WEBVTT

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alright, we're recording and just so you know any

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anything it's totally safe environment so if you say something

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and go get use that right, we will use

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it um and you can solve the wreck or anything

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like that just just say so. Okay. Okay

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. Okay. Okay. Okay. Very good.

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So this is kind of fun for me because a

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lot of people have interviewed, I've known for a

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long time or known at least for a while and

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I don't know you very well so um they know

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the answer is I mean it's quite uh so what

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when did you come Came here in early to mid

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70s, but I came here as a student.

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Right, So that's when you came here and um

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Spring of 67 as a student. Yeah. So

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Talk to me about summer of 67 that spring.

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Okay. So you came here as an undergrad as

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an underground trip. Okay. So what brought you

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, what brought you to take? Um I had

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been interested in architecture from an early age, but

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I as young people do they find out about different

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career choices. And I rode away to the area

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and received a brochure and in the brochure it said

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this field is not recommended for women, wow.

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So I thought, well, Mhm. What?

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So I didn't think too much about that, except

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it wasn't. So I thought, well I had

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been directed in this way because enjoying mathematics and enjoying

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art, you know, so you're directed and I've

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studied frank Lloyd wright. But anyway, so I

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just looked in another direction and I went I started

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in a school in ST louis actually Columbia Missouri and

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then I thought that wasn't quite a fit and then

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came here in the summer program, not as an

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official student but as a summer student. So you

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actually chose tech basically be right back. Okay.

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So um it's my fault. That is so you

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can protect not because you were in Virginia and it

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just worked out, but because of the reputation of

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the school, oh, person who knew our family

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knew of the summer program. And so Donna might

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be interested in this. And so just tried it

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. I was thinking to go to another institution actually

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in the fall, but after the summer program and

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I thought this could be a way and I'd forgotten

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this business about not recommended for women, Although there

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were a few women in my group, it didn't

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seem to be an issue as far as I was

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concerned. And you've been teaching the summer studio.

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We teach. I've taught in the summer school.

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Yeah. In the first year and second year and

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some of the upper I've taught mainly across the board

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. But because you came here in this, I'm

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just curious to that, Was that something that,

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that was exciting for you to think about, you

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know, teaching in the summer. Uh, it's

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a different pace, so it's totally different. It's

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exciting both ways. I don't make a distinction.

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Yeah. So you're here as a student and then

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you graduated in, stay on the teacher. Did

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you go work and then come back, graduated and

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went to Denver colorado to practice and practice there for

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a number of years and then came back here to

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work on a masters without particular notion about teaching.

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Just that there might be some teaching along with that

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work. And one thing followed another and here I

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am. That's interesting because that seems to be a

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number of people came here for masters. So is

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it different where you expected to teach as a graduate

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student? I had a teaching assistantship. So I

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yanked out with fourth year group. I got to

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know with students of course. So when did you

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involve me in? Is that part of the,

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did you guys meet here? We met here,

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We met here students. Yeah. Time to meet

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a lot of different people from all over. So

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that's where we met. You can see people producing

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work and that's always informative to see how they work

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and what they do in a given situation. Okay

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. Um, well, so this is the focus

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of the film is really on, it's gonna broken

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into three parts. The way I see it,

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this sort of pre Bircher Ferrari days, sort of

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the inception of coming out of the School of Engineering

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and becoming its own school, then sort of that

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hey day, it seems to me of Berkshire Ferrari

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and that whole game, which your party, you

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can certainly speak to that and then, okay,

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post that period, the current thing. Um,

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so what can you tell me about the, I

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guess what I'm particularly interested in is how the educational

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model here was so different and so sort of almost

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maybe not revolutionary, but yeah, it was,

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it was a different way of teaching architecture and it

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seems like a really exciting time to, uh,

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it was an exciting time. It is an exciting

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time presently. That's where the, no looking forward

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and looking back at a certain point, they're almost

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the same. You know, there's this present that

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keeps on moving. Um, and you're immersed in

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something and it's exciting and it keeps on going and

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that's what you realize, find like keeps on going

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and, and you keep on going with it because

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you find out more and more and I think that's

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how it was, how it is now. So

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do you see at least maybe compared to other schools

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that what was happening here was special was different than

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other? I can't say that because I was familiar

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with a few other programs, but I didn't look

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at programs and then decided to come here. I

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was in a totally different field and switched into architecture

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now as I visit schools a lot and I can

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see there are some differences. So do you think

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that so my understanding talking, doing these interviews is

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that this school was just sort of a typical coming

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out of engineering kind of a program. And then

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then the merchant came and Yeah, yeah. Uh

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T marshall on President on, I told him do

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whatever you need to do. I want to top

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architecture probably. He he had launched to do whatever

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he wanted to do. And then he brought Ferrari

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, Ferrari brought in people that he brought in encouraging

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people like that we're here. Um and it,

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from what I've heard is they really just, you

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know, well, Ferrari taking the sort of bauhaus

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, uh huh model, uh huh And it just

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it seems like that was that was the found the

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formation of what the school was now. So,

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I guess what I'd like for the film is sort

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of an idea of how that legacy continues and how

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, you know, the school is, I guess

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maybe if you can talk to some of those ideas

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that may be different from, from either traditional study

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of architecture that we are using, those kinds of

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models. Well, I think 11 difference that you

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might say, um although one similarity to start out

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with the similarity, I think in all schools,

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the faculty are always questioning what's going on to some

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extent and they're questioning even if they repeat uh huh

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of course, or a syllabus, they might do

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that. I think the questions still arise. I

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think the questions here arose and were expected to be

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there always as a part of what was going on

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. Questions of the curriculum. Questions of the nature

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of the school on a day to day basis.

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I think this was a large question. What's the

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school on a day to day basis? The legacy

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of the bauhaus? Some people will say this is

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about how school? Well, not exactly. Or

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is it an old school? No, not exactly

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. But I think what is carried over from those

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places, those places were trying to define themselves in

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their time and that's what's persistent here. This place

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is trying to find itself in its time and say

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what an architect designer needs to know, what do

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they need to know and how are they in that

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world and when do they graduate into the room?

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And that time hopefully is before graduation, Although for

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some it's after graduation, maybe they come to understand

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what is here after they graduate rather than before.

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So I think that's the excitement of the place to

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see that graduation occur prior to the, The schematics

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of when you graduate in five or 4 years,

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depending on a design or architecture program. So it

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sounds like what you're saying is it's the school itself

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is constantly, is constantly changing and re asking that

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question of what, what, what should we be

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now, what do we need to be now?

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I think it's persistently active and of course, there

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with different individuals, there comes this another possibility,

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another set of possibilities. But I think we're always

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interested or curious what the situation is now. You

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don't give away the past necessarily, but you don't

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give away the future. That's great. Yeah,

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But we do still have. And uh one of

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the things that I I just I didn't know anything

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about architecture when I came here when I was 18

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, and one of the things that I immediately just

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fell in love with it was so excited by was

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finding out that there is this multi disciplinary approach where

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I didn't I didn't know much about film before I

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came to architecture. My love of film came out

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of architecture. I to me that maybe it's not

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unique here, but that was something that was so

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special that I found when I was here was just

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, you know, whether it's weaving or film or

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carpentry or you know, there's pottery, there are

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all these things that that you haven't healed. Remember

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, talk to my mom on the phone and tell

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you what she's like, What does that have to

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do with architecture? It's like, that's the thing

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, that's the thing to find out the kind of

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person that you want to be to find out the

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direction or, or the kind of person you are

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, are you a good person? Are you a

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paper person or you film person and then to remain

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open? Hopefully to be challenged by the thought of

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this other person. It could be. So you

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think that's the idea behind the I just, I'd

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love to hear you talk to wait to that approach

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. And what do you think that does for a

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student? Well, it's a it's a, it's

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a world, it's a place certainly. And I

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think if you want to draw distinctions among schools,

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it's the school that can remain vital No. over

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a 24 hour cycle and what that 24 hour cycle

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is now, Most schools find themselves in the home

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of the university and the university has its, its

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pace and what it does, but it's always important

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to develop beyond that and to see what is the

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life of the school and is the life beyond a

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given class. We expect our students to know each

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other to know all the faculties and all the faculty

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or their facts. This is a difficult idea for

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a student to grasp, hold off. And how

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do you, how do you foster that as a

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possibility? Because it's unfortunate if you have all these

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faculty and the students don't have the possibility to take

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advantage of, not that they have to take a

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course and it hopefully becomes a habit or curiosity about

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the rest of the university, that you don't have

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to have a course with the faculty to get to

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know them and get to know what they know.

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How do you foster, Well, I think this

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building, in a sense, we've been very fortunate

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that the building is an open building and you probably

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show images. There really aren't walls. So it's

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possible to Make note of something that's five ft away

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or 50 ft away or 75 ft away or one

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floor down. And I think it's, it's more

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of a habit of the faculty to engage the whole

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of the enterprise, not simply be bounded by a

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glass and every, I think everyone's always encouraged to

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leave things out things up on the laws and leave

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on every desk. You see, you see a

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life at work. Yeah. And that's an advantage

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. Even even today with all the digital technology,

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all of our students, each one has a desk

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and you see the life that's there and then it's

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exciting because it's the thing you really want to have

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happen where one student has the opportunity to get to

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know another student because they are thinking in the same

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pathways but may not realize that each other exists stuff

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. It's possible to let them get to know another

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person or another way of work and also the students

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helping students, there's certain things that, you know

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, you just, I think you take for granted

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I did before I left here, one of them

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is the 24 hour built Cooper Union shutdown at one

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a.m. you were kicked out and I just couldn't fathom

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that we used to stay here until you stay here

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all night working. Uh huh. There's things like

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that that I think just make this school exactly what

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you're talking. Yeah, there's something going on all

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the time. That's where it's challenging, particularly in

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the studio because the building is filled and that lobby

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in particular on a daily basis is filled with things

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that can be part of the conversation. And I

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think that's really what we try to do here is

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to construct a conversation at the end of the day

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. What was the conversation like today? Do you

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see any difference over the years with? I think

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one of the interesting things now for me being a

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little bit older is seeing how and I think we

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all wax nostalgic our time. Everybody is so into

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the computer and so into their devices. It seems

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like it would be much, it seems like it

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would be harder to foster that. Would you that

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openness, that environment you're talking. Is that do

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you find that or is it not the game?

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No, not so much. Um Uh huh Maybe

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it will grow that way. But I think we'll

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work with that. I think the computer, the

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digital world is simply another media. The dark room

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was the media. Is the media. We still

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have an operational darker shop is loaded with media.

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We have a pottery and a printmaking studio. So

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it's more to see that as the possibility of an

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evolving practice certainly. But to also see it in

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the instance of it being a media. So when

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is the media necessary? When can a print from

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the print lab challenge A three dimensional model or when

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can it challenge a cab driver? It's an easy

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it's an easy challenge actually. Uh huh. But

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to illuminate that possibility for the students so that they

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realize they're the media world is wide open and digital

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. It has encompassed certain schools. Certainly there are

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paperless studios. That's that's a possibility. But we

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would like our students to have the possibility to know

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more things. It's exciting to see when people do

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. Do you know, I think embrace both things

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. Like I sat next to Maria lash and it

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was wonderful to see him doing things that he was

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doing in the computer. But then also he had

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his prints and he had things that he was doing

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outside. He I really enjoyed watching him work and

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seeing how he sort of okay can embrace all of

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it and use all of it because sometimes maybe there's

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more architecture in the Prince than and in the architectural

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project and the Prince need to challenge the project and

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a student can get a grasp of it more directly

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because they are building those things. Now. This

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is I'm going to ask you this because the answers

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I've gotten to this question of, it's so fascinating

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and very different. Um where do you see the

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role of architecture education in terms of preparing somebody for

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practice? Do you think that that is something that

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if somebody lives here unprepared for practice, then then

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that's a bad thing or is that irrelevant? Has

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nothing to do with? I'm sure you get all

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kinds of answers to that question. You can't be

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irrelevant, but in a certain way, the architect

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needs to be larger than the world of practice.

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So how do you get to that place? Uh

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it seems it has seemed in different periods of time

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. Clearly the students leaving in a way where larger

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could offer the practices more? Not less, wow

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. And that's exciting when that happens, when the

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practices see that, and we have that happening even

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today, where there will be a practice, there

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will be an office that realizes the students can bring

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something to the office that that office has a hard

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time to achieve on its own. So I would

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say the students are always ready. It's it's whether

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the practice is open to receive what the students have

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to offer, man, I think that's that aspect

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of the answer has been consistent. I think that

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that when you got a practice that has is open

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to it, you know, the best possible outcome

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is students come out and push practice. Mm But

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but I think our students have shown great success where

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they enter typical practices and have significant impacts. I

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spoke to Ray caliber a while back, I interviewed

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her for for practice and he had wonderful things to

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say. Yeah. And I think, you know

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, when you see that somebody who who comes out

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, I mean he's obviously an incredibly hard work but

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just, you know, rises to level so quickly

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in a firm like like palm springs Key Jackson.

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To me, that's just I think that says a

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lot. He credits the school endlessly for preparing.

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No, well, if you have more dimensions,

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it perhaps it's not a guarantee, but perhaps it

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paves the way for more opportunity. You have more

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alternatives that sometimes helpful to have more alternative. Yeah

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. So I'm I would like to turn if you're

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willing or you can think of any just some stories

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that you have uh stories. You know, whether

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they're stories about uh yeah, Olivia or lucy or

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you and bob anything that you want to share that

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you think might be a story. Mhm. No

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, not really stories. I mean, I have

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stories, but not really. No. There there

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are so many stories, it's hard to identify the

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story actually, whether it's student, each student is

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a story that's um each student has their own story

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. And when you have the opportunity to be in

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a school where it's possible to look beyond and through

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where you're teaching at that particular moment, you have

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the opportunity to know that student through their whole time

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here and that is significant. I would say there

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are so many stories, it's hard to choose one

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or two. It's uh this is the side of

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it, is that your favorite thing about teaching?

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It seems to me like to see what the students

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do. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing what

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they do. I'm constantly surprised. Well, if

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you think it almost couldn't get better, if you

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think so, you have 20 students in a given

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lab and you're working on one kind of thing or

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another, they veer off and it doesn't matter.

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But just to have that much creative activity and questioning

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and not not every student is running on all cylinders

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. This is part of it so that they can

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get to the point where their curiosity takes care of

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them that they don't need to rely on us.

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But anyway to have 20 students all working on things

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, it's amazing to see how they progress. Let's

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see what they do converse with them. Are you

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always trying to um encourage economy? Innocent for?

381
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Oh no, no. The students work separately.

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They work together. Uh huh. I think they're

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very empathetic. Although not in all cases there are

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individuals that are by themselves and but there's an empathy

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oftentimes for those students to remain autonomous. Yeah,

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respect of the so there's a full range I guess

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what I meant is in terms of uh, your

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role in their work. Are you pushing for a

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sort of self directed discovery? Are you, is

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that I know that's not always possible. I'm just

391
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curious if that's if that's something that's exciting for you

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and that. Well, what's exciting that they start

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to realize what it takes to have a discovery?

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You can have discoveries by accident, which that's okay

395
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of and you can have discovery, can't order up

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a discovery, You can have a discovery that occurs

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because the ground has been prepared and you have been

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diligent in that preparation. They've been diligent in that

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preparation and together you you can talk about situations both

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in their projects, but that's where having the whole

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of the school to draw upon to show them what

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can happen a discovery elsewhere. They oftentimes see their

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00:26:26.779 --> 00:26:30.720 A:middle L:90%
own work better through the work of another student or

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00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:36.859 A:middle L:90%
an instance in the world, then they understand.

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Yeah. Okay, well, quite happy with,

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I guess you've already kind of spoken to this,

407
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:49.349 A:middle L:90%
but I where do you see the school in the

408
00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.730 A:middle L:90%
future? Do you think it's just this constant reinvention

409
00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:55.759 A:middle L:90%
? And it's impossible to say because it'll be what

410
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.559 A:middle L:90%
it needs severe. I think it's it's important for

411
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:06.150 A:middle L:90%
to keep the conversation going. Oh, that's not

412
00:27:06.150 --> 00:27:08.849 A:middle L:90%
so easy to do. Uh huh. You need

413
00:27:08.849 --> 00:27:15.970 A:middle L:90%
to kind of have a full commitment that this proceeds

414
00:27:15.980 --> 00:27:21.769 A:middle L:90%
. It's very easy for these things to decline.

415
00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:25.849 A:middle L:90%
Uh huh. Little things can cause it to decline

416
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.180 A:middle L:90%
. So it takes a group of people who are

417
00:27:30.190 --> 00:27:37.160 A:middle L:90%
interested. Two have a place where curiosity, Oh

418
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.769 A:middle L:90%
, curiosity is alive and well, right. So

419
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:45.369 A:middle L:90%
, yeah, ask your migration. So when,

420
00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:49.859 A:middle L:90%
when you have, because clearly there's been this history

421
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:52.819 A:middle L:90%
with the school of hiring people who went to the

422
00:27:52.819 --> 00:27:56.529 A:middle L:90%
school. And I think for a continuity of education

423
00:27:56.529 --> 00:27:57.769 A:middle L:90%
, I think that makes perfect sense. Um,

424
00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:02.109 A:middle L:90%
for for that there's a lot of new hires and

425
00:28:02.109 --> 00:28:03.180 A:middle L:90%
there's a lot of change over. How do you

426
00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:04.640 A:middle L:90%
, how do you do that? How do you

427
00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:07.660 A:middle L:90%
maintain that you're speaking to? Because it seems to

428
00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:11.390 A:middle L:90%
me like that has to come from faculty obviously.

429
00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:15.460 A:middle L:90%
And well, a conversation, you know, it

430
00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:19.200 A:middle L:90%
always takes too. So part of the conversation is

431
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.769 A:middle L:90%
listening. I don't think a conversation works if one

432
00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:27.190 A:middle L:90%
is telling another one. Right? So it's,

433
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.559 A:middle L:90%
uh, curiosity, curiosity is a two way street

434
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:38.079 A:middle L:90%
. You need to maintain a curious, curious stance

435
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:42.190 A:middle L:90%
according to what's going on and what that new person

436
00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:45.490 A:middle L:90%
knows whether they are here or coming from some other

437
00:28:45.490 --> 00:28:49.779 A:middle L:90%
place. So that's part of that constant evolution of

438
00:28:49.789 --> 00:28:55.859 A:middle L:90%
the uh huh because I think, uh, oh

439
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:59.640 A:middle L:90%
, recently we've had, well, we have a

440
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.079 A:middle L:90%
lot of new people here and they have not had

441
00:29:03.089 --> 00:29:06.920 A:middle L:90%
prior connections, but that happens quite frequently that we

442
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:11.490 A:middle L:90%
have people coming. And you know what, what

443
00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:14.710 A:middle L:90%
transpires, what they bring to the table, what

444
00:29:14.710 --> 00:29:19.150 A:middle L:90%
we bring to the table. Yeah. Okay.

445
00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:25.019 A:middle L:90%
Anything else you want to? No, you did

446
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:26.559 A:middle L:90%
. Great. Thank you so much. Okay.

447
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:29.460 A:middle L:90%
Okay, Good.