WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.840 --> 00:00:05.059 A:middle L:90% we are recording. All right. So, um 2 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:08.900 A:middle L:90% , tell me your relationship to the to the college 3 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:14.460 A:middle L:90% of Okay, I I had gone to school. 4 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.750 A:middle L:90% Yeah. Corcoran Art School of Art University in the 5 00:00:18.750 --> 00:00:22.000 A:middle L:90% in university. Then I studied with all subside. 6 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.670 A:middle L:90% Keen in Paris for a year. Met my wife 7 00:00:25.670 --> 00:00:28.589 A:middle L:90% on the way to Paris On the boat on the 8 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:31.750 A:middle L:90% way of Yeah. So we we caught it. 9 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:34.549 A:middle L:90% We didn't live together. We caught it in Paris 10 00:00:35.740 --> 00:00:43.259 A:middle L:90% . And so then, uh, proposed or in 11 00:00:43.259 --> 00:00:46.579 A:middle L:90% Paris Anyway, she accepted. So But she said 12 00:00:46.590 --> 00:00:49.140 A:middle L:90% we can't get married until you have a job. 13 00:00:49.149 --> 00:00:51.729 A:middle L:90% My father would not approve of me. Married somebody 14 00:00:51.729 --> 00:00:57.829 A:middle L:90% without a job. So I started writing, setting 15 00:00:57.829 --> 00:01:02.770 A:middle L:90% off those days that gobs and gobs of schools because 16 00:01:02.770 --> 00:01:04.980 A:middle L:90% I knew it had to teach in a college anyway 17 00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:10.700 A:middle L:90% , So we, uh, I was actually offered 18 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:12.090 A:middle L:90% a job in New Hampshire, but she didn't want 19 00:01:12.090 --> 00:01:15.500 A:middle L:90% to live in New England. She did. She's 20 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:17.849 A:middle L:90% a southern, and she just didn't think she'd like 21 00:01:17.859 --> 00:01:19.640 A:middle L:90% living in New England, which I'll be lovely to 22 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.469 A:middle L:90% live, but she did. So I was offered 23 00:01:23.469 --> 00:01:26.900 A:middle L:90% this job here at Okay. We call it V 24 00:01:26.900 --> 00:01:30.260 A:middle L:90% P. R. At that Virginia Polytechnic Institute. 25 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.370 A:middle L:90% And so I got the job and came down here 26 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:36.939 A:middle L:90% . We stayed, and every time I would get 27 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:40.109 A:middle L:90% nibbles to go other places I had a father in 28 00:01:40.109 --> 00:01:42.049 A:middle L:90% law said, Oh, Dean, you don't want 29 00:01:42.049 --> 00:01:45.549 A:middle L:90% to move He said, This campus is so beautiful 30 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:47.250 A:middle L:90% . He said, I just loved it. Now 31 00:01:47.250 --> 00:01:49.269 A:middle L:90% that's the father in law persuaded me not to leave 32 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.549 A:middle L:90% Blacksburg. So I never did take any of the 33 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.140 A:middle L:90% job office I had outside of Blacksburg. So we 34 00:01:57.140 --> 00:01:59.359 A:middle L:90% stayed here. I thought we had 42 years, 35 00:02:00.739 --> 00:02:04.280 A:middle L:90% and I was brought here to teach sculpture to architects 36 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.560 A:middle L:90% . I was the first person to teach sculpture tech 37 00:02:07.740 --> 00:02:14.860 A:middle L:90% . I'm using tech. Thank you, everybody and 38 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:20.949 A:middle L:90% so. And my My first boss loved our click 39 00:02:20.949 --> 00:02:25.030 A:middle L:90% Kogel alcohol is named for clinical anyway, and we 40 00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:28.129 A:middle L:90% just got along nicely, you know? And he 41 00:02:28.139 --> 00:02:31.770 A:middle L:90% can, uh, he had me teaching everything on 42 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:34.590 A:middle L:90% earth. I mean, I taught art history, 43 00:02:34.590 --> 00:02:38.740 A:middle L:90% and I talked basic design and architecture. He was 44 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:39.689 A:middle L:90% really trying to turn into an arc tape. I 45 00:02:39.689 --> 00:02:45.849 A:middle L:90% wouldn't turn so and I thought drawing you name it 46 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.990 A:middle L:90% . And so then, uh, then we got 47 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:57.340 A:middle L:90% another department head. Who was Lynn Curry and Lynn 48 00:02:57.340 --> 00:02:59.270 A:middle L:90% just loved art. He would have loved being a 49 00:02:59.270 --> 00:03:01.389 A:middle L:90% painter. He loved art. So he pushed. 50 00:03:01.389 --> 00:03:05.229 A:middle L:90% I was doing all getting all these art courses going 51 00:03:05.229 --> 00:03:09.060 A:middle L:90% because people around the campus that want special art courses 52 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:14.300 A:middle L:90% for their students, a lot of people home economics 53 00:03:14.300 --> 00:03:19.409 A:middle L:90% and whatever anyway, so I would create these and 54 00:03:19.409 --> 00:03:23.280 A:middle L:90% you courses and had no problem in getting them through 55 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.939 A:middle L:90% because Lynn Curry just loved all the new articles is 56 00:03:27.949 --> 00:03:32.360 A:middle L:90% being offered, and at one time, Lynn was 57 00:03:32.370 --> 00:03:35.620 A:middle L:90% out of town or something. I know somebody was 58 00:03:35.629 --> 00:03:39.060 A:middle L:90% temporarily running the pop, and I won't use names 59 00:03:39.069 --> 00:03:43.199 A:middle L:90% , but he said, We'll just call everything architecture 60 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.400 A:middle L:90% . We don't own art in the catalog. So 61 00:03:46.409 --> 00:03:49.770 A:middle L:90% Lynn came in just at that time this got He 62 00:03:49.770 --> 00:03:51.509 A:middle L:90% said, We are going to have art in the 63 00:03:51.509 --> 00:03:53.849 A:middle L:90% catalog. We're not gonna name articles, his architecture 64 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:59.409 A:middle L:90% . So that saved art at that point was art 65 00:03:59.419 --> 00:04:02.819 A:middle L:90% Art was under the umbrella. Art was just that 66 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:05.780 A:middle L:90% art was taught in architecture. There were four of 67 00:04:05.780 --> 00:04:10.960 A:middle L:90% us that thought are all the architects that have joy 68 00:04:11.539 --> 00:04:15.490 A:middle L:90% , basic draw a year of drawing and then they 69 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:17.740 A:middle L:90% took water color and they you know they the early 70 00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:26.480 A:middle L:90% on the department here that the architectural heads thought it 71 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:29.660 A:middle L:90% was important that they have art. And that was 72 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.399 A:middle L:90% written in the crapper. Anyway, Uh, Lynn 73 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.189 A:middle L:90% Curry left. I went to Chicago and let's say 74 00:04:39.189 --> 00:04:41.829 A:middle L:90% you should never left. But he he was trying 75 00:04:41.829 --> 00:04:43.829 A:middle L:90% to get moved too fast. As soon as he 76 00:04:43.829 --> 00:04:46.579 A:middle L:90% left, we became a college of architecture because he 77 00:04:46.579 --> 00:04:49.899 A:middle L:90% had pushed. Leonard pushed it that way. The 78 00:04:49.899 --> 00:04:54.959 A:middle L:90% department that way. And then he recommend Charles Purchase 79 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.360 A:middle L:90% . Coming Charles Perch. It was a very fine 80 00:04:58.139 --> 00:05:01.290 A:middle L:90% dean, but all for architecture, just and he 81 00:05:01.290 --> 00:05:06.060 A:middle L:90% was, uh, he was a delightful person anyway 82 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:10.079 A:middle L:90% , he and so we had all these guys. 83 00:05:10.089 --> 00:05:12.430 A:middle L:90% I built this curriculum and I said, Well, 84 00:05:12.430 --> 00:05:14.250 A:middle L:90% let's give a degree in art. Well, he 85 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:16.540 A:middle L:90% didn't want to give it in architecture. I had 86 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:19.480 A:middle L:90% to give it in the arts and sciences, So 87 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.199 A:middle L:90% it really meant a lot stiffer course with the kids 88 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.410 A:middle L:90% because the students, because they had to take all 89 00:05:26.410 --> 00:05:30.790 A:middle L:90% these basic arts and science courses that they would not 90 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.740 A:middle L:90% have to take if we'd had it in architecture anyway 91 00:05:32.750 --> 00:05:36.720 A:middle L:90% . So that's when there was moved, and for 92 00:05:36.730 --> 00:05:41.750 A:middle L:90% a while I was under I was under two deans 93 00:05:43.139 --> 00:05:46.329 A:middle L:90% in architecture and also in arts and Sciences. And 94 00:05:46.329 --> 00:05:51.970 A:middle L:90% then and then I guess he really did want art 95 00:05:51.970 --> 00:05:57.079 A:middle L:90% and architecture. And so they found some more space 96 00:05:57.089 --> 00:06:01.089 A:middle L:90% over and coins dining hall underneath, and at one 97 00:06:01.089 --> 00:06:04.060 A:middle L:90% point he thought he abused that for basic design. 98 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:08.240 A:middle L:90% But then he said no. He would take the 99 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.829 A:middle L:90% R studios in Cobo Hall for basic design and put 100 00:06:12.829 --> 00:06:15.759 A:middle L:90% me in my program over and Owens, which we 101 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:18.660 A:middle L:90% did. At that point, I moved into arts 102 00:06:18.660 --> 00:06:24.329 A:middle L:90% and Sciences. The problem when into our sense. 103 00:06:25.339 --> 00:06:29.589 A:middle L:90% And we we kept we did very well in arts 104 00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:32.879 A:middle L:90% and sciences as an art department, and it's so 105 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.920 A:middle L:90% interesting that when they broke up arts and Sciences, 106 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:39.100 A:middle L:90% that fact and I was no longer teaching. I 107 00:06:39.110 --> 00:06:44.339 A:middle L:90% retired in 92 but anyway, they voted to go 108 00:06:44.339 --> 00:06:47.500 A:middle L:90% into uh huh back into architecture, and Jack had 109 00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:50.660 A:middle L:90% given him the invitation. And so I was real 110 00:06:50.660 --> 00:06:54.600 A:middle L:90% pleased. A lot of people think I had something 111 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:56.449 A:middle L:90% to do with that, didn't but I'm glad to 112 00:06:56.449 --> 00:07:00.660 A:middle L:90% take the other because I was just thrilled that they 113 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:02.360 A:middle L:90% went back into architects because I think it's a good 114 00:07:03.339 --> 00:07:08.490 A:middle L:90% a combination. Yeah, I agree. And I 115 00:07:08.490 --> 00:07:11.259 A:middle L:90% think I guess this will be my next question. 116 00:07:11.740 --> 00:07:14.889 A:middle L:90% It seems from the research that I've done and talking 117 00:07:14.889 --> 00:07:17.269 A:middle L:90% to people, that when Burchard came in and he 118 00:07:17.269 --> 00:07:21.230 A:middle L:90% brought in Ferrari and they really changed the program, 119 00:07:21.339 --> 00:07:26.430 A:middle L:90% that the focus on things like drawing, being, 120 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.680 A:middle L:90% being part of the curriculum went away and just sort 121 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:30.790 A:middle L:90% of That's there. If you want it, you 122 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:33.399 A:middle L:90% should seek it. But it was, and that 123 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.600 A:middle L:90% seems like maybe well, he, Charles Birch had 124 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:42.660 A:middle L:90% actually wanted me to create art at the junior level 125 00:07:43.339 --> 00:07:45.980 A:middle L:90% and just have art to be available. Well, 126 00:07:45.980 --> 00:07:46.480 A:middle L:90% I didn't feel like that was any kind of a 127 00:07:46.490 --> 00:07:49.769 A:middle L:90% program, so let's really kept them. I got 128 00:07:49.769 --> 00:07:54.689 A:middle L:90% all trouble getting a real program. A real degree 129 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:56.850 A:middle L:90% started, and I just wanted to keep it and 130 00:07:56.850 --> 00:08:01.019 A:middle L:90% that we have a the school arts under Architects for 131 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:03.980 A:middle L:90% Salads Group. Yeah, I think that it makes 132 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:09.310 A:middle L:90% sense. I talked to Ray Cats as well about 133 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.069 A:middle L:90% this, and, uh, he did a lot 134 00:08:11.069 --> 00:08:13.680 A:middle L:90% for the department. He raised her unusual person, 135 00:08:13.689 --> 00:08:16.480 A:middle L:90% I'll tell you, but he really did a lot 136 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:20.579 A:middle L:90% for the park. He did a lot of people 137 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:24.779 A:middle L:90% , outstanding artists and stuff. And when when we 138 00:08:24.779 --> 00:08:26.250 A:middle L:90% had programs, he would bring in some of these 139 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:30.360 A:middle L:90% people. And so he really a lot of other 140 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:35.470 A:middle L:90% people just wasn't interested in teaching their classes and doing 141 00:08:35.470 --> 00:08:37.879 A:middle L:90% their own work and not not push the problem, 142 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.460 A:middle L:90% right? It a lot to push the program. 143 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:45.320 A:middle L:90% And it seems like he's, um, seems like 144 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.279 A:middle L:90% he would have fit in with that idea. Those 145 00:08:48.289 --> 00:08:50.480 A:middle L:90% ideas that were brought in by virtue or Ferrari seems 146 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.149 A:middle L:90% like he would have been a good partner to that 147 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:00.070 A:middle L:90% . But one thing he did say that I definitely 148 00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:03.730 A:middle L:90% felt going through the program was that there was no 149 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:05.549 A:middle L:90% what I think what ended up happening, especially when 150 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:09.940 A:middle L:90% it moved out. Architecture was that it just became 151 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:16.039 A:middle L:90% prohibitive for architecture students to study art, which is 152 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:18.389 A:middle L:90% so seemingly so, Yeah, which was really wrong 153 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:24.039 A:middle L:90% . But it happened. And, uh, let's 154 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.809 A:middle L:90% see, where are we? Um, Well, 155 00:09:26.809 --> 00:09:30.889 A:middle L:90% tell me about So you were hired under under Kogel 156 00:09:30.899 --> 00:09:33.929 A:middle L:90% . Tell me about that. Well, it was 157 00:09:33.929 --> 00:09:37.259 A:middle L:90% a very formal department at that time, All right 158 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.299 A:middle L:90% ? There were, You know, it was there 159 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:46.799 A:middle L:90% were four people in mechanical equipment for people in design 160 00:09:46.809 --> 00:09:50.210 A:middle L:90% for four people in our you know, it was 161 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:52.669 A:middle L:90% a very And then, uh, they had building 162 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:56.830 A:middle L:90% heat also introduced building instructions. But I only had 163 00:09:56.830 --> 00:10:00.730 A:middle L:90% one person for years in building construction that was built 164 00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:05.659 A:middle L:90% Favreau and he just loved it. He loved his 165 00:10:05.659 --> 00:10:09.330 A:middle L:90% build construction program. And but then Birch it brought 166 00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:16.409 A:middle L:90% in a friend of his into building instruction which upset 167 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:18.360 A:middle L:90% fibre because fibre really didn't have anything to do. 168 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.690 A:middle L:90% You don't really have to know all this. It's 169 00:10:22.690 --> 00:10:26.090 A:middle L:90% all interesting. I warn everybody that we're doing probably 170 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:30.500 A:middle L:90% a 30 to 40 minute film, and I'm interviewing 171 00:10:30.509 --> 00:10:35.169 A:middle L:90% probably 20 people. So, you know, a 172 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:37.460 A:middle L:90% couple of minutes, you'll get a pop. Maria 173 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:39.730 A:middle L:90% . Yeah, exactly. But it's for me. 174 00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:43.539 A:middle L:90% It's fascinating. I mean, I've done so much 175 00:10:43.539 --> 00:10:46.200 A:middle L:90% and it's been it's, you know, it's funny 176 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.110 A:middle L:90% . I find that, you know, life just 177 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:50.080 A:middle L:90% sort of seems to give you what you need when 178 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.750 A:middle L:90% you need it. And I got really a lot 179 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:58.220 A:middle L:90% of support for art during my career, which was 180 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:00.629 A:middle L:90% wonderful. You know, you still have I had 181 00:11:00.629 --> 00:11:03.049 A:middle L:90% to fight for certain things, but you still got 182 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:07.330 A:middle L:90% from people from, you know, like our new 183 00:11:07.330 --> 00:11:13.559 A:middle L:90% people. And they were very supportive and the dean 184 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.129 A:middle L:90% of home economics, Lara Harper, at one point 185 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:20.820 A:middle L:90% really saved our programs. We had a big meeting 186 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:24.659 A:middle L:90% about our court system. She told the president right 187 00:11:24.659 --> 00:11:28.879 A:middle L:90% at lad. And no uncertain terms. She needed 188 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.919 A:middle L:90% art for her students and that we had a good 189 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:33.330 A:middle L:90% program going in. No way it should be done 190 00:11:33.330 --> 00:11:37.129 A:middle L:90% away with. But it was nice to have champions 191 00:11:37.129 --> 00:11:39.960 A:middle L:90% because I feel like a missioner being here in a 192 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:46.059 A:middle L:90% again engineering school when I had been in, you 193 00:11:46.059 --> 00:11:48.379 A:middle L:90% know, little arts now, did you Did you 194 00:11:48.379 --> 00:11:52.659 A:middle L:90% find that? I guess that's a really good point 195 00:11:52.139 --> 00:11:54.539 A:middle L:90% . And I hadn't really thought about so were you 196 00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:58.549 A:middle L:90% surprised? I mean, tell me about being hired 197 00:12:00.139 --> 00:12:03.649 A:middle L:90% . Well, as an artist under architecture. Well 198 00:12:03.139 --> 00:12:09.159 A:middle L:90% , Mr Kogel, Clint Kabul loved our. So 199 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.549 A:middle L:90% it was He was really supportive. So in and 200 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.080 A:middle L:90% I had to make a living. So that was 201 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.360 A:middle L:90% the main reason I was here. Was that like 202 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.480 A:middle L:90% , 11? Because I wanted to marry my wife 203 00:12:24.490 --> 00:12:30.110 A:middle L:90% , didn't marry and and then we and and Blacksburg 204 00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:31.860 A:middle L:90% is a lovely town for Children. Are kids just 205 00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:37.950 A:middle L:90% got they had good schools and, uh, met 206 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:39.570 A:middle L:90% bright people, you know, and it's and kind 207 00:12:39.570 --> 00:12:43.549 A:middle L:90% of he thought sculpture should be taught to architects. 208 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.590 A:middle L:90% Yeah, but it was, you know, and 209 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:52.330 A:middle L:90% then Lynn Curries, I said, was real supportive 210 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:54.440 A:middle L:90% of army. He just loved the fact that we 211 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.149 A:middle L:90% have the art program and Charles person. Never. 212 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.350 A:middle L:90% I mean, I like Charles Burton, but he 213 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.659 A:middle L:90% didn't want he didn't want the He wanted to have 214 00:13:05.659 --> 00:13:09.950 A:middle L:90% a bar house, school. He did more traditional 215 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:15.460 A:middle L:90% school. Yeah, and that's what they got, 216 00:13:15.470 --> 00:13:16.559 A:middle L:90% right? I mean, that's really what I mean 217 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.470 A:middle L:90% . And it seems like now things are kind of 218 00:13:20.470 --> 00:13:24.210 A:middle L:90% coming maybe a little bit full circle, I think 219 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:26.539 A:middle L:90% so. I think it's getting a little more formal 220 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:28.490 A:middle L:90% again, which I think at the college level is 221 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:33.899 A:middle L:90% good. And, uh but But I did like 222 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:35.360 A:middle L:90% Charles Burns. It's like, you know, I 223 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:41.250 A:middle L:90% didn't he he was an enemy by enemy. And 224 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:46.580 A:middle L:90% but that's what happened. So that's life. Tell 225 00:13:46.580 --> 00:13:52.100 A:middle L:90% me about how you feel about that interdisciplinary approach to 226 00:13:52.110 --> 00:13:56.240 A:middle L:90% architecture that the importance of sculpture and drawing I'm curious 227 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:00.450 A:middle L:90% to hear. Oh, uh, uh huh. 228 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.809 A:middle L:90% So many architects are knew personally that we're still we're 229 00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:09.610 A:middle L:90% a bid here. Take like the paint like they 230 00:14:09.610 --> 00:14:11.779 A:middle L:90% are like to do so I mean, but, 231 00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:16.049 A:middle L:90% uh, to me, like a friend of mine 232 00:14:16.049 --> 00:14:20.539 A:middle L:90% called the other day John Taylor Call me and cut 233 00:14:20.539 --> 00:14:22.049 A:middle L:90% . He gave me a little piece of sculpture and 234 00:14:22.049 --> 00:14:24.370 A:middle L:90% heat. He was an Arctic, but he'd love 235 00:14:24.370 --> 00:14:28.730 A:middle L:90% sculpture and this call to them looked a lot like 236 00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:33.220 A:middle L:90% that. And he called Riesling and was just so 237 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:37.159 A:middle L:90% complimentary. And he's kept. He's had an architectural 238 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.299 A:middle L:90% practice, but he's kept doing sculpture and he's teaching 239 00:14:41.299 --> 00:14:45.700 A:middle L:90% sculpture in the community college and that we'll see. 240 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:48.549 A:middle L:90% I mean, it means that I really hadn't influenced 241 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:50.399 A:middle L:90% . Well, let's talk about that. You started 242 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.860 A:middle L:90% talking about that before we started filming, and I'm 243 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:56.429 A:middle L:90% very interested in that. Tell me about teaching. 244 00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:58.230 A:middle L:90% I mean, it would have rewarding, you know 245 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.279 A:middle L:90% ? Well, at the time I started, I 246 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.159 A:middle L:90% was There were a lot of X g is here 247 00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:07.360 A:middle L:90% , So a lot of us, some of our 248 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.340 A:middle L:90% students were a year older than I was. And 249 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:13.049 A:middle L:90% that was interesting because, you know, I was 250 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.929 A:middle L:90% only 28 when I started teaching here, and I 251 00:15:16.929 --> 00:15:18.980 A:middle L:90% had a lot of students that were a little older 252 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:22.909 A:middle L:90% when I first came here and they were just great 253 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:22.929 A:middle L:90% , you know? And they have been in the 254 00:15:22.929 --> 00:15:26.360 A:middle L:90% service and I've been in the service, you know 255 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:30.960 A:middle L:90% ? And so we had a really, you know 256 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:35.669 A:middle L:90% , in fact, went by Squires Hall when I 257 00:15:35.669 --> 00:15:39.860 A:middle L:90% was first here and I heard the thing I like 258 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:41.049 A:middle L:90% . I like dancing. My wife likes dancing, 259 00:15:41.049 --> 00:15:45.200 A:middle L:90% and I heard that they invited faculty to these dances 260 00:15:45.210 --> 00:15:48.279 A:middle L:90% they had. So I went up to this German 261 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:52.659 A:middle L:90% desk and Squires Hall. I said, You know 262 00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:54.649 A:middle L:90% , I'd like you to invite me towards one of 263 00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:56.700 A:middle L:90% your dances or some of your dances, and this 264 00:15:56.700 --> 00:15:58.759 A:middle L:90% young man said, Well, we can't have all 265 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.659 A:middle L:90% freshmen. We can invite all freshmen to our dancers 266 00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:08.950 A:middle L:90% . That's what I'm teaching, but also looked young 267 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:15.059 A:middle L:90% . I was blonde. Yeah, and slide. 268 00:16:15.129 --> 00:16:18.750 A:middle L:90% You know, that makes you look young. Opinion 269 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:23.970 A:middle L:90% 28 young to be. It's funny, I think 270 00:16:23.980 --> 00:16:27.190 A:middle L:90% . I think you know, like what? You 271 00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:30.090 A:middle L:90% know what my grandfather did by 28 inches? You 272 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:34.470 A:middle L:90% know what, people? It's a different different mindset 273 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.460 A:middle L:90% , right? 28 was You were You were an 274 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.590 A:middle L:90% adult. You're right. Well, you don't have 275 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:42.970 A:middle L:90% . You know, I've had a lot of education 276 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.220 A:middle L:90% and three years in the army in C B, 277 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.059 A:middle L:90% I and Indian China, which I love being an 278 00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:56.000 A:middle L:90% Indian and loving and China and wonderful. I would 279 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.580 A:middle L:90% think as an artist for yeah, I just But 280 00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:03.149 A:middle L:90% I didn't like being in the Army. I mean 281 00:17:03.149 --> 00:17:07.859 A:middle L:90% , that's like being a slave. I mean, 282 00:17:07.869 --> 00:17:08.690 A:middle L:90% you have. No, I mean, you're not 283 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:11.690 A:middle L:90% . I mean, yeah, yeah. No, 284 00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:15.380 A:middle L:90% I I I respect. I respect people deserve a 285 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:18.809 A:middle L:90% great deal, but I can't imagine, you know 286 00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:22.329 A:middle L:90% , But I like I like the cadet corps. 287 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.289 A:middle L:90% I like the cadets. And because I had when 288 00:17:25.289 --> 00:17:27.200 A:middle L:90% I first came here, all of the students work 289 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.440 A:middle L:90% . It is. And, uh, except for 290 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:34.930 A:middle L:90% those GS had come back and and always, And 291 00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:37.349 A:middle L:90% then, you know, they were nice and polite 292 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:41.720 A:middle L:90% and very good. Dude, I mean, just 293 00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:44.890 A:middle L:90% very, very never miss clients, you know? 294 00:17:44.890 --> 00:17:48.279 A:middle L:90% I mean, uh, and it was almost an 295 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:49.369 A:middle L:90% old boy's school when I came here, But where 296 00:17:49.369 --> 00:17:52.960 A:middle L:90% some girls always an architecture, there were some girls 297 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.480 A:middle L:90% . One of the things I'm curious about since I 298 00:17:56.490 --> 00:18:02.690 A:middle L:90% think, you know, you're uniquely uniquely in a 299 00:18:02.690 --> 00:18:07.039 A:middle L:90% position to talk about really a nice span of time 300 00:18:07.210 --> 00:18:14.200 A:middle L:90% , the through the through the program and you've already 301 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:15.589 A:middle L:90% touched on some of these things But I'm really curious 302 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:22.670 A:middle L:90% how, through your eyes how you view the the 303 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.960 A:middle L:90% changes over the years through the program through art and 304 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.359 A:middle L:90% architecture. Well, like even though the program changed 305 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:33.369 A:middle L:90% , I could tell you to have friends who architects 306 00:18:33.369 --> 00:18:37.490 A:middle L:90% . So, uh, you know, and we 307 00:18:37.490 --> 00:18:41.420 A:middle L:90% would have some good architects that came into our to 308 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:45.099 A:middle L:90% take art. Oh, they're all so we still 309 00:18:45.099 --> 00:18:48.170 A:middle L:90% had We were still in touch with architectural students, 310 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:52.740 A:middle L:90% which was nice, but do you feel like the 311 00:18:52.750 --> 00:18:56.930 A:middle L:90% the the inclusion of art in the curriculum produce better 312 00:18:56.930 --> 00:18:59.690 A:middle L:90% architects? I mean, are you willing to say 313 00:18:59.690 --> 00:19:00.920 A:middle L:90% something like that? Or how do you How do 314 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.849 A:middle L:90% you view that? I thought, well, the 315 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:10.849 A:middle L:90% in and teaching art when you had architectural students, 316 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.309 A:middle L:90% you didn't have to inspire them. Our temple students 317 00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:18.710 A:middle L:90% had this real nice design since so that just made 318 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:22.890 A:middle L:90% wonderful art students because you didn't have to teach them 319 00:19:22.890 --> 00:19:26.240 A:middle L:90% , designed you to stop them. Whatever it was 320 00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:29.420 A:middle L:90% , you know, sculpture. And but you didn't 321 00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:32.890 A:middle L:90% have to, uh, pump ideas into them at 322 00:19:32.890 --> 00:19:36.420 A:middle L:90% all. I mean, architects, basically a very 323 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:38.609 A:middle L:90% idea ridden. They can't happen. I mean, 324 00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:44.609 A:middle L:90% they just full of ideas, and so, you 325 00:19:44.609 --> 00:19:47.569 A:middle L:90% know, I mean, I've always I've always had 326 00:19:47.569 --> 00:19:49.309 A:middle L:90% a finest. And of course, I had out 327 00:19:49.309 --> 00:19:53.089 A:middle L:90% there in the world. Kids and students. I 328 00:19:53.089 --> 00:19:56.559 A:middle L:90% taught that we're architects, and a lot of them 329 00:19:56.569 --> 00:20:00.049 A:middle L:90% got me commissions. That's what things. It's just 330 00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:07.220 A:middle L:90% been wonderful relationship. Yeah, and And my very 331 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:11.000 A:middle L:90% best friends are architects. Yeah, well, I 332 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:12.819 A:middle L:90% know. I mean, I can tell you Go 333 00:20:12.819 --> 00:20:15.539 A:middle L:90% ahead. No, that's I was gonna say, 334 00:20:15.549 --> 00:20:19.170 A:middle L:90% from from people I've spoken to and things I've read 335 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:23.470 A:middle L:90% sculpture in particular for architects is a big thing. 336 00:20:23.470 --> 00:20:25.920 A:middle L:90% I think. You know, what I've heard is 337 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.319 A:middle L:90% that what is three dimensional and its buildings or three 338 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.559 A:middle L:90% dimensional or should be there. And they always talked 339 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.650 A:middle L:90% about an architect of all time, but architects being 340 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:42.299 A:middle L:90% paper architects or or real architects. And yeah, 341 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:45.759 A:middle L:90% I think you know, I think a lot of 342 00:20:45.339 --> 00:20:48.819 A:middle L:90% architects who just know about elevations and that's all that 343 00:20:48.829 --> 00:20:52.289 A:middle L:90% I mean, they can, but a real good 344 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:56.049 A:middle L:90% architects next three dimensionally like, you know, like 345 00:20:56.900 --> 00:20:59.450 A:middle L:90% , that beautiful thing that Frank all right, did 346 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.480 A:middle L:90% the museum in New York. It's just I mean 347 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:08.490 A:middle L:90% , that's just a gym Google, huh? Yeah 348 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:11.410 A:middle L:90% . Well, I think that's really right. I 349 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:15.490 A:middle L:90% mean, I think that it's interesting, too, 350 00:21:15.500 --> 00:21:18.450 A:middle L:90% because I think that's come full circle. I was 351 00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:22.660 A:middle L:90% talking to two the guy who runs a firm in 352 00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:26.019 A:middle L:90% Maine, and he said that they've had a lot 353 00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:30.160 A:middle L:90% of trouble getting hiring people who can think three dementia 354 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:33.099 A:middle L:90% . But he said he sees that sort of the 355 00:21:33.109 --> 00:21:34.299 A:middle L:90% newer hires. The younger people seem to be able 356 00:21:34.299 --> 00:21:37.319 A:middle L:90% to do it again. And so it's interesting how 357 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.589 A:middle L:90% that seems to be well, at one time. 358 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:42.910 A:middle L:90% Even here, Technic almost quit doing models, and 359 00:21:42.910 --> 00:21:48.809 A:middle L:90% then it came back, fortunately and right, you 360 00:21:48.809 --> 00:21:52.880 A:middle L:90% know it began to have, because without model building 361 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.349 A:middle L:90% , you can't see the three dimensional. They're just 362 00:21:56.349 --> 00:22:00.170 A:middle L:90% drawings. And they were all flat. Pretty much 363 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.869 A:middle L:90% , yeah, yeah, I think there's still a 364 00:22:04.869 --> 00:22:11.670 A:middle L:90% lot of that. So how about this, Um 365 00:22:12.339 --> 00:22:15.259 A:middle L:90% , can you since you've known all these people, 366 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:21.079 A:middle L:90% are there any real personalities that really stand out? 367 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:23.329 A:middle L:90% Anybody that you just got a big kick out of 368 00:22:23.329 --> 00:22:27.029 A:middle L:90% or people you found really fascinating cold? There's been 369 00:22:27.029 --> 00:22:30.579 A:middle L:90% so many that yes, it's like, say, 370 00:22:30.589 --> 00:22:33.980 A:middle L:90% who's your favorite artist? People ask me who's my 371 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:37.519 A:middle L:90% favorite, who's You can't do that because I just 372 00:22:37.529 --> 00:22:40.079 A:middle L:90% uh oh, I've had over the years, I 373 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.430 A:middle L:90% had so many good students, both in art and 374 00:22:42.430 --> 00:22:47.559 A:middle L:90% architecture. I mean, just just excellent students and 375 00:22:48.339 --> 00:22:51.119 A:middle L:90% what I really enjoy. I enjoyed the students. 376 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:52.839 A:middle L:90% All my life has to do I enjoy have a 377 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.369 A:middle L:90% young man that works for me. Now, as 378 00:22:55.369 --> 00:22:57.650 A:middle L:90% in building construction, Well, he's just a gym 379 00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:02.240 A:middle L:90% , just, you know, Uh huh. I 380 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.119 A:middle L:90% like young people and, uh, young people who 381 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:07.559 A:middle L:90% will work. I don't like lazy young people, 382 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.109 A:middle L:90% but in general, we didn't have lazy students in 383 00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:15.859 A:middle L:90% architecture. You're not a few, but not many 384 00:23:17.539 --> 00:23:21.670 A:middle L:90% , cause it just doesn't work. They've got to 385 00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:25.460 A:middle L:90% produce, so they can't do it. Yeah. 386 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:29.750 A:middle L:90% Yeah, I think I learned that in film school 387 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.920 A:middle L:90% , this idea that, you know, somehow you're 388 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:33.759 A:middle L:90% going to be inspired, and it's just going to 389 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.509 A:middle L:90% come out and yeah, you got to put in 390 00:23:37.509 --> 00:23:44.670 A:middle L:90% the hours. Well, I'm trying to think of 391 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.900 A:middle L:90% anything else. You know, I guess the main 392 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:52.220 A:middle L:90% thing that I'm really interested in Is this those earlier 393 00:23:52.220 --> 00:23:56.299 A:middle L:90% years where that you were really helping to create the 394 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:59.970 A:middle L:90% program. Ah, so maybe can you talk a 395 00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:03.460 A:middle L:90% little bit about your collaboration with with COBOL and your 396 00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:07.519 A:middle L:90% collaboration with Curry to sort of help shape. Well 397 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.380 A:middle L:90% , then I think about, you know, there 398 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.670 A:middle L:90% are other department heads they want certain courses for. 399 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.480 A:middle L:90% I can't begin to tell you all the things I 400 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:18.859 A:middle L:90% had to teach. I mean, it's unreal. 401 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.730 A:middle L:90% Uh, like I had to create an industrial design 402 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:30.049 A:middle L:90% course and for one of the great ones and Mm 403 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:32.160 A:middle L:90% . And that was fun to do because I had 404 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.319 A:middle L:90% always I loved all those, you know, the 405 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.150 A:middle L:90% Raymond Loewy period and that kind of thing. And 406 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.460 A:middle L:90% I had grown up with that, and I grew 407 00:24:40.460 --> 00:24:41.980 A:middle L:90% up in Washington, D. C. So I 408 00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:47.759 A:middle L:90% had a cosmopolitan life. I mean, and teachers 409 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.599 A:middle L:90% I had We're just wonderful because they had been uh 410 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.829 A:middle L:90% huh. In all these various things. So I 411 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.349 A:middle L:90% really I was you know, I came up When 412 00:24:57.349 --> 00:25:00.200 A:middle L:90% you in sculpture, we're supposed to do everything in 413 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.480 A:middle L:90% sculpture. So you did clay sculpture by some sculpture 414 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.160 A:middle L:90% card. Well, you know, you had to 415 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.700 A:middle L:90% do everything. And now people specialized. You know 416 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:12.579 A:middle L:90% , the big thing there is no How about someone 417 00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:15.309 A:middle L:90% ? So I just I only do this only, 418 00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:18.950 A:middle L:90% but I didn't come up that way, which was 419 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.789 A:middle L:90% really lucky for me because I could do some of 420 00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:26.200 A:middle L:90% these other courses and enjoy them. Like, you 421 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:32.180 A:middle L:90% know, you're still you're still sculpting. Still sculpts 422 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:34.640 A:middle L:90% piddling. But I love it. Go to my 423 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:38.420 A:middle L:90% studio every day and just do a little something Feed 424 00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:42.359 A:middle L:90% my cats And like that, I love this country 425 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.670 A:middle L:90% . I have 60 acres down in Valladolid. Wow 426 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.119 A:middle L:90% , It's a beautiful piece of property. Yeah, 427 00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:56.190 A:middle L:90% well, one thing that's become very clear to me 428 00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.039 A:middle L:90% , they're all the people I've interviewed over the years 429 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.529 A:middle L:90% , and people I've spoken to is Children very important 430 00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:07.759 A:middle L:90% in life having something that you absolutely love to do 431 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:15.289 A:middle L:90% . Oh, I feel blessed that because, you 432 00:26:15.289 --> 00:26:17.869 A:middle L:90% know, I know so many people when they were 433 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.019 A:middle L:90% tired. When they have to get out of that 434 00:26:21.029 --> 00:26:22.859 A:middle L:90% job, they don't have anything to do. But 435 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.200 A:middle L:90% that creates activity. We've got an artist or even 436 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:27.970 A:middle L:90% Arthur. You're just an artist forever. I mean 437 00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:30.210 A:middle L:90% , you can to think about it. It's just 438 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:36.359 A:middle L:90% our Did you say anything about the C. CAC 439 00:26:36.369 --> 00:26:41.049 A:middle L:90% for the people who came right? Well, what 440 00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:44.880 A:middle L:90% about it? We we we belong, uh, 441 00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:48.710 A:middle L:90% aren't part belong to Southeastern College Heart Conference and we 442 00:26:48.710 --> 00:26:56.990 A:middle L:90% gave we actually hosted that at one point and no 443 00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:59.450 A:middle L:90% , you know, on this. And they came 444 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:02.740 A:middle L:90% to the campus. And often these people tell me 445 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:06.529 A:middle L:90% it's the best conference we ever had. And now 446 00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:08.140 A:middle L:90% we could go to cities for the most part because 447 00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:11.339 A:middle L:90% I was one of the ones that said, I'm 448 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:12.549 A:middle L:90% a past president of C. K. I said 449 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:15.779 A:middle L:90% , you know, I'm in the account in the 450 00:27:15.779 --> 00:27:18.519 A:middle L:90% country, and I think we ought to have these 451 00:27:18.529 --> 00:27:21.400 A:middle L:90% meetings in in a city. So you see, 452 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:25.519 A:middle L:90% museums, the real art and not just campus are 453 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:27.900 A:middle L:90% , you know, And so we started going more 454 00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:33.089 A:middle L:90% to cities. Fuck. A big Don't know anything 455 00:27:33.089 --> 00:27:37.440 A:middle L:90% about the Francis Collection. That was That was broken 456 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.660 A:middle L:90% . I mean, they end up going bankrupt, 457 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.359 A:middle L:90% but it was a bit, but who came? 458 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:48.359 A:middle L:90% Fine. Came Clement Greenberg was here. No. 459 00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:51.309 A:middle L:90% Well, Ray cast had a lot to do with 460 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:55.059 A:middle L:90% that conference. It had a lot to bringing people 461 00:27:55.059 --> 00:27:57.759 A:middle L:90% in. And that's one reason was such a class 462 00:27:59.140 --> 00:28:02.910 A:middle L:90% . What the hell was close here? I don't 463 00:28:02.910 --> 00:28:06.180 A:middle L:90% think so. You know, who are the two 464 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:07.660 A:middle L:90% or three artists that came that did have national? 465 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:14.180 A:middle L:90% Uh, Adam, that's antique. I mean, 466 00:28:14.180 --> 00:28:18.430 A:middle L:90% that's all right. Today, Ray can tell you 467 00:28:18.430 --> 00:28:22.359 A:middle L:90% a lot. Yeah. You better be careful. 468 00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:27.259 A:middle L:90% I can tell you. Mhm. Yeah, when 469 00:28:27.259 --> 00:28:30.170 A:middle L:90% I'm off camera, I'll tell you a story. 470 00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:34.119 A:middle L:90% Okay. Uh, so are you. So Yeah 471 00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:37.549 A:middle L:90% , so you never You never preferred a medium for 472 00:28:37.549 --> 00:28:41.170 A:middle L:90% sculpture. You sort of kept. Well, I've 473 00:28:41.170 --> 00:28:41.920 A:middle L:90% always done a little bit of remember things. You 474 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.559 A:middle L:90% can look around this out of the sea. Uh 475 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:51.099 A:middle L:90% , I love carving. I like carving. And 476 00:28:51.109 --> 00:28:55.269 A:middle L:90% I, President Fraser was in the art department, 477 00:28:56.539 --> 00:28:59.440 A:middle L:90% and he got me to do these realistic sculptures of 478 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.640 A:middle L:90% these athletes that he was interested in. So I 479 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.289 A:middle L:90% did a lot of them. And so I kept 480 00:29:06.289 --> 00:29:12.029 A:middle L:90% that realism going through because of that of that sort 481 00:29:12.029 --> 00:29:17.630 A:middle L:90% of pushed by Fraser to do these and but the 482 00:29:17.630 --> 00:29:19.440 A:middle L:90% other side key and I really learned to do Portrait 483 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.410 A:middle L:90% is I mean, he really as abstract as he 484 00:29:23.410 --> 00:29:26.670 A:middle L:90% was, he still wants you to know how to 485 00:29:26.670 --> 00:29:33.359 A:middle L:90% see and create from line. So he was I 486 00:29:33.369 --> 00:29:36.660 A:middle L:90% did a portrait of Rosina when I was his student 487 00:29:37.339 --> 00:29:41.539 A:middle L:90% , but he really pushed you into Ah, you're 488 00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:47.609 A:middle L:90% seeing you know, And I had and I had 489 00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:52.220 A:middle L:90% all through from grade school always have wonderful our teachers 490 00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:57.000 A:middle L:90% just and I had from the time I was in 491 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.940 A:middle L:90% the first grade, I had teachers who recognized that 492 00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:02.359 A:middle L:90% I was going to be a lot. I mean 493 00:30:02.369 --> 00:30:04.849 A:middle L:90% , recognized I had some talent, so always got 494 00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:07.440 A:middle L:90% pushed. And it was wonderful, you know, 495 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.559 A:middle L:90% and helped. That is wonderful, because I think 496 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.119 A:middle L:90% , yeah, not to get off on a tangent 497 00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:17.890 A:middle L:90% . And education in this country has changed a great 498 00:30:17.890 --> 00:30:22.019 A:middle L:90% deal. I mhm You're very lucky to have that 499 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:25.569 A:middle L:90% experience. Yeah, I don't I think there's so 500 00:30:25.569 --> 00:30:26.680 A:middle L:90% many people that, as I said, they don't 501 00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.569 A:middle L:90% want to have anything to do with something other than 502 00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:33.690 A:middle L:90% one little thing. And that's made education a little 503 00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:37.970 A:middle L:90% more narrow. You're right. They get to be 504 00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:42.009 A:middle L:90% solved. Two special on. And you you carved 505 00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:45.640 A:middle L:90% co goal. Right? Uh, I did a 506 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.970 A:middle L:90% sculpture of kogel and sculpture. Lynn Curry and I 507 00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:56.559 A:middle L:90% did a sculpture of castles and castle Palestinians and, 508 00:30:59.710 --> 00:31:03.130 A:middle L:90% well, you did the Walter Gropius, and supposedly 509 00:31:03.130 --> 00:31:07.190 A:middle L:90% he never he never sat by any other sculpture or 510 00:31:07.190 --> 00:31:11.890 A:middle L:90% any other or any paint. Sculpt or not Sculpture 511 00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:14.680 A:middle L:90% . Yeah, well, he, uh Gropius was 512 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:18.349 A:middle L:90% fascinating. President Fresh got me to go up to 513 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.740 A:middle L:90% and they asked us out to the house and we 514 00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:25.670 A:middle L:90% have a picture of us in the five Children on 515 00:31:25.670 --> 00:31:30.640 A:middle L:90% their outside upstairs. Cambridge, Cambridge. Anyway, 516 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:34.660 A:middle L:90% so prince and end, I took that sculpture stand 517 00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:37.769 A:middle L:90% . I took the clay and took everything, too 518 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.900 A:middle L:90% . And I had photographs of groping. So I 519 00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:44.349 A:middle L:90% got a I got a start on from the photographs 520 00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:45.769 A:middle L:90% , but I like to work from the river. 521 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:48.329 A:middle L:90% So I met with him. He took one of 522 00:31:48.329 --> 00:31:52.990 A:middle L:90% his that is studio. He took one of the 523 00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:57.809 A:middle L:90% rooms and made that into my sculptures video Just cleaned 524 00:31:57.809 --> 00:32:00.650 A:middle L:90% it out. And I had to stand in the 525 00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:04.619 A:middle L:90% end, my claim and he sat for me and 526 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:07.460 A:middle L:90% it was it was fascinating because I would I worked 527 00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:10.130 A:middle L:90% hard on that portrait, but I really should have 528 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.170 A:middle L:90% kept the dire. But I just couldn't, right 529 00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:15.319 A:middle L:90% . I was tired. I went interested and for 530 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:17.490 A:middle L:90% the stories he told me you were just a life 531 00:32:17.490 --> 00:32:22.019 A:middle L:90% about his boyhood and I had had a rather large 532 00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:24.509 A:middle L:90% problem. It knows that I had I had a 533 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:29.769 A:middle L:90% fairly prominent and his wife and he got me too 534 00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:30.619 A:middle L:90% . Take it down. Something he thought was too 535 00:32:30.619 --> 00:32:34.950 A:middle L:90% large. So I took it down and his wife 536 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.809 A:middle L:90% came in and she said, Oh, you know 537 00:32:37.809 --> 00:32:40.170 A:middle L:90% , for final critiques, catch to his nose is 538 00:32:40.170 --> 00:32:44.259 A:middle L:90% too small. She is that you've got to make 539 00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:47.410 A:middle L:90% that big nose. I was so pleased. I 540 00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:52.859 A:middle L:90% redid the nose to the the proportion that it was 541 00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:57.670 A:middle L:90% . And he didn't say a word when she mhm 542 00:32:58.339 --> 00:33:00.930 A:middle L:90% and they had a guest book and he had to 543 00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:05.359 A:middle L:90% sign the guest book and all the page opposite my 544 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:09.480 A:middle L:90% page was Miro's pain. Yeah, signed right next 545 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:14.880 A:middle L:90% to Mr Miro. Is that interesting? That's amazing 546 00:33:14.890 --> 00:33:17.480 A:middle L:90% . What I'll tell you for me. Making film 547 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.039 A:middle L:90% , making documentaries. The best part of it is 548 00:33:22.049 --> 00:33:24.170 A:middle L:90% the people that I've gotten to meet like you. 549 00:33:24.910 --> 00:33:29.170 A:middle L:90% Well, uh, cold will. Also, uh 550 00:33:29.740 --> 00:33:34.279 A:middle L:90% , there was a desire. Uh huh. Comforts 551 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:39.740 A:middle L:90% of designs. Design school outside in Aspen, Colorado 552 00:33:39.819 --> 00:33:42.910 A:middle L:90% . And Koga warned me to go. So I 553 00:33:42.910 --> 00:33:45.730 A:middle L:90% did go out there, and, uh, it 554 00:33:45.730 --> 00:33:49.109 A:middle L:90% was for our He really wanted me to be an 555 00:33:49.109 --> 00:33:53.150 A:middle L:90% architect. Way I was, but so I went 556 00:33:53.150 --> 00:33:55.900 A:middle L:90% out because I did teach basic design. So you 557 00:33:55.900 --> 00:34:00.460 A:middle L:90% want me to have some design experiences? The doctor 558 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:05.819 A:middle L:90% was the one I selected to be with. Oh 559 00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:08.760 A:middle L:90% , it was a joy. Yeah, the Arctic 560 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:13.190 A:middle L:90% and, you know, to have a class with 561 00:34:13.190 --> 00:34:16.349 A:middle L:90% him every day and and I just love his work 562 00:34:16.349 --> 00:34:19.460 A:middle L:90% . Anyway, I'm just crazy about his work. 563 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.989 A:middle L:90% And you can tell this house has a touch of 564 00:34:22.989 --> 00:34:27.360 A:middle L:90% offer in. And it was just a joy. 565 00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.829 A:middle L:90% Just the sheer joy. 10 days, a class 566 00:34:31.829 --> 00:34:36.050 A:middle L:90% with Lord. And then I met fascinating people, 567 00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:38.010 A:middle L:90% you know, they're architects, for the most part 568 00:34:38.019 --> 00:34:40.739 A:middle L:90% , but from all of the countries that were there 569 00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:44.949 A:middle L:90% . And it was a wonderful experience, and we 570 00:34:44.949 --> 00:34:46.860 A:middle L:90% stayed and I fell in love with the area. 571 00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:51.059 A:middle L:90% So we spent two something. Santa Fe. Okay 572 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:53.760 A:middle L:90% . I looked around Aspen. Couldn't find anything very 573 00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:00.550 A:middle L:90% suitable for family on within my me and Sylvia Raney 574 00:35:00.739 --> 00:35:02.559 A:middle L:90% . So when I went over to Santa Fe and 575 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.619 A:middle L:90% found a house in Santa Fe and Rosina came out 576 00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:13.579 A:middle L:90% with two Children was three Children anyway, and we 577 00:35:13.579 --> 00:35:15.329 A:middle L:90% lived in center site for summer. That was a 578 00:35:15.329 --> 00:35:20.090 A:middle L:90% wonderful experience. Okay, I have to hear more 579 00:35:20.090 --> 00:35:22.849 A:middle L:90% about this because nature is one of my one of 580 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.170 A:middle L:90% my favorite architects. He's inspired me a great deal 581 00:35:25.179 --> 00:35:28.469 A:middle L:90% , so Oh, my God. I just love 582 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.469 A:middle L:90% . I mean, I just see him right now 583 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.349 A:middle L:90% . and, uh, I just fell in love 584 00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:36.849 A:middle L:90% with it. So what can you share any? 585 00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:39.480 A:middle L:90% This is for me. Can you share anything? 586 00:35:39.489 --> 00:35:45.190 A:middle L:90% Did you recall from lessons things that he told you 587 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:49.530 A:middle L:90% that we're really stick with you? Well, the 588 00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:52.170 A:middle L:90% main thing I remember is the sliding glass doors, 589 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:58.050 A:middle L:90% but, you know, he promoted and the idea 590 00:35:58.050 --> 00:36:01.139 A:middle L:90% of a lot of light and sing out, you 591 00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:05.920 A:middle L:90% know, having outside Come in. He promoted that 592 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:07.909 A:middle L:90% kind of thing. What? This house. It 593 00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:12.460 A:middle L:90% was as a result, any. But it was 594 00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:15.250 A:middle L:90% just a joy getting to know this great architect, 595 00:36:15.929 --> 00:36:17.329 A:middle L:90% and he was just a trash. I had studied 596 00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:22.199 A:middle L:90% with Zach King in Paris, and that was a 597 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:29.110 A:middle L:90% wonderful experience because he's a very famous stopped, But 598 00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:31.780 A:middle L:90% then to have this class with this very famous architect 599 00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:36.829 A:middle L:90% and whose whose work I just adored, I think 600 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.019 A:middle L:90% , uh, Frank Lloyd Wright I liked, but 601 00:36:39.019 --> 00:36:43.159 A:middle L:90% I didn't adore Frank Lloyd Wright, like our door 602 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:46.960 A:middle L:90% door, a daughter in his clean lines and and 603 00:36:47.730 --> 00:36:52.369 A:middle L:90% I just I mean, he just wow, and 604 00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:54.449 A:middle L:90% he had a marvelous personality. I mean, just 605 00:36:55.329 --> 00:36:58.670 A:middle L:90% , you know, he could He could just get 606 00:36:58.670 --> 00:37:00.019 A:middle L:90% you to do anything he wants you to do. 607 00:37:00.019 --> 00:37:04.199 A:middle L:90% I mean, he just just a pleasure. They 608 00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.860 A:middle L:90% were really seminars that he was giving to us. 609 00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:09.519 A:middle L:90% And we had a very small group, and it 610 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.719 A:middle L:90% was just wonderful. That was the best part of 611 00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:15.130 A:middle L:90% living in Los Angeles for me was getting to see 612 00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:20.489 A:middle L:90% his work. I mean, he I think he 613 00:37:20.489 --> 00:37:24.079 A:middle L:90% captured an idea of modernity better than Oh, I 614 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:28.760 A:middle L:90% do too. Yeah, well, I'm glad you 615 00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:32.489 A:middle L:90% like my my friend Arthur. I used I used 616 00:37:32.489 --> 00:37:39.340 A:middle L:90% to a lot of landscape lectures to landscape groups and 617 00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:42.579 A:middle L:90% a lot of them. I did, you know 618 00:37:42.579 --> 00:37:44.659 A:middle L:90% , sculpture in the landscape. And then, you 619 00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:46.539 A:middle L:90% know, that would be a target in general, 620 00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:50.840 A:middle L:90% with the culture. I used a lot of North 621 00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:52.349 A:middle L:90% Korea in it to say, You know, that 622 00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:58.070 A:middle L:90% you could just have grass is designed and steps could 623 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.670 A:middle L:90% be designed and you know you can getting from the 624 00:38:01.670 --> 00:38:06.099 A:middle L:90% grass into the house and going up and not just 625 00:38:06.099 --> 00:38:09.130 A:middle L:90% little steps with realm but long steps. And oh 626 00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:15.289 A:middle L:90% , I just love. Doctor used them constantly when 627 00:38:15.289 --> 00:38:20.469 A:middle L:90% I talked to these women about landscape. That's great 628 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.130 A:middle L:90% . Wow, that's a nice, wonderful experience. 629 00:38:23.190 --> 00:38:27.760 A:middle L:90% We'll see. And Cole gave me that experience he 630 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.449 A:middle L:90% woman and we drove. I drove out there. 631 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:34.230 A:middle L:90% I didn't have I mean, fly man anyway. 632 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.440 A:middle L:90% And I think getting much money for cooking there anyway 633 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:43.760 A:middle L:90% , Uh, the attack was never affluent in the 634 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.039 A:middle L:90% early years. Maybe they got a little more fluent 635 00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:50.329 A:middle L:90% now, but it's it's hard to get grants and 636 00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:52.739 A:middle L:90% art. It's hard to get any kind of grand 637 00:38:53.019 --> 00:38:57.150 A:middle L:90% , and they weren't any many grants and art. 638 00:38:57.150 --> 00:38:59.139 A:middle L:90% I mean, there were, You know, it's 639 00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:02.820 A:middle L:90% not a grant world, but we're like the scientists 640 00:39:02.849 --> 00:39:06.789 A:middle L:90% , you know, just not. Yeah, I 641 00:39:06.789 --> 00:39:09.949 A:middle L:90% think that's the push now towards more research and in 642 00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:17.380 A:middle L:90% architecture or about, you know, technology. Well 643 00:39:17.380 --> 00:39:19.980 A:middle L:90% , anything else you want to. I mean, 644 00:39:19.989 --> 00:39:22.650 A:middle L:90% I don't know. I've had such a full life 645 00:39:23.619 --> 00:39:27.739 A:middle L:90% . That's why it's it's hard that it's hard to 646 00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.130 A:middle L:90% . It's hard to stop, you know, there's 647 00:39:30.130 --> 00:39:34.289 A:middle L:90% so many things like that, Um, but specifically 648 00:39:34.289 --> 00:39:37.090 A:middle L:90% I guess, you know, for the for the 649 00:39:37.090 --> 00:39:42.840 A:middle L:90% film about the 50th anniversary of the college, um 650 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.440 A:middle L:90% , anything else you want to add about how it's 651 00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:51.769 A:middle L:90% evolved or changed, or I like the fact that 652 00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:55.800 A:middle L:90% it's coming back more like the architectural program I was 653 00:39:55.800 --> 00:40:01.190 A:middle L:90% in that is returning, believing that it is, 654 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:07.619 A:middle L:90% You know, because Birgit was of internationalist, shall 655 00:40:07.619 --> 00:40:08.829 A:middle L:90% we say, if you want. I mean, 656 00:40:09.210 --> 00:40:13.460 A:middle L:90% and he had a lot of foreign people come in 657 00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:16.800 A:middle L:90% to teach in architecture, and a lot of egos 658 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.449 A:middle L:90% got involved in his program, You know, the 659 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:28.139 A:middle L:90% drill. And it was it was interesting. And 660 00:40:28.610 --> 00:40:32.639 A:middle L:90% but he was a very dynamic person. And when 661 00:40:34.210 --> 00:40:37.269 A:middle L:90% ? Because when the building was being designed by Henry 662 00:40:37.269 --> 00:40:42.949 A:middle L:90% Shriver Birch, it took over, and he made 663 00:40:42.949 --> 00:40:45.480 A:middle L:90% it a virtual building. You don't have to touch 664 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:49.300 A:middle L:90% anything you don't want me to use. Just say 665 00:40:49.309 --> 00:40:52.909 A:middle L:90% I should tell you that that's interesting. Yeah, 666 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:57.500 A:middle L:90% but I would want people seeing me. All right 667 00:40:57.510 --> 00:40:59.239 A:middle L:90% , then I won't use. That's all You gotta 668 00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:01.440 A:middle L:90% say anything you don't really use to say mhm, 669 00:41:01.809 --> 00:41:06.389 A:middle L:90% don't use that. But you're a very attractive young 670 00:41:06.389 --> 00:41:07.280 A:middle L:90% man, and you have a very nice way of 671 00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:12.070 A:middle L:90% interviewing and you make me want it. Tell you 672 00:41:12.070 --> 00:41:16.630 A:middle L:90% things I shouldn't tell. Let's see it. Mhm 673 00:41:17.010 --> 00:41:19.929 A:middle L:90% . Yeah, well, you know, that's a 674 00:41:20.409 --> 00:41:25.230 A:middle L:90% that's the people don't understand that there is a art 675 00:41:25.710 --> 00:41:31.789 A:middle L:90% . The documentary filmmaking and the key is being interested 676 00:41:31.789 --> 00:41:36.219 A:middle L:90% in the people that your interview I couldn't make a 677 00:41:36.219 --> 00:41:39.199 A:middle L:90% film about about the subject that I wasn't extremely interested 678 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.219 A:middle L:90% in people who I wasn't thrilled to meet. I 679 00:41:42.219 --> 00:41:44.610 A:middle L:90% mean, it's wonderful to meet you and talk to 680 00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:49.579 A:middle L:90% you about that. And so you made me think 681 00:41:49.579 --> 00:41:52.909 A:middle L:90% of a question, though. Um, so in 682 00:41:52.909 --> 00:41:59.780 A:middle L:90% your opinion, um, because I I've studied the 683 00:41:59.789 --> 00:42:01.440 A:middle L:90% history now, too, a great deal. And 684 00:42:01.449 --> 00:42:05.059 A:middle L:90% there's a lot of people who feel that those burchard 685 00:42:05.059 --> 00:42:09.050 A:middle L:90% Ferrari days we're really the heyday of the architecture program 686 00:42:09.050 --> 00:42:13.010 A:middle L:90% . And you can see why, because of the 687 00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:15.119 A:middle L:90% people, it was exactly and it was the change 688 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.840 A:middle L:90% in the curriculum. But I'm what I'm very curious 689 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.590 A:middle L:90% about is sort of these eternal truths of architecture and 690 00:42:23.590 --> 00:42:28.199 A:middle L:90% art. So in your opinion, do you think 691 00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:30.849 A:middle L:90% that because you said that he goes and I think 692 00:42:30.849 --> 00:42:34.610 A:middle L:90% that's really a good way of saying it, that 693 00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:38.760 A:middle L:90% it becomes somehow becomes about you're a student of a 694 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:44.829 A:middle L:90% particular teacher versus your student of the discipline. And 695 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.809 A:middle L:90% do you think that there's just so truths that need 696 00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:53.309 A:middle L:90% to be taught versus you know? Well, I'll 697 00:42:54.699 --> 00:42:57.730 A:middle L:90% I can tell you some stuff and you cut that 698 00:42:57.730 --> 00:43:00.400 A:middle L:90% off. I'm not okay at all. The shadows 699 00:43:00.409 --> 00:43:02.269 A:middle L:90% . Okay. Well, if you don't have anything 700 00:43:02.269 --> 00:43:06.139 A:middle L:90% else you want to add to the well, I 701 00:43:06.139 --> 00:43:08.920 A:middle L:90% think I think that there when I came here, 702 00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:13.230 A:middle L:90% there were certain architects that were hired to teach architecture 703 00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:16.730 A:middle L:90% and they had started with certain architects and they wanted 704 00:43:17.300 --> 00:43:21.500 A:middle L:90% That could be it. I can tell you that 705 00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:24.030 A:middle L:90% way I can tell you some other stuff. I'm 706 00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:28.230 A:middle L:90% happy to cut it if you're happy to be done 707 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.519 A:middle L:90% . I don't think I've talked to love. Like 708 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:32.880 A:middle L:90% I said, you know, I can see you're 709 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:34.809 A:middle L:90% all things.