WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:18.500 [Buzz] 00:00:21.180 --> 00:00:35.960 [Music] 00:00:37.060 --> 00:00:42.650 [Robert Braden] For the next few minutes we would like for you to join us for a free ranging 00:00:42.650 --> 00:00:48.080 discussion about educational methods in the United States today and particularly 00:00:48.080 --> 00:00:53.300 about some innovative things that have been and are being done now in college 00:00:53.300 --> 00:00:59.229 instruction. I have with me three educators today, and from your left to right 00:00:59.229 --> 00:01:06.440 we have Dr. Terrell who has done his research with Joe Hill on cognitive style 00:01:06.440 --> 00:01:15.290 mapping and immediately to his left we have Sam Postlethwait who has originated a 00:01:15.290 --> 00:01:20.299 system of learning called audio tutorial instruction, and to my immediate left I 00:01:20.299 --> 00:01:26.390 have Dave Roper, who is one of the pioneers in what we call a personalized system of instruction. 00:01:26.390 --> 00:01:32.750 And with that sort of an introduction I think maybe we just sort 00:01:32.750 --> 00:01:37.189 of like to talk about where we're coming from with some of these kind of things 00:01:37.189 --> 00:01:41.149 and we're going to put a lot of the weight on you Sam because we're 00:01:41.149 --> 00:01:45.680 interested in your philosophy and I'd kind of like to know how does somebody who 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:52.160 comes from Allister Ridge West Virginia get to where he has such an innovative attitude toward learning. 00:01:52.340 --> 00:01:57.200 [Sam Postlethwait] Well maybe it's because that's where I started teaching 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.799 and actually I started teaching in Hickory Knob West Virginia in a one room 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.289 schoolhouse and there we had individualized instruction because I 00:02:06.289 --> 00:02:12.770 only had one student in each class and I think that I learned an awful lot about 00:02:12.770 --> 00:02:20.180 people and about teaching there in that in that situation. I learned to 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:25.940 appreciate they that students are a lot like people and they want to be 00:02:25.940 --> 00:02:31.830 successful and that they like to tell people what they've learned 00:02:31.830 --> 00:02:35.930 and a whole lot of things that I'm finding out as I read some of the 00:02:35.930 --> 00:02:41.610 educational psychologists are fundamentally sound things. 00:02:41.610 --> 00:02:49.530 You were telling me before we got on tape here about a little girl in in that one room 00:02:49.530 --> 00:02:52.770 schoolhouse I think that's a wonderful story would you share that yeah you bet 00:02:52.770 --> 00:02:57.600 I'll never never forget this little girl up I in in this setting I did everything 00:02:57.600 --> 00:03:04.280 just like I had seen done earlier and that is I had a minute and a half for 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:09.270 eighth grade reading and two minutes for a seventh grade spelling actually had 00:03:09.270 --> 00:03:14.460 two students in the seventh grade and that sort of thing and when it came time 00:03:14.460 --> 00:03:19.850 to give out the report cards at the end of the session ended for six weeks 00:03:19.850 --> 00:03:25.460 and then I did this in a very formal way even though I had only 15 students I 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:30.840 walked around and handed them their report card in a very formal way and as 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:37.110 I went back toward the front of the building I felt this tug on my coat and 00:03:37.110 --> 00:03:42.450 it turned around and here was this little blond blue-eyed girl and she had 00:03:42.450 --> 00:03:46.410 a report card and she said look here mister Postlethwait she said I made an A 00:03:46.410 --> 00:03:51.750 well of course I know she'd made an A given it to her but I 00:03:51.750 --> 00:03:57.930 I realized right then how important it is for for people to be successful and 00:03:57.930 --> 00:04:04.920 the the significant thing I think here is that the design of of instruction as 00:04:04.920 --> 00:04:11.610 we've become kind of institutionalized this is not designed for success in fact 00:04:11.610 --> 00:04:22.530 an awful lot of us who teach have become kind of all oriented to and concerned 00:04:22.530 --> 00:04:25.980 about how many people would fail and more concerned about how many people we 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:31.440 fail then how many students are successful here and some of our are 00:04:31.440 --> 00:04:35.140 really good friends tend to 00:04:35.140 --> 00:04:41.770 to design their instruction around the numbers that they expect to fail and I 00:04:41.770 --> 00:04:46.750 think they the Keller plan I think the audio tutorial system and I I think the 00:04:46.750 --> 00:04:52.540 the cognitive style all of these things are to ask a different question how do 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:59.500 we help people become successful learners rather than how do we have a 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:06.100 certain percentage of failures well that's so one of the things I when I 00:05:06.100 --> 00:05:10.360 tell people about psi is the biggest reward we talk about rewarding people in 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:14.350 PSI the biggest reward is a success that someone has the fact that you recognize 00:05:14.350 --> 00:05:18.670 that success and they recognize it and they're just no bigger reward than 00:05:18.670 --> 00:05:23.530 success itself yes and then the striking thing the interesting thing to me is 00:05:23.530 --> 00:05:29.440 that my first encounter with that was back in a little country 00:05:29.440 --> 00:05:34.570 school as a as a teacher 18 years old teaching some fifteen students. Well if you 00:05:34.570 --> 00:05:37.660 really think about it though your first encounter was probably back in your own youth. 00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:41.770 I suppose. I think all of us thought about it that would be the case 00:05:41.770 --> 00:05:51.730 yeah well would you kind of react to that success line as an underlying sort of thing? 00:05:51.730 --> 00:05:57.660 Well I think the thing that I'm pulling out of this is Sam & Dave's 00:05:57.660 --> 00:06:02.800 attitude toward the learner as being very positive and in cognitive style 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:07.810 we're trying really find out more about the learner as an individual and we're 00:06:07.810 --> 00:06:12.670 nowhere nearly as accomplished as these gentlemen and their systems that they're 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:20.590 talking about and so we're still looking for how to to get this information but 00:06:20.590 --> 00:06:25.900 in the cognitive style methodology they employ elements of both audio tutorial 00:06:25.900 --> 00:06:31.480 and PSI and many other systems and the real distinction is the fact that we're 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:37.630 trying to devise tests and measurements to get at who is the student what are 00:06:37.630 --> 00:06:44.110 their characteristics and hopefully help Sam and help Dave as they relate to 00:06:44.110 --> 00:06:48.330 their classes and through knowing more about their students can design better instruction. 00:06:48.330 --> 00:06:53.330 You bring up a good point there about about the doing it 00:06:53.330 --> 00:06:59.069 anything and then I again I like come back to you see him on this the 00:06:59.069 --> 00:07:04.289 philosophy is good you know and your students are a lot like people and I 00:07:04.289 --> 00:07:09.680 enjoyed the article you wrote that had that title but 00:07:09.979 --> 00:07:14.069 would you share with us a little bit about how you sort of put this into 00:07:14.069 --> 00:07:20.819 practice the nuts and bolts of making this kind of thing work in other words 00:07:20.819 --> 00:07:24.750 it I mean you you have your system and it's well known what I think some of 00:07:24.750 --> 00:07:29.909 your own expression of how it works would help. Well if we ask what is the 00:07:29.909 --> 00:07:33.599 fundamental issue or what is a fundamental question what is a 00:07:33.599 --> 00:07:39.870 fundamental problem if indeed we want students to be successful we have to to 00:07:39.870 --> 00:07:45.860 look at how they become successful learners. Most of us accept the 00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:51.539 definition of learning as a change, a change that is brought about in the learner. 00:07:51.539 --> 00:07:56.460 The learner is now able to do something they they were not able to do 00:07:56.460 --> 00:08:02.430 before and so we're asking the question how can we bring about this change in 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:08.550 the learner now if indeed the change is to be brought about in the learner then 00:08:08.550 --> 00:08:13.289 the learner must be involved in the process and so where do we start 00:08:13.289 --> 00:08:17.969 designing instruction we start designing instruction around involvement of the 00:08:17.969 --> 00:08:25.770 learner not around the delivery of information most of us who teach tend to 00:08:25.770 --> 00:08:31.110 think in terms of how we deliver information rather than how do we get a 00:08:31.110 --> 00:08:36.360 learner involved with activities or the design of activities that will cause 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.860 this learner now to know things that they didn't know before or to be able to 00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:43.380 do things that they weren't able to do before 00:08:43.380 --> 00:08:49.440 and by your analysis then of the learner so that you can look at the learner and 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:54.209 say the learner is able to do these kinds of things one then ought to be 00:08:54.209 --> 00:08:59.329 able to to better design learning activities to accomplish or achieve 00:08:59.329 --> 00:09:05.829 certain ends or our goals here and so we're saying then 00:09:05.829 --> 00:09:11.680 that we're starting at quite the opposite end of the spectrum the the I 00:09:11.680 --> 00:09:14.769 don't know whether it's unfortunate or not but it but the unfortunate thing it 00:09:14.769 --> 00:09:22.420 seems to me is that that indeed human beings do learn vicariously and when 00:09:22.420 --> 00:09:30.029 information is delivered to a human being human being will will identify 00:09:30.029 --> 00:09:35.410 with this from their past history and consequently experience things by 00:09:35.410 --> 00:09:40.990 curiously and consequently learn and so we've built on that and built on that 00:09:40.990 --> 00:09:46.420 until we've gotten so far away from the fundamental issue that we really don't 00:09:46.420 --> 00:09:53.110 get back and say all right I'm going to to help people learn botany I need them 00:09:53.110 --> 00:09:58.480 to define botany what is botany what are the things that I expect my students to 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.550 achieve having identified these clearly and laid them out so that other people 00:10:03.550 --> 00:10:11.199 can look at them and see that these are appropriate proper then I can look 00:10:11.199 --> 00:10:17.139 critically and carefully at the at the activities the experience is you know in 00:10:17.139 --> 00:10:21.579 the early days of audio tutorial I used to call it an integrated and experienced 00:10:21.579 --> 00:10:26.529 approach to teaching botany and I wish I never had changed the name in fact I 00:10:26.529 --> 00:10:29.410 wrote a little book just it was kind of a little booklet called 00:10:29.410 --> 00:10:33.730 integrated experience approach to to learning botany 00:10:33.730 --> 00:10:43.000 well that I think expresses much better than audio tutorial the concept of what 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.519 we're talking about but as I begin talking about integrated experience 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:55.720 approach to to learning botany many of my colleagues felt so threatened by the 00:10:55.720 --> 00:11:00.660 fact that students would be learning by themselves and what they were doing that 00:11:00.660 --> 00:11:07.629 in kind of self defense I came up with well I do believe that the most 00:11:07.629 --> 00:11:12.339 important single factor in a learning system is is a teacher I think their 00:11:12.339 --> 00:11:16.330 teacher is very important and to try to emphasize that I felt the 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:23.050 teacher was important I said well maybe my colleagues will be pleased with the 00:11:23.050 --> 00:11:31.810 idea of tutoring so I used the term tutoring and and audio it was simply to 00:11:31.810 --> 00:11:41.980 convey the connotation of storing the tutor in a vehicle so that that tutor 00:11:41.980 --> 00:11:49.120 could be retrieved at the demand a few plays of the student or whomever might 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:55.870 need them need this this information you make this distinction and I'm going to 00:11:55.870 --> 00:12:01.300 pursue it a little if I can with you about the delivery of instruction and if 00:12:01.300 --> 00:12:07.810 I can put one word on it the design of instruction and I think maybe I'd like 00:12:07.810 --> 00:12:11.140 for each of you to respond to the kind of question that I would have about that 00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:17.740 which is how do you see these two rules are they are they compatible and which 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:24.640 is more important you know and I think maybe that each of us ought to explore 00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:29.380 that kind of a question well if money must be done by the learner then the 00:12:29.380 --> 00:12:33.280 design of the instruction ought to involve the learner in the process now 00:12:33.280 --> 00:12:37.420 that that's not very profound but it's but it just seems to me that that that 00:12:37.420 --> 00:12:46.690 that follows here I'm saying again that delivery of information may be a part of 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:52.480 involving people in the learning process and people can sit and be involved by 00:12:52.480 --> 00:13:00.580 hearing information delivered so that you see means that there that a lecture 00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:06.430 can be okay and it can can be right here but most of 00:13:06.430 --> 00:13:13.290 us who are in the profession of Education have become so accustomed to 00:13:13.290 --> 00:13:20.050 education as being a delivery process we don't ask these other questions so much 00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:25.779 so that and just to emphasize my point No 00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:29.920 I've teaching assistance and bless their hearts they are the people who make me 00:13:29.920 --> 00:13:34.360 or break me and I appreciate him very very much because they work hard for me 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:41.199 I really appreciate him occasionally I get one who comes to my Learning Center 00:13:41.199 --> 00:13:45.970 and to participate in my program because he says he wants to learn how to teach 00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:49.449 all right I put him in a Learning Center where 00:13:49.449 --> 00:13:55.239 students are constantly coming to him and saying I don't understand this or I 00:13:55.239 --> 00:13:59.139 don't understand this it isn't very long until that that 00:13:59.139 --> 00:14:05.079 instructor comes to me and says look I came to you because I wanted to learn 00:14:05.079 --> 00:14:09.100 how to teach and all I'm doing it's just helping these students who are in 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:14.889 trouble we don't understand well I'm saying to that person you don't 00:14:14.889 --> 00:14:20.920 understand either sick people are those who need a doctor 00:14:20.920 --> 00:14:27.009 not people who are well and by the same token people who don't know or don't 00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:30.669 understand are the people who need teachers those people who know and 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:34.989 understand are the people who need teachers now not think with me here this 00:14:34.989 --> 00:14:41.169 person who came to learn how to teach believed I'm sure that teaching was to 00:14:41.169 --> 00:14:47.410 learn how to deliver information better yeah well I'm saying that on this 00:14:47.410 --> 00:14:52.509 one-to-one kind of arrangement that he has in the learning center this is a 00:14:52.509 --> 00:15:00.489 good opportunity for that person to then talk with an individual bring in new 00:15:00.489 --> 00:15:07.569 materials to test your creativity and skill in helping that person learn now 00:15:07.569 --> 00:15:13.389 the thing that you have always is the student who is I don't know how shall I 00:15:13.389 --> 00:15:20.499 put this delicately here but the person who doesn't learn fast and so indeed all 00:15:20.499 --> 00:15:24.339 day long somebody in the learning center will be dealing with the person who's 00:15:24.339 --> 00:15:30.839 having a little more difficulty understanding and consequently that 00:15:30.839 --> 00:15:38.230 doesn't give you the same feeling of success I guess as a teacher and so what 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:42.940 happens is you having spent two hours or three 00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:47.379 hours doing this you feel a bit of frustration because you know the subject 00:15:47.379 --> 00:15:53.079 matter well and the people whom you're trying to help really don't know the 00:15:53.079 --> 00:15:58.209 subject matter that well and you've done your best explanation they still don't 00:15:58.209 --> 00:16:02.730 know it and since it's a one-to-one situation the light doesn't light up and 00:16:02.730 --> 00:16:07.120 and you realize that you have been a failure as a teacher because you're face 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:11.259 to face with this in a big General Assembly Hall or even in a smaller 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:16.930 setting where you have only 20 students indeed you can make a presentation and 00:16:16.930 --> 00:16:21.839 you'll see some lights light up there and you know you'll feel successful 00:16:21.839 --> 00:16:31.509 whereas the system now selects out those people who needs help and you I'm not 00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:37.240 sure that I pinned you down on design versus delivery but I'm gonna ask Dave 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:42.399 to comment on on the concept of the two and and where he sees the faculty member 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.170 fitting in well I would begin where Sam started with that you're there to try to 00:16:47.170 --> 00:16:51.970 help people learn and so what you want to do is provide everything that you can 00:16:51.970 --> 00:16:56.560 think of that will make it easy for them now some students will want some type of 00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:00.550 thing some students one another some will need lectures and some won't some 00:17:00.550 --> 00:17:05.530 need textbooks and some don't need them as badly as others or don't use them as 00:17:05.530 --> 00:17:11.319 much so my philosophy basically is that I try to provide everything I can get a 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.189 hold up for the students or it's a proliferation of options you might call 00:17:15.189 --> 00:17:20.770 it and so when I sit down the design of course that I will deliver in various 00:17:20.770 --> 00:17:24.850 ways then I have that that in mind I try to use everything I can so that's the 00:17:24.850 --> 00:17:30.070 reason I I use textbooks I give a few lectures I put lectures on videotapes I 00:17:30.070 --> 00:17:36.340 use film loops I use computer terminals with physics simulations on the computer 00:17:36.340 --> 00:17:40.030 terminals since I'm the physics department and I will use micro 00:17:40.030 --> 00:17:44.500 computers when I can get the department to buy me one in fact I will use I hope 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:48.070 I think I can use the micro computers to help me integrate all these things 00:17:48.070 --> 00:17:52.630 eventually so that's delivery then it's just a 00:17:52.630 --> 00:17:54.549 matter of to put all these things together and 00:17:54.549 --> 00:17:57.639 make them available to students in the way that's best for them that's a 00:17:57.639 --> 00:18:01.330 difficult job because every student theoretically every student would need 00:18:01.330 --> 00:18:06.220 some different combination than others and it requires a lot of organization a 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:10.480 lot of hard work and it gets tiring sometimes after two or three years of it 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:19.359 you think well I think I'll just go back to luxury it's a lot easier a good 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.700 springboard for what I expect maybe bill would have to say on this topic I just 00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:28.809 love hearing these guys because both Sam and Dave were saying things that I 00:18:28.809 --> 00:18:37.570 really approve of but I find myself asking related but a little bit 00:18:37.570 --> 00:18:42.580 different questions and my professional experience has always been the fact that 00:18:42.580 --> 00:18:46.320 people would come to me and say what's the best media to use for something and 00:18:46.320 --> 00:18:51.009 it always puzzled me you know because I didn't have a good answer for them some 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:55.840 things because they required motion seemed to require a film or television 00:18:55.840 --> 00:19:01.779 other things because they needed sound required a an audio tape but I really 00:19:01.779 --> 00:19:04.749 didn't have beyond that a good blanket answer to people other than the fact 00:19:04.749 --> 00:19:10.029 well it's easier for you to use it I've got into this notion through Joe 00:19:10.029 --> 00:19:16.269 Hill of Oakland Community College who is no no longer with us but John was 00:19:16.269 --> 00:19:21.220 working with educational cognitive style and it rang a real bell with me because 00:19:21.220 --> 00:19:24.549 now all of a sudden I had some good answers for people because we talked 00:19:24.549 --> 00:19:29.559 about including the student in the design of instruction in the realist 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:34.749 sense Dave you may be an inductive learner in Sam a deductive and Roberts 00:19:34.749 --> 00:19:38.649 he may like to learn by himself and the other two in small groups may be myself 00:19:38.649 --> 00:19:44.739 in a large lecture hall there are lots and lots of variables that make up the 00:19:44.739 --> 00:19:48.879 characteristics of the individual that's how we're talking about is measuring 00:19:48.879 --> 00:19:54.159 those variables and then turning to the person designing instruction helping 00:19:54.159 --> 00:19:59.379 them by knowing the student better to actually decide no we're not going to 00:19:59.379 --> 00:20:03.230 use just audio tapes or a slide tape or a film strip or a 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:09.380 a videotape in fact we may find that between a videotape and the site tape is 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:12.830 very little different maybe there's more difference between two videotapes 00:20:12.830 --> 00:20:20.150 because of the intrinsic qualities that relate to the student and we I wish we 00:20:20.150 --> 00:20:23.210 could say we've got the answer to all that but right now we're I've been 00:20:23.210 --> 00:20:26.080 working about five years trying to design a test for upper division 00:20:26.080 --> 00:20:30.740 University students which would pull those variables own I got some 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:37.520 significant differences just recently but nothing yet to report is great and 00:20:37.520 --> 00:20:41.630 until these researchers come up with something that will help you pick your 00:20:41.630 --> 00:20:48.500 students for the right mini course and that sort of thing I suppose you're 00:20:48.500 --> 00:20:54.530 probably going to keep on revising and and and building many courses the term 00:20:54.530 --> 00:20:58.820 you use it yes we we talk about many courses and course that's my those are 00:20:58.820 --> 00:21:08.540 really just modules which is the best term directly yeah but important here it 00:21:08.540 --> 00:21:16.840 seems to me is again that the vehicles were talking about videotape movies 00:21:16.840 --> 00:21:28.250 textbooks or whatever are only quality if indeed the person who did them with 00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:33.200 put things in there that made them quality are you talking about content 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.540 I'm talking no not only about content I'm talking about instructional design 00:21:38.540 --> 00:21:42.080 as well some people can write in such a way that you can understand what they're 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:47.390 saying other people including I'm not going to mention them so there are 00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:50.929 people who write so that you can't understand what they're what they're 00:21:50.929 --> 00:21:56.240 saying and most of us who write textbooks write for colleagues and not 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:02.360 for the students who are to understand these so I'm again content is important 00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:09.110 but it's only one aspect of of communication and video tape is its 00:22:09.110 --> 00:22:15.130 quality is dependent on what is done in front of the camera and the quality 00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:21.460 are the the technicians that operate the the camera so videotape is nothing in 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:27.550 and of itself it's a series of images and audio that is stored so that you can 00:22:27.550 --> 00:22:32.880 retrieve it whenever you want and so I think we have to get to get our concept 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:39.220 right here what we're doing is trying to store a human being in such a way that 00:22:39.220 --> 00:22:45.790 that human being can be retrieved and you see there are good books and they're 00:22:45.790 --> 00:22:50.470 bad books there are good lectures and there are bad lectures and we tend to 00:22:50.470 --> 00:22:56.530 lump them all together and somebody's get sewn up if the drum you know and 00:22:56.530 --> 00:23:02.620 beats the drum for saying that lectures are all bad that isn't so because you're 00:23:02.620 --> 00:23:08.260 a good lecturer makes something that's really worthwhile for for many people 00:23:08.260 --> 00:23:16.330 and you know I don't know what this does bill in terms of looking at the learning 00:23:16.330 --> 00:23:21.940 styles are a couple of things that that I think are of concern here one is that 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:27.400 suppose you find out that the learning style is better through a lecture for 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:34.740 somebody then indeed we've got to assume that all lectures are the same quality 00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:39.880 you're which which we can't assume and if you have a bad lecture it may be that 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:44.050 a good textbook is much better than than a bad lecture 00:23:44.050 --> 00:23:52.540 I also need wonder sometimes if indeed I learned better from a textbook if I 00:23:52.540 --> 00:23:59.340 might ought to train myself to live in this world by learning from a videotape 00:23:59.340 --> 00:24:06.070 sometimes that that I I really ought to avail myself of a number of different 00:24:06.070 --> 00:24:14.200 kinds of learning experiences rather than a single one is raising you're 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:18.820 raising a good point that I did not make because we fully recognize that that 00:24:18.820 --> 00:24:24.130 when we want people to learn we may play on their strengths so that they will 00:24:24.130 --> 00:24:27.530 learn X amount of remain now the other hand we also recognize 00:24:27.530 --> 00:24:32.120 that sometimes necessary to augment a person's learning style so that in fact 00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:37.490 if you are weak on reading maybe we ought to be few up there I know the 00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:42.860 dimensions that that the notions that I'm talking about add to let's say your 00:24:42.860 --> 00:24:46.820 possibilities if you're let's say shopping around trying to buy a set of 00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:49.580 materials recognizing the fact that there are deductive and inductive 00:24:49.580 --> 00:24:54.110 materials recognizing that there are learners who prefer to read others who 00:24:54.110 --> 00:25:00.650 prefer to listen etcetera would then help you perceive the world of materials 00:25:00.650 --> 00:25:04.930 in a different light rather than going out and buying a film strip or a 00:25:04.930 --> 00:25:08.660 videotape or somebody just some thinking that's different because there may not 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:13.720 in fact be intrinsic qualities that are different between the pieces of material 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:18.230 we're also getting into another notion and that is of preferences as opposed to 00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:22.670 capabilities yeah on the KE let's say through junior college system we're 00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:26.360 talking about is the learner capable when we get into the university system 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:31.550 hopefully we're not always quite so sure about this anymore everybody that's in 00:25:31.550 --> 00:25:35.390 the university is a fairly capable learner and the farther up they go in 00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:37.570 the system the more capable they should be 00:25:37.570 --> 00:25:42.620 therefore we begin to talk about well how would they prefer to live learn with 00:25:42.620 --> 00:25:47.480 the notion being that if I can associate the learning that I intend for them to 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:52.910 have with a pleasant environment that is a learning environment then there are 00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:57.170 their attitude about that material will be much more positive they're more 00:25:57.170 --> 00:26:01.130 likely to believe what I say they're more likely to go out and practice what 00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:05.900 I say and that seems to me to be of something of value you're all set up the 00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:12.110 whole humanistic thing that's involved here and I wanted to get to that and 00:26:12.110 --> 00:26:16.100 then actually I want to get to from the other side which was to ask that out of 00:26:16.100 --> 00:26:21.170 a flat-out question how do you respond to those people who say to you you've 00:26:21.170 --> 00:26:26.840 devised this the system and I think that it does violence to humanistic concerns 00:26:26.840 --> 00:26:32.060 or some such question yeah you get that question very often and I think they 00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:36.230 just don't understand what what they're talking about they haven't looked at the 00:26:36.230 --> 00:26:39.879 system they haven't seeing that that indeed in the design of 00:26:39.879 --> 00:26:43.929 our instructional system we want to provide students an opportunity to 00:26:43.929 --> 00:26:49.269 interact with one another in it and this this does occur on the other hand we do 00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:54.580 find that some students don't want to interact with other students and and we 00:26:54.580 --> 00:27:02.320 do provide that we allow the student to be their own or we assume that they're 00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:07.359 mature and if indeed they are paying their money to go to college they will 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:12.070 want to carry away from college all the information but I'm saying this with 00:27:12.070 --> 00:27:19.149 tongue-in-cheek that they're all that they want and they want to get want to 00:27:19.149 --> 00:27:24.759 get their their money's worth but audio tutorial in no way leaves out the human 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:31.899 aspect learning as a human to human phenomenon and and and we see it all of 00:27:31.899 --> 00:27:39.099 the time and all of us are standing on the shoulders of the people who came 00:27:39.099 --> 00:27:47.340 before us and and again isn't it a marvelous trait that human beings can 00:27:47.669 --> 00:27:52.450 take the information that is accumulated and start from there and go from there 00:27:52.450 --> 00:27:58.059 otherwise the progress we we have no no progress and so it is a human the human 00:27:58.059 --> 00:28:04.330 thing and we still have our big ol lecture where I go in there and just 00:28:04.330 --> 00:28:12.039 smile and smile all I know how to say I love botany and and I think plants are 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:22.029 fantastic don't you shake your head yes so indeed I also try to memorize the 00:28:22.029 --> 00:28:27.999 names of my students so that I can call them by name I'm not not that successful 00:28:27.999 --> 00:28:34.479 as I'd like to be with this but we start with it and and really work at it Dave 00:28:34.479 --> 00:28:40.090 do you do you get any vibrations on the humanistic question yeah as a matter of 00:28:40.090 --> 00:28:46.119 fact quite often I tell my friends who do nothing but lecture that I have more 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:50.059 contact with my students than they do do they believe you 00:28:50.059 --> 00:28:54.950 well they didn't they seem to not believe me but I then asked them to come 00:28:54.950 --> 00:28:59.200 in and view for themselves I think you've been there you know it's the case 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:05.330 you know you deal with them personally you don't deal with some on mass and to 00:29:05.330 --> 00:29:09.830 me that's much more humanistic than dealing with 220 students or 40 students 00:29:09.830 --> 00:29:14.359 even with 120 students in a PSI course you still can deal with each one 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:20.479 personally once or twice during the term whereas you may only deal with 10 15 or 00:29:20.479 --> 00:29:25.129 20 and a regular lunch of course now I'm not saying they shouldn't lecture and I 00:29:25.129 --> 00:29:29.269 agree with what Sam said a while ago that sometimes lecturing is an excellent 00:29:29.269 --> 00:29:32.779 way to get across material I can remember two lectures I had to my 00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:37.549 education that were terrific you know I wouldn't have wanted them to teach in 00:29:37.549 --> 00:29:42.409 any other way and then that particular way and but others I would have wished 00:29:42.409 --> 00:29:45.440 if they had done something else and so I think it's not only the way the student 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:50.239 learns but it's also the way a professor can get the material across one 00:29:50.239 --> 00:29:53.450 professor may not be able to get it across so well in lectures but he may do 00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:57.139 a beautiful job with something some other way of doing it 00:29:57.139 --> 00:30:01.249 and so I think yeah it's a you have to factor both sides it's the humanistic 00:30:01.249 --> 00:30:04.159 thing again because you've got humans in different with humans and you got to 00:30:04.159 --> 00:30:07.549 then take all the factors involved in all those humans including including the 00:30:07.549 --> 00:30:11.210 people that are designing the system and trying to do the delivery so it's a 00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:15.109 complicated problem and I'm not saying about your possibilities of putting it 00:30:15.109 --> 00:30:18.769 all down on paper and saying these are the rules that everybody abide button 00:30:18.769 --> 00:30:24.529 because I don't think it's that easy but it's but it's significant that you said 00:30:24.529 --> 00:30:29.869 you had two lectures here I do think of the group that one undergraduate one 00:30:29.869 --> 00:30:33.919 graduate school and your contact now with your students is a much more 00:30:33.919 --> 00:30:41.239 meaningful contact and then coming back to Bill's point here we have made an 00:30:41.239 --> 00:30:48.379 assumption that a an exchange between a professor and a student is going to be a 00:30:48.379 --> 00:30:56.389 pleasant exchange that is an assumption students we professors have 00:30:56.389 --> 00:31:01.610 personalities do that the conflict with with the students personality 00:31:01.610 --> 00:31:08.870 and we may any contact that I have in a very direct way may be negative rather 00:31:08.870 --> 00:31:13.850 than than positive some of these Dan's death of you Thanks it would learn much 00:31:13.850 --> 00:31:18.350 better from up here and and in that in that situation what we've created is 00:31:18.350 --> 00:31:24.620 more tension anxiety and and not really had a pleasant exchange in that 00:31:24.620 --> 00:31:30.860 situation however with that student that student might identify in a large 00:31:30.860 --> 00:31:41.299 lecture hall and and feel more at ease and and learned to know a professor all 00:31:41.299 --> 00:31:46.220 right we almost back to the success thing that we started with yeah well in 00:31:46.220 --> 00:31:51.320 in a sense you're talking about the large lecture hall maybe the most 00:31:51.320 --> 00:31:54.970 successful students there are the ones who went to the faculty members office 00:31:54.970 --> 00:31:59.809 and there he had one-to-one contact with the faculty that was what he needed he 00:31:59.809 --> 00:32:04.490 was self selecting his own learning style and the other might have gotten a 00:32:04.490 --> 00:32:08.780 better learning situation out of meeting with her colleagues for a coffee after 00:32:08.780 --> 00:32:11.960 class and some of them just didn't do anything at all and they were the ones 00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:19.309 who who fell by the wayside well most of us feel like we are good lecturers I 00:32:19.309 --> 00:32:26.630 think that nearly every teacher that I encounter feels that they have something 00:32:26.630 --> 00:32:32.840 special to give students in in a lecture hall that nobody else can give it in 00:32:32.840 --> 00:32:39.290 quite the quite the same way so there's a little delusion there I think on the 00:32:39.290 --> 00:32:44.990 part of some of us who lectured but also on the part of some students too because 00:32:44.990 --> 00:32:49.460 they've been conditioned for many many years and now Dave what yours a 00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:54.020 three-hour course therefore it's a three hour course three-hour course now when 00:32:54.020 --> 00:32:59.600 you think of trying to have impact on somebody's life with the three hour 00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:05.450 credit course and they have a whole history of I don't know how many years 00:33:05.450 --> 00:33:13.040 here of previous exposure to a system which they quaint with education or 00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:17.840 learning and you're going counter to this then you ought to expect 00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:24.279 I think that you would have some negative reactions by those students and 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:33.350 that to have much impact on the way they learn in just taking that little segment 00:33:33.350 --> 00:33:39.049 of their lives is asking an awful lot of the instructional design and of the 00:33:39.049 --> 00:33:44.090 instructor as well what surprising thing to me has been the small amount of 00:33:44.090 --> 00:33:48.350 negative reaction there is I would have thought there would be more because as 00:33:48.350 --> 00:33:52.639 you say they're so used to the other type of teaching all the sudden you're 00:33:52.639 --> 00:33:55.429 hitting them with something new here and their senior year they've never seen 00:33:55.429 --> 00:34:01.460 them before but you get negative reactions when it comes to grading or 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:05.269 the level of difficulty and I think maybe that's something that the people 00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:09.139 who watch programs like this I don't know is that it isn't easier oh now I do 00:34:09.139 --> 00:34:12.889 your kind of thing or do Sam's kind of thing it's harder on the professor and 00:34:12.889 --> 00:34:16.639 it's harder on the student I think both because the Stute you design the system 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:22.099 for mastery your high level of mastery as you can as you can maintain and the 00:34:22.099 --> 00:34:26.059 normal extra courses are really not designed for masters right and so when 00:34:26.059 --> 00:34:28.730 you're going to require the master it means they have to work like the devil 00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:33.770 and you know people don't like to work that's one negative aspect of the system 00:34:33.770 --> 00:34:37.220 is that people don't like to work the positive aspect is when they do it and 00:34:37.220 --> 00:34:39.740 they they have a success that's wonderful and they're totally they're 00:34:39.740 --> 00:34:43.879 great that's wonderful too but the fact that they had to work so hard to do it 00:34:43.879 --> 00:34:46.579 is negative but you can't get around it if you're going to accomplish something 00:34:46.579 --> 00:34:51.889 you have to work you see that is something that a lot of students don't 00:34:51.889 --> 00:34:57.319 understand and even our whole instructional system is designed around 00:34:57.319 --> 00:35:04.369 a curve type grading which suggests to students that all is relative to and 00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:08.720 that you can have know something and if you have know it that might be an a in 00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:13.309 some courses and and here we are coming in now with a with a whole different 00:35:13.309 --> 00:35:17.240 concept saying no you're not going to have to know you're going to whole know 00:35:17.240 --> 00:35:21.290 you're going to know it all and you need to know it a hundred percent or you 00:35:21.290 --> 00:35:28.160 don't pass this well of of all of the things that I'm criticized in my course 00:35:28.160 --> 00:35:31.760 by my students that is the one thing that that I get my 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.220 lowest rating on it and that is unfairness of grading because they 00:35:37.220 --> 00:35:47.900 consider it not fair to have to know subject matter maybe we can sort of 00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:51.350 terminated all that because that's a provocative thought to carry us forward 00:35:51.350 --> 00:35:56.450 and I certainly thank all the participants here today bill Terrell 00:35:56.450 --> 00:36:02.170 samples the way and Dave Roper thank you very much