middle L:90% right. Um so that really was uh where so 265 00:17:23.609 --> 00:17:26.700 A:middle L:90% a key point in my whole of my career, 266 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:33.029 A:middle L:90% professional career was the University of Illinois. I think 267 00:17:33.029 --> 00:17:37.589 A:middle L:90% it changed my worldview. Um It opened me up 268 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:42.259 A:middle L:90% uh to the whole area of technology at that time 269 00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:45.950 A:middle L:90% because it's a very good engineering school. Um and 270 00:17:45.950 --> 00:17:49.750 A:middle L:90% I lived in an independent house with students who are 271 00:17:49.750 --> 00:17:52.769 A:middle L:90% in engineering, so I I developed that sort of 272 00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:57.769 A:middle L:90% interest um and a lot of the work that I 273 00:17:57.769 --> 00:18:03.049 A:middle L:90% subsequently did, whilst I was active in I. 274 00:18:03.049 --> 00:18:04.630 A:middle L:90% S. T. Here at the University of Illinois 275 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:10.539 A:middle L:90% , was as a consultant for major American companies, 276 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:12.269 A:middle L:90% the most important of which in my career was the 277 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.069 A:middle L:90% 20 years that I spent as a senior consultant with 278 00:18:15.069 --> 00:18:19.109 A:middle L:90% general electric, which was an application of everything that 279 00:18:19.109 --> 00:18:22.700 A:middle L:90% I did. But they never used the words instructional 280 00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:26.809 A:middle L:90% systems technology because I never have thought that it was 281 00:18:26.809 --> 00:18:30.690 A:middle L:90% a useful label and was a dangerous label in terms 282 00:18:30.690 --> 00:18:33.569 A:middle L:90% of how people would perceive who we were and what 283 00:18:33.569 --> 00:18:37.480 A:middle L:90% we were. And I did not Niecy, I 284 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.819 A:middle L:90% did not want to have that and to be rather 285 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:44.460 A:middle L:90% cruel as a mark of cain on my forehead. 286 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:52.140 A:middle L:90% So I either define myself as a psychologist and or 287 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:56.759 A:middle L:90% I define myself as someone interested when I was active 288 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.069 A:middle L:90% in. I. S. Stay in the area 289 00:18:59.069 --> 00:19:02.650 A:middle L:90% of human performance technology, which I define the technology 290 00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:03.809 A:middle L:90% pieces simply as know how and nothing to do with 291 00:19:03.809 --> 00:19:07.460 A:middle L:90% hardware or technology in the technology sense of the term 292 00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:10.450 A:middle L:90% as we use it even today. Sure, okay 293 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:12.029 A:middle L:90% . Um over the years, I know you've seen 294 00:19:12.029 --> 00:19:14.640 A:middle L:90% a lot of trends, a lot of fads come 295 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:15.519 A:middle L:90% and go on the field. But what are a 296 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.549 A:middle L:90% couple of the major changes you saw that had a 297 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:22.049 A:middle L:90% significant impact on our field or on other fields that 298 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:26.529 A:middle L:90% we might affect? Well, let's go from one 299 00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:29.500 A:middle L:90% end to the other end, the whole continuum, 300 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:32.160 A:middle L:90% let's look at the and then there's been a journey 301 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:33.400 A:middle L:90% in between. But I think the journey is less 302 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:38.390 A:middle L:90% interesting than where it began. It began with photographs 303 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:45.619 A:middle L:90% and with drawings, graphics. Harvey fry was a 304 00:19:45.630 --> 00:19:48.900 A:middle L:90% good area and Mac Fleming was a good area where 305 00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:59.400 A:middle L:90% that all began. And today uh our area which 306 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.720 A:middle L:90% were describing and talking about which is much bigger than 307 00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:07.140 A:middle L:90% Isda here is to be best to be seen in 308 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:11.680 A:middle L:90% the name changes that are taking place in departments of 309 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.579 A:middle L:90% psychology department, which I think gives you an idea 310 00:20:15.579 --> 00:20:19.200 A:middle L:90% of just how far we've moved and the normally now 311 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.779 A:middle L:90% of the new possibilities that are open to us and 312 00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:26.720 A:middle L:90% this is the names of the most important departments of 313 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.309 A:middle L:90% psychology are some variant of this department of Brain and 314 00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:37.519 A:middle L:90% Psychological Sciences MRI. And the ability to see what 315 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.150 A:middle L:90% is happening in the brain has transformed research in our 316 00:20:41.150 --> 00:20:45.359 A:middle L:90% area, everybody's area. How do you think that 317 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.700 A:middle L:90% will impact our field? I'd be very interested to 318 00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:53.440 A:middle L:90% see if it does okay. Um And the caution 319 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:59.549 A:middle L:90% that's in that remark of mine is simply of course 320 00:20:59.809 --> 00:21:03.029 A:middle L:90% the size of the investment uh in order to get 321 00:21:03.029 --> 00:21:06.829 A:middle L:90% time on M. R. I. Regardless of 322 00:21:06.829 --> 00:21:07.559 A:middle L:90% whether you purchase an M. R. I. 323 00:21:07.569 --> 00:21:11.519 A:middle L:90% Uh But of course prices are going down and things 324 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:18.950 A:middle L:90% do change. But it requires and and add on 325 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.890 A:middle L:90% to training of people in our field in order to 326 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:26.119 A:middle L:90% start opening up that area. But that area of 327 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.650 A:middle L:90% being able to see what's going on this moment in 328 00:21:30.650 --> 00:21:34.549 A:middle L:90% terms of learning acquisition um is where the future lies 329 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:40.930 A:middle L:90% . So in a sense, instructional systems technology, 330 00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:45.450 A:middle L:90% I hate the limitation to instruction. Um Systems is 331 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:48.750 A:middle L:90% a very rich term, like it much more systemic 332 00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:51.900 A:middle L:90% , is much, much more interesting than systematic, 333 00:21:51.910 --> 00:21:56.990 A:middle L:90% though much of our literature is heavily systematic. Just 334 00:21:56.990 --> 00:22:00.559 A:middle L:90% look at the graphics in the articles, just how 335 00:22:00.569 --> 00:22:03.279 A:middle L:90% systematic they are, how they've even changed over the 336 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.230 A:middle L:90% years. Yes, yes, I think it's a 337 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.390 A:middle L:90% worthy study would be sometime of looking at dissertations in 338 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:15.450 A:middle L:90% our field in terms of just the graphics uh that 339 00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:18.240 A:middle L:90% they've used and the design even just of the tables 340 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.250 A:middle L:90% that are used within the dissertations over a period of 341 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:23.609 A:middle L:90% time. Um I once got a, had a 342 00:22:23.609 --> 00:22:29.710 A:middle L:90% student do a very small version of what we're talking 343 00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:33.950 A:middle L:90% about um Day or before he died, gave me 344 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:38.650 A:middle L:90% all the editions of his books, book on audiovisual 345 00:22:38.660 --> 00:22:45.150 A:middle L:90% . Um I basically comes down to four Complete editions 346 00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:48.289 A:middle L:90% , edition one. It is the earliest one to 347 00:22:48.289 --> 00:22:51.430 A:middle L:90% addition, for I have them on the shelf on 348 00:22:51.430 --> 00:22:52.819 A:middle L:90% my office to this day, not quite certain what 349 00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:56.859 A:middle L:90% I should do with them. But anyway, what 350 00:22:56.859 --> 00:22:57.960 A:middle L:90% I asked the student to do is a graduate student 351 00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:04.269 A:middle L:90% uh, was to find out what were the differences 352 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:08.309 A:middle L:90% between the additions. Now there are obvious differences. 353 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.359 A:middle L:90% Um, and one of the major differences, the 354 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:18.769 A:middle L:90% book's got thicker and of course the photographs were changed 355 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:21.119 A:middle L:90% because they all wanted to get it to be adopted 356 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.990 A:middle L:90% as a textbook. And so textbook committees require to 357 00:23:23.990 --> 00:23:27.640 A:middle L:90% have a modern version of a ford car, not 358 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:32.369 A:middle L:90% something that's uh seven or 10 years old. So 359 00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:36.799 A:middle L:90% photographs and drawings were changed, but the best representation 360 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.369 A:middle L:90% of Dale's contribution to the field in terms of the 361 00:23:40.369 --> 00:23:44.910 A:middle L:90% kind of experience is in addition one, all the 362 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.250 A:middle L:90% extra texture like barnacles on a ship. They interfered 363 00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:52.730 A:middle L:90% with the message. They were added, presumably because 364 00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:55.839 A:middle L:90% he thought he was a better explication of the message 365 00:23:55.950 --> 00:23:57.910 A:middle L:90% . But the message is its clearest and in its 366 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:03.569 A:middle L:90% beautiful form. It has arrogance in in the earliest 367 00:24:03.569 --> 00:24:07.259 A:middle L:90% edition and the elegance is lost in addition form. 368 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:11.960 A:middle L:90% I see very interesting uh your career, is it 369 00:24:11.970 --> 00:24:12.849 A:middle L:90% ? I see some common themes coming through it. 370 00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:15.930 A:middle L:90% What if you could tell us some of the major 371 00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:19.190 A:middle L:90% ideas or approaches that have influenced your career and some 372 00:24:19.190 --> 00:24:23.849 A:middle L:90% of the people that have influenced your career? Well 373 00:24:23.849 --> 00:24:26.849 A:middle L:90% , we mentioned B. F. Skinner. Uh 374 00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:34.369 A:middle L:90% Bearskin a intrigued me greatly because initially he promised a 375 00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:41.480 A:middle L:90% science of learning and the idea of that. The 376 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:44.720 A:middle L:90% concept of that, the richness of that whether we 377 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.190 A:middle L:90% delivered or not. It was intriguing to apply science 378 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.640 A:middle L:90% to. It was the same sort of battle that 379 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.019 A:middle L:90% he was fighting that we have in terms of climate 380 00:24:55.029 --> 00:24:59.990 A:middle L:90% because now we talk about the science of climate change 381 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:00.529 A:middle L:90% . In other words, you're trying to get brownie 382 00:25:00.529 --> 00:25:04.230 A:middle L:90% points and authority and credibility because you're talking had a 383 00:25:04.230 --> 00:25:07.369 A:middle L:90% science side. And so that the science of learning 384 00:25:07.369 --> 00:25:10.839 A:middle L:90% , a science of teaching, which is what he 385 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:15.839 A:middle L:90% was talking about, was very attractive. Um and 386 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.140 A:middle L:90% he was very attractive. A man in terms of 387 00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:23.210 A:middle L:90% how he spoke. Um He was had become in 388 00:25:23.210 --> 00:25:26.480 A:middle L:90% the time that I knew him, as I say 389 00:25:26.490 --> 00:25:32.859 A:middle L:90% , still casually uh philosopher of psychology, and particularly 390 00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:37.369 A:middle L:90% a philosopher of this science. And I saw a 391 00:25:37.369 --> 00:25:41.859 A:middle L:90% very interesting event take place, which always intrigued me 392 00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:48.299 A:middle L:90% . And he was invited to give a lecture to 393 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:56.569 A:middle L:90% the Royal Society um in London, and now the 394 00:25:56.569 --> 00:26:00.289 A:middle L:90% Royal Society is the most distinguished society for scientists, 395 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:04.299 A:middle L:90% uh certainly in europe, and probably to an extent 396 00:26:04.299 --> 00:26:07.009 A:middle L:90% in the world to get an effort as a fellowship 397 00:26:07.009 --> 00:26:10.230 A:middle L:90% of the Royal Society is really something It was founded 398 00:26:10.230 --> 00:26:11.859 A:middle L:90% in 1665. So he's been around a long time 399 00:26:12.339 --> 00:26:17.349 A:middle L:90% , um and you're invited to become a member and 400 00:26:17.349 --> 00:26:19.579 A:middle L:90% it's it's uh if you like, it's a substitute 401 00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:22.420 A:middle L:90% for a nobel prize. So these are really the 402 00:26:22.420 --> 00:26:29.240 A:middle L:90% princes of Physics Engineering. Um No education, it's 403 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.990 A:middle L:90% only in the last few years that psychologist has ever 404 00:26:32.990 --> 00:26:36.380 A:middle L:90% become, remember, and he was invited to give 405 00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:37.349 A:middle L:90% this lecture. Now, for some whatever reason, 406 00:26:37.349 --> 00:26:40.980 A:middle L:90% I was invited to go along in the audience, 407 00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:44.799 A:middle L:90% which was a great occasion. Uh So I sat 408 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.930 A:middle L:90% there and here was one of my heroes, B 409 00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:51.559 A:middle L:90% . F. Skinner, um and I had recently 410 00:26:51.569 --> 00:26:56.329 A:middle L:90% spoken to him again in the States and he was 411 00:26:56.329 --> 00:27:03.130 A:middle L:90% a disaster, and it must have been a very 412 00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:07.359 A:middle L:90% humbling experience for him. Okay, what had happened 413 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:14.220 A:middle L:90% ? He had underestimated his audience. He hadn't realized 414 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:15.599 A:middle L:90% that they could get what he was saying from the 415 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:19.769 A:middle L:90% first sentence in his paragraph. He didn't need the 416 00:27:19.769 --> 00:27:25.809 A:middle L:90% other sentences in the paragraph. Mhm. That was 417 00:27:25.809 --> 00:27:34.470 A:middle L:90% a turning point. Um because little while afterwards I 418 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:40.960 A:middle L:90% was doing some work on assignment and I was here 419 00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:48.890 A:middle L:90% , I mean a that that in South Africa and 420 00:27:48.890 --> 00:27:52.490 A:middle L:90% during the course I was in South Africa, A 421 00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:55.799 A:middle L:90% friend of mine said uh we've got a guest coming 422 00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:59.069 A:middle L:90% . Uh she's an american and we we would like 423 00:27:59.069 --> 00:28:00.410 A:middle L:90% to take her out to brian some country club in 424 00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:07.390 A:middle L:90% Johannesburg from a saturday supper glands. We'd like you 425 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.680 A:middle L:90% to come along and I didn't feel comfortable with that 426 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:11.890 A:middle L:90% , you know, dancing with my arm around her 427 00:28:11.890 --> 00:28:14.750 A:middle L:90% waist and what would my wife think? You know 428 00:28:14.750 --> 00:28:17.890 A:middle L:90% and would you be happy about this? And who 429 00:28:17.890 --> 00:28:18.680 A:middle L:90% was this woman? You know and things like this 430 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.869 A:middle L:90% ? Her name is Marianne Kellogg. Mhm. Another 431 00:28:22.869 --> 00:28:26.180 A:middle L:90% keystone in my life because she introduced me to probably 432 00:28:26.180 --> 00:28:33.660 A:middle L:90% the most important man I've ever met um who really 433 00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:37.710 A:middle L:90% did redefine my life. Um And so I was 434 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:41.450 A:middle L:90% bullied into it and so I went along and during 435 00:28:41.450 --> 00:28:42.109 A:middle L:90% the course of the evening and I don't think so 436 00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:45.140 A:middle L:90% what do you do and all these sort of things 437 00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:47.390 A:middle L:90% I explained to her and she says you know we 438 00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:56.269 A:middle L:90% have a younger senior executive um in G. And 439 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.069 A:middle L:90% he has a PhD in chemical engineering from the University 440 00:29:00.069 --> 00:29:03.680 A:middle L:90% of Illinois. And you roughly overlap, did you 441 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.609 A:middle L:90% know him? And I didn't know him, but 442 00:29:06.609 --> 00:29:07.559 A:middle L:90% I knew his major professor as it turned out. 443 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:14.170 A:middle L:90% Um And she says he has a product a project 444 00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:18.230 A:middle L:90% product but with no applications were looking for uh help 445 00:29:18.230 --> 00:29:21.000 A:middle L:90% him because if he doesn't get any applications, his 446 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.390 A:middle L:90% career is going to be very limited. This is 447 00:29:22.529 --> 00:29:26.730 A:middle L:90% the research and development that's taken place has been very 448 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:32.220 A:middle L:90% very costly. Um And so I said, well 449 00:29:32.230 --> 00:29:36.440 A:middle L:90% , yeah, sounds interesting. And she put me 450 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.670 A:middle L:90% in touch with him. Um this young man, 451 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:41.880 A:middle L:90% she said now it's going to be difficult for you 452 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:47.079 A:middle L:90% because he's very bright, he's very impatient. And 453 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:51.000 A:middle L:90% when you talk to him um make certain your paragraphs 454 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:52.349 A:middle L:90% are short because you'll get the point in the first 455 00:29:52.349 --> 00:29:57.559 A:middle L:90% sentence. Wasn't that history repeating itself? I mean 456 00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:02.480 A:middle L:90% , I mean, she sold her case immediately, 457 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.029 A:middle L:90% but he put me on my guard and that man 458 00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:08.559 A:middle L:90% was Jack Welch And off and on over the 20 459 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.059 A:middle L:90% years, I worked on different projects within G some 460 00:30:11.059 --> 00:30:14.829 A:middle L:90% directly for him, some products that he was interested 461 00:30:14.829 --> 00:30:15.789 A:middle L:90% in, something to do with him, but he 462 00:30:15.789 --> 00:30:19.029 A:middle L:90% was always interested in them. And that was exactly 463 00:30:19.029 --> 00:30:27.819 A:middle L:90% welsh and Welsh taught me business, I sometimes officially 464 00:30:27.819 --> 00:30:33.950 A:middle L:90% say my NBA came from Welsh. Yeah. Um 465 00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.400 A:middle L:90% and so for 20 years, I, during the 466 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.769 A:middle L:90% time before he became chairman and Ceo until the days 467 00:30:41.769 --> 00:30:45.519 A:middle L:90% that he was chairman and and one of the biggest 468 00:30:45.529 --> 00:30:49.130 A:middle L:90% projects that I had, which again is a psychologist 469 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:52.359 A:middle L:90% and a concept, the importance of concept acquisition, 470 00:30:52.740 --> 00:31:00.720 A:middle L:90% the importance of seeing how people learn or retain and 471 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:04.640 A:middle L:90% how people can lose and be changed themselves. Came 472 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.660 A:middle L:90% from a project that I did for him, which 473 00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:12.819 A:middle L:90% was involved with workout, a process that well known 474 00:31:12.819 --> 00:31:17.359 A:middle L:90% in the literature, but my responsibility was to change 475 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:23.359 A:middle L:90% um, gS industrial businesses. That was Power Systems 476 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:30.849 A:middle L:90% Motors from being a company, an american company that 477 00:31:30.849 --> 00:31:34.609 A:middle L:90% was selling offshore to a global company. And I 478 00:31:34.609 --> 00:31:37.019 A:middle L:90% said, well, how would you know when I'm 479 00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:37.410 A:middle L:90% successful? He said, when I look at the 480 00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:41.160 A:middle L:90% organization chart and see no evidence of americanisms, even 481 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.599 A:middle L:90% down to the names As well as a geographical locations 482 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:49.750 A:middle L:90% . And so for five years I was responsible for 483 00:31:49.750 --> 00:31:56.740 A:middle L:90% changing the culture of the old Edison businesses or for 484 00:31:56.740 --> 00:32:01.599 A:middle L:90% the most part located uh in schenectady, the Old 485 00:32:01.609 --> 00:32:07.000 A:middle L:90% Northwest home of industry and the Industrial Revolution in the 486 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:13.799 A:middle L:90% United States. And subsequently the other defining moment came 487 00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:17.420 A:middle L:90% when I was asked after some work that I've done 488 00:32:17.430 --> 00:32:23.390 A:middle L:90% in Saudi Arabia uh to change to lead a group 489 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:27.700 A:middle L:90% of economists uh to change the economic base of the 490 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:30.559 A:middle L:90% kingdom, which took another five years, which is 491 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.759 A:middle L:90% now bearing fruit in terms of what's happening. So 492 00:32:34.829 --> 00:32:40.190 A:middle L:90% change became a very important part of this. Um 493 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.109 A:middle L:90% interesting enough in terms of people, a man who 494 00:32:44.109 --> 00:32:49.710 A:middle L:90% is responsible for the get involved in Saudi Arabia and 495 00:32:49.710 --> 00:32:53.750 A:middle L:90% things as a man called Bill Carson, uh who 496 00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:59.029 A:middle L:90% I've never met. Um I have spoken to once 497 00:32:59.029 --> 00:33:05.970 A:middle L:90% on the telephone uh but he has sold me uh 498 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:09.549 A:middle L:90% to a number of people uh and one of them 499 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:15.559 A:middle L:90% um was a Saudi Arabian person uh who became as 500 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:20.980 A:middle L:90% where my sponsor in Saudi Arabia. So we've got 501 00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:25.009 A:middle L:90% Bill Carson, we've got welshed Jack Welch and we've 502 00:33:25.009 --> 00:33:27.940 A:middle L:90% got B. F. Skinner what a mix, 503 00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:31.339 A:middle L:90% what a mix. Um people peripherally who had an 504 00:33:31.339 --> 00:33:35.569 A:middle L:90% important part uh have been victims. Stein, I'm 505 00:33:35.569 --> 00:33:38.059 A:middle L:90% interested in philosophy and Liechtenstein has always intrigued me, 506 00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:42.160 A:middle L:90% particularly his blue books in which he deals with beauty 507 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.059 A:middle L:90% . I'm very interested in design how things fit together 508 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:51.849 A:middle L:90% , how the concepts emerge uh if you you want 509 00:33:51.859 --> 00:33:54.289 A:middle L:90% . And I've sort of practiced that uh in the 510 00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:57.430 A:middle L:90% house, the house has made in there. We 511 00:33:57.430 --> 00:33:59.190 A:middle L:90% have we have that we built the house when we 512 00:33:59.190 --> 00:34:00.529 A:middle L:90% came to the United States, but we couldn't afford 513 00:34:00.529 --> 00:34:04.859 A:middle L:90% much. So we've added onto it over the years 514 00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:09.130 A:middle L:90% and I designed all those major changes myself, did 515 00:34:09.130 --> 00:34:12.920 A:middle L:90% a contract to use the contractor uh to actually carry 516 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.659 A:middle L:90% out the work. And I b I also acted 517 00:34:15.670 --> 00:34:19.730 A:middle L:90% in those changes, which is again, the insight 518 00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:22.630 A:middle L:90% that I was the project manager, I managed them 519 00:34:22.630 --> 00:34:23.969 A:middle L:90% every morning. I met with the work people check 520 00:34:23.969 --> 00:34:27.760 A:middle L:90% what they were doing would make changes if necessary. 521 00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:31.909 A:middle L:90% Uh But I ran it so I learned very early 522 00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:36.639 A:middle L:90% on the importance of execution and I learned that from 523 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.030 A:middle L:90% a man called Larry Bossidy, who used to be 524 00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:46.309 A:middle L:90% a senior um part of the the executive staff of 525 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:51.349 A:middle L:90% General Electric and became Deputy Chairman at one time before 526 00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:55.239 A:middle L:90% he moved to Honeywell. Um and let the importance 527 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:59.599 A:middle L:90% of getting things done. Just a simple importance of 528 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.440 A:middle L:90% getting things done here, bob miller, who was 529 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:05.920 A:middle L:90% one of the enduring photographers for Look magazine, made 530 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.949 A:middle L:90% a statement to me a year ago that photographers known 531 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.710 A:middle L:90% for one photograph. He joked that he could retired 532 00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:15.780 A:middle L:90% early because he took that one photograph as a scholar 533 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.340 A:middle L:90% in the field and multiple fields. Now, What 534 00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:22.260 A:middle L:90% one contribution do you think you're best known for? 535 00:35:22.340 --> 00:35:25.010 A:middle L:90% Well, let me say, I want to preface 536 00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:30.619 A:middle L:90% it because the photograph, one of the major people 537 00:35:30.630 --> 00:35:34.869 A:middle L:90% in I. S. T. Um was Warren 538 00:35:34.869 --> 00:35:39.260 A:middle L:90% stevens who was a photographer, photograph, photographer extraordinaire 539 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:43.809 A:middle L:90% . And I once made a remark to him seeing 540 00:35:43.809 --> 00:35:46.360 A:middle L:90% a photograph of his that that summed up everything that 541 00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:51.530 A:middle L:90% he was and everything that he is. Yeah, 542 00:35:51.530 --> 00:35:53.889 A:middle L:90% that time is alive. Uh, after he died 543 00:35:53.909 --> 00:35:58.900 A:middle L:90% , almost immediately after his di uh his daughter gave 544 00:35:58.900 --> 00:36:01.670 A:middle L:90% me that photograph which hangs in my office In the 545 00:36:01.699 --> 00:36:06.389 A:middle L:90% nicest, which one is it? It's a photograph 546 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:10.090 A:middle L:90% of a sky and ascend. Uh, you could 547 00:36:10.090 --> 00:36:13.809 A:middle L:90% also say see, but it's it's the meeting of 548 00:36:13.809 --> 00:36:19.239 A:middle L:90% these two. Uh it's just extraordinarily riveting. And 549 00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.789 A:middle L:90% yet if you wanted to be cruel, you say 550 00:36:21.789 --> 00:36:24.530 A:middle L:90% it's quite flat meaning that unless you look very carefully 551 00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:29.000 A:middle L:90% , it looks like different shades of black and white 552 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.130 A:middle L:90% in black and white. Um but an immaculate focus 553 00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:37.750 A:middle L:90% focus. It's that's it and that's, that was 554 00:36:37.750 --> 00:36:40.869 A:middle L:90% something that I learned from Warren stevens was just that 555 00:36:40.869 --> 00:36:45.969 A:middle L:90% simple word focuses everything. I loved how he would 556 00:36:45.969 --> 00:36:49.130 A:middle L:90% get out students. Um he'd give them a negative 557 00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:51.869 A:middle L:90% and say come up now with prints and then and 558 00:36:51.869 --> 00:36:53.380 A:middle L:90% he said, I want them dripping, I don't 559 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:55.449 A:middle L:90% want them dried or anything like this. And so 560 00:36:55.449 --> 00:36:58.780 A:middle L:90% they'd come out with a clutch of some five different 561 00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:00.889 A:middle L:90% prints. And he would stand there and he he 562 00:37:00.889 --> 00:37:05.269 A:middle L:90% would give them a seminar just them as they they 563 00:37:05.269 --> 00:37:07.119 A:middle L:90% had these little prints on their hair. And he 564 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.750 A:middle L:90% was saying now, why is this better than that 565 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:13.969 A:middle L:90% ? Why is this unsuccessful? But he's got that 566 00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:16.500 A:middle L:90% wonderful little piece there. What does? And it 567 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:21.230 A:middle L:90% would be about these wet dripping things on the floor 568 00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:23.760 A:middle L:90% . It was an amazing act of instruction. It 569 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:27.849 A:middle L:90% was an amazing act of getting people to see and 570 00:37:27.849 --> 00:37:30.969 A:middle L:90% compare the differences and similarities and the significance of those 571 00:37:30.969 --> 00:37:37.239 A:middle L:90% similarities that coexisted in that, in that wet soggy 572 00:37:37.250 --> 00:37:39.510 A:middle L:90% print, ripping on your shoes, dripping on your 573 00:37:39.510 --> 00:37:43.480 A:middle L:90% shoes and on the floor Mitchell hall? Remember Mitchell 574 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.880 A:middle L:90% hall? An old farmhouse? I got many a 575 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:47.590 A:middle L:90% critique from him. All right, So, you 576 00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:50.250 A:middle L:90% you went through this, I went to that that 577 00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:52.849 A:middle L:90% picture has no guts. It wasn't dark enough. 578 00:37:52.929 --> 00:38:00.210 A:middle L:90% Okay, now, what was the question? What 579 00:38:00.210 --> 00:38:05.659 A:middle L:90% do you think of my picture in that was the 580 00:38:05.659 --> 00:38:09.920 A:middle L:90% and and Warren Stephens was the preface to? Well 581 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:14.650 A:middle L:90% , the question was, what accomplishment your career do 582 00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:15.980 A:middle L:90% you think you're best known for? Besides one of 583 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:20.280 A:middle L:90% your photographs now? No, I'm not a good 584 00:38:20.289 --> 00:38:24.519 A:middle L:90% photographer. I just take photographs. Um I would 585 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:30.059 A:middle L:90% say that best known for um because it got me 586 00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:37.440 A:middle L:90% the fellowship of the british psychological society uh for um 587 00:38:37.820 --> 00:38:40.590 A:middle L:90% contributions to the theory and practice of psychology. So 588 00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:43.940 A:middle L:90% it had to have something and I didn't offer with 589 00:38:43.949 --> 00:38:45.670 A:middle L:90% them. I mean, I wasn't asked to send 590 00:38:45.670 --> 00:38:49.070 A:middle L:90% it, you know, good my best works or 591 00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:55.070 A:middle L:90% anything like that. Um That was matrix analysis um 592 00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:02.869 A:middle L:90% which is a technique of actually mapping the uh the 593 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:09.449 A:middle L:90% the cognitive structures uh of materials and being able then 594 00:39:09.460 --> 00:39:15.019 A:middle L:90% to determine what appropriate instructional strategies there are for each 595 00:39:15.019 --> 00:39:17.429 A:middle L:90% one of these structures, all of which are nested 596 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:21.179 A:middle L:90% one within another, not just cereal, but three 597 00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:25.210 A:middle L:90% dimensionally. Um That was uh that was used by 598 00:39:25.210 --> 00:39:30.179 A:middle L:90% Nasa uh to analyze some of the dramatic moments that 599 00:39:30.190 --> 00:39:35.420 A:middle L:90% took place in Nasa history. Um So the applications 600 00:39:35.420 --> 00:39:37.590 A:middle L:90% of that. Uh So I I think for as 601 00:39:37.590 --> 00:39:43.210 A:middle L:90% a psychologist that what people would remember, I think 602 00:39:43.210 --> 00:39:51.110 A:middle L:90% that The three articles, 1 article is a theory 603 00:39:51.110 --> 00:39:53.909 A:middle L:90% of advice which appeared in instructional science which has been 604 00:39:53.909 --> 00:40:00.579 A:middle L:90% reprinted any number of times, including books of collections 605 00:40:00.579 --> 00:40:07.469 A:middle L:90% of publications in our field and which looks at how 606 00:40:07.469 --> 00:40:09.780 A:middle L:90% do we give advice? Who owns advice? Do 607 00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:14.010 A:middle L:90% you take advice? And what are the models behind 608 00:40:14.010 --> 00:40:22.750 A:middle L:90% different theories of advice? Um Which I wrote um 609 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.949 A:middle L:90% on the basis of a presentation that I was going 610 00:40:25.949 --> 00:40:29.460 A:middle L:90% to give to a c. T many years ago 611 00:40:29.469 --> 00:40:30.989 A:middle L:90% and at the last moment was unable to go. 612 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:35.739 A:middle L:90% And very reluctantly they agreed for it to be done 613 00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:38.400 A:middle L:90% by means of video. And on that video led 614 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.789 A:middle L:90% me to write the article for instructional science. Uh 615 00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.699 A:middle L:90% the important thing about articles for instructional sciences, they 616 00:40:45.699 --> 00:40:47.239 A:middle L:90% asked you for the articles and they had to be 617 00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:51.900 A:middle L:90% a minimum of 25 published pages. So it doesn't 618 00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:53.769 A:middle L:90% , it was a heavy piece of work, but 619 00:40:53.780 --> 00:41:00.670 A:middle L:90% anyway, and uh I still I'm still quite happy 620 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:06.969 A:middle L:90% with that. Um I think the uh the review 621 00:41:06.969 --> 00:41:09.809 A:middle L:90% of the literature that Gemma Hartley and I did have 622 00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:15.820 A:middle L:90% advanced organizers uh which got me into great trouble uh 623 00:41:15.829 --> 00:41:22.880 A:middle L:90% with the originator, Advanced organizers who believed I was 624 00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:27.980 A:middle L:90% being just nasty to him and his publications. Um 625 00:41:27.989 --> 00:41:30.489 A:middle L:90% David Ausubel. Uh it wasn't it was just it 626 00:41:30.489 --> 00:41:35.030 A:middle L:90% was a literature of advanced organizers. Is that the 627 00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:37.630 A:middle L:90% one on pre instructional strategies? Yes, yes. 628 00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:39.659 A:middle L:90% And part of that I republished as a chapter in 629 00:41:39.659 --> 00:41:44.679 A:middle L:90% one of my one of my books. Um I 630 00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:54.610 A:middle L:90% think the the the book that I the Management of 631 00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:59.280 A:middle L:90% Learning, it was my first real book. I'd 632 00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.519 A:middle L:90% written two books before that with other people. Um 633 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.820 A:middle L:90% was written and bob mega wrote the introduction to that 634 00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:12.119 A:middle L:90% . And the book came out of an introduction that 635 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.239 A:middle L:90% I wrote for one of Megan's books, Mega and 636 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:16.079 A:middle L:90% I worked together. We should include him in all 637 00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:20.960 A:middle L:90% of this because we wrote, we were actually physically 638 00:42:20.969 --> 00:42:23.659 A:middle L:90% uh worked for at the same time, he was 639 00:42:23.659 --> 00:42:30.360 A:middle L:90% director of research uh for a company in paris and 640 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.619 A:middle L:90% he lived in paris where he was during this time 641 00:42:31.650 --> 00:42:36.820 A:middle L:90% . So we work very closely over that time And 642 00:42:36.829 --> 00:42:43.860 A:middle L:90% on one overseas trip um that he made returning to 643 00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:47.989 A:middle L:90% London with a duty free bottle of gin. Um 644 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.920 A:middle L:90% He and I wrote an article on the importance of 645 00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:58.800 A:middle L:90% footnotes in professional literature, just been published in a 646 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:00.599 A:middle L:90% number of places, which is semi humorous and you 647 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:08.980 A:middle L:90% can smell the gin in the article. Uh and 648 00:43:08.980 --> 00:43:12.789 A:middle L:90% it was about, you know, you only find 649 00:43:12.789 --> 00:43:15.460 A:middle L:90% footnotes in the very best literature. That's how you 650 00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:19.230 A:middle L:90% can tell that refereed uh, footnotes are always at 651 00:43:19.230 --> 00:43:22.289 A:middle L:90% the bottom of the page because um you put a 652 00:43:22.289 --> 00:43:24.800 A:middle L:90% number in the middle of the page and you see 653 00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.579 A:middle L:90% that number and the eye goes right down to the 654 00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:30.829 A:middle L:90% bottom of the page. And in the article, 655 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.019 A:middle L:90% it's got down in the footnote. Gotcha! So 656 00:43:35.019 --> 00:43:36.670 A:middle L:90% the the article. So the whole thing. So 657 00:43:36.670 --> 00:43:38.929 A:middle L:90% it it was um, a semi drunken article that 658 00:43:38.929 --> 00:43:49.230 A:middle L:90% they had no difficulty getting it published the and so 659 00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.869 A:middle L:90% that was an important book. But in terms of 660 00:43:52.869 --> 00:43:55.860 A:middle L:90% contribution, uh, the McGraw Hill Book on objectives 661 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:59.369 A:middle L:90% was very important that somebody walked one of my students 662 00:43:59.369 --> 00:44:00.860 A:middle L:90% many years ago, walked off with my car. 663 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.050 A:middle L:90% All right, then, it's still available. Uh 664 00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:06.650 A:middle L:90% , you could most available at all in amazon news 665 00:44:06.650 --> 00:44:09.619 A:middle L:90% book. Um because he opened up the field of 666 00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:13.840 A:middle L:90% objectives, he dealt with advanced organizers. It dealt 667 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:17.139 A:middle L:90% with introductions, dealt with all kinds of things that 668 00:44:17.150 --> 00:44:21.349 A:middle L:90% in which one got a sense of direction as well 669 00:44:21.349 --> 00:44:27.719 A:middle L:90% as being told directly by behavioral goal or behavioral statement 670 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:35.550 A:middle L:90% and and even down to um, uh, executive 671 00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:38.679 A:middle L:90% summaries. Um and two conclusions, two things as 672 00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:43.519 A:middle L:90% being areas in which you get direction and the direction 673 00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:46.480 A:middle L:90% can often be uh huh. Not out of alignment 674 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:49.610 A:middle L:90% with what you get at the beginning with what you 675 00:44:49.610 --> 00:44:52.349 A:middle L:90% get at the end and appropriately out of alignment because 676 00:44:52.349 --> 00:44:53.929 A:middle L:90% you've made a journey between the two. So where 677 00:44:53.929 --> 00:44:58.110 A:middle L:90% you start off is necessarily where you necessarily have to 678 00:44:58.110 --> 00:45:00.469 A:middle L:90% finish, but you attract somebody on a journey. 679 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.679 A:middle L:90% Uh, so what you say at the very early 680 00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:06.300 A:middle L:90% part, uh, they haven't been amazed. You 681 00:45:06.300 --> 00:45:09.269 A:middle L:90% mean? Yeah, these takeaways when what I imagine 682 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.650 A:middle L:90% where we're going to go with this. Um So 683 00:45:13.650 --> 00:45:17.780 A:middle L:90% I think the uh management of learning, which in 684 00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:21.579 A:middle L:90% America the addition is the same as the titles, 685 00:45:21.579 --> 00:45:30.309 A:middle L:90% different competency based learning um and behaviors the the article 686 00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:36.769 A:middle L:90% with jim pre instructional strategies and the theory advice would 687 00:45:36.769 --> 00:45:39.030 A:middle L:90% be things that I'd still be proud of because I 688 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.349 A:middle L:90% see them parts being still quoted. Uh they're still 689 00:45:43.349 --> 00:45:45.590 A:middle L:90% being reprinted by other people. Was in terms of 690 00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:49.889 A:middle L:90% collections, their their articles that have stood the it's 691 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:52.750 A:middle L:90% time we centered your matrix analysis maybe three years ago 692 00:45:52.750 --> 00:45:55.989 A:middle L:90% in an article. So it's still alive. One 693 00:45:55.989 --> 00:46:00.460 A:middle L:90% last question. What sage advice would you give a 694 00:46:00.460 --> 00:46:02.460 A:middle L:90% new person? Just starting our field is a fact 695 00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:13.199 A:middle L:90% member today. I think that you have to recognize 696 00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:23.960 A:middle L:90% that we are that paradigms change and our field defined 697 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:30.329 A:middle L:90% by as an exemplar istea at indiana University, as 698 00:46:30.329 --> 00:46:34.590 A:middle L:90% well as the field in florida state and elsewhere, 699 00:46:35.380 --> 00:46:42.860 A:middle L:90% um, is awaiting a new paradigm shift and it's 700 00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:49.090 A:middle L:90% timely. Yeah, because the changes that are happening 701 00:46:49.090 --> 00:46:54.000 A:middle L:90% within technology and the problems that education and training face 702 00:46:54.670 --> 00:47:05.199 A:middle L:90% is so enormous that something has to happen and hopefully 703 00:47:05.210 --> 00:47:09.210 A:middle L:90% it will happen in universities, um who have got 704 00:47:09.210 --> 00:47:14.429 A:middle L:90% the time to be able to think about what is 705 00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.409 A:middle L:90% the next part of the story. It's a story 706 00:47:17.409 --> 00:47:22.000 A:middle L:90% that hasn't been completely told. It's a story that's 707 00:47:23.269 --> 00:47:30.789 A:middle L:90% impatient for not a reinvention, but a complete break 708 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:35.750 A:middle L:90% with the past and a new beginning. Well, 709 00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:37.389 A:middle L:90% thank you very much for your time and sharing your 710 00:47:37.389 --> 00:47:39.670 A:middle L:90% thoughts with us is most appreciated. It was fun 711 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:40.710 A:middle L:90% . Thank you. Thank you.