many individuals have been involved in our field from the
beginning and have witnessed firsthand its growth and the impact
on what we do in training and in education.
In this program. We'll be talking with Dr Ivor
Davies, who is a faculty member At Indiana University
for over 30 years. Welcome Dr Davies, thank
you. I'd like to begin by asking you what
created your interest and motivated you to pursue a career
in this field. I didn't start off thinking of
having a career in the field. Uh I was
trained as a psychologist and had worked for a number
of years uh concerned with a concept acquisition and that
was my area of interest in psychology and I was
invited here at Indiana University to give a lecture an
international series. I was in the indian ocean during
some work in the Maldives at that time, and
my wife sent me a telegram saying you've got this
invitation and I would accept it if you can.
I was in mind not to accept it having been
away, I wanted to get back home. But
anyway, I came out here one November and gave
a lecture on structure and strategy in valentine. And
as a result of that, they asked me to
stay on a few more days. By the way
, the funding for the lecture was was coming from
the United States government in terms of an interest in
community colleges. And so I gave a lecture in
valentine and they asked me to stay on a few
more days, which I did. The weather was
wonderful. It was an indian summer and I went
back home that as far as I was concerned was
the end of the matter of both indiana uh and
of talking to people who were in a field which
they nervously called instructional development at that time. Then
I received a telephone call which was placed by Tom
Sharpe, sorry Tom Schwinn um an early pioneer in
our field who was then a graduate student in the
program and asked if I would be interested in talking
to Gene Farris, who had then been just appointed
as dean of Learning resources in valentine. Previous to
that, he had been associate executive director of the
Audiovisual Center. And I said yes, and jean
asked me if I was interested perhaps of thinking of
coming here. I said uh yeah, I've always
had an idea that you should never close down on
any interview or any job opportunities until they got serious
. And I said, okay, we'll write to
you and then you you can think about what we're
proposing. So he wrote to me. Um and
the result of that was I came for what I
thought was an interview um for an appointment in a
new field which had been created here by changing the
name of a department which was basically audiovisual um to
instructional systems technology. That sort of intrigued me though
, I saw it very narrowly. Um So I
came here um and in the course of the interview
, I was very uncomfortable because they seem to be
asking me questions uh about why I wasn't asking them
questions and I suddenly realized that this was not an
interview that had already offered me the job, I
was interviewing them to see if I was willing to
come. Mhm. Which sort of threw things anyway
towards the end of the afternoon, on the second
set of conversations we had uh I said that I
would be willing to come because at that time my
Children were young and I was thinking I was doing
more and more work in the United, in the
United States and he seemed to be a good time
if I was ever going to move physically uh to
move when they were young. Um And they said
, well, when would you be willing to come
? I said, well, it couldn't come for
two years. Their faces dropped. Uh They saw
that as presenting, you know, enormous problems.
Um and so they said, why? And I
said, well, I have a project which I
have to complete and so two years, the first
time I don't be able to come, so jean
was asked to take me to see um the little
library. And so they got me out of the
room, which was a brian hall and the Dean
of faculties office and ultimately came back and they said
, well, here's a proposal. Well, a
point you um as professor uh tenure on the first
day of the new semester in the academic year,
we'll give you a leave of absence for two years
on the next day, but we'll pay you a
podium uh, per diem rate for all the time
that you were able to come during the two years
. So I arrived as it were to two years
late, bob Hynek had been the man who proposed
the name change, instructional systems technology only. Larson
was then, um, uh, he had the
title from a previous role he had of Dean Dean
Holy Larson. Uh, he was chairman of,
uh, of the department. He saw it as
being too narrow a definition of the field, but
bob really drove it. He'd been appointed about two
years previous and he's been pointed again as a,
as a senior professor and with a publishing background.
And so instructional systems technology was what it became.
Um, if I can interrupt, you know,
you were involved. I know at least you have
one well cited article Jim Hartley on programmed instruction.
So in some ways you had some contact with the
field before really instructions, I became formula for formal
and uh, instructional technology. What kind of shift
did that indicate when we switched from? Well,
here it was, I think audiovisual communications to instructional
systems technology. What do we a paradigm shift?
What what kind of, how would you characterize that
shift? And we picked up this new term,
the new term, the term instructional design as used
within the department, um which resulted in an article
written by Gene Farris, which is really the the
most historical article because he's concerned with defining the nature
of instructional design and development. Is that the one
was an avian structure? Yes, Yes. Um
and the department was founded on that article or it
was in their minds and Gene Farris wrote it as
an article, but the even the coursework reflected the
boxes within that linear program. Okay. And that
was much richer than just defining things in terms of
instructional technology. That I think that the instructional technology
piece was driven by a significant change in the technology
that the department saw as the future, which was
that film would be only part of the future.
Not in fact the mainstay, but the film library
would found the change in the department through the use
of new technology. And of course, part of
that new technology was this enormous creative, if any
, fantastic creation called the overhead projector. Uh,
and the overhead projector really uh, drove that because
it's surprised, I remember how many people were surprised
when someone arrived with an overhead projector and switched it
on and the writing on the wall. Uh they
took them back to the old testament and the pharaohs
and everywhere else. Um and so, um and
then photography became a much more important part of the
field. Um The design part was what harvey fry
had always been interested in even in the days of
um of the old audiovisual department, but he took
photography and graphics and design and that became an important
part of the new department. So that's where the
design portion of the program, which was a master's
program for the most part of that time. Then
came the development of developing materials for that, which
was the instruction. The technology merely reflected what everybody's
saying. Isn't this interesting technology, the world's change
, We've got a new industrial revolution um but we
never really um defined ourselves other than using technology until
the days of the Foundation, if you like,
of Microsoft. Okay, what was your professional preparation
for entering the field? Um So if we define
, I enter in the field on the first day
that I came here before I was given leave of
absence one day on that one day. Um I
suppose it was that I had just published a book
which was called The Management of Learning from McGraw Hill
. Um which about said it all, I was
interested in learning concepts is a subset of all of
that program. Learning uh was something that was implementing
that, because B. F. Skinner at that
time as a psychologist interested me greatly. I knew
Skinner slightly personally, both in europe. The time
is spent in europe as well as the time that
he uh was here um because Skinner was originally chairman
of the psychology department here at Iu and he went
to Harvard where I met him again on the monday
after JFK's funeral when Harvard and everywhere else in the
United States shut down. And I arrived that day
for an interview with Skinner. Uh but he still
met me. Um and he's uh remember that his
office was Rome in the football stadium, which rather
puzzled me. That is such a distinguished man,
would have an office in the football stadium in the
in the basement of the football stadium. But anyway
, uh and so I think that that really was
the start of extended interest in what I was really
about. Um was interested in how you manage learning
, so that learning uh Mhm. Takes place and
looking uh huh mentally back of the chapters in that
book, I think that they neatly fit what the
idea was in redefining the field. And I always
imagined that only lasted. Had seen the proposal for
that book, which is quite possible. Hynek might
have got him through his publishing contact with McGraw Hill
. And so that was one of the reasons that
I was invited uh for that international series. Okay
. You mentioned your backgrounds in psychology and your dissertation
was on concept learning concept attainment. Uh but it
was from a psychology standpoint as opposed to a constructive
design standpoint at that time, if you were directing
a student's dissertation, they are still working with students
instructional design. And a student came to you and
said I would like to either replicate your study or
to act on one of the recommendations you made.
Would that still be relevant, a relevant study for
research for our field today? Yes, because uh
right, first of all, the instrument of that
, I used uh for my study which was an
experiment With 110 people um who were technical people,
was a program learning text because that enabled me,
I had no particular interest in it other than the
fact that the program learning text gave me a standard
instrument That could be used for people in different situations
. 110 people, a lot of people to manage
. Um and I was interested in answering the question
basically of whether concept acquisition was all or none or
was incremental. That argument still exists within the field
. Um because of the I was able to use
what we would then call what we would now call
a supercomputer in those days, which was american military
british military um uh defense Computer for the purpose of
the study, because it was interested the british government
. And and so I was able to do extraordinary
things in terms of the analysis of the data.
And we knew everything about the 110 people from their
religious status, uh, how many Children they had
when they were born, where they were born,
the health. And we didn't use all those variables
. But I'm simply saying we had enormous data in
terms of the background of those people. And the
study became well known only because it was regarded as
one of the five best studies in comparative um experimental
work because of the design and the analysis. Okay
, what did I find? I found that in
this particular instance that concept acquisition was all or none
that you either got the concept of us. You
didn't get the concept if you didn't get the concept
, what you got was a knowledge chain. Um
so often a verbal chain, but it could be
a motor chain, but people would still say I
got the concept, but it wasn't a concept,
it was a motor chain in using gardeners terms.
Okay, well you told us about your gestation,
that very understanding and so viable today. So let's
go back to the time period right after you graduated
in, what were your aspirations and uh your interest
when when you started your first job? After your
doctor? Okay. I had been educated in europe
, I've been in Germany, had been educated in
the United Kingdom and I had been educated at the
university of Illinois where I have a master's degree in
psychology. Um And so my aim always after The
my 18 months in Havana Champagne was to come back
to the United States. Um I was um intrigued
uh coming back for you know, maybe four or
five years and then going back to europe, but
I enjoyed what I have done a barn, a
champagne, uh the reason I chose a bottle of
champagne, I could use any choose any university uh
in the United States, uh was that there was
a british uh faculty member um at Havana, who's
who's area was personality and I was at that time
particularly interested in personality as a graduate student. And
I arrived in Havana and I found out that he
was going to be on sabbatical leave for the next
year. So that killed my interesting in personality.
And that led me basically into area particularly of of
of training, and I began to get interested in
this literature that couldn't answer a basic question of what
was the concept of the concept? Okay, all
right. Um so that really was uh where so
a key point in my whole of my career,
professional career was the University of Illinois. I think
it changed my worldview. Um It opened me up
uh to the whole area of technology at that time
because it's a very good engineering school. Um and
I lived in an independent house with students who are
in engineering, so I I developed that sort of
interest um and a lot of the work that I
subsequently did, whilst I was active in I.
S. T. Here at the University of Illinois
, was as a consultant for major American companies,
the most important of which in my career was the
20 years that I spent as a senior consultant with
general electric, which was an application of everything that
I did. But they never used the words instructional
systems technology because I never have thought that it was
a useful label and was a dangerous label in terms
of how people would perceive who we were and what
we were. And I did not Niecy, I
did not want to have that and to be rather
cruel as a mark of cain on my forehead.
So I either define myself as a psychologist and or
I define myself as someone interested when I was active
in. I. S. Stay in the area
of human performance technology, which I define the technology
pieces simply as know how and nothing to do with
hardware or technology in the technology sense of the term
as we use it even today. Sure, okay
. Um over the years, I know you've seen
a lot of trends, a lot of fads come
and go on the field. But what are a
couple of the major changes you saw that had a
significant impact on our field or on other fields that
we might affect? Well, let's go from one
end to the other end, the whole continuum,
let's look at the and then there's been a journey
in between. But I think the journey is less
interesting than where it began. It began with photographs
and with drawings, graphics. Harvey fry was a
good area and Mac Fleming was a good area where
that all began. And today uh our area which
were describing and talking about which is much bigger than
Isda here is to be best to be seen in
the name changes that are taking place in departments of
psychology department, which I think gives you an idea
of just how far we've moved and the normally now
of the new possibilities that are open to us and
this is the names of the most important departments of
psychology are some variant of this department of Brain and
Psychological Sciences MRI. And the ability to see what
is happening in the brain has transformed research in our
area, everybody's area. How do you think that
will impact our field? I'd be very interested to
see if it does okay. Um And the caution
that's in that remark of mine is simply of course
the size of the investment uh in order to get
time on M. R. I. Regardless of
whether you purchase an M. R. I.
Uh But of course prices are going down and things
do change. But it requires and and add on
to training of people in our field in order to
start opening up that area. But that area of
being able to see what's going on this moment in
terms of learning acquisition um is where the future lies
. So in a sense, instructional systems technology,
I hate the limitation to instruction. Um Systems is
a very rich term, like it much more systemic
, is much, much more interesting than systematic,
though much of our literature is heavily systematic. Just
look at the graphics in the articles, just how
systematic they are, how they've even changed over the
years. Yes, yes, I think it's a
worthy study would be sometime of looking at dissertations in
our field in terms of just the graphics uh that
they've used and the design even just of the tables
that are used within the dissertations over a period of
time. Um I once got a, had a
student do a very small version of what we're talking
about um Day or before he died, gave me
all the editions of his books, book on audiovisual
. Um I basically comes down to four Complete editions
, edition one. It is the earliest one to
addition, for I have them on the shelf on
my office to this day, not quite certain what
I should do with them. But anyway, what
I asked the student to do is a graduate student
uh, was to find out what were the differences
between the additions. Now there are obvious differences.
Um, and one of the major differences, the
book's got thicker and of course the photographs were changed
because they all wanted to get it to be adopted
as a textbook. And so textbook committees require to
have a modern version of a ford car, not
something that's uh seven or 10 years old. So
photographs and drawings were changed, but the best representation
of Dale's contribution to the field in terms of the
kind of experience is in addition one, all the
extra texture like barnacles on a ship. They interfered
with the message. They were added, presumably because
he thought he was a better explication of the message
. But the message is its clearest and in its
beautiful form. It has arrogance in in the earliest
edition and the elegance is lost in addition form.
I see very interesting uh your career, is it
? I see some common themes coming through it.
What if you could tell us some of the major
ideas or approaches that have influenced your career and some
of the people that have influenced your career? Well
, we mentioned B. F. Skinner. Uh
Bearskin a intrigued me greatly because initially he promised a
science of learning and the idea of that. The
concept of that, the richness of that whether we
delivered or not. It was intriguing to apply science
to. It was the same sort of battle that
he was fighting that we have in terms of climate
because now we talk about the science of climate change
. In other words, you're trying to get brownie
points and authority and credibility because you're talking had a
science side. And so that the science of learning
, a science of teaching, which is what he
was talking about, was very attractive. Um and
he was very attractive. A man in terms of
how he spoke. Um He was had become in
the time that I knew him, as I say
, still casually uh philosopher of psychology, and particularly
a philosopher of this science. And I saw a
very interesting event take place, which always intrigued me
. And he was invited to give a lecture to
the Royal Society um in London, and now the
Royal Society is the most distinguished society for scientists,
uh certainly in europe, and probably to an extent
in the world to get an effort as a fellowship
of the Royal Society is really something It was founded
in 1665. So he's been around a long time
, um and you're invited to become a member and
it's it's uh if you like, it's a substitute
for a nobel prize. So these are really the
princes of Physics Engineering. Um No education, it's
only in the last few years that psychologist has ever
become, remember, and he was invited to give
this lecture. Now, for some whatever reason,
I was invited to go along in the audience,
which was a great occasion. Uh So I sat
there and here was one of my heroes, B
. F. Skinner, um and I had recently
spoken to him again in the States and he was
a disaster, and it must have been a very
humbling experience for him. Okay, what had happened
? He had underestimated his audience. He hadn't realized
that they could get what he was saying from the
first sentence in his paragraph. He didn't need the
other sentences in the paragraph. Mhm. That was
a turning point. Um because little while afterwards I
was doing some work on assignment and I was here
, I mean a that that in South Africa and
during the course I was in South Africa, A
friend of mine said uh we've got a guest coming
. Uh she's an american and we we would like
to take her out to brian some country club in
Johannesburg from a saturday supper glands. We'd like you
to come along and I didn't feel comfortable with that
, you know, dancing with my arm around her
waist and what would my wife think? You know
and would you be happy about this? And who
was this woman? You know and things like this
? Her name is Marianne Kellogg. Mhm. Another
keystone in my life because she introduced me to probably
the most important man I've ever met um who really
did redefine my life. Um And so I was
bullied into it and so I went along and during
the course of the evening and I don't think so
what do you do and all these sort of things
I explained to her and she says you know we
have a younger senior executive um in G. And
he has a PhD in chemical engineering from the University
of Illinois. And you roughly overlap, did you
know him? And I didn't know him, but
I knew his major professor as it turned out.
Um And she says he has a product a project
product but with no applications were looking for uh help
him because if he doesn't get any applications, his
career is going to be very limited. This is
the research and development that's taken place has been very
very costly. Um And so I said, well
, yeah, sounds interesting. And she put me
in touch with him. Um this young man,
she said now it's going to be difficult for you
because he's very bright, he's very impatient. And
when you talk to him um make certain your paragraphs
are short because you'll get the point in the first
sentence. Wasn't that history repeating itself? I mean
, I mean, she sold her case immediately,
but he put me on my guard and that man
was Jack Welch And off and on over the 20
years, I worked on different projects within G some
directly for him, some products that he was interested
in, something to do with him, but he
was always interested in them. And that was exactly
welsh and Welsh taught me business, I sometimes officially
say my NBA came from Welsh. Yeah. Um
and so for 20 years, I, during the
time before he became chairman and Ceo until the days
that he was chairman and and one of the biggest
projects that I had, which again is a psychologist
and a concept, the importance of concept acquisition,
the importance of seeing how people learn or retain and
how people can lose and be changed themselves. Came
from a project that I did for him, which
was involved with workout, a process that well known
in the literature, but my responsibility was to change
um, gS industrial businesses. That was Power Systems
Motors from being a company, an american company that
was selling offshore to a global company. And I
said, well, how would you know when I'm
successful? He said, when I look at the
organization chart and see no evidence of americanisms, even
down to the names As well as a geographical locations
. And so for five years I was responsible for
changing the culture of the old Edison businesses or for
the most part located uh in schenectady, the Old
Northwest home of industry and the Industrial Revolution in the
United States. And subsequently the other defining moment came
when I was asked after some work that I've done
in Saudi Arabia uh to change to lead a group
of economists uh to change the economic base of the
kingdom, which took another five years, which is
now bearing fruit in terms of what's happening. So
change became a very important part of this. Um
interesting enough in terms of people, a man who
is responsible for the get involved in Saudi Arabia and
things as a man called Bill Carson, uh who
I've never met. Um I have spoken to once
on the telephone uh but he has sold me uh
to a number of people uh and one of them
um was a Saudi Arabian person uh who became as
where my sponsor in Saudi Arabia. So we've got
Bill Carson, we've got welshed Jack Welch and we've
got B. F. Skinner what a mix,
what a mix. Um people peripherally who had an
important part uh have been victims. Stein, I'm
interested in philosophy and Liechtenstein has always intrigued me,
particularly his blue books in which he deals with beauty
. I'm very interested in design how things fit together
, how the concepts emerge uh if you you want
. And I've sort of practiced that uh in the
house, the house has made in there. We
have we have that we built the house when we
came to the United States, but we couldn't afford
much. So we've added onto it over the years
and I designed all those major changes myself, did
a contract to use the contractor uh to actually carry
out the work. And I b I also acted
in those changes, which is again, the insight
that I was the project manager, I managed them
every morning. I met with the work people check
what they were doing would make changes if necessary.
Uh But I ran it so I learned very early
on the importance of execution and I learned that from
a man called Larry Bossidy, who used to be
a senior um part of the the executive staff of
General Electric and became Deputy Chairman at one time before
he moved to Honeywell. Um and let the importance
of getting things done. Just a simple importance of
getting things done here, bob miller, who was
one of the enduring photographers for Look magazine, made
a statement to me a year ago that photographers known
for one photograph. He joked that he could retired
early because he took that one photograph as a scholar
in the field and multiple fields. Now, What
one contribution do you think you're best known for?
Well, let me say, I want to preface
it because the photograph, one of the major people
in I. S. T. Um was Warren
stevens who was a photographer, photograph, photographer extraordinaire
. And I once made a remark to him seeing
a photograph of his that that summed up everything that
he was and everything that he is. Yeah,
that time is alive. Uh, after he died
, almost immediately after his di uh his daughter gave
me that photograph which hangs in my office In the
nicest, which one is it? It's a photograph
of a sky and ascend. Uh, you could
also say see, but it's it's the meeting of
these two. Uh it's just extraordinarily riveting. And
yet if you wanted to be cruel, you say
it's quite flat meaning that unless you look very carefully
, it looks like different shades of black and white
in black and white. Um but an immaculate focus
focus. It's that's it and that's, that was
something that I learned from Warren stevens was just that
simple word focuses everything. I loved how he would
get out students. Um he'd give them a negative
and say come up now with prints and then and
he said, I want them dripping, I don't
want them dried or anything like this. And so
they'd come out with a clutch of some five different
prints. And he would stand there and he he
would give them a seminar just them as they they
had these little prints on their hair. And he
was saying now, why is this better than that
? Why is this unsuccessful? But he's got that
wonderful little piece there. What does? And it
would be about these wet dripping things on the floor
. It was an amazing act of instruction. It
was an amazing act of getting people to see and
compare the differences and similarities and the significance of those
similarities that coexisted in that, in that wet soggy
print, ripping on your shoes, dripping on your
shoes and on the floor Mitchell hall? Remember Mitchell
hall? An old farmhouse? I got many a
critique from him. All right, So, you
you went through this, I went to that that
picture has no guts. It wasn't dark enough.
Okay, now, what was the question? What
do you think of my picture in that was the
and and Warren Stephens was the preface to? Well
, the question was, what accomplishment your career do
you think you're best known for? Besides one of
your photographs now? No, I'm not a good
photographer. I just take photographs. Um I would
say that best known for um because it got me
the fellowship of the british psychological society uh for um
contributions to the theory and practice of psychology. So
it had to have something and I didn't offer with
them. I mean, I wasn't asked to send
it, you know, good my best works or
anything like that. Um That was matrix analysis um
which is a technique of actually mapping the uh the
the cognitive structures uh of materials and being able then
to determine what appropriate instructional strategies there are for each
one of these structures, all of which are nested
one within another, not just cereal, but three
dimensionally. Um That was uh that was used by
Nasa uh to analyze some of the dramatic moments that
took place in Nasa history. Um So the applications
of that. Uh So I I think for as
a psychologist that what people would remember, I think
that The three articles, 1 article is a theory
of advice which appeared in instructional science which has been
reprinted any number of times, including books of collections
of publications in our field and which looks at how
do we give advice? Who owns advice? Do
you take advice? And what are the models behind
different theories of advice? Um Which I wrote um
on the basis of a presentation that I was going
to give to a c. T many years ago
and at the last moment was unable to go.
And very reluctantly they agreed for it to be done
by means of video. And on that video led
me to write the article for instructional science. Uh
the important thing about articles for instructional sciences, they
asked you for the articles and they had to be
a minimum of 25 published pages. So it doesn't
, it was a heavy piece of work, but
anyway, and uh I still I'm still quite happy
with that. Um I think the uh the review
of the literature that Gemma Hartley and I did have
advanced organizers uh which got me into great trouble uh
with the originator, Advanced organizers who believed I was
being just nasty to him and his publications. Um
David Ausubel. Uh it wasn't it was just it
was a literature of advanced organizers. Is that the
one on pre instructional strategies? Yes, yes.
And part of that I republished as a chapter in
one of my one of my books. Um I
think the the the book that I the Management of
Learning, it was my first real book. I'd
written two books before that with other people. Um
was written and bob mega wrote the introduction to that
. And the book came out of an introduction that
I wrote for one of Megan's books, Mega and
I worked together. We should include him in all
of this because we wrote, we were actually physically
uh worked for at the same time, he was
director of research uh for a company in paris and
he lived in paris where he was during this time
. So we work very closely over that time And
on one overseas trip um that he made returning to
London with a duty free bottle of gin. Um
He and I wrote an article on the importance of
footnotes in professional literature, just been published in a
number of places, which is semi humorous and you
can smell the gin in the article. Uh and
it was about, you know, you only find
footnotes in the very best literature. That's how you
can tell that refereed uh, footnotes are always at
the bottom of the page because um you put a
number in the middle of the page and you see
that number and the eye goes right down to the
bottom of the page. And in the article,
it's got down in the footnote. Gotcha! So
the the article. So the whole thing. So
it it was um, a semi drunken article that
they had no difficulty getting it published the and so
that was an important book. But in terms of
contribution, uh, the McGraw Hill Book on objectives
was very important that somebody walked one of my students
many years ago, walked off with my car.
All right, then, it's still available. Uh
, you could most available at all in amazon news
book. Um because he opened up the field of
objectives, he dealt with advanced organizers. It dealt
with introductions, dealt with all kinds of things that
in which one got a sense of direction as well
as being told directly by behavioral goal or behavioral statement
and and even down to um, uh, executive
summaries. Um and two conclusions, two things as
being areas in which you get direction and the direction
can often be uh huh. Not out of alignment
with what you get at the beginning with what you
get at the end and appropriately out of alignment because
you've made a journey between the two. So where
you start off is necessarily where you necessarily have to
finish, but you attract somebody on a journey.
Uh, so what you say at the very early
part, uh, they haven't been amazed. You
mean? Yeah, these takeaways when what I imagine
where we're going to go with this. Um So
I think the uh management of learning, which in
America the addition is the same as the titles,
different competency based learning um and behaviors the the article
with jim pre instructional strategies and the theory advice would
be things that I'd still be proud of because I
see them parts being still quoted. Uh they're still
being reprinted by other people. Was in terms of
collections, their their articles that have stood the it's
time we centered your matrix analysis maybe three years ago
in an article. So it's still alive. One
last question. What sage advice would you give a
new person? Just starting our field is a fact
member today. I think that you have to recognize
that we are that paradigms change and our field defined
by as an exemplar istea at indiana University, as
well as the field in florida state and elsewhere,
um, is awaiting a new paradigm shift and it's
timely. Yeah, because the changes that are happening
within technology and the problems that education and training face
is so enormous that something has to happen and hopefully
it will happen in universities, um who have got
the time to be able to think about what is
the next part of the story. It's a story
that hasn't been completely told. It's a story that's
impatient for not a reinvention, but a complete break
with the past and a new beginning. Well,
thank you very much for your time and sharing your
thoughts with us is most appreciated. It was fun
. Thank you. Thank you.