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I wanted to begin this tribute just by reading the

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obituary. It'll maybe providing context for what will follow

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. This was published in the Chattanooga Times Free Press

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, and it was written by Ellen Gagne. I've

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been told by Marcy Robert Bills Gagne, 85 Signal

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Mountain died Sunday, April 28th, 2000 and two

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. He was the leader in the fields of educational

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psychology and instructional design. He was born in 1916

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and north and over Massachusetts. After receiving his bachelor

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of arts degree from Yale University in 1937 he went

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on to Brown University to earn a doctorate in experimental

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psychology. In 1940. He spent much of his

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50 year career in academic positions at Connecticut College for

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Women Princeton University, University of California, Berkeley and

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Florida State University. From 1962 to 66 he was

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director of research at the American Institutes for Research in

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Pittsburgh. Mr. Gagne also spent a good portion

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of his career working on military training problems. During

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World War two, Mr Gagne served as an aviation

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psychologist, developing tests for classification of aircrew. From

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1950 to 1958. He was technical director for two

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different Air Force laboratories at Lackland and Lowry Air Force

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bases, where he conducted numerous studies of human learning

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and performance. At the end of his career,

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in 1990 1991 he worked on instructional design models for

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military training at Armstrong Air Force Base in San Antonio

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, Texas. During his career, Mr Gagne never

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wavered from the idealistic vision of psychology that he expressed

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in his 1932 valedictory speech at Johnson High School in

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North and Over, in which he said the science

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of psychology should be used to relieve the burdens of

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human life. His research and writing focus on how

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principles of human learning established to scientific research could be

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applied in education and training. He wrote five editions

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of a similar book entitled The Conditions of Learning,

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and he also wrote numerous other books on principles of

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learning and instructional design. Mr. Gandhi was a

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member of Phi Beta Kappa Sigma K and was a

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fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science

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and the National Academy of Education and recognition of his

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contributions. Mr Gandhi received many honors, including to

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find out the Capital award for distinguished Educational research from

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a ER A and the Distinguished Scientific Award for applications

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of psychology from the American Psychological Association. Mr.

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Gandhi is survived by his wife, Harriet Pat.

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Two Children, Sam and Ellen. And two grandchildren

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. And then it ends with a note about the

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memorial service. So that's the context why we're here

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today. I just came from the DND lunch and

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where we recognized, uh, and really celebrating the

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contributions of different people in our field. And we

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really want to continue that today. So were the

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point of this session is to recognize the contributions to

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celebrate the fact that he contributed so much to remember

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who he was. Think, Marcie, you're going

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to explain how we organize this as Mike and I

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were talking about what we'd like to do, Um

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, we kind of wondered, Well, maybe a

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way to bring the personal side of January also as

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well as the professional side, would be to involve

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people who worked with him over his career. And

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so, in a sense, this is almost chronological

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. Uh, we'll ask Bob Morgan to speak.

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Who was the person who is responsible for bringing Bob

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Jr to Florida State? Um Stuart Weinstein, who

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was a student at Florida State. Well, Daniel

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was there and who worked with him on projects and

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and Daniel served on Stewart's dissertation committee. Um,

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I had the fortunate opportunity not only to write with

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Bob, which is true of many of his colleagues

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at Florida State, but also to teach with him

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. And so, uh, in some respects,

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I have some stories to share that are probably somewhat

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unique. Uh, then Michael say a few words

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. He worked with Bob after Bob retired from Florida

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State at the Army Research Institute, and then Dave

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Merrill will around us out by talked by talking about

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some of the work that he and Bob did.

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Um, they've had some of, you may know

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, debates that have been published in Educational Technology magazine

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. I think, actually, some video types of

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some of those of those things as well. So

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we think, Well, we've got a well rounded

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A memory of Bob Grenier. So without any additional

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work at this time, I'd like to introduce Bob

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Morgan. Uh, Bob is the director emeritus of

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the Learning Systems Institute. He is the person who

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established the department that I now chair at Florida State

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, and he was really responsible for bringing a lot

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of folks in Florida State to build that program.

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And, of course, the one that we remembered

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remembered today. Bob Gang, Yang Morgan. Thanks

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, Marcy. The I'd like to start out like

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Michael did and read a little bit. I was

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asked by Bob to write the forward to one of

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his last books about 50 years of his own research

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, which was remarkable that anybody could put together a

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book with his own articles over a half century period

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. And if you haven't seen that book, it's

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available from that s U uh, and it's really

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quite quite nice, he writes connecting narrative from his

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first research article, in which started in 1939 Book

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was published in 89 this is a coherent building sequence

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of, uh, of research that has made an

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enormous contribution. In any case, he asked me

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to write forward, and I was a bit intimidated

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by that, but also somewhat are odd, and

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I'll just read parts of it to you as quickly

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as I can. I'm honored to have been asked

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by Professor Daniel to write the forward to this,

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his latest book, Having known Bob for roughly half

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of his 50 years professional work. It is tempting

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to use these few paragraphs to tell Daniel stories of

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which there are many. I'll get to a couple

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of later. Yeah, I will attempt to resist

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this here. However, given the deep respect,

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admiration and affections that all who know Bob, can

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you feel for him, it would be easy to

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make this note of testimonial. When Bob Daniel joined

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the Department of Energy at Florida State University in 1969

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the department was small, reasonably good, but not

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well known. National. With his arrival, the

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last condition changed. The program became instantly visible,

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if for no other reason than his presence. In

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the ensuing years, the department has grown in size

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and recognized quality. It has developed one of the

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nation's strongest graduate training programs in the field of its

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structural systems and technology, and has become a leader

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in applied learning research. The intellectual leadership for this

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development has been provided by Bob Lang, Yet he

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has served as an inspiration and model for all of

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us. On the faculty is senior, both in

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professional standing and an age, and his scholarly production

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set a high standard for both faculty and students.

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He has been a giant among us, but with

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his gentle humility and courtesy, he never made any

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of us feel less worthy. On the contrary,

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he made us believe that as individuals, we were

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important and capable of significant intellectual contributions as a department

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faculty made us feel that we were destined for greatness

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, which was perhaps not realistic. But it did

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cause us to do our best. 1980. Bob

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was named the Robert Old Lot, distinguished professor at

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the Universities Highest Award for academic achievement, a symbolic

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acknowledgement by the university's indebtedness. To him, this

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book is a selected combination of a half centuries.

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Work is a capstone to a truly remarkable career.

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During the past 50 years, Bob's worked unswervingly on

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the problems of human learning. His studies have ranged

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from basic to apply and have examined virtually all the

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variables associated with the learning process. It is rare

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scholarship that retains its relevance, relevance and time in

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this over so many years. It is an extraordinary

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researcher whose lifetime of work is so coherent, coherent

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and logically sequenced with each new inquiry building upon and

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extending his previous research finding many of the pioneers in

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the field of instructional systems hold doctorates and experimental psychology

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and are thoroughly grounded in the fundamentals of learning research

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with the other many other things on the I S

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D training agenda, the basics of behavioral science have

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often been moved to the back burner. However desirable

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, it is not practical to replicate with new I

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S d students the breadth and depth of understanding of

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learning theory and research experienced by those scholars whose foundations

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were built in psychology. With this new book,

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Kanye has provided a convenient and manageable remedy for this

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deficiency. I first became aware of Dr Gagne when

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I was a baby assistant professor at the University of

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New Mexico in 1959. Teaching half of the department

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, uh, graduate courses. Uh, that book

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was Psychology and Human Performance Co written with Fleischman.

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I don't know if any of you've ever seen that

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book or not, but it's an absolute delight to

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read. It's crystal clear. It's unambiguous. Elegantly

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written prose is superb, and I thought it was

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an exemplar of the way that psychologists ought to write

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, and the nature that are disciplined ought to have

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, uh, in 1965 he came out with the

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conditions of learning, another book that I eagerly read

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and was much influenced by. And as Mike has

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said, it's through five or six editions at the

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present time and published in over 20 languages. I

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am married, but I felt like I knew it

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. And in 1966 I was able to meet him

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for the first time. He was a member of

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the National Curriculum Advisory Committee when I was in the

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U. S. Office of Education and I was

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serving as a staff support for that committee, and

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I met him for the first time at that session

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, and I look forward to it with all having

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no idea what kind of a person he was as

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an individual. And by then I had known a

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few of the biggies in our field and found that

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most of them were relatively insensitive to the awe and

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admiration in which they were held by juniors like me

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and and and, as a matter of fact,

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many of them quite arrogant. Bob was the excellent

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opposite of that. He was humble. He was

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kind and he was gentle. He was slow to

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anger, I might note parenthetically here. But when

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he was enraged, it was an awesome psychic.

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I only saw that two or three times in the

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many years that I knew him. One was at

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the Curriculum Advisory Council when a very learned professor from

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Columbia University was holding forth about the evils of trying

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to objectify learning outcomes, uh, with statements of

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behavioral objectives or or learning objectives. And Bob sat

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and I was right next to him and I could

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see him began to squirm. And finally he leaked

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up from his chair, pounded the tables and said

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, I'll listen to no more of this nonsense from

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a man who knows nothing about what he's speaking.

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Fortunately, that was almost lunchtime and deadly. Silence

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and the chair adjourned. The meeting in the land

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, I thought this man merits my admiration. Uh

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, I might tell you a little bit how we

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attracted him from Berkeley to Florida State University. Uh

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, in 1969 we don't hire an awful lot of

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people from Harvard or Berkeley at Florida State University.

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At least not in those days, and I had

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just been hired there from the Office of Education to

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serve as the chair of the Department of Educational Research

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. And it was the dean at that time had

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the ambitions of developing the first instructional systems and technology

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program in the United States and brought me in to

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assist with that endeavor. And after we had negotiated

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the appointment and I had accepted it, he said

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, uh, let me say to you that I'd

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like to back up my commitment on this by giving

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you four new full professor positions to fill. That

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had not happened before then. I suspect it has

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not happened since I was absolutely delighted. He said

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, If you have four, uh, eminent people

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that you can hire, who would you hire?

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Who will you try to heart? And I said

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, Well, the first, uh, person would

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be, uh, Leslie Bricks. Who at that

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time was director of the American Institutes of Research in

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Palo Alto. I said then door Wall Espenson,

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the deputy superintendent of schools in Duluth who was a

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pioneer in individualized instruction, and Bob Branson, who

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was then with Litton Industries. Uh, and certainly

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one of the pioneers and educational system development. And

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I said, finally, Robert Grenier at the University

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of California in Berkeley, the dean pause the moment

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he said, You really know Kanye, you know

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? Yeah, I bragged about it and he said

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, Well, go to it. What? Turns

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out that, uh, Briggs quickly accepted the offer

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as good Bob Branson, door wall of Espenson.

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And I didn't know about Daniel because he was pretty

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happily and securely and, uh, situated here at

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Berkeley. So when I got back to the Office

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of Education in Washington, I called him and I

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said, Bob, shortly, I'm calling you to

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alert you to something. I said shortly, you're

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gonna be hearing rumors that you're going to be moving

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to Florida State University. He laughed, And,

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uh, I said, I I don't want to

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really talk with you about today, but that's are

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you. I'm calling you so you won't buy any

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more property in California because, in fact, you

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will be moving to Florida State. Yeah, at

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Anne Roared and said, uh, I'm too old

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to move. I like it. At Berkeley,

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we own, uh, Riverside property on the Russian

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River in California. but thanks for thinking about me

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. In any case, I said, as I

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said, I don't want to talk with you about

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today, but I would like to meet with you

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at an upcoming eight e. R. A meeting

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. This was probably in late July, early August

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that I talked to him and, uh, the

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A r a was meeting, I believe in in

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the fall of that year. And, uh,

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he said, Sure be glad to get what So

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Bob Branson and I lock ourselves away in a hotel

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room with him and uhh We told him about the

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ambitions we have for this new program. That kind

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of research we were going to mount and the doctoral

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training program that we intended to develop and about the

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other people who had already agreed to come. And

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he had a close colleague and friend of Leslie Break

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. So I knew that there was a great deal

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of mutual respect there, and he was resisting our

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persuasion and blandishments, and I might say I'm pretty

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persuasive. Uh, but I didn't feel I was

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getting anywhere, And, uh, we talked.

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Salary wasn't an issue. Uh, we talked quite

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a long time and I was about to give up

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. And finally it was Bob Branson had said,

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Bob at Berkeley. When you're talking about your applied

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learning research and you're beginning working systems, who are

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your close colleagues? Who do you talk to?

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Do you share your thoughts with you? Get to

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criticize your ideas? And there was this long pause

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, and you realize that there really wasn't anybody at

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Berkeley with him. Bob had that kind of a

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collegial relationship. He closed the meeting by saying,

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Well, I'll talk to pat about it and we'll

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think about it and I'll let you know next week

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I got a call from him and he said,

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Does the offer still open? Uh, yes.

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Uh, he said, uh, maybe we ought

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to talk about salary. So we did for a

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little bit. Uh, some people thought we bought

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Bob from Berkeley, but we didn't, uh we

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gave him the standard increase over what people got on

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their existing salaries, and he agreed to come.

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And he did, uh, after he arrived at

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FSU, he said, You know, one thing

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I got to tell you, Morgan, he said

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, uh, he said, I'm going to slow

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down, he said. I I have been very

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productive his past 25 years, but I can't keep

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up that pace, he said. I'm 50 some

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years old, he said. I'm gonna have to

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slow the pace down. Not at all Christ mhm

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. You know, I've hired a genuine biggie,

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and now he's going to come to Florida and retire

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the sunshine. Well, it turns out that wasn't

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the case when we had his retirement dinner a few

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years ago at Florida State, just before he left

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Tallahassee for Signal Mountain, Tennessee. I remembered that

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statement and I thought, My God, it's slowed

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down at all I don't think, but I'll check

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it. It's an empirical, uh, data issued

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and I went back, and I actually counted his

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publications from that 1940 publication. Up until 1969 he

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came death issue and then from 69 built his retirement

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in the early nineties, and his per year production

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was actually hired during the years he was at fs

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you that it was in the procedures and he published

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with almost everybody on the faculty except me never invited

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me to co published, which felt you are a

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skewed and wise personally, was he, uh he

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was certainly the bore. The foundation, uh,

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personally and intellectually of our program at FS You.

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There's no replacing Bob Jr or Lesley Griggs. Uh

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, but we still try and, uh, let

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me close by saying that he was my old one

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of my oldest and closest friends, and we miss

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him every day. Thank you, Bob, for

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the student perspective, I'd like to turn to Stuart

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Weinstein, who is now a senior associate at Booz

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Allen Hamilton, um, and is working with the

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Project Management office of President Bush's E Learning R E

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government initiative. Yeah, you're ready. First,

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I wanted to tell you that I'm very honored to

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be representing all of the graduate students who have worked

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with Dr Gagne, pat him as a professor on

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a committee or work with him as a student.

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Many of those folks have gone into commercial military all

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that and academia, so he's inspired a lot of

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people, and it's interesting you say about Do you

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really know Gagne? I think that happens to me

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a lot and probably a lot of my colleagues.

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A lot of students who have known him have said

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You really know Gagne. I mean, he spoke

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with you, and I said he did indeed,

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speak with me. Actually, he was a very

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fine scholar and mentor, but he's very, very

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approachable. Uh, I received my PhD from Florida

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State 23 years ago, and fortunately, there's still

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a lot of people who are using Doctor Daniels books

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so that that keeps that alive. Um, he

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was one of my committee members. He was my

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boss. And I'm going to tell you some Gagne

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stories to, uh, about working with him.

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Uh, most of these are not really curriculum oriented

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. They're not how how he did his teaching,

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but basically how he related to a lot of folks

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that he that he worked with. I worked with

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him, first of all, on a very major

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project, which was with WGBH in Boston Nova Science

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Series programs that it was, which is on public

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television, and another graduate student of mine, David

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Owens, was who also has a background in television

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production, as I did, uh, and Dr

380
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Ernest Berkman, who has who was my major professor

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and also had a strong background in science education,

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uh, were part of the team. One of

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the of the three programs dealt with the overfishing of

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high fish population areas off the coast of Peru.

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Another program dealt with the misuse of pesticides and how

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it gets into groundwater. And the third one,

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I dealt with the history of the oral contraceptive.

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I see some people are laughing a good start,

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Um, and it was dealing with the history of

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oral contraceptives. So the whole idea of all three

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of the programs were to look at basic research.

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What is basic research about? Why does the government

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spend that kind of money? A basic research that

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maybe doesn't make sense to the average voter and help

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them to understand why that money is being spent.

396
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We did the program. We used Red Barber,

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who is the, uh, was the voice of

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00:21:32.769 --> 00:21:33.549 A:middle L:90%
the New York Yankees. I'm sorry, New York

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Yankees for several years, and he was our host

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, uh, the on air talent he lived in

401
00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:42.160 A:middle L:90%
in Tallahassee, and he was also the same age

402
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.829 A:middle L:90%
as the population trying to reach. So we thought

403
00:21:44.829 --> 00:21:48.210 A:middle L:90%
we had that type of connection. We videotaped everything

404
00:21:48.220 --> 00:21:49.490 A:middle L:90%
. It went very, very well. Uh,

405
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and then What we have to do is we have

406
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to decide whether, uh, you know how we

407
00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:56.710 A:middle L:90%
were going to field test this with that population.

408
00:21:56.710 --> 00:21:57.279 A:middle L:90%
Find out how much they learn from what we did

409
00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.839 A:middle L:90%
on the T V programs. So keep in mind

410
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.349 A:middle L:90%
, we've got overfishing of high fish population area.

411
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.720 A:middle L:90%
We have misuse of pesticides, and we also have

412
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:07.789 A:middle L:90%
the history of oral contraceptives. So what order would

413
00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:11.490 A:middle L:90%
you want to put those in? Well, David

414
00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:15.190 A:middle L:90%
Owens, David Owens and I, um, decided

415
00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:18.259 A:middle L:90%
since we were graduate students are gonna be real theoretical

416
00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:21.839 A:middle L:90%
. So we talked about Maslow's hierarchy of needs shelter

417
00:22:21.849 --> 00:22:22.789 A:middle L:90%
, that type of thing. Dr. Berkman,

418
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.730 A:middle L:90%
being a scientist, that we need to teach them

419
00:22:26.730 --> 00:22:30.410 A:middle L:90%
a scientific inquiry. And Dr Gagne wouldn't cut right

420
00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:32.779 A:middle L:90%
to the chase. And he said people would rather

421
00:22:32.779 --> 00:22:37.069 A:middle L:90%
have sex than fish. He actually didn't say it

422
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:38.819 A:middle L:90%
that way. He said it for those of you

423
00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:41.660 A:middle L:90%
know, he said it differently, But anyway,

424
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:48.170 A:middle L:90%
yes, well, we lost it. Let me

425
00:22:48.170 --> 00:22:49.829 A:middle L:90%
tell you, we really lost it because here's my

426
00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:52.089 A:middle L:90%
idol and he's talking about sex and the senior citizen

427
00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:56.150 A:middle L:90%
. I never thought, um, we have we

428
00:22:56.150 --> 00:22:57.019 A:middle L:90%
had some other one. I had another wonderful story

429
00:22:57.019 --> 00:22:59.130 A:middle L:90%
, and this is one of those kind of real

430
00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:03.009 A:middle L:90%
personal to me. My parents had a car that

431
00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:06.759 A:middle L:90%
had a push button transmission was a Dodge Dart and

432
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:07.430 A:middle L:90%
it had a little push button. Transmission is made

433
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.279 A:middle L:90%
for several years. Dr Gandhi had one as well

434
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:12.470 A:middle L:90%
. He had a limit value. And my dad

435
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.740 A:middle L:90%
, when I was a kid, had a Dodge

436
00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:15.799 A:middle L:90%
Dart, and I saw this out in the parking

437
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.750 A:middle L:90%
lot. Doctor Gagne is getting into the into the

438
00:23:18.750 --> 00:23:21.059 A:middle L:90%
car and I just walked up and I said,

439
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:22.109 A:middle L:90%
You know, my dad used to have a car

440
00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:23.599 A:middle L:90%
just like this with the push button transmission, and

441
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.750 A:middle L:90%
he said, Get in. I said what he

442
00:23:26.750 --> 00:23:29.700 A:middle L:90%
says, get in. So I get in.

443
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:30.769 A:middle L:90%
He drives me around campus to come back about 10

444
00:23:30.769 --> 00:23:33.740 A:middle L:90%
minutes later. And I said, What was that

445
00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:42.420 A:middle L:90%
all about? He went relive a memory. It

446
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:47.799 A:middle L:90%
was great. I just, um uh here.

447
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:48.900 A:middle L:90%
Here's one on the theoretical side. This is really

448
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:51.670 A:middle L:90%
gonna This is gonna defuse everything, you know?

449
00:23:51.670 --> 00:23:52.859 A:middle L:90%
But I asked him one time in class were having

450
00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:57.710 A:middle L:90%
He was basically a, uh I guess a seminar

451
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.730 A:middle L:90%
. Just a discussion in one of his classes And

452
00:24:00.740 --> 00:24:03.329 A:middle L:90%
I raised my hand. I said, Are your

453
00:24:03.329 --> 00:24:07.490 A:middle L:90%
theories actually is empirically proven invalid? Because, you

454
00:24:07.490 --> 00:24:08.950 A:middle L:90%
know, I really don't know that this was very

455
00:24:08.950 --> 00:24:11.220 A:middle L:90%
early on, by the way, because when I

456
00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:11.740 A:middle L:90%
was there, they were just finishing up the I

457
00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:15.420 A:middle L:90%
S D model and he leaned over. He said

458
00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:17.869 A:middle L:90%
, Heavens, no. That's why we have graduate

459
00:24:17.869 --> 00:24:21.750 A:middle L:90%
students. So that anyway, that's how that was

460
00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:23.960 A:middle L:90%
empirically prudent. Um, tell you what. What

461
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.759 A:middle L:90%
happened to me also in another personal thing on my

462
00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:29.460 A:middle L:90%
doctoral, And I'm sure a lot of students have

463
00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:32.190 A:middle L:90%
gone through this on my defense. Uh, he

464
00:24:32.190 --> 00:24:33.819 A:middle L:90%
asked me a question. I was very nervous.

465
00:24:33.819 --> 00:24:36.190 A:middle L:90%
I had a very powerful committee and, uh,

466
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:37.680 A:middle L:90%
he asked me a question and I didn't know the

467
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.230 A:middle L:90%
answer to it. I really did. But I

468
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.099 A:middle L:90%
just couldn't bring bring it to say it. So

469
00:24:45.109 --> 00:24:48.420 A:middle L:90%
Dr Berkman, my major professors answered the question and

470
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:51.480 A:middle L:90%
said, Uh, Stewart knows the answer to this

471
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:52.329 A:middle L:90%
and then proceeds to tell him the answer to my

472
00:24:52.329 --> 00:24:55.559 A:middle L:90%
question just to prove that I knew the answer.

473
00:24:56.140 --> 00:24:59.180 A:middle L:90%
So Dr Ghani looks at me and he asked me

474
00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:02.359 A:middle L:90%
the next question, and I stared at him and

475
00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:06.450 A:middle L:90%
he stared at me and he went well and I

476
00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:11.859 A:middle L:90%
said, Dr Bergman. And he said, Good

477
00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.890 A:middle L:90%
answer even around. Dr Berman came to me afterward

478
00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:18.450 A:middle L:90%
says, Hey, you defused them. I taught

479
00:25:18.450 --> 00:25:22.029 A:middle L:90%
you well, you know. So anyway, there's

480
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:23.380 A:middle L:90%
I got just actually a couple more. I've got

481
00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:27.430 A:middle L:90%
one more that Dr Bergman, And this is another

482
00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:32.410 A:middle L:90%
one that also involved him. His nickname was Buck

483
00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:33.549 A:middle L:90%
. I mean, the faculty and informal meetings used

484
00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:37.519 A:middle L:90%
to call him Buck, and I was privileged to

485
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.740 A:middle L:90%
be on a committee. That was, I forgot

486
00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.730 A:middle L:90%
who shared the committee. But it was a curriculum

487
00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:47.869 A:middle L:90%
redesign committee for the for Florida State, uh,

488
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:49.200 A:middle L:90%
in the program. And what we wanted to do

489
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.099 A:middle L:90%
is to get they want to get student input,

490
00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:52.650 A:middle L:90%
as well as faculty input on what we can do

491
00:25:52.650 --> 00:25:55.970 A:middle L:90%
to improve the program. So as one of the

492
00:25:55.970 --> 00:25:57.369 A:middle L:90%
graduate students and I think David Owens was another,

493
00:25:57.369 --> 00:26:00.910 A:middle L:90%
there was a third one he wanted to. They

494
00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:03.380 A:middle L:90%
all wanted to know what we could do to improve

495
00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:06.849 A:middle L:90%
the curriculum. So we suggested that they should really

496
00:26:06.849 --> 00:26:10.650 A:middle L:90%
get talk about other theorists and other, uh,

497
00:26:10.660 --> 00:26:11.890 A:middle L:90%
important people in the instructional design field. other than

498
00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:15.119 A:middle L:90%
those who teach at Florida State University like Dr Merrill

499
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:15.710 A:middle L:90%
, for instance, you know to really give a

500
00:26:15.710 --> 00:26:19.079 A:middle L:90%
balanced program. And, uh, we also said

501
00:26:19.089 --> 00:26:21.539 A:middle L:90%
, because we wanted to get and go and get

502
00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:22.490 A:middle L:90%
Dr Ghani going a little bit. We said,

503
00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:25.990 A:middle L:90%
So we're really talking about, you know, Dr

504
00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:32.809 A:middle L:90%
Merrill Romanowski, everybody and also P J and Carl

505
00:26:32.809 --> 00:26:36.029 A:middle L:90%
Rogers. And if you know him, I know

506
00:26:36.029 --> 00:26:37.009 A:middle L:90%
somebody. You're laughing and you find that he really

507
00:26:37.009 --> 00:26:40.750 A:middle L:90%
would not be favoring you and Carl Rogers. So

508
00:26:40.750 --> 00:26:45.079 A:middle L:90%
he got very, very animated. And he said

509
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:49.069 A:middle L:90%
I would rather have P A J than Rogers and

510
00:26:49.069 --> 00:26:55.859 A:middle L:90%
Burkman said Bob, I think he meant Buck Rogers

511
00:26:56.650 --> 00:26:59.250 A:middle L:90%
. What's up, anyway? That's I'm sure there's

512
00:26:59.250 --> 00:27:00.480 A:middle L:90%
a lot of faculty and students because they can tell

513
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.779 A:middle L:90%
you a lot more stories. In fact, we

514
00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:04.769 A:middle L:90%
were talking at lunchtime at the luncheon about some other

515
00:27:04.769 --> 00:27:07.359 A:middle L:90%
stories. I hope you'll tell them when you told

516
00:27:07.369 --> 00:27:10.690 A:middle L:90%
that. OK, maybe you won't. But anyway

517
00:27:10.700 --> 00:27:12.410 A:middle L:90%
, they had their time, and I want to

518
00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:15.869 A:middle L:90%
just echo the fact that because Dr Gagne made his

519
00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:18.359 A:middle L:90%
mark on our field, we've been very, very

520
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:29.759 A:middle L:90%
successful for it. Thank you. Well, I'm

521
00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:32.680 A:middle L:90%
also going to continue in some of the storytelling tradition

522
00:27:32.690 --> 00:27:34.920 A:middle L:90%
, Um, and and start with my first meeting

523
00:27:34.930 --> 00:27:37.130 A:middle L:90%
with Bob Daniel. I was when I interviewed at

524
00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:40.519 A:middle L:90%
Florida State a little more than 20 years ago.

525
00:27:40.529 --> 00:27:41.339 A:middle L:90%
And, of course, I already knew much of

526
00:27:41.349 --> 00:27:45.140 A:middle L:90%
his work because the conditions of learning had been required

527
00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:48.019 A:middle L:90%
reading for me as an undergraduate. And I worked

528
00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:49.539 A:middle L:90%
for a time as an instructional designer and had his

529
00:27:49.539 --> 00:27:52.059 A:middle L:90%
little essentials of learning book, which was a real

530
00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:55.140 A:middle L:90%
handy book to give my staff. And we were

531
00:27:55.140 --> 00:27:59.269 A:middle L:90%
doing instructional development kinds of activities. So I came

532
00:27:59.269 --> 00:28:02.400 A:middle L:90%
to Tallahassee from the Northeast. So this I flew

533
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.150 A:middle L:90%
in and sort of wondered where the town was.

534
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.390 A:middle L:90%
Um, and Walter Dick was the chair of the

535
00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:08.619 A:middle L:90%
search committee and he met me at the airport and

536
00:28:08.619 --> 00:28:11.269 A:middle L:90%
the one of the very first things he said to

537
00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:11.549 A:middle L:90%
me Now, this is the first time I had

538
00:28:11.549 --> 00:28:15.319 A:middle L:90%
met Walt. Um, and we're chatting about it

539
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:17.039 A:middle L:90%
, and he's kind of going through what my my

540
00:28:17.049 --> 00:28:18.690 A:middle L:90%
day is going to be to pick me up about

541
00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:19.900 A:middle L:90%
nine o'clock in the evening and I would interview all

542
00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:22.970 A:middle L:90%
the next day and he said, Well, you

543
00:28:22.970 --> 00:28:25.900 A:middle L:90%
understand that if we hire you, you're going to

544
00:28:25.910 --> 00:28:29.289 A:middle L:90%
be to replace can. Yet I'm like, Oh

545
00:28:29.299 --> 00:28:30.160 A:middle L:90%
, my God, the pressure. You know,

546
00:28:30.170 --> 00:28:33.660 A:middle L:90%
I of course, as mortgage said, he really

547
00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:36.289 A:middle L:90%
, truly is irreplaceable. Well, I met Bob

548
00:28:36.289 --> 00:28:38.470 A:middle L:90%
the next morning and we actually went to lunch together

549
00:28:38.470 --> 00:28:41.190 A:middle L:90%
with Baltic. Now you have to kind of picture

550
00:28:41.190 --> 00:28:44.319 A:middle L:90%
this and we're actually pictures. I want to draw

551
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:45.789 A:middle L:90%
your attention to here, Up against the podium.

552
00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:49.609 A:middle L:90%
These are archived photos from Florida State's lab and you

553
00:28:49.609 --> 00:28:52.369 A:middle L:90%
have those of you have never seen a name is

554
00:28:52.369 --> 00:28:53.029 A:middle L:90%
a very big man, Okay? I mean,

555
00:28:53.029 --> 00:29:02.690 A:middle L:90%
you kind of much bigger than me and manned.

556
00:29:03.309 --> 00:29:07.170 A:middle L:90%
And Walter Dick at that time was driving a basic

557
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.259 A:middle L:90%
blue Toyota Corolla. That was a single door thing

558
00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:14.000 A:middle L:90%
that wasn't double door. And so we went to

559
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.210 A:middle L:90%
lunch. Kanye insisted on sitting in the back seat

560
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:18.509 A:middle L:90%
. And so you can imagine him kind of wedging

561
00:29:18.509 --> 00:29:21.779 A:middle L:90%
himself into the vaccine. He finally gets situation.

562
00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:25.200 A:middle L:90%
He's got one hand on Walt seat and one hand

563
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.869 A:middle L:90%
on my seat in his face between, and we're

564
00:29:30.869 --> 00:29:32.930 A:middle L:90%
and we're talking along its going to lunch and and

565
00:29:32.930 --> 00:29:36.059 A:middle L:90%
all of a sudden Bob says to me he says

566
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:41.549 A:middle L:90%
. What do you think people learn from television documentaries

567
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.910 A:middle L:90%
? But, oh, no trick question. I

568
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.539 A:middle L:90%
really, truly didn't have a clue. I had

569
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.049 A:middle L:90%
no idea where this question came from or what he

570
00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:52.410 A:middle L:90%
really expected me to say, but it was my

571
00:29:52.410 --> 00:29:57.329 A:middle L:90%
first introduction to Daniel's incredible curiosity. He really was

572
00:29:57.339 --> 00:30:00.569 A:middle L:90%
interested in what I had to say in what how

573
00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:02.500 A:middle L:90%
I respond to it. Well, it turns out

574
00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:03.410 A:middle L:90%
it might have been David Owens dissertation. I'm not

575
00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:07.430 A:middle L:90%
sure he had a student doing a dissertation and he

576
00:30:07.430 --> 00:30:08.819 A:middle L:90%
said, Well, I'll tell you, they learned

577
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:15.450 A:middle L:90%
about 50%. It's not, Yeah, mhm,

578
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:22.460 A:middle L:90%
but one of the things that that I came away

579
00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:26.930 A:middle L:90%
with that with this real sense of his incredible curiosity

580
00:30:26.930 --> 00:30:29.029 A:middle L:90%
and respect, I think for his colleagues, where

581
00:30:29.029 --> 00:30:30.460 A:middle L:90%
he was from time to time, come in the

582
00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:33.569 A:middle L:90%
office and ask a question that was sort of almost

583
00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:34.529 A:middle L:90%
off the wall. But in fact was he was

584
00:30:34.529 --> 00:30:37.630 A:middle L:90%
just interested in various things and and so we come

585
00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:40.920 A:middle L:90%
in and ask these kinds of questions. Well,

586
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:42.910 A:middle L:90%
he, um, invited me to be a co

587
00:30:42.910 --> 00:30:47.819 A:middle L:90%
author on his essentials of learning essentials of learning for

588
00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:51.099 A:middle L:90%
instruction book, and it's one of those things.

589
00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:53.890 A:middle L:90%
He indicated to me that he wanted the teacher's perspective

590
00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:56.700 A:middle L:90%
. I was working with some pre service teachers at

591
00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:57.450 A:middle L:90%
the time, and he felt I had something to

592
00:30:57.460 --> 00:31:02.339 A:middle L:90%
contribute. Like Morgan indicated earlier, though, I

593
00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.240 A:middle L:90%
mean, I certainly felt that same trepidation and just

594
00:31:04.250 --> 00:31:07.420 A:middle L:90%
, ah, that I've been asked by Young yet

595
00:31:07.430 --> 00:31:10.880 A:middle L:90%
to work with him, and it just I thought

596
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.029 A:middle L:90%
, My goodness, his prose is so elegant in

597
00:31:14.029 --> 00:31:15.569 A:middle L:90%
his writing is so clear, I didn't think there

598
00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.519 A:middle L:90%
would be anything that I could bring that would contribute

599
00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:22.700 A:middle L:90%
any in any measurable way. And yet I was

600
00:31:22.710 --> 00:31:25.509 A:middle L:90%
terribly flattered that he had asked me to do this

601
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:26.920 A:middle L:90%
. Um, and when we started to work together

602
00:31:26.930 --> 00:31:30.539 A:middle L:90%
, it was an amazing experience because he wrote amazingly

603
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:33.289 A:middle L:90%
fast. Um, I write fast. I tend

604
00:31:33.289 --> 00:31:37.460 A:middle L:90%
to draft quite rapidly, but he worked much,

605
00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:40.559 A:middle L:90%
much faster than than I did. And we exchanged

606
00:31:40.569 --> 00:31:42.160 A:middle L:90%
um, chapters. We divvy them up, and

607
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.349 A:middle L:90%
he wrote half I wrote half and then we would

608
00:31:45.349 --> 00:31:48.259 A:middle L:90%
exchange our dress, and I remember thinking that how

609
00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:51.759 A:middle L:90%
could I improve on what what he wrote? And

610
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:56.440 A:middle L:90%
yet every suggestion that I made for revision he immediately

611
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:56.519 A:middle L:90%
took, he said, Oh, that's a good

612
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.559 A:middle L:90%
idea. And most of the suggestions that he made

613
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:01.700 A:middle L:90%
it for my writing. I mean, I thought

614
00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:05.490 A:middle L:90%
were sort of brilliant. And yet it was this

615
00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:07.880 A:middle L:90%
very humble sort of approach that he took to working

616
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:10.589 A:middle L:90%
with a lot of his faculty. I remember thinking

617
00:32:10.589 --> 00:32:14.390 A:middle L:90%
as well that if he ever were to write with

618
00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:16.539 A:middle L:90%
a computer, he would be completely unstoppable. But

619
00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:21.130 A:middle L:90%
he was someone who tended to be rather impatient with

620
00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:23.670 A:middle L:90%
mechanical kinds of things which, um, many of

621
00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:25.980 A:middle L:90%
our colleagues knew. And that leads me to a

622
00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:28.680 A:middle L:90%
story that I wasn't going to tell because I thought

623
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:30.480 A:middle L:90%
this was, um, Stuart Story. And I

624
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:34.230 A:middle L:90%
don't know that this was something I actually experienced with

625
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.269 A:middle L:90%
Bob. I did travel with him, some to

626
00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:37.829 A:middle L:90%
a er a, uh, but I actually thinking

627
00:32:37.829 --> 00:32:40.819 A:middle L:90%
something Another student mentioned to him and and they knew

628
00:32:40.819 --> 00:32:44.450 A:middle L:90%
that when Danny traveled, he tended to be very

629
00:32:44.450 --> 00:32:46.450 A:middle L:90%
impatient with airports and, you know, things that

630
00:32:46.450 --> 00:32:49.240 A:middle L:90%
have to do an airport. I can't imagine what

631
00:32:49.250 --> 00:32:51.430 A:middle L:90%
it would be like for him today in today's world

632
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:53.309 A:middle L:90%
, but now remember, this is a er a

633
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.299 A:middle L:90%
, and, um, this is a five day

634
00:32:55.299 --> 00:32:58.259 A:middle L:90%
long convention and one of the things that you actually

635
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.430 A:middle L:90%
see in the pictures. Bob always used to wear

636
00:33:00.430 --> 00:33:02.670 A:middle L:90%
this gray suit that was in the white shirt,

637
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.450 A:middle L:90%
sort of rumpled and offered by the end of the

638
00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:07.890 A:middle L:90%
day, you know that the shirttail would be partly

639
00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:10.140 A:middle L:90%
out and maybe a button unbuttoned and, you know

640
00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:15.259 A:middle L:90%
, just looked like your typical absent minded professor.

641
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:17.269 A:middle L:90%
Well, this student and I don't recall who it

642
00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:21.130 A:middle L:90%
was when we got to the destination. Said to

643
00:33:21.130 --> 00:33:23.000 A:middle L:90%
Bob. Well, Dr Daniel, if if you're

644
00:33:23.009 --> 00:33:24.930 A:middle L:90%
trying to be nice, if you'd like me to

645
00:33:24.930 --> 00:33:27.809 A:middle L:90%
get it If you give me your claim, check

646
00:33:27.819 --> 00:33:29.640 A:middle L:90%
for your luggage. I'd be happy to go get

647
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.250 A:middle L:90%
it for you. Tuck. Illness? No need

648
00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:36.269 A:middle L:90%
. Got it right here and lifts up his briefcase

649
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:47.950 A:middle L:90%
. Yeah, what we want, Please. Um

650
00:33:50.539 --> 00:33:54.609 A:middle L:90%
one of the things I remember very much about Bob

651
00:33:54.619 --> 00:33:59.009 A:middle L:90%
when we did travel together and to a er a

652
00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.019 A:middle L:90%
is, he had a real penchant for fast food

653
00:34:01.029 --> 00:34:04.500 A:middle L:90%
. Um, and I can recall one day in

654
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:06.900 A:middle L:90%
the office he asked me to go to lunch with

655
00:34:06.910 --> 00:34:08.590 A:middle L:90%
him, and, um, he I said,

656
00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:09.909 A:middle L:90%
Well, where would you like to go? So

657
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.530 A:middle L:90%
you features and I said Okay, so I named

658
00:34:14.530 --> 00:34:17.800 A:middle L:90%
a place that was sort of had good, healthy

659
00:34:17.809 --> 00:34:22.360 A:middle L:90%
alternatives. And Bob's face just fell, just fell

660
00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:24.570 A:middle L:90%
. So I said, Bob, where would you

661
00:34:24.570 --> 00:34:31.570 A:middle L:90%
like to go? Wendy's. So from then on

662
00:34:31.570 --> 00:34:34.599 A:middle L:90%
, I said, Father, anytime. If you

663
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:35.989 A:middle L:90%
want to go to lunch, why don't you give

664
00:34:35.989 --> 00:34:37.980 A:middle L:90%
me two or three places? You'd be Willie Deed

665
00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:39.469 A:middle L:90%
, and I'll pick from one of them. But

666
00:34:39.469 --> 00:34:40.760 A:middle L:90%
whenever we went out, yeah, right. That's

667
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.820 A:middle L:90%
the very first thing he would do his scout out

668
00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:46.780 A:middle L:90%
, the nearest McDonald's and something he just loved,

669
00:34:46.789 --> 00:34:51.250 A:middle L:90%
Uh, fast food. One of my favorite 80

670
00:34:51.250 --> 00:34:52.730 A:middle L:90%
our stories. And I have to tell you,

671
00:34:52.730 --> 00:34:54.550 A:middle L:90%
this is something I tell my students in my class

672
00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:58.199 A:middle L:90%
I teach a learning class, Um, and this

673
00:34:58.210 --> 00:35:00.449 A:middle L:90%
actually having several stories related to the learning class?

674
00:35:00.460 --> 00:35:01.400 A:middle L:90%
I When I was first hired there, Bob and

675
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.510 A:middle L:90%
I actually did team teach. We had very different

676
00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:08.449 A:middle L:90%
teaching styles and that Bob was very much of sort

677
00:35:08.449 --> 00:35:13.389 A:middle L:90%
of the old world lecturer, a wonderful lecturer,

678
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:15.469 A:middle L:90%
somebody you could sit and listen to for quite a

679
00:35:15.469 --> 00:35:17.170 A:middle L:90%
long time understand what he had to say. He

680
00:35:17.170 --> 00:35:21.469 A:middle L:90%
was extremely clear. He was interesting to listen to

681
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:22.869 A:middle L:90%
, but it was very much of a didactic kind

682
00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:25.719 A:middle L:90%
of style. Whereas mind tends to be more of

683
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:29.369 A:middle L:90%
an interactive style. I really want to engage students

684
00:35:29.369 --> 00:35:30.820 A:middle L:90%
in conversation. And so it was an interesting tension

685
00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:34.969 A:middle L:90%
for us to work together in the same class.

686
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.559 A:middle L:90%
And there are times that the questions would somewhat take

687
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.820 A:middle L:90%
him a bit off guard. And I recall one

688
00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:43.429 A:middle L:90%
of the questions, like the one that Stewart mentioned

689
00:35:43.429 --> 00:35:46.650 A:middle L:90%
about PJ that all almost always came up because we

690
00:35:46.659 --> 00:35:50.289 A:middle L:90%
taught this was the course that Bob had put together

691
00:35:50.289 --> 00:35:52.909 A:middle L:90%
. We taught, uh, we taught, um

692
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.559 A:middle L:90%
, Groner. We talked Skinner. Um, we

693
00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:00.320 A:middle L:90%
taught possible We did not teach any casual. So

694
00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:04.460 A:middle L:90%
one of the questions invariably somebody would ask is,

695
00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:06.849 A:middle L:90%
Why don't you click cash A in this class,

696
00:36:07.230 --> 00:36:08.500 A:middle L:90%
and immediately you can start to see the bread.

697
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:13.550 A:middle L:90%
And it's basically because because, yeah, it is

698
00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:17.480 A:middle L:90%
a developmental theorist, not a learning theorist, A

699
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.469 A:middle L:90%
developmental theorists, Of course, by this time he

700
00:36:21.469 --> 00:36:23.500 A:middle L:90%
looks like he's about to explode. For half the

701
00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:30.619 A:middle L:90%
students simply shut up Another occasion. I was teaching

702
00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:34.500 A:middle L:90%
a course that was a doctoral seminar, and we

703
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:37.230 A:middle L:90%
were talking about researching theory development and model development.

704
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.360 A:middle L:90%
And I asked Bob to come in and talk about

705
00:36:39.369 --> 00:36:43.519 A:middle L:90%
some of the thinking that went behind his development of

706
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:45.320 A:middle L:90%
his instructional theory. And one of the students asked

707
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.460 A:middle L:90%
a question that just said, Well, thought,

708
00:36:49.469 --> 00:36:52.849 A:middle L:90%
Dr Gang, how did you come up with this

709
00:36:52.849 --> 00:36:55.079 A:middle L:90%
theory? And he kind of paused and looked thoughtful

710
00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.429 A:middle L:90%
for a moment and kind of shook, as he

711
00:36:57.429 --> 00:37:00.539 A:middle L:90%
says, because you said, You just think it

712
00:37:00.929 --> 00:37:07.389 A:middle L:90%
, Yeah, but yeah, All right. One

713
00:37:07.389 --> 00:37:10.559 A:middle L:90%
of my favorite stories was a panel that he and

714
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.219 A:middle L:90%
Bob Blazer were asked to debate. Um, and

715
00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:16.650 A:middle L:90%
and it was moderated kind of debate where I think

716
00:37:16.650 --> 00:37:21.119 A:middle L:90%
there were some canned questions and then they were asked

717
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.780 A:middle L:90%
to sort of go at each other. And so

718
00:37:22.780 --> 00:37:23.969 A:middle L:90%
far, Blazer kind of went first. And Glaser

719
00:37:23.969 --> 00:37:27.739 A:middle L:90%
says to Daniel, Uh, Bob, why do

720
00:37:27.739 --> 00:37:30.869 A:middle L:90%
you think there are eight kinds of learning? And

721
00:37:30.869 --> 00:37:34.789 A:middle L:90%
I assume eight comes from one of the early editions

722
00:37:34.789 --> 00:37:37.130 A:middle L:90%
of the conditions of learning where the taxonomy had reached

723
00:37:37.130 --> 00:37:40.590 A:middle L:90%
its final stage and immediately canceled our date? That's

724
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:46.630 A:middle L:90%
fine, fine. So Glaser said, Well,

725
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:52.329 A:middle L:90%
okay, why do you think they were fine signs

726
00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:53.650 A:middle L:90%
of learning and again, again it kind of kind

727
00:37:53.650 --> 00:37:58.559 A:middle L:90%
of sits there and puzzlement from against because it's all

728
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:08.530 A:middle L:90%
over in Okay, But that is something that when

729
00:38:08.530 --> 00:38:13.250 A:middle L:90%
I when I talked to my class about Daniels theory

730
00:38:13.250 --> 00:38:15.590 A:middle L:90%
, because I do think this is one of the

731
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.019 A:middle L:90%
contributions that he's made to the field is an integrative

732
00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:21.179 A:middle L:90%
and comprehensive theory. And one of the questions I

733
00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:23.199 A:middle L:90%
ask is, Is that all there is? And

734
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:27.889 A:middle L:90%
it's often very difficult as we think about potential examples

735
00:38:27.889 --> 00:38:30.820 A:middle L:90%
of learned capabilities to come up with any that cannot

736
00:38:30.829 --> 00:38:36.800 A:middle L:90%
be classified using the Gangsters taxonomy. And I haven't

737
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:37.630 A:middle L:90%
yet seen a real clear example. I think there's

738
00:38:37.630 --> 00:38:39.360 A:middle L:90%
some that perhaps, are borderline, but I think

739
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:43.940 A:middle L:90%
that's a lasting contribution, Um, that he's made

740
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:46.739 A:middle L:90%
, Um, I think I'd like to end at

741
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:52.389 A:middle L:90%
this point with simply saying that that Kanye certainly had

742
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:57.030 A:middle L:90%
an impact on my thinking. Um, he continues

743
00:38:57.030 --> 00:38:59.829 A:middle L:90%
to have lasting impact on my thinking, and on

744
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:01.610 A:middle L:90%
the field, at least, his theory is something

745
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:06.150 A:middle L:90%
that is still very useful today. Um, it

746
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:08.170 A:middle L:90%
hasn't yet supplanted. I don't think I've been supplanted

747
00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:12.449 A:middle L:90%
by other theories. Certainly others are competing, but

748
00:39:12.619 --> 00:39:15.880 A:middle L:90%
he had an incredible mind and he was someone that

749
00:39:15.889 --> 00:39:17.489 A:middle L:90%
was here as I mentioned, Very, very curious

750
00:39:17.500 --> 00:39:21.289 A:middle L:90%
. And so I think he would be happy to

751
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:22.690 A:middle L:90%
take to be challenged, to say, Well,

752
00:39:22.690 --> 00:39:24.400 A:middle L:90%
is that all there is? And I think that's

753
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:28.619 A:middle L:90%
the challenge for us as a field to take his

754
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:39.659 A:middle L:90%
work even further. Yeah, right. Okay.

755
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:45.039 A:middle L:90%
We're moving from Tallahassee to San Antonio. When I

756
00:39:45.050 --> 00:39:46.659 A:middle L:90%
met Dave Maryland Bob Gagne at the same time.

757
00:39:46.659 --> 00:39:50.099 A:middle L:90%
In fact, an association with the project at the

758
00:39:50.099 --> 00:39:52.860 A:middle L:90%
Air Force Armstrong Research Laboratory called the Advanced Instructional Design

759
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:55.269 A:middle L:90%
Advisor. Uh, Bob, I think was wearing

760
00:39:55.269 --> 00:39:58.710 A:middle L:90%
that same suit. Hadn't washed the shirt. And

761
00:39:58.710 --> 00:40:00.250 A:middle L:90%
, of course, he was wearing the tennis shoes

762
00:40:00.250 --> 00:40:02.139 A:middle L:90%
that he always wore when he wore suits. Um

763
00:40:04.010 --> 00:40:05.860 A:middle L:90%
, and I thought I'd just tell a couple of

764
00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:07.670 A:middle L:90%
quick stories. I'm not gonna take very much time

765
00:40:07.670 --> 00:40:08.820 A:middle L:90%
, and then we'll leave the last word today.

766
00:40:08.829 --> 00:40:13.010 A:middle L:90%
But, uh, two things struck me about Bob

767
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:15.409 A:middle L:90%
. A number of things. One was, uh

768
00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:17.219 A:middle L:90%
, his inquiry in mind. Uh, he basically

769
00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:21.059 A:middle L:90%
retired from Florida State and came out of retirement,

770
00:40:21.070 --> 00:40:22.530 A:middle L:90%
so he hadn't really retired. He remained active,

771
00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:25.630 A:middle L:90%
quite active. Um, and I had come from

772
00:40:25.630 --> 00:40:29.480 A:middle L:90%
a different field from philosophy than a computer science and

773
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:30.900 A:middle L:90%
then to this field. And I had a number

774
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:34.610 A:middle L:90%
of philosophy books on my shelf and and he asked

775
00:40:34.610 --> 00:40:36.349 A:middle L:90%
me, What should he read? So the first

776
00:40:36.349 --> 00:40:37.699 A:middle L:90%
week he was there, he read Hume's Treatise of

777
00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:40.440 A:middle L:90%
human nature. Uh, the first week. I

778
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.630 A:middle L:90%
mean, this is an enormously thick book. He

779
00:40:43.630 --> 00:40:45.050 A:middle L:90%
would have soared things. He was interested to find

780
00:40:45.050 --> 00:40:47.190 A:middle L:90%
out new things. He spent an incredible amount of

781
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:52.170 A:middle L:90%
time talking to the many young scientists and technicians that

782
00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:53.079 A:middle L:90%
worked at the lab. He was very generous with

783
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:58.159 A:middle L:90%
his time. I remember on one occasion we were

784
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:01.400 A:middle L:90%
visiting Aircrew Training Facility and Phoenix, Arizona, driving

785
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.280 A:middle L:90%
around. This was the case when he wasn't looking

786
00:41:04.289 --> 00:41:06.329 A:middle L:90%
for fast food, he was looking for a state

787
00:41:06.710 --> 00:41:07.769 A:middle L:90%
. So Bob also was a carnivore. He liked

788
00:41:07.780 --> 00:41:10.679 A:middle L:90%
to stay looking for a particular restaurant that he had

789
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:15.679 A:middle L:90%
visited before. Black Angus was the picture that he

790
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:16.119 A:middle L:90%
remembered, and he thought it was the name of

791
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:19.019 A:middle L:90%
the restaurant. It wasn't. We were lost,

792
00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:21.239 A:middle L:90%
and I was driving around, lost in Phoenix,

793
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.719 A:middle L:90%
trying to carry on a conversation with Bob, and

794
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.780 A:middle L:90%
I was struggling with how to design computer based instruction

795
00:41:25.789 --> 00:41:29.650 A:middle L:90%
so that it wouldn't lose student interest, which we

796
00:41:29.650 --> 00:41:30.840 A:middle L:90%
knew was happening in a lot of cases. And

797
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.010 A:middle L:90%
I tried to initiate a conversation. What would make

798
00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:37.639 A:middle L:90%
a particular interface attractive, memorable and so forth.

799
00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:42.960 A:middle L:90%
And he came back with an answer that didn't really

800
00:41:42.969 --> 00:41:45.679 A:middle L:90%
seem quite right. It was too mechanistic if you

801
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:47.800 A:middle L:90%
had things balanced and the colours were clear and the

802
00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:51.190 A:middle L:90%
objects were distinct, that kind of answer. You

803
00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:52.679 A:middle L:90%
can imagine Bob saying that things had to be clear

804
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.070 A:middle L:90%
and distinct and readable, and and it seems like

805
00:41:55.070 --> 00:41:57.590 A:middle L:90%
, well, I wanted more. So I said

806
00:41:57.590 --> 00:41:59.880 A:middle L:90%
, Well, what makes a poem memorable? And

807
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:00.809 A:middle L:90%
he gave the same kind of answer. Rhyme and

808
00:42:00.809 --> 00:42:04.719 A:middle L:90%
meter pounded his fist, as he usually did.

809
00:42:04.769 --> 00:42:06.429 A:middle L:90%
So he knew the answer, Rhyme and meter was

810
00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:07.650 A:middle L:90%
said, Well, isn't there something more? Tell

811
00:42:07.650 --> 00:42:09.710 A:middle L:90%
me a poem you remember. And so then he

812
00:42:09.710 --> 00:42:15.469 A:middle L:90%
proceeded to recite without hesitation. Edgar Allan Poe,

813
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.420 A:middle L:90%
The Raven, which is a very long poem.

814
00:42:17.429 --> 00:42:21.619 A:middle L:90%
It's about five pages long, so this really struck

815
00:42:21.619 --> 00:42:22.969 A:middle L:90%
my curiosity. He's in his seventies, and he

816
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:25.460 A:middle L:90%
remembers this poem word for word. It just happened

817
00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:28.190 A:middle L:90%
to have been my favorite as well. So I

818
00:42:28.190 --> 00:42:30.420 A:middle L:90%
said, What were you forced to memorize this when

819
00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:31.320 A:middle L:90%
you were a Brown or Yale or some time in

820
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.380 A:middle L:90%
your career? No. When did you learn it

821
00:42:34.389 --> 00:42:36.519 A:middle L:90%
? He had met Pat and they were dating and

822
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:38.639 A:middle L:90%
he was not sure how romances go. And he

823
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:43.050 A:middle L:90%
was really different authors and he chance to cross pole

824
00:42:43.050 --> 00:42:45.570 A:middle L:90%
When he was in the life. He committed this

825
00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:50.050 A:middle L:90%
poem to memory and 50 years later, driving around

826
00:42:50.050 --> 00:42:52.400 A:middle L:90%
, Lost in Phoenix, he's able to recite the

827
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.230 A:middle L:90%
entire poem. He just had an incredible mind.

828
00:42:55.300 --> 00:43:00.239 A:middle L:90%
One other short, one that passed the microphone today

829
00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:01.489 A:middle L:90%
when we're at the laboratory, we worked on this

830
00:43:01.489 --> 00:43:06.440 A:middle L:90%
project, the Advanced Instruction Design Advisor and Bob said

831
00:43:06.449 --> 00:43:08.030 A:middle L:90%
his office was next to mine, and his task

832
00:43:08.070 --> 00:43:12.730 A:middle L:90%
was to lead direct the building the construction of a

833
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.369 A:middle L:90%
what we called a case based advising approach to instructional

834
00:43:15.369 --> 00:43:20.230 A:middle L:90%
design. So we would have examples exemplars of computer

835
00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:22.449 A:middle L:90%
based instruction that we knew worked and then we would

836
00:43:22.449 --> 00:43:24.269 A:middle L:90%
have an elaboration of the rationale. For one particular

837
00:43:24.289 --> 00:43:28.599 A:middle L:90%
design was affected, what the designer was thinking and

838
00:43:28.630 --> 00:43:30.699 A:middle L:90%
why things were done certain ways. The other project

839
00:43:30.699 --> 00:43:32.610 A:middle L:90%
that we had underway in parallel with that was a

840
00:43:32.610 --> 00:43:36.610 A:middle L:90%
system that Merrill design, which was really to eliminate

841
00:43:36.619 --> 00:43:38.420 A:middle L:90%
the instructional designer to automate the process as much as

842
00:43:38.420 --> 00:43:42.829 A:middle L:90%
possible. So we were trying both approaches and and

843
00:43:42.829 --> 00:43:44.679 A:middle L:90%
then one of the things we did with the day's

844
00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:46.829 A:middle L:90%
work was we connected it to a database that had

845
00:43:46.829 --> 00:43:51.619 A:middle L:90%
all of the content material for F 16, F

846
00:43:51.619 --> 00:43:55.519 A:middle L:90%
18 electrical avionics subsystems. So we had technical descriptions

847
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:59.480 A:middle L:90%
of the radar in the database. We had troubleshooting

848
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:01.780 A:middle L:90%
procedures, and then we would have a subject matter

849
00:44:01.780 --> 00:44:05.650 A:middle L:90%
expert. A technician say I need to provide some

850
00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:09.340 A:middle L:90%
refresher training for this particular newcomer out of out of

851
00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:12.940 A:middle L:90%
the text school. On removing the radar from an

852
00:44:12.940 --> 00:44:15.869 A:middle L:90%
aircraft, for example. The system would generate the

853
00:44:15.869 --> 00:44:17.000 A:middle L:90%
instruction on the fly. And I thought, Well

854
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.800 A:middle L:90%
, this is wonderful and Bob was sitting next to

855
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:21.630 A:middle L:90%
me. So I took this achievements that didn't this

856
00:44:21.630 --> 00:44:23.280 A:middle L:90%
wonderful box here. We we even conducted a test

857
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:27.090 A:middle L:90%
. We had a human expert designer do the same

858
00:44:27.090 --> 00:44:30.000 A:middle L:90%
task that took in three months that the computer did

859
00:44:30.010 --> 00:44:31.630 A:middle L:90%
in three minutes. Basically so. And you can't

860
00:44:31.630 --> 00:44:35.309 A:middle L:90%
tell one from the other, you know, and

861
00:44:35.309 --> 00:44:37.369 A:middle L:90%
Bob's response, and this really stuck with me.

862
00:44:37.380 --> 00:44:39.750 A:middle L:90%
It wasn't at all interesting what the computer. Did

863
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:43.710 A:middle L:90%
we understood how the computer was able to do that

864
00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.889 A:middle L:90%
? The interesting thing was how that expert designed that

865
00:44:45.889 --> 00:44:47.989 A:middle L:90%
instruction. That's what we need to find out.

866
00:44:47.989 --> 00:44:51.920 A:middle L:90%
Like so I was excited about the wrong kind of

867
00:44:51.929 --> 00:44:52.969 A:middle L:90%
thing, but he had such a general way of

868
00:44:52.969 --> 00:44:57.309 A:middle L:90%
telling me that I was walking down the wrong path

869
00:44:57.989 --> 00:45:07.250 A:middle L:90%
. Mhm. We are allowed to borrow. And

870
00:45:07.250 --> 00:45:09.860 A:middle L:90%
I got kicked off the project in Bob ST.

871
00:45:09.869 --> 00:45:15.099 A:middle L:90%
Uh, I'm very honored to be here, I

872
00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:16.380 A:middle L:90%
think, especially since I was never really a student

873
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:19.130 A:middle L:90%
of Bob Young. Yeah, but I don't suppose

874
00:45:19.130 --> 00:45:22.110 A:middle L:90%
there's anybody in the professional field that had had more

875
00:45:22.110 --> 00:45:24.409 A:middle L:90%
influence on me than Robert Young. He has.

876
00:45:24.789 --> 00:45:28.949 A:middle L:90%
And I thought I'd trace just briefly the history of

877
00:45:28.949 --> 00:45:30.190 A:middle L:90%
my involvement with Bob. And I'm gonna tell funny

878
00:45:30.190 --> 00:45:31.570 A:middle L:90%
stories, and I'm certainly not going to try to

879
00:45:31.570 --> 00:45:37.340 A:middle L:90%
imitate him. After Marcy Uh huh. In 1964

880
00:45:37.340 --> 00:45:38.389 A:middle L:90%
I was in graduate school and I wrote a paper

881
00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:40.940 A:middle L:90%
that I thought was extremely insightful, called two kinds

882
00:45:40.940 --> 00:45:43.760 A:middle L:90%
of Learning, and I submitted to my professor,

883
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:45.300 A:middle L:90%
Jack Adams, who said he thought it was also

884
00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:49.219 A:middle L:90%
very insightful and, uh, said perhaps I'd be

885
00:45:49.219 --> 00:45:51.980 A:middle L:90%
interested in reading a manuscript that he had just received

886
00:45:51.980 --> 00:45:54.050 A:middle L:90%
to review called The Conditions of Learning. And so

887
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:58.070 A:middle L:90%
I read the conditions of learning in manuscript form in

888
00:45:58.070 --> 00:46:00.190 A:middle L:90%
1964 just before it was published. And I wrote

889
00:46:00.190 --> 00:46:01.960 A:middle L:90%
a letter to Bob Gagne, who was then at

890
00:46:01.969 --> 00:46:06.349 A:middle L:90%
Berkeley and said, uh that I was very excited

891
00:46:06.349 --> 00:46:07.539 A:middle L:90%
about his book, but very frustrated that he'd just

892
00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:10.000 A:middle L:90%
written a book I intended to write. Uh huh

893
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:14.659 A:middle L:90%
. And so that was my first introduction. A

894
00:46:14.670 --> 00:46:16.309 A:middle L:90%
few months later, I went to my very first

895
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:21.250 A:middle L:90%
professional convention of the Southeast Psychological Association, met in

896
00:46:21.250 --> 00:46:23.159 A:middle L:90%
New Orleans, and, uh, I went to

897
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:27.280 A:middle L:90%
present my dissertation study that I was working on,

898
00:46:27.289 --> 00:46:29.690 A:middle L:90%
and there were three people in the audience. I

899
00:46:29.699 --> 00:46:30.500 A:middle L:90%
don't remember the other two were but one. Was

900
00:46:30.510 --> 00:46:34.230 A:middle L:90%
Bob gone yet? And, uh, after that

901
00:46:34.230 --> 00:46:36.670 A:middle L:90%
meeting, Bob and I sat and visited about my

902
00:46:36.670 --> 00:46:38.460 A:middle L:90%
dissertation for about 30 minutes, and that was my

903
00:46:38.469 --> 00:46:43.630 A:middle L:90%
first association with Bob, uh, subsequent to that

904
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.670 A:middle L:90%
because of the contributions which had made and especially the

905
00:46:45.670 --> 00:46:49.820 A:middle L:90%
conditions of learning, Uh, we were always trying

906
00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:51.760 A:middle L:90%
to BYU, and we're trying to get BYU on

907
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.099 A:middle L:90%
the map, uh, to get seminars at a

908
00:46:54.099 --> 00:46:57.920 A:middle L:90%
er A and a CT and other meetings. Uh

909
00:46:57.929 --> 00:47:00.139 A:middle L:90%
, we always invited Bob Young you to be on

910
00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:01.070 A:middle L:90%
our seminars. So I can't tell you how many

911
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:05.519 A:middle L:90%
different panels that I served on with Bob over those

912
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.750 A:middle L:90%
years, and that was a really great experience.

913
00:47:07.750 --> 00:47:09.599 A:middle L:90%
And so he had a tremendous influence on me and

914
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.500 A:middle L:90%
on my students during those years. I suppose to

915
00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:17.030 A:middle L:90%
really highlight of my career with Bob was in 1987

916
00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:20.699 A:middle L:90%
when I first went to Utah State University, and

917
00:47:20.699 --> 00:47:22.909 A:middle L:90%
when I got there, they knew of my association

918
00:47:22.909 --> 00:47:23.219 A:middle L:90%
with Bob and said, We would like you to

919
00:47:23.219 --> 00:47:25.219 A:middle L:90%
have We would like to have a debate between you

920
00:47:25.219 --> 00:47:29.670 A:middle L:90%
and Bob Gagnon instructional design theory, And I said

921
00:47:29.670 --> 00:47:31.949 A:middle L:90%
, I refused to debate Bob Gagne several reasons,

922
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:35.090 A:middle L:90%
one of which, I knew I wouldn't have a

923
00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:36.909 A:middle L:90%
chance. And second, uh, I said,

924
00:47:36.909 --> 00:47:38.699 A:middle L:90%
I don't disagree with anything. There's nothing to debate

925
00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:40.960 A:middle L:90%
. I said, I I don't have any disagreement

926
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:44.110 A:middle L:90%
. I do not see my work as contrary to

927
00:47:44.110 --> 00:47:45.960 A:middle L:90%
what Bob has done, I said, But I

928
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:49.010 A:middle L:90%
would be delighted to have a discussion with Bob Gagne

929
00:47:49.010 --> 00:47:49.889 A:middle L:90%
. And so they said, Well, if you

930
00:47:49.889 --> 00:47:51.519 A:middle L:90%
want to call a discussion That's okay. Would rather

931
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:52.250 A:middle L:90%
call it a debate because it would sell better.

932
00:47:52.650 --> 00:47:54.340 A:middle L:90%
And I said, I don't want I don't want

933
00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:57.409 A:middle L:90%
to debate. I want to discuss This was a

934
00:47:57.409 --> 00:48:00.219 A:middle L:90%
very interesting arrangement happened to be on my wedding anniversary

935
00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:02.179 A:middle L:90%
on July 10th. I remember that my wife said

936
00:48:02.179 --> 00:48:05.699 A:middle L:90%
this was a very interesting way to spend an anniversary

937
00:48:06.070 --> 00:48:08.360 A:middle L:90%
, and we were on a raised platform. There

938
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.829 A:middle L:90%
were about 200 people in the audience. We were

939
00:48:10.829 --> 00:48:15.289 A:middle L:90%
both seated in an armchair with an overhead projector next

940
00:48:15.289 --> 00:48:16.159 A:middle L:90%
to us. And so we were where we could

941
00:48:16.170 --> 00:48:19.360 A:middle L:90%
touch one another. And then on the outside of

942
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:22.539 A:middle L:90%
our armchairs with the overhead projectors that were behind us

943
00:48:22.539 --> 00:48:25.010 A:middle L:90%
and they televised or they video this discussion, this

944
00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:29.320 A:middle L:90%
went on. We had 4 90 minute sessions throughout

945
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:30.239 A:middle L:90%
the day, uh, where we just sat the

946
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:31.960 A:middle L:90%
two of us and talked. And then at the

947
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:35.409 A:middle L:90%
end of each of these sessions, we had a

948
00:48:35.409 --> 00:48:37.250 A:middle L:90%
set of questions. Now, if any of you

949
00:48:37.250 --> 00:48:39.059 A:middle L:90%
would like to view that it's on video, and

950
00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:40.929 A:middle L:90%
if you will send me an email, that video

951
00:48:40.929 --> 00:48:43.710 A:middle L:90%
is available. I know some of you have that

952
00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:45.340 A:middle L:90%
, uh but the the video was heavily edited,

953
00:48:45.349 --> 00:48:47.260 A:middle L:90%
by the way. So the videos are only about

954
00:48:47.260 --> 00:48:50.449 A:middle L:90%
an hour each. Uh, but that was put

955
00:48:50.449 --> 00:48:52.539 A:middle L:90%
on video. And subsequently, uh, the essence

956
00:48:52.550 --> 00:48:57.050 A:middle L:90%
of those discussions were published in it technology, uh

957
00:48:57.059 --> 00:48:59.909 A:middle L:90%
, in, uh, seventh consecutive issues in the

958
00:48:59.909 --> 00:49:01.900 A:middle L:90%
1990 I believe. Is that what it was?

959
00:49:01.909 --> 00:49:06.429 A:middle L:90%
I think it was 99. Uh, but any

960
00:49:06.429 --> 00:49:08.269 A:middle L:90%
resemblance to what's in it technology and what was actually

961
00:49:08.269 --> 00:49:10.409 A:middle L:90%
said I would invite you to read and listen to

962
00:49:10.409 --> 00:49:13.699 A:middle L:90%
the video and then read, and because there's almost

963
00:49:13.699 --> 00:49:15.150 A:middle L:90%
no resemblance because by the time Bob got to editing

964
00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:20.179 A:middle L:90%
, uh, the two things are quite different.

965
00:49:20.190 --> 00:49:22.480 A:middle L:90%
But this was a great experience for me, and

966
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.840 A:middle L:90%
I think I remember very strongly in the second hour

967
00:49:25.849 --> 00:49:29.599 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, it was not really adversarial, but

968
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.210 A:middle L:90%
a kind of a debate format in the first hour

969
00:49:31.210 --> 00:49:34.710 A:middle L:90%
and in the second hour, as I was talking

970
00:49:34.710 --> 00:49:37.199 A:middle L:90%
about my ideas about knowledge, structures and so forth

971
00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:38.489 A:middle L:90%
, Bob turned to me all of a sudden,

972
00:49:38.489 --> 00:49:39.989 A:middle L:90%
put his hand on my knee, and he said

973
00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:43.400 A:middle L:90%
, You don't really disagree with me, do you

974
00:49:43.769 --> 00:49:45.170 A:middle L:90%
? And I said, No, Bob, all

975
00:49:45.170 --> 00:49:45.949 A:middle L:90%
I've ever tried to do is say what you said

976
00:49:45.949 --> 00:49:47.650 A:middle L:90%
or should have said, He said. You're not

977
00:49:47.650 --> 00:49:52.429 A:middle L:90%
kind away at the last category, uh, which

978
00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:59.489 A:middle L:90%
is probably true subsequent to that. The next day

979
00:49:59.489 --> 00:50:00.360 A:middle L:90%
I said to you know, uh, he was

980
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:02.369 A:middle L:90%
getting a little long in years of those points and

981
00:50:02.369 --> 00:50:04.880 A:middle L:90%
I said, You know, why don't you stay

982
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:06.269 A:middle L:90%
one more day? We'll go up to my Bear

983
00:50:06.269 --> 00:50:07.199 A:middle L:90%
Lake cabin and, uh, we just sit and

984
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:09.570 A:middle L:90%
relax in the sun before you fly home. And

985
00:50:09.570 --> 00:50:12.349 A:middle L:90%
he agreed to do that. So the next day

986
00:50:12.349 --> 00:50:15.500 A:middle L:90%
we had a very informal, lovely day sitting on

987
00:50:15.500 --> 00:50:17.110 A:middle L:90%
the deck, just chatting about all kinds of things

988
00:50:17.110 --> 00:50:19.619 A:middle L:90%
, and during the afternoon, he said, You

989
00:50:19.619 --> 00:50:21.610 A:middle L:90%
know, he said, if you and I could

990
00:50:21.610 --> 00:50:23.280 A:middle L:90%
get together and agree on some vocabulary, we'd really

991
00:50:23.289 --> 00:50:25.829 A:middle L:90%
influence the field. And I thought that was very

992
00:50:25.829 --> 00:50:30.309 A:middle L:90%
nice for him to include me in that I said

993
00:50:30.309 --> 00:50:30.699 A:middle L:90%
, That's a great idea. Let's do that,

994
00:50:30.710 --> 00:50:32.380 A:middle L:90%
he said. Let's find a way to get together

995
00:50:32.860 --> 00:50:37.000 A:middle L:90%
. Well, subsequent to that, Eric Roberts and

996
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:38.440 A:middle L:90%
some others arranged for Bob Pyongyang, and I'd immediate

997
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:42.170 A:middle L:90%
the American Academy of Science for an entire week.

998
00:50:42.179 --> 00:50:44.610 A:middle L:90%
Just Bob and I across the desk from each other

999
00:50:44.619 --> 00:50:46.400 A:middle L:90%
with the recorder and Eric in the room and to

1000
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:50.260 A:middle L:90%
have a conversation about instructional design. And our agreement

1001
00:50:50.260 --> 00:50:52.119 A:middle L:90%
was that we would come up with some vocabulary we

1002
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:54.539 A:middle L:90%
could agree on. And so we talked for six

1003
00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:58.920 A:middle L:90%
hours for five days. This is 30 individual hours

1004
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.880 A:middle L:90%
. That's probably more than all these graduate students got

1005
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.989 A:middle L:90%
with, Uh, what a great opportunity that was

1006
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:05.940 A:middle L:90%
for me. It was a little frustrating, however

1007
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:07.349 A:middle L:90%
, because the end of every day, I thought

1008
00:51:07.349 --> 00:51:08.400 A:middle L:90%
I'd really convinced Bob about some things. The next

1009
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:12.119 A:middle L:90%
morning would be right back to where we were a

1010
00:51:12.130 --> 00:51:14.880 A:middle L:90%
previous morning. Um, but we had a really

1011
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.179 A:middle L:90%
wonderful conversation, and at the end of that,

1012
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:20.130 A:middle L:90%
we agreed on one vocabulary word which no one had

1013
00:51:20.130 --> 00:51:22.829 A:middle L:90%
used before Enterprise. And, uh so we weren't

1014
00:51:22.829 --> 00:51:25.250 A:middle L:90%
successful at our goal, But we had a tremendous

1015
00:51:25.250 --> 00:51:28.400 A:middle L:90%
opportunity. The really sad part for that to me

1016
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:30.889 A:middle L:90%
was that the all of the audio recordings of that

1017
00:51:30.900 --> 00:51:31.559 A:middle L:90%
when I got home, I put them in the

1018
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:36.099 A:middle L:90%
recorder and it went, uh, no one had

1019
00:51:36.099 --> 00:51:38.050 A:middle L:90%
checked the mic and the technician that we had recording

1020
00:51:38.050 --> 00:51:42.289 A:middle L:90%
these. So I have a box full of recordings

1021
00:51:42.289 --> 00:51:44.539 A:middle L:90%
. 30 hours of conversation with Bob Janjuah, none

1022
00:51:44.539 --> 00:51:46.570 A:middle L:90%
of which is audible to me. Um, so

1023
00:51:46.579 --> 00:51:49.940 A:middle L:90%
some of you are really great audio technicians. You

1024
00:51:49.940 --> 00:51:51.139 A:middle L:90%
may want to look at that. Maybe it could

1025
00:51:51.139 --> 00:51:53.440 A:middle L:90%
be resurrected A nevertheless, that was a great opportunity

1026
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:58.619 A:middle L:90%
. We decided to write about our discussions. And

1027
00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:00.639 A:middle L:90%
so I wrote the first draft of this turned out

1028
00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:02.420 A:middle L:90%
to be about 65 pages long, uh, of

1029
00:52:02.420 --> 00:52:05.420 A:middle L:90%
our discussions and send it to Bob for editing.

1030
00:52:05.420 --> 00:52:07.179 A:middle L:90%
It came back. It was 11 pages long.

1031
00:52:08.750 --> 00:52:10.630 A:middle L:90%
I then rewrote it and send it back. It

1032
00:52:10.630 --> 00:52:13.559 A:middle L:90%
was about 50 pages long and it came back and

1033
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:17.309 A:middle L:90%
it was nine pages long and subsequently it was published

1034
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.420 A:middle L:90%
. Uh, it's included in the Legacy book,

1035
00:52:20.429 --> 00:52:22.860 A:middle L:90%
The book on Enterprise, uh, which I think

1036
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:24.710 A:middle L:90%
was an important contribution. And I was really thrilled

1037
00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:28.030 A:middle L:90%
that I could be a joint author with Bob along

1038
00:52:28.030 --> 00:52:30.969 A:middle L:90%
with some of his students. Also subsequent to that

1039
00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:32.480 A:middle L:90%
, we went to Florida State for the to replicate

1040
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.639 A:middle L:90%
what we had done at Utah State, and they

1041
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:37.369 A:middle L:90%
again wanted to suppose this is a debate. And

1042
00:52:37.369 --> 00:52:39.070 A:middle L:90%
this time Bob said, No, I will not

1043
00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:42.610 A:middle L:90%
debate Dave Merrill, and we had a great discussion

1044
00:52:42.610 --> 00:52:45.980 A:middle L:90%
about knowledge, objects and, uh, about learning

1045
00:52:45.980 --> 00:52:47.139 A:middle L:90%
objects and some of the things that before the learning

1046
00:52:47.139 --> 00:52:51.969 A:middle L:90%
objects got famous, uh, subsequent. And we

1047
00:52:51.969 --> 00:52:53.429 A:middle L:90%
had a great discussion there at Florida State as well

1048
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:55.530 A:middle L:90%
. Um, and I don't know if that was

1049
00:52:55.530 --> 00:52:58.659 A:middle L:90%
ever recorded. I don't think so, but and

1050
00:52:58.659 --> 00:53:00.300 A:middle L:90%
subsequently and I was meeting in his office and I

1051
00:53:00.309 --> 00:53:01.960 A:middle L:90%
talked to him and I said, Bob, you

1052
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:05.000 A:middle L:90%
know, I'm trying to push you to go to

1053
00:53:05.010 --> 00:53:07.539 A:middle L:90%
computerized versions and how we represent knowledge for computers.

1054
00:53:07.539 --> 00:53:09.019 A:middle L:90%
And he drew a line on a piece of paper

1055
00:53:09.019 --> 00:53:12.010 A:middle L:90%
and he said, What I've tried to do,

1056
00:53:12.010 --> 00:53:15.219 A:middle L:90%
he said, is to prevent there's present recommendations for

1057
00:53:15.219 --> 00:53:17.840 A:middle L:90%
designers that life designers could use. He said,

1058
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.190 A:middle L:90%
I'm not too interested in putting things on a computer

1059
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:22.630 A:middle L:90%
. But he said, I think that this is

1060
00:53:22.630 --> 00:53:23.699 A:middle L:90%
a great way to go. So he said,

1061
00:53:23.699 --> 00:53:25.360 A:middle L:90%
he shut the paper with a friend and he said

1062
00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:30.849 A:middle L:90%
, So you take it from here. I felt

1063
00:53:30.849 --> 00:53:31.760 A:middle L:90%
like that was a really kind of handing off of

1064
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:36.119 A:middle L:90%
the gunman. Let me just quickly closed by summarizing

1065
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:37.219 A:middle L:90%
some of the influence that Bob has had on my

1066
00:53:37.219 --> 00:53:39.860 A:middle L:90%
word. Uh, in 1964. When I read

1067
00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:43.019 A:middle L:90%
the manuscript copy of the Conditions of Learning, I

1068
00:53:43.019 --> 00:53:45.099 A:middle L:90%
thought it was the most important book that I had

1069
00:53:45.099 --> 00:53:46.619 A:middle L:90%
ever read in this field, and I still do

1070
00:53:46.630 --> 00:53:49.909 A:middle L:90%
. I think that the conditions of learning are the

1071
00:53:49.909 --> 00:53:52.579 A:middle L:90%
classic, and I'm disappointed when people don't still read

1072
00:53:52.579 --> 00:53:54.750 A:middle L:90%
it. I think it should be required reading for

1073
00:53:54.750 --> 00:53:58.269 A:middle L:90%
every instructional designer. I think it is one of

1074
00:53:58.269 --> 00:54:00.389 A:middle L:90%
the classic works and that that work is still extremely

1075
00:54:00.389 --> 00:54:04.489 A:middle L:90%
important. Uh, component display theory. My own

1076
00:54:04.489 --> 00:54:07.329 A:middle L:90%
word was really an attempt to clarify the conditions of

1077
00:54:07.329 --> 00:54:08.409 A:middle L:90%
learning. I just felt like there were some things

1078
00:54:08.420 --> 00:54:10.050 A:middle L:90%
for me were not as clear as they could have

1079
00:54:10.050 --> 00:54:13.269 A:middle L:90%
been. We came up with a two way classification

1080
00:54:13.420 --> 00:54:15.110 A:middle L:90%
. We came up with the notion that I thought

1081
00:54:15.110 --> 00:54:15.860 A:middle L:90%
the conditions weren't as clear as they could be.

1082
00:54:15.860 --> 00:54:17.710 A:middle L:90%
My father was an artist and always taught me that

1083
00:54:17.710 --> 00:54:20.280 A:middle L:90%
you could paint any picture of the red, yellow

1084
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:22.269 A:middle L:90%
and blue crayon. So I thought we ought to

1085
00:54:22.269 --> 00:54:24.250 A:middle L:90%
come up with primary presentation forms that we could clarify

1086
00:54:24.250 --> 00:54:27.699 A:middle L:90%
Gandhi's condition. But in fact, come on display

1087
00:54:27.699 --> 00:54:30.730 A:middle L:90%
theory was really an attempt to clarify the conditions of

1088
00:54:30.730 --> 00:54:34.269 A:middle L:90%
learning, uh, elaboration theory that I worked on

1089
00:54:34.269 --> 00:54:36.769 A:middle L:90%
with Charlie Raglan and Charlie went on to really extend

1090
00:54:36.769 --> 00:54:37.449 A:middle L:90%
a great deal. Uh, it was really an

1091
00:54:37.449 --> 00:54:39.809 A:middle L:90%
extension of hierarchy analysis. Charlie and I worked on

1092
00:54:39.809 --> 00:54:44.900 A:middle L:90%
extended task analysis and elaboration. Theory was really grew

1093
00:54:44.900 --> 00:54:49.050 A:middle L:90%
out of our trying to deal with hierarchy analysis and

1094
00:54:49.050 --> 00:54:50.519 A:middle L:90%
how it worked, and we thought that there needed

1095
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:52.679 A:middle L:90%
to be more than what was in the literature.

1096
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:53.139 A:middle L:90%
So these are some of the things I thought Bob

1097
00:54:53.139 --> 00:54:55.559 A:middle L:90%
should have said. And as we moved into that

1098
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:59.900 A:middle L:90%
area more recently worked on transaction theory, which was

1099
00:54:59.900 --> 00:55:01.880 A:middle L:90%
an attempt to capture in an algorithm in a computer

1100
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:06.619 A:middle L:90%
algorithm those conditions of learning for various learning outcomes.

1101
00:55:06.619 --> 00:55:07.750 A:middle L:90%
So we tried to automate that to capture it,

1102
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:10.269 A:middle L:90%
and then more recently than that, we worked on

1103
00:55:10.269 --> 00:55:14.230 A:middle L:90%
knowledge objects, which is really an attempt to take

1104
00:55:14.230 --> 00:55:16.190 A:middle L:90%
the type of outcomes and make it more explicit and

1105
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:19.699 A:middle L:90%
talk about how we could represent it. So almost

1106
00:55:19.699 --> 00:55:21.659 A:middle L:90%
all the work that I've done has really been an

1107
00:55:21.659 --> 00:55:23.969 A:middle L:90%
outgrowth of Junior, and finally, the most recent

1108
00:55:23.969 --> 00:55:27.519 A:middle L:90%
work that I've talked about recently is first principles where

1109
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.179 A:middle L:90%
I've looked at a lot of theories and tried to

1110
00:55:29.179 --> 00:55:30.710 A:middle L:90%
look at the principles they have in common, and

1111
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:35.269 A:middle L:90%
and they thing that we've decided there is that really

1112
00:55:35.269 --> 00:55:37.869 A:middle L:90%
effective learning. His problem centered, This is not

1113
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:39.590 A:middle L:90%
the problem based. We make that distinction. And

1114
00:55:39.590 --> 00:55:43.050 A:middle L:90%
as I looked again at the article above and I

1115
00:55:43.050 --> 00:55:44.420 A:middle L:90%
wrote an enterprise, I said, Oh, my

1116
00:55:44.420 --> 00:55:46.179 A:middle L:90%
gosh. Here. This is exactly where I got

1117
00:55:46.179 --> 00:55:49.929 A:middle L:90%
that idea from. And so I am really have

1118
00:55:49.940 --> 00:55:52.840 A:middle L:90%
been influenced in my career by Bob Gagne and Bob

1119
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:54.510 A:middle L:90%
, If you're here today, thanks for the contribution

1120
00:55:54.510 --> 00:55:59.019 A:middle L:90%
you made to my career and remember, all I

1121
00:55:59.019 --> 00:56:00.730 A:middle L:90%
ever did was say what you said or should have

1122
00:56:00.730 --> 00:56:19.920 A:middle L:90%
said. Well, that was definitely an interesting hour

1123
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:22.460 A:middle L:90%
. I want to thank everyone who contributed to this

1124
00:56:22.460 --> 00:56:24.809 A:middle L:90%
all of you. Wonderful stories. Thanks, Bob

1125
00:56:24.820 --> 00:56:27.300 A:middle L:90%
. He is here, and I'm sure he was

1126
00:56:27.309 --> 00:56:30.349 A:middle L:90%
laughing the hardest at the stories we told about him

1127
00:56:30.929 --> 00:56:34.650 A:middle L:90%
. Right party. I guess I have nothing else

1128
00:56:34.650 --> 00:56:37.730 A:middle L:90%
to add except to extend my thanks for for coming

1129
00:56:37.730 --> 00:56:45.460 A:middle L:90%
and celebrating this with, uh, we had a