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Good morning. I'm Gary Morrison. I'm here with

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David Merrill. His book, First Principles of Instruction was

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just published. It's a synthesis of his ideas.

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For the last 50 years. Today we're gonna be

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talking about some of those ideas. Dave could you

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provide us an overview of who you are, where

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you've lived and the type of work you're currently doing

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? Yeah, I can do that. I live

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in ST George Utah, I retired from uh marriage

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professor at Utah State University, but I live on

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the other end of the state from where they are

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. Uh, I lost the manual on retirement so

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I continued to do things. I've teaching classes online

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. I've talked recently at the University of Hawaii at

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Utah State University a little earlier than that at florida

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State University. Uh, obviously spent a little time

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writing since I just finished this major textbook. So

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that's basically who I am. I guess the other

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important part of my life is that I'm married.

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I between my wife and I, we have nine

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Children and 44 grandchildren and six great grandchildren. Those

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the most important accomplishment in my life. So I

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know your work with the earth. It's followed several

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paths, but there's been themes running through it.

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What would you say your primary focus is none of

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your research? Well, I think my primary focus

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is has always been the question, although the question

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recently formulated. But the question really, how do

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you make instruction effective, efficient and engaging. That's

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that I started out and maybe a little story here

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would help. I, I got interested in education

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when I was a missionary for the mormon church and

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we used to go door to door and talk to

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people about the church. And I've said many times

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the church has to be true because the missionaries killed

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it a long time ago if it wasn't because the

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direction was so bad. And uh, I got

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interested at that point in time that there must be

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a better way to do this. And so I

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decided to major in, in secondary education and learn

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how to teach and I have to confess without telling

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what school I went to that the courses I had

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for some of the worst I ever had. I

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couldn't believe it. Nobody talked about the question I

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had about how to make it really work. I

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learned all kinds of other things about public education,

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but not how not how to really teach it effectively

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. And uh, so I was about ready to

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give up and I talked to one of my professors

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, Jason Woodruff and I said, I, this

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is not the right field for me, I get

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to do something else. And he said, no

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, you can do that or you could decide to

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go get a graduate degree and make a difference in

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the field. And I said well you know I

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don't want to go through the usual uh you know

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get a get administrative degree and go be a principle

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for a while and then finally go back to school

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after 10 years. And he said no no no

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no no. He said right now there's N.

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D. E. A. Fellowships available. This

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was in 1960. He said there's NBA fellowships available

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and uh you could probably funded to go to school

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and here's some schools you might apply to. So

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not being one to run away from a challenge.

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I said okay I'll do that. And so I

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applied and got accepted. I accepted the position of

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the University of Illinois and Champagne or ban it because

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they offered me the most money. The absolute long

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reason to accept a graduate degree. But it turned

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out very re serendipitously the wonderful professors there. And

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so yeah and I'm sorry this story is a little

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bit long but it answers your question and probably answer

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some of the others we have here today. But

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as I got ready to go to grad school I

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got accepted. I was very excited about going to

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school. I went to check with the registrar I

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see if I was going to graduate, okay.

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And they said oh no You're short two hours of

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math credit because I have had an engineering degree early

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on. So I had a math minor and it's

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like major and I said Oh my God I haven't

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had mathematics for four years, what what am I

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gonna do, you know? So I tried to

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find an online course. There wasn't any of those

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days. Of course I tried to find a home

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study course. There wasn't any of those days that

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I can find all the courses in mathematics looked extremely

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difficult. And I finally found of course I went

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to the bookstore and found this little books only 96

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pages long run by a guy named Li Bai.

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And the book was called are the of course of

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course was called uh a Math Math theory. I

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think something like that. Anyway I said well maybe

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I can take this course. I went to course

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seven students in the course. The professor stood up

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, elected the whole time. The end of the

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first luxury said think about it. Is it?

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How do you think about mathematics? I've always had

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homework to do in mathematics. I said okay I

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want to read the book again. It made no

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sense. Whatever next lecture, same thing. He's

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lectures for the whole hour and a half or whatever

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it was and says think about it. I said

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oh my gosh, after about four or five lectures

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I still have no clue what's going on in this

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class and I have no idea how we're gonna be

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graded or what's going to happen. But we haven't

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done anything except thinking and I didn't even do that

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, I just read the book again. And so

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I finally got the midterm exam and he got a

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blue book and he had one question, he wrote

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it on the board, invent a number system and

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I said what, I have no idea how to

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invent the number says, but true form. I

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filled up the whole blue book uh picked it up

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a couple of days later and it's a great read

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out in front of it. And the only thing

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that gave me any cause for confidence at all was

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that there were seven F's. Every single student in

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the class got an exercise. I'm not the dumbest

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at least not indeed. Um anybody else. Uh

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So now I'm getting really worried because my whole graduate

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career is going down the tube on this command to

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think about it. You know, like what am

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I gonna do? The weeks are cutting down there

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, I have it, this is the summer.

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So I had about three or four weeks left.

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Finally about toward the very end this semester. It

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just kind of clicked. I said, oh my

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gosh number systems are artificial, they're they're an invention

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, they're not real, they're just some logical system

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. It could be a lot of different things and

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all of a sudden sort of said, well I

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wonder if you've got read the book again and start

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to make a little more sense. So finally he

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got to the final exam and I thought okay,

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either I got it or I don't and of course

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obviously the final exam in exact same question, think

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about it. You know, I said, I

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mean or no, right, I didn't get a

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number system, that was the final exam. So

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I said oh my gosh. I said okay let

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there be an oar and a rubber boot. And

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I went on to describe a two element number system

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like zeros and ones, but I used an orange

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rubber boot instead of zeros and ones and brutal pictures

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instead of writing stuff and I thought he was gonna

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get a great laugh out and I'm gonna go sell

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insurance or he's gonna think I've got it, that's

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up. Anyway, I'm sorry for the link that

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story, but it's important to answer your question.

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And so I went on to grad school that never

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again math is done I never have to do that

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again. Now I'm going to fast forward about a

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year. I'm having a terrible time in graduate school

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because they got the same problem that I had an

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undergraduate. Nobody's talking about what I wanted to talk

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about. I'm down in the basement of the site

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building running rats for crying out loud. And I

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said that's not what I wanted to come to grad

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school that was run rats. I want to learn

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how to teach. This is driving me crazy.

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Well b. F Skinner came to the campus about

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that time and of course we all went to hear

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him and I was way up in the back somewhere

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and I don't remember much what he talked about but

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I do remember two things at the end in the

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question period. Somebody said dr Skinner in your book

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. So and so he's a blah blah blah.

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And tonight he said blah blah blah. And I

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think there's a big disagreement between those two and Skinner

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said hell, you think I believe everything I ever

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wrote? Well that was a great revelation to me

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. I said oh my gosh, here's this great

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man who's saying he changed his mind. And up

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until then I came from a little town. I

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figured if you wrote it it was true, uh

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certainly. And of course that's definitely not true.

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But that was kind of the first revelation. The

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second thing he said changed my career and is the

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answer to your question or will lead to the answer

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your question. He said, all I've tried to

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do is make a very few assumptions and see how

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much of human learning we can explain with very few

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assumptions. And I said to myself, oh my

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gosh, psychology is nothing but an order rubber boot

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. It's an invention. Uh you know, and

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so I went back to grad school with great enthusiasm

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. The rest of my graduate career was exciting because

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all I did was try to figure out what the

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order rubber boots that these people are dealing with,

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what was the assumptions they were making and how did

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their theories work. And so I really got very

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excited about theory. And uh, and I didn't

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agree with him anymore. I didn't try to agree

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them. I said they were all artificial anyway,

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it doesn't matter. But it became fun and I

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did okay. And I ended up with a PhD

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. And so at age 27 I'm standing there saying

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, I don't know anything and I have a PhD

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you know what to do, okay, we fast

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forward a few years and I had an opportunity to

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, right, I think the first handbook of uh

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it was uh it was a er a they came

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out with an annual book anyway, uh somebody dropped

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out at the last minute and somebody suggested my name

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and I was invited to contribute an article that was

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really quite a thrill for me. And so I

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said, okay, wait a minute, how can

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we do this? And I I thought about the

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or and the rubber boots, and I said,

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you know what, maybe we could invent an instructional

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system, maybe we can make just a few assumptions

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and see how far we could go. And so

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we said, okay, well let's see if there's

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just a few uh primary presentation forms now. Back

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up just a little, my father was an artist

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when I was growing up, I always wanted a

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big box of France, he was poor. So

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every time my birthday would come instead of getting a

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big box of crayons, I get a grants.

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And my dad would say you've got more than you

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need to take red, yellow and blue and black

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and draw a wonderful landscape on my paper to show

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me you only needed for grants. Well that's stuck

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in my mind. So I stopped and I said

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okay, I want I want no more than four

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basic things. And so we came up with some

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esoteric words like expose it for a generality and so

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uh expository incidents, inquisitorial generosity, quick story.

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And then we said ok if we can take these

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four things, these four primary presentation for us,

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can we describe almost all instruction, whether it's live

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can whatever with those four things and that became the

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basis of what became component displayed theory. And so

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you know, my primary focus from the time of

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my mission, through those experiences has been how do

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I make instruction effective, efficient engaging? Now I

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guess one literal explanation. I call that now either

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the third power that comes by an engineering background.

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Uh and and the reason I did that, I

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said we talked about E. Learning all the time

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now. So this this formulation of the question really

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is more recent than what I was aggressive. But

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the we talked about E learning and I said the

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E ought to be more than electronic, it ought

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to mean effective, efficient engaging. And so I

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said let's talk about the three instruction and That has

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been my question from day one. It's my question

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today. This is the book you just talked about

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is the latest attempt to answer that question. Uh

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I don't think it's the final answer. It's the

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best I can do at this point in time.

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Uh I have one hope for the book and that

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is that it stimulates uh thought and discussion and that

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people would disagree and that somebody else will come up

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with a better or in a rubber boot. Very

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interesting. We were talking the other day about your

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early days, having our Burnett and communicating but not

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really knowing what to do with it. And you're

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one of the early pioneers in our field computer based

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instruction and component display theory was almost early papers I

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remember reading in grad school and kept with me several

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times, referred to on um at the time I

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remember reading those and you had big expectations for computer

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based instruction Here. We are 40 years later from

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when you started doing that work. Have your expectations

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been met exceeded? Or have they failed? And

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could you explain why? Yeah. Well, you

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know, we, when we were working on Larry

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stalder was my major professor. He was one of

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the very, very, very early pioneers based instruction

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. He wrote a book uh for uh I think

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uh NSF uh and just little pamphlet called teaching machines

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. And it was not about teaching machines that we

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came to know them after Skinner. It was about

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computer based instruction and he talked about uh it was

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a very very uh it still is a very insightful

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, nobody has yet built a system like he described

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. Uh but I got involved in in computer based

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instruction. As a graduate student. We had our

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own computer. There's seven of us in the program

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. We had our own 1620 computer. The 16

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, by the way stands for 16K. of memory

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and things as big as the desk. And it

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was a card punch machine. The computer was fast

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enough. It was the key punch machine that was

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hard to get to. Um, so we were

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playing around with computer based instruction. And uh the

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very first system we worked on was called Socrates.

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It was a rear projections uh microfilm reader that we

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took this little computer and inserted in between the buttons

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so that the computer control the moving of the film

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rather than the buttons on the machine. It was

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really include uh, I'm probably one of the three

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dissertations that was done using that machine before it died

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, enormous death. Uh, but We sit around

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and it was costing us at that point in time

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about almost$4-$5 per hour per student to just for

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the machine time, let alone anything else, even

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development time. And so we're debating will it ever

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be cost effective to have a computer? Well,

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I have in my pocket right now a phone that

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has a 10,000 times more power than that machine had

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. And uh you know, the, the technology

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has just gone really crazy and really great. Uh

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So, but we were thinking, we were saying

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very star hero is a great visionary and we were

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saying all instruction is going to be on the computer

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here in just a few years. Uh In a

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sense, uh that expectation has been realized. Uh

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you know, I don't think there's anybody now anywhere

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that's teaching whether live or not, that's not using

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a computer in some way. We have learning management

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system for everything. So in one sense, it

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succeeded. Our expectation. We never could have anticipated

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the energy, even though we were sitting playing with

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our planet. We never, you know, I

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wish I'd have written an after Tuesday. Uh,

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but you know, it was, it was really

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, we had this great vision of what was going

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to happen in some ways. It's been very disappointing

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because you look at the school's always saw session yesterday

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with the show, the chairs all lined up straight

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in the role. You know, it's pretty much

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still the same today as it was then in some

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ways, but in other ways, uh, we

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online learning is very big without computers, this wouldn't

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be happening. It's not computer assisted instruction as we

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visualize it in those days, but it certainly is

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computer based Computer affiliate or something here in computer helped

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anyway. And so I think that the technology clearly

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has exceeded our wildest imagination. My big disappointment is

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that along with the technology, the underlying instructional theory

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, the underlying instructional design does not get paste.

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If anything. I think what we see now in

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terms of online instruction is not as good as what

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we were producing in the 70s and 80s in our

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computer-based instruction, because we were spending a lot of

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time on design and a lot of time on instructional

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strategies and what's happening now, Is there anybody with

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no experience at all? I can throw something on

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the internet. I mean, it takes you two

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minutes to put something on a website. There's all

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kinds of sites that don't have to know any programming

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. Just throw stuff up there and that's what happens

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. And so we have a lot of stuff called

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instruction, which I think really, really is poor

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. Uh, so it's a mixed bag. You

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know, on one side, I think that the

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use of computers and education is far exceeded what any

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of us could have imagined. And it's wonderful and

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there's all kinds of tools and we get people writing

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about all kinds of ways to use computers that To

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help us. On the other hand, uh I

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think my disappointment is not the technology, which I

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think is just continues to go crazy. Uh I

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think my biggest disappointment is the underlying instructional strategies in

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theory has not progressed all that much. I mean

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, we're still using some of the same instructional design

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things uh there in what the 20th here, the

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bestselling textbook that you and I are both trying to

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be uh in the seventh edition and and the basic

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underlying ideas have not changed mess. Now, I

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tried to present a few new ideas in this book

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, but I think that's my concern. I think

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we have a lot to learn about the underlying strategies

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and computers. You know, somebody yesterday said technology

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doesn't deal with quoted steve job wrong or something anyway

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, uh said computers don't or technology doesn't teach and

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that's true and it's what's in it and it's how

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we build it. So the strategy is underlying it

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and I think we still have a long ways to

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go. Okay. Uh could you describe your career

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, your career path in terms of the different jobs

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you've had over the years? Yeah, I can

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do that. I already gave you the introduction.

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Is that how I got on the path? I'm

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on. My first job was at George Peabody College

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in Nashville Tennessee. It was a separate university at

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that point in time. It's now part of Vanderbilt

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. That was a wonderful experience. I had an

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opportunity to do research and only had to teach one

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class this semester. So I started out in a

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, you know, not all young assistant professors have

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that opportunity to really start out in a research career

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. So I played around a lot of ideas and

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a lot of things at that point in time.

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I went from George peabody to Brigham Young University where

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I spent a year and at Brigham Young University,

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I was in a program where they were playing around

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with continuous progress, secondary education, you know,

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let's not have courses, let's not have periods,

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let's let students move at their own pace. A

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very visionary man that I worked with there and that

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was kind of a fun experience. And then I

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had an opportunity to go to stanford. I went

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to stanford as a visiting assistant professor which is three

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notches below a graduate assistant uh at stanford University.

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And I spent a year there uh in the in

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the R. And D. Center on teaching and

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but I wanted to be in the R. And

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D. Center on computer based instruction, which was

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Pat Supes and that was in a different group and

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the two groups are sort of fighting with the resort

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. I spent a year at stanford and then I

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decided that I didn't want to have a career there

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, much to the consternation of my chairman and dean

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at stanford, he said I was hunting my career

411
00:17:37.049 --> 00:17:40.039 A:middle L:90%
to leave stanford, but I said, yeah,

412
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:41.400 A:middle L:90%
I looked around the people that have been there their

413
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.980 A:middle L:90%
whole career and they were still being treated as students

414
00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:47.109 A:middle L:90%
even though they had full professors, I don't want

415
00:17:47.109 --> 00:17:48.559 A:middle L:90%
to, there's too many big people, I want

416
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.250 A:middle L:90%
to go somewhere. So I went back to BYU

417
00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:55.890 A:middle L:90%
and uh and that turned out to be a good

418
00:17:55.900 --> 00:17:57.559 A:middle L:90%
thing at that point in time. About a year

419
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.480 A:middle L:90%
after I returned uh Darryl monsoon, who was an

420
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.049 A:middle L:90%
assistant vice president, called me in his office said

421
00:18:03.049 --> 00:18:06.269 A:middle L:90%
I want you to start a media research department.

422
00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:07.900 A:middle L:90%
And I said I don't want to do media research

423
00:18:07.910 --> 00:18:11.269 A:middle L:90%
, I wanted your learning research, structural research.

424
00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:11.880 A:middle L:90%
And he said well what is that? And I

425
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.480 A:middle L:90%
explain he's okay then started instructional research department and I

426
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.400 A:middle L:90%
said okay so we started the center for what we

427
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.779 A:middle L:90%
call it, I let the structural research and development

428
00:18:22.789 --> 00:18:26.059 A:middle L:90%
I think I. R. And D. And

429
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.039 A:middle L:90%
uh he said here's the here's money for two full

430
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.710 A:middle L:90%
time PhD level people, here's the full time secretary

431
00:18:33.710 --> 00:18:34.789 A:middle L:90%
and here's a chunk of money uh to get you

432
00:18:34.789 --> 00:18:38.599 A:middle L:90%
started well as a young guy system professor I couldn't

433
00:18:38.609 --> 00:18:41.529 A:middle L:90%
turn that down. I said this is fantastic.

434
00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:44.970 A:middle L:90%
And we started the program at Brigham Young University and

435
00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:47.630 A:middle L:90%
Harvey Black and I, along with others who are

436
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:52.359 A:middle L:90%
there uh began the program that's still going at BYU

437
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.809 A:middle L:90%
uhh and uh that was a fun part of my

438
00:18:55.809 --> 00:18:56.950 A:middle L:90%
career, I harvey and I talked about that as

439
00:18:56.950 --> 00:19:00.130 A:middle L:90%
the Camelot. We had a wonderful time doing and

440
00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:03.059 A:middle L:90%
some of our students turned out to be some of

441
00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:04.160 A:middle L:90%
the leaders, charlie Rangel, everybody knows it's a

442
00:19:04.170 --> 00:19:07.619 A:middle L:90%
graduate of that program, bob Henderson is a graduate

443
00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:11.329 A:middle L:90%
program and numerous others, those are probably best known

444
00:19:11.329 --> 00:19:12.519 A:middle L:90%
in our field, but numerous others. So that

445
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:17.940 A:middle L:90%
was a really fun experience. As in Camelot,

446
00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:19.589 A:middle L:90%
there's always something that happens that kind of destroys the

447
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:22.349 A:middle L:90%
beauty of Camelot. And uh in my case that

448
00:19:22.349 --> 00:19:23.730 A:middle L:90%
was the case as well, I will go with

449
00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:26.859 A:middle L:90%
the details of that. But I decided that big

450
00:19:26.859 --> 00:19:29.990 A:middle L:90%
um university would no longer meet my needs and I

451
00:19:29.990 --> 00:19:33.799 A:middle L:90%
left first worked for of course where inc a company

452
00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.160 A:middle L:90%
that we had started to do its special design.

453
00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:38.069 A:middle L:90%
I was the R. And D. Director vice

454
00:19:38.069 --> 00:19:41.480 A:middle L:90%
president of that company for a few years. And

455
00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:44.660 A:middle L:90%
then I moved to California where that company had located

456
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.309 A:middle L:90%
and uh realized being in management, realized I had

457
00:19:48.309 --> 00:19:51.309 A:middle L:90%
not paid much attention to the books before I was

458
00:19:51.309 --> 00:19:52.259 A:middle L:90%
I was doing the R. And D. And

459
00:19:52.259 --> 00:19:52.920 A:middle L:90%
they were down there running the company and when I

460
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.269 A:middle L:90%
got down and I start to look at the books

461
00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:56.569 A:middle L:90%
and I said, we're breaking up, we're gonna

462
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.059 A:middle L:90%
be gone. And so I got really nervous and

463
00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:02.470 A:middle L:90%
uh I called Dick Clark who is at the U

464
00:20:02.470 --> 00:20:03.829 A:middle L:90%
. S. C. At the time. And

465
00:20:03.829 --> 00:20:04.579 A:middle L:90%
I said, Dick, I need I need an

466
00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:10.109 A:middle L:90%
academic appointment and so give me a job at USC

467
00:20:10.109 --> 00:20:11.160 A:middle L:90%
. And he said, okay, I'll work on

468
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.240 A:middle L:90%
it for the next couple of years. And I

469
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.759 A:middle L:90%
said no I have to have a by september.

470
00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:18.529 A:middle L:90%
And he said Dave this is us, see you're

471
00:20:18.529 --> 00:20:19.700 A:middle L:90%
not going to get a job by september no matter

472
00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:22.410 A:middle L:90%
what I said somebody sitting on a position, find

473
00:20:22.410 --> 00:20:25.000 A:middle L:90%
me a position in there and I'll come in his

474
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.900 A:middle L:90%
assistant visiting professor or something which happened which is a

475
00:20:27.910 --> 00:20:32.240 A:middle L:90%
miracle really. I went into the curriculum introduction department

476
00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:34.269 A:middle L:90%
much to their consternation and only reasons to Dean looked

477
00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:37.319 A:middle L:90%
at my resume and said whoa this guy's really productive

478
00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:38.630 A:middle L:90%
we wanted and he told him you will take him

479
00:20:38.670 --> 00:20:41.819 A:middle L:90%
. And so that was kind of uncomfortable fit.

480
00:20:41.829 --> 00:20:44.329 A:middle L:90%
But I had a good time, wonderful people that

481
00:20:44.329 --> 00:20:45.119 A:middle L:90%
I worked with and then the next year was moved

482
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:49.559 A:middle L:90%
over into the its technology department there at us.

483
00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:52.369 A:middle L:90%
So I stayed there for nine years, had a

484
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:55.849 A:middle L:90%
great experience there in L. A. Uhh.

485
00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:59.859 A:middle L:90%
But then I told my who actually, because I

486
00:20:59.859 --> 00:21:00.009 A:middle L:90%
couldn't live in L. A. With all my

487
00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:03.299 A:middle L:90%
kids, had six kids. We lived clear down

488
00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:06.400 A:middle L:90%
in Orange County. And I was commuting as I

489
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.059 A:middle L:90%
told people to to five hours a day, I

490
00:21:08.069 --> 00:21:11.000 A:middle L:90%
said, this is not going to work. And

491
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.970 A:middle L:90%
so um so I told my, I got to

492
00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:18.460 A:middle L:90%
find another position and she's all don't resign anyway.

493
00:21:18.460 --> 00:21:22.119 A:middle L:90%
About that time, I was offered a opportunity to

494
00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.990 A:middle L:90%
go to Utah State University. Uh And uh I

495
00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:26.900 A:middle L:90%
told him there's no way I'm going to Utah state

496
00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:29.390 A:middle L:90%
. I've been here on a site visit. I

497
00:21:29.390 --> 00:21:30.279 A:middle L:90%
know what your salaries are and I'm not gonna accept

498
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.019 A:middle L:90%
that kind of a salary. And so uh but

499
00:21:33.019 --> 00:21:36.869 A:middle L:90%
they persuaded and played it and they did a very

500
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:37.720 A:middle L:90%
tricky thing. They had to give a talk.

501
00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:41.859 A:middle L:90%
And there were about 25 doctoral students and I've never

502
00:21:41.859 --> 00:21:44.420 A:middle L:90%
seen that many doctors students in one room and every

503
00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:45.109 A:middle L:90%
one of them had read every paper I'd written the

504
00:21:45.109 --> 00:21:47.789 A:middle L:90%
last three or four years. And the questions were

505
00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:49.630 A:middle L:90%
fantastic for about two hours. It was the single

506
00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:52.480 A:middle L:90%
best presentation I've ever seen. And they really have

507
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.150 A:middle L:90%
prompted. And that sort of, It took me

508
00:21:56.150 --> 00:21:56.829 A:middle L:90%
and I said, Oh well I found out that

509
00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.190 A:middle L:90%
that drag graduate students in that graduated everybody but me

510
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.079 A:middle L:90%
. But anyway, I decided to go to Utah

511
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.210 A:middle L:90%
state and I spent the next 17 years then at

512
00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:10.000 A:middle L:90%
Utah state, also a wonderful experience. I love

513
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.630 A:middle L:90%
Logan, loved it there. Um, and that's

514
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:17.359 A:middle L:90%
uh, I had an opportunity then to go serve

515
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:18.619 A:middle L:90%
as a missionary for the mormon Church. Now our

516
00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:23.970 A:middle L:90%
missionary, just postulating uh, a senior person retirement

517
00:22:23.970 --> 00:22:26.500 A:middle L:90%
age person, there's all kinds of opportunities to serve

518
00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:27.779 A:middle L:90%
. And in my case they said, we want

519
00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:30.740 A:middle L:90%
you to go to BYU Hawaii and we want to

520
00:22:30.740 --> 00:22:33.009 A:middle L:90%
help the faculty courses online, which is right down

521
00:22:33.009 --> 00:22:34.039 A:middle L:90%
my alley. That's why I said great. And

522
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:36.509 A:middle L:90%
so I wanted to do that. But my dean

523
00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:37.700 A:middle L:90%
said no, we're not going to give you a

524
00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:38.029 A:middle L:90%
lead. I want to leave and want to come

525
00:22:38.029 --> 00:22:40.259 A:middle L:90%
back. And he said, no, we can't

526
00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:41.619 A:middle L:90%
give you leave to do that. Uh, and

527
00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:45.490 A:middle L:90%
I said, I'm doing educate well though it's a

528
00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:47.980 A:middle L:90%
religious assignment. I can't do that. And I

529
00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:49.009 A:middle L:90%
said, okay, thank you very much, been

530
00:22:49.009 --> 00:22:52.589 A:middle L:90%
a pleasure working here. And I retired had Utah

531
00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:56.119 A:middle L:90%
state. I went then to BYU Hawaii. I

532
00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.829 A:middle L:90%
spent two years there and then I came back after

533
00:22:59.829 --> 00:23:03.430 A:middle L:90%
that experience at, we've been home for about four

534
00:23:03.430 --> 00:23:03.740 A:middle L:90%
or five months. Well, I actually, when

535
00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:07.380 A:middle L:90%
I came back florida State University said we want you

536
00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:08.240 A:middle L:90%
to florida state, I said, I don't want

537
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.829 A:middle L:90%
to live in florida, but I said I would

538
00:23:10.829 --> 00:23:11.890 A:middle L:90%
be, I would consider a semester a year.

539
00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:15.549 A:middle L:90%
And so they, they gave me a appointment for

540
00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:18.369 A:middle L:90%
three winter semesters. And so the first one I

541
00:23:18.369 --> 00:23:22.339 A:middle L:90%
went to florida and it had a great experience down

542
00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:23.119 A:middle L:90%
there, loved it. It was great thrill for

543
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.099 A:middle L:90%
me to actually be a florida state find because they

544
00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:29.240 A:middle L:90%
had such a good reputation. And so I taught

545
00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:30.369 A:middle L:90%
there for a semester and then I went home and

546
00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:33.000 A:middle L:90%
just after I got home I got a call from

547
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:36.730 A:middle L:90%
the new president of BYU Hawaii saying we want you

548
00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:38.710 A:middle L:90%
to come back for two more years. And so

549
00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:41.039 A:middle L:90%
we debated in january. We went back to starting

550
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.849 A:middle L:90%
under two year term, unfortunately only lasted a year

551
00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:45.529 A:middle L:90%
because I had a serious heart attack at the end

552
00:23:45.529 --> 00:23:48.319 A:middle L:90%
of the first year and they decided I better go

553
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.000 A:middle L:90%
home. But I spent another year, and since

554
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.349 A:middle L:90%
that time I continued to teach classes at BYU Hawaii

555
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.950 A:middle L:90%
. In the meantime, I got acquainted the University

556
00:23:56.950 --> 00:23:57.990 A:middle L:90%
of Hawaii. So I talked last university, y

557
00:23:57.990 --> 00:24:02.819 A:middle L:90%
I continued my assignment at florida state teaching online and

558
00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:03.779 A:middle L:90%
by then I was pretty hooked at teaching online.

559
00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:07.359 A:middle L:90%
And I've taught a class at least every semester online

560
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:11.509 A:middle L:90%
since that time, in addition to writing and doing

561
00:24:11.509 --> 00:24:12.730 A:middle L:90%
some other consulting. So I think that a lot

562
00:24:12.730 --> 00:24:15.740 A:middle L:90%
of people that need a different retirement manual that you

563
00:24:15.750 --> 00:24:18.119 A:middle L:90%
read about, uh my neighbor knows about retirement.

564
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.700 A:middle L:90%
He plays golf every day all day that I can

565
00:24:21.980 --> 00:24:25.019 A:middle L:90%
do that either. So what do I do now

566
00:24:25.029 --> 00:24:26.640 A:middle L:90%
is think back and you touched on this a little

567
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.930 A:middle L:90%
bit about your early research interests and maybe just put

568
00:24:30.930 --> 00:24:33.720 A:middle L:90%
some of those more, what were your aspirations when

569
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.980 A:middle L:90%
you get started? I've indicated what got me into

570
00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:37.759 A:middle L:90%
the fields to try to find out how to be

571
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.769 A:middle L:90%
effective teacher. And I really, you know,

572
00:24:41.769 --> 00:24:44.190 A:middle L:90%
unlike a lot of, a lot of students that

573
00:24:44.190 --> 00:24:45.619 A:middle L:90%
I know kind of go from this to this.

574
00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:49.400 A:middle L:90%
I tried a lot of things and you know,

575
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:52.650 A:middle L:90%
it got involved with designing computer based instruction systems.

576
00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:56.529 A:middle L:90%
Even at one point in time, I invented a

577
00:24:56.539 --> 00:25:00.990 A:middle L:90%
computer language for running robots for kids. Uh,

578
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.769 A:middle L:90%
was an opportunity was kind of the farthest field that

579
00:25:03.769 --> 00:25:07.400 A:middle L:90%
we have. But underlying all this, I really

580
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.980 A:middle L:90%
have had one question and it's been, I think

581
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:15.240 A:middle L:90%
probably help my career. I'm not sure what everybody

582
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.599 A:middle L:90%
ought to do, but I really have not floundered

583
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.059 A:middle L:90%
around very much trying to find what to do.

584
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.859 A:middle L:90%
I tried different things, but all of them,

585
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:26.470 A:middle L:90%
we're focused on the same idea. How can I

586
00:25:26.470 --> 00:25:27.710 A:middle L:90%
really make construction really effective, How can I really

587
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:30.720 A:middle L:90%
teach in a really effective way? I wish I

588
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.769 A:middle L:90%
knew the answer. Uh I think the book is

589
00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:34.150 A:middle L:90%
closed, but uh at least the best I can

590
00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:37.769 A:middle L:90%
do at this point in time. Uh And I

591
00:25:37.769 --> 00:25:40.500 A:middle L:90%
think I think what I've written there will help.

592
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:42.059 A:middle L:90%
It's a very detailed how to do it manually,

593
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:48.380 A:middle L:90%
but and I'm happy With the answer that I finally

594
00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:49.859 A:middle L:90%
came up with that for 50 years. Uh but

595
00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:52.319 A:middle L:90%
as I told people, I wish now that I

596
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.380 A:middle L:90%
was just getting my degree as 26 and knew what

597
00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:56.640 A:middle L:90%
I knew and had written this book and was starting

598
00:25:56.650 --> 00:25:57.380 A:middle L:90%
from there because now I know what I would like

599
00:25:57.380 --> 00:25:59.930 A:middle L:90%
to do with my career and you can do seven

600
00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:00.420 A:middle L:90%
edition and I could see, yeah, I could

601
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:03.529 A:middle L:90%
yeah, it's not gonna last for seven editions probably

602
00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:07.519 A:middle L:90%
at this point in time. So really I've been

603
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.589 A:middle L:90%
pretty straight focus the whole time. And you know

604
00:26:11.589 --> 00:26:12.150 A:middle L:90%
, I've had to teach other things once in a

605
00:26:12.150 --> 00:26:15.609 A:middle L:90%
while because your college professor and I haven't always had

606
00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:17.650 A:middle L:90%
my body experience where I got to do with whatever

607
00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:19.549 A:middle L:90%
I wanted. But for the most part, my

608
00:26:19.549 --> 00:26:23.660 A:middle L:90%
career has been in research universities. I've had usually

609
00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:27.839 A:middle L:90%
one class a semester I've rarely taught to. Once

610
00:26:27.849 --> 00:26:32.000 A:middle L:90%
I taught three, that was pretty rare for me

611
00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:33.130 A:middle L:90%
. So I've had a research appointment most of my

612
00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:37.769 A:middle L:90%
career and that's been Wonderful opportunity to write and do

613
00:26:37.769 --> 00:26:38.200 A:middle L:90%
research. Now. We've done a lot of things

614
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.109 A:middle L:90%
. We went through$5 million dollars worth of have

615
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.680 A:middle L:90%
money from a company in Germany when we try to

616
00:26:45.690 --> 00:26:49.170 A:middle L:90%
design what my students called the moon shaw, we

617
00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:53.099 A:middle L:90%
try to design it an intelligent computer based instruction system

618
00:26:53.529 --> 00:26:57.089 A:middle L:90%
. And uh we made some progress on that before

619
00:26:57.089 --> 00:27:00.740 A:middle L:90%
that company went bankrupt. Not because of us because

620
00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.319 A:middle L:90%
somebody else. And so uh you know we've got

621
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.950 A:middle L:90%
a lot of different things but in all of those

622
00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:11.299 A:middle L:90%
things in inventing a computer system and designing uh I

623
00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:14.990 A:middle L:90%
. D. Expert all of it has been focused

624
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.160 A:middle L:90%
on how do we how do we make construction effective

625
00:27:18.170 --> 00:27:22.839 A:middle L:90%
? I've been very interested in computer based instruction.

626
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.119 A:middle L:90%
I think that it's much more powerful than people.

627
00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:30.160 A:middle L:90%
Talk about somebody yesterday made some comment about oh I

628
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.769 A:middle L:90%
guess it was filling a session. I was said

629
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.339 A:middle L:90%
you know computers can never be really personal. And

630
00:27:37.339 --> 00:27:41.170 A:middle L:90%
I said well go read the media equation where it

631
00:27:41.170 --> 00:27:42.619 A:middle L:90%
talks about the computer is going to have personality.

632
00:27:42.619 --> 00:27:45.589 A:middle L:90%
There's a lot of things I don't think we've even

633
00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:48.730 A:middle L:90%
started to scratch the surface with the potential of this

634
00:27:48.730 --> 00:27:52.329 A:middle L:90%
fantastic tool. But again, my interest has not

635
00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:55.450 A:middle L:90%
been in the tool per se, but always in

636
00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:59.049 A:middle L:90%
what's the strategies that we can implement with this tool

637
00:27:59.059 --> 00:28:00.660 A:middle L:90%
? And if we don't have the right strategies,

638
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:03.670 A:middle L:90%
it doesn't. Okay. You mentioned earlier that you

639
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.269 A:middle L:90%
had your ah ha moment when Skinner indicated that he

640
00:28:07.269 --> 00:28:08.700 A:middle L:90%
changed his mind. Is there a place in your

641
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.920 A:middle L:90%
career where you had a similar shift may be either

642
00:28:11.930 --> 00:28:15.160 A:middle L:90%
major or minor in terms of the way you were

643
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.769 A:middle L:90%
approaching internal effectiveness? Not not to change my direction

644
00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:25.069 A:middle L:90%
. Um There there and maybe that's another question later

645
00:28:25.069 --> 00:28:29.279 A:middle L:90%
, but there were people and experiences that really changed

646
00:28:29.289 --> 00:28:32.420 A:middle L:90%
my direction. Ir Skinner was probably the first big

647
00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:38.000 A:middle L:90%
hot inside. Uh my my mentor Darryll Munson at

648
00:28:38.009 --> 00:28:41.819 A:middle L:90%
BYU when he asked me to start the media researcher

649
00:28:41.829 --> 00:28:45.180 A:middle L:90%
, construction research department, he was a fantastic person

650
00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:48.130 A:middle L:90%
. And one of my other ah ha moments is

651
00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:49.589 A:middle L:90%
uh he said, you know the church has a

652
00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:52.279 A:middle L:90%
lot of money BYU by the way is the church

653
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.670 A:middle L:90%
sponsored in mormon church sponsored school. And he said

654
00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:56.079 A:middle L:90%
the church has a lot of the money they put

655
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:59.480 A:middle L:90%
out for doing research in our area. And he

656
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:00.990 A:middle L:90%
said, yeah, I need you to, this

657
00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:03.609 A:middle L:90%
is very early. I just started working with him

658
00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:04.849 A:middle L:90%
, he said I need you to write a proposal

659
00:29:04.940 --> 00:29:07.769 A:middle L:90%
so that we can get some of this money.

660
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.509 A:middle L:90%
And so he mentored me a little about how to

661
00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:11.730 A:middle L:90%
write the proposal. And I did and I took

662
00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:12.839 A:middle L:90%
it to him and he said no, no,

663
00:29:12.849 --> 00:29:17.069 A:middle L:90%
no. So about three weeks back and forth,

664
00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:18.509 A:middle L:90%
you know, each thursday I met with him and

665
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:19.660 A:middle L:90%
finally about the third week he said, okay,

666
00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:22.319 A:middle L:90%
that's good, we've got it, I'll take it

667
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:23.559 A:middle L:90%
to the vice president, will sign off the picture

668
00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:26.509 A:middle L:90%
. And so I go into the next thursday anxious

669
00:29:26.509 --> 00:29:29.509 A:middle L:90%
to hear what happened. And he said what happened

670
00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:32.019 A:middle L:90%
? He so he said no, he said,

671
00:29:32.019 --> 00:29:33.049 A:middle L:90%
he said no. He said yeah, he said

672
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:36.259 A:middle L:90%
no, we're not gonna do that. Shut up

673
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:38.279 A:middle L:90%
my tail between my legs, started leaving obviously.

674
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.880 A:middle L:90%
Where you going? I said, well, what

675
00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:44.869 A:middle L:90%
what's next? He said, I didn't say we

676
00:29:44.869 --> 00:29:45.650 A:middle L:90%
were going to do it. I just said the

677
00:29:45.650 --> 00:29:48.150 A:middle L:90%
vice president said no. And I said, well

678
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.230 A:middle L:90%
if the vice president said no then how we can

679
00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:52.740 A:middle L:90%
do it. And he said you and I know

680
00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:56.180 A:middle L:90%
I know is not the right answer. Well that

681
00:29:56.190 --> 00:29:59.750 A:middle L:90%
became my mantra for the rest of my career because

682
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:00.940 A:middle L:90%
I learned from that and and we went back and

683
00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:03.990 A:middle L:90%
rewrote the proposal and the next time we submitted exactly

684
00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:07.490 A:middle L:90%
the same but much rewritten and he said what you

685
00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:11.859 A:middle L:90%
didn't realize is that you have to figure out when

686
00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:12.940 A:middle L:90%
the man is in charge, who's in charge,

687
00:30:12.950 --> 00:30:15.549 A:middle L:90%
what his interest is. You wrote this in terms

688
00:30:15.549 --> 00:30:18.890 A:middle L:90%
of Iraq, we need to right now in terms

689
00:30:18.890 --> 00:30:21.410 A:middle L:90%
of his interest. And that was a great lesson

690
00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:22.359 A:middle L:90%
to me and I learned from him. There's three

691
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.369 A:middle L:90%
things you need to get money. You need to

692
00:30:25.369 --> 00:30:26.200 A:middle L:90%
know who writes the checks. You need to know

693
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.440 A:middle L:90%
what his passion is and then you need to write

694
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.420 A:middle L:90%
your proposal in terms of his passion and if you

695
00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:33.440 A:middle L:90%
do that, you'll always get the money. And

696
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.200 A:middle L:90%
so that was a big turning point Micro. And

697
00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:37.539 A:middle L:90%
that made a big difference because I wrote a lot

698
00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:40.650 A:middle L:90%
of proposals after you. So that was, that

699
00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:41.109 A:middle L:90%
was a big change. So no, it's not

700
00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:45.940 A:middle L:90%
the right answer became the next person. That also

701
00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.930 A:middle L:90%
was a vice president at Utah State University. I

702
00:30:48.930 --> 00:30:52.950 A:middle L:90%
had a very large contract from the military and,

703
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:56.059 A:middle L:90%
and I've done several small contracts with them and that

704
00:30:56.069 --> 00:30:59.339 A:middle L:90%
we finally got the point where we have happened was

705
00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:00.950 A:middle L:90%
large for me. Half a million dollars. Not

706
00:31:00.950 --> 00:31:03.720 A:middle L:90%
large anymore, but half a million dollar contract.

707
00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:10.200 A:middle L:90%
And, and my project monitored with just go ahead

708
00:31:10.420 --> 00:31:11.670 A:middle L:90%
and start with this and I'll get the paperwork to

709
00:31:12.339 --> 00:31:15.349 A:middle L:90%
. So I hire people. We started on the

710
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.819 A:middle L:90%
project and the paperwork is not coming. And so

711
00:31:18.829 --> 00:31:19.900 A:middle L:90%
, and I told my, uh, and so

712
00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:22.460 A:middle L:90%
the university's old you astronomy, but you have your

713
00:31:22.470 --> 00:31:25.319 A:middle L:90%
department that will have to guarantee this. So I

714
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:26.359 A:middle L:90%
told you once made in my environment, I said

715
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.990 A:middle L:90%
, it's a sure deal Don, we're going to

716
00:31:29.990 --> 00:31:30.410 A:middle L:90%
get the money. So just, you know,

717
00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:32.900 A:middle L:90%
you won't lose anything. He said, Boy,

718
00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:34.430 A:middle L:90%
I sure hope so because it's about I'm into this

719
00:31:34.430 --> 00:31:37.279 A:middle L:90%
about$80,000 right now and I can't afford that out

720
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.779 A:middle L:90%
of the department budget. And I said, No

721
00:31:38.789 --> 00:31:41.519 A:middle L:90%
, not to worry. Well now is the time

722
00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:42.049 A:middle L:90%
goes on. The time goes on. I kept

723
00:31:42.049 --> 00:31:45.450 A:middle L:90%
calling this guy. Where's our paper workers are paper

724
00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:47.640 A:middle L:90%
? The university started to scream at me. Where's

725
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.700 A:middle L:90%
our paperwork? I went to a conference was a

726
00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:52.400 A:middle L:90%
R A. T. I sat down and had

727
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.579 A:middle L:90%
lunch people, you know, he said, I'll

728
00:31:55.579 --> 00:31:57.049 A:middle L:90%
have it to you next week. So I called

729
00:31:57.049 --> 00:32:00.039 A:middle L:90%
him and he said, Dave, I hate to

730
00:32:00.049 --> 00:32:00.609 A:middle L:90%
tell you this, but we've decided not to fund

731
00:32:00.609 --> 00:32:04.089 A:middle L:90%
it. I've been going for six months. I've

732
00:32:04.099 --> 00:32:07.079 A:middle L:90%
had three people working full time for six months and

733
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.859 A:middle L:90%
I'm in about$80,000 into our, into our things

734
00:32:10.339 --> 00:32:14.319 A:middle L:90%
even more than that. And I said, you

735
00:32:14.329 --> 00:32:16.359 A:middle L:90%
can't do this. I thought my career's over,

736
00:32:16.369 --> 00:32:20.019 A:middle L:90%
I'm done, Utah state they're going to fire me

737
00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:22.230 A:middle L:90%
right on the spot. I don't know what to

738
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:23.309 A:middle L:90%
do. I went for a long walk the morning

739
00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:28.160 A:middle L:90%
after that. I was really beside myself. I

740
00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:30.569 A:middle L:90%
figured, you know, they're going to take it

741
00:32:30.569 --> 00:32:31.250 A:middle L:90%
out of my salary. Who's, what they're gonna

742
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:32.470 A:middle L:90%
do? You know? I know, I knew

743
00:32:32.470 --> 00:32:36.990 A:middle L:90%
the department could afford and so somebody said, well

744
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:38.500 A:middle L:90%
you need to go see bar Jensen is the research

745
00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.569 A:middle L:90%
vice president. So you're kidding me. That's the

746
00:32:40.569 --> 00:32:44.589 A:middle L:90%
last person I want to see. I just lost

747
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.119 A:middle L:90%
$100,000 or more for the university. You want me

748
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:47.390 A:middle L:90%
to say no, no, no, you need

749
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:52.059 A:middle L:90%
to see. So hesitantly. I made appointment and

750
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:53.450 A:middle L:90%
he said, I'll meet you for lunch today for

751
00:32:53.450 --> 00:32:55.809 A:middle L:90%
lunch. And he said, he started the conversation

752
00:32:55.809 --> 00:32:58.769 A:middle L:90%
by saying, I understand you need a little money

753
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:00.599 A:middle L:90%
. And I said, well I don't know what

754
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.700 A:middle L:90%
I need. But I said I know that they

755
00:33:02.710 --> 00:33:06.170 A:middle L:90%
backed out on my contract after giving me verbal okay

756
00:33:07.029 --> 00:33:08.170 A:middle L:90%
. And he said he says how much do you

757
00:33:08.170 --> 00:33:15.069 A:middle L:90%
need? Well I had really he said work it

758
00:33:15.069 --> 00:33:15.769 A:middle L:90%
out and be in my office at 8:00 AM.

759
00:33:16.539 --> 00:33:19.839 A:middle L:90%
And so I went, you know, so I

760
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.190 A:middle L:90%
did, I said well I like to keep these

761
00:33:21.190 --> 00:33:22.299 A:middle L:90%
two guys at a higher full time on and I'd

762
00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:24.569 A:middle L:90%
like to, you know, I need a little

763
00:33:24.569 --> 00:33:27.819 A:middle L:90%
bit. And so I went and handing the budget

764
00:33:27.829 --> 00:33:30.640 A:middle L:90%
and I said uh you know, I don't haven't

765
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.170 A:middle L:90%
got any other prospects, I don't know where I'm

766
00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:34.059 A:middle L:90%
going to find. And he said why do you

767
00:33:34.059 --> 00:33:35.430 A:middle L:90%
think we hired you? You're going to find the

768
00:33:35.430 --> 00:33:37.240 A:middle L:90%
money. It's not a big deal. He said

769
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:38.660 A:middle L:90%
here's the account number. Use this until you get

770
00:33:38.660 --> 00:33:43.259 A:middle L:90%
into the contract to cover. And so, uh

771
00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:45.089 A:middle L:90%
, and I learned from, from talking to other

772
00:33:45.089 --> 00:33:49.559 A:middle L:90%
people that that was his modus operandi. He,

773
00:33:49.940 --> 00:33:51.980 A:middle L:90%
you know, he was a guy that believed in

774
00:33:51.980 --> 00:33:52.599 A:middle L:90%
making this happen. So that was, that was

775
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:57.190 A:middle L:90%
the third kind of really helpful thing in my career

776
00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:59.180 A:middle L:90%
. So I don't know if they haven't answered your

777
00:33:59.190 --> 00:34:00.740 A:middle L:90%
question, but those are they were they weren't,

778
00:34:00.750 --> 00:34:05.559 A:middle L:90%
they weren't, they weren't conceptualized as they were more

779
00:34:05.569 --> 00:34:08.409 A:middle L:90%
mentoring me in, in how to be a researcher

780
00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:12.960 A:middle L:90%
, how to be a scholar. Ah they really

781
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.289 A:middle L:90%
help. Those are two of the people have really

782
00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:17.460 A:middle L:90%
made a big difference in my life because then I

783
00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:22.789 A:middle L:90%
went back with enthusiasm and confidence and move forward.

784
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.389 A:middle L:90%
So sure, Okay, well over the last 50

785
00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:29.260 A:middle L:90%
years you've seen a lot of you've seen our field

786
00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:31.670 A:middle L:90%
evolved from the very beginning to where we are today

787
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:36.869 A:middle L:90%
. Could you identify, I don't know, 3

788
00:34:36.869 --> 00:34:42.599 A:middle L:90%
45 ideas or trends that have you seen major impacts

789
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.489 A:middle L:90%
in our field? Absolutely graduate school. The first

790
00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:47.469 A:middle L:90%
two years of behaviorism, they were died in the

791
00:34:47.469 --> 00:34:51.670 A:middle L:90%
world behaviors. I worked with Richard Anderson is on

792
00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:52.960 A:middle L:90%
my committee. Richard Anderson adjusted as a brand new

793
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.099 A:middle L:90%
assistant professor come from Harvard working the skinner. He

794
00:34:57.099 --> 00:34:59.309 A:middle L:90%
was diagnosed with skin area at that time. He

795
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:04.679 A:middle L:90%
evolved out of that after everything was behaviorism. I

796
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.250 A:middle L:90%
remember one of the assignments I had was to to

797
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:12.440 A:middle L:90%
work out how somebody learns the concept green with s

798
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.500 A:middle L:90%
our bonds. It was a terrible excitement, which

799
00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:20.239 A:middle L:90%
today I stopped no clue. So that was very

800
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.079 A:middle L:90%
big. But at the same time, David Ausubel

801
00:35:22.090 --> 00:35:27.269 A:middle L:90%
was on my committee. David Ausubel was, I

802
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.949 A:middle L:90%
don't know how to characterize him. Exactly. It's

803
00:35:28.949 --> 00:35:31.380 A:middle L:90%
really esoteric guy. But you know, he did

804
00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:36.739 A:middle L:90%
the what he called the psychology of meaningful learning or

805
00:35:36.739 --> 00:35:40.980 A:middle L:90%
something that was very influential. And so and cognitive

806
00:35:40.989 --> 00:35:44.760 A:middle L:90%
psychology was just coming in. So I was right

807
00:35:45.139 --> 00:35:46.619 A:middle L:90%
. My graduate program was right on the crust for

808
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:51.500 A:middle L:90%
behaviorism was right at its peak and dying. And

809
00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:53.280 A:middle L:90%
in cognitive psychology was coming along. Bang, he's

810
00:35:53.289 --> 00:35:57.579 A:middle L:90%
look, I read the the conditions of learning and

811
00:35:57.579 --> 00:36:00.670 A:middle L:90%
manuscript. One of my professors was a reviewer for

812
00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:02.659 A:middle L:90%
that. Before the 1st 1965 version was published.

813
00:36:04.030 --> 00:36:06.940 A:middle L:90%
And he handed to me to read that was my

814
00:36:06.949 --> 00:36:08.989 A:middle L:90%
beginning. My relationship with bob Junior, who is

815
00:36:08.989 --> 00:36:14.239 A:middle L:90%
the other greatest implanting communities that later. And I

816
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:15.960 A:middle L:90%
wrote bob Gonyea. And I said, you just

817
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:17.130 A:middle L:90%
wrote the book I wanted to write in my career

818
00:36:17.250 --> 00:36:21.050 A:middle L:90%
and he said, are you coming to a P

819
00:36:21.050 --> 00:36:22.039 A:middle L:90%
. A. That was somewhere. And I said

820
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:23.989 A:middle L:90%
yes. And he said then meet me for lunch

821
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:25.510 A:middle L:90%
. So I was my first opportunity to have a

822
00:36:25.510 --> 00:36:28.750 A:middle L:90%
one on one. He came he was one of

823
00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:31.090 A:middle L:90%
the three people listened to my presentation on my dissertation

824
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:35.349 A:middle L:90%
and stayed after for about an hour and visited with

825
00:36:35.349 --> 00:36:37.550 A:middle L:90%
me and that started our friendship and relationship. Um

826
00:36:38.530 --> 00:36:45.030 A:middle L:90%
So I forgot the question that uh oh so that

827
00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:46.760 A:middle L:90%
was the first the first big trend was to watch

828
00:36:46.769 --> 00:36:52.650 A:middle L:90%
the evolution from behaviors and two cognitive approach. two

829
00:36:52.659 --> 00:36:57.099 A:middle L:90%
wild man constructivism. It's not a leveled off a

830
00:36:57.099 --> 00:36:59.340 A:middle L:90%
little now. I'm not quite so crazy. But

831
00:36:59.349 --> 00:37:02.039 A:middle L:90%
I went through all of that in my own my

832
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:06.849 A:middle L:90%
own kind of theoretical position. I always told people

833
00:37:06.849 --> 00:37:09.269 A:middle L:90%
I try to tiptoe through the ISMs. I tried

834
00:37:09.269 --> 00:37:13.130 A:middle L:90%
not to identify myself as a behaviorist or as a

835
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:16.250 A:middle L:90%
constructivist or at certain constructivist there. Or even a

836
00:37:16.250 --> 00:37:20.840 A:middle L:90%
cognitive psychologist. I said I'm more interested in the

837
00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:23.420 A:middle L:90%
underlying principles, not the theoretical explanation at that level

838
00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:29.340 A:middle L:90%
. The psychology certainly interested theoretical explanations, but not

839
00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:31.300 A:middle L:90%
. So that was one big tree in terms of

840
00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:37.409 A:middle L:90%
the technology. Uh Everybody had a video lab,

841
00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:40.730 A:middle L:90%
video studio when I that was right. The height

842
00:37:40.739 --> 00:37:45.690 A:middle L:90%
of educational television. It was really big at the

843
00:37:45.699 --> 00:37:46.929 A:middle L:90%
time I got my degree and shortly thereafter, so

844
00:37:46.929 --> 00:37:51.650 A:middle L:90%
everybody had television that was kind of a big shortly

845
00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:52.980 A:middle L:90%
after that we had teaching machines that kind of came

846
00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:55.530 A:middle L:90%
and went before you blink your eye. But I

847
00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:59.329 A:middle L:90%
was very big in teaching machines. I actually built

848
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:01.610 A:middle L:90%
a homemade teaching machine that I use for several research

849
00:38:01.610 --> 00:38:07.780 A:middle L:90%
studies in church puberty. Uh And so I was

850
00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:08.210 A:middle L:90%
very, I thought that was a very good way

851
00:38:08.210 --> 00:38:12.380 A:middle L:90%
to go. Obviously my dissertation was on the Socrates

852
00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:14.639 A:middle L:90%
system, which was a computer based teaching machine.

853
00:38:15.219 --> 00:38:16.929 A:middle L:90%
Um, so I was very fascinated by that whole

854
00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:21.619 A:middle L:90%
idea and still am. But, but that's involved

855
00:38:21.630 --> 00:38:23.829 A:middle L:90%
the technology. It just goes, you know,

856
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.670 A:middle L:90%
crazy every week now there's a new thing. So

857
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.750 A:middle L:90%
, uh, so I've seen that evolution and its

858
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:35.420 A:middle L:90%
involvement. Um, I think those are the two

859
00:38:35.429 --> 00:38:38.539 A:middle L:90%
biggest changes in terms of uh, what affected me

860
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:43.050 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, the theoretical change never really affected me

861
00:38:43.050 --> 00:38:45.829 A:middle L:90%
much. I haven't really changed much my orientation.

862
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:50.369 A:middle L:90%
Uh, I always smile when people characterize and critique

863
00:38:50.369 --> 00:38:52.860 A:middle L:90%
. My work is behaviorist and then somebody else at

864
00:38:52.860 --> 00:38:53.949 A:middle L:90%
the same time, the same work critiques it is

865
00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:59.969 A:middle L:90%
, is cognitive and nobody is well. No,

866
00:38:59.969 --> 00:39:01.289 A:middle L:90%
that's not true. David Jonathan bless his heart.

867
00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:05.989 A:middle L:90%
He's not doing well. But David Jonathan responded to

868
00:39:05.989 --> 00:39:07.840 A:middle L:90%
one of my first papers I gave on on the

869
00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:12.849 A:middle L:90%
problem senate instruction and that was a fun experience because

870
00:39:12.860 --> 00:39:15.900 A:middle L:90%
I presented the paper and David always we always were

871
00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:19.980 A:middle L:90%
sparring over constructed that. So David stood up as

872
00:39:19.989 --> 00:39:22.639 A:middle L:90%
discussed it and he said, I don't know what

873
00:39:22.650 --> 00:39:27.269 A:middle L:90%
to say. I've never David johnson quiet. I

874
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:29.309 A:middle L:90%
don't know what to say about Dave. He said

875
00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:34.320 A:middle L:90%
he's a born again constructive. He said, I

876
00:39:34.329 --> 00:39:37.730 A:middle L:90%
find myself agreeing with him and it's extremely uncomfortable.

877
00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:42.170 A:middle L:90%
And so so I've been characterized constructivist. But from

878
00:39:42.170 --> 00:39:45.320 A:middle L:90%
my own point of view, yeah, I've just

879
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:47.050 A:middle L:90%
kind of concentrate on what works and what are the

880
00:39:47.059 --> 00:39:51.489 A:middle L:90%
underlying things. And can we come up with instructional

881
00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:57.099 A:middle L:90%
principles of prescriptions that aren't necessarily uh derived from some

882
00:39:57.099 --> 00:40:00.760 A:middle L:90%
theoretical position, although you could probably explain them for

883
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.119 A:middle L:90%
any theoretical position. So, uh, you know

884
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:06.610 A:middle L:90%
, I tried to stay there as far as the

885
00:40:06.619 --> 00:40:09.300 A:middle L:90%
technology is concerned. I love to tinker like everybody

886
00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:12.230 A:middle L:90%
else. But I've tried very, very hard and

887
00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:16.199 A:middle L:90%
very deliberately not to get too involved with the technology

888
00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:19.880 A:middle L:90%
per se. Aside from the fact that we invented

889
00:40:19.889 --> 00:40:23.170 A:middle L:90%
to machines and computer based. But my role in

890
00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:27.489 A:middle L:90%
both of those projects was the underlying strategies involved the

891
00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:30.610 A:middle L:90%
ticket system which we invented early on at BYU.

892
00:40:30.670 --> 00:40:32.949 A:middle L:90%
And in fact just like it was evolving at the

893
00:40:32.949 --> 00:40:36.159 A:middle L:90%
same time that we built that system. So my

894
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.190 A:middle L:90%
contribution that system was that had built an instructional strategies

895
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:43.500 A:middle L:90%
had a real example practice strategy built in and we

896
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:46.809 A:middle L:90%
had a learner control off strategy which was completely was

897
00:40:46.809 --> 00:40:51.079 A:middle L:90%
it still is a completely novel I did has not

898
00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:54.460 A:middle L:90%
been developed uhh later when we worked on I.

899
00:40:54.460 --> 00:40:58.659 A:middle L:90%
T. Expert that it wasn't really a computer based

900
00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:00.119 A:middle L:90%
destruction system. All that we built that into it

901
00:41:00.190 --> 00:41:02.869 A:middle L:90%
. The whole idea was could we build in structural

902
00:41:02.869 --> 00:41:07.739 A:middle L:90%
design into an expert system that would guide designers by

903
00:41:07.739 --> 00:41:12.269 A:middle L:90%
assignment to do good instructional design? So it's sort

904
00:41:12.269 --> 00:41:15.960 A:middle L:90%
of intellectual leverage. So my emphasis always been on

905
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:20.150 A:middle L:90%
the underlying strategy. Okay, um what are some

906
00:41:20.150 --> 00:41:22.070 A:middle L:90%
of the key ideas and the key people that have

907
00:41:22.070 --> 00:41:25.250 A:middle L:90%
influenced your career and how do they affect? You

908
00:41:25.309 --> 00:41:28.309 A:middle L:90%
? Already talked about the administrators and if this is

909
00:41:28.309 --> 00:41:31.710 A:middle L:90%
my career, I suppose that the scholar that absolutely

910
00:41:31.710 --> 00:41:36.389 A:middle L:90%
most influenced my career certainly robert again. Um As

911
00:41:36.389 --> 00:41:38.750 A:middle L:90%
I indicated, I read the conditions of learning 65

912
00:41:38.750 --> 00:41:42.679 A:middle L:90%
edition in manuscript before it was published, I had

913
00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.099 A:middle L:90%
a conversation with bob. Can ye right. I

914
00:41:45.110 --> 00:41:49.570 A:middle L:90%
mean, just before it was published and and had

915
00:41:49.570 --> 00:41:51.739 A:middle L:90%
some correspondence with him after. I never was a

916
00:41:51.739 --> 00:41:53.659 A:middle L:90%
student of his, we never ever worked together.

917
00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:59.610 A:middle L:90%
I think he saw me as a the critic of

918
00:41:59.619 --> 00:42:04.570 A:middle L:90%
his for a while. Uh we uh, but

919
00:42:04.579 --> 00:42:08.190 A:middle L:90%
his eye, his conditions of learning I thought was

920
00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:12.800 A:middle L:90%
inspired. I thought it was right on. I

921
00:42:12.809 --> 00:42:15.909 A:middle L:90%
still do, I think that that that whole idea

922
00:42:15.909 --> 00:42:19.960 A:middle L:90%
that there are different kinds of learning I think was

923
00:42:19.969 --> 00:42:22.610 A:middle L:90%
kind of a key to my own thinking and uh

924
00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:25.280 A:middle L:90%
obviously component display theory and even now in first principles

925
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:30.210 A:middle L:90%
, I've retained that categories of learning as a way

926
00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:34.219 A:middle L:90%
of thinking about the world. Uh yeah, later

927
00:42:34.219 --> 00:42:37.940 A:middle L:90%
on I when I went to Utah State University in

928
00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:42.360 A:middle L:90%
1989, I think it was we invited Bob young

929
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:44.409 A:middle L:90%
yet to come for a conversation. They wanted to

930
00:42:44.409 --> 00:42:45.780 A:middle L:90%
have a debate and I wouldn't do it. I

931
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:46.360 A:middle L:90%
said I won't do a debate Bob. Can you

932
00:42:46.469 --> 00:42:50.590 A:middle L:90%
have a conversation? That's all on video. I

933
00:42:50.590 --> 00:42:52.019 A:middle L:90%
was gonna ask you about that. I was worried

934
00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:53.599 A:middle L:90%
about the background behind I remember both of you throwing

935
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:57.199 A:middle L:90%
over transparency. That's right. That's right. We

936
00:42:57.210 --> 00:42:58.920 A:middle L:90%
, it is an interesting setting because we were both

937
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:00.340 A:middle L:90%
sitting in a, in an easy chair and both

938
00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:02.760 A:middle L:90%
had an overhead transparency, but we were close enough

939
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.389 A:middle L:90%
to each other we could reach and touch each other

940
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.190 A:middle L:90%
. So we're sitting like this, the overheads were

941
00:43:07.190 --> 00:43:09.119 A:middle L:90%
here And we had an audience of almost 200 people

942
00:43:09.340 --> 00:43:13.280 A:middle L:90%
and they videoed the whole thing And then they edit

943
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.550 A:middle L:90%
the video very carefully. There there are 4 90

944
00:43:15.550 --> 00:43:19.519 A:middle L:90%
minute videos of that. There's an all day deal

945
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:22.570 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, we later published a series of seven

946
00:43:22.570 --> 00:43:25.900 A:middle L:90%
articles and that technology based on that conversation. But

947
00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:29.989 A:middle L:90%
as I told Marcy Driscoll yesterday any because he was

948
00:43:29.989 --> 00:43:31.690 A:middle L:90%
asking about that series, I said any resemblance between

949
00:43:31.690 --> 00:43:36.409 A:middle L:90%
the technology papers and what we actually said is queens

950
00:43:36.409 --> 00:43:38.579 A:middle L:90%
. And because bob edited them very carefully, but

951
00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:40.650 A:middle L:90%
he ended. Things have really changed in March.

952
00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:43.829 A:middle L:90%
Um, but that was, that was kind of

953
00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:45.800 A:middle L:90%
a highlight of my career. I really enjoyed that

954
00:43:45.809 --> 00:43:51.130 A:middle L:90%
conversation. And I think in the second video there's

955
00:43:51.130 --> 00:43:52.820 A:middle L:90%
a place in there where bob was. The first

956
00:43:52.820 --> 00:43:55.840 A:middle L:90%
video is kind of a confrontational a little bit.

957
00:43:55.849 --> 00:43:59.989 A:middle L:90%
And the second video, I made some comments and

958
00:43:59.989 --> 00:44:01.099 A:middle L:90%
he said he reached over and touched my knee and

959
00:44:01.099 --> 00:44:05.449 A:middle L:90%
said, you don't really disagree with me. I

960
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:07.989 A:middle L:90%
said, I said that my bob got the impression

961
00:44:07.989 --> 00:44:10.800 A:middle L:90%
that good. I said no bob. All I've

962
00:44:10.809 --> 00:44:15.000 A:middle L:90%
ever tried to do is to say what you said

963
00:44:15.010 --> 00:44:16.380 A:middle L:90%
or should have said and he said, oh you

964
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:20.940 A:middle L:90%
got carried away in the last category. Uh but

965
00:44:20.949 --> 00:44:22.400 A:middle L:90%
from that point on he and I were the closest

966
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.710 A:middle L:90%
of friends now, we did collaborate as much as

967
00:44:24.710 --> 00:44:28.309 A:middle L:90%
I like. We did get together after that at

968
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.599 A:middle L:90%
the American Institute of Science and American Academy of Science

969
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.739 A:middle L:90%
in Washington. And we spent five days six hours

970
00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:36.639 A:middle L:90%
a day talking just the two of us in a

971
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.699 A:middle L:90%
room with a monitor and a recorder. I have

972
00:44:39.699 --> 00:44:44.300 A:middle L:90%
all those audiotapes. Unfortunately there was a bad connection

973
00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:45.679 A:middle L:90%
and all those are terrible, terrible tapes are very

974
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.309 A:middle L:90%
hard to hear, but I have them all still

975
00:44:49.690 --> 00:44:52.280 A:middle L:90%
. Uh That was a very again, one of

976
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.599 A:middle L:90%
the really highlight weeks of my life. So bob

977
00:44:54.610 --> 00:44:58.079 A:middle L:90%
certainly had tremendous and I was trying to influence him

978
00:44:58.079 --> 00:44:59.539 A:middle L:90%
at that point as well as they try to influence

979
00:45:00.289 --> 00:45:02.119 A:middle L:90%
. Uh And and out of that came the paper

980
00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:06.579 A:middle L:90%
that we wrote together called uh Reno used the word

981
00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:08.289 A:middle L:90%
enterprise, which is not caught on nobody's using it

982
00:45:08.300 --> 00:45:13.469 A:middle L:90%
. Uh But I was I was pleased because when

983
00:45:13.469 --> 00:45:17.090 A:middle L:90%
Rita Richie put together uh that little synopsis of bob's

984
00:45:17.090 --> 00:45:21.170 A:middle L:90%
life uh and he reviewed it, he insisted that

985
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:22.440 A:middle L:90%
that article being put in. So I thought that

986
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:27.239 A:middle L:90%
was a good compliment to me. So probably the

987
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.380 A:middle L:90%
single most influential person in my career. Certainly my

988
00:45:30.389 --> 00:45:35.019 A:middle L:90%
major professor started me down the path of thinking about

989
00:45:35.030 --> 00:45:38.550 A:middle L:90%
how to build computer based instruction systems and the one

990
00:45:38.550 --> 00:45:40.610 A:middle L:90%
lecture he gave which I still have the notes for

991
00:45:42.190 --> 00:45:45.199 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, probably set the path of my involvement

992
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:49.429 A:middle L:90%
in designing computer based instruction systems and things. But

993
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.079 A:middle L:90%
again, that's been a secondary in food, a

994
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.980 A:middle L:90%
secondary thing. So those probably two people plus the

995
00:45:54.989 --> 00:46:00.780 A:middle L:90%
few administrators I mentioned probably had the most influence clearly

996
00:46:00.789 --> 00:46:01.440 A:middle L:90%
. You know, you you got to give a

997
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:04.869 A:middle L:90%
lot of credit to your wife in my case wife

998
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.699 A:middle L:90%
because my first wife passed away. First wife is

999
00:46:07.699 --> 00:46:10.880 A:middle L:90%
extremely supportive, very encouraging. My second wife is

1000
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:13.239 A:middle L:90%
the one that got me to write the book,

1001
00:46:13.250 --> 00:46:15.739 A:middle L:90%
says the first book. He said, you're writing

1002
00:46:15.739 --> 00:46:15.849 A:middle L:90%
a book. I don't see you write it,

1003
00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:20.079 A:middle L:90%
you're not getting any better. And that kind of

1004
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.900 A:middle L:90%
spurred me on to get it done. So I

1005
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:25.809 A:middle L:90%
they've been very influential but probably not from the academic

1006
00:46:25.809 --> 00:46:30.429 A:middle L:90%
side. What would you consider your greatest professional career

1007
00:46:30.429 --> 00:46:35.230 A:middle L:90%
accomplishment? The first principle of instruction, 20 years

1008
00:46:35.230 --> 00:46:36.920 A:middle L:90%
to get there, took 50 years to get there

1009
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:38.630 A:middle L:90%
. And I finally got to put that. Well

1010
00:46:38.630 --> 00:46:40.530 A:middle L:90%
you've had other books, you had the two versions

1011
00:46:40.530 --> 00:46:44.090 A:middle L:90%
on the concept learning. Yeah, yeah, that's

1012
00:46:44.090 --> 00:46:45.610 A:middle L:90%
right concept learning that bob tennis and I worked on

1013
00:46:45.610 --> 00:46:52.760 A:middle L:90%
early on. We uh, certainly the Chinese Elaboration

1014
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:54.489 A:middle L:90%
Theory. Uh that started with a lecture that I

1015
00:46:54.489 --> 00:46:59.860 A:middle L:90%
gave uh extemporaneous lecture, actually, some of our

1016
00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:01.369 A:middle L:90%
best. Yeah, absolutely, I think so.

1017
00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:07.159 A:middle L:90%
And uh, so I think I guess the best

1018
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.550 A:middle L:90%
accomplishment. I've had the opportunity to work with outstanding

1019
00:47:09.550 --> 00:47:12.809 A:middle L:90%
students. And I guess more than what I might

1020
00:47:12.809 --> 00:47:15.789 A:middle L:90%
have done personally, uh am I am proud of

1021
00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.670 A:middle L:90%
the students that I've had that went on to become

1022
00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:21.929 A:middle L:90%
really leaders in this field. That we mentioned a

1023
00:47:21.940 --> 00:47:23.469 A:middle L:90%
couple. I bet there are many others. And

1024
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:29.079 A:middle L:90%
I think I had many opportunities to go work for

1025
00:47:29.090 --> 00:47:32.199 A:middle L:90%
private industry was offered a lot of money. You

1026
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.750 A:middle L:90%
don't make a lot of money as a college professor

1027
00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:37.909 A:middle L:90%
. I don't know if you've noticed that. Uh

1028
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:42.489 A:middle L:90%
uh and I turned them all down and I remember

1029
00:47:42.489 --> 00:47:45.780 A:middle L:90%
one, she, some headhunter called me on the

1030
00:47:45.789 --> 00:47:47.699 A:middle L:90%
phone and we talked for about an hour and,

1031
00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:51.699 A:middle L:90%
and I ask all about the position and the people

1032
00:47:51.699 --> 00:47:52.329 A:middle L:90%
were, and I just find as much as I

1033
00:47:52.340 --> 00:47:54.829 A:middle L:90%
could when I got done that, I said,

1034
00:47:54.829 --> 00:47:59.909 A:middle L:90%
well, I don't think I can accept the position

1035
00:48:00.190 --> 00:48:00.579 A:middle L:90%
. And she said, well, you didn't even

1036
00:48:00.579 --> 00:48:04.519 A:middle L:90%
ask me about salary. I said oh what's the

1037
00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:07.059 A:middle L:90%
salary? And she said well it's six figures and

1038
00:48:07.059 --> 00:48:08.550 A:middle L:90%
the first one is not a one. And I

1039
00:48:08.550 --> 00:48:12.239 A:middle L:90%
said oh and then I couldn't possibly accept it.

1040
00:48:12.269 --> 00:48:13.860 A:middle L:90%
And she said well I don't think I can get

1041
00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:15.269 A:middle L:90%
any more than that. I said no no that's

1042
00:48:15.269 --> 00:48:17.050 A:middle L:90%
not the problem is too much. I said if

1043
00:48:17.050 --> 00:48:19.840 A:middle L:90%
somebody offered me that much money, I think they're

1044
00:48:19.849 --> 00:48:21.590 A:middle L:90%
gonna they think they can tell me what to do

1045
00:48:21.969 --> 00:48:22.309 A:middle L:90%
. And I said, No one tells me what

1046
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:27.440 A:middle L:90%
to do, not even for$200,000. So she

1047
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.219 A:middle L:90%
was quite shocked. But I was quite sincere.

1048
00:48:30.219 --> 00:48:30.769 A:middle L:90%
I mean I made a joke but I was quite

1049
00:48:30.769 --> 00:48:35.090 A:middle L:90%
sincere. I stayed at the university because of the

1050
00:48:35.090 --> 00:48:38.460 A:middle L:90%
students I'm still teaching. Uh Not because I make

1051
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:40.269 A:middle L:90%
anybody because I'm teaching you that joke. You know

1052
00:48:40.269 --> 00:48:44.920 A:middle L:90%
what that's like I'm teaching because I love that opportunity

1053
00:48:44.929 --> 00:48:46.050 A:middle L:90%
to interact with students. I like to see people

1054
00:48:46.059 --> 00:48:50.340 A:middle L:90%
who say aha. Uh you know, I look

1055
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:52.269 A:middle L:90%
forward to those students that really catch on and really

1056
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:57.690 A:middle L:90%
go. Uh and so I suppose the greatest accomplishment

1057
00:48:57.690 --> 00:49:00.559 A:middle L:90%
of all is the opportunity I've had to mentor really

1058
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:02.710 A:middle L:90%
right people. And and I hope, you know

1059
00:49:02.710 --> 00:49:06.300 A:middle L:90%
that I said the book as far as my own

1060
00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:09.559 A:middle L:90%
personal expression of what I've tried to learn. Obviously

1061
00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:14.460 A:middle L:90%
I tried to put into this what I've heard it

1062
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:17.480 A:middle L:90%
is kind of a accumulation of whatever. Uh huh

1063
00:49:19.170 --> 00:49:21.639 A:middle L:90%
. And I know I'm not gonna make any money

1064
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:22.909 A:middle L:90%
if I keep telling my wife, she said,

1065
00:49:22.909 --> 00:49:22.960 A:middle L:90%
I hope you make a lot of money. Said

1066
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:27.170 A:middle L:90%
don't spend any uh you know, it's like it's

1067
00:49:27.170 --> 00:49:29.659 A:middle L:90%
an academic book honey. You know, there there

1068
00:49:29.659 --> 00:49:30.530 A:middle L:90%
may be 2000 people in this field. It might

1069
00:49:30.530 --> 00:49:32.280 A:middle L:90%
sell that many, but that would really be unlikely

1070
00:49:32.289 --> 00:49:37.300 A:middle L:90%
. Uh but I said, but my my hope

1071
00:49:37.309 --> 00:49:39.409 A:middle L:90%
is not money. I didn't write for money.

1072
00:49:39.409 --> 00:49:44.420 A:middle L:90%
I have written shades of grey or something. I

1073
00:49:44.429 --> 00:49:49.539 A:middle L:90%
wouldn't have. Uh but uh but my hope is

1074
00:49:49.550 --> 00:49:53.090 A:middle L:90%
that I've presented ideas in a way that triggers thought

1075
00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:57.849 A:middle L:90%
in the next generation of graduate students and that because

1076
00:49:57.849 --> 00:49:59.840 A:middle L:90%
they're probably the ones that get, get to read

1077
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:07.670 A:middle L:90%
this and that if I if I have stimulated people's

1078
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:09.929 A:middle L:90%
ability to continue to work into research and figure this

1079
00:50:09.940 --> 00:50:13.679 A:middle L:90%
thing out, continue to search the answer to the

1080
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:15.090 A:middle L:90%
question that I had, then I will felt like

1081
00:50:15.090 --> 00:50:17.789 A:middle L:90%
that my career is a success and that's my major

1082
00:50:17.789 --> 00:50:22.820 A:middle L:90%
thing. I you know, otherwise the rest of

1083
00:50:22.820 --> 00:50:24.469 A:middle L:90%
it's all superficial. Well, in 10 years when

1084
00:50:24.699 --> 00:50:29.130 A:middle L:90%
we're too old to correct to make it to a

1085
00:50:29.130 --> 00:50:31.380 A:middle L:90%
ct how do you want this next generation to remember

1086
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:39.179 A:middle L:90%
? Uh I don't know. I suppose I remember

1087
00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:43.769 A:middle L:90%
me how they remember me, but I hope I've

1088
00:50:43.769 --> 00:50:45.860 A:middle L:90%
tried always to be a, you know, kind

1089
00:50:45.860 --> 00:50:51.400 A:middle L:90%
I hope that I haven't been seen as unkind or

1090
00:50:51.409 --> 00:50:54.489 A:middle L:90%
uh you know, I have definitely been on the

1091
00:50:54.489 --> 00:50:58.210 A:middle L:90%
side of the student. Uh huh. You know

1092
00:50:58.210 --> 00:51:00.190 A:middle L:90%
, we've gone through, I can't even remember how

1093
00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:06.210 A:middle L:90%
many dissertation defenses and my orientation has always been to

1094
00:51:06.219 --> 00:51:07.800 A:middle L:90%
be on the side of the student. I've always

1095
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:09.590 A:middle L:90%
told my students, I'm not letting you go into

1096
00:51:09.590 --> 00:51:13.719 A:middle L:90%
that exam until life because you're ready. And when

1097
00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:15.750 A:middle L:90%
you get into exam, if somebody gets out of

1098
00:51:15.750 --> 00:51:16.820 A:middle L:90%
line and starts to push you into a corner,

1099
00:51:16.829 --> 00:51:21.000 A:middle L:90%
uh your backup, I won't say anything unless I

1100
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000 A:middle L:90%
have to, but if I have to, I

1101
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.389 A:middle L:90%
will and there have been occasions when I do so

1102
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:25.289 A:middle L:90%
, I hope from that standpoint, I've been a

1103
00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:30.349 A:middle L:90%
good mentor to the students I've worked with. I

1104
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:32.780 A:middle L:90%
hope that the students have had classes with me,

1105
00:51:32.789 --> 00:51:37.820 A:middle L:90%
found something that triggered in them, a desire to

1106
00:51:37.829 --> 00:51:39.519 A:middle L:90%
go on and be creative. I told this story

1107
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:45.119 A:middle L:90%
yesterday to a group of john curry students and I

1108
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.989 A:middle L:90%
think it kind of characterizes my goal for students.

1109
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.659 A:middle L:90%
I was giving a lecture and all right, there's

1110
00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:55.840 A:middle L:90%
a small class that was at USC and somebody asked

1111
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:58.739 A:middle L:90%
a question and I thought about for a minute.

1112
00:51:58.739 --> 00:52:00.500 A:middle L:90%
I went to the blackboard and drew a flow chart

1113
00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:01.420 A:middle L:90%
to answer the question. I don't even know who

1114
00:52:01.420 --> 00:52:04.929 A:middle L:90%
it was, but and a woman sitting over here

1115
00:52:04.940 --> 00:52:08.019 A:middle L:90%
said, where did you get that as experience?

1116
00:52:08.030 --> 00:52:12.010 A:middle L:90%
Where did you get that photo? And I said

1117
00:52:12.949 --> 00:52:14.610 A:middle L:90%
, I don't know. I just thought it was

1118
00:52:14.610 --> 00:52:16.869 A:middle L:90%
a good way to ask the question. You mean

1119
00:52:16.869 --> 00:52:20.409 A:middle L:90%
you just made that up? And I said well

1120
00:52:20.409 --> 00:52:21.500 A:middle L:90%
I have thought about that way. But yeah,

1121
00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:22.449 A:middle L:90%
I guess I just made it. Oh she slammed

1122
00:52:22.449 --> 00:52:24.429 A:middle L:90%
her books. That I have never been so insulted

1123
00:52:24.429 --> 00:52:25.769 A:middle L:90%
in my life. I've never been to class.

1124
00:52:25.769 --> 00:52:28.659 A:middle L:90%
Somebody just makes up. She stormed out of the

1125
00:52:28.659 --> 00:52:31.579 A:middle L:90%
room. Well, I'm taking back my students are

1126
00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:35.769 A:middle L:90%
all embarrassed. Uhh and after I recovered I said

1127
00:52:37.250 --> 00:52:38.550 A:middle L:90%
, what does she think things come from? I

1128
00:52:38.550 --> 00:52:40.730 A:middle L:90%
said the bible says Adam named the animals, but

1129
00:52:40.730 --> 00:52:44.679 A:middle L:90%
I didn't read any where he talked about instructional design

1130
00:52:45.210 --> 00:52:49.599 A:middle L:90%
. So I said put somebody has to make stuff

1131
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:52.170 A:middle L:90%
up. I said so why not me? But

1132
00:52:52.170 --> 00:52:53.449 A:middle L:90%
I said more importantly to my glass, why not

1133
00:52:53.460 --> 00:52:55.530 A:middle L:90%
you? I said, I think one of the

1134
00:52:55.539 --> 00:53:00.650 A:middle L:90%
greatest problems we have in our graduate program is we

1135
00:53:00.650 --> 00:53:04.070 A:middle L:90%
do not encourage students to make stuff up. We

1136
00:53:04.070 --> 00:53:07.650 A:middle L:90%
need more people to take their ideas and run with

1137
00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:08.550 A:middle L:90%
them and push them and say, I think I

1138
00:53:08.550 --> 00:53:10.269 A:middle L:90%
can do this as bad as these big guys.

1139
00:53:10.849 --> 00:53:13.699 A:middle L:90%
Uh, you know, you and I both know

1140
00:53:13.710 --> 00:53:15.909 A:middle L:90%
we're not that smart, you know, I know

1141
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:17.469 A:middle L:90%
about you, but I'm not, you know,

1142
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:21.269 A:middle L:90%
we've produced some stuff, we've written some stuff,

1143
00:53:21.750 --> 00:53:22.929 A:middle L:90%
Uh, but you know, I don't know a

1144
00:53:22.929 --> 00:53:25.260 A:middle L:90%
whole lot more now about that question than I did

1145
00:53:25.269 --> 00:53:28.360 A:middle L:90%
50 years ago, a little bit. Uh,

1146
00:53:28.369 --> 00:53:30.440 A:middle L:90%
certainly have some ideas and enthusiastic that I push those

1147
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:34.349 A:middle L:90%
ideas. But deep in my core, I say

1148
00:53:34.349 --> 00:53:36.829 A:middle L:90%
, I don't think we know the answers. I

1149
00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:39.869 A:middle L:90%
and so for me, I hope that if nothing

1150
00:53:39.869 --> 00:53:43.690 A:middle L:90%
else, I've been a stimulus for other people to

1151
00:53:43.699 --> 00:53:45.530 A:middle L:90%
think and to push and to move forward. So

1152
00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:47.219 A:middle L:90%
that's what I would hope. Very good. Thank

1153
00:53:47.219 --> 00:53:49.639 A:middle L:90%
you very much. Thank you. It's been a

1154
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:51.980 A:middle L:90%
pleasure. Yes. Okay. Yeah.