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Okay, so um my understanding is that Ferrari

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came first. Correct. He was at Auburn with you guys.

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And then he came here and brought four of you.

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Is that correct? Yeah, actually he brought

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three of us and the fourth one came from that

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same class in Auburn that he taught. He was my

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faculty member in Auburn. Um he came there because

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of a swiss man, Walter Schaer who ran industrial

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design at Auburn, that had gotten a job out

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of Max Bill's office in Zurich. And so Ferrari

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wanted to come to America and oh hey, talk

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to Share and Share, invited him over and he

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was hired at Auburn to be a faculty member and

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when he came to, he was in my fourth

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year faculty, he couldn't speak english I'm gonna hold you

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right there. I actually wanted to bring

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this camera down. Yeah. You don't mind Ferrari

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stories, do you? Absolutely not, in fact the genesis actually started off as

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a film about Ferrari Oh good. And because that's

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why the middle portion of the film so heavily devoted

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to that period of time. So I say,

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okay, good. Because you know, Ferrari left

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that the year before I came and so there were

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still all that myth going on. Yeah. Well he certainly

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set the stage still influencing you and your education.

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I've had a lot of nice conversations with Lucy

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and sort of made the curiosity grow. That's much

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better. Is Lucy going beyond the film I

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hope? Yeah. Good. She comes in October. Great.

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 Okay, so, so when Ferrari

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came, he taught us fourth year design studio and

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his english was not too good. So he would

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say for example, right here you need to make

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[draws window] and he'd say window, yes window.

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So it was fun. But anyway, he

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was a very inspirational teacher there and many of us

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learned a great deal about the opportunities to be a

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student which in the traditional school was not not possible.

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And he was actually interested in whatever the student was

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interested in which was new. And of course he knew

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all about architecture and was able to communicate his enthusiasm

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about architecture to us. I finished The second year

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that Ferrari was at Auburn and he had already met

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Charles Burchard that was 1968 and decided to, I'm

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sorry that's 1964 and decided to come up to Virginia

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Tech after meeting Burchard at I think at a CSA conference.

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So he brought me here in 1968.

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I had been two years in the army and I

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was at Fort Belvoir Virginia and northern Virginia and my

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parents lived in Alabama. So I would drive by

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here on route 81 going down to see them and

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I would stop and see Ferrari never visited the school

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just to see him because he was a painter also

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and I was interested in what he was painting and I'd

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go out to his house and we'd have chats about

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things. So after I finished the army I started

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working with architects for a second year working up there

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Ferrari called me up one day and

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said Tom would you did you ever think about teaching

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an architecture school? And I said, Professor Ferrari,

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not only have I not thought about teaching architecture

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school, I never want to set foot in another

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architecture school again in my life. And he said,

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oh, laughed and said, why don't you come

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down and see what we're doing here? And out of

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devotion to him, I said okay. So I

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came down and he was in the old high school

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building with Herbert Cromwell and the faculty member, one

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of the four faculty members over there, Asher German

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had left to go back to school. And so

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he had an opening. And when I saw what

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they were doing, their completely cut off from the

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main college, they could do whatever they liked.

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It was four faculty in that school. No secretaries,

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one typewriter, one telephone, no bureaucracy whatsoever

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and I knew Ferrari was a genius teacher.

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And Herbert Cromwell was there as well who had already

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come over. They knew each other

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in Zurich and had been teaching there for a year

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or so. And so when I saw what was

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happening, I said, well why don't I come

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down here for one quarter and we'll see how it

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goes. And he said okay. So I went

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back to Washington. Charles Burchard called me up said come

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on over, I'm at the octagon and some AR business

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and he hired me. So I started teaching in

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1968 without any previous teaching experience except in the army.

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I taught heavy construction equipment in the army. So

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starting to teach with Ferrari and Cromwell was amazing.

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The 4th person was a Cuban named Miguel Gaston.

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And Miguel had been a friend of Burchard in at

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Harvard. And when Castro took Cuba over, Miguel

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fled and Burchard gave him a job because of who

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he was. And Miguel had nothing to do with

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any of us. He was a practicing architect in

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Salem, he came in and taught his class and

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left every time. So my teaching experience began in

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the old high school building With teaching 50 freshmen in

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the morning and 35 sophomores in the afternoon, just as

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Ferrari and Cromwell did. I learned how to teach

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from Ferrari and from Cromwell. We would go to the

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point of interest, we would go for coffee breaks

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over to the Greeks and I would go with them,

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the three of us, They spoke German to

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each other, which I understood zero. Uh So

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every now and then Herbert Cromwell would stop and say

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Mr. Regan we're talking about so and so. What

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do you think of us or so. But slowly

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that broke down and I was able to learn from

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each of them how they taught. Those two faculty members

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were as opposite as possible and strategies of teaching.

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And so I learned from each of them, a

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possible way to teach. And they had very devoted

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students and they were very devoted to their students.

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But anyway, that's my experience in beginning here in

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teaching in the old high school building. What I'm

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curious about. So and okay, so let's see

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if we can frame this. So what I'm,

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what I'm interested in is so you had no desire

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to do this to come back to architecture. So

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I think that's fascinating. So tell me I had

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no no desire to teach. I was in practice.

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I didn't want anything to do with school anymore.

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It's because of Ferrari that I came here to

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talk about that, that so it was more about

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that you were in practice and you were happy doing

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that more so than uh what I'm after. Is

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was there something so fundamentally different about the way for

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Ferrari and Cromwell were setting up this school

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that it it changed the way that you saw architecture

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education in a way that made it irresistible. Yes

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several things. For one thing, there was absolutely

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no rules and no bureaucracy. Let me start you

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over because I cut myself out of this. So

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if you could just sort of come into that a

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statement. So you're not responding to what I okay

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that's fine in, I found when I began

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teaching here for that one quarter that I was going

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to stay that the pleasure of teaching as observed from

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both Ferrari and Cromwell was overwhelming. The organization

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was such that the first two years was completely separate

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than the 3rd, 4th and 5th year in graduate

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school. Those were already over here in Cobo Hall

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, Cobo Hall just was dedicated the year that I

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came and Burchard was over here with all of the

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rest. We never saw them, never talked to

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them, we're not concerned. The first two years

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was organized as the foundation division, as the fundamental

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introduction to you could say or experience with the whole

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range of design from, as Gropius would say,

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from the spoon to the city, we dealt with

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everything, the student was free there to explore design

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the way he or she, he or she sought

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designed to be and for our in Cromwell both taught

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me how you could unleash the power of an individual

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even at 18 years old to understand what they could

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do. So that in that first quarter I realized

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that in working with my own students and watching those

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two, that the power of unleashing the creative abilities

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And enthusiasm of 18 and 19 year old students was

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overwhelming. And so at the end of the first

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quarter for already said, you want to stay or

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go and I said, I think I'll stay the

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rest of the year. I stayed 14 years here

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and I stayed in architectural education for the rest of

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my professional life, the excitement of every day having

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students work on a project. The issues I brought

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from the office, there were issues that I've been

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interested in, that professional architects are struggling with all

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the time. I simply converted them to a project

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that a student could work on and the way they

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worked on it was tremendous feedback to me to learning

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from their ideas about how architecture could be. And

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in talking to Ferrari about whether I should go back

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into practice or why he didn't stay in practice.

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He was in practice for a while. I said

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, why are you doing this? He said,

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I realized that I can change architecture more by changing

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architects than I can by producing architecture. That's why

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I never became registered architect because I did not want

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to be separated and none of us did into trying

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to practice and trying to teach and trying to practice

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and trying to teach. We were dedicated to the

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idea that architecture needed changing. It was in bad

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shape at the time and it could be changed by

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influencing students. So those first years when I worked

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in the foundation division with Ferrari were just and crumble

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or just unbelieving. Both of them were very generous

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in explaining why they were doing what they were doing

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, where the ideas came from, what the pedagogical

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background was. We had very strict pedagogical grandfather's.

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It was jean pierre the swiss psychologist and through him

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, jerome bruner and we would, that's what the

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books that Ferrari gave me to read. He gave

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me read teacher, I said, I don't know

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how to teach in the first case said read these

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two books. So I read these two books by

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jerome bruner who was a disciple of piazza. And

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so that was the sort of structure of how we

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taught. And Ferrari structured the first two years in

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very simple terms. He said, first semester,

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make everything first quarter, make everything full scale,

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actual scale. So if they're going to make a

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cube, they make the cube. Don't make a

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small version of something big. That's too complicated for

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incoming freshmen. So that's what we did. We

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would have maybe second quarter, let's work on structure

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this, how things are held up to do that

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. So we would all do that within that framework

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. I was free to do whatever I liked.

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Uh didn't matter. And if I did something,

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had an interesting project for our incredible, would talk

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to me about us tremendously flattering to me at that

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time that they were interested and each of us would

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go in the other's classes and see look what he

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made, where did that come from. How do

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you do that? Talk to the students? It

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was tremendous learning experience, dwelling on it because it

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lasted me throughout my teaching career. I still teach

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right now. I'm retired Dean, I teach first

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year studio and how I'm teaching. It Is how

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I learned in 1968, The strategy, everything else

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is different. The strategy is the same as a

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matter of fact, in the culmination of my career

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, I gave the first project this semester as the

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first project that was one of Ferrari's When I first

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started teaching in 1968, but it ain't right.

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Um it was exciting. Let me ask you this

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. I want to ask you about practice and try

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to remember that. Uh but on that same line

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of thought. So it seems to me looking back

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at it that because I think we're still enjoying the

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fruits of what you all put together. I think

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it's changing, but I think the foundation is so

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strong that it's carried this far. Uh huh.

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How different was what you guys were attempting to do

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and were successful in doing how different was that Than

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architecture education up to that point, almost 180° opposite

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in every significant facet. That's why I never wanted

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to go back into architecture school. My education at

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Auburn, with the exception of Ferrari was a good

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education with bob, blah, blah. But the

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process was, you did what the faculty member told

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you to do. The faculty member would have to

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give you that context to how it's different. The

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faculty member would sit with you every day. Look

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what you have drawn put a piece of tracing paper

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over it and suggest how it could be better.

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I used to wait till I could hear him coming

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and I'd go get a coffee until he came to

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the next one. I hated for him to draw

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on top of my building and say do it like

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this and my irish rebellion stuff. But up here

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we never told a student how to do a project

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. As a matter of fact, when they gave

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the project, I learned this from foreign common also

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gave the project that said, do you have an

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idea? I said, I'll give you an idea

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but you can't use it and I'm going to give

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you the easiest idea so you really want me to

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tell you. But anyway, so one thing never

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told the student how to do it. Second was

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all architecture schools have the jury system. Students who

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put up the project, the faculty would sit and

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review. There were no jury's two years, no

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jury's not a single jury, Nobody ever had a

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jury. The third thing was the projects were given

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and every student had to work on the project and

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set up here. Students get combined if they wanted

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to, to, students wanted to work together.

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Fine. Not any problem. The students in traditional

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schools never kept any documentation of the process for our

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criminal introduced the role where the students continually worked on

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things. I asked him why not a book.

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He said because a book, you turn the page

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and it's a blank page. The student is confronted

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with a black page. Never let him be confronted

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with a blank page when you start the roll is

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continuous, you never stop. Also you can take

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the roll and roll it back and say, look

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back here. Here's where the idea was good.

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Here's what happened to you can teach them. Process

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. Another thing that most schools did not deal with

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and that is the process by which uh, an

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idea came and evolved into a final project here.

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A process was a fundamental thing to deal with.

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Um, no drawing. We had no teaching how

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to draw. Every school had prospective classes, no

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classes, students need to learn how to draw.

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They'll learn how to draw. We would show them

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if they ask, but there was no drawing class

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. We had them all eliminated. They working on

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each project, a student had to start a project

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, but if you were interested in a project,

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you were already working on, you could continually continue

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to work on it. Unheard of. In most

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schools, the deadline is up, you finish up

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, that's over and start something new. Some students

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took the first or second project, worked on the

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whole term. We didn't care as long as they

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were engaged in making progress. So it's a little

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bit like I had some connection with when USa today

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started as a newspaper and the man who started that

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said everything that regular newspapers do will do the opposite

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. It was a little bit like that. Everything

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that regular architecture education is, we'll do the opposite

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. The faculty never agreed in architectural education schools about

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any guiding principle of concept. We all agreed with

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PJ Model of how one learns. So that too

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was different. So the strategy for both for our

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and crumble, even though their strategy with the individual

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studios was very different, I can tell you that

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if you like. But the strategy of how we

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would teach what the setup was, so to speak

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was homogeneous. I guess that's why he brought me

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in because I understood what he was doing at Auburn

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as a student. And so he took a chance

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on bringing me, I was not the a plus

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student. I was missed our students. I don't

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know why he invited me first, but he did

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and that worked out. Um then he started bringing

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other people from our class at Auburn to others.

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Harold Hill and Jean Egger wanted to come into the

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graduate school so he brought him so he could get

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another degree. But Harold and I just came to

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teach both of us and Harold had worked Harold held

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worked closely with Ferrari as well and we were in

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the same classroom, Ferrari came, we were in

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his first class in America, so to speak,

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so and Gene was off in europe. But anyway

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, that's the way the exciting thing about being in

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that school and why I came, even though I

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was hostile to architecture schools, because all the nonsense

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was eliminated? We had our own brand of nonsense

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, but it was new nonsense. It wasn't the

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same as nonsense we had encountered. So I felt

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that the restrictions on the student that I did not

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appreciate when I was a student were lifted and that

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the students and faculty could explore the wonderful world of

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design at all scales uh with the freedom to actually

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do something. There's something that's come up is my

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question about practice that is very intriguing to me because

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it seems like it's a potential contradiction in the system

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for already practiced before he came here. You practice

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before he came here jean practice before he came here

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. And but there's Harold Hill did also. So

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and so did Bill Brown. Just to make the

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whole, Yeah. So it seems to me like

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that's important that you understand practice, you don't necessarily

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have to be registered architecture, but they understand practice

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in order to make this system work. Do you

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think that that that is fundamental and that potentially because

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I know I know a lot of people end up

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like, one thing I've got two Children and one

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thing that I have said to my wife is,

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you know, I would love for them to both

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go to architecture school. Whether or not they end

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up in architecture is irrelevant. It's such, it's

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the best education you can get. So I think

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there's there's a lot of that that people don't go

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into practice. But then do you then have trouble

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continuing the educational model? So if you could just

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speak to that idea, that is the question about

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whether a faculty member who does not have experience in

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practice would have the same impact as those that did

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not quite. I think you can frame it.

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My interest is that relationship of practice to be able

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to teach this way. I think the important thing

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for us in the beginning days was that there was

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no requirement, There was no for all, We

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never said, we don't get anyone in here is

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not practiced. Never an issue. The question was

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, how do you know what it's all about?

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That's the question. How do you know whether what

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we're doing in school is worthwhile because you can have

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a design school that has nothing to do with the

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actual world. It is possible and many are that

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way their cocoon so that everybody in their faculty and

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students agree that this is a special world and we're

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going to have fun and we're going to do interesting

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things has zero to do with the outside. So

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I think the fact that, and I've not thought

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about this before. Everybody in the early days had

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had some experience in practice before they were teaching.

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It was not so much as I know how practice

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works and you have to do this because it was

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that practice gave you the experience of what it's all

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about what goes on, where ideas come from in

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practice, how practice delivers a building, what the

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restrictions are on you, whether you like it or

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not through codes and processes and budgets and things.

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So I think that and we often talked about those

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kinds of things about the difference in practice in europe

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and practice in America, for example, Cromelin Ferrari

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and I, and I guess jean and others talked

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about that often how this works how that works.

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But I think that's the issue in terms of practice

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. Sometimes students are always wary in my opinion,

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particularly upper year master students of faculty members who have

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not been in practice. I think the reason they're

401
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concerned about that is for the wrong reasons. I

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think they are afraid that if the person did not

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do that did not done practice extensively, doesn't not

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register, doesn't have buildings under his or her name

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, that somehow they're missing something in terms of teaching

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architecture. I disagree with that. What's all together

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, we got the issues that we were dealing with

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in school from the issues in practice. I literally

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thought that I would practice, came up the position

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in practice. I would go in teaching for a

411
00:23:12.269 --> 00:23:15.859 A:middle L:90%
few years, then I'd reenter practice at a different

412
00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.980 A:middle L:90%
level based on the experience that I've gained. That

413
00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.079 A:middle L:90%
was my initial idea not to stay in school teaching

414
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.289 A:middle L:90%
school, but to go back into practice. I

415
00:23:25.299 --> 00:23:26.339 A:middle L:90%
think everybody thinks about that. I think that's a

416
00:23:26.349 --> 00:23:29.450 A:middle L:90%
big piece of what I've been hearing over and over

417
00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:33.170 A:middle L:90%
from people I've spoken to about this. Is that

418
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.299 A:middle L:90%
what architecture education is probably always this way. But

419
00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:40.740 A:middle L:90%
I think with the model that you guys took on

420
00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:42.920 A:middle L:90%
may be accentuated is the idea that you're always learning

421
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.980 A:middle L:90%
and you can learn from the students. And I

422
00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:48.650 A:middle L:90%
think that's that's, that was another premise as a

423
00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:51.509 A:middle L:90%
matter of fact that going back to your question about

424
00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:53.390 A:middle L:90%
the sort of fundamental ideas, One of the fundamental

425
00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:57.039 A:middle L:90%
ideas was way back in the 60s lifelong learning.

426
00:23:57.049 --> 00:24:00.369 A:middle L:90%
We thought that tell the students you're not going to

427
00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:03.200 A:middle L:90%
stop learning when you graduate and it doesn't matter which

428
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.349 A:middle L:90%
projects you do. As a matter of fact,

429
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.720 A:middle L:90%
maybe this would be interesting to you. The next

430
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.690 A:middle L:90%
phase when Ferrari took over the management of the whole

431
00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:15.390 A:middle L:90%
college, I'll tell you a story about how that

432
00:24:15.390 --> 00:24:15.859 A:middle L:90%
happens in a matter of fact sort of the humerus

433
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.130 A:middle L:90%
. But we designed, he designed, helped with

434
00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:25.470 A:middle L:90%
him a curriculum that was hourglass shaped. Do you

435
00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:29.960 A:middle L:90%
know this? The strategy of the curriculum was doubled

436
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:34.640 A:middle L:90%
one and plan and one in section the section strategy

437
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:38.640 A:middle L:90%
of the curriculum was an hourglass for five years that

438
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.660 A:middle L:90%
the first two years with the expansion of all scales

439
00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:45.440 A:middle L:90%
in design. The 3rd year was a restriction in

440
00:24:45.450 --> 00:24:49.150 A:middle L:90%
architecture as practice. Now, The 4th and 5th

441
00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:52.950 A:middle L:90%
Year again went back out into all scales of design

442
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.930 A:middle L:90%
. So the idea was that the student in one

443
00:24:56.930 --> 00:25:00.630 A:middle L:90%
sense in the first two years would find his or

444
00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:04.059 A:middle L:90%
her place, you could try urban design, you

445
00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:07.710 A:middle L:90%
could try industrial design, graphic design, try architectural

446
00:25:07.710 --> 00:25:11.029 A:middle L:90%
design, try planning, try all of those through

447
00:25:11.029 --> 00:25:14.089 A:middle L:90%
the studies we did in the first two years and

448
00:25:14.089 --> 00:25:15.079 A:middle L:90%
we did have projects in all of those. Then

449
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:18.730 A:middle L:90%
in the third year you were restricted. This is

450
00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:21.349 A:middle L:90%
what architects do, this is a real project,

451
00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:23.250 A:middle L:90%
this is you have to have structure calculations, you

452
00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:26.829 A:middle L:90%
have to know the all of those things and very

453
00:25:26.829 --> 00:25:29.789 A:middle L:90%
intense. As a matter of fact, the herald

454
00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:32.670 A:middle L:90%
took that held held, took that then expanded back

455
00:25:32.670 --> 00:25:34.099 A:middle L:90%
out into you find your spot, there was a

456
00:25:34.099 --> 00:25:37.119 A:middle L:90%
lot of those days about finding your spot and in

457
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.710 A:middle L:90%
five years you could find your spot, not in

458
00:25:40.710 --> 00:25:41.650 A:middle L:90%
one or two years and you had all of that

459
00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:49.019 A:middle L:90%
experience in plan, the curriculum was a spiral and

460
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:53.049 A:middle L:90%
the idea was as opposed to again the reverse of

461
00:25:53.049 --> 00:25:56.980 A:middle L:90%
curricula in most schools where the first year of the

462
00:25:56.980 --> 00:25:59.039 A:middle L:90%
1st and 2nd, 1st year prepares you for the

463
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:00.849 A:middle L:90%
2nd, 2nd prepares you for the third etcetera etcetera

464
00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:04.660 A:middle L:90%
. And you do new things in every year,

465
00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:10.420 A:middle L:90%
we felt that your issues spiraled up in increasing levels

466
00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:14.900 A:middle L:90%
of sophistication. That was the concept that you could

467
00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:18.009 A:middle L:90%
do an urban design project here. But when you

468
00:26:18.009 --> 00:26:23.059 A:middle L:90%
did it up here, the sophistication level was increased

469
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.289 A:middle L:90%
. That was the only difference you're dealing with the

470
00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:30.170 A:middle L:90%
same issues down here is up here, but in

471
00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:33.450 A:middle L:90%
a different level of sophistication and that strategy worked.

472
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:37.750 A:middle L:90%
So you could, it was not that, oh

473
00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:38.440 A:middle L:90%
, I did an apartment house. I'm not gonna

474
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.670 A:middle L:90%
do an apartment house again. None of that mattered

475
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:42.829 A:middle L:90%
because you might do an apartment house over and over

476
00:26:42.829 --> 00:26:47.490 A:middle L:90%
again. But it was completely different because the expectations

477
00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:51.319 A:middle L:90%
of the sophistication of that department house, apartment house

478
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:53.849 A:middle L:90%
, whatever you decide is quite different. The expectations

479
00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:59.210 A:middle L:90%
in the first two years was were explorations. The

480
00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:04.309 A:middle L:90%
expectations in the third year was competency. The expectations

481
00:27:04.309 --> 00:27:07.779 A:middle L:90%
in the 4th and 5th year were contributions. We

482
00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:11.670 A:middle L:90%
felt that by the time a student became 4th and

483
00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:14.660 A:middle L:90%
5th year, he or she could make contributions to

484
00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:17.650 A:middle L:90%
the field. They could develop ideas that could actually

485
00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:19.619 A:middle L:90%
be used in practice, not necessarily by them,

486
00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:22.960 A:middle L:90%
but show the way of how things could be done

487
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.890 A:middle L:90%
. I know of no other curricula I give,

488
00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:29.069 A:middle L:90%
I teach a course on how to teach design studio

489
00:27:29.069 --> 00:27:33.049 A:middle L:90%
at texas A. M. And therefore influential curricula

490
00:27:33.049 --> 00:27:36.769 A:middle L:90%
that I talk about there one here at uh,

491
00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:40.490 A:middle L:90%
at Virginia Tech in those days. Another where I

492
00:27:40.490 --> 00:27:42.809 A:middle L:90%
went to school for graduate study at the Architectural Association

493
00:27:42.809 --> 00:27:45.420 A:middle L:90%
School, Another at the University of Miami where I

494
00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:48.430 A:middle L:90%
was dean for a while, another at north Carolina

495
00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:49.720 A:middle L:90%
state was dead for a while, those are the

496
00:27:49.730 --> 00:27:53.000 A:middle L:90%
four curricula all different that are all good, but

497
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.349 A:middle L:90%
none of them have the plan section, understanding that

498
00:27:57.349 --> 00:28:00.650 A:middle L:90%
this curriculum had, whether it still exists here or

499
00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:03.890 A:middle L:90%
not, I have no idea. It's fascinating because

500
00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:06.410 A:middle L:90%
it's a classical education model, right? Where you

501
00:28:06.410 --> 00:28:07.460 A:middle L:90%
started the same thing in three? That's right.

502
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.130 A:middle L:90%
That's right. But not in architecture is not classical

503
00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:15.359 A:middle L:90%
in architecture, right? Yes, Very interesting.

504
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:18.849 A:middle L:90%
Um, and it worked. It worked well.

505
00:28:18.849 --> 00:28:21.259 A:middle L:90%
That's kind of where I want to go next is

506
00:28:21.269 --> 00:28:22.829 A:middle L:90%
uh, oh, excuse me. We would explain

507
00:28:22.829 --> 00:28:26.609 A:middle L:90%
this to students continually. So in the first two

508
00:28:26.609 --> 00:28:30.450 A:middle L:90%
years were set up in those days, You had

509
00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:33.529 A:middle L:90%
50 students Monday, Friday 8-12, you had 35

510
00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:41.180 A:middle L:90%
students. Uh, 125 monday Wednesday, friday Tuesday

511
00:28:41.180 --> 00:28:45.490 A:middle L:90%
and thursday Tuesday was a lecture day. So all

512
00:28:45.490 --> 00:28:48.740 A:middle L:90%
the first year students would come together and each of

513
00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:51.140 A:middle L:90%
the faculty mostly for would give talks to them.

514
00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:52.380 A:middle L:90%
And part of the talk was, here's how the

515
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:57.880 A:middle L:90%
curriculum is structured and wait, I have to tell

516
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.680 A:middle L:90%
you amusing story about Charles Burchard. When I took

517
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.329 A:middle L:90%
over the first two years, we would have Charles

518
00:29:03.329 --> 00:29:07.170 A:middle L:90%
Burchard come the last lecture of the first term.

519
00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:11.490 A:middle L:90%
He's the dean of the college. The students didn't

520
00:29:11.490 --> 00:29:14.569 A:middle L:90%
know he was necessarily, so he would give a

521
00:29:14.569 --> 00:29:18.349 A:middle L:90%
talk about the educational model of the college, which

522
00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:19.450 A:middle L:90%
he could do beautifully of course because he and Ferrari

523
00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:22.000 A:middle L:90%
invented all this together. So he would tell the

524
00:29:22.009 --> 00:29:26.579 A:middle L:90%
first quarter of freshmen what their expectations were from his

525
00:29:26.579 --> 00:29:30.069 A:middle L:90%
perspective all the way through. He did this every

526
00:29:30.069 --> 00:29:33.380 A:middle L:90%
year, every fall. I called him up one

527
00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:36.380 A:middle L:90%
time and I said, Dean Burchard a couple of

528
00:29:36.380 --> 00:29:37.509 A:middle L:90%
weeks. It's time for you to give your usual

529
00:29:37.509 --> 00:29:40.690 A:middle L:90%
lecture to the first year students. Oh yes,

530
00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:41.349 A:middle L:90%
I'll be glad to have it on my calendar.

531
00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:45.109 A:middle L:90%
This is the same one that you usually give every

532
00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:45.440 A:middle L:90%
year. He said, yeah, I'll be glad

533
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.720 A:middle L:90%
to. What do I, what do I usually

534
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.019 A:middle L:90%
say? Yes. He was wonderful week. I'm

535
00:29:53.019 --> 00:29:56.339 A:middle L:90%
sorry, reminisce, but expensive. He was so

536
00:29:56.339 --> 00:30:03.000 A:middle L:90%
wonderful that we had the students make t shirts with

537
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.210 A:middle L:90%
his picture on. And so he came to give

538
00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:07.690 A:middle L:90%
this toward his last time. He came to give

539
00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:11.349 A:middle L:90%
a talk And he walked down in this auditorium over

540
00:30:11.349 --> 00:30:15.250 A:middle L:90%
here was very steep and we could walk down and

541
00:30:15.250 --> 00:30:18.269 A:middle L:90%
he turned around and there were 250 T shirts with

542
00:30:18.269 --> 00:30:22.880 A:middle L:90%
his picture on there and he was just amazed for

543
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:23.930 A:middle L:90%
this C. V. On the back. So

544
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:30.119 A:middle L:90%
anyway, that's nice. Uh huh. So one

545
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.029 A:middle L:90%
of the things that actually brought me back here is

546
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.559 A:middle L:90%
uh, speaking to people in practice about Virginia tech

547
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.160 A:middle L:90%
. one of the things I heard a number of

548
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:45.589 A:middle L:90%
times was, yes, we've had good luck with

549
00:30:45.589 --> 00:30:48.269 A:middle L:90%
students from Virginia tech because they know how to think

550
00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:52.759 A:middle L:90%
, yes. And that to me is such a

551
00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:55.650 A:middle L:90%
, and I, to be completely honest, I

552
00:30:55.650 --> 00:30:57.059 A:middle L:90%
feel like we're losing that a little bit now and

553
00:30:57.059 --> 00:30:59.680 A:middle L:90%
I don't think it's the school. I think it's

554
00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:03.980 A:middle L:90%
a society is people come in different and not quite

555
00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:07.339 A:middle L:90%
as ready to change. I remember thinking but uh

556
00:31:07.339 --> 00:31:11.450 A:middle L:90%
huh you know, maybe you don't come out knowing

557
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.980 A:middle L:90%
, you know, It's fitting perfectly right into a

558
00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:18.059 A:middle L:90%
practice from day one. But you know how to

559
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.170 A:middle L:90%
, you have the fundamentals to make a real contribution

560
00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:25.900 A:middle L:90%
. And if you can talk about that, about

561
00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:26.849 A:middle L:90%
how well in the first two years is a good

562
00:31:26.849 --> 00:31:30.359 A:middle L:90%
point. In the first two years we told the

563
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.480 A:middle L:90%
students are objective. After two years as you're free

564
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:40.269 A:middle L:90%
of the faculty, you're no longer dependent that yourself

565
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.819 A:middle L:90%
actualizing yourself, operating the faculty becomes a resource person

566
00:31:45.819 --> 00:31:48.059 A:middle L:90%
rather than a leader to tell you what to do

567
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.779 A:middle L:90%
. And we did that by having several strategies to

568
00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:56.180 A:middle L:90%
put them in a situation where they had to think

569
00:31:56.180 --> 00:31:59.079 A:middle L:90%
their way out of it. And some of the

570
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.750 A:middle L:90%
problems given didn't make any sense. I mean,

571
00:32:01.750 --> 00:32:05.730 A:middle L:90%
they had no idea Ferrari was best at these.

572
00:32:05.730 --> 00:32:07.369 A:middle L:90%
That why would you want to do that? Even

573
00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:09.940 A:middle L:90%
if you could, but it forced them to think

574
00:32:09.940 --> 00:32:15.930 A:middle L:90%
about fundamental issues. Also, the results of the

575
00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:21.029 A:middle L:90%
projects were discussed extensively based on how the faculty saw

576
00:32:21.029 --> 00:32:24.769 A:middle L:90%
those things. Not necessarily this is you did what

577
00:32:24.769 --> 00:32:27.759 A:middle L:90%
we hoped you do, blah blah blah. But

578
00:32:27.769 --> 00:32:30.460 A:middle L:90%
we were often surprised by what they produced and would

579
00:32:30.460 --> 00:32:35.460 A:middle L:90%
not hide that, that surprised, but then would

580
00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:37.640 A:middle L:90%
analyze it in front of them. So they would

581
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.470 A:middle L:90%
see an adult thinking, quote unquote and then these

582
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.309 A:middle L:90%
lectures, for example, we had uh one that

583
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:47.930 A:middle L:90%
at the end of the next one to the end

584
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:51.049 A:middle L:90%
, that they would ask anything they wanted to,

585
00:32:51.940 --> 00:32:52.430 A:middle L:90%
why are we doing this? Why are we doing

586
00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:53.869 A:middle L:90%
that? Why don't we have to do this?

587
00:32:53.869 --> 00:32:57.720 A:middle L:90%
Why don't we do everything? So they came up

588
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.539 A:middle L:90%
with questions that were challenging for us and sometimes things

589
00:33:00.539 --> 00:33:01.660 A:middle L:90%
to change if it wasn't the right way to do

590
00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:06.670 A:middle L:90%
. I think the fundamental respect of each individual student

591
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:08.710 A:middle L:90%
, as in those early years in the first two

592
00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:13.460 A:middle L:90%
years, as a person who could think about things

593
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.319 A:middle L:90%
and as a person who once he or she reached

594
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.680 A:middle L:90%
a certain level, you just got out of their

595
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.740 A:middle L:90%
way and instead of trying to continue to show them

596
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.430 A:middle L:90%
how to do it. Part of that was sometimes

597
00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:29.220 A:middle L:90%
they were required even first two years to develop their

598
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:31.950 A:middle L:90%
own project, Sometimes they developed a solution and we

599
00:33:31.950 --> 00:33:36.099 A:middle L:90%
took the solutions and gave it to another project class

600
00:33:36.099 --> 00:33:37.220 A:middle L:90%
across the hall to do something else with it,

601
00:33:37.230 --> 00:33:40.259 A:middle L:90%
then they'd come back and show them what you did

602
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.970 A:middle L:90%
, didn't make, whatever. So just I guess

603
00:33:43.970 --> 00:33:45.829 A:middle L:90%
the involvement, one of the things that was very

604
00:33:45.829 --> 00:33:51.680 A:middle L:90%
clear in those days Blacksburg is an isolated community,

605
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.470 A:middle L:90%
there's nothing going on this then, there was nothing

606
00:33:54.470 --> 00:33:58.960 A:middle L:90%
going on here, the students whole life in the

607
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:04.640 A:middle L:90%
Foundation division was that place and those activities in those

608
00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:07.409 A:middle L:90%
first years and the fact that they received respect,

609
00:34:07.409 --> 00:34:09.239 A:middle L:90%
we call them by their last name, not their

610
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:15.849 A:middle L:90%
first it was mr jones or Miss Mcgillicuddy, whatever

611
00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:17.800 A:middle L:90%
, which nobody ever called him by their last name

612
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.690 A:middle L:90%
except calling roll For the K through 12. So

613
00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:23.829 A:middle L:90%
that was another reversal, I think that was the

614
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:29.760 A:middle L:90%
student feeling they had a responsibility to do things other

615
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:31.650 A:middle L:90%
than just fill in the blanks and respond to whatever

616
00:34:31.650 --> 00:34:36.150 A:middle L:90%
they were told and some kind of silly test also

617
00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:39.150 A:middle L:90%
the way they chose the studios first day, you

618
00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:43.210 A:middle L:90%
know how we did it now of course it's all

619
00:34:43.210 --> 00:34:45.190 A:middle L:90%
this and you're assigned to the students walked into the

620
00:34:45.190 --> 00:34:49.019 A:middle L:90%
Foundation division would stand out, say you over there

621
00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:50.329 A:middle L:90%
, you over there, you over there, you

622
00:34:50.329 --> 00:34:52.949 A:middle L:90%
over there. So they went in these four different

623
00:34:52.949 --> 00:34:54.469 A:middle L:90%
rooms from then on, it was first come,

624
00:34:54.469 --> 00:34:57.980 A:middle L:90%
first served. If you want to be in Ferrari

625
00:34:57.980 --> 00:34:59.739 A:middle L:90%
studio, you got here early and put your name

626
00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:00.519 A:middle L:90%
on the desk and once the names are all filled

627
00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:02.250 A:middle L:90%
up, you have to be in somebody else's studio

628
00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:07.269 A:middle L:90%
. We made as a rule, eliminate as much

629
00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:09.130 A:middle L:90%
as possible any piece of paper between you and the

630
00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:13.800 A:middle L:90%
student, no list of who was in the class

631
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:15.829 A:middle L:90%
, no, no handout of what the project was

632
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:20.829 A:middle L:90%
, no syllabus quote unquote, it was all directly

633
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.900 A:middle L:90%
verbal and involved with the student and the student responsibility

634
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:28.590 A:middle L:90%
was tremendous and someone can take, so that was

635
00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:30.880 A:middle L:90%
too much. So anyway, if that helps.

636
00:35:30.889 --> 00:35:34.010 A:middle L:90%
Yeah, and I think that actually speaks to maybe

637
00:35:34.019 --> 00:35:37.860 A:middle L:90%
how things are changing. I think unnecessary bureaucracy of

638
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.530 A:middle L:90%
of uh, you know, large school, there's

639
00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:45.659 A:middle L:90%
no such thing, no such thing as necessary bureaucracy

640
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:51.510 A:middle L:90%
. I've been a dean in four different universities.

641
00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:54.829 A:middle L:90%
There is no such thing, departure tell me when

642
00:35:54.829 --> 00:36:00.630 A:middle L:90%
I became the assistant, he said our job is

643
00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:02.349 A:middle L:90%
to protect the faculty and students from the university.

644
00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:07.750 A:middle L:90%
That's what we do. And he did it.

645
00:36:08.429 --> 00:36:13.849 A:middle L:90%
Yeah. I was in this room out here years

646
00:36:13.849 --> 00:36:17.269 A:middle L:90%
later when Ferrari was teaching back to teaching and I

647
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:20.429 A:middle L:90%
think I was been assistance, I don't remember.

648
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:23.849 A:middle L:90%
But anyway, we had a new provost and the

649
00:36:23.849 --> 00:36:27.230 A:middle L:90%
new provo sent out a memo to each this about

650
00:36:27.230 --> 00:36:30.599 A:middle L:90%
bureaucracy, sent out a memo to each faculty member

651
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:35.469 A:middle L:90%
and the university saying that you would have a printed

652
00:36:35.469 --> 00:36:37.050 A:middle L:90%
syllabus on the first day that you would give to

653
00:36:37.050 --> 00:36:40.659 A:middle L:90%
each student and this syllabus would include all of these

654
00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:45.460 A:middle L:90%
things. I remember like yesterday I read that,

655
00:36:45.829 --> 00:36:47.989 A:middle L:90%
but I read it, I looked at him and

656
00:36:47.989 --> 00:36:52.230 A:middle L:90%
I said, I'm sure I'm sure glad we don't

657
00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:52.769 A:middle L:90%
have to do this stuff. And we both threw

658
00:36:52.769 --> 00:36:57.739 A:middle L:90%
in the trash because Burchard protected us from the,

659
00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:01.719 A:middle L:90%
so you may be right well, but in my

660
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:07.460 A:middle L:90%
opinion, uh, there's always the potential for bureaucracy

661
00:37:07.929 --> 00:37:09.309 A:middle L:90%
. Uh and again, the reason the first two

662
00:37:09.309 --> 00:37:13.199 A:middle L:90%
years worked over in the old high school building particularly

663
00:37:13.210 --> 00:37:15.059 A:middle L:90%
was there was no bureaucracy. Now later Ferrari took

664
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:20.530 A:middle L:90%
over. So he had some bureaucracy. I took

665
00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:23.469 A:middle L:90%
over, I had some bureaucracy until I learned from

666
00:37:23.469 --> 00:37:27.159 A:middle L:90%
bob DNA, how silly it was. Give me

667
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:28.559 A:middle L:90%
a good lesson, I'll tell you about that.

668
00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:31.510 A:middle L:90%
But anyway, uh those days, Burchard was the

669
00:37:31.510 --> 00:37:34.800 A:middle L:90%
protector of bureaucracy. Now, he was hired by

670
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.409 A:middle L:90%
t marshall Hahn who told him to make the best

671
00:37:37.409 --> 00:37:38.349 A:middle L:90%
architecture school in the country and I'll back you up

672
00:37:39.230 --> 00:37:43.219 A:middle L:90%
. So he had some flexibility that Dean's don't have

673
00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:44.969 A:middle L:90%
now, or maybe presidents don't have now. I

674
00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:47.920 A:middle L:90%
don't know what charlie charlie stickers, relations with regions

675
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:51.210 A:middle L:90%
and all that. But anyway, Burchard had free

676
00:37:51.210 --> 00:37:52.559 A:middle L:90%
hand to do what he thought best and he did

677
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.050 A:middle L:90%
what he thought best. And so bureaucracy didn't exist

678
00:37:57.130 --> 00:38:00.099 A:middle L:90%
. Also a critical thing about the organization of the

679
00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:04.340 A:middle L:90%
college at that time was we had no departments.

680
00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:07.429 A:middle L:90%
We're the only college in the university that had no

681
00:38:07.429 --> 00:38:13.340 A:middle L:90%
departments. We had two divisions, basically division of

682
00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:16.789 A:middle L:90%
architectural division of planning and each of the divisions had

683
00:38:16.789 --> 00:38:20.099 A:middle L:90%
an assistant dean in charge of them. And then

684
00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:22.739 A:middle L:90%
there was Burchard and so within that division, there

685
00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:27.550 A:middle L:90%
were no departments. So the tendency for bureaucracy was

686
00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:30.980 A:middle L:90%
much less without departmental structures. As a matter of

687
00:38:30.980 --> 00:38:35.920 A:middle L:90%
fact, when Burchard retired, we intercepted a memorandum

688
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:38.190 A:middle L:90%
from the central administration is is for you, not

689
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:42.349 A:middle L:90%
for this stuff, but that said now we can

690
00:38:42.349 --> 00:38:46.340 A:middle L:90%
get architecture back in control from the big house over

691
00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:49.500 A:middle L:90%
there as we used to come in. But it's

692
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.630 A:middle L:90%
interesting something that's come up a number of times is

693
00:38:52.630 --> 00:38:55.530 A:middle L:90%
that you couldn't you couldn't have Ferrari without version.

694
00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:00.670 A:middle L:90%
I agree for I knew that too. You talk

695
00:39:00.670 --> 00:39:04.610 A:middle L:90%
about that a little bit well. They were they

696
00:39:04.610 --> 00:39:07.300 A:middle L:90%
both understood similar kinds of things. They were both

697
00:39:07.309 --> 00:39:14.570 A:middle L:90%
interested in similar kinds of Oh sure Burchard and Ferrari

698
00:39:14.570 --> 00:39:20.190 A:middle L:90%
were a special relationship that only they knew quite frankly

699
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:23.489 A:middle L:90%
because they were both original thinkers and thought in completely

700
00:39:23.489 --> 00:39:29.090 A:middle L:90%
different ways, came from completely different environments. But

701
00:39:29.090 --> 00:39:34.039 A:middle L:90%
we're both interested in making an educational system within architecture

702
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.150 A:middle L:90%
that was significant. They both wanted to do something

703
00:39:37.150 --> 00:39:43.289 A:middle L:90%
special about architectural education. Burchard because of his experience

704
00:39:43.289 --> 00:39:45.059 A:middle L:90%
with walter Gropius and as a matter of fact,

705
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:47.119 A:middle L:90%
he was Gropius. His student, as you may

706
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:51.900 A:middle L:90%
know, he worked with Gropius the year that grow

707
00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:54.579 A:middle L:90%
priests retired. Burchard said I retired too because I

708
00:39:54.579 --> 00:39:59.090 A:middle L:90%
knew it was over. I had no desire to

709
00:39:59.090 --> 00:40:00.269 A:middle L:90%
stay at Harvard when Burt, when Gropius was not

710
00:40:00.269 --> 00:40:02.190 A:middle L:90%
running things, so he went back to practice.

711
00:40:02.809 --> 00:40:07.489 A:middle L:90%
So when they got together, they would formulate ideas

712
00:40:07.489 --> 00:40:13.530 A:middle L:90%
about architectural education in meetings together and then they would

713
00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:15.530 A:middle L:90%
produce it. Burchard would write articles about it,

714
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:19.639 A:middle L:90%
Ferrari would make diagrams about it and one of the

715
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:24.329 A:middle L:90%
key articles is a article that Burchard published in the

716
00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:28.739 A:middle L:90%
, in the Ai Journal at the time called a

717
00:40:28.739 --> 00:40:31.789 A:middle L:90%
curriculum geared to Our times and that was really the

718
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:38.510 A:middle L:90%
first explanation for the world on what was going on

719
00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:42.000 A:middle L:90%
in this little out of the way place down here

720
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.940 A:middle L:90%
in the school that no one had ever heard of

721
00:40:44.610 --> 00:40:47.260 A:middle L:90%
and Burchard wrote the article and Ferrari made the diagrams

722
00:40:47.260 --> 00:40:52.230 A:middle L:90%
and it was an explanation also for us about what

723
00:40:52.230 --> 00:40:57.079 A:middle L:90%
the concept was. Burchard felt very strongly like Ferrari

724
00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.780 A:middle L:90%
that the individual person's responsibility was the key to success

725
00:41:02.010 --> 00:41:09.639 A:middle L:90%
. He eliminated the many requirements and the curriculum is

726
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:15.090 A:middle L:90%
always an argument in every curricula, design curriculum design

727
00:41:15.090 --> 00:41:16.739 A:middle L:90%
about whether it should be restrictive or open, have

728
00:41:16.739 --> 00:41:20.710 A:middle L:90%
a lot of requirements or a few Burchard was for

729
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.469 A:middle L:90%
open curriculum and of course, so was Ferrari because

730
00:41:23.469 --> 00:41:28.400 A:middle L:90%
the responsibility fell on the student to make something of

731
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.619 A:middle L:90%
it. Burchard was asked, what about the student

732
00:41:31.630 --> 00:41:36.329 A:middle L:90%
that falls through the cracks? What if a student

733
00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:38.489 A:middle L:90%
can't do it and you don't have these requirements to

734
00:41:38.489 --> 00:41:40.650 A:middle L:90%
make sure that they learned this and this and this

735
00:41:42.210 --> 00:41:45.239 A:middle L:90%
? He said, I remember the day he said

736
00:41:45.809 --> 00:41:49.380 A:middle L:90%
, I would hope those students who fall through the

737
00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:52.139 A:middle L:90%
cracks, follow through with some elegance and grace.

738
00:41:54.010 --> 00:41:57.849 A:middle L:90%
It was gonna be fine, was his opinion about

739
00:41:57.860 --> 00:42:01.329 A:middle L:90%
things. So we knew that Ferrari was protected by

740
00:42:01.329 --> 00:42:05.989 A:middle L:90%
Burchard also and therefore we knew we were protected by

741
00:42:05.989 --> 00:42:07.750 A:middle L:90%
virtue, we could do whatever we needed to over

742
00:42:07.750 --> 00:42:10.019 A:middle L:90%
in the high school building is convenient for virtues were

743
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:14.300 A:middle L:90%
way over there and the upper year people didn't come

744
00:42:14.309 --> 00:42:16.730 A:middle L:90%
. Initially, there was great, uh, uh

745
00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:22.030 A:middle L:90%
, I say it Disagreement and the kind words between

746
00:42:22.030 --> 00:42:24.019 A:middle L:90%
the 3rd, 4th and 5th year and the 1st

747
00:42:24.019 --> 00:42:29.429 A:middle L:90%
and 2nd year. They were spoke very hostilely of

748
00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:32.760 A:middle L:90%
our efforts over there once the students got here to

749
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.780 A:middle L:90%
the third year. And Burchard allowed that to happen

750
00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:39.980 A:middle L:90%
until Ferrari was strong enough in the foundation division that

751
00:42:39.980 --> 00:42:45.889 A:middle L:90%
he could make him the first assistant dean. Would

752
00:42:45.889 --> 00:42:47.949 A:middle L:90%
you like to know how that happened? We had

753
00:42:47.949 --> 00:42:54.230 A:middle L:90%
an accreditation visit and the accrediting team came over to

754
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:58.340 A:middle L:90%
see what we're doing over there and they saw everything

755
00:42:58.340 --> 00:43:00.239 A:middle L:90%
they liked everything of course, found out that Burchard

756
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:04.860 A:middle L:90%
had written the accreditation requirements while he was president of

757
00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:07.349 A:middle L:90%
A C. S. A. So surprise surprise

758
00:43:07.349 --> 00:43:08.789 A:middle L:90%
we fell right into them right? And one of

759
00:43:08.789 --> 00:43:12.269 A:middle L:90%
the head of the team was a former partner from

760
00:43:12.269 --> 00:43:15.280 A:middle L:90%
tack. So you know anyway it worked. But

761
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:20.489 A:middle L:90%
they recommended to Burchard that he has some more administration

762
00:43:20.489 --> 00:43:22.739 A:middle L:90%
within the college because at the time it was just

763
00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:27.940 A:middle L:90%
Burchard and an assistant to the Dean Jack out here

764
00:43:27.949 --> 00:43:30.530 A:middle L:90%
. And so Bircher decided to have a two division

765
00:43:30.530 --> 00:43:34.900 A:middle L:90%
assistant dean for the architecture division, Assistant Dean for

766
00:43:34.900 --> 00:43:38.389 A:middle L:90%
the planning division. Ferrari was on the summer,

767
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:42.469 A:middle L:90%
we were in Salzburg together I was teaching with him

768
00:43:42.469 --> 00:43:44.550 A:middle L:90%
that particular summer. Didn't do it often did it

769
00:43:44.550 --> 00:43:49.340 A:middle L:90%
that summer and he got a call or a letter

770
00:43:49.340 --> 00:43:52.190 A:middle L:90%
, a telegram from Burchard saying that he was going

771
00:43:52.190 --> 00:43:54.079 A:middle L:90%
to have an assistant dean and he would like Ferrari

772
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.610 A:middle L:90%
to be the assistant dean. And I remember up

773
00:43:58.610 --> 00:44:02.090 A:middle L:90%
in the house over there, he said, should

774
00:44:02.090 --> 00:44:05.179 A:middle L:90%
I do this? I don't want to be a

775
00:44:05.190 --> 00:44:07.650 A:middle L:90%
dancer. I'm a teacher. All right. All

776
00:44:07.650 --> 00:44:09.760 A:middle L:90%
this stuff. I said, look, who's he

777
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.719 A:middle L:90%
gonna give it to if you don't do it.

778
00:44:13.690 --> 00:44:15.900 A:middle L:90%
He said, oh, it's gonna be so and

779
00:44:15.900 --> 00:44:19.639 A:middle L:90%
so now missing exactly now. What's he gonna do

780
00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:21.710 A:middle L:90%
once he gets in charge? He said he's going

781
00:44:21.710 --> 00:44:23.349 A:middle L:90%
to ruin us. So what you can do so

782
00:44:23.349 --> 00:44:25.130 A:middle L:90%
far, I said, I'd better take it as

783
00:44:25.130 --> 00:44:29.559 A:middle L:90%
a defensive mode. And that's what happened. And

784
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:30.269 A:middle L:90%
as a humorous one, you don't need to use

785
00:44:30.269 --> 00:44:31.860 A:middle L:90%
this in the tape. But I'll tell you because

786
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:37.349 A:middle L:90%
it's in my memory a year later, I'm walking

787
00:44:37.349 --> 00:44:38.880 A:middle L:90%
across the hall with Dean, birch it over here

788
00:44:38.889 --> 00:44:43.789 A:middle L:90%
and we're talking about the accreditation. But for some

789
00:44:43.789 --> 00:44:45.019 A:middle L:90%
reason. And he said, you know, they

790
00:44:45.019 --> 00:44:46.130 A:middle L:90%
told me that I was working too hard and I

791
00:44:46.130 --> 00:44:52.929 A:middle L:90%
needed some administrative help. And so I pointed Ferraris

792
00:44:52.929 --> 00:44:54.880 A:middle L:90%
assistant Dean and you can see right into where his

793
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.079 A:middle L:90%
office used to be. We probably was sitting with

794
00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:04.010 A:middle L:90%
his feet up on the desk of his head and

795
00:45:04.010 --> 00:45:07.239 A:middle L:90%
he said, you see what happen. He said

796
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:08.750 A:middle L:90%
he's made more work for me than anybody ever could

797
00:45:08.750 --> 00:45:13.639 A:middle L:90%
have. Uh, imagine. But anyway, Ferrari

798
00:45:13.650 --> 00:45:17.380 A:middle L:90%
was Assistant Dean for a year and he no decided

799
00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:19.980 A:middle L:90%
he didn't want to do that anymore. So he

800
00:45:19.980 --> 00:45:21.349 A:middle L:90%
asked me if I would do it. I said

801
00:45:21.349 --> 00:45:22.420 A:middle L:90%
, I don't know anything about being assistant team.

802
00:45:22.789 --> 00:45:28.079 A:middle L:90%
So he said, well Burchard said you'll be acting

803
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:29.750 A:middle L:90%
assistant dean. All you have to do is act

804
00:45:29.750 --> 00:45:30.260 A:middle L:90%
like one is that I can do that. And

805
00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:32.769 A:middle L:90%
I got one. So that's how I became an

806
00:45:32.769 --> 00:45:37.230 A:middle L:90%
administration. Worked for five years with Charles Burchard and

807
00:45:37.230 --> 00:45:39.010 A:middle L:90%
to diverge for a moment and talk about Charles Burchard

808
00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:43.010 A:middle L:90%
. He's one of the few people I've ever known

809
00:45:44.289 --> 00:45:46.719 A:middle L:90%
that I never heard him say a single negative word

810
00:45:49.090 --> 00:45:53.489 A:middle L:90%
about another human being. Zero. Someone would do

811
00:45:53.489 --> 00:45:57.019 A:middle L:90%
something to him against him or whatever. Well,

812
00:45:57.019 --> 00:46:00.090 A:middle L:90%
he's just a little confused. He'll get over it

813
00:46:00.099 --> 00:46:01.190 A:middle L:90%
or well, I didn't think it was that serious

814
00:46:01.190 --> 00:46:05.110 A:middle L:90%
or whatever. Someone was not performing their job.

815
00:46:05.110 --> 00:46:07.139 A:middle L:90%
Maybe he's the wrong position. Maybe we ought to

816
00:46:07.150 --> 00:46:07.800 A:middle L:90%
find a way for him to do something else.

817
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:14.780 A:middle L:90%
Very few faculty members did not make tenure because he

818
00:46:14.780 --> 00:46:16.059 A:middle L:90%
could see if they were not gonna make it and

819
00:46:16.059 --> 00:46:19.880 A:middle L:90%
he'd find him a job somewhere else. I know

820
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.710 A:middle L:90%
of several three particularly that he did that at a

821
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:25.429 A:middle L:90%
university. The pressure wasn't wasn't up so great.

822
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:30.010 A:middle L:90%
So he looked out wonderfully for other human beings and

823
00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:32.869 A:middle L:90%
he was a real pleasure to work with as a

824
00:46:32.869 --> 00:46:35.929 A:middle L:90%
dino. Take a couple of birchwood stories. Is

825
00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:38.650 A:middle L:90%
that okay? So I'm his assistant dean for five

826
00:46:38.650 --> 00:46:40.510 A:middle L:90%
years. I have all these ideas about this,

827
00:46:40.510 --> 00:46:44.519 A:middle L:90%
that and the other, he had his desk in

828
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:47.409 A:middle L:90%
here in the Dean's office, He would sit looking

829
00:46:47.409 --> 00:46:51.320 A:middle L:90%
out on the plaza out there and so you'd come

830
00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:52.510 A:middle L:90%
and sit down across front and talk to about things

831
00:46:52.510 --> 00:46:55.719 A:middle L:90%
. And so I had all kinds of really need

832
00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:58.619 A:middle L:90%
ideas I thought. So I tell him some of

833
00:46:58.619 --> 00:47:00.849 A:middle L:90%
these ideas and he'd listen and when I finished I

834
00:47:00.849 --> 00:47:04.809 A:middle L:90%
say, what do you think he'd say? Who's

835
00:47:04.809 --> 00:47:07.150 A:middle L:90%
that coming across applause out, Do you know who

836
00:47:07.150 --> 00:47:08.920 A:middle L:90%
that, who is that? He never he never

837
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.929 A:middle L:90%
would say that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard of

838
00:47:12.929 --> 00:47:14.690 A:middle L:90%
. We'll never do that. He would always say

839
00:47:14.690 --> 00:47:15.679 A:middle L:90%
that. But if he liked it he'd say oh

840
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.179 A:middle L:90%
that's interesting. How do you think we ought to

841
00:47:17.179 --> 00:47:21.449 A:middle L:90%
implement it? But always you could tell if it's

842
00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:22.889 A:middle L:90%
a good idea, not a good idea. Who's

843
00:47:22.889 --> 00:47:24.989 A:middle L:90%
that coming across the plaza. And finally I had

844
00:47:24.989 --> 00:47:28.210 A:middle L:90%
a nerve at work and whether 23 years I said

845
00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:30.360 A:middle L:90%
Deon Burton, but it's a good idea we talked

846
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:34.050 A:middle L:90%
about, it was not so good. Somebody interesting

847
00:47:34.059 --> 00:47:37.170 A:middle L:90%
. He said I'll call that selective hearing. But

848
00:47:37.170 --> 00:47:40.739 A:middle L:90%
he was a wonderful person with him to work knew

849
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:45.199 A:middle L:90%
the university completely when we didn't have any money troubles

850
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:46.340 A:middle L:90%
which we often did in our division, he'd say

851
00:47:46.349 --> 00:47:49.449 A:middle L:90%
I know where their pots of money around. You

852
00:47:49.449 --> 00:47:50.860 A:middle L:90%
really need, what do you need it for.

853
00:47:50.969 --> 00:47:53.199 A:middle L:90%
Okay, so we go to. Um but it

854
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:55.719 A:middle L:90%
was a wonderful experience working with him. He was

855
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:59.849 A:middle L:90%
always positive, always thinking at the big scale.

856
00:48:00.130 --> 00:48:05.469 A:middle L:90%
Never cared much about the local squabbles or situations and

857
00:48:05.469 --> 00:48:08.349 A:middle L:90%
he had the vision to build the school and he

858
00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:15.000 A:middle L:90%
had the vision because he understood what Gropius was about

859
00:48:15.570 --> 00:48:17.010 A:middle L:90%
, both in the bauhaus and at Harvard and he

860
00:48:17.010 --> 00:48:21.989 A:middle L:90%
took those good ideas and use them when we started

861
00:48:21.989 --> 00:48:23.989 A:middle L:90%
the alexandria campus. That came from his idea of

862
00:48:23.989 --> 00:48:29.739 A:middle L:90%
what he called Beachhead Beachhead campuses. Burchard has the

863
00:48:29.739 --> 00:48:35.070 A:middle L:90%
idea that universities were too restrictive for innovative things to

864
00:48:35.070 --> 00:48:38.280 A:middle L:90%
happen in education. So he said what we should

865
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:42.889 A:middle L:90%
have is beachhead campuses that are out in the city

866
00:48:43.469 --> 00:48:46.800 A:middle L:90%
that are small but our operative so they can learn

867
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.670 A:middle L:90%
from the city and operate within the context of the

868
00:48:50.670 --> 00:48:53.130 A:middle L:90%
city. And so after he retired, I was

869
00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:57.530 A:middle L:90%
able to talk the then provost john Wilson is a

870
00:48:57.530 --> 00:49:00.010 A:middle L:90%
wonderful provost into giving us the money to start the

871
00:49:00.010 --> 00:49:04.750 A:middle L:90%
alexandria center as a beachhead campus and it was off

872
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.400 A:middle L:90%
birchers model of beachhead campuses which he had written about

873
00:49:08.070 --> 00:49:15.030 A:middle L:90%
extremely visionary, hard to pin down on specifics and

874
00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:15.920 A:middle L:90%
it wasn't to re avoid him, he just didn't

875
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:20.690 A:middle L:90%
care about him, It just weren't earning Israel as

876
00:49:20.690 --> 00:49:22.809 A:middle L:90%
a matter of fact the Burchard story, knowing Remember

877
00:49:22.809 --> 00:49:25.619 A:middle L:90%
this one I guess, but Burchard was dean here

878
00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:29.250 A:middle L:90%
for I think 15 years of some long period like

879
00:49:29.250 --> 00:49:35.039 A:middle L:90%
that had started the college, we had a graduation

880
00:49:35.050 --> 00:49:38.230 A:middle L:90%
ceremony here after the one in the university that was

881
00:49:38.230 --> 00:49:40.880 A:middle L:90%
centered in what used to be the library Rose right

882
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:45.809 A:middle L:90%
here and we would have the graduates come out and

883
00:49:45.809 --> 00:49:47.670 A:middle L:90%
have food and if when it's time to get their

884
00:49:47.670 --> 00:49:52.739 A:middle L:90%
diploma, they would walk in and meet Burchard personally

885
00:49:52.750 --> 00:49:53.880 A:middle L:90%
with their parents and shake their hand, give them

886
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.309 A:middle L:90%
diploma. So it wasn't a line or calling names

887
00:49:57.309 --> 00:49:59.900 A:middle L:90%
and all of that. They could have their parents

888
00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:04.250 A:middle L:90%
who talked with him. So, so he's announced

889
00:50:04.250 --> 00:50:07.780 A:middle L:90%
his retirement. And so I think to myself,

890
00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:13.570 A:middle L:90%
Charles birch words made this place, Everybody loves him

891
00:50:13.570 --> 00:50:15.920 A:middle L:90%
, respects him. It's just not right that his

892
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:20.500 A:middle L:90%
last act. Yes. I greeting people individually and

893
00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:22.099 A:middle L:90%
walking out and getting in this old white mustang and

894
00:50:22.099 --> 00:50:25.550 A:middle L:90%
driving home that be it. I thought to myself

895
00:50:25.550 --> 00:50:29.099 A:middle L:90%
now, what would be the proper goodbye for Charles

896
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:32.530 A:middle L:90%
Burchard? I called a man that had hot air

897
00:50:32.530 --> 00:50:36.949 A:middle L:90%
balloons and ask him if he could put a hot

898
00:50:36.949 --> 00:50:38.769 A:middle L:90%
air balloon out here in this plaza. He came

899
00:50:38.769 --> 00:50:42.210 A:middle L:90%
out and say, sure, how much would it

900
00:50:42.210 --> 00:50:44.469 A:middle L:90%
cost? He told me how much else it was

901
00:50:44.469 --> 00:50:47.460 A:middle L:90%
enrollment to pay for it. The concept was while

902
00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:51.210 A:middle L:90%
he was in there fooling with the students graduation,

903
00:50:51.460 --> 00:50:54.400 A:middle L:90%
hot air balloon would fill up out here when everything

904
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.190 A:middle L:90%
was over. He'd walk out in the hall,

905
00:50:57.199 --> 00:50:59.019 A:middle L:90%
we'd give him an applause. He'd walk out,

906
00:50:59.019 --> 00:51:01.880 A:middle L:90%
get in the hot air balloon rise above and wave

907
00:51:01.889 --> 00:51:05.469 A:middle L:90%
and we would see him ascending and heaven would be

908
00:51:05.469 --> 00:51:07.989 A:middle L:90%
the last thing we ever saw Charles aperture. Right

909
00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:10.429 A:middle L:90%
? And so one of the staff members who knew

910
00:51:10.429 --> 00:51:14.780 A:middle L:90%
him well, nobody would tell it was a secret

911
00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:17.110 A:middle L:90%
. And she said he's not gonna get in the

912
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:20.539 A:middle L:90%
bullet. What if you have this big balloon and

913
00:51:20.539 --> 00:51:22.070 A:middle L:90%
he won't get in it. What are you gonna

914
00:51:22.070 --> 00:51:23.869 A:middle L:90%
do then? You better tell him. And so

915
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:27.239 A:middle L:90%
I said, you're right because if he what an

916
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:29.170 A:middle L:90%
anti climax, right? If he will refuse to

917
00:51:29.170 --> 00:51:30.900 A:middle L:90%
get in the building. And I told him,

918
00:51:30.900 --> 00:51:31.980 A:middle L:90%
I said this is all safe about what he said

919
00:51:32.460 --> 00:51:37.159 A:middle L:90%
, not my style, he wouldn't let us do

920
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:39.320 A:middle L:90%
it. So that was the intended good Baffert Charles

921
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:42.769 A:middle L:90%
Bircher, but we couldn't quite put it on.

922
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:45.730 A:middle L:90%
But anyway, it was wonderful working with him because

923
00:51:45.730 --> 00:51:52.010 A:middle L:90%
his primary issue was to build this college, that's

924
00:51:52.010 --> 00:51:54.300 A:middle L:90%
what it was all about. And he devoted all

925
00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:58.250 A:middle L:90%
this time and energies to it and he focused it

926
00:51:58.250 --> 00:52:00.920 A:middle L:90%
in every way he could and hired the best people

927
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:02.980 A:middle L:90%
. His strategy was how the best people possible and

928
00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:07.030 A:middle L:90%
two have them do that. I'm rambling on things

929
00:52:07.030 --> 00:52:08.789 A:middle L:90%
that you may not be interested. It's all great

930
00:52:08.789 --> 00:52:12.760 A:middle L:90%
stuff. It's wonderful. I mean it's you know

931
00:52:12.769 --> 00:52:15.960 A:middle L:90%
, I don't really know these stories are what's gonna

932
00:52:15.969 --> 00:52:19.929 A:middle L:90%
make this film, Who does. But anyway,

933
00:52:19.929 --> 00:52:21.760 A:middle L:90%
it's fun to tell them because some of them,

934
00:52:22.449 --> 00:52:23.909 A:middle L:90%
I think I may be the last one who knew

935
00:52:23.909 --> 00:52:25.840 A:middle L:90%
that one was about this room and then you want

936
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.980 A:middle L:90%
to use this one. But I have to tell

937
00:52:27.980 --> 00:52:29.829 A:middle L:90%
you because it tickles me. So and one of

938
00:52:29.829 --> 00:52:34.000 A:middle L:90%
the accreditation visits we made full size cutouts of Charles

939
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:38.010 A:middle L:90%
Burchard. Do you know the stone and on masonite

940
00:52:38.019 --> 00:52:40.099 A:middle L:90%
So it's a tease to him in a way.

941
00:52:40.099 --> 00:52:43.079 A:middle L:90%
So the crediting team came in there. He was

942
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:46.769 A:middle L:90%
and so well this room used to have heavy drapes

943
00:52:46.780 --> 00:52:52.280 A:middle L:90%
on it and so finished house assistant I brought in

944
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:52.889 A:middle L:90%
here, put it in here. Well since he

945
00:52:52.889 --> 00:52:54.670 A:middle L:90%
started in here, this is where he had meetings

946
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:58.880 A:middle L:90%
. He put it behind the drapes facing out.

947
00:53:00.650 --> 00:53:05.690 A:middle L:90%
He gets a new secretary, new secretary comes in

948
00:53:05.690 --> 00:53:07.650 A:middle L:90%
the first day the dot tries to please him as

949
00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:10.719 A:middle L:90%
much as he can etcetera, stays after everybody.

950
00:53:10.730 --> 00:53:15.869 A:middle L:90%
Uh He leaves. No so she looks in here

951
00:53:15.869 --> 00:53:19.110 A:middle L:90%
and make sure there's nobody here and everybody's cleared out

952
00:53:19.110 --> 00:53:21.510 A:middle L:90%
. She goes out and she locks the door Bircher

953
00:53:21.510 --> 00:53:22.630 A:middle L:90%
didn't have a key because he never opened the door

954
00:53:22.630 --> 00:53:24.440 A:middle L:90%
so he didn't keep keys. Is that kind of

955
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:28.630 A:middle L:90%
person? So she goes out and gets in a

956
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:30.869 A:middle L:90%
car in the parking lot and looks up and sees

957
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.590 A:middle L:90%
Dean barker standing in this room. I've locked the

958
00:53:34.590 --> 00:53:37.110 A:middle L:90%
Dean in the room first day and I've locked him

959
00:53:37.110 --> 00:53:38.210 A:middle L:90%
in the room. He can't get out. That's

960
00:53:38.210 --> 00:53:39.599 A:middle L:90%
the way the locks work. You can get out

961
00:53:39.610 --> 00:53:42.760 A:middle L:90%
. So she ran up here look to the room's

962
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.230 A:middle L:90%
empty, it was about how it occurred. She

963
00:53:45.230 --> 00:53:46.739 A:middle L:90%
didn't know his photograph ran back out so he's still

964
00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:50.480 A:middle L:90%
in there. Remember God and finally found them found

965
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:52.489 A:middle L:90%
the picture but she was sure she had locked the

966
00:53:52.489 --> 00:53:53.469 A:middle L:90%
day and into the office for the first time.

967
00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:57.710 A:middle L:90%
She threw it away. Uh huh But at any

968
00:53:57.710 --> 00:53:59.880 A:middle L:90%
rate, he was a wonderful person with him to

969
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:02.010 A:middle L:90%
work. What else? I think we're great.

970
00:54:02.010 --> 00:54:05.460 A:middle L:90%
I mean anything else you want to share about,

971
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:07.469 A:middle L:90%
you know, you have, you have an idea

972
00:54:07.469 --> 00:54:08.969 A:middle L:90%
what the film is about, Anything you want to

973
00:54:08.969 --> 00:54:15.590 A:middle L:90%
talk about transitioning. Well there was a transition from

974
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:20.409 A:middle L:90%
the foundation division being in the old high school and

975
00:54:20.420 --> 00:54:22.710 A:middle L:90%
Ferrari being over there to win. He moved over

976
00:54:22.710 --> 00:54:24.750 A:middle L:90%
here, he moved over as assistant dean as I

977
00:54:24.750 --> 00:54:28.070 A:middle L:90%
mentioned and Burt would put him in charge. I

978
00:54:28.070 --> 00:54:29.920 A:middle L:90%
think it's just a couple of years, I don't

979
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:32.130 A:middle L:90%
remember exactly but he saw this as an opportunity to

980
00:54:32.130 --> 00:54:36.480 A:middle L:90%
change the 3rd, 4th and 5th year I spent

981
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:37.940 A:middle L:90%
a year away 72 73. So I'm not sure

982
00:54:37.940 --> 00:54:40.090 A:middle L:90%
exactly when those times work, but when I came

983
00:54:40.090 --> 00:54:44.289 A:middle L:90%
back in 73 he was over here and he put

984
00:54:44.289 --> 00:54:45.889 A:middle L:90%
Harold Hill in charge of the third year and jean

985
00:54:45.889 --> 00:54:47.880 A:middle L:90%
anger in charge of the 4th and 5th year and

986
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:52.099 A:middle L:90%
me in charge of the first two years so that

987
00:54:52.099 --> 00:54:57.210 A:middle L:90%
we could make the whole college operate like. And

988
00:54:57.210 --> 00:55:00.190 A:middle L:90%
the concept and the idea that was this before him

989
00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:02.250 A:middle L:90%
, we couldn't do that because the people running the

990
00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:06.340 A:middle L:90%
upper years didn't believe in any of that. So

991
00:55:06.349 --> 00:55:08.420 A:middle L:90%
Harold organized a third year, that was the best

992
00:55:08.420 --> 00:55:14.079 A:middle L:90%
I've ever seen a team concept and jane organized the

993
00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:15.760 A:middle L:90%
4th and 5th year in a wonderful concept as well

994
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:20.559 A:middle L:90%
And we operated with three different faculty groups and three

995
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.400 A:middle L:90%
different strategies, et cetera, were still a a

996
00:55:23.409 --> 00:55:28.059 A:middle L:90%
division of the department. Um but it's an interesting

997
00:55:28.059 --> 00:55:32.340 A:middle L:90%
story, the way Ferrari brought Harold Hill to teach

998
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:35.519 A:middle L:90%
with us and the foundation division and then jean to

999
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:37.969 A:middle L:90%
teach with and foundation division. So we're all teaching

1000
00:55:37.969 --> 00:55:40.400 A:middle L:90%
over there at first and they to learned about how

1001
00:55:40.409 --> 00:55:43.900 A:middle L:90%
things worked in their own special way. They're both

1002
00:55:43.900 --> 00:55:46.059 A:middle L:90%
are excellent teachers, jean still is excellent teachers in

1003
00:55:46.059 --> 00:55:49.610 A:middle L:90%
their own light, in different ways to to teach

1004
00:55:49.610 --> 00:55:52.639 A:middle L:90%
. Of course, what happened that I thought it

1005
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:57.559 A:middle L:90%
was one amusing story was that the three of us

1006
00:55:57.570 --> 00:56:00.280 A:middle L:90%
were brought here by Ferrari because we're all in the

1007
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:01.230 A:middle L:90%
same class at Auburn, more or less than he

1008
00:56:01.230 --> 00:56:05.809 A:middle L:90%
knew us all and he wanted to establish the people

1009
00:56:05.809 --> 00:56:07.880 A:middle L:90%
that he knew and could trust an operation of things

1010
00:56:08.329 --> 00:56:12.460 A:middle L:90%
. We were all sitting over in the side around

1011
00:56:12.460 --> 00:56:16.969 A:middle L:90%
the coffee table one day and Dean Burchard came in

1012
00:56:16.969 --> 00:56:22.110 A:middle L:90%
with Bill Brown and he said I'd like to introduce

1013
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:25.050 A:middle L:90%
a new faculty member to you guys. Bill Brown

1014
00:56:25.429 --> 00:56:29.530 A:middle L:90%
and we all burst out laughing, was Bill Brown

1015
00:56:29.530 --> 00:56:31.550 A:middle L:90%
was our classmate, but Berkshire didn't know it,

1016
00:56:32.030 --> 00:56:36.610 A:middle L:90%
He hired Bill because he worked for Ben Thompson and

1017
00:56:36.610 --> 00:56:38.869 A:middle L:90%
Bill applied and never mentioned anything about being with any

1018
00:56:38.869 --> 00:56:43.150 A:middle L:90%
of us. And so Burchard said, oh no

1019
00:56:43.150 --> 00:56:46.030 A:middle L:90%
, I brought another one a knowing. So that's

1020
00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:51.559 A:middle L:90%
how the four of us got here and how Ferrari

1021
00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:54.250 A:middle L:90%
made it so that each of the 3, 3

1022
00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:58.829 A:middle L:90%
divisions, foundation division, professional division, as we

1023
00:56:58.829 --> 00:57:05.039 A:middle L:90%
call it in upper division were managed by those guys

1024
00:57:06.730 --> 00:57:12.769 A:middle L:90%
. Then excellent students who had come through like bob

1025
00:57:12.769 --> 00:57:17.099 A:middle L:90%
and Donna DNA and Ron daniel and jay Stoeckel started

1026
00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:21.369 A:middle L:90%
to come back and be faculty members all after they

1027
00:57:21.369 --> 00:57:22.769 A:middle L:90%
had practiced. As a matter of fact, get

1028
00:57:22.769 --> 00:57:24.500 A:middle L:90%
back to your other question and had gone off in

1029
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:29.719 A:middle L:90%
practice and we brought them back in various ways and

1030
00:57:29.719 --> 00:57:37.800 A:middle L:90%
they were all significant contributors while we're here. The

1031
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:42.300 A:middle L:90%
changes that happened after we moved over to Cobo Hall

1032
00:57:42.309 --> 00:57:45.579 A:middle L:90%
were interesting because they were learning experiences and how to

1033
00:57:45.579 --> 00:57:51.400 A:middle L:90%
adjust things. And then after Burchard retired and I

1034
00:57:51.409 --> 00:57:55.199 A:middle L:90%
stopped being the assistant dean and started the program up

1035
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:59.309 A:middle L:90%
in alexandria. For me, that was a new

1036
00:57:59.309 --> 00:58:00.679 A:middle L:90%
opportunity, as I mentioned, to build on birch

1037
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:06.269 A:middle L:90%
whose idea of a beachhead campus and that too,

1038
00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:09.380 A:middle L:90%
we were able to operate and the old tradition of

1039
00:58:09.389 --> 00:58:13.070 A:middle L:90%
, let's just do it and not worry about whether

1040
00:58:13.070 --> 00:58:15.840 A:middle L:90%
it'll work or not. And we did and it

1041
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:19.099 A:middle L:90%
did. And then after Greg hunted, I started

1042
00:58:19.099 --> 00:58:22.559 A:middle L:90%
that and john hope moved up after that and he's

1043
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:25.840 A:middle L:90%
run it and it's still very, very successful program

1044
00:58:27.219 --> 00:58:29.210 A:middle L:90%
. And Burchard was right, you can do things

1045
00:58:29.210 --> 00:58:31.590 A:middle L:90%
away from the mother ship that you can't do at

1046
00:58:31.590 --> 00:58:36.460 A:middle L:90%
home and you can do innovative teaching strategies and structural

1047
00:58:36.460 --> 00:58:40.010 A:middle L:90%
strategies that you couldn't do otherwise. So I probably

1048
00:58:40.019 --> 00:58:43.309 A:middle L:90%
tired you from all this list. I mean,

1049
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:46.500 A:middle L:90%
anything else in particular your incident, I definitely got

1050
00:58:46.510 --> 00:58:49.619 A:middle L:90%
great, you know, I think we're solid.

1051
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:52.539 A:middle L:90%
If there's nothing else you want to throw in there

1052
00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:55.980 A:middle L:90%
. I'll tell you one last thing about Charles Burchard

1053
00:58:55.980 --> 00:58:59.539 A:middle L:90%
when we had the student riots, I don't know

1054
00:58:59.550 --> 00:59:00.840 A:middle L:90%
whether anybody is talking about those or not, but

1055
00:59:01.420 --> 00:59:06.650 A:middle L:90%
this is in Kent state years when the National Guard

1056
00:59:07.019 --> 00:59:09.829 A:middle L:90%
shot the kids stay students and all campuses everywhere.

1057
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:15.869 A:middle L:90%
This one too, Burchard went home and took his

1058
00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:23.039 A:middle L:90%
phone off the hook so so he wouldn't be called

1059
00:59:23.619 --> 00:59:27.860 A:middle L:90%
was very wise. Students occupied this building and locked

1060
00:59:27.860 --> 00:59:30.119 A:middle L:90%
it up. Justice had locked up all kinds of

1061
00:59:30.130 --> 00:59:35.250 A:middle L:90%
building on the one down the street. The police

1062
00:59:35.250 --> 00:59:37.969 A:middle L:90%
came in and one of the liberal arts buildings,

1063
00:59:37.969 --> 00:59:45.429 A:middle L:90%
the police came in and pulled out trucks up and

1064
00:59:45.429 --> 00:59:47.130 A:middle L:90%
yank the doors off to go in and arrest all

1065
00:59:47.130 --> 00:59:52.059 A:middle L:90%
the students. Burchard came in and knocked on the

1066
00:59:52.070 --> 00:59:54.860 A:middle L:90%
door. He came to work the next day and

1067
00:59:54.860 --> 00:59:57.980 A:middle L:90%
he didn't know they were protesting, but the doors

1068
00:59:57.980 --> 00:59:59.989 A:middle L:90%
were locked and that's full of students out there.

1069
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:01.199 A:middle L:90%
So he knocked on the door and they opened the

1070
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:05.090 A:middle L:90%
door. He said, what's going on here?

1071
01:00:05.090 --> 01:00:07.050 A:middle L:90%
So why don't you come and talk to me?

1072
01:00:07.059 --> 01:00:09.440 A:middle L:90%
But everybody else works. So he just handled it

1073
01:00:10.010 --> 01:00:14.329 A:middle L:90%
without any problem because the students had great respect and

1074
01:00:14.329 --> 01:00:15.309 A:middle L:90%
they said, we tried to call you before we

1075
01:00:15.309 --> 01:00:17.630 A:middle L:90%
occupied the building, but we couldn't get you on

1076
01:00:17.630 --> 01:00:22.780 A:middle L:90%
the phone. That's okay. So another story about

1077
01:00:22.789 --> 01:00:30.250 A:middle L:90%
his managerial insights and abilities. He simply was not

1078
01:00:30.250 --> 01:00:36.969 A:middle L:90%
a confrontational person and did not do confrontations and was

1079
01:00:36.969 --> 01:00:40.329 A:middle L:90%
so direct and honest with everyone that he developed great

1080
01:00:40.329 --> 01:00:44.170 A:middle L:90%
respect. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to

1081
01:00:44.179 --> 01:00:45.309 A:middle L:90%
thank you. I hope this all works fantastic.

1082
01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:52.960 A:middle L:90%
I appreciate. There are two things that I need

1083
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:57.110 A:middle L:90%
to mention that we're, I believe fundamental in the

1084
01:00:57.110 --> 01:01:00.929 A:middle L:90%
success of the early years of the college. One

1085
01:01:00.929 --> 01:01:04.469 A:middle L:90%
of them was the summer program that Herbert, Cromelin

1086
01:01:04.469 --> 01:01:08.469 A:middle L:90%
Olivia Ferrari established in Salzburg. The summer program was

1087
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:12.679 A:middle L:90%
originally established so that one of them took the first

1088
01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:14.539 A:middle L:90%
half of the summer, then there was a trip

1089
01:01:14.539 --> 01:01:15.420 A:middle L:90%
and the other one took the second half of the

1090
01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:19.329 A:middle L:90%
summer so they could go back and be in europe

1091
01:01:19.340 --> 01:01:22.449 A:middle L:90%
for the summer. But the setup was that any

1092
01:01:22.449 --> 01:01:24.929 A:middle L:90%
student could go no matter what year, no matter

1093
01:01:24.929 --> 01:01:27.780 A:middle L:90%
whether there were a good student or not, a

1094
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:30.170 A:middle L:90%
good student, anyone that wanted to go could study

1095
01:01:30.170 --> 01:01:34.090 A:middle L:90%
there, I had the opportunity to go a couple

1096
01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:36.440 A:middle L:90%
of times myself and learned a great deal. But

1097
01:01:37.110 --> 01:01:39.969 A:middle L:90%
the important thing is I saw firsthand the power of

1098
01:01:39.969 --> 01:01:45.019 A:middle L:90%
Ferrari and Cromwell in europe. The fact that any

1099
01:01:45.019 --> 01:01:47.050 A:middle L:90%
student could go meant that sometimes the person was the

1100
01:01:47.050 --> 01:01:50.690 A:middle L:90%
second year students, sometimes 3rd, 4th or fifth

1101
01:01:50.690 --> 01:01:53.130 A:middle L:90%
year students, they were all mixed together. They

1102
01:01:53.130 --> 01:01:59.190 A:middle L:90%
learned about architecture firsthand by actually seeing it actually being

1103
01:01:59.190 --> 01:02:02.119 A:middle L:90%
there And an additional sum in addition, some significant

1104
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:07.110 A:middle L:90%
life experiences as well. The summer that I was

1105
01:02:07.110 --> 01:02:09.780 A:middle L:90%
there, we took a nearly month long trip through

1106
01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:14.820 A:middle L:90%
at that time, the communist countries went to Bulgaria

1107
01:02:14.829 --> 01:02:20.329 A:middle L:90%
and to um Czechoslovakia and several of the Communist countries

1108
01:02:20.329 --> 01:02:22.000 A:middle L:90%
. And so students can see firsthand what life was

1109
01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:25.469 A:middle L:90%
like there all the time studying architecture. But the

1110
01:02:25.469 --> 01:02:29.460 A:middle L:90%
important thing was that those students that got into the

1111
01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:31.210 A:middle L:90%
summer program when they came back, they were able

1112
01:02:31.210 --> 01:02:36.730 A:middle L:90%
to bring experiences to the other students. This experience

1113
01:02:36.739 --> 01:02:40.750 A:middle L:90%
led me to establish international programs wherever I went from

1114
01:02:40.750 --> 01:02:45.590 A:middle L:90%
then on, because I understood the strength of studying

1115
01:02:45.590 --> 01:02:51.239 A:middle L:90%
abroad within the context of the educational system you were

1116
01:02:51.239 --> 01:02:54.679 A:middle L:90%
in in the United States is very powerful experience.

1117
01:02:55.300 --> 01:02:59.530 A:middle L:90%
The second thing that I learned in that experience in

1118
01:02:59.530 --> 01:03:02.510 A:middle L:90%
the first two years and particularly as the students there

1119
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:07.360 A:middle L:90%
developed later on was that once you give students the

1120
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:12.179 A:middle L:90%
freedom to explore, you have no idea what amazing

1121
01:03:12.179 --> 01:03:15.630 A:middle L:90%
things they're going to do. two of the students

1122
01:03:15.630 --> 01:03:20.730 A:middle L:90%
particularly that are here now in their second year,

1123
01:03:21.300 --> 01:03:25.119 A:middle L:90%
started becoming interested in those days in solar energy.

1124
01:03:25.699 --> 01:03:29.909 A:middle L:90%
Uh huh. By the time they were in the

1125
01:03:29.909 --> 01:03:31.420 A:middle L:90%
upper years, they decided that they should write a

1126
01:03:31.420 --> 01:03:36.159 A:middle L:90%
book about solar energy. They asked Ferrari to help

1127
01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:42.039 A:middle L:90%
pay for the publication because no publisher was interested and

1128
01:03:42.039 --> 01:03:44.369 A:middle L:90%
they published this book and it's one of the first

1129
01:03:44.369 --> 01:03:47.460 A:middle L:90%
books on solar design that was done in their fifth

1130
01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:52.690 A:middle L:90%
year as students, undergraduate students in those days.

1131
01:03:52.690 --> 01:03:54.820 A:middle L:90%
And State University has never published anything, never even

1132
01:03:54.820 --> 01:03:59.730 A:middle L:90%
thought about it. That book was published by them

1133
01:03:59.730 --> 01:04:02.449 A:middle L:90%
. But it became successful and the success then had

1134
01:04:02.449 --> 01:04:06.460 A:middle L:90%
a regular publisher pick it up and distributed. And

1135
01:04:06.460 --> 01:04:10.300 A:middle L:90%
those two students were Jack Davis and bob Schubert.

1136
01:04:12.889 --> 01:04:16.980 A:middle L:90%
Many students who evolved through those early years of studying

1137
01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:20.940 A:middle L:90%
architecture in an open way. In the first two

1138
01:04:20.940 --> 01:04:27.090 A:middle L:90%
years established by Kremlin Ferrari went on to do amazing

1139
01:04:27.090 --> 01:04:30.500 A:middle L:90%
things and be great successes because I believe of their

1140
01:04:30.510 --> 01:04:36.219 A:middle L:90%
educational experience of putting responsibility on them to do what

1141
01:04:36.230 --> 01:04:41.829 A:middle L:90%
they thought was important rather than on us that we

1142
01:04:41.829 --> 01:04:45.590 A:middle L:90%
thought was important. three of the other students finding

1143
01:04:45.590 --> 01:04:49.610 A:middle L:90%
that they were being ripped off by the local uh

1144
01:04:50.090 --> 01:04:55.630 A:middle L:90%
bookstores started. Mish mish they started it again with

1145
01:04:55.630 --> 01:04:58.820 A:middle L:90%
a loan from Ferrari to get them going. They

1146
01:04:58.820 --> 01:05:01.210 A:middle L:90%
started it while they were students and it still operates

1147
01:05:01.210 --> 01:05:04.300 A:middle L:90%
. One of them still runs. So I saw

1148
01:05:04.309 --> 01:05:10.070 A:middle L:90%
in that experience with not only excellent faculty, but

1149
01:05:10.070 --> 01:05:14.380 A:middle L:90%
amazing students who had become successes in their own right

1150
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:17.349 A:middle L:90%
because they were given the freedom to explore and because

1151
01:05:17.349 --> 01:05:23.599 A:middle L:90%
they were given the responsibility themselves to produce things rather

1152
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:26.510 A:middle L:90%
than simply being told what to produce. And that

1153
01:05:26.510 --> 01:05:29.840 A:middle L:90%
has been a model for me and my later administrative

1154
01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:38.309 A:middle L:90%
career in several of the university, I forgot about

1155
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:41.190 A:middle L:90%
that. Oh, you didn't, oh