WEBVTT 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:20.640 [LAUGHTER] Click on it once. I think it'll work. 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.220 Use the mouse. I think 00:00:23.220 --> 00:00:27.250 you just have to click in that screen. 00:00:28.790 --> 00:00:31.750 [inaudible] 00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:18.390 submit your article. 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:20.805 Was that yearly or was that [inaudible] 00:01:20.805 --> 00:01:21.520 Yeah, yearly. 00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:23.910 Yeah. Do you have any publications that are 00:01:23.910 --> 00:01:26.250 having journals that details on that? 00:01:26.250 --> 00:01:28.050 That had that price? 00:01:28.050 --> 00:01:30.000 You're right, yeah. That's yearly. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.025 Maybe there's more, and all that's here. 00:01:32.025 --> 00:01:33.540 It would be like $10,000 for [OVERLAPPING] 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:35.860 For issues. 00:01:35.870 --> 00:01:38.325 I mean, that's the variable. 00:01:38.325 --> 00:01:40.460 In some cases, these journals, 00:01:40.460 --> 00:01:41.630 maybe in 2002, 00:01:41.630 --> 00:01:44.815 they were publishing fewer issues or fewer articles, 00:01:44.815 --> 00:01:50.660 but still, to increase by that amount is outrageous. 00:01:50.660 --> 00:01:51.860 [inaudible]. 00:01:53.300 --> 00:01:55.160 Are you going to talk about what 00:01:55.160 --> 00:01:56.645 the library's overall venture 00:01:56.645 --> 00:01:59.010 is versus this room? 00:01:59.060 --> 00:02:01.455 Yeah, if you want to mention it. 00:02:01.455 --> 00:02:03.930 I think the library's [OVERLAPPING]. 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:09.440 I think the library's budget for collections 00:02:09.440 --> 00:02:18.160 is $10 million plus. 00:02:18.160 --> 00:02:21.230 What we spend on journal articles and databases and 00:02:21.230 --> 00:02:25.520 journal subscriptions is nearly nine million dollars. 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:28.910 That's how much of our budget is going to make 00:02:28.910 --> 00:02:32.690 these things accessible to the Virginia Tech community. 00:02:32.690 --> 00:02:35.000 I come from the book publishing world, 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:39.700 and book publishing basically been stifled by this. 00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:41.770 If you go back to this, 00:02:41.770 --> 00:02:55.045 the price of books has increased, 00:02:55.045 --> 00:02:57.970 but not at an extraordinary rate, 00:02:57.970 --> 00:03:02.400 but this is the increase of serials. 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:07.580 It's just unsustainable no matter how you define it. 00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:11.590 That sets the background 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:16.060 for when it comes time to think about publishers. 00:03:16.060 --> 00:03:18.340 You have two options, 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:22.375 toll access journals or open access journals. 00:03:22.375 --> 00:03:25.840 Toll access are the ones like these 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.930 that are restricted access, 00:03:28.930 --> 00:03:31.295 so they're hidden behind the paywall, 00:03:31.295 --> 00:03:34.835 and the business model 00:03:34.835 --> 00:03:37.100 is essentially subscription to [NOISE] the library. 00:03:37.100 --> 00:03:39.740 They rely on libraries paying 00:03:39.740 --> 00:03:44.810 institutional subscriptions for those journals. 00:03:44.810 --> 00:03:51.030 Open access journal flips it. 00:03:51.030 --> 00:03:53.790 They're free online, free of charge, 00:03:53.790 --> 00:03:55.905 free of most copyright and licensing, 00:03:55.905 --> 00:03:57.950 and the business model is to pay for 00:03:57.950 --> 00:04:01.400 it upfront by authors, 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:03.410 granting agencies or publishers. 00:04:03.410 --> 00:04:05.900 They're already familiar with the term APC 00:04:05.900 --> 00:04:09.660 , article processing charge. 00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:14.695 Increasingly, in a journal like PLOS One, 00:04:14.695 --> 00:04:18.440 one of the largest open access journals, 00:04:18.440 --> 00:04:27.870 they charge an article processing charge of about $1,600. 00:04:29.030 --> 00:04:33.540 That's how open access journals are funded, 00:04:33.540 --> 00:04:35.970 and I'll come back to that in a second. 00:04:35.970 --> 00:04:39.140 But then there's an 00:04:39.140 --> 00:04:41.090 in-between which are called hybrid 00:04:41.090 --> 00:04:43.485 journals or what we call hybrid journals. 00:04:43.485 --> 00:04:46.125 They're toll access journals. 00:04:46.125 --> 00:04:49.760 They're subscription-based, but individually, 00:04:49.760 --> 00:04:53.160 you as an author can choose to have your article made 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:58.040 open access if you pay that article processing charge. 00:04:58.940 --> 00:05:02.045 For Neuroscience, which we talked about, 00:05:02.045 --> 00:05:04.295 which has the institutional 00:05:04.295 --> 00:05:06.470 annual subscription of 14,000, 00:05:06.470 --> 00:05:09.285 the APC is $2,400. 00:05:09.285 --> 00:05:18.780 That's typical, $1,000-3,000 is the range of APCs. 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:22.360 What happens is, if you go to the website, 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.005 for say, Neuroscience, 00:05:24.005 --> 00:05:26.285 they will tell you, 00:05:26.285 --> 00:05:27.845 here are your options, 00:05:27.845 --> 00:05:30.920 and they describe if 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:32.720 you want it open, here's what you have to do. 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:34.100 If you want a subscription, 00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:36.270 this is what you have to do. 00:05:36.410 --> 00:05:39.210 That's why, here in the libraries, 00:05:39.210 --> 00:05:42.965 we have a Virginia Tech open access subvention funding. 00:05:42.965 --> 00:05:46.665 We help faculty students. 00:05:46.665 --> 00:05:49.490 Anybody in the Virginia Tech community 00:05:49.490 --> 00:05:53.830 who wants to publish in an open access journal, 00:05:53.830 --> 00:05:58.610 we will fund up to $1,500 per article or 00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:04.395 $3,000 per year for those articles. 00:06:04.395 --> 00:06:07.670 We've been giving out for the last few years, 00:06:07.670 --> 00:06:12.630 well over $100,000 in APC grants. 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:19.410 Who just spoke, Gail is the person who oversees that. 00:06:19.410 --> 00:06:23.150 You can harass her if you're interested 00:06:23.150 --> 00:06:27.745 in getting enough in that subvention for an APC. 00:06:27.745 --> 00:06:33.365 The benefits of open access are pretty clear 00:06:33.365 --> 00:06:39.540 that you're basically providing worldwide access. 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:42.635 The international distribution is much higher. 00:06:42.635 --> 00:06:45.530 You get more exposure to your work. 00:06:45.530 --> 00:06:47.510 In terms of when you get 00:06:47.510 --> 00:06:49.955 grant funding from the US government, 00:06:49.955 --> 00:06:52.010 it's required, in many cases, 00:06:52.010 --> 00:06:56.625 that you make your work open access. 00:06:56.625 --> 00:07:01.405 It's requiring or it's fulfilling grant requirements. 00:07:01.405 --> 00:07:03.800 There's some questions about 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.650 higher citation rates that 00:07:06.650 --> 00:07:08.930 you're more likely to influence policy. 00:07:08.930 --> 00:07:11.840 All of these things are what people talk about 00:07:11.840 --> 00:07:16.050 when they are making the case for open access. 00:07:19.350 --> 00:07:24.790 I just wanted to quickly give you before we starts 00:07:24.790 --> 00:07:30.320 a quick overview some of the terminologies. 00:07:30.990 --> 00:07:34.210 Here you're going to find out in open access if 00:07:34.210 --> 00:07:37.165 they all are color-coded as others, 00:07:37.165 --> 00:07:38.650 so there's green, 00:07:38.650 --> 00:07:41.545 gold, platinum, and everything. 00:07:41.545 --> 00:07:44.380 But green is essentially self archiving, 00:07:44.380 --> 00:07:46.315 which means that you as the author, 00:07:46.315 --> 00:07:50.845 you take early version of your article, 00:07:50.845 --> 00:07:54.430 not the published version and you put it in 00:07:54.430 --> 00:07:56.680 a disciplinary repository or 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.205 the Virginia Tech repository, VTech works. 00:08:00.205 --> 00:08:02.230 Gold OA is when 00:08:02.230 --> 00:08:05.320 the publisher takes care of the making the article 00:08:05.320 --> 00:08:07.390 open access and they will deposit it 00:08:07.390 --> 00:08:11.360 in the appropriate repositories. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:18.040 Is anybody familiar with the terms pre-print, 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.190 post-print, and published versions? 00:08:21.190 --> 00:08:24.070 That's as well something that will come up as 00:08:24.070 --> 00:08:28.855 you're operating in this realm. 00:08:28.855 --> 00:08:33.850 The pre-print is the draft that 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:35.920 you're ready when it's ready to be submitted to 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:38.875 the publisher but the publisher has not seen it yet. 00:08:38.875 --> 00:08:40.420 That's the pre-print. 00:08:40.420 --> 00:08:43.390 You're free to do whatever you want with that pre-print. 00:08:43.390 --> 00:08:45.130 Green archiving is when you take 00:08:45.130 --> 00:08:47.560 that pre-print and you put it online. 00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:49.810 Some fields like physics now, 00:08:49.810 --> 00:08:51.400 preprints or the way 00:08:51.400 --> 00:08:53.620 that scholarly communication happens. 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:56.995 There's a preprint server called Archive 00:08:56.995 --> 00:09:01.210 and it's hugely successful and popular in physics. 00:09:01.210 --> 00:09:05.080 It's less so in other fields. 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.340 The post-print, which is a misnomer, 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:11.260 but because it suggests that 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:15.100 it's after the article has been printed. 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:19.180 It is the accepted version. It's a draft. 00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:20.740 It's been peer-reviewed and 00:09:20.740 --> 00:09:23.485 incorporates all required versions. 00:09:23.485 --> 00:09:25.855 They're are all required revisions. 00:09:25.855 --> 00:09:28.960 That's important because some publishers 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.420 have requirements around what you can make 00:09:31.420 --> 00:09:33.160 available open access and they will 00:09:33.160 --> 00:09:36.580 refer to those reprinted. 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:37.885 Then there's the published version 00:09:37.885 --> 00:09:39.610 or the version of record. 00:09:39.610 --> 00:09:41.860 That is the final published version of 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:45.115 the article that's out on the copy editing. 00:09:45.115 --> 00:09:49.070 All of the publishers value add to it. 00:09:50.430 --> 00:09:52.960 There they are again, pre-print, 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.025 post-print, and published version. 00:09:55.025 --> 00:09:58.300 Another term is embargo. 00:09:58.400 --> 00:10:04.185 I have here a page from the library's online catalog. 00:10:04.185 --> 00:10:07.520 Sometimes you look at these articles, 00:10:07.520 --> 00:10:10.300 you find a journal and you see it 00:10:10.300 --> 00:10:13.520 says full text delayed six months. 00:10:14.010 --> 00:10:16.990 All of those are six months. 00:10:16.990 --> 00:10:20.815 That's when publishers say that 00:10:20.815 --> 00:10:23.155 they're willing to provide 00:10:23.155 --> 00:10:25.780 an Open Access version of your article. 00:10:25.780 --> 00:10:27.715 But they're going to wait 00:10:27.715 --> 00:10:30.070 six months because they want to get 00:10:30.070 --> 00:10:32.470 the money from the subscriptions. 00:10:32.470 --> 00:10:35.860 That as well is something you have to factor 00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:41.600 into your decision making in choosing a publisher. 00:10:43.290 --> 00:10:45.580 The future of open access and 00:10:45.580 --> 00:10:48.110 these are the things we can talk about. 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.520 Some of the questions, how do we pay for it? 00:10:51.520 --> 00:10:53.890 The question of article processing charges, 00:10:53.890 --> 00:10:57.010 funding agencies, and university system subsidies. 00:10:57.010 --> 00:11:00.290 There's also a predatory publishing. 00:11:00.570 --> 00:11:03.715 Some of you may have already seen this. 00:11:03.715 --> 00:11:06.190 If you've had an instance 00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:08.500 where you get an email inquiry from 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:10.690 a publisher asking you to submit 00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:14.920 an article and it looks legit, 00:11:14.920 --> 00:11:18.590 but it also looks not very legit, 00:11:18.900 --> 00:11:21.835 this is an example of one, 00:11:21.835 --> 00:11:25.270 the International Organization of Scientific Research. 00:11:25.270 --> 00:11:28.030 It's a bogus organization. 00:11:28.030 --> 00:11:32.620 They have this IOSR-JEN of engineering. 00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:37.495 This was from an email sent to someone saying, 00:11:37.495 --> 00:11:41.135 please submit your article to our journals. 00:11:41.135 --> 00:11:44.805 Increasingly when you think about publishing, 00:11:44.805 --> 00:11:46.395 you really have to pay attention 00:11:46.395 --> 00:11:47.760 to the journals because there are 00:11:47.760 --> 00:11:51.940 a lot of these are called predatory publishers out there. 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.510 Here's another instance. 00:11:55.510 --> 00:11:57.370 This was a call for paper 00:11:57.370 --> 00:11:59.455 for an international conference. 00:11:59.455 --> 00:12:02.300 I like that it's called insane. 00:12:05.910 --> 00:12:09.880 The other big problem with this is what's called 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:13.480 flipping the system that Elsevier, 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:15.805 which is the largest publisher. 00:12:15.805 --> 00:12:18.085 It's making money off of subscriptions. 00:12:18.085 --> 00:12:21.010 It's also now one of the largest open access publishers 00:12:21.010 --> 00:12:23.110 by doing this hybrid form of publishing. 00:12:23.110 --> 00:12:33.550 [NOISE] 00:12:33.550 --> 00:12:35.965 For the predatory publishers, 00:12:35.965 --> 00:12:38.350 I know that one video that I watched 00:12:38.350 --> 00:12:40.210 had suggestions on what to watch out for, 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:42.340 but most of it was just things 00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:44.365 that you see for watching out for spam. 00:12:44.365 --> 00:12:47.320 Is there any good way 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.950 to go about finding out if it's predatory publishers? 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:54.070 Yes. There is a directory of open access journals, DOAJ. 00:12:54.070 --> 00:13:02.140 There is a thing called Sherpa Romeo, it's odd name. 00:13:02.140 --> 00:13:05.770 There are places to go. 00:13:05.770 --> 00:13:08.350 If you're ever in that situation, 00:13:08.350 --> 00:13:10.525 you can call any of us here or 00:13:10.525 --> 00:13:13.420 email any of us here in the library before you do those. 00:13:13.420 --> 00:13:19.825 The DOAJ is the main place to go. Yeah. 00:13:19.825 --> 00:13:26.920 I have a follow-up question for the predatory publishing. 00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:29.080 Obviously data for sharing 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:30.130 our personal data or selling 00:13:30.130 --> 00:13:31.270 our personal data is big problem. 00:13:31.270 --> 00:13:33.070 Is that what's going on here when 00:13:33.070 --> 00:13:36.490 you submit 20s open access journals in there? 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:40.435 How are these predators getting here? 00:13:40.435 --> 00:13:42.940 Basically, I think it's much simpler than that. 00:13:42.940 --> 00:13:46.960 I think what they're doing is they are 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.230 working on the notion that you 00:13:50.230 --> 00:13:53.230 will pay an APC of $1,000, 00:13:53.230 --> 00:13:57.025 $2,000 and they're going to pocket that money. 00:13:57.025 --> 00:14:00.040 If there's enough researchers published with them, 00:14:00.040 --> 00:14:02.665 they make a tiny sum. 00:14:02.665 --> 00:14:12.130 A better term for 00:14:12.130 --> 00:14:15.235 predatory publishers really would be something like 00:14:15.235 --> 00:14:18.400 dishonest publisher is that they're 00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:20.800 basically selling you something 00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:23.090 that they can't deliver on. 00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:34.810 Finally, I just wanted to mention here, 00:14:34.810 --> 00:14:37.600 there are efforts now around the world 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:44.005 to move us towards this question of flipping the system. 00:14:44.005 --> 00:14:47.800 But the problem with changing over to a new system 00:14:47.800 --> 00:14:52.555 is all this money invested in subscription journals. 00:14:52.555 --> 00:14:54.820 It's very hard to gradually move 00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:58.730 that battleship to the right. 00:14:58.770 --> 00:15:03.070 What's happening in Europe in particular, 00:15:03.070 --> 00:15:06.580 there's been this call for immediate Open Access 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:09.565 to all scientific papers by the year 2020. 00:15:09.565 --> 00:15:12.835 That was by the EU. 00:15:12.835 --> 00:15:15.820 There's this plan now called Plan S, 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:17.930 which you should look up. 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:23.380 It's basically 11 research funders from the UK and 00:15:23.380 --> 00:15:25.330 Europe that collectively are 00:15:25.330 --> 00:15:26.560 responsible for over eight 00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:28.525 billion dollars in grant funding. 00:15:28.525 --> 00:15:31.150 They are saying now they're not going to fund 00:15:31.150 --> 00:15:35.470 any articles that aren't immediately made Open Access. 00:15:35.470 --> 00:15:37.720 That's something we can talk about 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:42.355 because we probably need something radical like that. 00:15:42.355 --> 00:15:46.495 But it can be actually pull it off to the question. 00:15:46.495 --> 00:15:50.950 That's my section here. 00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:52.900 When you just get to talk more 00:15:52.900 --> 00:15:55.550 about broadened the picture of it. 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.020 I'm not sure [inaudible] if 00:16:07.020 --> 00:16:08.760 you could just stay near the podium. 00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:10.425 Stay near the podium. Okay. 00:16:10.425 --> 00:16:12.645 It was working for a while. 00:16:12.645 --> 00:16:14.150 Yeah. I had to turn off 00:16:14.150 --> 00:16:16.415 the room because it was interfering. 00:16:16.415 --> 00:16:24.410 It was an issue with the mic [inaudible] 00:16:24.410 --> 00:16:30.390 This is all right. My name is Anita Walz. 00:16:30.390 --> 00:16:32.280 I'm the Open Education Copyright 00:16:32.280 --> 00:16:34.230 and Scholarly Communication librarian. 00:16:34.230 --> 00:16:37.645 A special hi to those of you who are remote. 00:16:37.645 --> 00:16:40.520 I've been doing this work for 00:16:40.520 --> 00:16:43.665 about five years in the university libraries. 00:16:43.665 --> 00:16:47.280 One of the things that is confusing 00:16:47.280 --> 00:16:49.650 talking about open is that we're 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:52.720 not defining what we mean by open. 00:16:53.780 --> 00:16:56.985 When you think about open access, 00:16:56.985 --> 00:16:58.950 what comes to mind? 00:16:58.950 --> 00:17:01.980 Just shout out any of you. 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:03.940 Free. 00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:08.265 Free, available. Anything else? 00:17:08.265 --> 00:17:10.095 Always free. 00:17:10.095 --> 00:17:11.625 Always free. [LAUGHTER] Great. 00:17:11.625 --> 00:17:12.530 Collaborative. 00:17:12.530 --> 00:17:14.555 Collaborative, we'll get there. 00:17:14.555 --> 00:17:19.040 Good. So lots of different ideas around open, 00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:22.440 but mainly that you can get to it. 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.275 You can see it, you can use it. 00:17:25.275 --> 00:17:28.020 The traditional definition, 00:17:28.020 --> 00:17:31.590 and this is from a convention in Berlin, 00:17:31.590 --> 00:17:37.200 is that open means that you can adapt it, 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:38.730 change it, modify it. 00:17:38.730 --> 00:17:41.145 That's not typically how we think of it. 00:17:41.145 --> 00:17:42.690 The way we typically think of it 00:17:42.690 --> 00:17:45.885 is it's free, we can get to it. 00:17:45.885 --> 00:17:49.380 My question, and we'll talk about 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.905 this other term that starts with the word open, 00:17:52.905 --> 00:17:57.270 is is open access the same thing, 00:17:57.270 --> 00:17:59.760 just a different name for what we 00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:02.400 call open educational resources. 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.680 Has anyone heard the term OER? 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:12.900 Great. The question is 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:14.730 these teaching and learning resources 00:18:14.730 --> 00:18:15.945 that are called OER, 00:18:15.945 --> 00:18:17.580 are they the same thing? 00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:21.930 Well, to the degree that they are under a license 00:18:21.930 --> 00:18:23.790 that allows them to be changed and 00:18:23.790 --> 00:18:26.430 modified, they're the same thing. 00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:30.060 We don't really think of journal articles that way. 00:18:30.060 --> 00:18:33.720 I'm going to talk a bit about 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.930 this thing that we call open educational resources. 00:18:38.540 --> 00:18:47.055 I'd like to give you a really quick overview 00:18:47.055 --> 00:18:49.905 of Creative Commons licenses. 00:18:49.905 --> 00:18:53.625 Raise your hand if those look familiar. 00:18:53.625 --> 00:18:55.470 Some of you have seen them before, 00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.000 those of you online. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.130 Excellent. Thank you. 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:01.320 I think it's really great to include people 00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:03.480 online because you probably feel far away, 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.295 so thank you for participating. 00:19:05.295 --> 00:19:09.580 There are a number of Creative Commons licenses. 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:16.050 The middle cluster, and this does not work on the screen. 00:19:16.050 --> 00:19:17.820 The middle cluster of 00:19:17.820 --> 00:19:21.615 Creative Commons licenses essentially say, 00:19:21.615 --> 00:19:23.745 you can copy me, 00:19:23.745 --> 00:19:24.990 you can change me, 00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:26.295 you can revise me, 00:19:26.295 --> 00:19:28.065 you can adapt me. 00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:32.490 The bottom collection, the bottom two say, 00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:34.770 no, you can't make any changes, 00:19:34.770 --> 00:19:37.155 there are no derivatives allowed. 00:19:37.155 --> 00:19:38.880 This locks things down. 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:40.560 You can copy and share if something 00:19:40.560 --> 00:19:42.330 has this license on it, 00:19:42.330 --> 00:19:43.980 but you can't make changes. 00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:47.220 The bottom category is really everything that's 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:50.595 in copyright that doesn't have an open license. 00:19:50.595 --> 00:19:54.450 We have the continuum from very open things maybe 00:19:54.450 --> 00:19:58.305 that don't enjoy any copyright because they're too old, 00:19:58.305 --> 00:20:00.825 or they were made by a US government employee, 00:20:00.825 --> 00:20:05.080 to things that enjoy all kinds of copyright. 00:20:06.290 --> 00:20:10.320 We'll get these slides to you a little bit later on. 00:20:10.320 --> 00:20:12.315 There's also in the back of the room. 00:20:12.315 --> 00:20:14.550 For those of you online we'll make sure you get this too. 00:20:14.550 --> 00:20:16.230 There's a brochure that 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:18.825 explains the different Creative Commons licenses, 00:20:18.825 --> 00:20:20.925 but they are what they do. 00:20:20.925 --> 00:20:24.340 Why might it be important for you 00:20:24.340 --> 00:20:28.760 as a future and probably current educator, 00:20:28.760 --> 00:20:33.800 as a professor, to adapt materials. 00:20:33.800 --> 00:20:37.040 What might you want to do if you could adapt 00:20:37.040 --> 00:20:39.960 materials for your class? Yes. 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:45.810 [inaudible] Being somewhat lazy 00:20:45.810 --> 00:20:47.940 if I find some very good materials online, 00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:52.830 I don't want to redesign 00:20:52.830 --> 00:20:55.200 the wheel and rebuild something that was already 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.515 done very well that I could ideally just use. 00:20:58.515 --> 00:21:00.660 You could reuse something that 00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:02.460 already exists. You have the mic. 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:04.110 I was going to say pretty much the same thing but 00:21:04.110 --> 00:21:05.730 not admit to being lazy and just say it 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:08.460 would save us time [LAUGHTER] 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.710 to not reinvent the wheel. I agree. 00:21:10.710 --> 00:21:17.260 Anybody else? Anybody from online? No, that's okay. 00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:27.855 There are ways that you could leverage these licenses. 00:21:27.855 --> 00:21:30.600 Typically the licenses that we say are 00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:33.330 open have five R's permission. 00:21:33.330 --> 00:21:35.790 They allow you to retain something, 00:21:35.790 --> 00:21:38.295 you can keep it, you can revise it, 00:21:38.295 --> 00:21:41.190 you can reuse it, 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.570 you can remix it, 00:21:42.570 --> 00:21:44.940 you can redistribute it, you can share it. 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:49.470 These map to the things that you cannot do in copyright. 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:51.510 When you put an open license on 00:21:51.510 --> 00:21:53.715 your work, any of your work, 00:21:53.715 --> 00:21:56.355 because even the notes that you're writing right now, 00:21:56.355 --> 00:21:59.040 you're creating a copyrighted work. Did you know that? 00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:03.180 [LAUGHTER] You're creating a copyrighted work 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:05.190 right now, which is fine. 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:09.300 [LAUGHTER] But if you don't put an open license on it, 00:22:09.300 --> 00:22:12.240 nobody else knows that they can use it. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.730 If you want people to use your work, 00:22:14.730 --> 00:22:18.405 put an open license on it. Yes, ma'am. 00:22:18.405 --> 00:22:20.820 Any of those, 00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:24.135 do you need to give credit to where you got it. 00:22:24.135 --> 00:22:25.830 Absolutely. 00:22:25.830 --> 00:22:27.720 Thought I would mention that. 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:29.640 [LAUGHTER] 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.665 This is for your original work. 00:22:31.665 --> 00:22:34.050 Being very simple, 00:22:34.050 --> 00:22:37.635 most of us like to take pictures with our phones. 00:22:37.635 --> 00:22:40.710 We take pictures of all kinds of things. 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:43.770 If you wanted to put your pictures on Flickr 00:22:43.770 --> 00:22:46.620 or on Wikimedia Commons, 00:22:46.620 --> 00:22:48.435 or you want to put them 00:22:48.435 --> 00:22:51.300 somewhere and you want people to be able to 00:22:51.300 --> 00:22:53.205 use them because you think they're great 00:22:53.205 --> 00:22:56.130 and you're not planning to do anything with them anyway, 00:22:56.130 --> 00:22:58.650 so you want people to use them. 00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:02.565 You could put a Creative Commons license on your work. 00:23:02.565 --> 00:23:06.270 If you are using someone else's work, 00:23:06.270 --> 00:23:09.900 you will want to look at the link at 00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:13.770 the very bottom that says how to provide credit, 00:23:13.770 --> 00:23:16.020 how to provide attribution. 00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:17.730 Very important. 00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:20.970 The Creative Commons logos 00:23:20.970 --> 00:23:23.970 are actually a symbol of a license. 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:25.950 You're entering into an agreement about 00:23:25.950 --> 00:23:28.380 how you will use something, 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:30.330 how you won't use it. 00:23:30.330 --> 00:23:32.685 Part of that agreement is to say, 00:23:32.685 --> 00:23:34.800 I will give credit if I use 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:39.225 somebody else's work that has this license on it already. 00:23:39.225 --> 00:23:42.600 Two sides, you could be a contributor, 00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:45.370 you could be a user. 00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:49.840 Hopefully you'll become both. 00:23:52.230 --> 00:23:56.980 How is this in use at Virginia Tech? 00:23:56.980 --> 00:23:59.920 This is really fun. 00:24:00.470 --> 00:24:11.320 In 2014 one of the professors here came to me and said, 00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:13.660 my book is $200. 00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:15.490 It's coming out in a new edition 00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:16.630 of the book for my class, 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:20.335 not my book, but the book from my class is $200. 00:24:20.335 --> 00:24:23.830 Thank you. I need a lot of help. Thank you. 00:24:23.830 --> 00:24:28.465 [LAUGHTER] The book for my classes, $200. 00:24:28.465 --> 00:24:30.505 I don't want to do that to students. 00:24:30.505 --> 00:24:33.040 It's too expensive, what can I do? 00:24:33.040 --> 00:24:35.755 I said, well, let's, 00:24:35.755 --> 00:24:38.110 would you be open to remixing a book? 00:24:38.110 --> 00:24:40.060 I said yes. 00:24:40.060 --> 00:24:44.545 We entered into this experiment of creating 00:24:44.545 --> 00:24:46.900 this open textbook from a book that 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:49.855 was already had an open license on it. 00:24:49.855 --> 00:24:53.275 We released it to the world and it's been downloaded 00:24:53.275 --> 00:24:57.055 over 185,000 times around the world. 00:24:57.055 --> 00:25:00.070 This is the first version, 00:25:00.070 --> 00:25:05.740 and the second version came out in August. 00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:07.630 We decided to make some changes, 00:25:07.630 --> 00:25:09.160 it's a little smaller. 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.940 It's a lot cheaper if you buy the paper copy. 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:16.045 It has some updated features like quizzes 00:25:16.045 --> 00:25:19.970 and videos linked from it. 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.110 I'll ask you to send this over here. 00:25:23.110 --> 00:25:26.900 I can show you panelists later if you don't want. 00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:30.175 That's one example, yes. 00:25:30.175 --> 00:25:34.315 What is the price range for an open printed textbook? 00:25:34.315 --> 00:25:39.415 The black and white version of the first one was $15. 00:25:39.415 --> 00:25:42.640 That's a good price for black and white. 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:44.545 Color is really nice. 00:25:44.545 --> 00:25:46.540 Sometimes colors necessary. 00:25:46.540 --> 00:25:47.980 If I wanted to do that for one of 00:25:47.980 --> 00:25:49.060 my classes that I was going to teach 00:25:49.060 --> 00:25:50.365 the say next semester, 00:25:50.365 --> 00:25:51.940 would I be able to go to 00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:54.380 somebody in the library to help me with that. 00:25:54.750 --> 00:25:57.670 This first book took 14 months. 00:25:57.670 --> 00:26:01.900 [inaudible] Next semester [LAUGHTER]. 00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:03.100 This is our second book, 00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:04.300 and it took nine months, 00:26:04.300 --> 00:26:07.435 which was really fast, but let's talk. 00:26:07.435 --> 00:26:08.260 Possible. 00:26:08.260 --> 00:26:11.650 We also would want to make sure that you are also 00:26:11.650 --> 00:26:13.030 getting all the rest of 00:26:13.030 --> 00:26:15.745 your work done because this is a lot. 00:26:15.745 --> 00:26:18.370 But let's talk because I think those are 00:26:18.370 --> 00:26:22.010 good ideas to explore. 00:26:22.530 --> 00:26:25.090 The question was, if I wanted to do 00:26:25.090 --> 00:26:26.665 this in my class next semester, 00:26:26.665 --> 00:26:27.820 could I, who would I talk to 00:26:27.820 --> 00:26:30.235 you? You have a question too. 00:26:30.235 --> 00:26:32.710 What does remixing exactly mean? 00:26:32.710 --> 00:26:34.480 What is remixing mean? 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:36.760 Technically, it means that 00:26:36.760 --> 00:26:39.745 you are mixing more than one thing. 00:26:39.745 --> 00:26:44.320 You have maybe one openly licensed work 00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:45.625 and you're adding, 00:26:45.625 --> 00:26:48.025 you're combining it with something else. 00:26:48.025 --> 00:26:53.500 For this book, we took the original source material. 00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:57.340 We probably got rid of about 50% of it. 00:26:57.340 --> 00:27:00.100 Then we took a part of 00:27:00.100 --> 00:27:02.650 another book and we made a new chapter out of it, 00:27:02.650 --> 00:27:06.040 and then we took other material from different places. 00:27:06.040 --> 00:27:11.935 It's really a way of revising. Does that help? 00:27:11.935 --> 00:27:15.205 I got my question is, 00:27:15.205 --> 00:27:17.485 so let's say you have four different books. 00:27:17.485 --> 00:27:19.210 I've had classes where there's four different books, 00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:21.025 but they only take selected chapters. 00:27:21.025 --> 00:27:24.010 What are we mixing also entail taking the chapters, 00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:26.440 relevant chapters from these different books, 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:28.285 I'm just making a new book. 00:27:28.285 --> 00:27:30.850 If your book had an open license. 00:27:30.850 --> 00:27:31.705 All four of them. 00:27:31.705 --> 00:27:34.570 If all four had open licenses, 00:27:34.570 --> 00:27:39.190 you could do that and they're in copyright. 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:41.680 Assuming that's the case, then 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:46.910 what would the author of the book, this new book B. 00:27:47.070 --> 00:27:50.860 You could have it be a compilation by 00:27:50.860 --> 00:27:56.050 this person with contributions from person 1,2,3,4. 00:27:56.050 --> 00:28:01.525 You would want to attribute all of your contributors, 00:28:01.525 --> 00:28:04.150 there's a lot more detail to this. 00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:06.640 I would be very happy to talk with any of you 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.835 after if you want to talk more details, 00:28:09.835 --> 00:28:14.180 but really good questions. Yes. 00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:20.535 Can this also be applied to scientific manuscripts? 00:28:20.535 --> 00:28:22.755 Like if I was publishing the research I did, 00:28:22.755 --> 00:28:25.410 what I apply a Creative Commons license 00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:27.705 or is this specifically for textbooks? 00:28:27.705 --> 00:28:31.920 Some publishers, especially open publishers like clause, 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:33.675 what is your area of your. 00:28:33.675 --> 00:28:36.250 Food science and nutrition. 00:28:36.750 --> 00:28:40.300 I'm not as familiar with your journals, 00:28:40.300 --> 00:28:43.645 but some publishers will say 00:28:43.645 --> 00:28:48.490 Open Access is a creative commons license of this type. 00:28:48.490 --> 00:28:51.820 Something I've seen professors do where 00:28:51.820 --> 00:28:54.790 when they have had figures or images, 00:28:54.790 --> 00:28:56.260 maybe they took a photograph of 00:28:56.260 --> 00:28:58.300 something novel and they said, 00:28:58.300 --> 00:29:01.645 I don't want to sign away my rights to this. 00:29:01.645 --> 00:29:04.495 They might put it in Wikimedia Commons, 00:29:04.495 --> 00:29:06.775 and then they cite themselves 00:29:06.775 --> 00:29:10.300 this image from this location. 00:29:10.300 --> 00:29:12.700 That way they can use the image later, 00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:13.720 they don't have to sign away 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:15.160 all their rights because they 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.950 already licensed it openly. 00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:24.580 In an ideal world, 00:29:24.580 --> 00:29:25.870 yes, you would get to decide, 00:29:25.870 --> 00:29:27.940 but often it's the publisher that says, 00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:28.990 no, this is how it is. 00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:32.095 We will take all of your rights. Thank you very much. 00:29:32.095 --> 00:29:33.460 You can negotiate. 00:29:33.460 --> 00:29:35.140 I would encourage you to do that. 00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:37.945 There's some tools to do that also. 00:29:37.945 --> 00:29:40.510 You can put a Creative Commons license on 00:29:40.510 --> 00:29:43.405 anything you want and put it online. 00:29:43.405 --> 00:29:45.340 Peter says you can put 00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:46.720 a Creative Commons license on 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.075 anything you want and put it up online. 00:29:49.075 --> 00:29:52.060 Is there a place besides that? 00:29:52.060 --> 00:29:55.855 Is there a repository for all Creative Commons? 00:29:55.855 --> 00:29:58.840 No, ma'am. [LAUGHTER] There 00:29:58.840 --> 00:30:02.110 are repositories for things like open textbooks. 00:30:02.110 --> 00:30:05.125 There are popular places 00:30:05.125 --> 00:30:06.700 and a lot of these places are 00:30:06.700 --> 00:30:08.875 listed on the back of this brochure. 00:30:08.875 --> 00:30:13.630 The search.creativecommons.org site has many 00:30:13.630 --> 00:30:16.210 of the places where you can 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.615 find music, media, videos, images. 00:30:19.615 --> 00:30:22.975 There's an opened the link for the Open Textbook Library. 00:30:22.975 --> 00:30:25.960 There are some scientific simulations 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:27.040 that are openly licensed, 00:30:27.040 --> 00:30:29.020 that are very engaging and 00:30:29.020 --> 00:30:31.405 really interesting if you're in a stem field, 00:30:31.405 --> 00:30:35.000 those are actually fun to play with. 00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:39.110 Yes, question in the back. 00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:43.720 Wave you just wanted to make like 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:45.100 I think you're going to really feel like there 00:30:45.100 --> 00:30:48.535 were revise and redistribute version. 00:30:48.535 --> 00:30:50.170 We've used when they can a bridged version to 00:30:50.170 --> 00:30:51.925 a textbook and then, 00:30:51.925 --> 00:30:53.440 or make it like an online like 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.150 an e-book or something like that. 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:57.955 Not just remixing it. 00:30:57.955 --> 00:31:00.535 It depends on what you start with. 00:31:00.535 --> 00:31:03.535 The Common licenses would work with that. 00:31:03.535 --> 00:31:05.770 If something already has 00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:09.320 a license that allows you to do that, you can. 00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:13.765 That's the very exciting part of this, 00:31:13.765 --> 00:31:16.060 is maybe you want to 00:31:16.060 --> 00:31:18.595 translate something into a different language. 00:31:18.595 --> 00:31:20.680 Maybe you want to make it more 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.500 relevant to students in a particular context. 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:27.340 Maybe the people in the pictures need to change or 00:31:27.340 --> 00:31:33.235 the questions at the end of the chapter or the examples. 00:31:33.235 --> 00:31:34.840 Those are all things that 00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:36.880 help students as they're learning, 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.180 to see themselves in the learning material, 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:42.160 to contextualize, to better 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:45.565 understand what you're teaching them. 00:31:45.565 --> 00:31:48.220 That said, there's some labor intensity 00:31:48.220 --> 00:31:49.930 with some of this. 00:31:49.930 --> 00:31:53.890 But there are some platforms that we make available, 00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:55.795 like press books that 00:31:55.795 --> 00:31:59.600 are very helpful for doing this thing. 00:31:59.850 --> 00:32:03.685 An example of this at, 00:32:03.685 --> 00:32:06.940 I believe this is at Brigham Young University, students, 00:32:06.940 --> 00:32:08.590 graduate students took a book 00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:10.990 on project management and they 00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:12.310 customized it into 00:32:12.310 --> 00:32:15.640 project management for instructional designers. 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:20.170 This was a multi semester learning experience. 00:32:20.170 --> 00:32:24.685 This was a very deep way of engaging a text, 00:32:24.685 --> 00:32:28.510 of showing fluency and understanding of 00:32:28.510 --> 00:32:30.340 the material and produce 00:32:30.340 --> 00:32:32.660 something that was valuable for the world. 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.340 This is something that's freely available 00:32:35.340 --> 00:32:41.740 online through various links. 00:32:41.740 --> 00:32:43.000 If you put the title in Google, 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:44.590 you would get there. 00:32:44.590 --> 00:32:46.540 Here's another example for 00:32:46.540 --> 00:32:48.385 those of you in the humanities. 00:32:48.385 --> 00:32:52.000 Many of the humanities texts are public domain, 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:53.890 especially the older ones. 00:32:53.890 --> 00:32:56.980 Anything created, published in the US prior to 00:32:56.980 --> 00:33:02.530 1923 and in January prior to now to 1924, 00:33:02.530 --> 00:33:05.905 which is really exciting. Sorry. 00:33:05.905 --> 00:33:06.535 34. 00:33:06.535 --> 00:33:08.630 34 00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:13.540 Let's talk about this later 00:33:13.540 --> 00:33:17.120 [LAUGHTER] because that's new to me. 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:21.490 Things that are in the public domain 00:33:21.490 --> 00:33:26.380 where copyright has expired are fair game. 00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:29.830 This professor said, I'm assigning a Norton Anthology, 00:33:29.830 --> 00:33:32.740 we don't use the whole book. 00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:34.960 These are readings that I want to include. 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.000 So she and her students created 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:40.330 an anthology of this type of literature. 00:33:40.330 --> 00:33:42.160 Obviously in all these things, 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:44.660 copyright is a question. 00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:48.340 Now, let's talk 00:33:48.340 --> 00:33:51.145 more details if the user things you want to do. 00:33:51.145 --> 00:33:56.170 Going beyond OER, sometimes we 00:33:56.170 --> 00:33:58.465 give students assignments that 00:33:58.465 --> 00:34:01.370 are just for the professor. 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:08.275 Oftentimes, we'll learn things from those as students. 00:34:08.275 --> 00:34:11.740 Definitely is a place for not sharing 00:34:11.740 --> 00:34:14.875 our content if we're not ready to share it. 00:34:14.875 --> 00:34:18.685 But there are times that as instructors, 00:34:18.685 --> 00:34:20.590 we can assign our students to do 00:34:20.590 --> 00:34:23.620 something that is public and get comments, 00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:25.195 public comments on it, 00:34:25.195 --> 00:34:27.850 also create things that are of public value. 00:34:27.850 --> 00:34:29.125 So just want to 00:34:29.125 --> 00:34:31.480 briefly introduce the idea of open pedagogy. 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:33.400 I believe that you talk about this more in 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.220 your course and you may run into 00:34:36.220 --> 00:34:42.235 this in various classes as a graduate student here. 00:34:42.235 --> 00:34:48.295 Open pedagogy is a way to more deeply engage students, 00:34:48.295 --> 00:34:52.165 leverages student agency, student interest, 00:34:52.165 --> 00:34:57.650 and it engages students in the real-world. 00:34:57.810 --> 00:35:01.240 Open education is this movement, 00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:05.890 it's a philosophy and it's a set of 00:35:05.890 --> 00:35:10.270 expanding practices of different kinds of 00:35:10.270 --> 00:35:14.605 practices that are based on a collection of values. 00:35:14.605 --> 00:35:16.780 I think what we want to do now 00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:19.960 is open it up for more questions. 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.080 But thank you very much for your time. 00:35:23.080 --> 00:35:26.840 Please feel free to talk with any of us afterwards. 00:35:27.210 --> 00:35:32.270 Actually, I was just going to ask Darren. 00:35:32.670 --> 00:35:34.990 I know we're not to the Q&A, 00:35:34.990 --> 00:35:38.200 but what you're doing the project with VD grade, 00:35:38.200 --> 00:35:41.470 I think it's really important for you to share 00:35:41.470 --> 00:35:45.835 with the class and with the colleagues in the room. 00:35:45.835 --> 00:35:49.075 Yeah. So I'm trying to put together 00:35:49.075 --> 00:35:52.760 an open repository for instructional material. 00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:55.660 My motivation for this is 00:35:55.660 --> 00:35:58.090 less on the content side and the book side, 00:35:58.090 --> 00:35:59.410 but more just like activities 00:35:59.410 --> 00:36:00.700 that we do in the classroom. 00:36:00.700 --> 00:36:03.730 Like the in-class stuff that we 00:36:03.730 --> 00:36:07.285 spend a lot of time putting that stuff together 00:36:07.285 --> 00:36:10.420 and then don't necessarily have a place to share it with 00:36:10.420 --> 00:36:12.790 others or even just put it so 00:36:12.790 --> 00:36:14.140 that if we want to use it in 00:36:14.140 --> 00:36:15.520 another class later we can use it. 00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:17.995 So that's where I'm coming from that. 00:36:17.995 --> 00:36:20.920 I don't know want to spend a lot of time 00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:22.450 talking about the details now because I think 00:36:22.450 --> 00:36:24.340 some of that will come up in the Q&A. 00:36:24.340 --> 00:36:26.110 But I'm primarily interested in 00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:28.510 the remixing and reuse part of that equation 00:36:28.510 --> 00:36:31.555 because I think technologically and 00:36:31.555 --> 00:36:33.130 what we have out there already are 00:36:33.130 --> 00:36:35.095 a lot of repositories of content, 00:36:35.095 --> 00:36:36.640 but then it's a matter of how do we 00:36:36.640 --> 00:36:39.610 actually put that into practice in the classroom. 00:36:39.610 --> 00:36:42.430 So examples would be a syllabi, 00:36:42.430 --> 00:36:46.555 some assignment, is that right? 00:36:46.555 --> 00:36:49.480 Yes. Syllabi, assignments, 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:55.330 in-class activities with a focus on facilitator guide. 00:36:55.330 --> 00:36:57.550 So in particular, if you want to 00:36:57.550 --> 00:36:59.830 use a different type of activity in the classroom, 00:36:59.830 --> 00:37:00.940 if you're used to doing lecture 00:37:00.940 --> 00:37:02.020 style and you want to get into 00:37:02.020 --> 00:37:05.890 some more engaging styles of pedagogy, 00:37:05.890 --> 00:37:07.330 but maybe you don't have 00:37:07.330 --> 00:37:09.460 sufficient support in your department to do that, 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:15.910 having some resources support online to provide that, 00:37:15.910 --> 00:37:18.820 including commentary of other folks 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:20.590 who might have used similar activities and 00:37:20.590 --> 00:37:22.630 said this is the context I use this 00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:25.150 in and this is what went well, 00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:26.980 this is what didn't go well, 00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:28.315 this is how I would change it. 00:37:28.315 --> 00:37:31.600 Then see hopefully a history of that. 00:37:31.600 --> 00:37:33.430 So as people reuse 00:37:33.430 --> 00:37:37.150 similar assignments or reuse assignments or activities, 00:37:37.150 --> 00:37:40.270 you get this chronology of how it was used, 00:37:40.270 --> 00:37:42.250 the different contexts it was used and then what had 00:37:42.250 --> 00:37:45.620 to change each context. 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.220 Thank you. 00:37:48.220 --> 00:37:52.630 We're going to open it up now for discussion. 00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:55.690 One of the things to 00:37:55.690 --> 00:37:57.415 get things started, I was going to ask, 00:37:57.415 --> 00:38:00.570 in terms of open access for those of you who are 00:38:00.570 --> 00:38:04.665 familiar with it or have had any experience with it, 00:38:04.665 --> 00:38:09.400 what's your sense of what the downsides of it or 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:13.960 what do people say is a problem with open access? 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:15.760 Has that come up, 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:17.440 where somebody will say, 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:19.840 well, you know, I don't want 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:24.320 to publish open access because of X. 00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:28.240 I believe the problem of open access is quality 00:38:28.240 --> 00:38:31.120 to like low-quality papers are usually open access. 00:38:31.120 --> 00:38:32.830 If you look for high-quality papers, 00:38:32.830 --> 00:38:34.570 most of them are like closed access, 00:38:34.570 --> 00:38:36.565 so you have to pay to get them. 00:38:36.565 --> 00:38:41.305 Okay. So that was the question, basically about quality. 00:38:41.305 --> 00:38:43.840 That open access does have 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:51.415 this unjustified connection with 00:38:51.415 --> 00:38:54.880 low quality because there are those predatory journals 00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.360 out there and they give 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:02.380 open-access publishing a bad name because it's possible 00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:04.330 for anybody to really start 00:39:04.330 --> 00:39:07.180 a publishing company and charge APCs. 00:39:07.180 --> 00:39:08.890 That's why you have to be 00:39:08.890 --> 00:39:10.675 very careful what you choose from. 00:39:10.675 --> 00:39:15.685 But really open access all it is is a business model. 00:39:15.685 --> 00:39:18.280 Everything else should be the same. 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.100 Peer-review, all of it. 00:39:21.100 --> 00:39:23.380 If a reputable publisher 00:39:23.380 --> 00:39:26.530 publishes a book open access or an article open access, 00:39:26.530 --> 00:39:28.150 they should apply the same standards 00:39:28.150 --> 00:39:28.750 that they would apply 00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:31.585 to any other work. 00:39:31.585 --> 00:39:36.790 Peter. So do the open access journals 00:39:36.790 --> 00:39:39.970 hold to the same standards? 00:39:39.970 --> 00:39:41.515 Do they do a peer review? 00:39:41.515 --> 00:39:43.540 Who are the reviewers? 00:39:43.540 --> 00:39:45.310 Again, just describe a little 00:39:45.310 --> 00:39:47.170 bit more about that process. 00:39:47.170 --> 00:39:52.060 Sure. So if it's a hybrid journal, for instance, 00:39:52.060 --> 00:39:54.595 so it's a journal that is otherwise 00:39:54.595 --> 00:39:56.785 a toll access journal 00:39:56.785 --> 00:39:58.420 and you want to publish it up open access, 00:39:58.420 --> 00:40:00.100 it goes through the same review process 00:40:00.100 --> 00:40:01.810 that every other article does. 00:40:01.810 --> 00:40:06.565 But I mentioned plus one which is all 00:40:06.565 --> 00:40:09.340 open and online and 00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:11.920 they go through the same rigorous practice. 00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:14.980 It's one of the most respected journals. 00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:17.920 I mean, it covers multiple fields, 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.990 but it is a very respected journal 00:40:19.990 --> 00:40:22.240 and has a very high impact factor. 00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:24.880 So there's no reason why 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:26.845 open access journals can't be 00:40:26.845 --> 00:40:29.230 of the highest quality and they should be. 00:40:29.230 --> 00:40:30.835 Who reviews? 00:40:30.835 --> 00:40:34.300 Would be scholars in the field. 00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:38.230 So if you're in Electrical Engineering, 00:40:38.230 --> 00:40:42.490 it'll be read by other electrical engineers who will 00:40:42.490 --> 00:40:45.250 then evaluate it and 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:49.100 you'll get reports from those readers. 00:40:49.470 --> 00:40:55.285 Usually, working with these conferences, 00:40:55.285 --> 00:40:58.780 there's like an infrastructure cost and operation cost. 00:40:58.780 --> 00:41:01.375 Who's covering these costs if it's open access? 00:41:01.375 --> 00:41:04.090 So the question is who's covering the cost of 00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:05.860 actually publishing these books and that's where 00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:08.690 the APCs come in. 00:41:08.970 --> 00:41:12.865 The money is earned upfront 00:41:12.865 --> 00:41:16.720 and there's an argument to be made for the fact 00:41:16.720 --> 00:41:20.230 that because open access journals don't have all of 00:41:20.230 --> 00:41:24.340 the costs associated with subscriptions, 00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:26.320 you don't have to have the accounting departments, 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.970 you don't have to do the policing of access, 00:41:30.970 --> 00:41:33.145 they're spending less money 00:41:33.145 --> 00:41:35.830 on the actual production of it. 00:41:35.830 --> 00:41:38.260 So that money is money that 00:41:38.260 --> 00:41:40.975 doesn't have to be spent for an open access journal. 00:41:40.975 --> 00:41:46.465 So in time, open access journals should be less expensive 00:41:46.465 --> 00:41:53.600 than total access journals. Any question? 00:41:54.690 --> 00:41:56.770 Going back to the question with 00:41:56.770 --> 00:41:58.405 the publishing of the textbook, 00:41:58.405 --> 00:42:02.440 what incentives exists or available to 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:07.105 publishers dog breed to do of Max's books 00:42:07.105 --> 00:42:08.635 when they know that it can be 00:42:08.635 --> 00:42:11.590 easily remodeled or reworked 00:42:11.590 --> 00:42:16.405 or redone and then they won't get the sales from it. 00:42:16.405 --> 00:42:25.765 Sure. I love that question because that question asks, 00:42:25.765 --> 00:42:30.685 why do we typically publish textbooks? 00:42:30.685 --> 00:42:32.440 Most people don't publish 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:34.390 textbooks because they want to make money. 00:42:34.390 --> 00:42:37.885 Most people don't make a lot of money, some people do. 00:42:37.885 --> 00:42:40.360 But most people write textbooks 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.520 because there isn't a book that meets 00:42:42.520 --> 00:42:45.070 their needs and they have something novel 00:42:45.070 --> 00:42:48.055 to say and no one else is saying it. 00:42:48.055 --> 00:42:50.620 They take it upon themselves to 00:42:50.620 --> 00:42:54.220 create a work that is unique and that's valuable. 00:42:54.220 --> 00:42:58.360 I would say incentives that are 00:42:58.360 --> 00:42:59.875 available at this point 00:42:59.875 --> 00:43:03.205 are a lot of help and a lot of handholding, 00:43:03.205 --> 00:43:04.765 which you don't get from 00:43:04.765 --> 00:43:07.760 your publishing house every time. 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.750 Being first, there are disciplines where 00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:17.085 there are no open textbooks where people ask sometimes, 00:43:17.085 --> 00:43:20.410 what do you have for fluid mechanics that's good? 00:43:20.410 --> 00:43:24.950 Well, nothing. Not a textbook anyway. 00:43:25.020 --> 00:43:27.670 Being first getting your name out 00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:30.205 there I think is prestigious. 00:43:30.205 --> 00:43:32.230 You could make part of 00:43:32.230 --> 00:43:34.390 an argument for tenure and promotion. 00:43:34.390 --> 00:43:36.250 Some institutions are looking 00:43:36.250 --> 00:43:38.680 very carefully at tenure and promotion as 00:43:38.680 --> 00:43:44.260 an incentive to write books. It's a mix. 00:43:44.260 --> 00:43:46.855 I think most people who are writing 00:43:46.855 --> 00:43:50.740 an open textbook also believe that the impact 00:43:50.740 --> 00:43:53.800 that they will have is very 00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.740 valuable beyond the amount 00:43:56.740 --> 00:43:58.900 of money that they might have made, 00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:02.240 which might not have been very much. 00:44:02.430 --> 00:44:07.270 There's a calculus that I think people go through to say, 00:44:07.270 --> 00:44:08.935 ''I'm going to write this, 00:44:08.935 --> 00:44:10.120 I'm going to put it out there. 00:44:10.120 --> 00:44:16.065 I want people to read and let it be what it is.'' 00:44:16.065 --> 00:44:18.910 But great question. 00:44:18.930 --> 00:44:22.705 Just going back to the reviewers, 00:44:22.705 --> 00:44:25.780 I was looking at a journal in my field in there, 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:27.640 it was open access, and they did 00:44:27.640 --> 00:44:30.100 an open discussion forum for their reviewers. 00:44:30.100 --> 00:44:33.040 Now it doesn't seem to me that that's the best. 00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:34.660 There are always going to get the best audience 00:44:34.660 --> 00:44:35.950 for viewing that paper. 00:44:35.950 --> 00:44:38.965 Is that more common in terms of reviewing for? 00:44:38.965 --> 00:44:41.140 I would say that there's 00:44:41.140 --> 00:44:44.755 more experimentation going on now with open peer review. 00:44:44.755 --> 00:44:46.060 That's another of the opens 00:44:46.060 --> 00:44:47.515 that we could have put up there. 00:44:47.515 --> 00:44:49.810 Open peer review is basically saying we put 00:44:49.810 --> 00:44:51.970 it up online and let people 00:44:51.970 --> 00:44:53.740 comment on it or you do it 00:44:53.740 --> 00:44:56.050 publicly where you assign readers 00:44:56.050 --> 00:44:58.120 to it and they comment on 00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:00.430 the article or the book publicly. 00:45:00.430 --> 00:45:02.800 There've been some books published that 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.140 were published first in 00:45:05.140 --> 00:45:09.070 a preliminary form and then people commented on 00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.380 it and those comments were 00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:14.470 incorporated into the official published version. 00:45:14.470 --> 00:45:16.810 There's more and more experimentation going 00:45:16.810 --> 00:45:19.135 on with the idea of open peer review. 00:45:19.135 --> 00:45:20.800 I guess the process wasn't very clear, 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.990 but is it possible that they actually did ask 00:45:22.990 --> 00:45:24.070 specific people in the field to 00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:25.585 come to this open discussion? 00:45:25.585 --> 00:45:27.145 It's possible, yes. 00:45:27.145 --> 00:45:29.620 Because that would make you feel a little better about 00:45:29.620 --> 00:45:32.960 their [LAUGHTER] process of reviewing. 00:45:34.710 --> 00:45:37.735 I was wondering how 00:45:37.735 --> 00:45:42.130 publishing companies react to the open access movements. 00:45:42.130 --> 00:45:47.410 Are they try to shift 00:45:47.410 --> 00:45:50.740 towards open assess culture or are they just 00:45:50.740 --> 00:45:54.580 try to defending their business? 00:45:54.580 --> 00:45:59.455 Well, so the example I gave of Elsevier, 00:45:59.455 --> 00:46:04.030 they are trying to basically co-opt 00:46:04.030 --> 00:46:08.920 open access publishing by offering hybrid journals. 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:11.740 There's a lot of argumentation out there as to 00:46:11.740 --> 00:46:14.740 whether if you go the hybrid route, 00:46:14.740 --> 00:46:17.155 if that's ever going to really change the system. 00:46:17.155 --> 00:46:19.150 If that money is still going 00:46:19.150 --> 00:46:21.400 to the big commercial publishers, 00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.000 are we ever going to really change the system. 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.155 Some publishers, I would say, 00:46:28.155 --> 00:46:30.480 are afraid of open access and so they're 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.565 trying to co-opt it for themselves. 00:46:33.565 --> 00:46:36.340 There are other instances of new publishers coming up 00:46:36.340 --> 00:46:38.905 that are just focusing on open access. 00:46:38.905 --> 00:46:43.190 There's a wide range of responses. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:52.135 As a younger graduate student, 00:46:52.135 --> 00:46:53.890 to be going into the industry, 00:46:53.890 --> 00:46:56.080 what can I do to promote open access and 00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:59.335 this whole turning the industry? 00:46:59.335 --> 00:47:02.290 Well, that's something I'd like to turn it 00:47:02.290 --> 00:47:05.065 over to the panel here. 00:47:05.065 --> 00:47:07.015 Because there's a big question 00:47:07.015 --> 00:47:11.245 about recognition for open access. 00:47:11.245 --> 00:47:13.165 I'm curious, Marie, 00:47:13.165 --> 00:47:15.655 you're starting an open access journal, 00:47:15.655 --> 00:47:22.600 so should people who publish in your journal get tenure? 00:47:22.600 --> 00:47:29.830 Well, of course, they should. [LAUGHTER] There's 00:47:29.830 --> 00:47:33.580 a lot of factors to consider that go into it. 00:47:33.580 --> 00:47:37.405 I think one of the things that's come up, 00:47:37.405 --> 00:47:39.310 I'm trying to think about where to start 00:47:39.310 --> 00:47:41.080 answering that question, 00:47:41.080 --> 00:47:44.920 because we're starting a new journal, 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.185 so that's a complicated. 00:47:47.185 --> 00:47:48.760 There's things about it being 00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:50.290 new as well as things about it 00:47:50.290 --> 00:47:53.545 being open access that get embedded in there. 00:47:53.545 --> 00:47:56.830 But one of the things that helps journals, 00:47:56.830 --> 00:47:58.480 and this gets back to the earlier question 00:47:58.480 --> 00:47:59.770 about quality, 00:47:59.770 --> 00:48:04.390 has to do with where they're indexed and how they're 00:48:04.390 --> 00:48:06.685 ranked by the systems 00:48:06.685 --> 00:48:09.400 which are also for profit that ranked journals. 00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:11.575 There's things out there that journals have 00:48:11.575 --> 00:48:13.630 impact factors and citation factors 00:48:13.630 --> 00:48:15.505 and all of those things. 00:48:15.505 --> 00:48:17.260 The things that build 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:20.515 scholarly reputation in part 00:48:20.515 --> 00:48:22.840 or when open access works gets cited. 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:25.210 The more an article gets cited or 00:48:25.210 --> 00:48:27.970 the more articles from a given journal gets cited, 00:48:27.970 --> 00:48:30.550 the higher that journal's impact factor 00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:32.515 and rank are going to be. 00:48:32.515 --> 00:48:36.430 Because journal rank is about citations, 00:48:36.430 --> 00:48:39.145 like does your journal publish quality work? 00:48:39.145 --> 00:48:40.750 Well, the way we know whether or not 00:48:40.750 --> 00:48:42.310 it publishes quality work is 00:48:42.310 --> 00:48:43.570 whether other scholars in 00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:46.780 the field cite articles from that. 00:48:46.780 --> 00:48:50.560 Part of it as new scholars is one, 00:48:50.560 --> 00:48:54.025 being able to publish an open access journals, but two, 00:48:54.025 --> 00:48:58.195 making sure that reputable open access journals 00:48:58.195 --> 00:49:00.595 are also in your citation list 00:49:00.595 --> 00:49:03.850 or in your reading lists that you are attentive 00:49:03.850 --> 00:49:05.620 within your field to 00:49:05.620 --> 00:49:07.765 what the open access journals might be. 00:49:07.765 --> 00:49:11.140 For example, in engineering education advances 00:49:11.140 --> 00:49:13.945 in engineering education isn't open access journal, 00:49:13.945 --> 00:49:16.300 so citing that will increase 00:49:16.300 --> 00:49:17.620 the impact factor of 00:49:17.620 --> 00:49:20.230 that journal which increases its prestige, 00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:22.405 which addresses the issues of quality. 00:49:22.405 --> 00:49:25.705 It's about becoming part of that dialogue. 00:49:25.705 --> 00:49:28.750 Prioritize open access journals 00:49:28.750 --> 00:49:30.790 and cite from those journals? 00:49:30.790 --> 00:49:35.065 That helps them. Review for open access journals. 00:49:35.065 --> 00:49:37.330 One of the biggest challenges, 00:49:37.330 --> 00:49:41.035 and I'm an associate editor for a four-page journal, 00:49:41.035 --> 00:49:44.440 as well as trying to start a new open access journal. 00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.270 One of the big challenge is, 00:49:46.270 --> 00:49:48.190 and this going back to something Peter said, 00:49:48.190 --> 00:49:51.220 the reason publishers make so much money is 00:49:51.220 --> 00:49:52.990 that a vast majority of 00:49:52.990 --> 00:49:55.690 the work in scholarly publishing is done for free. 00:49:55.690 --> 00:49:57.775 Editors of scholarly journals 00:49:57.775 --> 00:50:01.495 are us who do it as service to the community. 00:50:01.495 --> 00:50:05.890 Reviewers of any scholarly article is us. 00:50:05.890 --> 00:50:08.350 We produce it, we edit the journals, 00:50:08.350 --> 00:50:09.565 we do the peer review, 00:50:09.565 --> 00:50:11.770 we make sure the system works. 00:50:11.770 --> 00:50:16.210 When you're called upon to be a reviewer for 00:50:16.210 --> 00:50:18.100 open access journals as well as 00:50:18.100 --> 00:50:21.565 for paid print journals in your field. 00:50:21.565 --> 00:50:23.950 Review for those journals because that's also 00:50:23.950 --> 00:50:26.515 what keeps the quality up. 00:50:26.515 --> 00:50:31.210 That can be getting your name out there. 00:50:31.210 --> 00:50:33.070 Reviewing in conferences in 00:50:33.070 --> 00:50:35.500 your fields helps establish you as a reviewer, 00:50:35.500 --> 00:50:38.275 which can then lead you to journal publications 00:50:38.275 --> 00:50:41.950 as you coauthor papers in your field. 00:50:41.950 --> 00:50:44.170 Once you're an author, 00:50:44.170 --> 00:50:45.850 then your name is in the database and 00:50:45.850 --> 00:50:48.740 you'll show up when I search for reviewers. 00:50:49.650 --> 00:50:53.290 That's part of our responsibility as scholars. 00:50:53.290 --> 00:50:56.560 Being attentive to doing that for open access as well as 00:50:56.560 --> 00:50:58.330 for what are currently 00:50:58.330 --> 00:50:59.935 the top ranked journals in your field. 00:50:59.935 --> 00:51:01.870 That's part of how we get quality and how 00:51:01.870 --> 00:51:04.075 we establish the quality of the work. 00:51:04.075 --> 00:51:06.865 Does that mean then that if you're 00:51:06.865 --> 00:51:11.080 an assistant professor without the reputation, 00:51:11.080 --> 00:51:13.550 if you publish in an OA journal, 00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:16.900 is that going to count against you? 00:51:18.050 --> 00:51:22.350 If the younger scholars 00:51:22.350 --> 00:51:25.490 are not able to publish and not get tenure, 00:51:25.490 --> 00:51:29.030 that the system is going to continue, right? 00:51:30.270 --> 00:51:33.820 There's not a simple answer to that question, 00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:36.505 because different universities 00:51:36.505 --> 00:51:37.900 and different departments within 00:51:37.900 --> 00:51:40.150 universities are going to rate 00:51:40.150 --> 00:51:43.780 the journals that you publish in differently. 00:51:43.780 --> 00:51:47.620 There are departments and colleges 00:51:47.620 --> 00:51:51.145 at Virginia Tech that have a list of journals that say, 00:51:51.145 --> 00:51:52.990 these are the top journals in the field, 00:51:52.990 --> 00:51:54.760 and if you want tenure and if 00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:56.470 you want to a raise and if you want a promotion, 00:51:56.470 --> 00:51:57.940 you must publish in them. 00:51:57.940 --> 00:51:59.950 There are other departments and 00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:01.960 other colleges at Virginia Tech and 00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:05.905 elsewhere that are interested in the impact of your work. 00:52:05.905 --> 00:52:09.205 One of the good things that are less about, 00:52:09.205 --> 00:52:11.650 you must publish in journals x and more 00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:15.565 about we want to see the scholarly impact of your work 00:52:15.565 --> 00:52:19.240 and that can include citations to your work in things 00:52:19.240 --> 00:52:21.070 like Google Scholar have also 00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:23.305 begun transforming how we think about tenure. 00:52:23.305 --> 00:52:26.270 You can get citation counts. 00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:28.830 Departments may be more 00:52:28.830 --> 00:52:31.215 interested in the citation counts, 00:52:31.215 --> 00:52:33.405 but they'll also ask about. 00:52:33.405 --> 00:52:35.250 In Virginia Tech's dossiers, 00:52:35.250 --> 00:52:38.665 you have to include indicators 00:52:38.665 --> 00:52:42.340 of the impact of every article that you produce, 00:52:42.340 --> 00:52:43.810 which might be citation counts, 00:52:43.810 --> 00:52:46.945 it might be about the impact factor of the journal. 00:52:46.945 --> 00:52:48.880 Again, there are departments 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:53.440 where whether it's OA or [inaudible] 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:55.690 best journal is less relevant than what's 00:52:55.690 --> 00:52:57.670 the impact factor of this journal and what are 00:52:57.670 --> 00:52:59.845 the citation counts of your article. 00:52:59.845 --> 00:53:02.020 There are other departments that 00:53:02.020 --> 00:53:04.195 are published in these five journals, 00:53:04.195 --> 00:53:06.490 otherwise have a nice life. 00:53:06.490 --> 00:53:14.575 Changing that really takes pressure from both directions. 00:53:14.575 --> 00:53:17.650 It takes younger faculty saying, ''Okay, 00:53:17.650 --> 00:53:21.115 I got my two articles into your lovely list of journals, 00:53:21.115 --> 00:53:26.575 but I'm also publishing open-access,'' how those count. 00:53:26.575 --> 00:53:28.600 You can push the system and then 00:53:28.600 --> 00:53:30.820 that tenured faculty have to push the system from 00:53:30.820 --> 00:53:32.380 the other direction and argue 00:53:32.380 --> 00:53:35.440 for the value of open access journals. 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:40.100 It has to be bidirectional. 00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:44.785 Actually I would like to add on a little bit to this one. 00:53:44.785 --> 00:53:47.545 For young scholar, when you want to choose OA journal, 00:53:47.545 --> 00:53:49.990 what you can look into is the editor team. 00:53:49.990 --> 00:53:52.000 If you see the mainstream researcher in 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.985 your field on a board, that's usually good. 00:53:54.985 --> 00:53:56.350 If you don't see any, 00:53:56.350 --> 00:53:58.030 is all junior faculty, 00:53:58.030 --> 00:54:00.220 most likely probably stay away from it. 00:54:00.220 --> 00:54:02.590 I want to add another question a little bit, 00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:05.995 is how publisher deal with this open access, 00:54:05.995 --> 00:54:09.640 in addition to Peter says that they are hybrid type, 00:54:09.640 --> 00:54:12.040 actually hybrid type is terrible in my view 00:54:12.040 --> 00:54:14.725 because they charge laboratory subscription fee, 00:54:14.725 --> 00:54:17.485 also charge ulcer open access fee. 00:54:17.485 --> 00:54:20.095 Publisher make money twice. 00:54:20.095 --> 00:54:23.080 Another type is some publisher start to flip 00:54:23.080 --> 00:54:26.305 the subscription journal to fully opening size, 00:54:26.305 --> 00:54:27.640 as well as you're doing that. 00:54:27.640 --> 00:54:29.470 The reason why I know is, I'm editor chief 00:54:29.470 --> 00:54:31.495 of one of the journal for that. 00:54:31.495 --> 00:54:33.940 We're flipping from a traditional journal 00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:36.340 to a fully open access journal. 00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:38.560 In that way, that's fully 00:54:38.560 --> 00:54:42.190 open access. Not really the hybrid. 00:54:42.190 --> 00:54:45.820 That comment about editorial boards is also important. 00:54:45.820 --> 00:54:49.000 We are very intentional as we're starting this journal in 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.480 terms of who's on the advisory board. 00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:55.735 You look around the field and you say, okay, 00:54:55.735 --> 00:54:57.970 here's my list of people I want to 00:54:57.970 --> 00:54:59.650 meet at the advisory board, 00:54:59.650 --> 00:55:02.530 here's the list of people I want as associate editors. 00:55:02.530 --> 00:55:04.750 As co-editors, Shane and I are 00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:08.330 both relatively well-known in our fields. 00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:12.400 We put a lot of attention into 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.430 the people that are involved in this journal, 00:55:15.430 --> 00:55:19.435 because that's also part of the quality issue. 00:55:19.435 --> 00:55:22.810 I want to add something thinking from 00:55:22.810 --> 00:55:26.620 the teaching materials side because I think it's 00:55:26.620 --> 00:55:27.490 really interesting that there's 00:55:27.490 --> 00:55:28.750 this established currency of 00:55:28.750 --> 00:55:32.065 reputation and H factor and all this stuff 00:55:32.065 --> 00:55:35.950 that goes into looking 00:55:35.950 --> 00:55:37.810 at someone's published history and saying, 00:55:37.810 --> 00:55:40.615 okay, I'm assessing them. 00:55:40.615 --> 00:55:43.510 I've gotten into some interesting conversations 00:55:43.510 --> 00:55:44.830 with different people who are in 00:55:44.830 --> 00:55:49.495 the space trying to prepare open educational resources. 00:55:49.495 --> 00:55:52.975 One of them, Michael Stewart, who's VT alum is at JMU. 00:55:52.975 --> 00:55:55.255 He's really interested in trying to 00:55:55.255 --> 00:55:56.485 recreate this idea of 00:55:56.485 --> 00:55:58.360 H factor but with teaching material, 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:00.270 so that if you can 00:56:00.270 --> 00:56:04.215 start tracking who is reusing your material, 00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:06.795 how does it get changed? 00:56:06.795 --> 00:56:09.135 How does it get used in different environments? 00:56:09.135 --> 00:56:12.260 That becomes a value-added resource that 00:56:12.260 --> 00:56:14.080 right now institutions aren't necessarily 00:56:14.080 --> 00:56:16.060 looking at as part of the tenure and promotion. 00:56:16.060 --> 00:56:19.180 But maybe once there's an established currency 00:56:19.180 --> 00:56:23.260 for preserving the authorship chain and seeing 00:56:23.260 --> 00:56:24.730 how your material that you're 00:56:24.730 --> 00:56:26.590 producing is getting used and 00:56:26.590 --> 00:56:30.940 reused can be another aspect of that, 00:56:30.940 --> 00:56:34.970 it's adding value to an institution. 00:56:39.690 --> 00:56:42.040 Quick question going off that. 00:56:42.040 --> 00:56:43.630 I don't know too much about this. 00:56:43.630 --> 00:56:45.520 When I was doing a blog post for this class, 00:56:45.520 --> 00:56:49.060 I came across an open access University, 00:56:49.060 --> 00:56:50.755 University of Catalonia. 00:56:50.755 --> 00:56:52.510 I was wondering if you guys 00:56:52.510 --> 00:56:54.895 had any information off of that. 00:56:54.895 --> 00:56:58.150 It looked like it was a subsection of the university. 00:56:58.150 --> 00:57:01.030 I don't know if you guys have ever come [inaudible]. 00:57:01.030 --> 00:57:03.580 Eric's a good person to answer that 00:57:03.580 --> 00:57:06.760 with Colorado State where he published his book. 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.700 Yeah, but this is a question about an entire university. 00:57:09.700 --> 00:57:11.620 The tradition of a university. 00:57:11.620 --> 00:57:14.620 It looks like it's either a section of a university or 00:57:14.620 --> 00:57:16.660 a total university that's open 00:57:16.660 --> 00:57:19.690 access for graduate and postgraduate education. 00:57:19.690 --> 00:57:21.490 It's probably a publishing division 00:57:21.490 --> 00:57:23.575 within the university. 00:57:23.575 --> 00:57:26.680 It's probably an open admission. 00:57:26.680 --> 00:57:30.440 Like the university itself. 00:57:31.410 --> 00:57:34.225 The UK has had those, 00:57:34.225 --> 00:57:36.610 and it's open university. 00:57:36.610 --> 00:57:39.280 They need access in a different way of 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:42.740 the humans going into the university. 00:57:44.100 --> 00:57:46.840 Can I return on that for just a second though. 00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:49.900 I think it's related though insofar as having 00:57:49.900 --> 00:57:54.680 a populist priority for maximum accessibility. 00:57:55.590 --> 00:57:58.840 I come at this from a lowbrow perspective of 00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:01.645 having been at a regional comprehensive university, 00:58:01.645 --> 00:58:03.790 a public university in the state of Michigan, 00:58:03.790 --> 00:58:05.830 and really insisting from very early on in 00:58:05.830 --> 00:58:09.025 my career that knowledge wants to be free. 00:58:09.025 --> 00:58:10.990 The stuff that I do, 00:58:10.990 --> 00:58:13.090 it actually it's not very happy on paper, 00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:15.205 it can't be at its best when it's paper-based, 00:58:15.205 --> 00:58:16.750 so paper-based journals don't 00:58:16.750 --> 00:58:19.810 really care too much for my work. 00:58:19.810 --> 00:58:21.700 I needed to publish in journals that would 00:58:21.700 --> 00:58:23.620 allow my work to be at its best, 00:58:23.620 --> 00:58:25.780 which was dynamic and interactive and 00:58:25.780 --> 00:58:28.870 usually digital. That's an important piece of it. 00:58:28.870 --> 00:58:31.330 When that work was in that environment, 00:58:31.330 --> 00:58:33.250 it was quick to publish, 00:58:33.250 --> 00:58:35.260 it was circulating in ways that weren't 00:58:35.260 --> 00:58:38.350 encumbered by some of these other bottlenecks. 00:58:38.350 --> 00:58:41.200 Over time, those couple of 00:58:41.200 --> 00:58:43.735 choices just became first principles for me. 00:58:43.735 --> 00:58:45.730 Now, were they risky? 00:58:45.730 --> 00:58:48.515 I was at a Tier 2 institution. 00:58:48.515 --> 00:58:50.595 My work was valued there. 00:58:50.595 --> 00:58:53.700 I'm here now less than three months, 00:58:53.700 --> 00:58:56.070 and the rules, 00:58:56.070 --> 00:58:58.505 the attachments are different, if you will. 00:58:58.505 --> 00:59:02.590 But it is back 00:59:02.590 --> 00:59:04.420 to where do you set your sights 00:59:04.420 --> 00:59:08.095 on how you want your work to be in the world. 00:59:08.095 --> 00:59:10.345 It really is that basic, 00:59:10.345 --> 00:59:12.250 I think in so far as deciding 00:59:12.250 --> 00:59:14.380 what choices to make early on in your career. 00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:19.750 [inaudible] that they had 00:59:19.750 --> 00:59:22.420 open access journals and stuff like that, 00:59:22.420 --> 00:59:23.530 so they're producing a lot 00:59:23.530 --> 00:59:24.820 of the stuff I just didn't know. 00:59:24.820 --> 00:59:27.980 Thank you for that explanation. 00:59:30.540 --> 00:59:34.885 Another piece of that is that universities 00:59:34.885 --> 00:59:39.460 themselves are committing to supporting open access. 00:59:39.460 --> 00:59:42.445 Colorado State has had a couple of 00:59:42.445 --> 00:59:45.040 open access journals for 00:59:45.040 --> 00:59:47.320 a while and they publish open-access books. 00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:51.085 Virginia Tech publishing is supportive of open access. 00:59:51.085 --> 00:59:53.185 Somebody asked a question earlier about 00:59:53.185 --> 00:59:55.810 who pays for open access. 00:59:55.810 --> 01:00:00.550 Some of it is VT Publishing also supports, 01:00:00.550 --> 01:00:04.270 our journals not paying all of the fees connected to 01:00:04.270 --> 01:00:07.795 contracting with the system that publishes, 01:00:07.795 --> 01:00:10.810 because many journals like there's a system that 01:00:10.810 --> 01:00:12.610 manages reviews and collects 01:00:12.610 --> 01:00:15.370 admissions and does all the things. 01:00:15.370 --> 01:00:17.530 We pay for some of that and 01:00:17.530 --> 01:00:19.915 the university pays for some of that. 01:00:19.915 --> 01:00:21.730 Colorado State's been the same way, 01:00:21.730 --> 01:00:23.830 that there are universities, 01:00:23.830 --> 01:00:25.690 Purdue I think has a publishing, 01:00:25.690 --> 01:00:28.720 that support open access journals, 01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:29.770 and that's, again, 01:00:29.770 --> 01:00:33.100 another facet of quality is that this is 01:00:33.100 --> 01:00:36.850 not open access publisher in Gary's garage, 01:00:36.850 --> 01:00:38.530 this is VT Publishing, 01:00:38.530 --> 01:00:40.780 it's Colorado State University Publishing 01:00:40.780 --> 01:00:42.265 , it's Purdue Publishing. 01:00:42.265 --> 01:00:45.070 That's a big part of what I think has to 01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:47.590 happen in the open publishing world, 01:00:47.590 --> 01:00:49.660 is that it's that brand 01:00:49.660 --> 01:00:52.720 associated with universities that more and more 01:00:52.720 --> 01:00:54.610 the open access needs to be 01:00:54.610 --> 01:00:58.450 associated with quality universities, 01:00:58.450 --> 01:01:00.490 and that will help build the reputation. 01:01:00.490 --> 01:01:02.380 A lot of these predatory publishers, 01:01:02.380 --> 01:01:05.680 they come out of nowhere and they try to make it look 01:01:05.680 --> 01:01:09.160 like they're reputable organizations, 01:01:09.160 --> 01:01:12.580 but they're just something that grew up overnight. 01:01:12.580 --> 01:01:16.990 One way to combat that is to take advantage 01:01:16.990 --> 01:01:22.300 of the quality and the branding of universities. 01:01:22.300 --> 01:01:25.330 Peter, I'm just going 01:01:25.330 --> 01:01:28.420 to add to that about the universities, 01:01:28.420 --> 01:01:32.005 because you mentioned Europe, 01:01:32.005 --> 01:01:34.120 but Switzerland, all of 01:01:34.120 --> 01:01:36.325 the universities in Switzerland which are 01:01:36.325 --> 01:01:38.110 some pretty top like 01:01:38.110 --> 01:01:40.705 [inaudible] and University of Zurich, 01:01:40.705 --> 01:01:43.180 and the top rankings around the world, 01:01:43.180 --> 01:01:47.665 2020, everything has to be open access. 01:01:47.665 --> 01:01:49.975 All of their publications. 01:01:49.975 --> 01:01:52.795 We get a few of those universities 01:01:52.795 --> 01:01:54.100 that are going to do that. 01:01:54.100 --> 01:01:56.935 Many of the top are actually in Europe, 01:01:56.935 --> 01:01:58.660 they're in the states as well if we could 01:01:58.660 --> 01:02:00.655 pull some of ours over, 01:02:00.655 --> 01:02:03.205 then that would contribute to it as well. 01:02:03.205 --> 01:02:06.580 It's also true that there are 01:02:06.580 --> 01:02:11.380 entire countries that have basically said to Elsevier, 01:02:11.380 --> 01:02:13.540 and this this is Germany and Sweden, 01:02:13.540 --> 01:02:15.595 that the countries have said, 01:02:15.595 --> 01:02:20.110 we're not going to pay at 01:02:20.110 --> 01:02:24.910 that outrageous price that you're charging for journals. 01:02:24.910 --> 01:02:27.925 They've been unable to come up with a compromise, 01:02:27.925 --> 01:02:29.845 so now German researchers 01:02:29.845 --> 01:02:31.450 in universities don't have access 01:02:31.450 --> 01:02:33.580 to the new research 01:02:33.580 --> 01:02:36.025 coming out of those Elsevier journals. 01:02:36.025 --> 01:02:37.750 But they're playing hardball now 01:02:37.750 --> 01:02:44.020 because if an entire country pulls out, 01:02:44.020 --> 01:02:47.320 that sends a signal that 01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:51.320 they're weak and they're going to lose their revenues. 01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.155 being in our position, 01:02:56.155 --> 01:02:58.000 being a PhD student, 01:02:58.000 --> 01:02:59.860 you have a certain limited time to finish 01:02:59.860 --> 01:03:02.140 your program and you have to publish during that time, 01:03:02.140 --> 01:03:03.865 so you're not going to publish endlessly, 01:03:03.865 --> 01:03:06.625 probably five, six articles or whatever it is. 01:03:06.625 --> 01:03:07.960 When you go to the job market and 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:09.145 you will find your first job, 01:03:09.145 --> 01:03:11.290 then for example in my major in business, 01:03:11.290 --> 01:03:13.180 we have some certain elite journals that if you 01:03:13.180 --> 01:03:15.730 don't publish there, you cannot get a job. 01:03:15.730 --> 01:03:18.265 Looking back at that, 01:03:18.265 --> 01:03:21.790 publishing to open access alliance with my principles, 01:03:21.790 --> 01:03:24.040 but also I have to find a job to survive. 01:03:24.040 --> 01:03:26.530 What would be your suggestions 01:03:26.530 --> 01:03:29.690 to us in terms of that one? 01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:37.230 This is a very important question of course for 01:03:37.230 --> 01:03:41.085 all of the faculty and especially the young people. 01:03:41.085 --> 01:03:43.710 I would recommend go into 01:03:43.710 --> 01:03:46.500 your faculty here at VTech and also researching 01:03:46.500 --> 01:03:49.485 the places you're applying to get a sense 01:03:49.485 --> 01:03:52.830 of what is absolutely necessary and also explore, 01:03:52.830 --> 01:03:55.815 is there a movement toward open source, 01:03:55.815 --> 01:03:58.410 our faculty at those institutions publishing 01:03:58.410 --> 01:04:00.345 and some of the open journals. 01:04:00.345 --> 01:04:02.280 If there is that opportunity, 01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:04.470 there may be a great benefit as 01:04:04.470 --> 01:04:06.510 a young scholar and 01:04:06.510 --> 01:04:09.120 that ties to an earlier discussion about plus 01:04:09.120 --> 01:04:11.130 one for example which was mentioned as 01:04:11.130 --> 01:04:16.530 a top journal just open access, high impact. 01:04:16.530 --> 01:04:18.750 The question was, who are the reviewers and how do 01:04:18.750 --> 01:04:20.850 we know full disclosure? 01:04:20.850 --> 01:04:25.500 I've served as a reviewer for that journal and it was 01:04:25.500 --> 01:04:29.520 golden standard double blind review process with 01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:35.085 very serious scientific editorial process. 01:04:35.085 --> 01:04:37.620 But I could tell us a review or that there was 01:04:37.620 --> 01:04:39.330 a very strong preference 01:04:39.330 --> 01:04:41.925 on please get your review sooner, 01:04:41.925 --> 01:04:45.060 and there was a short I can't remember now exactly a 01:04:45.060 --> 01:04:48.390 short turnaround time and they asked you explicitly, 01:04:48.390 --> 01:04:49.920 would you be able to complete this? 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:52.335 If not, we will move on. 01:04:52.335 --> 01:04:55.845 If a journal you're looking at is within 01:04:55.845 --> 01:05:00.045 acceptability for your target job market, 01:05:00.045 --> 01:05:02.835 then an open journal could get your workout sooner. 01:05:02.835 --> 01:05:05.940 It's better to have a published or accepted work 01:05:05.940 --> 01:05:09.855 on your CV when you're applying then a draft. 01:05:09.855 --> 01:05:12.270 There was also an option for 01:05:12.270 --> 01:05:14.475 the viewer to reveal yourself if you want. 01:05:14.475 --> 01:05:16.230 It was double blind, 01:05:16.230 --> 01:05:19.470 but you could choose to make your name 01:05:19.470 --> 01:05:21.750 known either after it's 01:05:21.750 --> 01:05:24.885 published or earlier in the process. 01:05:24.885 --> 01:05:27.915 It's also creates a community and builds. 01:05:27.915 --> 01:05:31.050 If I want to emphasize the point that was made earlier, 01:05:31.050 --> 01:05:32.520 if you can serve as 01:05:32.520 --> 01:05:35.565 a reviewer that gets your name in the field, 01:05:35.565 --> 01:05:37.635 that gets you known to 01:05:37.635 --> 01:05:42.100 other faculty in the field and that could help as well. 01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:48.360 Quick question on the association or organization. 01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.580 They have like multiple journals. 01:05:50.580 --> 01:05:54.675 They both have the open access and then toe access. 01:05:54.675 --> 01:05:58.095 Because when I searched organization in my field, 01:05:58.095 --> 01:06:02.040 I think is a American Society of Microbiology. 01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:03.780 They have 17 journals, 01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:06.645 and then at least three of them are open access, 01:06:06.645 --> 01:06:08.790 and one really interesting thing 01:06:08.790 --> 01:06:10.725 is they're rejection policy. 01:06:10.725 --> 01:06:12.660 Hope that doesn't happen to us. 01:06:12.660 --> 01:06:16.605 But once your manuscript was rejected, 01:06:16.605 --> 01:06:19.110 by The Open Access, 01:06:19.110 --> 01:06:21.105 you are ruled out, like you're ruined. 01:06:21.105 --> 01:06:23.760 You can resubmit it to any other journals. 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:26.415 But if your manuscript 01:06:26.415 --> 01:06:29.430 was rejected by other non-Open Access journals, 01:06:29.430 --> 01:06:30.885 you can still submit to 01:06:30.885 --> 01:06:34.570 other journals including the Open Access ones. 01:06:35.180 --> 01:06:39.000 How do you know that's the case? 01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:41.445 I just read through the policy. 01:06:41.445 --> 01:06:43.320 I don't know do 01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:46.560 the associations were organizations they value 01:06:46.560 --> 01:06:49.230 different journals in different ways or whether they 01:06:49.230 --> 01:06:52.065 prioritize the Open Access better. 01:06:52.065 --> 01:06:54.540 Because it's like more a frontier 01:06:54.540 --> 01:06:57.240 or pioneers thing. Nowadays. 01:06:57.240 --> 01:07:02.100 That may be a particular way 01:07:02.100 --> 01:07:06.525 that the association is trying to confront open access. 01:07:06.525 --> 01:07:08.670 One of the things about It's important 01:07:08.670 --> 01:07:10.905 to distinguish between, say, 01:07:10.905 --> 01:07:12.390 society publishers, 01:07:12.390 --> 01:07:16.095 association publishers and these commercial publishers. 01:07:16.095 --> 01:07:18.270 Most of the society, 01:07:18.270 --> 01:07:22.200 these societies are non-profit organizations, 01:07:22.200 --> 01:07:24.390 and I personally don't have 01:07:24.390 --> 01:07:27.570 a problem with reasonably priced journals, 01:07:27.570 --> 01:07:29.115 and in the humanities. 01:07:29.115 --> 01:07:31.440 It's still because journals 01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:33.600 don't cost that much and it's still 01:07:33.600 --> 01:07:38.070 where you publish in these total access journals, 01:07:38.070 --> 01:07:40.290 but they're not outrageously expensive and 01:07:40.290 --> 01:07:43.020 that's a big part of it is I would 01:07:43.020 --> 01:07:45.690 be okay with there being 01:07:45.690 --> 01:07:47.160 a mixed system where there's 01:07:47.160 --> 01:07:48.750 open access and total access. 01:07:48.750 --> 01:07:50.670 The problem is that you have 01:07:50.670 --> 01:07:52.320 these companies that have 01:07:52.320 --> 01:07:54.705 just created this stranglehold on it. 01:07:54.705 --> 01:07:57.720 As I said, they're making this 37 percent profit, 01:07:57.720 --> 01:08:03.030 which is well above what I think is reasonable. 01:08:03.030 --> 01:08:06.950 I was going to go back to 01:08:06.950 --> 01:08:08.810 this question about strategy because it's also 01:08:08.810 --> 01:08:11.675 connected to how societies rank things. 01:08:11.675 --> 01:08:15.395 I think when you're starting your publishing career, 01:08:15.395 --> 01:08:18.170 you're always making strategic decisions, 01:08:18.170 --> 01:08:21.555 and you're trying to figure out a balanced portfolio. 01:08:21.555 --> 01:08:24.000 That's going to be different in different fields 01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.460 and sometimes in different sub-fields within fields, 01:08:26.460 --> 01:08:29.835 and yet business is one that has, there's a list. 01:08:29.835 --> 01:08:31.650 But that's the thing that you would want to 01:08:31.650 --> 01:08:34.005 strategist with your mentors and say, 01:08:34.005 --> 01:08:37.710 well, how many articles do I need in these journals? 01:08:37.710 --> 01:08:40.600 If Open Access is an important commitment to you, 01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:43.580 identifying what are the top OA journals in the field, 01:08:43.580 --> 01:08:45.995 and so it's, maybe it's three and two, 01:08:45.995 --> 01:08:47.900 maybe it's four and one, 01:08:47.900 --> 01:08:50.090 maybe it's whatever that is, 01:08:50.090 --> 01:08:52.100 and you do the same thing on 01:08:52.100 --> 01:08:54.920 the path to tenure is try to think about, 01:08:54.920 --> 01:08:59.070 what do I need to do if I'm in a department that says I 01:08:59.070 --> 01:09:03.105 must publish in nature or this journal or this journal, 01:09:03.105 --> 01:09:04.620 where are you going to do that? 01:09:04.620 --> 01:09:07.845 Then where do you have the flexibility to push and say, 01:09:07.845 --> 01:09:10.560 I'm going to be in Open Access because as you become 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:12.870 an increasingly well-known scholar in 01:09:12.870 --> 01:09:16.290 your field and your work shows up in Open Access, 01:09:16.290 --> 01:09:19.035 you are then having an impact on that. 01:09:19.035 --> 01:09:21.675 Conversations with your mentors, 01:09:21.675 --> 01:09:23.280 and if your mentor is someone who is 01:09:23.280 --> 01:09:24.630 opposed to Open Access, 01:09:24.630 --> 01:09:27.420 other people in your field who are supportive to say, 01:09:27.420 --> 01:09:29.400 what is my strategy? 01:09:29.400 --> 01:09:31.710 Where do I need to go to get a job? 01:09:31.710 --> 01:09:34.545 How many OA journals if I'm going to do OA, 01:09:34.545 --> 01:09:36.000 what's a well-known OA journal 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:38.085 in the field where people publishing? 01:09:38.085 --> 01:09:41.700 That's where again, that journal or the directory of 01:09:41.700 --> 01:09:43.425 open access journals will 01:09:43.425 --> 01:09:44.820 provide a good list and you can 01:09:44.820 --> 01:09:47.080 find what your options are. 01:09:48.530 --> 01:09:51.510 I'm in computer science and there's 01:09:51.510 --> 01:09:54.195 a I definitely know about in the software industry, 01:09:54.195 --> 01:09:57.045 at least there's a huge ongoing problem 01:09:57.045 --> 01:09:59.400 of intellectual property theft, 01:09:59.400 --> 01:10:01.815 especially across international borders. 01:10:01.815 --> 01:10:03.540 I know that's an industry, 01:10:03.540 --> 01:10:07.395 but in the educational side and academic side, 01:10:07.395 --> 01:10:10.320 that same theft can pretty much happen with 01:10:10.320 --> 01:10:11.520 citations and with 01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:14.865 improper attributions and things like that. 01:10:14.865 --> 01:10:16.980 I was wondering, how can Open 01:10:16.980 --> 01:10:21.750 Access combat this with a much lower budget than 01:10:21.750 --> 01:10:23.850 these huge publishing companies 01:10:23.850 --> 01:10:27.090 while still trying to protect somebody who 01:10:27.090 --> 01:10:28.860 publishes the work and put 01:10:28.860 --> 01:10:32.190 all their other efforts behind it when it can be so 01:10:32.190 --> 01:10:35.250 freely accessed and taken by somebody else 01:10:35.250 --> 01:10:38.835 and not given the credit that's due to them? 01:10:38.835 --> 01:10:45.870 That could affect their reputation 01:10:45.870 --> 01:10:48.210 and their career opportunities, 01:10:48.210 --> 01:10:49.875 especially when their career is based off of 01:10:49.875 --> 01:10:52.380 their citation counts and things like that. 01:10:52.380 --> 01:10:54.720 I was wondering, especially, our guest here, 01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.045 I'm sure, quite a bit about. 01:10:57.045 --> 01:11:00.165 Thank you. Well, it is a big challenge, 01:11:00.165 --> 01:11:03.090 but I think all the work is vulnerable. 01:11:03.090 --> 01:11:05.940 Speaking of cybersecurity tomorrow, 01:11:05.940 --> 01:11:10.350 everything that's online or accessible is potentially 01:11:10.350 --> 01:11:15.360 vulnerable to theft, misuse, and whatnot. 01:11:15.360 --> 01:11:18.510 When that sense, because it's all vulnerable, 01:11:18.510 --> 01:11:21.840 Open Access could be a solution, 01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:24.450 but I would emphasize Open Access 01:11:24.450 --> 01:11:27.585 through library like here, 01:11:27.585 --> 01:11:29.550 or through an Open Access journal that's 01:11:29.550 --> 01:11:32.280 affiliated with the university and with the library. 01:11:32.280 --> 01:11:34.230 Because then the university and 01:11:34.230 --> 01:11:36.240 the library curator system in 01:11:36.240 --> 01:11:40.470 particular provides the vetting process and 01:11:40.470 --> 01:11:45.180 attaches the institutional name and prestige and 01:11:45.180 --> 01:11:48.150 makes that work clearly 01:11:48.150 --> 01:11:52.230 identifiable as for example your authorship, 01:11:52.230 --> 01:11:54.210 and in that sense, 01:11:54.210 --> 01:11:56.700 what it would be easier to catch if 01:11:56.700 --> 01:11:59.250 somebody claims your work as their own, 01:11:59.250 --> 01:12:00.825 whereas you just go to 01:12:00.825 --> 01:12:02.865 Virginia Tech Library and you see it. 01:12:02.865 --> 01:12:05.745 There's no easy solution but I think doing 01:12:05.745 --> 01:12:09.120 Open Access through a reputable institution 01:12:09.120 --> 01:12:12.630 with a journal that's run by faculty members with 01:12:12.630 --> 01:12:17.115 an established reputation could actually be a solution. 01:12:17.115 --> 01:12:20.640 I think journals, just like now as graduate students, 01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:22.710 you all have to run your thesis 01:12:22.710 --> 01:12:24.450 and dissertations through authenticate, 01:12:24.450 --> 01:12:28.215 more journals are also using authenticate 01:12:28.215 --> 01:12:32.610 or similar system as part of the vetting process. 01:12:32.610 --> 01:12:34.620 The more that's out there Open Access, 01:12:34.620 --> 01:12:36.690 the easier it becomes defined plagiarism 01:12:36.690 --> 01:12:40.780 like authenticates what's going to say. 01:12:40.780 --> 01:12:43.445 This work has already been published. 01:12:43.445 --> 01:12:46.250 This exists in someone else's dissertation. 01:12:46.250 --> 01:12:49.010 This exists in this journal does exist here. 01:12:49.010 --> 01:12:52.565 You're seeing that coming up more in 01:12:52.565 --> 01:12:57.310 journals using that plagiarism software. 01:12:59.040 --> 01:13:01.855 I have a question a little more 01:13:01.855 --> 01:13:04.390 directed towards the field of engineering. 01:13:04.390 --> 01:13:09.835 But we focus a lot of times on standards like ISO 01:13:09.835 --> 01:13:16.495 or ASTM for the guidelines for how to do something. 01:13:16.495 --> 01:13:19.645 I know most of those organizations are 01:13:19.645 --> 01:13:23.080 filled with volunteers, but for example. 01:13:23.080 --> 01:13:24.730 I tried to get copies of some of 01:13:24.730 --> 01:13:26.590 that through our library here, 01:13:26.590 --> 01:13:29.635 and Larry's awesome, and if he has it, I get it. 01:13:29.635 --> 01:13:31.060 If we have to pay for it and I'll say, well, 01:13:31.060 --> 01:13:32.800 I can get it for $120, 01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:34.120 but you can't share it with 01:13:34.120 --> 01:13:36.655 your students so I can't get a digital copy. 01:13:36.655 --> 01:13:41.545 These are guidelines for how to be good engineers. 01:13:41.545 --> 01:13:45.790 It seems like if anything should be open access, 01:13:45.790 --> 01:13:47.470 it should be standards, 01:13:47.470 --> 01:13:52.045 and does anybody know of any movements or talks to get 01:13:52.045 --> 01:13:55.450 engineering standards to be open access 01:13:55.450 --> 01:14:00.710 because it just seems ridiculous that they're not? 01:14:01.800 --> 01:14:04.990 Anybody have an answer to that? 01:14:04.990 --> 01:14:08.740 [LAUGHTER] 01:14:08.740 --> 01:14:11.695 On the panel. But I know one thing in common in 01:14:11.695 --> 01:14:13.180 computer engineering and one thing that we 01:14:13.180 --> 01:14:15.040 do is most of the time, 01:14:15.040 --> 01:14:16.600 so for a lot of different things, 01:14:16.600 --> 01:14:18.040 computer engineering, pure science. 01:14:18.040 --> 01:14:20.020 There are the published ISO standards 01:14:20.020 --> 01:14:22.135 and ANSI standards and things like that. 01:14:22.135 --> 01:14:23.950 Honestly, most of the time we 01:14:23.950 --> 01:14:25.945 ignore those and go straight for the drafts. 01:14:25.945 --> 01:14:28.360 Because most of the drafts are those ISO standards, 01:14:28.360 --> 01:14:31.945 to my understanding, are free and openly available, 01:14:31.945 --> 01:14:34.555 so while that's not maybe the final version 01:14:34.555 --> 01:14:37.390 necessarily, to my understanding, 01:14:37.390 --> 01:14:40.360 the difference between a published draft and 01:14:40.360 --> 01:14:41.800 a final version of one of 01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:43.885 those ISO or ANSI standards or ASTM. 01:14:43.885 --> 01:14:46.435 I don't know about ASTM but ANSI an ISO, 01:14:46.435 --> 01:14:48.940 the differences might be minor, 01:14:48.940 --> 01:14:53.335 and unless you're doing truly nitty-gritty deep work, 01:14:53.335 --> 01:14:54.430 odds of you ever running into 01:14:54.430 --> 01:14:56.200 those differences are minimal. 01:14:56.200 --> 01:14:57.820 That's not a perfect solution, 01:14:57.820 --> 01:15:00.580 but that's been a workaround that we've, 01:15:00.580 --> 01:15:02.950 in my field, been able to 01:15:02.950 --> 01:15:07.750 use more or less fairly effectively, for a while now. 01:15:07.750 --> 01:15:10.900 I wonder though if 01:15:10.900 --> 01:15:14.220 that pressure is going to 01:15:14.220 --> 01:15:18.360 mount for that for them to make those open access. 01:15:18.360 --> 01:15:19.830 They are as you said, 01:15:19.830 --> 01:15:22.210 that's perfectly, 01:15:22.520 --> 01:15:26.085 those are exactly what should be open access. 01:15:26.085 --> 01:15:29.130 They're developed by the professional societies though. 01:15:29.130 --> 01:15:31.605 Is that where some of those come from? 01:15:31.605 --> 01:15:33.305 I think there's debate. 01:15:33.305 --> 01:15:37.210 Because the ones produced 01:15:37.210 --> 01:15:39.370 by the government should be open. 01:15:39.370 --> 01:15:41.890 But the professional society ones 01:15:41.890 --> 01:15:43.030 I would imagine are done. 01:15:43.030 --> 01:15:45.910 You can get the MILs. I haven't found a MIL Standard. 01:15:45.910 --> 01:15:47.260 I couldn't get for free. 01:15:47.260 --> 01:15:51.400 But all the other ones are by that group of 01:15:51.400 --> 01:15:53.440 voluntary people that are apparently 01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:56.290 associating a publishing cost with it. 01:15:56.290 --> 01:15:58.570 Maybe it's so they can travel and all 01:15:58.570 --> 01:15:59.650 meet someplace to talk 01:15:59.650 --> 01:16:00.910 about what the standards should be. 01:16:00.910 --> 01:16:03.805 But there's still for whatever reason if they're not. 01:16:03.805 --> 01:16:06.565 Because ANSI and ISO and all those are not, 01:16:06.565 --> 01:16:09.475 to my knowledge, purely government-run. 01:16:09.475 --> 01:16:11.620 I don't know what their costs are, 01:16:11.620 --> 01:16:13.975 but they're trying to recoup it somehow. 01:16:13.975 --> 01:16:15.910 Peter, You said something about 01:16:15.910 --> 01:16:18.610 professional societies as non-profits, 01:16:18.610 --> 01:16:21.490 which is sometimes true and sometimes, I mean, 01:16:21.490 --> 01:16:24.850 yes, technically they're non-profit organizations. 01:16:24.850 --> 01:16:26.920 But if you are connected to any of 01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:29.020 the big professional societies. 01:16:29.020 --> 01:16:32.920 IEEE, which is for Electrical and Electronic Engineers, 01:16:32.920 --> 01:16:36.355 is a massive worldwide organization. 01:16:36.355 --> 01:16:39.040 It's invested in, 01:16:39.040 --> 01:16:43.300 it's the profits of its non-profit in the same way, 01:16:43.300 --> 01:16:45.370 in some ways as a publisher. 01:16:45.370 --> 01:16:47.350 The American Chemical Society. 01:16:47.350 --> 01:16:50.500 I want to not be naive about the non-profitness of 01:16:50.500 --> 01:16:52.630 professional societies because I think 01:16:52.630 --> 01:16:55.135 whether it's ISO or some of those other organizations. 01:16:55.135 --> 01:16:57.445 Again, US professional 01:16:57.445 --> 01:16:59.755 will begin to join these organizations. 01:16:59.755 --> 01:17:02.935 You'll serve as officers in these organizations. 01:17:02.935 --> 01:17:08.560 You will have opportunities to explore, examine, 01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:11.740 and think about how to push the organizations that you're 01:17:11.740 --> 01:17:15.565 part of towards these kinds of transformations. 01:17:15.565 --> 01:17:17.380 We are the people who are 01:17:17.380 --> 01:17:19.120 making all the rules and we're the people who are 01:17:19.120 --> 01:17:21.790 producing all the content and editing all the content and 01:17:21.790 --> 01:17:25.000 reviewing all the content and doing all the work. 01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:28.630 Were actually the ones who can make the change. 01:17:28.630 --> 01:17:30.865 Gets me the question here. 01:17:30.865 --> 01:17:34.270 I just wanted to say that at least for ASTM, 01:17:34.270 --> 01:17:37.060 if the student signs up on the website 01:17:37.060 --> 01:17:40.225 as a member of the ASTM organization, 01:17:40.225 --> 01:17:42.070 they can get all of them for free. 01:17:42.070 --> 01:17:45.175 This is the case for a lot of the professional societies, 01:17:45.175 --> 01:17:48.100 is if students just sign up to be a member, 01:17:48.100 --> 01:17:50.335 it's usually free for students 01:17:50.335 --> 01:17:53.740 and they can usually get full access, so for. 01:17:53.740 --> 01:17:55.525 Don't you have to pay dues. 01:17:55.525 --> 01:17:57.130 Now, oftentimes you don't. 01:17:57.130 --> 01:17:59.320 Oftentimes for students, they're covered. 01:17:59.320 --> 01:18:03.890 for example the society of plastics engineers. 01:18:04.440 --> 01:18:07.510 Throughout the entire thing it says that it'll be 01:18:07.510 --> 01:18:09.940 like 25 bucks a year or something. 01:18:09.940 --> 01:18:13.210 But as soon as you get to the end, it says, surprise. 01:18:13.210 --> 01:18:15.820 This organization is actually paying for it, 01:18:15.820 --> 01:18:18.415 so you'll be charged zero dollars, 01:18:18.415 --> 01:18:20.320 and I've had that for, I think, 01:18:20.320 --> 01:18:21.880 two different bio-engineering 01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:24.535 societies couple of years ago. 01:18:24.535 --> 01:18:28.495 Then two of the three societies I'm in for here, 01:18:28.495 --> 01:18:31.465 so there's a good chance if they just dig into it, 01:18:31.465 --> 01:18:34.010 you can get the resources for free. 01:18:39.870 --> 01:18:44.980 I had a general question about open access 01:18:44.980 --> 01:18:47.410 is often touted as 01:18:47.410 --> 01:18:50.830 a way to get science to reach the public and taxpayers. 01:18:50.830 --> 01:18:53.800 But I have strong doubts about that because it's still 01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:56.935 written in the same format as toll access. 01:18:56.935 --> 01:18:59.260 It doesn't really do the general 01:18:59.260 --> 01:19:01.510 public any good if I write about 01:19:01.510 --> 01:19:06.610 the CT reconstruction of [FOREIGN] and it's phylogenetic 01:19:06.610 --> 01:19:10.540 implications because that's not 01:19:10.540 --> 01:19:12.790 written in a language for the public. 01:19:12.790 --> 01:19:16.195 There is one journal in my discipline that has 01:19:16.195 --> 01:19:20.695 a plain language summary that you have to submit with it. 01:19:20.695 --> 01:19:22.090 But I was just wondering about 01:19:22.090 --> 01:19:23.710 the link between open access 01:19:23.710 --> 01:19:27.710 and then actually being open to the public. 01:19:31.950 --> 01:19:34.645 Well, you would be surprised. 01:19:34.645 --> 01:19:36.370 But that's a great course, 01:19:36.370 --> 01:19:38.500 so I have one example from my work 01:19:38.500 --> 01:19:41.035 and I tend to do policy-relevant work. 01:19:41.035 --> 01:19:43.390 My broader areas, national security, 01:19:43.390 --> 01:19:44.470 international security, 01:19:44.470 --> 01:19:46.600 and role of technology in those areas, 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:49.720 so cyber is one aspect I've looked at 01:19:49.720 --> 01:19:51.925 nuclear weapons negotiations 01:19:51.925 --> 01:19:54.385 strategic issues between major countries, 01:19:54.385 --> 01:19:56.095 and what I found. 01:19:56.095 --> 01:19:58.540 I like to work with practitioners and make 01:19:58.540 --> 01:20:01.045 the science useful to 01:20:01.045 --> 01:20:04.450 decision-makers who serve the public 01:20:04.450 --> 01:20:07.660 in the military intelligence services and whatnot, 01:20:07.660 --> 01:20:10.930 or congressional members wherever 01:20:10.930 --> 01:20:12.520 the appropriate venue is. 01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:14.440 What I found in 01:20:14.440 --> 01:20:18.670 serious meetings with people who want to know. 01:20:18.670 --> 01:20:21.940 They want to know the findings of the science. 01:20:21.940 --> 01:20:23.920 Now they're not necessarily experts in 01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:26.245 those fields and they don't want the jargon. 01:20:26.245 --> 01:20:28.450 Please tell me what I need to know right now? 01:20:28.450 --> 01:20:29.500 What's your takeaway? 01:20:29.500 --> 01:20:30.640 What's your finding? 01:20:30.640 --> 01:20:32.290 How could I use it now? 01:20:32.290 --> 01:20:33.700 But they also want to know 01:20:33.700 --> 01:20:35.620 that there is science behind it, 01:20:35.620 --> 01:20:37.930 and that they could go to 01:20:37.930 --> 01:20:41.035 a journal article that has been properly vetted, 01:20:41.035 --> 01:20:43.900 and if it's behind the firewall and they don't 01:20:43.900 --> 01:20:45.220 have university access that 01:20:45.220 --> 01:20:46.645 they won't be able to make that step. 01:20:46.645 --> 01:20:50.035 Or they could if they have time, but they're very busy. 01:20:50.035 --> 01:20:53.320 I've had to scale 01:20:53.320 --> 01:20:56.725 these problems and get the institution to pay for. 01:20:56.725 --> 01:20:58.840 They want to know the science behind it, 01:20:58.840 --> 01:21:01.780 either just to know so they can ask more questions or to 01:21:01.780 --> 01:21:05.575 send some of their experts in their shop to go read it. 01:21:05.575 --> 01:21:09.070 That's maybe not the exact direct route, 01:21:09.070 --> 01:21:11.575 but it's something that I have experienced in it. 01:21:11.575 --> 01:21:13.960 It makes your work as an author, as a scholar, 01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:17.005 as a scientist more impactful, 01:21:17.005 --> 01:21:19.780 and your reputation out there as 01:21:19.780 --> 01:21:20.890 a serious scholar who can 01:21:20.890 --> 01:21:22.450 communicate to the science community, 01:21:22.450 --> 01:21:25.060 but also to regular people, decision-makers, 01:21:25.060 --> 01:21:28.570 and business or politics. It's worth a try. 01:21:28.570 --> 01:21:30.730 It's also the case, 01:21:30.730 --> 01:21:36.430 I think that you'd be surprised how many people 01:21:36.430 --> 01:21:39.130 with engineering degrees who aren't associated with 01:21:39.130 --> 01:21:42.460 a university still need access to that material. 01:21:42.460 --> 01:21:44.200 They may be specialists. 01:21:44.200 --> 01:21:46.690 There's an increasingly educated 01:21:46.690 --> 01:21:49.540 public where there are people who 01:21:49.540 --> 01:21:52.720 will appreciate what you're doing and they don't have 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:56.245 access to it through a university. 01:21:56.245 --> 01:21:58.210 Then there's the international component, 01:21:58.210 --> 01:22:00.490 which I think is a huge part of it. 01:22:00.490 --> 01:22:04.570 And that is you have really skilled practitioners 01:22:04.570 --> 01:22:05.890 around the world who simply don't 01:22:05.890 --> 01:22:08.245 have access to that research. 01:22:08.245 --> 01:22:11.470 There is an audience out 01:22:11.470 --> 01:22:14.815 there that you'd be surprised how substantial it is. 01:22:14.815 --> 01:22:17.410 I think that's true even in the US. 01:22:17.410 --> 01:22:20.275 Gail said nine million. 01:22:20.275 --> 01:22:23.005 There's not a lot of community colleges 01:22:23.005 --> 01:22:26.485 that are able to afford access to those journals. 01:22:26.485 --> 01:22:30.790 But there are young scientists, young historians, 01:22:30.790 --> 01:22:33.865 budding scholars in human nutrition 01:22:33.865 --> 01:22:35.470 in all of those places 01:22:35.470 --> 01:22:38.170 who may want to learn to do research and 01:22:38.170 --> 01:22:41.845 may end up in these exploratory places. 01:22:41.845 --> 01:22:45.205 I think across these spaces 01:22:45.205 --> 01:22:47.560 internationally and in the US, 01:22:47.560 --> 01:22:50.710 there are more people who are interested 01:22:50.710 --> 01:22:52.030 and who would be interested in 01:22:52.030 --> 01:22:53.680 our work at community colleges, 01:22:53.680 --> 01:22:55.690 at regional colleges, at Tier 2, 01:22:55.690 --> 01:22:58.000 Tier 3 places that don't have budgets for 01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:01.570 these journals than we might imagine. 01:23:01.570 --> 01:23:03.955 You'd be surprised at who would care. 01:23:03.955 --> 01:23:06.670 Sometimes I think if they had access. 01:23:06.670 --> 01:23:08.590 Then developing nations. 01:23:08.590 --> 01:23:11.660 Yeah, that's the international. 01:23:13.440 --> 01:23:16.870 The risk of asking a semi-loaded question. 01:23:16.870 --> 01:23:20.800 [LAUGHTER] How has for 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.740 example Sci-Hub affected the open access movement? 01:23:23.740 --> 01:23:25.450 Has it been a positive, 01:23:25.450 --> 01:23:28.750 a negative as it hurt the image, help the image? 01:23:28.750 --> 01:23:31.610 Does everybody familiar with Sci-Hub? 01:23:32.100 --> 01:23:35.680 Sci-Hub is a rogue. 01:23:35.680 --> 01:23:36.940 I guess I should be careful 01:23:36.940 --> 01:23:38.260 by using that word these days. 01:23:38.260 --> 01:23:44.875 [LAUGHTER] A rogue site where they 01:23:44.875 --> 01:23:48.965 illicitly capture tons of 01:23:48.965 --> 01:23:51.540 research that's behind paywalls 01:23:51.540 --> 01:23:53.370 and make it openly accessible, 01:23:53.370 --> 01:23:58.440 and it's organized by a Russian woman 01:23:58.440 --> 01:24:04.480 who is committed to this work being open, 01:24:04.480 --> 01:24:10.060 but she's been sued many times by Elsevier and Springer. 01:24:10.060 --> 01:24:12.145 But what are they going to do? 01:24:12.145 --> 01:24:14.935 There is a big question about 01:24:14.935 --> 01:24:18.610 Sci-Hub and what its long-term impact is going to be. 01:24:18.610 --> 01:24:21.800 Does anybody here have thoughts about that? 01:24:23.870 --> 01:24:26.730 Generally, I think it comes down to 01:24:26.730 --> 01:24:28.740 ethics in the profession and 01:24:28.740 --> 01:24:30.600 especially in our profession as 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:33.990 scholars and contributors to the various fields. 01:24:33.990 --> 01:24:37.545 As authors you don't want your work stolen. 01:24:37.545 --> 01:24:40.605 Don't be going around using it. 01:24:40.605 --> 01:24:42.360 I'm no familiar with, so I have very 01:24:42.360 --> 01:24:44.520 directly so I can't speak to that experience but 01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:46.560 I would say it behooves 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:48.720 us to start with the ethics and what's 01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:50.640 the right thing to do and if it has 01:24:50.640 --> 01:24:53.070 the proper licenses use it. 01:24:53.070 --> 01:24:56.145 If not, think about it. 01:24:56.145 --> 01:24:57.600 You'll be out there teaching and 01:24:57.600 --> 01:24:59.550 affecting young people or 01:24:59.550 --> 01:25:04.745 old people and we need to lead by example. 01:25:04.745 --> 01:25:09.230 I would also say though I do think that as 01:25:09.230 --> 01:25:11.690 more universities are pulling 01:25:11.690 --> 01:25:14.485 back from subscription journals; 01:25:14.485 --> 01:25:17.175 expensive ones, and they're finding 01:25:17.175 --> 01:25:20.280 less push back from their faculty, 01:25:20.280 --> 01:25:21.810 I think part of it is because 01:25:21.810 --> 01:25:24.210 people they have other ways to find it, 01:25:24.210 --> 01:25:25.710 some of it legally, 01:25:25.710 --> 01:25:27.165 some of them illegally. 01:25:27.165 --> 01:25:30.345 But I think much of Sci-Hubs 01:25:30.345 --> 01:25:33.990 downloads come from university IP addresses, 01:25:33.990 --> 01:25:38.400 so it;s definitely having an impact inside the academy. 01:25:38.400 --> 01:25:41.880 [inaudible] 01:25:41.880 --> 01:25:44.700 There's a parallel that may or may not be a good one, 01:25:44.700 --> 01:25:46.680 but does anyone remember 01:25:46.680 --> 01:25:49.410 Napster and illegally downloading music? 01:25:49.410 --> 01:25:52.980 [NOISE] I'm sure that still happens, 01:25:52.980 --> 01:25:57.600 but as soon as commercial companies figured out how to 01:25:57.600 --> 01:25:59.490 make it accessible in 01:25:59.490 --> 01:26:02.925 the ways that people wanted to consume it, 01:26:02.925 --> 01:26:06.090 it went from a major problem 01:26:06.090 --> 01:26:09.150 in the industry to just the back burner. 01:26:09.150 --> 01:26:13.275 I think that just had a lot to do with people. 01:26:13.275 --> 01:26:15.210 People were doing it illegally because there was 01:26:15.210 --> 01:26:16.740 no other way of 01:26:16.740 --> 01:26:19.260 consuming that media in the ways they wanted to, 01:26:19.260 --> 01:26:20.310 but as soon as there were 01:26:20.310 --> 01:26:23.520 legitimate ways of doing that then people use that. 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:25.800 That is a good parallel. 01:26:25.800 --> 01:26:27.960 I think that's exactly right. 01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:31.860 I think Sci-Hub shows how broken our system is right now 01:26:31.860 --> 01:26:36.210 and how much people want access that they cannot get. 01:26:36.210 --> 01:26:39.630 It's a symptom of 01:26:39.630 --> 01:26:44.550 the problems that we have right now of providing access. 01:26:44.550 --> 01:26:58.650 [LAUGHTER] 01:26:58.650 --> 01:27:00.120 We've talked about at least you guys have 01:27:00.120 --> 01:27:02.640 mentioned community colleges in 01:27:02.640 --> 01:27:05.220 developing countries or an international student 01:27:05.220 --> 01:27:07.870 not being able to access some of these things. 01:27:10.160 --> 01:27:14.070 What does open success look like or it 01:27:14.070 --> 01:27:17.340 looks like for people who are not in academia, 01:27:17.340 --> 01:27:19.470 who might be out there doing 01:27:19.470 --> 01:27:22.260 research and they want to publish their word. 01:27:22.260 --> 01:27:25.215 But when I came here 01:27:25.215 --> 01:27:28.740 or before,a couple of days ago is when I started. 01:27:28.740 --> 01:27:30.615 M, I hope actually has a fee. 01:27:30.615 --> 01:27:33.480 I had to pay though upload, 01:27:33.480 --> 01:27:34.680 an article or something like that. 01:27:34.680 --> 01:27:37.690 I was starting or $1,500 or something like that. 01:27:37.760 --> 01:27:41.430 Those folks do not have a university backing 01:27:41.430 --> 01:27:45.580 or the current 25,000 grant money. 01:27:46.940 --> 01:27:49.605 For me, it doesn't make much sense. 01:27:49.605 --> 01:27:51.600 I'm doing all this work research wise, 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.575 but then I still have to go pay for it to get out there. 01:27:55.575 --> 01:27:57.240 It's a huge question. 01:27:57.240 --> 01:28:00.720 It's definitely one of the biggest I 01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:04.230 guess controversial topics inside of publishing right 01:28:04.230 --> 01:28:10.380 now which is open access publishing inadvertently 01:28:10.380 --> 01:28:13.680 reinforcing some of the developers 01:28:13.680 --> 01:28:18.030 and non-developed boundaries. 01:28:18.030 --> 01:28:23.460 You're right. If you have to pay 1,000, 01:28:23.460 --> 01:28:28.590 2,000, $3,000 to publish an article, that's an issue. 01:28:28.590 --> 01:28:34.350 That's true in non open access journals as well. 01:28:34.350 --> 01:28:36.510 In some fields in the humanities, 01:28:36.510 --> 01:28:38.730 it's less likely that there's a publication fee. 01:28:38.730 --> 01:28:39.990 One of the things that really confused 01:28:39.990 --> 01:28:41.220 me when I got to engineering 01:28:41.220 --> 01:28:44.340 was that even in subscription journals, 01:28:44.340 --> 01:28:46.740 I still have to pay 1,000 bucks 01:28:46.740 --> 01:28:49.900 give or take to get an article published. 01:28:50.270 --> 01:28:52.440 It's not necessarily different, 01:28:52.440 --> 01:28:57.390 but it's also true that both paywall; 01:28:57.390 --> 01:29:00.315 what did you call them told journals NOAA journals, 01:29:00.315 --> 01:29:04.665 some of them do have their own invention funds so that 01:29:04.665 --> 01:29:09.085 if you can't afford to pay the publication charges, 01:29:09.085 --> 01:29:11.990 the journal itself can do some subsidizing. 01:29:11.990 --> 01:29:13.640 Some of that is in 01:29:13.640 --> 01:29:15.845 the same way that insurance premiums work. 01:29:15.845 --> 01:29:17.435 Everybody pays in, 01:29:17.435 --> 01:29:19.820 and maybe if you're healthy and functional 01:29:19.820 --> 01:29:20.960 and you have a grant from the National 01:29:20.960 --> 01:29:22.730 Science Foundation or DOE, 01:29:22.730 --> 01:29:24.470 you're paying a little more so that 01:29:24.470 --> 01:29:26.480 if we get someone who can't afford 01:29:26.480 --> 01:29:28.560 that because of the university 01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:30.960 that they're add or they're an independent researcher, 01:29:30.960 --> 01:29:33.640 we can subsidize that cost. 01:29:34.070 --> 01:29:37.815 That's almost separate from 01:29:37.815 --> 01:29:39.240 open access depending on 01:29:39.240 --> 01:29:41.400 the field because in the humanities, 01:29:41.400 --> 01:29:42.945 when I published in English 01:29:42.945 --> 01:29:44.310 there were no article charges. 01:29:44.310 --> 01:29:45.510 When I got to engineering, 01:29:45.510 --> 01:29:49.950 I was like you got to pay to a page charge. 01:29:49.950 --> 01:29:55.350 It's 68, 100 bucks a page to publish in a print journal. 01:29:55.350 --> 01:29:57.210 I was going to say close to 01:29:57.210 --> 01:29:58.410 the same thing while you're here, 01:29:58.410 --> 01:30:01.455 at Virginia Tech you want to apply to this pension fund. 01:30:01.455 --> 01:30:03.810 The form is with people 01:30:03.810 --> 01:30:06.000 outside of universities who don't have. [inaudible] 01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:08.220 Exactly. But what [NOISE] you 01:30:08.220 --> 01:30:10.500 said is very true that many of the journals that 01:30:10.500 --> 01:30:13.260 have article processing charges will waive 01:30:13.260 --> 01:30:16.425 them for people in developing countries. 01:30:16.425 --> 01:30:18.570 You need to just look a little further and see if you 01:30:18.570 --> 01:30:21.645 can take advantage of that after you leave Virginia Tech. 01:30:21.645 --> 01:30:23.250 The other thing I'd point to this is 01:30:23.250 --> 01:30:27.000 the question we were talking about flipping the system. 01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:30.270 All these libraries are paying 01:30:30.270 --> 01:30:33.810 millions and millions of dollars for the subscriptions. 01:30:33.810 --> 01:30:35.775 If the system were flipped, 01:30:35.775 --> 01:30:38.895 that money would not have to be paid. 01:30:38.895 --> 01:30:40.860 There is a way to then 01:30:40.860 --> 01:30:45.060 reconfigure the system so that a library, 01:30:45.060 --> 01:30:47.610 all of this money that's going to subscriptions goes to 01:30:47.610 --> 01:30:51.375 supporting the front end of open access publishing. 01:30:51.375 --> 01:30:54.960 That's the hope of this plan S is 01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:58.710 that eventually the system will be flipped and 01:30:58.710 --> 01:31:02.130 that all of that money that's going to the big publishers 01:31:02.130 --> 01:31:04.710 can sub end the cost of 01:31:04.710 --> 01:31:07.260 actually of the authors publishing with those journals. 01:31:07.260 --> 01:31:11.235 And that is just changing when the money is going out? 01:31:11.235 --> 01:31:11.700 No. 01:31:11.700 --> 01:31:14.080 Back end or front end. 01:31:16.160 --> 01:31:22.170 The authors don't have to then pay those charges. 01:31:22.170 --> 01:31:26.250 If enough libraries subscribed to this 01:31:26.250 --> 01:31:30.510 and are propping up these journals, 01:31:30.510 --> 01:31:33.975 authors don't have to pay the article processing charges. 01:31:33.975 --> 01:31:35.520 If you're in somewhere 01:31:35.520 --> 01:31:36.990 where you someplace where you don't 01:31:36.990 --> 01:31:40.950 have access to money to publish an article, 01:31:40.950 --> 01:31:44.190 that's fine because it's the cost is being 01:31:44.190 --> 01:31:47.865 shared across many different institutions. 01:31:47.865 --> 01:31:49.935 Can I just ask, 01:31:49.935 --> 01:31:54.945 who has access to open access journals? 01:31:54.945 --> 01:31:57.450 Now it sounds like a silly question, 01:31:57.450 --> 01:32:00.150 but we're focusing right 01:32:00.150 --> 01:32:03.960 now on the pain part before the authors. 01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:08.050 But I think part of your question was, who has access? 01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:14.985 The farmer down the street as well as the scholar? 01:32:14.985 --> 01:32:18.000 Yes. 01:32:18.000 --> 01:32:20.350 It depends on their Internet connection. 01:32:21.500 --> 01:32:24.420 [LAUGHTER I know it sounds a little silly, 01:32:24.420 --> 01:32:26.460 so let's not lose sight of 01:32:26.460 --> 01:32:28.290 that because we've really been talking 01:32:28.290 --> 01:32:32.055 now about the money part of it which is important, 01:32:32.055 --> 01:32:33.960 but part of the reason that we want to 01:32:33.960 --> 01:32:35.880 publish in that is so that 01:32:35.880 --> 01:32:38.820 anybody who has access to the Internet which then there's 01:32:38.820 --> 01:32:43.270 still a divide they can access it. 01:32:44.120 --> 01:32:47.775 I wanted to get back that to what directly said 01:32:47.775 --> 01:32:51.450 about the ethical understanding of knowledge and 01:32:51.450 --> 01:32:52.740 the role of the university 01:32:52.740 --> 01:32:55.560 [NOISE] I don't want to lose those comments and 01:32:55.560 --> 01:32:57.750 maybe you could say a little bit more about that ethic 01:32:57.750 --> 01:33:01.320 of knowledge dissemination that drives 01:33:01.320 --> 01:33:04.080 a lot of this because I think the role of 01:33:04.080 --> 01:33:05.490 libraries like all of this is 01:33:05.490 --> 01:33:08.620 about why do we do what we do? 01:33:09.920 --> 01:33:12.420 Again, it's first principles, 01:33:12.420 --> 01:33:17.325 it's [inaudible] I was at Syracuse doing my PhD in 2004, 01:33:17.325 --> 01:33:22.935 blogs were making a big splash. 01:33:22.935 --> 01:33:24.555 There are a lot of academics trying to 01:33:24.555 --> 01:33:27.100 write kind of iteratively and publicly, 01:33:27.100 --> 01:33:30.050 their in-progress stuff as they were working through it, 01:33:30.050 --> 01:33:32.795 not publishing everything online, 01:33:32.795 --> 01:33:35.570 but it's in pieces and snippets. 01:33:35.570 --> 01:33:39.150 Doing that as a way to engage real audiences, 01:33:39.150 --> 01:33:41.430 real readers dynamically in 01:33:41.430 --> 01:33:44.505 real time as they're doing the work. 01:33:44.505 --> 01:33:48.855 It was profoundly eye-opening moment to be, 01:33:48.855 --> 01:33:53.085 to be emerging through a PhD program. 01:33:53.085 --> 01:33:56.250 But at that time Lawrence Lessig, 01:33:56.250 --> 01:33:58.200 that Creative Commons, all this stuff was really 01:33:58.200 --> 01:34:01.105 happening in the early 2000s. 01:34:01.105 --> 01:34:04.470 There came to be a greater recognition of 01:34:04.470 --> 01:34:07.320 fundamentally whatever is this list of the top five, 01:34:07.320 --> 01:34:09.625 all of these, it's parasitical. 01:34:09.625 --> 01:34:11.060 I'm a state employee. 01:34:11.060 --> 01:34:14.180 I wok for the State of Virginia, Virginia Tech, 01:34:14.180 --> 01:34:16.025 but the State of Virginia, 01:34:16.025 --> 01:34:18.620 I'm going to sell my scholarship 01:34:18.620 --> 01:34:21.000 to what Blackwell, something like this. 01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:22.575 I don't know. Pick your company. 01:34:22.575 --> 01:34:23.430 You give it to. 01:34:23.430 --> 01:34:26.550 You give it to give it to so they can sell it back to 01:34:26.550 --> 01:34:28.740 my own university to make it available to 01:34:28.740 --> 01:34:32.310 the people I'm working with and teaching. 01:34:32.310 --> 01:34:35.235 It's fundamentally absurd. 01:34:35.235 --> 01:34:37.425 Who bought us to check it? 01:34:37.425 --> 01:34:40.725 If not us, no one will, and it will continue. 01:34:40.725 --> 01:34:42.315 Obviously it's profit interested. 01:34:42.315 --> 01:34:44.370 But this is why I think it 01:34:44.370 --> 01:34:47.295 matters now for us to actually take that stand. 01:34:47.295 --> 01:34:49.170 It is risk-taking. 01:34:49.170 --> 01:34:50.745 It's not a panacea. 01:34:50.745 --> 01:34:53.850 Open access doesn't solve all of our problems. 01:34:53.850 --> 01:34:57.510 But it does just bring us back to caring for 01:34:57.510 --> 01:34:59.220 what do we want our work to do in 01:34:59.220 --> 01:35:02.025 the world and with whom? 01:35:02.025 --> 01:35:06.540 I think we should decide that the oligopoly 01:35:06.540 --> 01:35:10.785 of you publishers. Soapbox, sorry,. 01:35:10.785 --> 01:35:15.492 Yes. [NOISE] 01:35:15.492 --> 01:35:18.670 You had a question before that we never had to get to. 01:35:18.670 --> 01:35:20.170 [LAUGHTER] 01:35:20.170 --> 01:35:21.700 It's been mentioned so many times 01:35:21.700 --> 01:35:23.305 how much the publishers make money. 01:35:23.305 --> 01:35:24.460 I know it all too well. 01:35:24.460 --> 01:35:26.020 I work on a paper for a year, 01:35:26.020 --> 01:35:27.250 and at the end of it, 01:35:27.250 --> 01:35:29.620 I pay to get it published and I sign off my rights, 01:35:29.620 --> 01:35:33.490 after I sign it off and start doing my paper, 01:35:33.490 --> 01:35:34.960 I can plagiarize myself basically. 01:35:34.960 --> 01:35:37.060 [LAUGHTER] My question is, 01:35:37.060 --> 01:35:39.320 how did you get to this point? 01:35:40.050 --> 01:35:43.000 How did you get to a point where publisher have 01:35:43.000 --> 01:35:46.790 so much power and the people in power have zero power? 01:35:47.220 --> 01:35:51.080 I would answer this question, 01:35:52.310 --> 01:35:56.505 authors need to value their work. 01:35:56.505 --> 01:35:59.265 When authors value their work, 01:35:59.265 --> 01:36:05.830 they will insist to retain at least some of their rights. 01:36:05.830 --> 01:36:07.840 The publisher may still publish it, 01:36:07.840 --> 01:36:10.105 but if you can't share it with your class, 01:36:10.105 --> 01:36:12.310 or you can't post it online, 01:36:12.310 --> 01:36:14.200 or you can't share it in some other way, 01:36:14.200 --> 01:36:17.440 or you can't adapt it and use the same model and run 01:36:17.440 --> 01:36:21.250 it in a different place or a different context, 01:36:21.250 --> 01:36:24.220 then your scholarship is impeded, 01:36:24.220 --> 01:36:27.205 your ability to teach others is impeded. 01:36:27.205 --> 01:36:28.960 I think part of this comes down 01:36:28.960 --> 01:36:32.620 to encouraging authors to say, 01:36:32.620 --> 01:36:35.425 no, this is worth more than what you're giving me, 01:36:35.425 --> 01:36:38.660 and to push back. 01:36:39.690 --> 01:36:42.595 There are several tools to do that, 01:36:42.595 --> 01:36:44.710 there's an open-access addendum 01:36:44.710 --> 01:36:46.555 that you can attach to your work, 01:36:46.555 --> 01:36:49.910 there are ways that you can archive 01:36:49.920 --> 01:36:52.960 but I think a lot of this comes down 01:36:52.960 --> 01:36:56.455 to authors saying no, 01:36:56.455 --> 01:37:01.030 that they realize that 01:37:01.030 --> 01:37:02.620 this work is valuable and they want 01:37:02.620 --> 01:37:08.800 to not to make money off of it, 01:37:08.800 --> 01:37:10.990 but they realize that it's 01:37:10.990 --> 01:37:14.155 valuable for more than somebody's commercial gain. 01:37:14.155 --> 01:37:15.835 Just add though that, 01:37:15.835 --> 01:37:18.820 in terms of historically how it came about, 01:37:18.820 --> 01:37:22.870 it really started in basically the 1970s. 01:37:22.870 --> 01:37:24.820 I've read articles about this, 01:37:24.820 --> 01:37:29.695 about there were a few publishers, 01:37:29.695 --> 01:37:32.355 men in every case, 01:37:32.355 --> 01:37:35.130 who figured out there's money 01:37:35.130 --> 01:37:38.050 to be made with scholarly publishing. 01:37:38.050 --> 01:37:41.080 These journals typically you don't make 01:37:41.080 --> 01:37:43.930 money off of them but if you get enough of them, 01:37:43.930 --> 01:37:47.290 put enough of them together and you control the system, 01:37:47.290 --> 01:37:49.420 then you can charge whatever you want for it. 01:37:49.420 --> 01:37:52.405 A few of these publishers figure that out. 01:37:52.405 --> 01:37:54.010 How did we get that way? 01:37:54.010 --> 01:37:58.450 It is like the frog in the water as it starts to boil. 01:37:58.450 --> 01:38:03.055 All of a sudden, editors of journals started to say, 01:38:03.055 --> 01:38:05.440 well, we published our journal independently, 01:38:05.440 --> 01:38:09.100 but Taylor and Francis or Elsevier wants to give 01:38:09.100 --> 01:38:14.140 us extra money to publish this journal with them. 01:38:14.140 --> 01:38:16.465 How can I turn down that money? 01:38:16.465 --> 01:38:20.410 It ends up snowballing to the point where 01:38:20.410 --> 01:38:24.340 now we're down to five publishers controlling everything. 01:38:24.340 --> 01:38:25.810 Let me also add, 01:38:25.810 --> 01:38:29.230 part of the problem is the system because 01:38:29.230 --> 01:38:33.490 [NOISE] that may be how the five got there. 01:38:33.490 --> 01:38:35.710 But then we as 01:38:35.710 --> 01:38:39.730 faculty and institutions of higher education, 01:38:39.730 --> 01:38:42.820 we literally bought into it. 01:38:42.820 --> 01:38:45.400 Now our value and 01:38:45.400 --> 01:38:47.665 I'm not speaking for me or a lot of us, 01:38:47.665 --> 01:38:50.200 but our value is evaluated 01:38:50.200 --> 01:38:54.490 is on how much we subscribe to the system. 01:38:54.490 --> 01:38:59.650 Faculty have to be in that brave space to say, 01:38:59.650 --> 01:39:01.720 I'm not going to do this anymore, 01:39:01.720 --> 01:39:03.610 and the system has to change, 01:39:03.610 --> 01:39:06.190 and tech has to change. 01:39:06.190 --> 01:39:10.105 I suspect too it's also connected to university rankings. 01:39:10.105 --> 01:39:12.235 Why does a department want 01:39:12.235 --> 01:39:15.610 its scholars to publish in a prestigious journal X? 01:39:15.610 --> 01:39:17.500 Because if its scholars are publishing in 01:39:17.500 --> 01:39:18.970 prestigious journal X when 01:39:18.970 --> 01:39:21.730 the US News and World Report survey comes around, 01:39:21.730 --> 01:39:23.590 people are going to cite it. 01:39:23.590 --> 01:39:27.805 It's also embedded in that system as well. 01:39:27.805 --> 01:39:32.770 Again, there's got to be both scholars willing to take 01:39:32.770 --> 01:39:35.800 risks and then post-tenure scholars willing 01:39:35.800 --> 01:39:39.115 to push for different ways of evaluating, 01:39:39.115 --> 01:39:41.260 different standards, 01:39:41.260 --> 01:39:44.185 recognition of alt metrics as an indication. 01:39:44.185 --> 01:39:46.270 The value of our work is the meaning 01:39:46.270 --> 01:39:48.910 that it makes in the world. 01:39:48.910 --> 01:39:51.205 Alt metrics, news release, 01:39:51.205 --> 01:39:53.845 citings, press reports, interviews, 01:39:53.845 --> 01:39:56.230 as well as, Google Scholar says 01:39:56.230 --> 01:39:59.455 413 people have cited your article. 01:39:59.455 --> 01:40:03.330 It's that piece of 01:40:03.330 --> 01:40:06.150 it too because I think the university rankings, 01:40:06.150 --> 01:40:09.080 departments, education is a business, 01:40:09.080 --> 01:40:12.535 at least now, departments want to be well-ranked. 01:40:12.535 --> 01:40:14.950 We want to go up in US News and World Report, 01:40:14.950 --> 01:40:16.900 we want to be one of the top 5 business schools, 01:40:16.900 --> 01:40:19.810 we want to be one of the top 5 engineering schools, 01:40:19.810 --> 01:40:23.695 and so we do that by building a reputation because 01:40:23.695 --> 01:40:25.660 all of our people publish in 01:40:25.660 --> 01:40:28.690 the journal of really smart people in our field. 01:40:28.690 --> 01:40:32.005 We manipulate the impact factor. 01:40:32.005 --> 01:40:33.895 Yes, we do. 01:40:33.895 --> 01:40:37.510 It's eight o'clock and it's really hot in here. 01:40:37.510 --> 01:40:44.395 [LAUGHTER] Is there anybody just dying to ask a question? 01:40:44.395 --> 01:40:46.585 I just wanted to clarify. 01:40:46.585 --> 01:40:48.940 My article came out in Piaget, 01:40:48.940 --> 01:40:52.150 so it's open access. 01:40:52.150 --> 01:40:55.780 It reached experts in Argentina in 01:40:55.780 --> 01:40:59.860 developing countries but it's not accessible in 01:40:59.860 --> 01:41:03.400 terms of content to the farmer or 01:41:03.400 --> 01:41:08.410 the brick worker that the fossil came out of. 01:41:08.410 --> 01:41:11.050 Maybe that's going beyond what 01:41:11.050 --> 01:41:14.290 open access journals are the problem 1 01:41:14.290 --> 01:41:16.000 of being the industry and then problem 2 01:41:16.000 --> 01:41:20.035 actually reaching general public. 01:41:20.035 --> 01:41:25.150 But there is an argument that when we go to open 01:41:25.150 --> 01:41:31.165 access and we're no longer tethered to the journal, 01:41:31.165 --> 01:41:34.900 the idea of a journal with a certain number of issues, 01:41:34.900 --> 01:41:37.735 the nature of the journal article can change. 01:41:37.735 --> 01:41:41.470 I've seen really reputable scholars talking about 01:41:41.470 --> 01:41:44.140 how you can think about 01:41:44.140 --> 01:41:45.910 journals in the future journal articles 01:41:45.910 --> 01:41:47.470 having like you said, 01:41:47.470 --> 01:41:50.680 that pricey at the beginning that gives the summary, 01:41:50.680 --> 01:41:55.030 and the undergirding is much of the research. 01:41:55.030 --> 01:41:58.120 There's a lot of things that can be done structurally to 01:41:58.120 --> 01:41:59.980 the research article to 01:41:59.980 --> 01:42:02.620 make sure that it reaches multiple audiences. 01:42:02.620 --> 01:42:05.920 We've only touched the surface of that. 01:42:05.920 --> 01:42:09.970 A response. 01:42:09.970 --> 01:42:12.250 I've seen at least a lot of citations that 01:42:12.250 --> 01:42:15.130 I've come across in my field. 01:42:15.130 --> 01:42:18.940 I came across them through newspaper articles. 01:42:18.940 --> 01:42:21.100 A newspaper article that 01:42:21.100 --> 01:42:24.310 cited according to this study in nature, 01:42:24.310 --> 01:42:26.620 this in this climate change will do this and 01:42:26.620 --> 01:42:29.230 this whole tree or whatever. 01:42:29.230 --> 01:42:33.475 Then I go to the nature and looked at that article, 01:42:33.475 --> 01:42:34.690 and then I end up going back to 01:42:34.690 --> 01:42:36.760 the newspaper article because that's what it says. 01:42:36.760 --> 01:42:40.750 [LAUGHTER] That's one way of doing it, 01:42:40.750 --> 01:42:44.860 having newspapers or the break it down 01:42:44.860 --> 01:42:50.000 on layman's term, or simple language. 01:42:50.040 --> 01:42:52.645 Thank you all. This was great. 01:42:52.645 --> 01:42:54.190 Thanks for contributing. 01:42:54.190 --> 01:43:04.330 [APPLAUSE] 01:43:04.330 --> 01:43:05.980 We'll get the slides we'll put them in 01:43:05.980 --> 01:43:08.830 Scholar and no class next Monday. 01:43:08.830 --> 01:43:47.532 [BACKGROUND]