WEBVTT

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many individuals have been involved in our field from the

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beginning and have witnessed firsthand its growth and impact of

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what we do on training and education In this program

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. We will be talking with Dr Malcolm Fleming who

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is a faculty member in the instructional systems technology program

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at Indiana University for over 20 years. DR Fleming

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welcome. I'd like to begin by talking about your

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interest in the field and how you got started and

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I know that you were in World War Two in

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the Army Signal Corps as a still photography, had

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a long history of working the stove target. You've

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got interested at age eight and kept it up even

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to the day, I understand. Uh, and

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eventually you went to work for Kodak after the war

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and they recommended you come to Indiana University to study

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uh, audio communication. So what really created your

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interest? What motivated you to pursue a career in

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this field? Well as you gather by what you've

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already said, there was already, I could say

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a lifelong interest in photography, the big puzzle was

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what to do with it. What kind of photography

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to do that bothered me for a long time.

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I wasn't interested in portraiture. Wasn't interested in commercial

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photography particularly. Um, it was a Kodak that

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I got the idea of education. Maybe there was

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an education link up photography that would be useful and

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interesting. So, that's what brought me here.

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There's a big feeling that photography or at least pictures

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could be somehow profitably linked to education. So,

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I came here to find out what that was all

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about. Okay, so when you started, the

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field was called audiovisual Communication instruction, how would you

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correct characterize the focus during those early years? What

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the field focused on? Yeah, well, a

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part that I had contact while it was like,

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either if they are interested in huge civilization or are

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you're interested in medium? I think of harvey fry

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and flatten the number of those people who tight graphics

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courses and Were directly involved in moving images of one

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sort or another into the classroom. So uh they

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were my early teacher. Yeah, about this.

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I got particularly involved in the decision making process.

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How how do you pick what pictures for what purpose

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, with what audience, that old game. And

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so that's where I mostly uh concentrated. I came

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with a technical photographic background so that I didn't need

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. It was just you know, how to link

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up with the learner. Um, so that was

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the challenge of it all. And then eventually turned

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me into research, Find some of the answers.

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And learning learning literature where I've found if you do

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so and so worth a stimulus that you get attention

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or something. So I began to think, well

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, there are relationships between graphic, photographic verbal manipulations

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and no how people attend, whether they attend or

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not, whether they learn or not. And so

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that motivated an intensive a literature search and for principles

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, as I call them, that could be used

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by media folks that were based on learning research and

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howard levy came in then on the a motivational part

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of it, which I had not looked into at

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all. We were the collaborators. Over the years

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, our field has changed. The courses we offer

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, our graduate students have changed. In fact,

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the courses were teaching the day are quite different in

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many ways. And the courses I took as a

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student, how would you characterize your preparation? Maybe

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some of the courses you took? The emphasis at

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first, the courses were very, basically technical.

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Mhm. And we got that the navy on one

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corner of the campus and we went over to education

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and got some med psych, but it was pretty

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hard to link them. And that was the problem

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I felt in my early training, I came cold

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to the education field. I never taught, I

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never really thought I ever would teach. Okay.

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Uh, so, and I had a lot of

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education deficiencies in order to get into the school that

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had makeup, so philosophy and psych and all the

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rest of it. So whereas I imagine most of

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our students came with an education background. Well,

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Dave would have encountered uh curriculum in a different way

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than I did. Um, as to. They

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indicated that the main weakness, I felt any linkage

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between regular education, basic courses and AMY courses.

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Yeah, there are undoubtedly important linkages, but mostly

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it didn't occur except, let's say in utilization.

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Um, I was dead wood point instruct students about

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, I want to prepare class for film and so

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on, how to follow up. There was that

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much connection done. Um, but I felt in

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the production and there wasn't very much okay. Um

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, Thinking back to the 1960s, very exciting time

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. Our field is still very young. It's only

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been um, maybe You know, 10, 15

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, 10 years or so of ACC are published when

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you started. So I'm sure you have some great

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expectations. Maybe some aspirations when you got started as

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a new fact member. Can you? We lived

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a little bit that and tell us, you know

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, what what did you hope to accomplish when you

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got started? What was your, your research focus

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his first few years? Well, we had all

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the enthusiasm about a bright new idea, young folks

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eager to do make it in the world and convinced

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the, the A field was, was of pivotal

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importance and growing. And so there was a lot

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of the national enthusiasm, as I recall, some

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of the original difficulties were, yeah, are you

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going to find a position in a public school or

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a college? Most presume college? Because that's where

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we were, but gradually involved that business and industry

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might be an even bigger police to practice all the

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good things we are learning. And then along came

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systems development. And I asked, you know,

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oh, new way of thinking did that. I

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was curious about that because I know that you were

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there when the department was called Audiovisual Communications. And

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I think it was about 1971 when I first started

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that, uh, he was only Larson's last year

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. The department decided to change the name to instructional

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systems technology. How did that impact? Was that

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something you thought was a good change or did it

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something away from maybe what you were doing? I

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saw it and more political than anything. Okay.

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A. V. Was wasn't right new concept The

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older one and not not accepted everywhere on this campus

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in particular and it was sort of beneath uh many

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instructional scholars to think about media. But the easiest

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label I thought particularly the keyword systems for very uh

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, pertinent at that time an important concept. And

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I think Larson put together in a strange combination instructional

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systems technology. They wanted all the keywords in there

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, but they were put together in the new linkage

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I felt anyway. I thought it was uh,

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opened up new ways of thinking and new curricula,

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new employment opportunities and further was just strategically a good

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move. Um, you've had 20 years is the

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fact that you've also observed the field some beforehand.

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I mean you look at media beforehand and and you've

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seen changes since then. What are some of the

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major changes you saw during your career that that were

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exciting? Well there are technical changes. It seemed

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like that was mm. Yeah. The only a

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change that was characteristic of the field was just constant

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change. Technically there was always something new medium being

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developed and and there was a competition between us and

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television near the corner of the cabin. Um And

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I thought, mm conceptually the biggest change. Most

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important change was programmed instruction because there was a definite

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linkage between what you did and what the result was

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and the effect was to change instruction. Then you

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designed the unit, you tested the unit. Yeah

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. The students earned a B. And C.

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F. That's fine. But if they missed one

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or two others then you went back and re programmed

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until until those two deficiencies were instructional, he corrected

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. I thought that was a very important concept.

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Um You're probably best known for your work with visuals

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and it's it's timely. We still use your book

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today. My students are buying it on amazon.

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They pay actually more for the shipping than they do

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for the book. I don't know the royalty.

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Uh We actually used it. We I told a

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message design course last summer. It was very well

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received. I think we may have bought up all

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the extra copies in the U. S. And

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around there. But what are what were some of

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the major ideas you mentioned programmed instruction? But what

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are their major ideas influenced your career and your thinking

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? You mean ideas from the literature, from the

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literature, other fields maybe they didn't. That impacted

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your thinking? Well, you know, from my

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riding, uh I really got attracted first by the

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concept of attention what gets learner's attention. And many

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of my first principles were directed to that. Um

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, then learning seemed to be more part of the

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last name, um more obvious in our thinking.

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Mm well no, we had to learn and we

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knew that repeating it or Or associated with no one

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uh, things in your memory that would facilitate the

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linkage. So, and so a lot of learning

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part I felt from our classes and from our own

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experience, we kind of had a pretty good handle

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on some of the learning procedures or principles. So

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I felt the attention part was, it may be

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neglected also, uh, I neglected the attitude part

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. I was pretty weak in that area and that's

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where our leave came into film in that important component

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. I remember you uh this grant that you had

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to do the research on finding these principles and first

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published an article in viewpoints, the school of Education

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Bulletin. Actually remember one Christmas uh I got extra

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money to duplicate that book on the old Gestetner machine

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and cut them up and bind him and and all

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for your class uh one time. But I'm wondering

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that article evolved into the first chapter of your instruction

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message design book with Karen Levy. What if you

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could tell us a bit about how that your can

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the conceptual that book grew and and how it developed

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over the years. They kind of hit it and

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just started as a series of principles that we're and

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Memmio or what did all form and uh than kind

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of evolved against chapter by chapter uh Howard was just

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a fellow faculty person and we just got talking about

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field and people learning and so on. And he

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kept prodding me about the attitude part and I didn't

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know the literature and further i it was sort of

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an effective part and I was concentrating on burning part

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and back then I didn't realize the importance of the

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relationship but Howard filled in there with that important part

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of it. He knew the literature and he knew

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the importance of attitude. Mm hmm. And I'm

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my teaching. Um I was in production classes or

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scripting. I was most concerned that mm people the

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students attended to the learning and attention basics. Uh

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huh. Because so frequently the students wanted to make

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the movie of the year, you know, Hollywood

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quality and audience and I saw that as more attention

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to the effective part entertainment part than the education part

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. So I kind of resisted that home field and

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that's where thankfully Howard came in was needed. He

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could do it. And so we sort of finally

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collaborative. That's kind of missing since about two years

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ago I got interested in. Well I'm large.

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Some of my photos had taken a house in the

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pictures and my life just casually and got them digitalized

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in the computer and enlarged if you and I realized

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that people like them. Okay, I'll make some

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enlargements and make a display and metal wood and Build

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the walls there gallery area one time with pictures.

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Yeah. So finally I developed her in january this

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year set up. Mhm Single entre push in on

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, what's the word? Entrepreneur ridership partnership to work

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? I said no proprietorship for Mac, Fleming photos

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and several pictures. Um We're the crazy thing to

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do in your 90s and when you don't know a

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darn thing about business in the first place. So

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, mm, I've been learning anyway. That's just

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in the side of what, where this photography urge

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will lead you. Okay, well on that note

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, bob learner who was one of the enduring book

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photographers. I had a chance to meet him about

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a year ago and he made the comment that a

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photographer is known for one photograph. He jokes that

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could have retired at the age of 22 because that's

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his photograph is known for. What accomplishment in your

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career do you think you're your best known for?

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Why God, my biology classroom films that I was

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involved in? I'm sure, um, those were

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some of the first month of microscopic photography. Yeah

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. And well, First serial, 1st film was

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characteristics of plants and animals. And these are all

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selected on the basis of their relevance to the curriculum

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. And just to keep us on the straight and

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narrow. Uh, Larson always had an educational author

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as part of the committee. So we media folks

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couldn't get carried away with the subject either, uh

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, by way of errors or, or I'll mention

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them anyway. So they kept us on the subject

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matter narrow track. Mm But I don't look on

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those a signal accomplishments, particularly, uh, some

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of them sold and some didn't and that was abs

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problem margins problem. Mm So I guess it's in

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the area. Wind discussing. I think it's the

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president's relevance of research literature to our practice and trying

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to find out what the relevance was and trying to

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communicate. And I suppose it was my, from

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my point of view, my single contribution. Okay

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, right. Um, I know that today you're

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heavily involved in photography and we talked about beforehand and

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you have a, I think a unique perspective and

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that let's go back and look at photography rather than

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all the multimedia and computer stuff. Could you tell

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us a bit about that? I guess, a

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philosophy that you have today about photography? Oh,

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no, it seems to be that I'm more of

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a thing, photography photographer than the people photographer.

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My life gets at me all the time for taking

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landscapes or birds or flowers or whatever, rather than

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interesting pictures of people. In fact, most of

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the people pictures I have of her. So that's

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uh, that's a sort of in the side.

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Anyway, I do like the I started, my

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original concept was to be an outdoor photographer of some

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sort and uh, have been successful in nature photographers

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and who can compete with National Geographic. But anyway

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, those are some of the dimension, the types

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of photography that aspired to. Um, I guess

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the alone artistic principles occasionally say, you know the

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most in picture point of view too. I need

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a calls up here. That training comes into my

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still photography and a little art background comes into the

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notion of balance or emphasis or whatever. Yeah.

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Um, well, it's a sort of a um

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, mixed up part of ideas run through my mind

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when I take pictures, curious thing is that I

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don't take many anymore. I'm reveling in history.

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It's in my computer. I'm loving to dig them

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out. Large manipulate. Did you ever think when

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you enjoyed those old 45 speed graphic natives that you'd

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be doing it so easily on a computer someday?

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Never did. Never did. We're dead. Well

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, we thank you very much for your time.

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And uh, it's been very interesting having a chance

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to chat with you again after I think probably almost

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30 years since I saw you since last last summer

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. I saw you for a few minutes. So

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thank you very much for your time for me.